Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Rhondinella]

Because there seems to have been some confusion about the scope of this thread, I'm posting this for clarification.  

 

This thread should be reserved for matters of religion, churches, church related-groups, and particular beliefs and practices that are  somehow related to the Duggars. It is not intended to be a catch all topic for any religious issue you want to talk about.  If you want to do that, please go to the Small Talk thread in this forum.  The mods will start deleting posts that are off-topic.

 

That's not to say that everything you say has to directly relate to something we've seen on the show.  Some examples:

 

Talking about the particular religious beliefs of the Duggars and how they compare or contrast with other beliefs (religious or otherwise)?  Fine.  Going into detailed discussion about those particular contrasting beliefs? Eh, possibly depending on how it's done.  Telling a story about your own personal religious experience?  Fine, AS LONG AS it is used as a brief illustration to support a point that is one topic.  If you just want to rant (or rave) about your past experiences, please do it elsewhere.

[Sew Sumi]

Mike Seewald's latest screed. I posted something in defense of my brother that won't see the light of day.  Don't let my discriminatory experience stop you from reading the crap that Binbob was raised to believe and rationalize in his narrow frame of the world.

 

 

http://seewalds.com/born-that-way/#more-223

Edited December 9, 2014 by Sew Sumi

[phoenix62]

Mike Seewald's latest screed. I posted something in defense of my brother that won't see the light of day.  Don't let my discriminatory experience stop you from reading the crap that Binbob was raised to believe and rationalize in his narrow frame of the world.

 

 

http://seewalds.com/born-that-way/#more-223

Thanks for the link. Looks like your comment is still there, and I'm sorry your brother had to suffer so (if he was the one who had to hide his true orientation for so long). I debated commenting on the Seewald character's silly blog, then deemed it not worth the attention.

Thankfully people like his ilk are starting to become the exception rather than the norm, but I fear we have a way to go

[Rhondinella]

http://seewalds.com/...t-way/#more-223

 

 

I can't decide if I should tell marleia that this exists or not On the one hand it's awful.  On the other hand, I do like it when angry @maraleia comes out. :-) 

[galax-arena]

After hearing about Pastor Steven Anderson - who became recently infamous for advocating for the execution of gay people in order to have an "AIDS-free Christmas" and says that women shouldn't even be allowed to say "amen" in church - someone like Seewald seems downright lovable. Like y'all know I'd usually be first in line to snark on Seewald's post, but I think right now I'm all spent and all out of fucks to give. 

 

(Conspiracy theory: People like Anderson are all a ruse to make people like the Duggars and Seewalds more palatable. Well played!)

[maraleia]

Rhondinella- I've already read the post and of course I'm seething that these people get a platform in any way shape or form to spout their beliefs. I am so mad that they spearheaded the repeal of the LGBT inclusive non-discrimination ordinance in Fayetteville, AR and won because they suck.

[galax-arena]

Can you imagine if the Duggars, Seewalds, Bates, et al, get their own tv channel. Today on cooking for fundies we will be making tator tot casserole.

There once was a time when they probably would have been welcomed on ABC Family, back when it was owned by Pat Robertson. But then the channel was sold to Fox and then Disney. The latter took a lot of glee in rebranding the channel into the godless heathen network it is today. 

[Sew Sumi]

After hearing about Pastor Steven Anderson - who became recently infamous for advocating for the execution of gay people in order to have an "AIDS-free Christmas" and says that women shouldn't even be allowed to say "amen" in church - someone like Seewald seems downright lovable. Like y'all know I'd usually be first in line to snark on Seewald's post, but I think right now I'm all spent and all out of fucks to give. 

 

(Conspiracy theory: People like Anderson are all a ruse to make people like the Duggars and Seewalds more palatable. Well played!)

The Pissing Preacher is the worst. I actually took a selfie in front of his strip mall church, then ran for my life in case he was inside and caught me. (He's in Tempe, AZ, not far from the Arizona State campus.) His wife's blog is also contemptible. 

