Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Lastcall]

19 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Who would care as long as the twitter and tumblr audience was happy?

It would be the last season of the show and it's what they've been doing for the last three seasons, anyway, and they could likely bring him in more for the final episodes.

And if he was working on something  else, his own fandom would be more than thrilled.

I know that I would be. For sure. 

That’s Dabb’s problem in a nutshell. He packed his writers room with sycophants who towed the line with his vision of Samernatural. Then twitter ate up what ever crap he fed them pumping his ego with how much  of a genius he is. Then it was 3 years of how great Mary is, how much Lucifer needed to be a regular character and how the Waywards need to be around more. He seemed to love his little bubble and getting to hang out with Jared and as soon as reality hit (Jensen getting fed up) he chose to blame everything on Jensen and Dean. I really hope people were paying attention to this train wreck and Dabb never gets work again.

[SueB]

51 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

That’s Dabb’s problem in a nutshell. He packed his writers room with sycophants who towed the line with his vision of Samernatural. Then twitter ate up what ever crap he fed them pumping his ego with how much  of a genius he is. Then it was 3 years of how great Mary is, how much Lucifer needed to be a regular character and how the Waywards need to be around more. He seemed to love his little bubble and getting to hang out with Jared and as soon as reality hit (Jensen getting fed up) he chose to blame everything on Jensen and Dean. I really hope people were paying attention to this train wreck and Dabb never gets work again.

Question on this post taken to BvJ

[catrox14]

SPN 14 landed on Netflix and I am rewatching all the Michael!Dean stuff and I am sooooo bitter and pissed about the show wasting all of it and handing it over to other characters.  Jensen was so good with him from the jump.   And yet they gave arguably the 2nd most important scene with Michael and Jack's discussion in The Spear to neither Jensen, nor Christian.  What a fucking waste.

Imagine Michael!Dean having that conversation with Jack, and ultimately end the season with Dean raising the gun to kill Jack in the finale. Far better set up and dramatic tension than what we got. 

I am so angry about this.  Forever bitter..... AARGGGHHHHH

[Pondlass1]

It's not some crazy conspiracy theory or pie in the sky - it's fairly obvious that the handling of the Michael Dean story was the impetus for Jensen's decision.  

I think Jared and Misha would've gone on longer.  But Jensen saw the writing (bad writing) on the wall.  Dabb was bored with Dean and Sam.  

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

It's not some crazy conspiracy theory or pie in the sky - it's fairly obvious that the handling of the Michael Dean story was the impetus for Jensen's decision.  

I think Jared and Misha would've gone on longer.  But Jensen saw the writing (bad writing) on the wall.  Dabb was bored with Dean and Sam.  

That’s the sad part of all of this, the show died from neglect and it didn’t have to. There were so many little things Dabb could have done to keep Jensen and the Dean fans happy but he dug his feet and refused to give us anything at all. He treated Jensen like he was the problem instead of Dabbs greatest asset. It’s like he blamed Jensen for stealing all the attention and preventing the “better” characters from taking off and getting their spin offs. If you look at 14x1 it looks like Dabb trying to spin off Supernatural without Dean. The Sam and friends show. 

Ive been to a few other boards and was glad to see they were picking up on the same things we have saying here (some since 12b). It’s clear the Michael story killed the show and Dabb has been scrabbling to salvage the storyline from 300 on.  I’m sure this dead horse storyline would have dragged on way past it’s expiration date throughout next year if Jensen didn’t pull the plug. 

I cant blame Jensen for it either. Part of me feels the loss for the minimum 40 episodes we lost because this show really could have gone to season 20 but what would we really have gotten. Mary would have stuck around until season 19, there’s no doubt about that. Nick would still be around and probably would have gotten the chance to beat Dean to near death. Dabb would keep re-running the Michael/Lucifer fight until he got it right (Spoiler, he never would). Dean would continue killing less monsters until he didn’t kill any at all. Jensen’s main function would be to prop up the writer’s favorite pets in the hopes of rubbing off some of his popularity. In the end we would have a show written for the 20 or so Twitter tweens Dabb only seems to care about. 

All goes back to the CW, they could have saved this in 12b when the writing was on the wall but they didn’t. I’m sure they are ecstatic they were able to squeeze out 3 more years but they were too short sighted to see the 2 to 5 seasons they could have gotten beyond that. So now we are faced with the real possibility that next season could taint the show as a whole. Worst case scenario is it hurts the series as badly as How I met your Mother hurt theirs.

[FlickChick]

@Lastcall. Great post - although very sad. As I said in another thread, Dabb managed to kill the CW's cash cow. I also believe that Jensen was the initiator of S15 being the last. My guess is that he waited until the formal announcement of full season renewal from the CW, and then began the process of letting people know what the group had already discussed. I believe that discussion began after filming the end of his involvement in the Michael storyline. Or who knows, maybe even before that when the writing, as you say, was on the wall with Dabb treating the stars like extras. 

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

@Lastcall. Great post - although very sad. As I said in another thread, Dabb managed to kill the CW's cash cow. I also believe that Jensen was the initiator of S15 being the last. My guess is that he waited until the formal announcement of full season renewal from the CW, and then began the process of letting people know what the group had already discussed. I believe that discussion began after filming the end of his involvement in the Michael storyline. Or who knows, maybe even before that when the writing, as you say, was on the wall with Dabb treating the stars like extras. 

