Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Ilovemylabs]

This entire concept is so awful. A child has no say in how they come to be adopted. What do they think is to become of children that have been put up for adoption? Are they to be discarded? Live lives alone? Doesn't sound very Christian to me.

Both my children are adopted.  There is a sweet poem that I had printed on their adoption announcements:

"Not flesh of my flesh, not bone of my bone

 But still miraculously my own.

 Never forget for a single minute

 You didn't grow under my heart, but in it."

 

My children couldn't be more mine than if I had given birth to them.  If they wanted to search for their birth parents I would have no problem because I love them and want them to be happy.  Neither has expressed an interest however.  It is unconscionable to me that someone would regard an adopted child as somewhat less than a biological one. 

[kassygreene]

I doubt KC drank the kool-aid - he's always been a hard-core intolerant ass.  If you ever get the chance watch the E! True Hollywood Story on Growing Pains; the interviews from the rest of the cast are pretty eye-popping, especially the actress who was playing his girlfriend in the middle of the run - when it came out that she had posed topless (or nude?) for pictures, he got her fired.

 

And did you know that KC discovered and mentored Leonardo DiCaprio?  *snerk* gotta wonder how that relationship played out.

[Rhondinella]

I guess I missed the discussion of why Gothardism rejects adopted children.  Because they can't confirm who exactly their biological parents are and therefore they might be "tainted" in some kind of way?  Or is there some other ridiculous reason?

[GEML]

It's because the "sins of the fathers" could be carried to the next generation. There really ISNT any reason, just some twisted old man's perversity that says far more about his mind than anyone else's, but because he made this rule, it has caused real heartbreak within his community.

[AnnieGirl]

I've been wondering the past few days if Duggars are going to give up their i-Products!  Love the sinner, hate the sin, love their product! :/

[GEML]

Especially when I'm betting those sinful products are given as product placement and are free!

[Darknight]

It's because the "sins of the fathers" could be carried to the next generation. There really ISNT any reason, just some twisted old man's perversity that says far more about his mind than anyone else's, but because he made this rule, it has caused real heartbreak within his community.

I wonder if Gothard was adopted and felt abandonment

[Hpmec]

Kirk Cameron used to live next door to a friend of mine, and I met him a couple of times. This was years ago when he and his wife had just adopted their first child Jack, who is African-American. I mention this only because I cannot imagine Boob matching up one of his daughters with an African-American adoptee (since some posters here are speculating about a future Cameron/Duggar courtship). Not in this lifetime. Kirk was very polite and friendly toward my lapsed Catholic friend and her athiest husband. They stayed in touch and continued to socialize even after Kirk moved his family to fancier digs in a gated community. I have no doubt of the sincerity of his religious beliefs, but I suspect his association with the Duggars is more business than pleasure.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Hpmec

[floridamom]

Re: Adoption a no no for the Duggars....Equates to generational sin which attaches itself to 4 generations of a family. An adopted child's lineage isn't known, so therefore, the Duggars would NOT know what the sins of this child's parents, etc., were and it would be "in their camp". So heartless of them.

[mbutterfly]

I have wondered about what constituted "sins of the fathers." So one looks back 4 generations. If I do it as if I were not adopted and thus knew I would be looking at pretty much 3 former generations of hard-working folks, several teachers, a couple of doctors, housewives. We were big on family so I know a lot about even those who died before I was born. I don't really know of any particular sins though I'm sure some may have been challenged by vainglory, let's say. But I never saw that in the folks I knew and haven't heard in the ones who went before. Does anyone know what counts in this? And then what is one to do with such information?

[toodles]

I thought they had mentioned adopting kids at some point.  I thought Jill had mentioned adoption too.  Or I could be hallucinating.  The "rules" they follow give me a headache.

[GEML]

What's even stupider (not to put too fine a point on it) is that Jim Bob goes around bad mouthing his own father's "sins" and Michelle had practically no contact with much of her family but some biological tie makes all that ok?