[Rhondinella]

After hearing about Pastor Steven Anderson - who became recently infamous for advocating for the execution of gay people in order to have an "AIDS-free Christmas" and says that women shouldn't even be allowed to say "amen" in church - someone like Seewald seems downright lovable.

 

 

To be fair, what Seewald wrote is a rather moderate view of the subject for a conservative.  That's sad and all kinds of wrong, but his position is, honestly, about as close as you can get within fundie circles to accepting homosexuality outright.  I'm guessing that blog post angered some fellow fundies as much as, if not more than, it did LGBTQ supporters.

[Barb23]

Has anyone else seen the TLC Christmas commercial? They have the families from some of the shows wishing us Merry Christmas, Seasons Greetings, etc. On the 19 Kids & Counting clip, the family is standing in a group shot & there is a large Santa figure in front of Boob. He's probably about 3 ft tall. I was really surprised to see Santa there -another contradiction in their beliefs. Boob has said they don't get caught up in the commercialization of Christmas but rather celebrate the birth of Jesus. I've only seen the commercial a few times & the shows go by quickly but there is no way you can't miss Santa. He just doesn't look right standing with the Duggars. Maybe he took a wrong turn & ended up at the TTH.

[Sew Sumi]

Their CHRISTmas (yes, they went there) card is a stock picture of the latest family portrait, taken last spring before Jerick's wedding, with the usual sentiments. It just looks off because everyone is in short sleeves/summer clothing. 

[Barb23]

Their CHRISTmas (yes, they went there) card is a stock picture of the latest family portrait, taken last spring before Jerick's wedding, with the usual sentiments. It just looks off because everyone is in short sleeves/summer clothing.

Good grief. They probably just pulled the picture out of a pile. With their easy access to photographers, even Jinger, you think they would have put some thought into it & done something creative. I know Duggars and creative don't go together. Is there a link to the card?

On another note, when my niece was a baby, my sister took a picture of her dressed in her fancy bathing suit, sitting in a beach chair w/beach umbrella & used this as the picture on their Christmas card. The caption read something like "Wishing you Warm Christmas greetings from the Smiths" It was really cute. (Or precious)

[DamWrite]

Link to the Christmas card: http://www.eonline.com/news/606122/the-duggar-family-christmas-card-is-everything-and-more-see-it-here

 

I'm not sure when it was taken.  Ben and Jessa are awfully close for an unwed couple.  I think this might have been taken after the weddings.  Then again, what do I know?

[floridamom]

The Duggar family SPEAK of "leave and cleave" once married and that from that point on, the married couple is their own household, etc...blah blah. Well,, why then are the three married adult children included in their family's Christmas card? Josh, Jill and Jessa should be sending out their own Christmas cards. This family just doesn't know boundaries.

[Barb23]

Sew sumi - the Christmas card does look weird with the winter background & them wearing summer clothing. Of course the article had to mention Miracle Josie's birthday & no mention of Jordyn's, whose is this coming week. You can't even see Jill's baby bump, also mentioned in article, because one of the twins arms is blocking it.

[natyxg]

The Duggar family SPEAK of "leave and cleave" once married and that from that point on, the married couple is their own household, etc...blah blah. Well,, why then are the three married adult children included in their family's Christmas card? Josh, Jill and Jessa should be sending out their own Christmas cards. This family just doesn't know boundaries.

 

I doubt it's about boundaries. I think it's about publicity for the show. That's basically a cast photo.

Edited December 14, 2014 by natyxg

[Sew Sumi]

Link to the Christmas card: http://www.eonline.com/news/606122/the-duggar-family-christmas-card-is-everything-and-more-see-it-here

 

I'm not sure when it was taken.  Ben and Jessa are awfully close for an unwed couple.  I think this might have been taken after the weddings.  Then again, what do I know?

