Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Absolom]

I find that the Duggars won't outright say that they don't believe in military service is the problem for me.  The sects mentioned above all are plainly and openly stating their beliefs on the matter. 

[Almost 3000]

It seems like the Duggars are not pacifists like the other groups mentioned but object to following leadership that might not be in line with their beliefs. We know they're against abortion but are they also against capital punishment or foreign wars? They send their sons to training that seems to include elements of the military and weaponry so I'll assume they at least believe in protecting their property using force.

[GEML]

The Duggars don't say a lot of things outright about their religion on television, but this doesn't mean that they don't believe them or havent followed them respectfully for years. People who are familiar with their beliefs and customs can see them (such as having churches without age segregated learning) but that's not examined or explained on the show.

Edited October 26, 2014 by GEML

[mbutterfly]

The Duggars don't say a lot of things outright about their religion on television, but this doesn't mean that they don't believe them or havent followed them respectfully for years. People who are familiar with their beliefs and customs can see them (such as having churches without age segregated learning) but that's not examined or explained on the show.

GemL, if you know, are they pacifists? 

[GEML]

I don't know if they are pacifists in the Amish/Mennonite tradition, but there are other groups who don't submit to outside authority who are exempt from military service during a draft so long as they agree to serve in some other capacity - such as firefighters, first responders, EMTs, etc. They would almost certainly win a court battle on this subject should they press the issue.

[cmr2014]

I would also appreciate it if anyone who knows could enlighten us. I tried to check on-line yesterday, but found no references to Gothard's beliefs on military service. 

It would seem to fit into his belief system of lines of authority and, given that his beliefs gained popularity as sort of the anti-hippie movement, it would seem like he would approve.

 

Along with sending their children to the para-military ALERT camp, the Duggars are also gun owners. We saw Ben and Jessa's date at the gun range, and the infamous Instagram picture of Jessa with a gun. JD is also a constable which, in Arkansas, is a peace officer with full police powers.

 

Are the sons registered with Selective Service as conscientious objectors? Are those records public?

 

Personally, I don't care one way or the other. We have an all-volunteer armed services, and people don't have to join just because they run their mouths. Even if they could pass the entrance examinations, service requires the ability to work with people of all faiths. They have been raised to distrust other people and I don't know if any of them would be able to genuinely trust a Catholic or a Muslim or a Lutheran in a life or death situation.

 

I do, however, think it would be a great way for the kids to gain some freedom (and it would be freedom for those kids). I don't think that the Duggars want their kids to join because 1) It would take them away from filming 2) they might meet people of other beliefs 3) women in pants!

 

ETA - Sorry, I was writing while GEML was posting. Thanks for your insight!

Edited October 26, 2014 by cmr2014

[Dr.Scully]

I have no problem referring to the Duggar's religion as made up because I think all religions are made up - every single one of them. It's the one commonality in all of them (in my opinion, of course).

[GEML]

I have no problem referring to the Duggar's religion as made up because I think all religions are made up - every single one of them. It's the one commonality in all of them (in my opinion, of course).

And that's fine as a personal belief, but the US Constitution does protect those who do not think as you do. No matter how odd their beliefs are. (And some of them are pretty out there.)

[floridamom]

From what it looks like to me is the Duggars and the like send their sons to "pseudo-military"-like training...boy scouts on steroids, but say NAY to anything real like the real U,S. Armed Forces for their boys (forget the gals, no way). This Alert camp, IMO, is to train the guys to defend the faith; a bible war for no better choice of words, not defending their country and ALL who live in it. They don't care about geographical borders, or national security... it's a holy war they are preparing to possible fight; plain and simple...no military for any of them...as it goes against everything they shelter their kids from..soldiers live communally, with non blood relatives, have female superior officers, must interact with all faiths and creeds, soldiers go out to bars, the movies, dinner in restaurants without an accountability buddy. Absolutely everything they do has to do with their religious faith and the military doesn't fit in with that.

[Darknight]

I'm just wondering what the rationale is for women not being allowed to wear pants. It strikes me that women only wearing skirts (especially in a male dominated cult) would just make for easier access sexually. That in itself could be construed as being provocative, couldn't it?

According to Gothard and a bunch of others, pants draw attention to a woman's crotch and curves. It might lead men to lust after her and have impure thoughts. Because you know men are animals that can't control themselves.