[toodles]

I have two issues with them -- first, I find them  sort of exploitative, because they almost always deal with parts of fundamentalist/evangelical worlds, like the Duggars, that don't even begin to encompass the reality of what most religious girls are going through.  There's an enormous different between a girl who makes a purity promise and one who attends a purity ball on a date with her father.  The first is someone who may or may not even have a father to make that commitment to, and was drawn to the church because it offers her family-like feeling of acceptance, and the latter is almost exclusively someone who comes from a nuclear family, someone who has money, and a father and mother of a particular type.  They are a subculture within a subculture within a subculture, and for all the one line that might state that, we are still endlessly parading these young women out as though they are something to be stared at.  That irks at me.  They are already commodified within their own culture -- we don't necessarily make it any easier to leave by commodifying them in the secular world -- it only proves that their parents were "right."

Second -- we continually leave young people in a young state, when, like real life, people grow up and move on.  The real issue is that fundy and evangelical churches cannot keep their young people in the sanctuary, (or the nave, the worship center, the auditorium -- whatever you want to call it.)  Three out of four of these children will leave the church behind completely.  THREE OUT OF FOUR.  That's an astonishingly high number.  That's a death toll number.  In thirty, forty years, all of these mega churches will be mega ghost towns unless religious leaders figure out what they are doing wrong -- and maybe what they are doing wrong is everything.

Because we keep bringing up the same examples of shocking fundy/evangelical behavior, both within the culture and in the media, and then act surprised to learn that the people who are supposed to be changed by it actually are -- and they leave.  I remember years ago when the movie JESUS CAMP came out and everyone kept saying how shocking and scary it was, and had I seen it, and did I know what was happening in churches today?  So my sisters and I watched it, and we howled our way through -- it was church camp as we knew it.  It probably wasn't even as intense as we remember.  But the difference is that we didn't remain static like the children in the film, we grew up, like people do.  And all three of us left that world eventually for another world.  All that intensity, all of that "indoctrination" all of those sermons on hell, on the second coming, on the importance of a godly government -- and you ended up with three pro-choice, liberal suburban women.  Oh, the irony.....maybe if my parents had had one more that child would have stayed!  :)

 

I really enjoy your posts.  Your point of view is very interesting and I learn so much.  Thank you for taking the time to educate me.

Edited November 5, 2014 by toodles

[Rhondinella]

I'm lovin' the love around here!  :-)

[fliptopbox]

 

And did you know that KC discovered and mentored Leonardo DiCaprio?  *snerk* gotta wonder how that relationship played out.

Well, we certainly know who stayed relevant over the years.. I would be very surprised to learn they've stayed in touch. Leonardo's lifestyle and Kirk's lifestyle seem to clash in almost every way possible. Although, think of some of Leo's roles over the years....then imagine them played by Kirk! Oh that's quite a laugh.

 

I was never raised in a religious home. I gave it a chance, I tried confirmation classes with a friend who went to a Lutheran church. It was ok, but I never found anything about it that really resonated. I also went to Catholic church with another friend. That was a lot more boring. Plus it was all "we're all going to hell!!!" for one reason or another. Sins, and all. I have also been to a couple fundie-lite Christian "young peoples'" holiday events which everyone seemed pretty nice....but then again I only went twice. I have no idea what those people I met were truly like. It was too far from me to go regularly, again, I went with friends who were local to that area. All I really learned from all of that is I guess I have no real burning desire to be a religious person. And that's ok! I have nothing against those who do (hell, my step-brother is a Christian youth minister) but it's not my thing.

 

Anyway, bringing this back to the Duggars, I am not surprised that the fundie ultra-conservative sect has such a high defection rate. Seriously, living up to those ridiculous standards all the time must be exhausting. Just relax and enjoy life, I think God will be cool if fundie women wear pants or even *shock* a real swimsuit! I think he'd also be fine with a woman working and not bearing more children that she can reasonably care for and women even attending college.

 

Although according to South Park....the Mormons have it pegged.

[GEML]

Even evangelicals and Fundy lite have such high defection rates. The mainstream churches have been in slow and steady decline for years, but the evangelical churches in particular are in free fall amount the young.