This was taken before they were even engaged. If you look closely, she's sitting in FRONT of him, not on his lap. Derick was photoshopped into the picture after the fact; it was taken during the week and posted to the Duggars' FB page before Derick was added in. At any rate, you can tell it's before their wedding because no touching. I want to say early June-ish, but I'm far too lazy to comb over the Duggars' page for the exact date. 

[Rhondinella]

Getting off the topic of religion here, guys.  To discuss the Christmas card/photo please take it to the media thread.

[Sew Sumi]

Taken from the Smuganna thread: 

 

 

 

Do you know what the cure for preeclampsia is? Termination of the pregnancy. You can wrap it up in flowery language like the baby was premature, but she was taken from the womb early. Abortion is termination of a pregnancy. The Frc is very much against all abortions even if the mothers life is in danger. The politics the Duggars push would result in the deaths of many mothers and Michelle would have been one. She had labor induced because the pregnancy was killing her and she her husband and her doctor discussed her options and made a choice between them. No politician was consulted. But please let's take that option away from others.

Interestingly, I looked up the Christian Reformed Church (aka Dutch Reformed), which my parents joined when I was a junior in high school. It's Calvinistic like the Seewalds, but states that abortion is accepted when the life of the mother is in danger. They did not distinguish between ectoptic pregnancy or a situation like Josie, but there you have it. In sum, Conservative Presbyterians like Doug Phillips, and his Vision Forum following, tacitly supported saving MEchelle's life, irregardless of the status of the fetus. Of course, this flies in the face of everything the Duggars and their political and religious pals purport. I wonder how many more of these types are "in the closet" with these types of views, especially given their propensity for the Quiverfull lifestyle?

Edited December 20, 2014 by Sew Sumi

[farmgal4]

I can't decide if I should tell marleia that this exists or not On the one hand it's awful.  On the other hand, I do like it when angry @maraleia comes out. :-)

Not sure what the article was about but the link given here goes to "page not found". :-(

[Micks Picks]

The one she buried was the one who died in the womb.  It had already lost it's heartbeat so was no longer alive.

[Sew Sumi]

And it was never viable outside the womb. 

[maraleia]

farmgal4- It was deleted by Michael Seewald just like everything he says that gets negative attention. Sorry you didn't get a chance to read it.

[Sew Sumi]

Well, he asked for it by self-promoting his blog all over social media. He deserves every bit of negative scrutiny he gets from we critics. Bigotry needs to be called out wherever it lives, especially when people hide behind religion to justify it. 

[Barb23]

I commented about why Boob had a Santa figure/decoration standing in front of him in the TLC Christmas commercial. I just saw it again & realized it's one of the kids dressed as Santa! Looks like their beliefs have swayed. (I really hope Santa brings Barb new glasses for Christmas.)

[Jellybeans]

(I really hope Santa brings Barb new glasses for Christmas.)

LOL! I hope he does too. :-)

[Barb23]

After watching Will & Zoe's (Little Couple) baptisms, I realized the Duggars have never mentioned or shown baptisms/christenings. Does the Duggar Church of the Warehouse religion (or Gothardism??) not believe in them or later on, confirmations? Since everything else in that family from births to deaths is televised, I don't think they adhere to that religious sacrament. Does anyone have some insider info?

[Jynnan tonnix]

I don't know, but it seems to me that many of the fundamentalist sects put much more importance on the individual making their own decision to accept Christ whenever they come of an age to do so (which seems to vary widely). Many of them don't believe in any baptismal ritual or sacrament for infants. Which makes me wonder...have we ever seen any of their kids go though any sort of "born again" moment in their lives?

[Rhondinella]

Yeah, if they do hold with a baptismal practice I guarantee it's of the "adult baptism" variety, not infant baptism.  Both are perfectly legitimate (to me, anyway, but I come from a tradition which practices both).  Now that you mention it, though, it is a bit odd that we've never seen or heard of any such thing that I can recall.

[Almost 3000]

Didn't JB dunk (baptize) Amy when they were in Israel?