I would also appreciate it if anyone who knows could enlighten us. I tried to check on-line yesterday, but found no references to Gothard's beliefs on military service.

It would seem to fit into his belief system of lines of authority and, given that his beliefs gained popularity as sort of the anti-hippie movement, it would seem like he would approve.

Along with sending their children to the para-military ALERT camp, the Duggars are also gun owners. We saw Ben and Jessa's date at the gun range, and the infamous Instagram picture of Jessa with a gun. JD is also a constable which, in Arkansas, is a peace officer with full police powers.

Are the sons registered with Selective Service as conscientious objectors? Are those records public?

Personally, I don't care one way or the other. We have an all-volunteer armed services, and people don't have to join just because they run their mouths. Even if they could pass the entrance examinations, service requires the ability to work with people of all faiths. They have been raised to distrust other people and I don't know if any of them would be able to genuinely trust a Catholic or a Muslim or a Lutheran in a life or death situation.

I do, however, think it would be a great way for the kids to gain some freedom (and it would be freedom for those kids). I don't think that the Duggars want their kids to join because 1) It would take them away from filming 2) they might meet people of other beliefs 3) women in pants!

ETA - Sorry, I was writing while GEML was posting. Thanks for your insight!

Why do they have guns? Do they hunt? Wanna protect themselves? Just leave it in God's hands.

What I Dont Understand about fundies is how they don't even read the bible. The Bible isn't against birth control or education. It doesn't say women are to be treated as slaves. It doesn't say wear skirts or having a bunch of babies. God gave you a brain and free will. So stop blaming your actions on her.

[GEML]

It's rather shocking how few people who claim it actually read the Bible. One of the biggest reasons for the Protestant reformation was the right to read the Bible in our own languages and interpret it for ourselves. Now so many people simply throw that hard won right away and instead simply follow whatever their minister or pastor or some dumb bunny says Jesus would do without even questioning it or looking for themselves.

Makes me sad. I don't mind that people don't agree with me, but I hate that they don't even bother to try.

[Jellybeans]

Very few people have read the Bible. I am not talking about scriptures, (i find that annoying) but read the Bible...from beginning to end like a book. I have, twice. I need to do it again only because I like to hold my own in discussions.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Jellybeans

[mbutterfly]

I believe many people would like to read and genuinely study the Bible, but they become discouraged. Or sometimes they read and are even touched and inspired until some know-it-all tells them what they have read means something entirely different than their understanding. I find that sad and frustrating too. For about 12 years I have led a rather large Bible study group (about 24 people at any given time). We do not read straight through but we read individual books straight through right there together. I supply the materials that are essentially basic commentaries (maps, analysis of word in original Greek, socio-cultural setting), but most importantly we read. I do not tell them "it really means." The desire is there in many people I have found. This isn't a blowing-my-own-horn post (I fear it sounds like it). Nobody gets more from this than I who thus spend much time weekly in preparation. I do have a seminary degree that came out of my own searching. I just wanted to share that. 

[GEML]

That sounds lovely, mbutterfly! One of the most frustrating things is trying to find a good Bible study with a group of people who don't want someone to tell them "this is what it means" and materials that aren't reminiscent of fifth grade Sunday School where you fill in the blank with the word taken from a verse using translation X and never think maybe that isn't the best word.

Gothard is really good about pulling out this or that verse and not only taking it out of context, but creating a story around it that simply does not and historically could not exist. But because people don't know and don't read and don't study (and aren't allowed to question) you get a group of followers who look like they know dozens of Bible verses, but not at all what they mean.

Edited October 27, 2014 by GEML

[Hpmec]

The Duggars run around the country speaking on behalf of candidates who support a strong national defense and who tout freedom as an important value. They personally enjoy the freedom to worship as they please, to homeschool their kids, to own guns, and to speak out on issues that are important to them. - just a few of their Constitutionally protected freedoms. However, they're content to let others do the heavy lifting when it comes to defending those freedoms, and are definitely not pro military service for themselves. No one must serve including the Duggars, but it's flat out hypocritical to go on the campaign trail in support of hawkish rightwing candidates if they themselves are unwilling to step up and serve.