[GEML]

In the other thread, we were talking about why Michelle seems to feel such real guilt and shame over what seems to be, at least from the stories we know, an extremely tame adolescence. Even by Fundamentalist standards coming back as a prodigal daughter to the degree Michelle acts involves a lot more than dating some other men, crushes, kisses and maybe second, or even third base.

Several people talk about how Michelle puts down JB from time to time by mentioning his bad breath or juvenile sense of humor, while he NEVER says anything bad about her. But that isn't true - he has said PLENTY about how "she wishes" for a different past. Uh huh.

Some religious off shoots use really abusive methods for a few years to control people to get them into the fold. Tactics such as physical spanking, screaming obscenities or names like "whore" into their faces for hours and things like that. They are often not done by the spouse, but by other people who are simultaneously convincing the spouse how awful HE is. Then you come back together and "confess" and "forgive" each other and the group also "forgives" you and welcomes you into the communal identity, now that your sense of self is warped. If you get out of hand and start to think for yourself - repeat.

But the point is that even people who have done nothing have a hard time standing up to this kind of spiritual abuse. This might not even have been a Gothard group, as I haven't read about this specifically in Gothardism. But it's out there. And it happens. It could explain the weird shame, and even why Gothard seemed "liberating" to them. Maybe what they got involved in on the first try was even worse.

Who knows? I can speculate religious backgrounds all day! :)

[Jellybeans]

Thank you GEML, we are learning a LOT from you!

[LazyToaster]

My observation is that in fundie churches (at least the ones I was exposed to - many years ago) - one thing that happens is that people said things that were presented as "being from God".  I'm not making fun - this happened.  In charismatic/pentecostal churches it was in the form of a spoken word or exhortation - usually to the whole congregation or gathering - as a message or prophesy (really, it was called that). 

 

Very often people would approach other people and start out saying things like "God laid you on my heart", "I was praying for you and God told me", "I had a dream from God".  Then after that type of beginning - which set it up as being important, even life-changing - then they would tell you something that you should do or stop doing etc., etc. 

 

Like I said - not making fun - I have no doubt that 99% of those people were sincere and believed that they were hearing from God and felt compelled to share it.  But, it is hard to explain how easy it is to take those types of message very seriously and even feel special that God used Brother XYZ to speak directly to you and your life.  It was very powerful.   

 

I've been out of the church world for about 20 years, except for special occasions with family and friends, etc.  So, I have no idea if this still goes on.  If it does, it might help explain how people get caught up in teaching and beliefs that is hard for outsiders to understand.  You don't swallow a message - for example, from Mr. Gothard - all at once - you learn it little by little and if you believe it is "from God" it makes it easier to put aside any rational thinking and doubts.   

[GEML]

^^^oh yes, that all still goes on, and in much the same language. And it's very skillfully arranged so that if person X says, "God laid it on my heart that he wanted you to hear this message," and person Y replies, "Then why didn't God speak to my heart directly?" the answer can always be , "Well, you must be in rebellion or not in good standing with God, which is why he's reaching out through another person."

It's set up so the person hearing the message CANNOT reject it, without "proving" that indeed, you truly are rebelling. You can imagine how much power that gives a person over another person, even when someone is sincere. Let alone when you are a twisted control freak.

[galax-arena]

"God laid it on my heart that you should be more modest."

"That's funny, because God laid it on my heart that you're full of shit." 

[Darknight]

Well a christian said to a kid he was molesting that God told him to do it. God wanted him to most her. See how this shit is dangerous

[phoenix62]

I have two issues with them -- first, I find them  sort of exploitative, because they almost always deal with parts of fundamentalist/evangelical worlds, like the Duggars, that don't even begin to encompass the reality of what most religious girls are going through.  There's an enormous different between a girl who makes a purity promise and one who attends a purity ball on a date with her father.  The first is someone who may or may not even have a father to make that commitment to, and was drawn to the church because it offers her family-like feeling of acceptance, and the latter is almost exclusively someone who comes from a nuclear family, someone who has money, and a father and mother of a particular type.  They are a subculture within a subculture within a subculture, and for all the one line that might state that, we are still endlessly parading these young women out as though they are something to be stared at.  That irks at me.  They are already commodified within their own culture -- we don't necessarily make it any easier to leave by commodifying them in the secular world -- it only proves that their parents were "right."