[Sew Sumi]

Yes.

 

Changing gears a bit, Marci Dauer, Duggar sycophant (she posted a TON of pics from Jill's after-wedding party at the Duggar house that were found and forced to go underground until the moratorium for pics was lifted). Enywho, she posted a TON of pics from the "mission" trip on her FB wall. To say it was not more than a "gawk at the brown people" excursion would be giving it too much credit. Their idea of "saving" the "sweet" women was condescending at best. As Catholics, the locals would know the answer to the question: "Do you know where you are going when you die?" (Sound familiar? Steve Maxwell LOVES this one.) Some of the captions to the pics with locals made my blood boil. I know she's not a Duggar, but she's ATI, and worships the ground they walk on; I imagine she is pretty much saying what the Duggars could if they weren't in the public eye. 

[NausetGirl]

Yes.

 

Changing gears a bit, Marci Dauer, Duggar sycophant (she posted a TON of pics from Jill's after-wedding party at the Duggar house that were found and forced to go underground until the moratorium for pics was lifted). Enywho, she posted a TON of pics from the "mission" trip on her FB wall. To say it was not more than a "gawk at the brown people" excursion would be giving it too much credit. Their idea of "saving" the "sweet" women was condescending at best. As Catholics, the locals would know the answer to the question: "Do you know where you are going when you die?" (Sound familiar? Steve Maxwell LOVES this one.) Some of the captions to the pics with locals made my blood boil. I know she's not a Duggar, but she's ATI, and worships the ground they walk on; I imagine she is pretty much saying what the Duggars could if they weren't in the public eye. 

 

Well, if nothing else it sounds like the Duggars are consistent - another Do-Nothing-Help-No-One "mission" trip. Although I'm sure Boob and Mechelle feel buoyed and even closer to their eventual "reward."

[GEML]

To be honest, even though the US is a very religious country, I honestly don't think that a lot of people here are actually REALLY religious, and many really might not know the answer to the question of where they might go when they die. Even though El Salvador is a Catholic country, it has an violent and disorganized way of life, low education rates, lcoupled with extreme poverty for far too many people (one of the reasons so many emigrate.). It is hard to say how much of a real impact Catholicism has one people's lives.

This isn't to say that foreign missions are good or bad, but I don't think you can assume that simply because any country is culturally X religion that it says anything about how that religion spiritually feeds or doesn't feed any given subset of that countries population.

(For example, while I am a deeply religious person, if my only choices for spiritual sustenance were evangelical, I'd go mighty hungry!)

[GEML]

There is a pool of candidates. And the men from this pool would be virgins. But there are some problems. Some in this subculture think the Duggars have sold out from the show or are too liberal etc. (Which is why the calibre of men the Bates daughters have found are higher than those of the Duggar daughters.)

Second, in nearly all of these families, in the highest social standings, the men are control freaks. This doesn't mean they are unkind or abusive or anything like that, just that they like to call the shots, the way JB does. That's going to make it harder for JB to find spouses for his daughters in particular, as he will want men he can have some influence over, and few fathers will want to give that up over their own sons.

[cmr2014]

I don't think that the Duggar brand of evangelicalism has anything to offer the people of El Salvador. Christianity offers the idea of heaven for the poor. Some older religions offer the idea of a heaven for warriors or the wealthy, but Christianity offers the hope of a reward for regular people who may suffer greatly on Earth.

 

For a person in wretched poverty, this is something of value, but I don't think that the difference between Catholic and Protestant beliefs is of any great significance to the very poor. Most missionaries offer something of value to the populations that they try to convert: schools, medical facilities, wells, etc. I don't think that showing up once a year with some toys and fingernail polish, and preaching to people has any significant effect.

 

Catholocism vs. Protestetism is really kind of a first world problem. When you are desperately trying to feed your children, having someone show up to explain to you the importance of courting, or not using birth control is completely ridiculous. You might take the toys and smile, but if someone shows up next week with medical supplies and birth control, you will say and do whatever they ask to get access to what you need.