It looks to me like an abrupt change happened that caused a course change during the writing of Ouroboros. The ending is off... everything from Dean waking up onwards... and of course Jack killing Michael like that doesn't match up with the ending of Nihilism at all. So it is an abrupt course change. I would guess that it reflects the writers finding out that the show was ending in season 15 between Nihilism being shot and Ouroboros, necessitating the script being changed to get rid of Michael and then later Lucifer and Nick quickly. Up until then they were setting up another Apocalypse with our favorite flavors. The news of the last season did appear to be sprung on the writers as well as the fans.

[Lastcall]

36 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

It looks to me like an abrupt change happened that caused a course change during the writing of Ouroboros. The ending is off... everything from Dean waking up onwards... and of course Jack killing Michael like that doesn't match up with the ending of Nihilism at all. So it is an abrupt course change. I would guess that it reflects the writers finding out that the show was ending in season 15 between Nihilism being shot and Ouroboros, necessitating the script being changed to get rid of Michael and then later Lucifer and Nick quickly. Up until then they were setting up another Apocalypse with our favorite flavors. The news of the last season did appear to be sprung on the writers as well as the fans.

If you are right then it’s even better the show is ending. I couldn’t take another Michael/Lucifer fight. Do the current writers have any original thoughts at all? There were 14 seasons of unexplored stories. Do a fae season or a Pagan season. Even if they can’t come up with anything new...just do Ragnarok. There’s a season right there.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Lastcall

[Castiels Cat]

13 hours ago, Lastcall said:

If you are right then it’s even better the show is ending. I couldn’t take another Michael/Lucifer fight. Do the current writers have any original thoughts at all? There were 14 seasons of unexplored stories. Do a fae season or a Pagan season. Even if they can’t come up with anything new...just do Ragnarok. There’s a season right there.

They wasted Norse mythology. Well they wasted most mythology already. Those ships sailed.

Michael was there and Nick was running around with a hard on for Lucifer. Those two would be fighting sooner or later.

Everything about the Jack saves all seems pretty slapdash from the end of Ouroboros onwards. I do not doubt that Jack was eventually going to help. He kept saying I want to help. Nor do I doubt that he would lose his soul and go dark.  I do doubt the entire superduperspeshulJackykinsarc whiplash arc we received in record time which may have been the worst writing ever. I am totally with Michael. This powerless kid with a half drained soul should not have been able to do it... worst lol canon ever written. How did consuming the grace work when consuming grace didn't previously? Lol canon...

This all seems like a sudden course change.

I really hope J2 are being diplomatic and they really do have a say in next season. Otherwise... meh.

My guess is that Jensen made his mind up after 300. That was disappointing. it was a weak motw episode that used a magic pearl to provide some nice character beats and even that was ruined by a horrible attempt to riff on previous alternate reality classics as well as Dean's OTV storyline, the profound bond. and original bamf moment of ganking Zachariah in the 100 episode Point of No Return. 

Only the family character beats worked imo. The rest felt cheap.

The 300th episode deserved to be more.

I imagine the entire family might resurrect for the final season... for the fans. It is all for the fans unfortunately rather than for the story.

[Castiels Cat]

Don't know where to post this. FB Deanaholics I think just posted that Jensen is in talks to be Batman in the Reeves film. I find no reference online with a quick Google so I do not know where this is coming from. 

I had wondered whether something along these lines was up. He has been offered and/or short listed for zo many top roles which he has lost out on because of Supernatural...

???

He really should have been Star Lord. Pratt is just not very good imo. Jensen would have rocked it and could have held his own with the A-list Avengers, something Pratt cannot do per Infinity Wars and Endgame in which Hemsworth and Bautista act the pants off him.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[FlickChick]

Well, I for one, am not interested in watching Dabb hosting a re-do of classic episodes from the early seasons, complete with classic villains. I've already watched that show - time and time again. So if that is where he plans on taking the show, and it's not going to be reversed in some manner in the premiere of S15, I probably won't bother with it. Just tune in to see the finale. I'm still praying to Real God that Dabb is out because no matter who we end up with, the choice has to be better.

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Well, I for one, am not interested in watching Dabb hosting a re-do of classic episodes from the early seasons, complete with classic villains. I've already watched that show - time and time again. So if that is where he plans on taking the show, and it's not going to be reversed in some manner in the premiere of S15, I probably won't bother with it. Just tune in to see the finale. I'm still praying to Real God that Dabb is out because no matter who we end up with, the choice has to be better.

I agree. I have fond memories of the early years and I don’t want Dabb’s “vision” to ruin rewatch potential. I actually got a handful of coworkers and my boss hooked on the show. She’s on season 7, another is on season 5 and another is finishing up season 4. When they ask for spoilers for what the current storyline is I just say “don’t ask” because it’s so far removed from where they are and I’m afraid of turning them off of the show entirely.

[Lastcall]

On 5/6/2019 at 11:34 AM, Castiels Cat said:

They wasted Norse mythology. Well they wasted most mythology already. Those ships sailed.