Second -- we continually leave young people in a young state, when, like real life, people grow up and move on.  The real issue is that fundy and evangelical churches cannot keep their young people in the sanctuary, (or the nave, the worship center, the auditorium -- whatever you want to call it.)  Three out of four of these children will leave the church behind completely.  THREE OUT OF FOUR.  That's an astonishingly high number.  That's a death toll number.  In thirty, forty years, all of these mega churches will be mega ghost towns unless religious leaders figure out what they are doing wrong -- and maybe what they are doing wrong is everything.

Because we keep bringing up the same examples of shocking fundy/evangelical behavior, both within the culture and in the media, and then act surprised to learn that the people who are supposed to be changed by it actually are -- and they leave.  I remember years ago when the movie JESUS CAMP came out and everyone kept saying how shocking and scary it was, and had I seen it, and did I know what was happening in churches today?  So my sisters and I watched it, and we howled our way through -- it was church camp as we knew it.  It probably wasn't even as intense as we remember.  But the difference is that we didn't remain static like the children in the film, we grew up, like people do.  And all three of us left that world eventually for another world.  All that intensity, all of that "indoctrination" all of those sermons on hell, on the second coming, on the importance of a godly government -- and you ended up with three pro-choice, liberal suburban women.  Oh, the irony.....maybe if my parents had had one more that child would have stayed!  :)

So...the idea that these Duggar folks say that the show is a "mission" of sorts...is pretty accurate in that we in the secular world seeing a small part of their world....would make it LESS likely for someone to escape this culture? I wondered about this. If so, this distresses me even more. Poor kids.

I've noticed recently that the marriage of the 2 daughters has caused quite a stir in the secular media, to the point that Jessa and Ben seem to have people following them on their honeymoon, snapping pics and the like (something I noticed on a FB page that snarks on the Duggars). I wonder how that would affect Jessa. Would she be more likely to thumb her nose at the rules, so to speak, considering she seems to have a following of sorts? How would that play with the world she is from? Will all of this come back to hurt her...will she get grief, I wonder?

[phoenix62]

In the other thread, we were talking about why Michelle seems to feel such real guilt and shame over what seems to be, at least from the stories we know, an extremely tame adolescence. Even by Fundamentalist standards coming back as a prodigal daughter to the degree Michelle acts involves a lot more than dating some other men, crushes, kisses and maybe second, or even third base.

Several people talk about how Michelle puts down JB from time to time by mentioning his bad breath or juvenile sense of humor, while he NEVER says anything bad about her. But that isn't true - he has said PLENTY about how "she wishes" for a different past. Uh huh.

Some religious off shoots use really abusive methods for a few years to control people to get them into the fold. Tactics such as physical spanking, screaming obscenities or names like "whore" into their faces for hours and things like that. They are often not done by the spouse, but by other people who are simultaneously convincing the spouse how awful HE is. Then you come back together and "confess" and "forgive" each other and the group also "forgives" you and welcomes you into the communal identity, now that your sense of self is warped. If you get out of hand and start to think for yourself - repeat.

But the point is that even people who have done nothing have a hard time standing up to this kind of spiritual abuse. This might not even have been a Gothard group, as I haven't read about this specifically in Gothardism. But it's out there. And it happens. It could explain the weird shame, and even why Gothard seemed "liberating" to them. Maybe what they got involved in on the first try was even worse.

Who knows? I can speculate religious backgrounds all day! :)

Oh, how sad. I wonder...this probably happened to Michelle? Do they do this mess at the Journey to the Heart and that other camp they go to?

I can't help but wonder if Michelle is on some psych meds or something. Not that I'm against them, far from it, I have to take antidepressants. Michelle actually reminds of me of my mother. My mother was mentally ill, and couldn't raise me....God knows she wanted to, when the state removed me from her, it tore her apart. Michelle occasionally has some of those motions and speech patterns of someone who takes some hard core psych meds. (Something like thorizane, I mean...but I would doubt she'd be taking something that strong).