[cmr2014]

I don't disagree that people who are hawkish and expect the US to take part in military operations all over the world should be willing to serve themselves, but there is a fundamental conflict here. It is JB and J'chelle who have these beliefs, and they are the ones who should serve (as should Josh). I don't see any reason why the children should serve to promote their parents' beliefs.

 

JB and J'chelle believe that it is okay for other people to provide their family with the basic necessities of life -- housing, food, and clothing --  because they are somehow doing the world such a great service in over-supplying the country with their genes. Expecting others to serve in the military while they loll around the TTH is just another example of their entitlement mentality.

 

As I stated up-thread, I think that military service would be a great option for these kids, and it is for that very reason that I would bet that JB and J'chelle would not support it. They would be forced to work with -- and probably become good friends with -- people from other religious backgrounds (and possibly atheists, too). They would develop confidence and skills that would allow them to go out and fend for themselves, and not have to rely on JB. Along with those skills would come the ability to go to college on the GI bill and get an education beyond the rigidly controlled SOTDRT lessons.

 

And they would be free to go out drinking with friends and meet members of the opposite sex without chaperones -- and we know that JB and J'chelle have instilled in them a belief that they will never be able to control themselves if given the slightest opportunity to deviate from the straight and narrow.

[NausetGirl]

I don't disagree that people who are hawkish and expect the US to take part in military operations all over the world should be willing to serve themselves, but there is a fundamental conflict here. It is JB and J'chelle who have these beliefs, and they are the ones who should serve (as should Josh). I don't see any reason why the children should serve to promote their parents' beliefs.

 

JB and J'chelle believe that it is okay for other people to provide their family with the basic necessities of life -- housing, food, and clothing --  because they are somehow doing the world such a great service in over-supplying the country with their genes. Expecting others to serve in the military while they loll around the TTH is just another example of their entitlement mentality.

 

As I stated up-thread, I think that military service would be a great option for these kids, and it is for that very reason that I would bet that JB and J'chelle would not support it. They would be forced to work with -- and probably become good friends with -- people from other religious backgrounds (and possibly atheists, too). They would develop confidence and skills that would allow them to go out and fend for themselves, and not have to rely on JB. Along with those skills would come the ability to go to college on the GI bill and get an education beyond the rigidly controlled SOTDRT lessons.

 

And they would be free to go out drinking with friends and meet members of the opposite sex without chaperones -- and we know that JB and J'chelle have instilled in them a belief that they will never be able to control themselves if given the slightest opportunity to deviate from the straight and narrow.

 

Strongly agree. I also think Gothard parents allow their children so little 'unsupervised' contact with the "outside world" because they know exactly what would happen if they did.  The kids would figure out - and quickly - that they have been poorly-educated and treated as free labor, among other things.

[JennDear77]

Jim Bob gets to dictate who the girls marry, but are the boys allowed to find their own wives? I'm just wondering why John David hasn't escaped yet. Or at least escape as much as a Duggar kid can, which is only by marrying, unfortunately.

[Jellybeans]

For about 12 years I have led a rather large Bible study group (about 24 people at any given time). We do not read straight through but we read individual books straight through right there together.

Thanks for this insight. Out of curiosity, why do Bible study groups never tackle the Bible from the beginning to the end? To me it is like selective reading. Read this book but not this one. I can't figure it out.

[mbutterfly]

Thanks for this insight. Out of curiosity, why do Bible study groups never tackle the Bible from the beginning to the end? To me it is like selective reading. Read this book but not this one. I can't figure it out.

I have done some "series" of books. We did Joshua through 2nd Kings, for example. And that took us about 6 months. We've done the Minor Prophets as a series. I have thought about doing the Torah as a piece but ended up doing only Genesis and Exodus (just did it with my Middle Schoolers, actually -- literally reading every word though I let them say "blank, blank" for the sexier verses and I read the begats for them. As we finish Exodus in November we'll read at least one or two of the Gospels, probably through Eastertide, see how the timing works.

With my group mentioned above we've just done the Gospels but ended with Luke so we could do Luke/Acts together. I factor in several things but don't jump around all that much. 

[Jellybeans]

thanks for answering my question!

