Gimme That Old Time Religion

[riverblue22]

Courtship is not working for many of these fundies.  Maybe men like the Maxwell dad are looking for another way to send their SAHDs on their way to fulfilling their role in the cult.

[sometimesy]

8 minutes ago, riverblue22 said:

Courtship is not working for many of these fundies.  Maybe men like the Maxwell dad are looking for another way to send their SAHDs on their way to fulfilling their role in the cult.

These fools think courtship is too long. They don't seem to want ANY relationship before marriage.. sign the dotted line and get in bed. Makes courtship look reasonable. 

[Muffyn]

I find myself wondering if there is a breast size minimum that a girl has to achieve.  Is an AA cup enough to satisfy her husband?  Do they need to reach a full A first? If I was one of these daughters, I would bind my chest and hide that I had gotten my period to keep off the auction block.

[BitterApple]

These people are vile, disgusting monsters. I literally can't believe this shit exists in the 21st century. 

[louannems]

3 hours ago, Muffyn said:

I find myself wondering if there is a breast size minimum that a girl has to achieve.  Is an AA cup enough to satisfy her husband?  Do they need to reach a full A first? If I was one of these daughters, I would bind my chest and hide that I had gotten my period to keep off the auction block.

Haha!  I'm a AA cup, married nearly 30 years, successfully nursed 3 kids, and while my breasts may not have provided my husband with massive pleasure, they do give me intense pleasure!

[galax-arena]

Yeah, there is really no connection between the Ohlmans and the Duggars other than the fact that they both believe that birth control is teh evil. I think the media has just been assuming that since Ohlman believes in basic Quiverfull ideology - although I'm not sure if he's ever referred to himself as Quiverfull - that there must be some sort of connection with the Duggars. But the truth is Vaughn Ohlman most likely thinks that the Duggars are unbiblical wusses because the latter practices courtship instead of betrothal, consent be damned. 

ETA: FYI, this is Ohlman's personal blog. 

ETA 2: Just to give an example of how extreme Ohlman's beliefs really are, he thinks that Michael Pearl - of all people! - is too loosey-goosey.

Edited May 7, 2016 by galax-arena

[sometimesy]

1 hour ago, galax-arena said:

Yeah, there is really no connection between the Ohlmans and the Duggars other than the fact that they both believe that birth control is teh evil. I think the media has just been assuming that since Ohlman believes in basic Quiverfull ideology - although I'm not sure if he's ever referred to himself as Quiverfull - that there must be some sort of connection with the Duggars. But the truth is Vaughn Ohlman most likely thinks that the Duggars are unbiblical wusses because the latter practices courtship instead of betrothal, consent be damned. 

ETA: FYI, this is Ohlman's personal blog. 

ETA 2: Just to give an example of how extreme Ohlman's beliefs really are, he thinks that Michael Pearl - of all people! - is too loosey-goosey.

From the second link 

He is explaining how another website is combing over some of the stuff and comes to the wrong conclusion so to straighten it out:

"....they seem to think that we hold it as a doctrine that the young man and woman to be married can't have known each other before hand. We don't hold that. We do hold they don't have to have known each other before hand; and we do hold that it isn't Biblical to give them some kind of veto, etc." 

Way to clarify dum dum. 

We don't know how icky the Duggs actually are, but the whole Derrick meet my daugher online, and Bin chasing Jessa, the courtship, hand holding, kiss, were rules they felt could be shown on tv. I doubt they are this extreme. They could be much closer to bride sellers who go to Big Sandy instead of Let them Marry events, just more subtle. Some of the stuff I've read really lines up with Bin and his addition to the next book ... you don't need to be compatible. lol. 

Edited May 7, 2016 by sometimesy

[NewDigs]

On May 6, 2016 at 9:57 AM, Oh Margeaux said:

Really hate feeling this way, but this type of EXTREMISM in ANY religion almost makes me question the wisdom of our freedom of religion.

it sickens me that so many religions deem women second class citizens (despite their flowery rhetoric about female roles) at best and mere chattel at worst.

surely no almighty being would consider this crap ethical.

Imho this breast size thing moves these sickos beyond religion and into something possibly closer to child endangerment or prostitution. What about a 12 year old who has "blossomed"? What are the boundaries? These nutjobs don't seem to have any and don't seem to care. They flaunt this crap!

[Love2dance]

7 hours ago, louannems said:

Haha!  I'm a AA cup, married nearly 30 years, successfully nursed 3 kids, and while my breasts may not have provided my husband with massive pleasure, they do give me intense pleasure!

I know we are not on topic, but the good news is your boobies will not hang down to your knees like the rest of ours!

Back on topic, I found the LetThemMarry post horrifying. And that is what they announce publicly. Scary.

[GeeGolly]

And what criteria must a young man have to show that he is ready for marriage?

[kokapetl]

11 hours ago, sometimesy said:

From the second link 

He is explaining how another website is combing over some of the stuff and comes to the wrong conclusion so to straighten it out:

"....they seem to think that we hold it as a doctrine that the young man and woman to be married can't have known each other before hand. We don't hold that. We do hold they don't have to have known each other before hand; and we do hold that it isn't Biblical to give them some kind of veto, etc." 