[phoenix62]

Well a christian said to a kid he was molesting that God told him to do it. God wanted him to most her. See how this shit is dangerous

What!? Wow...that's horrible for that poor child that was molested. WTF. And yes, I see just how twisted that can be.

Can you imagine? A child believing that a God would allow, no, TELL someone to hurt him/her in such a manner. Things like that don't just physically harm you, they destroy a part of your psyche...that's why I despise people who harm children in that manner. If there were a hell, it would be too good for the sick SOB that harms a child like that.

[Darknight]

What!? Wow...that's horrible for that poor child that was molested. WTF. And yes, I see just how twisted that can be.

Can you imagine? A child believing that a God would allow, no, TELL someone to hurt him/her in such a manner. Things like that don't just physically harm you, they destroy a part of your psyche...that's why I despise people who harm children in that manner. If there were a hell, it would be too good for the sick SOB that harms a child like that.

Well the deacon of the church told the girl it was gods will and god would want her to obey. On top of that she did come from a household that encourages purity until marriage. "It's gods plan" So this young girl totally believed that God wanted her to be molested and she felt worthless since she haven't saved her special gift for marriage. So yes all that God laid it on my heart shit is just that shit.

[GEML]

There are real abuses in the church, and it's important to keep those in mind. But it's also important to keep reality in mind when talking about actual people. I would encourage anyone who wants to know more about Bill Gothard and his sexual activities (which certainly have never come close to being Jim Jones like) on the Recovering Grace website. They are very moving to read, even though they may be less sensational than some other stories we may be able to recount.

[Darknight]

Let me get this straight, if little Josie gets raped and murdered by a guy (even if it's a family member) it's her fault? But if it's her fault how could she become a martyr.

I guess so because she wasn't being modest. I can't imagine if God forbid any of these kids are molested or raped because it can happen to anyone, how fucked up they would be. It's bad enough having your innocence taking away from you but then you own parents don't believe you and shame you.

[Ilovemylabs]

Regarding fundamentalism and orthodoxy:  I have been reading an excellent book entitled Why Faith Matters by Rabbi David J. Wolpe.  I want to quote something he wrote that is worth thinking about and perhaps discussing.  "In our time the violence of fanatics, murder in God's name, has persuaded some that religion has led us astray.  Such fanatiicism is not a product of belief, but of the insecurity of disbelief. The renowned theologian Reinhold Niebuhr wrote, 'Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt.  It is when we are not sure that we are doubly sure.'"

I think this explains many (not JUST Christian) fundamentalists.  When you have secret doubts, STRICT adherence to outward actions ( manner of dress, food you eat, how your raise your children, social views on dating and marriage, etc.) can assuage those inner fears.  Just my opinion.  I highly recommend the Wolpe book.  It gives one much food for thought.

[mimionthebeach]

This showed up in my fb feed. I found it interesting because it put this old time fundamentalism in an interesting context. This conservative pastor from Georgia spends some time talking religion in Scandinavia. 

 

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/11/07/american-bible-thumper-travels-scandinavia-freaks-out-discovering-secular-video/

 

The trailer is more respectful than the article title. I actually watched the whole program on YouTube and it was worth watching.

 

[mimionthebeach]

Those in the know, tell us about FOTF. Thanks!

[Rhondinella]

The renowned theologian Reinhold Niebuhr wrote, 'Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt.  It is when we are not sure that we are doubly sure.'"

I think this explains many (not JUST Christian) fundamentalists.  When you have secret doubts, STRICT adherence to outward actions ( manner of dress, food you eat, how your raise your children, social views on dating and marriage, etc.) can assuage those inner fears.  Just my opinion.  I highly recommend the Wolpe book.  It gives one much food for thought.

 

 

This!  A million times!!  My husband is a professor of Christian theology and we are quite moderate Christians by most standards, probably "heathen pagans" to the Duggars.  He always says that so much of fundamentalism is powered by fear: fear of the unknown, fear of insecurity, etc.  I think that's right on.  It's true with much of very conservative politics as well.