Michael was there and Nick was running around with a hard on for Lucifer. Those two would be fighting sooner or later.

Everything about the Jack saves all seems pretty slapdash from the end of Ouroboros onwards. I do not doubt that Jack was eventually going to help. He kept saying I want to help. Nor do I doubt that he would lose his soul and go dark.  I do doubt the entire superduperspeshulJackykinsarc whiplash arc we received in record time which may have been the worst writing ever. I am totally with Michael. This powerless kid with a half drained soul should not have been able to do it... worst lol canon ever written. How did consuming the grace work when consuming grace didn't previously? Lol canon...

This all seems like a sudden course change.

I really hope J2 are being diplomatic and they really do have a say in next season. Otherwise... meh.

My guess is that Jensen made his mind up after 300. That was disappointing. it was a weak motw episode that used a magic pearl to provide some nice character beats and even that was ruined by a horrible attempt to riff on previous alternate reality classics as well as Dean's OTV storyline, the profound bond. and original bamf moment of ganking Zachariah in the 100 episode Point of No Return. 

Only the family character beats worked imo. The rest felt cheap.

The 300th episode deserved to be more.

I imagine the entire family might resurrect for the final season... for the fans. It is all for the fans unfortunately rather than for the story.

I was lamenting ways Dabb could have gone instead of where he could go in the future because we all know Dabb would have just recycled old Supernatural episodes for however long J2 would let him. If they were out of ideas they should have just ripped off other shows instead of trying to out do better Supernatural storylines.

There was potential for a Pagan god storyline. With Heaven so weak the pagans could have seen the opportunity to run the world again. They wanted Speight back so he could have been in the same amount of episodes as Loki. It could have been all the pantheons fighting for control or they could focus on one (like Baldur’s death triggering Ragnarok). 

There was so much squandered potential from 12. They could have explored the Cas/Crowley buddy cop dynamic more which would have been way better then the constant Crowley/Lucifer power struggle story. Then there was getting rid of Mick and Eileen both of who had great chemistry with Sam. Instead they went with trying to make Cas Sam’s new best friend. The BMoL story could have led into a great story line of a Monster/hunter war with the Monsters uniting against unified hunters. Have TFW fighting mixed groups Vampires with Werewolves, Shapeshifters with Wraiths and the big bad Monster that organized it all. 

They could have a real consequence from the cosmic implications deal break when Cas killed Billie. It could have cracked open the powerful magic the Leprechaun talked about. TFW facing a threat of fairy creatures and witch wizard power boosts. 

Limitless wasted potential for more Michael/Lucifer drama and another Gabriel redemption arc. Well...maybe another time down the road.

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Limitless wasted potential for more Michael/Lucifer drama and another Gabriel redemption arc. Well...maybe another time down the road.

My only - only - hope, if they go with the awful idea of villainous Chuck, is that they would also undo Michael's 'death' and have him ally with the Winchesters (through Dean) to defeat him. Jensen would get what he was robbed of with Ourobouros, Dean/Jensen fans would also get what so many lamented, and it would be a real twist to actually have the angels and the Winchesters on the same side. Hell, power up the Boy King for Sam, too - give them both something meaty to sink their teeth into for the final season. But please, for the love of Mike (sorry, never gonna say love of Chuck again - Chuck can FOAD), do NOT make the guys play second fiddle to the NougatBaby in this, their last hurrah. PLEASE!

[Katy M]

51 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

do NOT make the guys play second fiddle to the NougatBaby in this, their last hurrah. PLEASE!

I'll sign off on this part.  But, no, I don't want Dean!Michael! fighting evil Chuck!God!  I'm stilling hoping that it turns out he was an impostor.  At this point, I don't care if it makes any sense at all how they pull it off. 

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My only - only - hope, if they go with the awful idea of villainous Chuck, is that they would also undo Michael's 'death' and have him ally with the Winchesters (through Dean) to defeat him. Jensen would get what he was robbed of with Ourobouros, Dean/Jensen fans would also get what so many lamented, and it would be a real twist to actually have the angels and the Winchesters on the same side. Hell, power up the Boy King for Sam, too - give them both something meaty to sink their teeth into for the final season. But please, for the love of Mike (sorry, never gonna say love of Chuck again - Chuck can FOAD), do NOT make the guys play second fiddle to the NougatBaby in this, their last hurrah. PLEASE!

I think villainous Chuck paints Michael in a sympathetic light. Lucifer too. Joining forces with those two seems kind of obvious since Billie AND the Empty appear to be on board. 

Michael already stated that he has it out for Chuck. They just need to convince him to lock him up instead and make Michael his jailer via the MoC perhaps... nah. That would be on Jack probably. Only he can resist the MoC.

Whatever. I think a super team seems likely.

That Boy King stuff was utter nonsense... it is a perfect example of just how not good Kripke was. It was never explained. It did not match up at all with the psi kids Battle Royale really. It didn't lead to anything. He was the definition of throwing stuff at the wall... see Revolution.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Lastcall]

I have my own theory of how we got in this mess.