[GEML]

There is also a lot of discussion about when certain books were written and in what order. To read the Bible straight through like a novel is one approach (my father did it with me as a child) but it probably isn't the best one, in all honestly. Seeing how sets of books go together and then work with later books in the New Testament as Mbutterfly mentions is much more rewarding. And some of the texts, such as Job and Esther, are really best read as stand alone pieces. (In my opinion)

[PityFree]

A great book to read if you are interested in the bible is Misquoting Jesus by Bart D. Ehrman. It's about how the bible came to be, what was left out when it was compiled, who wrote what, who edited/translated what and why, etc.

[RazzleberryPie]

Thanks for this insight. Out of curiosity, why do Bible study groups never tackle the Bible from the beginning to the end? To me it is like selective reading. Read this book but not this one. I can't figure it out.

Some do. The Bible isn't put together in chronological order, so some studies do go through it from the first book to the last, while others study individual books, books with similar themes (ie, comparing Matthew, Mark, Luke, John to study Christ's birth and ministry), books by the same authors (ie., Paul's writings), different verses about a similar topics (ie child rearing or helping the poor), etc. I was in a group that did the chronological approach once, and it was fairly confusing to think of things in that order instead of the way things are arranged, especially when you'd have some books that took place at parallel times, but were arranged far apart.

 

But you're right that a lot of churches/pastors/priests/leaders focus on their what they're familiar with or fixate on certain verses, ie. we had one little old lady who would've taught Adam and Eve skipping through the Garden of Eden, then all the animals boarding the ark,  and then Baby Jesus' birth, and skipped everything else, and I've been to churches were Every Single Week the sermon was on the evils of alcohol (it was a dry church, so why obsess so much), etc.

 

Others do Cover to Cover type classes, and I also did one of these. I think it took about 2 years to read and discuss the whole thing.

[GEML]

But you're right that a lot of churches/pastors/priests/leaders focus on their what they're familiar with or fixate on certain verses, ie. we had one little old lady who would've taught Adam and Eve skipping through the Garden of Eden, then all the animals boarding the ark, and then Baby Jesus' birth, and skipped everything else, and I've been to churches were Every Single Week the sermon was on the evils of alcohol (it was a dry church, so why obsess so much).

It's a not so hidden truth often passed off as a joke that whatever obsession the minister is fixated on is the current sin the minister is battling.

No shock that Gothard's sins (and those of his followers) are sex and needing to be in control of other people.

[mbutterfly]

It's a not so hidden truth often passed off as a joke that whatever obsession the minister is fixated on is the current sin the minister is battling.

No shock that Gothard's sins (and those of his followers) are sex and needing to be in control of other people.

As relates to Bill Gothard this has been playing around in my thoughts as well. There are strong indications that Gothard has had some serious weaknesses in terms relating to his sexuality and boundaries. That is, if reports are true. So he puts together a religious system that is all about people needing other people to control their sexual behaviors. It seems for him much of the Bible is focused upon human sexual impulses. Interesting. 

[RazzleberryPie]

It's a not so hidden truth often passed off as a joke that whatever obsession the minister is fixated on is the current sin the minister is battling.

No shock that Gothard's sins (and those of his followers) are sex and needing to be in control of other people.

Yeah, and that can be good or bad. A minister can be 'obsessed' or hyper focused on say, caring or widows and orphans, and talking about that every sermon, or on a particular 'sin'- which often indicates what they're struggling with.

[xls]

Since TLC has canceled Honey Boo Boo, because of June's association with a child molester why haven't they canceled 19 Kids because their peerless leader, goth supposedly can't keep his hands off under age girls? what's the difference if they (TLC) are trying to do the right thing?

[GEML]

I'll be honest, I think it's a huge difference. Bill Gothard doesn't come into the Duggar's home frequently, he's not a guest on their show, and all of the allegations are from many years ago and are, whether we like it or not, he said, she said, and may or may not even meet that legal standards for sexual assault.

All we have from the show's immediate impact is that Jana may or may not have perhaps been someone who might or might not have met some rather vague criteria that resulted in some ugly sexual power play while doing Journey to the Heart.

This does NOT mean that I don't believe the victims who have come forward, because I do. I believe them all. I think Bill Gothard runs a cult and is perverse. But this is by no means a cut and dried situation the way HCHBb was.