Way to clarify dum dum. 

We don't know how icky the Duggs actually are, but the whole Derrick meet my daugher online, and Bin chasing Jessa, the courtship, hand holding, kiss, were rules they felt could be shown on tv. I doubt they are this extreme. They could be much closer to bride sellers who go to Big Sandy instead of Let them Marry events, just more subtle. Some of the stuff I've read really lines up with Bin and his addition to the next book ... you don't need to be compatible. lol. 

In what situation is a veto unbiblical?

ETA: I read more of the website. He's all about betrothal, but he's not into forced marriage? But he thinks the only godly way to get married is for a single person to ask their father to go find them a spouse and be committed to marry whoever they are "gifted" with by daddy?

Edited May 8, 2016 by ingenting

[Churchhoney]

"You don't have to be compatible." Having it all veer toward child prostitution. Both logical outgrowths of this "Christian patriarchy" crap. In each mega-family you have one dumb, greedy arrogant jerk deciding everything for everybody. In other words, wiping out the personhood of everybody he fathered so he can move them around like chess pieces to serve his own ends.

And this is what God wants, because it'll bring on the Kingdom of Heaven. They're horrible, horrible -- and really really stupid -- people.

[crazycatlady58]

I think it is beyond   weird   that father's are looking  at their daughters  breasts ,thinking about how big they are Icky , icky , icky .  A father   should   not   think   about   his daughter's breasts at all.

Edited May 8, 2016 by crazycatlady58
auto correct does not read my mind.

[SometimesBites]

This shit needs to make it onto some mainstream news source, pronto. These people are no different than Warren Jeffs and child brides in Afghanistan, et al. This is a hideous and horrendous usurping of basic human rights.

[Muffyn]

10 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

And what criteria must a young man have to show that he is ready for marriage?

Pubic hair?  I'd go with nocturnal emissions but I think we know those are of Satan and should never be discussed.  This idea of marrying off children because they meet the minimum physical requirements to have children is horrifying.  And yeah, having fathers monitoring their girl's breast development to determine if they are ready for matrimony is soooo creepy.  It is right in line with the purity balls and girls being almost betrothed to their fathers before daddy passes them off to the next man. 

[Sew Sumi]

Josh Harris apologizes for the negative effects of his seminal book for fundie purity, "I Kissed Dating Goodbye." It's taken 20 years, but he's left all that is familiar and seems to be starting over from ground zero. I hope his obnoxious brothers, one now in law school, follow suit someday. 

Great article from Libby Anne, as usual. 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2016/05/josh-harris-apologizes.html

[louannems]

Just wow!  And isn't Elizabeth Esther the author of a book I read: Girl At The End Of The World? Such a good book on growing up in a Fundamental cult, then leaving.

[Sew Sumi]

I didn't make that connection, but damn, that's even more awesome. It makes my heart happy when we find out that these people have come to see the error of their ways, and actually move to make amends. 

Will a Duggar ego ever be so moved? It took Harris until he was 40, but better late than never. This does give me hope that some Duggar will one day see the light. Not soon, but someday. 

[Happyfatchick]

Arwen, SURELY there was a Southern Baptist in Texas.

[Arwen Evenstar]

6 minutes ago, Happyfatchick said:

Arwen, SURELY there was a Southern Baptist in Texas.

Indeed.Southern and Independent appeared to be the most prevalent types.

[louannems]

My BIL is assistant pastor to a HUGE (4th largest congregation in US) 2nd Baptist, in Houston.  Ever hear of 2nd Baptist?  

[Happyfatchick]

Most certainly!  My brother was a member of 2nd Baptist in a town near here for years!

[Arwen Evenstar]

Yes, I've attended services there before.  The pastor is pretty cool.

[kokapetl]

A megachurch?

[Arwen Evenstar]

2 hours ago, ingenting said:

A megachurch?

Yes, it indeed qualifies as a mega church! Had 27k members in the late 90s. Not everyone went at the same time of course. Most singles groups had outings or Bible study available every day of the week.  They now have 3 or 4 campuses as well as the flagship campus.  It doesn't feel huge....it felt rather surprisingly  personable.  You could wear pants and the singles groups had dancing outings.

Lakewood is another one and Grace also qualifies. 

[kokapetl]

On 15 May 2016 at 1:26 AM, Arwen Evenstar said:

Yes, I've attended services there before.  The pastor is pretty cool.

He must have looked larger than God himself on the Jumbotron!

[NewDigs]

And I bet he felt larger than God himself.

[Sew Sumi]

Oh man. This is potentially devastating to the plaintiffs in the Gothard case. The old fucker may well skate yet again. 

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/media/gibbs-dismissal.pdf

eta: In plain English: 

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/05/23/lead-attorney-for-plaintiffs-disqualified-from-bill-gothard-sex-abuse-case/

Edited May 24, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[kokapetl]

What a shady lawyer. 