On Dabbs side, he stocked the writers room with inexperienced writers that he could control when he got Showrunner. The only people he had no power over were Singer and the duo. Dabb wanted the Sam show while the Duo wanted Pellegrino back. So in season 12 they tried to recreate everything while killing or destroying everything from the past (Joshua’s “Hi! Oops I’m dead”) to be edgy. When 12 bombed they got desperate and tried to bring back the fans by literally resurrecting everybody ,even weird ones like Naomi, so they could get their Spin off in season 13. Season 14 they were just pissed off at everyone so they decided to keep pushing spin offs no matter what Pedowitz said. 

On Jensens side, I think he wrote off 12 as a new show runner trying to find their feet. He gave everyone the benefit of the doubt out of respect for Carver. In Season 13, I believe J2 were ok with becoming support characters because everyone was united behind the goal of Wayward Sisters and keeping friends employed. When the spin off failed I’m sure Jensen thought the focus would shift back to Sam and Dean and he was sold a bill of goods from Dabb dangling the Michael story so he signed on for 2 more years. Now comes 14, Dabb won’t talk to him and seems to think Dean is hurting the show. At some point he found out there was no plan for Michael and pulled the plug. Dabb originally was the sole writer for 300 but had to get help when JDM came on. That was the moment Jensen was done with the show. After that the interns had to rush in and help salvage the rest of the season because Dabb never planned on that happening. 

I want to believe J2 had a meeting with the WB to salvage this mess. I think they were given some power to keep Dabb from destroying everything so the show could go on in the future. At the least there is a movie being developed and they may plan on coming back in a few years for limited series on the streaming platform. If I’m right then Pellegino is gone so his salary can be redirected to a truly epic series finale. Jacks still around because he’s cheaper and can help with J2 days off. I’m not losing hope until I see the May upfronts and the convention panels. 

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I'll sign off on this part.  But, no, I don't want Dean!Michael! fighting evil Chuck!God!  I'm stilling hoping that it turns out he was an impostor.  At this point, I don't care if it makes any sense at all how they pull it off. 

I would sign off on Michael! Dean and Samifer vs Chuck

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

If I’m right then Pellegino is gone so his salary can be redirected to a truly epic series finale. J

I wish this was so.  I know that con guest lists really don't mean anything but so far both Pellegrino and Alex Calvert have been invited to every con in 2020.  They usually only do that with regulars.  So I think Lucifer  and or Nick is coming back. 

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/7/2019 at 4:13 PM, Lastcall said:

I have my own theory of how we got in this mess.

On Dabbs side, he stocked the writers room with inexperienced writers that he could control when he got Showrunner. The only people he had no power over were Singer and the duo. Dabb wanted the Sam show while the Duo wanted Pellegrino back. So in season 12 they tried to recreate everything while killing or destroying everything from the past (Joshua’s “Hi! Oops I’m dead”) to be edgy. When 12 bombed they got desperate and tried to bring back the fans by literally resurrecting everybody ,even weird ones like Naomi, so they could get their Spin off in season 13. Season 14 they were just pissed off at everyone so they decided to keep pushing spin offs no matter what Pedowitz said. 

On Jensens side, I think he wrote off 12 as a new show runner trying to find their feet. He gave everyone the benefit of the doubt out of respect for Carver. In Season 13, I believe J2 were ok with becoming support characters because everyone was united behind the goal of Wayward Sisters and keeping friends employed. When the spin off failed I’m sure Jensen thought the focus would shift back to Sam and Dean and he was sold a bill of goods from Dabb dangling the Michael story so he signed on for 2 more years. Now comes 14, Dabb won’t talk to him and seems to think Dean is hurting the show. At some point he found out there was no plan for Michael and pulled the plug. Dabb originally was the sole writer for 300 but had to get help when JDM came on. That was the moment Jensen was done with the show. After that the interns had to rush in and help salvage the rest of the season because Dabb never planned on that happening. 

I want to believe J2 had a meeting with the WB to salvage this mess. I think they were given some power to keep Dabb from destroying everything so the show could go on in the future. At the least there is a movie being developed and they may plan on coming back in a few years for limited series on the streaming platform. If I’m right then Pellegino is gone so his salary can be redirected to a truly epic series finale. Jacks still around because he’s cheaper and can help with J2 days off. I’m not losing hope until I see the May upfronts and the convention panels. 

There is actually a through storyline for Dean from God saying you are the firewall and Mary's resurrection to him saying yes to Michael throughout seasons 12 and 13. I wrote about it for WFB. It is the reason I was able to predict he was going to say yes to Michael so early with such certainty. I was 100% certain. They had laid the groundwork very well. The individual episodes were not great AT ALL!!! However they definitely laid down the bones of a Dean character arc. Unfortunately they totally dropped it this season when there needed to be the final payoff. There needed to be repercussions for saying yes to Michael. We needed to see Michael!Dean doing very bad things. Then we needed to see Dean overcome and grow as a character. 

What we did not need to see was Jack do everything. Again I enjoyed seeing the father -son  relationship and I enjoyed them toying with the Greek tragic roots of matricide and Vengeance plus the biblical sacrifice mumbo jumbo nonsense. But they screwed the proverbial cash pooch royally.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I wish this was so.  I know that con guest lists really don't mean anything but so far both Pellegrino and Alex Calvert have been invited to every con in 2020.  They usually only do that with regulars.  So I think Lucifer  and or Nick is coming back. 