Believe me, I wish it were, not because I'm eager to see the show cancelled or the Duggars brought down (I'm actually not) but because this man continues to have more away within the Fundy/evangelical world than he deserves and I'd like to see HIM taken down.

[xls]

thanks for the reply. Whatever he has done will probably never come to light with all the brain-washed followers around him.

[GEML]

The interesting thing about cult leaders is that you don't actually have a lot of one-on-one personal interaction with the leadership. Not the way we think of it, anyway. Gothard may have been at Josh and Anna's wedding, but I actually don't know that for sure.

We do know that he has a stronger relationship with the Bates, as Bill Gates serves on the advisory board of the ministry. He was not only at one of the weddings (Erin's?) but shared in the celebration with a birthday cake. (I call that seriously bizarre. It's one thing to say you should focus the wedding day on Jesus, it's another to have to share it with icky old Bill Gothard!)

We also know he was at [The Fabulous] David Waller and Priscilla Keller's wedding, although not shown on television. Of course, David is his second in command and Priscilla worked for him (and some of us have speculated about the possibility that she may have been abused.)

The connection to the Duggars in very real terms are actually more tenuous than those of their friends. This gets back to one of the points I make every so often - in their world they aren't superstars, they are close to being sell-outs. It might be GOTHARD who wants little to do with them, not the other way around.

[WTFFF]

 

GemL, if you know, are they pacifists?

 

JimBob straight-up said he supported the war in Iraq in one episode, so, no, they're not pacifists.   (Not the person you were talking to, but I didn't see that brought up so I figured I'd throw it out there.)

[PityFree]

JimBob straight-up said he supported the war in Iraq in one episode, so, no, they're not pacifists. (Not the person you were talking to, but I didn't see that brought up so I figured I'd throw it out there.)

I wonder where he gets his news and learns about current events. Do they get a newspaper? Do they have a TV in their bedroom? Does the RNC just send him a list of talking points each morning?

[LazyToaster]

We do know that he has a stronger relationship with the Bates, as Bill Gates serves on the advisory board of the ministry. He was not only at one of the weddings (Erin's?) but shared in the celebration with a birthday cake. (I call that seriously bizarre. It's one thing to say you should focus the wedding day on Jesus, it's another to have to share it with icky old Bill Gothard!).

GEML, you seriously cracked me up. We're going to start an Internet rumor about Bill Gates. I don't know if that was auto correct or an intentional joke, either way it gave a laugh this morning.

I agree, who does things like singling out a guest for a birthday at their wedding. As creepy as Gothard must be, it probably wasn't his idea to do that.

Edited to fix spelling.

Edited October 28, 2014 by LazyToaster

[floridamom]

I, for one, am tired of this family picking on the Pope and Catholics in general. Don't they realize, agree or not with Catholicism, that this faith is the origin of all Christian faiths on earth today? If the Pope doesn't have the authority in Michelle's stated opinion, to interpret scripture, how does Bill Gothard or Jim Bob Duggar possess this gift?

 

Also, why can't the "Big Bang Theory" or other scientific theories have been the will of the Creator? We have absolutely no idea what that entity, power, or presence actually IS, do we? A very simple, father-like, human face was given to this entity because think back, thousands of years ago, what was the degree of the intellect of the average person? Not very advanced at that time, at all, was it? There was no printing press, most people could not read, so they told stories with pictures, hence the catholic church art work, etc...I'm not wishing to begin a lengthy discussion about the catholic faith in particular, but my point is the Duggars are quite close minded,, and juvenile minded to boot. I am tired to the Duggars snubbing other faiths, even other Christian ones. They need to educate themselves first before they choose to comment.

[mbutterfly]

I, for one, am tired of this family picking on the Pope and Catholics in general. Don't they realize, agree or not with Catholicism, that this faith is the origin of all Christian faiths on earth today? If the Pope doesn't have the authority in Michelle's stated opinion, to interpret scripture, how does Bill Gothard or Jim Bob Duggar possess this gift?

 

Also, why can't the "Big Bang Theory" or other scientific theories have been the will of the Creator? We have absolutely no idea what that entity, power, or presence actually IS, do we? A very simple, father-like, human face was given to this entity because think back, thousands of years ago, what was the degree of the intellect of the average person? Not very advanced at that time, at all, was it? There was no printing press, most people could not read, so they told stories with pictures, hence the catholic church art work, etc...I'm not wishing to begin a lengthy discussion about the catholic faith in particular, but my point is the Duggars are quite close minded,, and juvenile minded to boot. I am tired to the Duggars snubbing other faiths, even other Christian ones. They need to educate themselves first before they choose to comment.