[Jellybeans]

I was inappropriately touched by a Dr. when I was a young adult, it took me close to 40 years to tell anyone. I was a paramedic for 10 years and saw a lot of horrible things done to kids, one of the cases I was involved in the parents knew their daughters was being raped by their uncle.

"Liking" your post felt inappropriate but I wanted you to know I read your post. I do not understand why parents, churches, etc., have such a hard time facing the horrible truth.

I guess it is partly like Rhondinella said, they can't handle the truth due to fear. Personally, I am more afraid of being lied to than the truth so this is hard for me to understand.

He always says that so much of fundamentalism is powered by fear: fear of the unknown, fear of insecurity, etc.  I think that's right on.  It's true with much of very conservative politics as well.

[LazyToaster]

I thought that video was interesting - I liked how nice Pastor Marty was. 

[Jellybeans]

Those in the know, tell us about FOTF. Thanks!

This link summarizes FOTF better than I can. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_on_the_Family

A personal experience: an employee there told me My daughter was in heaven (because God told her directly- she died five years ago) but I was going to hell. Why? Because I won't marry my live-in boyfriend.

I still cannot get over things like that said in the name of a loving God.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Jellybeans

[mimionthebeach]

Again with the feeds. Full disclosure: I'm a second generation atheist and have a degree in microbiology. My teen rebellion was to dabble in a couple of mainstream religions my friends were raised in. Felt weird. I have made quite a study of religions, which is not to say I'm any kind of expert just intrigued. Right now I'm into cults. So... the Duggars.

 

This podcast features author Kathryn Joyce, who actually coined the term "quiverfull" for the movement, Vyckie Garrison (No Longer Quivering), a former follower and her daughter, who is a lesbian. They talk about the movement, leaving, the legalism and the Duggars. Again, while this comes from an atheist, it's respectful. Not intending to offend anyone.

 

Skip the intro. The interviews start at about 12:50.

https://richarddawkins.net/2014/11/tta-podcast-193-no-longer-quivering/

[mbutterfly]

Well a christian said to a kid he was molesting that God told him to do it. God wanted him to most her. See how this shit is dangerous

Sincere Christians speak this way, but -- sadly -- abusers do too. 

[phoenix62]

Again with the feeds. Full disclosure: I'm a second generation atheist and have a degree in microbiology. My teen rebellion was to dabble in a couple of mainstream religions my friends were raised in. Felt weird. I have made quite a study of religions, which is not to say I'm any kind of expert just intrigued. Right now I'm into cults. So... the Duggars.

 

This podcast features author Kathryn Joyce, who actually coined the term "quiverfull" for the movement, Vyckie Garrison (No Longer Quivering), a former follower and her daughter, who is a lesbian. They talk about the movement, leaving, the legalism and the Duggars. Again, while this comes from an atheist, it's respectful. Not intending to offend anyone.

 

Skip the intro. The interviews start at about 12:50.

https://richarddawkins.net/2014/11/tta-podcast-193-no-longer-quivering/

Thank you very much for the link to the podcast, I enjoyed it. I've read the No Longer Qivering blog often and I have read the book about the quiver full movement as well.

[bigskygirl]

Love and compassion. Seriously... Are these the same people who think a woman cannot become pregnant while being raped or think a little girl asked to be molested because she was being a tease (blame the victim not the criminal.) GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

[galax-arena]

From a counter-attack petition defending the Duggars that was posted in the Media thread:

 

the right of the Duggars to express their traditional family values, which they have always done with love and compassion

Love and compassion? … Yeah, I’m gonna need to see the receipts on that.

 

I can’t help but compare the Duggars to an acquaintance of mine who is a conservative Christian, albeit mainstream conservative and not Duggar conservative. He advocates against gay marriage, and yes, I do think he’s wrong in that sense and I don’t give him a pass on that. However, unlike the Duggars and a lot of their ilk, he refuses to make gay people a scapegoat for the breakdown of the American family. He’s against gay marriage because he says it goes against what God intended as marriage in the Bible, but he also supported the repeal of DADT because, according to him, it’s unfair to penalize gay people when they aren’t the only ones with “less than perfect” sexual morals in the military, and that the military could only benefit from widening its talent pool*. He’s also apologized to gay people for how they’re often treated by other conservative Christians, and he doesn’t yammer on about family values. 