 

Obviously, I can't speak for anyone but myself, and it's possible that the Duggars are "saving souls" in El Salvadore, but I doubt it.

[mbutterfly]

There is a pool of candidates. And the men from this pool would be virgins. But there are some problems. Some in this subculture think the Duggars have sold out from the show or are too liberal etc. (Which is why the calibre of men the Bates daughters have found are higher than those of the Duggar daughters.)

Second, in nearly all of these families, in the highest social standings, the men are control freaks. This doesn't mean they are unkind or abusive or anything like that, just that they like to call the shots, the way JB does. That's going to make it harder for JB to find spouses for his daughters in particular, as he will want men he can have some influence over, and few fathers will want to give that up over their own sons.

I have a question then. What if a man is very much into this religious focus, and let's say he is professionally successful, but he is not by nature a controlling sort. Lots of men just aren't. Lots of men just want to do their thing (i.e. work, putter at home) and have a strong woman who really keeps the family on an even keel. It's a perfectly fine way to run a family, but how do they fare in a patriarchal culture?

[floridamom]

If Jim Bob has those types of requirements in fundy husbands for his daughters, he is going to be running in circles. How can he find a guy who will be his own "headship" that will at the same time allow Jim Bob to control him? Contradictory once again.

I also think that ANY unmarried female has to have a chaperone and/or accountability partner whenever she goes anywhere. I am also of the suspicion that a married woman also shouldn't go out unaccompanied as I always see Meeechelle bring one of the kids with her when she goes out without Jim Bob, I haven't seen Anna go anywhere by herself yet, either, and I suspect Jill picks up one of her siblings to ride with them when she drives deickdillard to work in the morning as I have yet to see a selfie of her by herself in her own vehicle....anyone else notice this?

[floridamom]

I would think that the Almighty would appreciate these missionaries working to improve the quality of lives down there working through their governing bodies and not churches that would benefit all there regardless of their faith. After all, Jesus didn't ask "what church do you attend?. Charitable work should be offered to all, not just like minded Christians down there. This, is just my opinion. What are these people going to do with nail polish and candy? They need a better infrastructure..The Duggars give the impression that they go there to feel better about themselves, sorry to say.

[3girlsforus]

I must have missed the details on this missions trip but did they really give out nail polish and candy and did they really teach about courting? That is not like any missions trip I or my kids have been involved in. 

[GEML]

I don't think that too many men who have women who run the show are going to be attracted to this type of patriarchal extreme fundamentalism, or will stay in it long. I've known a few who tried, but it really just doesn't work. And there are quite a few other theologically fundamentalist groups that aren't as extreme in terms of living/social arrangement that they will be more drawn to in the long run. But they might see the Duggars as too extreme for their daughters to marry into - while they wouldn't want their daughters dating just anyone, the idea of a courtship with no kiss would seem extreme.

I think, for instance, that this is likely the type of family Derick was raised in. His mother, as I've heard her speak more, seems to be VERY theologically conservative but the family seems to have been more day to day/social egalitarian. Plenty of those churches out there.

[3girlsforus]

If Jim Bob has those types of requirements in fundy husbands for his daughters, he is going to be running in circles. How can he find a guy who will be his own "headship" that will at the same time allow Jim Bob to control him? Contradictory once again.

 

I think part of the running in circles thing with JimBob is that his ultra-controlling nature is a character flaw rather than a result of his religious beliefs. While I don't believe this courting, no-kissing thing is Biblical or necessary, it is completely possible to do without being as controlling and obsessive as JB. His obsession with their sex lives, his need to constantly control, his need to control after the marriage etc... that is him being sick and twisted. Those are all traits he would have regardless of his religion. He just found a religion that makes him seem morally superior at the same time (similar to the guy from Sister Wives). 