Not disagreeing with you at all about respect for the Catholic Church, but the writings we call The Bible were done by people of an intellect and linguistic stature equal to Homer and Plato. 

[floridamom]

Yes, I agree that the writings of the bible were done by the scribes, and educated men of the time, but my point about those simplistic ideas were written that way on purpose so the average uneducated person of the time could grasp the concept...it was written for the recipients of the lessons to understand, the "wisemen" and rabbis of the time were on a higher educational level and knew that. The "word" had to be understood by the masses of people it was shared with.

BTW, mbutterfly,I enjoy reading your commentary as you are obviously a learned person. Thank you for all of your perspective and all that you offer here.

[Jellybeans]

JimBob straight-up said he supported the war in Iraq in one episode, so, no, they're not pacifists.   (Not the person you were talking to, but I didn't see that brought up so I figured I'd throw it out there.)

Well, 296 members of Congress voted yea on the Iraq War so Jim Bob was not alone in his support of the war. Most of us supported the war at that time but we like to forget we did.

[Almost 3000]

The Catholic Church is not the origin of Christianity.

[GEML]

There were WARS fought between Catholics and Protestants. And some fringe groups on both sides still verbally fight it out. I've been in services on both "fronts."

(And I apologize to poor BILL Gates when I obviously meant to type Gil BATES! LOL!!!)

[Jellybeans]

The Catholic Church is not the origin of Christianity.

No, but the Vatican sure holds a LOT of secrets... one of my secret dreams is to break into their vaults and release all.

[GEML]

Mine too, except that I don't read Latin!

[mbutterfly]

There were WARS fought between Catholics and Protestants. And some fringe groups on both sides still verbally fight it out. I've been in services on both "fronts."

(And I apologize to poor BILL Gates when I obviously meant to type Gil BATES! LOL!!!)

Well, the Bill Gates, Gil Bates thingy gave me a good smile today -- probably lots of others too. 

[Jellybeans]

Mine too, except that I don't read Latin!

A former friend of mine transcribes these documents- most are in ancient Hebrew and Arabic. One tidbit he told me is the "higher ups" do NOT like the translations as it contradicts their personal views of how things "should be". We lost touch some time ago, but I thought that was interesting.

[WTFFF]

Well, 296 members of Congress voted yea on the Iraq War so Jim Bob was not alone in his support of the war. Most of us supported the war at that time but we like to forget we did.

JimBob said this in 2008, not 2001.

[Jellybeans]

JimBob said this in 2008, not 2001.

My apologies.

[Ilovemylabs]

Will someone please fill me in on the story about Jana, Bill Gothard, and Journey of the Heart.  I see it referred to but don't know the background.  Thanks!

[DangerousMinds]

Well, 296 members of Congress voted yea on the Iraq War so Jim Bob was not alone in his support of the war. Most of us supported the war at that time but we like to forget we did.

"Most" I knew, including myself, absolutely did not.

[jcbrown]

Thank you, DangerousMinds. I am also not included in the "most" who supported that war, nor are many many people I know.

[GEML]

What we know is that Bill Gothard sexually assaulted several young women who had close contact with him at the island in Michigan over a number of years. When young women reported this, families tended to side with Gothard, their spiritual leader. The claims go back several decades, and were investigated once by his inner circle, although nothing came of that.

There is a website called recovering Grace where several of the stories are told anonymously.

We do not have ANY reason to think that Jana was singled out specifically, although she would have been there during the times it was going on. Priscilla Kellar would have as well. They have never come forward or made any such claim.

About a year ago, the board of the ministry removed Bill Gothard from the head as the stories became too numerous. (It was also when Doug Phillips of like-believing Vision Forum was going down for a sexual relationship with the babysitter.) He has issued some pseudo-type apologies. He recently launched a new "ministry" of some type.

Again, there is ZERO evidence that Jana or Priscilla were involved. But they are both a little different than their other siblings (nothing wrong with being different of course) and were the ones who spent the most time there so there has been some speculation.