That’s what I hope the upfronts clear up. If they really want to go epic then they need to cut the fat. Zombie hordes, demon armies and ghost effects cost money. Keeping Mark around as a regular is going to suck some of that money up. I think clearing Mary and Nick may be to repurpose that money for a more cinematic season 15. Everything would be much easier with only TFW and Jack. So if we find out Mark is still a regular then everything will probably reset and we will be in for a miserable finale season.

[Zipper]

I've given some thought to your many excellent ideas for what to do and not do in the final season, and here are my wishes: (1) any and all incarnations of Lucifer go away in the first episode, and stay away; (2) if and only if the actual series finale holds a super fantastic ending for the brothers, and they need Lucifer to be atomized does MP come back; (3) Jack is either promptly dispatched for good, or shuffled off early on to only appear in very limited scenes if necessary to assist the brothers in ending whatever final battle(s) occur.  

Honestly, they could re-tread almost any amount of previous season stuff and/or characters and I could still be reasonably happy, if I don't have to deal with Pellegrino (fine actor, but I'm exhausted with his devil schtick and his Nick trauma) or Jack as a regularly- appearing pseudo Winchester. OTOH if Billie knocks some sense into his dumb toddler/soulless a$$, I could tolerate a tiny bit more. But not much.

The idea above (sorry, can't find it quickly) that both JA and JP get a chance to create whatever growth/development they want to see in their characters is excellent, and I am so hoping that TPTB allow this. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Zipper
ETA: So sorry, forgot what thread I was in, moving this to Ending.

[PAForrest]

15 hours ago, Lastcall said:

I have my own theory of how we got in this mess.

On Dabbs side, he stocked the writers room with inexperienced writers that he could control when he got Showrunner. The only people he had no power over were Singer and the duo. ... 

Season 14 they were just pissed off at everyone so they decided to keep pushing spin offs no matter what Pedowitz said. 

On Jensens side, I think he wrote off 12 as a new show runner trying to find their feet. He gave everyone the benefit of the doubt out of respect for Carver. In Season 13, I believe J2 were ok with becoming support characters because everyone was united behind the goal of Wayward Sisters and keeping friends employed. When the spin off failed I’m sure Jensen thought the focus would shift back to Sam and Dean and he was sold a bill of goods from Dabb dangling the Michael story so he signed on for 2 more years. Now comes 14, Dabb won’t talk to him and seems to think Dean is hurting the show. At some point he found out there was no plan for Michael and pulled the plug. Dabb originally was the sole writer for 300 but had to get help when JDM came on. That was the moment Jensen was done with the show. After that the interns had to rush in and help salvage the rest of the season because Dabb never planned on that happening......

Good speculation here that I think is backed by enough evidence. Like how everyone admits that Jensen is the one who got JDM to appear for 300, even though he clearly had no time to devote to the return. But JDM suddenly agreed to squeeze in the appearance even though there was originally no plan for John in 300.

Why did Jensen push JDM now? Very likely because he told JDM it would probably be his last chance as they had decided to pull the plug. So JDM was a lot more willing to make it work however he could even though he had no real time to do so. But he wanted to return before the end, wanted to do Jensen a favor, and even though the timing was bad, he had been told it was a last shot. Therefore the 300th was changed as much as it could be to bring in JDM for a day or two (at most).

I also agree that the Js were very supportive of a spin-off attempt, especially via Wayward, because what upset them the most about the show ending is the fact that the crew will have to find other jobs, even though that's the biz and this crew has had a far more stable situation than most in this business. Still, the Js always felt responsible for the employment of everyone working on the show all these years, and that's admirable and rare.

I also agree that Dabb was continuing to push for a spin-off this year starring Jack, but the CW wasn't biting.

Yet for as much as I blame Dabb for the declining quality of the show and his very open dislike of Dean that may or may not extend to Jensen, I also don't believe he is entirely to blame for all of it. I think Singer with his stuck in the 1950's way of showrunning mentality, and his good ol' boy nepotism by bringing his wife and her partner in to not just write but hold sway in the choice of stories, has had a lot to do with the steady decline. Maybe even more so because Singer still holds the top position over Dabb as he did with Carver, so it's hard to say how many of these terrible storytelling decisions were Singer's or Dabb's.

We do know that Singer is the one who really put the kibosh on most of Jensen's storylines - like Purgatory, Demon Dean, and I'm sure he had input into doing as little as possible with Michael. His wife/partner were the ones who were jonesing for Pellegrino to stay on the show, even though there was no logical reason for Nick's meatsuit to still be walking upright. But nepotism rules, as apparently did bad ideas. And now we are where we are.

[Lastcall]

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Good speculation here that I think is backed by enough evidence. Like how everyone admits that Jensen is the one who got JDM to appear for 300, even though he clearly had no time to devote to the return. But JDM suddenly agreed to squeeze in the appearance even though there was originally no plan for John in 300.

Why did Jensen push JDM now? Very likely because he told JDM it would probably be his last chance as they had decided to pull the plug. So JDM was a lot more willing to make it work however he could even though he had no real time to do so. But he wanted to return before the end, wanted to do Jensen a favor, and even though the timing was bad, he had been told it was a last shot. Therefore the 300th was changed as much as it could be to bring in JDM for a day or two (at most).