[NausetGirl]

I think part of the running in circles thing with JimBob is that his ultra-controlling nature is a character flaw rather than a result of his religious beliefs. While I don't believe this courting, no-kissing thing is Biblical or necessary, it is completely possible to do without being as controlling and obsessive as JB. His obsession with their sex lives, his need to constantly control, his need to control after the marriage etc... that is him being sick and twisted. Those are all traits he would have regardless of his religion. He just found a religion that makes him seem morally superior at the same time (similar to the guy from Sister Wives). 

 

Agree!  The more I learn, the more Boob looks to be someone with a massive need to control - and to show others how superior he is. I think he really was a nerdy, geeky, teased-picked-on-and-bullied little kid in school etc. And now with everything he does, he tries to make things so he can point out "See how great am I now? See how everything I touch is good?  And superior to what you have?"

[NausetGirl]

I must have missed the details on this missions trip but did they really give out nail polish and candy and did they really teach about courting? That is not like any missions trip I or my kids have been involved in. 

 

SMH - nail polish.  Get ready to plant a flag, boys - we have finally found THE most clueless individuals on the face of the earth.

[DoctorWhovian]

There's a picture posted from the trip by that woman of a statue of Mary with some comment about how she told the people they shouldn't be worshipping Mary. I'm not Catholic or religious in any way, but how f*cking rude is it to mock someone's religion to their face when you are there to help them? Then there was some comment about how she told a woman her son needs to go specifically to an Evangelical church (I believe he said he was already Christian?)

[Barb23]

I must have missed the details on this missions trip but did they really give out nail polish and candy and did they really teach about courting? That is not like any missions trip I or my kids have been involved in.

There were pictures posted from their mission trip last summer showing the Duggar girls giving the little El Salvadoran girls manicures. On old episodes of the trips, they were passing out soccer balls and bibles they brought as well as candy for a party celebrating Jesus' birth. While that might be good on their down time, we are never shown them helping by building/renovating houses, schools, or helping the locals with farming ---what everyone else does on a mission trip. Now the trips have become one more Selfie opportunity for them.

[Jellybeans]

a friend of mine works for a religious group here (not FOTF) and she went to South America on a mission, While there, she and her group taught mothers how to use the clean water gadget they brought for the villagers. They also taught them the importance of hygiene so their families would not get sick.

I am sure a bit of scripture was shared but it was NOT the focus of the trip. It was the clean water. I can get behind a mission service trip like that.

[Sew Sumi]

Someone in a group I belong to calculated the cost of transporting the 15 Duggars to El Salvador. The cost in includes airfare (the missionaries are responsible for this separately) as well as the costs for the mission itself, food included. She came up with a total just under $20,000. Think of how far that money would go if Boob would have just written a check and allowed the full-time missionaries to do their work, rather than spend money on stuff like spaghetti sauce. Yes, rice, beans, and spaghetti sauce (this according to Marci Dauer). 

[Darknight]

The duggars should stay in El Salvador for a year while a family in El Salvador stays in the US for a year. These people have no consideration for others

[Joe Jitsu913]

I have done missionary work within the US. Missionary work goes beyond handing out Bibles and talking about Jesus. It's about serving others who are in need. I remember my church group went to an impoverished area in Kentucky and helped rebuild a family's bedroom floor which was rotting away. You could actually see the ground through their floor.We also helped build them a ramp to their trailer. IIRC, they were an elderly couple. At no time, did we lecture them on Jesus etc. I'm sure in AR, there are many families who could use similar services like the ones I mentioned. I would have a deeper respect for the Duggars if they helped people in their community. Preaching to the folks in South America about Jesus (people who are already Catholic), does absolutely nothing to help society. They only do it for self-serving purposes.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Joe Jitsu913

[Skittl1321]

There's a picture posted from the trip by that woman of a statue of Mary with some comment about how she told the people they shouldn't be worshipping Mary. I'm not Catholic or religious in any way, but how f*cking rude is it to mock someone's religion to their face when you are there to help them?

Luckily Catholics don't worship Mary, they honor her. :)