 

Like I said, I still think his stance on gay marriage and homosexuality being a sin is wrong, and I’m not too wild about “love the sinner, hate the sin.” But, like, if I had to pick an example of a Christian actually coming at this from a place of love and compassion, my acquaintance would be on it, and the Duggars - with their “trans people are child molesters” fearmongering - would not. 

 

* I'm not sure what the Duggars' stance on DADT was, but considering they were against anti-discrimination ordinances for housing and the workplace, I'd be surprised if they weren't for DADT as well. Because I guess God has something against gay people in the military. 

Edited November 22, 2014 by galax-arena

[GEML]

Again with the feeds. Full disclosure: I'm a second generation atheist and have a degree in microbiology. My teen rebellion was to dabble in a couple of mainstream religions my friends were raised in. Felt weird. I have made quite a study of religions, which is not to say I'm any kind of expert just intrigued. Right now I'm into cults. So... the Duggars.

This podcast features author Kathryn Joyce, who actually coined the term "quiverfull" for the movement, Vyckie Garrison (No Longer Quivering), a former follower and her daughter, who is a lesbian. They talk about the movement, leaving, the legalism and the Duggars. Again, while this comes from an atheist, it's respectful. Not intending to offend anyone.

Skip the intro. The interviews start at about 12:50.

https://richarddawkins.net/2014/11/tta-podcast-193-no-longer-quivering/

Quiverfull has always been more complicated than the secular media has credited it. Mary Pride is probably the first person who used the term. Her book came out in 1985, and I definitely knew families practicing by that year.

[NausetGirl]

This!  A million times!!  My husband is a professor of Christian theology and we are quite moderate Christians by most standards, probably "heathen pagans" to the Duggars.  He always says that so much of fundamentalism is powered by fear: fear of the unknown, fear of insecurity, etc.  I think that's right on.  It's true with much of very conservative politics as well.

 

This has GOT to be true because the Duggars are constantly justifying all their actions as being necessary to protect their children from every single danger and evil out there in the Cold Cruel World. These people are simply overpowered by fear.

[BradandJanet]

This link summarizes FOTF better than I can. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_on_the_Family

A personal experience: an employee there told me My daughter was in heaven (because God told her directly- she died five years ago) but I was going to hell. Why? Because I won't marry my live-in boyfriend.

I still cannot get over things like that said in the name of a loving God.

I'm so sorry that you had to hear such comments. These kinds of remarks come from small people who try to feel important by claiming to have some direct pipeline to God.

 

I know a child (not mine) who was told that her mother would go to hell for swearing occasionally. That was terrifying to a nine-year-old and was said for the purpose of turning the child against her mother who had left the "true" church. So sad.

 

I received a lot of FOTF junk as gifts years ago. It's all in a landfill somewhere polluting the earth.

[galax-arena]

Taken from the Duggars in the Media thread:

 

This is the problem with all of their logic related to the LGBT community. No one pretends to be transgender. No one pretends to be gay. It's not fun to be gay (especially in Arkansas), and it's certainly not fun to be transgender. People who are born this way are ridiculed, tormented, bullied, and often outcast by their families and communities. No one would pretend to be transgender in order to molest little girls in a public restroom.

This made me think. It seems like there are two major trains of thought when it comes to how anti-gay Christians think of homosexuality:

 

1. Homosexuality is a choice. Gay people can choose to no longer be gay. 

2. Homosexuality is not a choice. Gay people are not necessarily wrong for having same-sex desires; however, they should not act upon them. It doesn’t matter if they have no control over their feelings, it’s a test from God.

 

I’m wondering which attitude is more common among the different denominations/groups? With the Duggars and their talk about how Michelle’s sister’s lifestyle, I’m guessing they believe in #1. And, well, there’s a reason why we have reparative therapy.

 

In college I was part of a fellowship group with Southern Baptist roots, and the leader of the group once talked about a girl he counseled. According to him, the girl identified as a lesbian, but only because she had been previously sexually abused by a man.