I also agree that the Js were very supportive of a spin-off attempt, especially via Wayward, because what upset them the most about the show ending is the fact that the crew will have to find other jobs, even though that's the biz and this crew has had a far more stable situation than most in this business. Still, the Js always felt responsible for the employment of everyone working on the show all these years, and that's admirable and rare.

I also agree that Dabb was continuing to push for a spin-off this year starring Jack, but the CW wasn't biting.

Yet for as much as I blame Dabb for the declining quality of the show and his very open dislike of Dean that may or may not extend to Jensen, I also don't believe he is entirely to blame for all of it. I think Singer with his stuck in the 1950's way of showrunning mentality, and his good ol' boy nepotism by bringing his wife and her partner in to not just write but hold sway in the choice of stories, has had a lot to do with the steady decline. Maybe even more so because Singer still holds the top position over Dabb as he did with Carver, so it's hard to say how many of these terrible storytelling decisions were Singer's or Dabb's.

We do know that Singer is the one who really put the kibosh on most of Jensen's storylines - like Purgatory, Demon Dean, and I'm sure he had input into doing as little as possible with Michael. His wife/partner were the ones who were jonesing for Pellegrino to stay on the show, even though there was no logical reason for Nick's meatsuit to still be walking upright. But nepotism rules, as apparently did bad ideas. And now we are where we are.

It was definitely a house divided. Singer has never done Dean any favors and Dabb had no power over him and the duo. This cursed us with Pellegrino and cost us Sheppard. I don’t think it’s a secret that Pellegrino hurt the show. It’s the closest Supernatural fans have to a consensus, everyone is tired of him. Dabb really lost control this season on multiple fronts everyone is writing for their own Mary Sues.

Quick theory, maybe Singer was secretly trying to make Jensen quit so he could retire without his wife being pissed off at him for losing her job.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Lastcall

[Casseiopeia]

12 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

I don’t think it’s a secret that Pellegrino hurt the show. It’s the closest Supernatural fans have to a consensus, everyone is tired of him.

So basically Dabb united the fandom.  

[7kstar]

16 hours ago, PAForrest said:

We do know that Singer is the one who really put the kibosh on most of Jensen's storylines - like Purgatory, Demon Dean, and I'm sure he had input into doing as little as possible with Michael. His wife/partner were the ones who were jonesing for Pellegrino to stay on the show, even though there was no logical reason for Nick's meatsuit to still be walking upright. But nepotism rules, as apparently did bad ideas. And now we are where we are.

Question really, since Jensen really respects Singer and often gives him praise, how do we know that Singer stopped all of Dean's major character arcs?  Asking as I don't know.

Now if Singer really wanted to retire and knew the one person that would be the force for pulling the plug... was Jensen then maybe it makes sense.

I also wonder if the real reason Jared had such an emotional reaction  to putting Dean in the box, was Jensen was bailing regardless of what the others wanted and Jared wasn't sure he was ready yet.  Of course, all of this is speculation as I don't know what is really true and I doubt we will ever hear the whole story at least for a time.

[PAForrest]

5 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Question really, since Jensen really respects Singer and often gives him praise, how do we know that Singer stopped all of Dean's major character arcs?  Asking as I don't know.

Now if Singer really wanted to retire and knew the one person that would be the force for pulling the plug... was Jensen then maybe it makes sense.

Yes, Singer has admitted it in interviews, and the excuse is always, 'can't have the brothers apart', yada, yada, yada.

I'm sure the guys still like and respect Singer in general by virtue of him having been with the show since the beginning. But we haven't heard any directorial or production praise of Singer in a long time. In fact, Jensen was very down with openly slamming the direction of the Michael/Luci marionette fight in the 13 finale - and that was all Singer. But Jensen didn't care, he called it out as being the crap it was.

Do we know if the CW/WB was forcing Singer to hang on? Doesn't really sound right - showrunners step down all the time without shows being canceled. They're more likely to be canceled because a lead actor or actors want to stop, like The Big Bang Theory when Jim Parsons was ready to call it quits.

Singer was supposedly set to retire years ago, but the whole Gamble debacle stalled that. Now I'm not sure he wanted to anymore, or cared one way or the other.

[Pondlass1]

There's a video somewhere on YouTube (I think) of a convention panel that Bob Singer did.  He was grilled quite a bit by fans but he often seemed at a loss to answer questions.  At one point he says "it's only a show". 

He might have been there from the beginning and I do believe he had the respect of Jensen in terms of directing abilities, but he really didn't have the passion.  And he saw the brothers as black and white - Sam was the smart one, Dean was the brawn.  The complexity of their relationship over the years was completely lost on both him.... and his wife.

[Lastcall]

13 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

There's a video somewhere on YouTube (I think) of a convention panel that Bob Singer did.  He was grilled quite a bit by fans but he often seemed at a loss to answer questions.  At one point he says "it's only a show". 

He might have been there from the beginning and I do believe he had the respect of Jensen in terms of directing abilities, but he really didn't have the passion.  And he saw the brothers as black and white - Sam was the smart one, Dean was the brawn.  The complexity of their relationship over the years was completely lost on both him.... and his wife.

At this stage Dean isn’t even allowed to be the brawn anymore.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

At this stage Dean isn’t even allowed to be the brawn anymore.

Although I think he got to kick more ass in the second half of this season than in the past three combined*.

*That's my impression - don't come at me with facts, LOL!

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Although I think he got to kick more ass in the second half of this season than in the past three combined*.

*That's my impression - don't come at me with facts, LOL!

Unfortunately, the only thing I can really remember from the second half of this Season was Jack, Jack and more Jack wooby-ing all over the place, maybe with some saintifying of Mary. But beyond that, were there fight or action scenes? I can`t remember any on the spot.

[Myrelle]

11 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I also wonder if the real reason Jared had such an emotional reaction  to putting Dean in the box, was Jensen was bailing regardless of what the others wanted and Jared wasn't sure he was ready yet.  Of course, all of this is speculation as I don't know what is really true and I doubt we will ever hear the whole story at least for a time

I've also had this thought. 

I've even wondered if Jensen first gave some serious thought to leaving when he saw the scripts for the first few episodes of this season and began to think that he'd been strung along yet again by another showrunner.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

I've also had this thought. 

I've even wondered if Jensen first gave some serious thought to leaving when he saw the scripts for the first few episodes of this season and began to think that he'd been strung along yet again by another showrunner.

I don't know the chain of events (obviously), but I would bet the farm that regardless of who knew what when, they both knew it was over when they filmed that scene. 

I just resist the idea that Jensen, or J2M for that matter, knew at the time of the 300th party. They all seemed so ready for more at that point, and even looking at it in hindsight, I don't get an 'faking it' vibe from it. Even Gen and Danneel were looking ahead. Maybe one day when Jensen is an old man, after a big movie career, he'll write an autobiography and tell us what really went down. 😉

Edited May 9, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know the chain of events (obviously), but I would bet the farm that regardless of who knew what when, they both knew it was over when they filmed that scene. 

I just resist the idea that Jensen, or J2M for that matter, knew at the time of the 300th party. They all seemed so ready for more at that point, and even looking at it in hindsight, I don't get an 'faking it' vibe from it. Even Gen and Danneel were looking ahead. Maybe one day when Jensen is an old man, after a big movie career, he'll write an autobiography and tell us what really went down. 😉

I am exceedingly curious about the whole thing and how it went down. I just can't help it and, mixed signals or not, I just can't help but think that at some point, Jensen knew that he was w/o a doubt, moving on even if it came as a surprise and a blow to JP and any others on the show or at the network.

Ausiello still hasn't said who that blind item was, has he?

I can honestly see Jensen wanting out, that early, but the network continuing to do everything in their power to keep the show going, including continuing trying to get him to change his mind.

And JDM making an appearance on the show, when he did(earlier than expected by no few)and how he did(through Jensen's personal friendship with him that lead him to actively intervene in order to make it happen-and so late within the season that the entire original episode had to be greatly revised)tells me that something more was going on BTS-and possibly a lot more than we could even imagine. 

I could very easily be wrong,  but I can't help but feel that this year's upfronts might include a surprise announcement or two that few in the fandom ever saw coming.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Myrelle
Revision

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I could very easily be wrong,  but I can't help but feel that this year's upfronts might include a surprise announcement or two that few in the fandom ever saw coming.

Like? A new showrunner? Another spin-off? A movie?

[Myrelle]

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Like? A new showrunner? Another spin-off? A movie?

Only my guesses here, but...

A new showrunner?-possibly IMO; and I SO! wish...

Another spin-off?-doubtful, IMO.

A movie?-again doubtful to me, at this point.

[Bobcatkitten]

If anything upfronts will give reporters a chance to ask more detailed questions about when and why the decision was made. 

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

If anything upfronts will give reporters a chance to ask more detailed questions about when and why the decision was made. 

I don't know if they'll ask, but I doubt if they'll get any other answer than "it seemed to be time" or something similar.  No one is going to blame or point fingers in public (at least, not at this time.)  

[Casseiopeia]

It seems like from past conversations that the J's wanted to negotiate shorter seasons. Much shorter than 20 episodes. A few years ago they talked about 6-10 eps.  This was right after Jared did Gilmore Girls.   I think he was excited about that kind of format where an entire season would focus around one story.  I have a feeling the CW said no. I think it might even have been an ultimatum.  Either they get shorter seasons or they walk. Looks like they walked.

Jared wants to retire and Jensen wants to move on to other projects.  Movies will be far less of a commitment than a 9 month television show. Supernatural has more than run it's course. They want to be done.

As far as a new showrunner I can't see it. Jensen even said that Dabb asked him who he would like to see back on the show next year.  I think we are stuck with what we have for the duration.  We have already lost a few key production people, at least one writer and possibly more.  Jim Michaels may be on the way out as well. I think next season is going to be a hot mess.

I really hate seeing the show end like this.

[Lastcall]

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Only my guesses here, but...

A new showrunner?-possibly IMO; and I SO! wish...

Another spin-off?-doubtful, IMO.

A movie?-again doubtful to me, at this point.