 

But it seems like some Christian denominations are moving away from that - maybe they’ve realized that they’re largely lost the battle on that one - and acknowledging that yes, homosexuality isn’t necessarily a choice, but that that doesn’t make gay activity/behavior okay. So, fine, if you’re gay you’re not necessarily sinning, but if you act upon your feelings, then you are.

Edited November 24, 2014 by galax-arena

[natyxg]

1. Homosexuality is a choice. Gay people can choose to no longer be gay.

2. Homosexuality is not a choice. Gay people are not necessarily wrong for having same-sex desires; however, they should not act upon them. It doesn’t matter if they have no control over their feelings, it’s a test from God.

I’m wondering which attitude is more common among the different denominations/groups?

 

But it seems like some Christian denominations are moving away from that - maybe they’ve realized that they’re largely lost the battle on that one - and acknowledging that yes, homosexuality isn’t necessarily a choice, but that that doesn’t make gay activity/behavior okay. So, fine, if you’re gay you’re not necessarily sinning, but if you act upon your feelings, then you are.

 

I haven't been a practising catholic in years, but, as far as I know, that's the stand of the Catholic Church. You can't help being gay and being gay is not a sin in itself, the sin is in engaging in homosexual behaviour. So a celibate gay person is okay.

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[GEML]

Unfortunately, this was the Catholic position for many years, and they became very open about accepting gay clergy into their seminaries in the 50's-70's. I'm sure I don't need to go into the horrendous details of what occurred. Because what the church found was that "gay" was being used by many of these men as a code for pedophile. Keep in mind that at the time, being gay was still a psychological disorder (I apologize for how nauseating this is, because it's such a shameful past) and thus, in far too many religious communities the two became fused together.

Which is why you have Michelle Duggar making the bigoted robocall that you have seen recently.

Pope Francis has begun to move back to the original intent of the program - we are looking for mindful and Godly priests who will be celibate, regardless of orientation. And some Protestant churches are taking a cue from that.

But I'm happier to say that many churches accept and welcome people from all walks of life and all backgrounds who wish to live in keeping with a godly life. And that includes faithful and mindful gays and lesbians and bisexual parishioners too.

[bella bluth]

The unfortunate priest issues aside, the Catholic Church's position remains that homosexuality itself is not sinful - it is engaging in sexual activity outside of marriage.  The same sin a heterosexual commits when engaging in sexual relations outside of marriage.

[galax-arena]

the Catholic Church's position remains that homosexuality itself is not sinful - it is engaging in sexual activity outside of marriage. The same sin a heterosexual commits when engaging in sexual relations outside of marriage.

Yes, but then the question remains whether the Catholic Church supports gay marriage, in which case gay people are still affected in a way that straight people aren't.

 

IIRC the official stance is that they're still opposed, although I think they've softened up a bit recently? At least in terms of the rhetoric used. 

Edited November 24, 2014 by galax-arena

[bella bluth]

Yes, but then the question remains whether the Catholic Church supports gay marriage, in which case gay people are still affected in a way that straight people aren't.

 

IIRC the official stance is that they're still opposed, although I think they've softened up a bit recently? At least in terms of the rhetoric used. 

 

You are correct.  However, my response was in response to natyxg's question.  That said, to your point, It saddens me that I do not think that I will see the Catholic Church changing its position on gay marriage.  It was absolutely wonderful to hear the Pope's response to the question on homosexuality, "Who am i to judge?".  Hope springs enternal everyone, especially those self-reported Christians, will get on board with love, peace and compassion without exception or exclusion.  Luke 6:37 is pretty clear, after all.

[Rhondinella]

This is an interesting conversation, folks, and I appreciate everyone keeping it respectful.  However, let's limit the discussion of beliefs about gay marriage and stances on homosexuality to things that directly relate to the show and the Duggars, ok?  So, a discussion what the Duggars believe on theses topics would be fine, as long as it cites actual evidence in the form of things they've said or done, either on the show or off, but a general discussion of what various denominations believe is probably off-topic.  Thanks.