If they announce a new show runner who is anyone beside Yockey, I will be pissed.  That would mean they could have fixed this after 12 but chose not to.

There is no chance of a spin-off now that Dabb scorched the earth and poured a dump truck worth of salt into the soil. 

I believe there will be a future movie and J2 have agreed to it but I think the main focus will be hyping the final season and celebrating the past. After the show is gone and the hype dies down is when they will announce future movie plans.

What I’m hoping for is J2 possibly getting exec producer status, Berrens off the show for Doom Patrol, no Pellegrino and ALOT of old writers coming back to write a few farewell episodes especially Edlund. After that maybe J2 will share a little info from the storyboards.

[Lastcall]

6 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

It seems like from past conversations that the J's wanted to negotiate shorter seasons. Much shorter than 20 episodes. A few years ago they talked about 6-10 eps.  This was right after Jared did Gilmore Girls.   I think he was excited about that kind of format where an entire season would focus around one story.  I have a feeling the CW said no. I think it might even have been an ultimatum.  Either they get shorter seasons or they walk. Looks like they walked.

Jared wants to retire and Jensen wants to move on to other projects.  Movies will be far less of a commitment than a 9 month television show. Supernatural has more than run it's course. They want to be done.

As far as a new showrunner I can't see it. Jensen even said that Dabb asked him who he would like to see back on the show next year.  I think we are stuck with what we have for the duration.  We have already lost a few key production people, at least one writer and possibly more.  Jim Michaels may be on the way out as well. I think next season is going to be a hot mess.

I really hate seeing the show end like this.

I agree with everything you said but I think there is a good chance for at least a limited series on the streaming service. 8-13 is the norm for streaming which are the numbers J2 said they would be happy with. Jensen still seems excited about doing a run on the road in different environments so I’m sure the WB would give him that for a 8 to 10 episode commitment. J2 also seem very excited about a movie with a decent budget (40-60 million could be possible which is epic for horror). Jensen has also dropped a lot of hints that the show will go on after the finale and I don’t think that’s wishful thinking, I think he knows something. I’m going back to the next three weeks being a huge indicator for where this is all going. I’m still hopeful.

[Casseiopeia]

This is from Russ Hamilton who has been with the show since day1...kind of an odd thing to say on your way out...

He also said that the people replacing him were....ummm...replacing him. He didn't seem too impressed.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

I agree with everything you said but I think there is a good chance for at least a limited series on the streaming service. 8-13 is the norm for streaming which are the numbers J2 said they would be happy with. Jensen still seems excited about doing a run on the road in different environments so I’m sure the WB would give him that for a 8 to 10 episode commitment. J2 also seem very excited about a movie with a decent budget (40-60 million could be possible which is epic for horror). Jensen has also dropped a lot of hints that the show will go on after the finale and I don’t think that’s wishful thinking, I think he knows something. I’m going back to the next three weeks being a huge indicator for where this is all going. I’m still hopeful.

I'm wondering about streaming also.

The seasons are markedly shorter and my feeling for a long time has been that Jensen has wanted to spread his acting wings a little more  by taking on other roles.

Everyone could see how excited he was at the news of the MichaelDean sl, but the biggest indicator of this came out of that recent convention where he talked about having the opportunity to try out for roles like Batman and when he spoke of hoping to add his name to the "Chrises" where talk of plumb acting roles might be involved. 

Streaming might appeal to him as something that he could more readily fit into other plans/roles that he might have his eye on.

[ahrtee]

Never mind.

Edited May 10, 2019 by ahrtee

[Casseiopeia]

Just now, ahrtee said:

I will NOT miss the politically toxic environment that was all too often present

I don't know if he meant literal politics (I wondered how Mark Pellegrino and Misha Collins got along, being at polar opposites on the political scale) or just "office politics" that made things uncomfortable around the set.  

First I've ever heard of any dissent on the show.

[Lastcall]

28 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

First I've ever heard of any dissent on the show.

I’m sure the Hell they put Mark Shepard through extended to others in the production as well. I believe the cast got along great but I’m sure the cast and crew had to put up with a lot of crap coming from the home office.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

This is from Russ Hamilton who has been with the show since day1...kind of an odd thing to say on your way out...

He also said that the people replacing him were....ummm...replacing him. He didn't seem too impressed.

Oh wow.  He's been there for a long time. Isn't he the location scout primarily? Hmmmmmmmmmmm

[catrox14]

ETA:  It seems to go deeper.  Interesting remarks he made regarding Mark Sheppard/Crowley, too. 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

This is from Russ Hamilton who has been with the show since day1...kind of an odd thing to say on your way out...

He also said that the people replacing him were....ummm...replacing him. He didn't seem too impressed.

I've never seen that word used about SPN before from anyone. It's a little hard to believe.

[7kstar]

4 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

He also said that the people replacing him were....ummm...replacing him. He didn't seem too impressed. 

Toxic is a bad sign but it could sure explain a lot.  How much can be said without creating a career suicide is most likely another issue.   The creative fields are often who you know vs talent so spilling too much is deadly.  So it sounds like many have had enough and no longer care what will happen.  I guess another reason it is time to end the show.  All in all, this makes me sad.