Quote

Gibbs, in turn, argued that his involvement with Gothard was strictly on behalf of his plaintiffs. While Gibbs admitted that his goal was to get Gothard reinstated on the IBLP board, he claimed this was in order to better aid his clients

[Sew Sumi]

He totally sold his clients down the river. He also fucked up Lourdes Torres' case against Doug Phillips, which was also recently dismissed with prejudice. 

This guy was totally not what he represented himself to be, but actually a mouthpiece for Gothard, IBLP, and fundies. I hope he gets disbarred for this. 

Good on the judge allowing the plaintiffs to seek other counsel. There must be enough evidence for this case to continue. 

[GeeGolly]

I'm confused. This Gibbs lawyer was representing the folks suing Gothard, but he is actually a Gothard supporter?

Please tell me I have this wrong.

[Sew Sumi]

Yup. He bamboozled everyone. The conflict of interest here is mindboggling. 

[kokapetl]

1 hour ago, Sew Sumi said:

He totally sold his clients down the river. He also fucked up Lourdes Torres' case against Doug Phillips, which was also recently dismissed with prejudice. 

This guy was totally not what he represented himself to be, but actually a mouthpiece for Gothard, IBLP, and fundies. I hope he gets disbarred for this. 

Good on the judge allowing the plaintiffs to seek other counsel. There must be enough evidence for this case to continue. 

They shouldn't have trouble finding new representation.

The Judge, in the transcript

 

Quote

I've had -- quite honestly, I've had a couple of cases about alleged sexual interaction with religious entities and this, that, and the other.

It's kind of bizarre in little white bread DuPage County I've had a bunch of these, but I've had a bunch of these. So there's other attorneys that are around, and I don't think the constitutional argument of whether they have their due in court or not raises anything.

Edited May 24, 2016 by ingenting

[Sew Sumi]

One of the victims posted on the Homeschoolers Anonymous thread. Reading between the lines, she sounds like she's going to continue with this. 

[Micks Picks]

I think I heard a Judge handing down a directive today insisting that due to the lies and misrepesenation the Dept of Justice made in immigration matters, they would be required to take ethics classes every single year, buy ethicists unaffiliated with the Dept of Justice, and give proof, yearly, in order to appear in court again..Well, finally one small step for ethical and truthful stements to sworn advocates of the court.

[GeeGolly]

Does this mean that Gil Bates and others knew the Gibbs lawyer was doing this? I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that this happened. It is effed up beyond belief. 

[Churchhoney]

21 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Does this mean that Gil Bates and others knew the Gibbs lawyer was doing this? I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that this happened. It is effed up beyond belief. 

Hard to tell at this point. But it always did seem quite odd that this guy was the lawyer chosen, since his FATHER is a very well known attorney-champion of Gothard types in sexual-misconduct and other situations and was involved with the Gothard board in their supposed "investigation" of the Gothard sexual-abuse allegations. Read this piece about the lawyer's father to get a feel for how very odd it was that this lawyer would be the lawyer you'd pick to go after Gothard. http://heresyintheheartland.blogspot.com/2014/03/david-gibbs-jr-investigating-gothard.html

Here are a few choice facts about the lawyer's father:   'Gibbs, whose Christian Law Association has been described as "the Fixers for fundamentalism"'    

'Gibbs' firm was also general counsel for Accelerated Christian Education (a.k.a. School of Tomorrow) for over 20 years. According to Johnny Scaramanga at Leaving Fundamentalism, Gibbs served as president of A.C.E. after founder Donald Howard was forced out by scandal. (A.C.E. was the curriculum used at IBLP's Indianapolis Training Center to "homeschool" minors in their care.)'

'David Gibbs, Jr. is also the attorney for First Baptist Church in Hammond, Indiana. When their pastor Jack Schaap confessed to an illicit relationship with a minor from his church in July 2012,'

'Now it seems the IBLP board is counting on David Gibbs, Jr. to conduct an "investigation" into the allegations against Bill Gothard.'

If I were trying to fight Gothard, I would not have hired this guy's son and namesake as my lead attorney. But I suppose it may just demonstrate how incestuous and myopic this whole "community" is that that's who they ended up with. It's all very weird, in any case.

It's the lead plaintiff who's posted over on Homeschoolers Anonymous. And here's what somebody wrote in response, recommending lawyers who may not have Gothard-loving first-degree relatives:   Gretchen, many, many people are hoping that you get justice. Adam Horowitz has represented victims of Fundamental Baptist pastors and has experience with the IFB culture, almost identical to the Gothard culture. He specializes in clergy sex abuse cases in all denominations. The law firm that represented the victims of Russell Hirner (Longview Baptist Temple, Longview TX) pulled out a win for their clients in civil court. The lawyer’s name was Stewart Smith, I believe. I don’t recall his law firm. I can find it again for you if you want it. It’s hard to believe that the Gibbs clan didn’t engineer this on purpose.   https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/05/23/lead-attorney-for-plaintiffs-disqualified-from-bill-gothard-sex-abuse-case/

[kokapetl]

Gibbs Jr is actually quite senior, I think it's one person, not father and son. 

[Churchhoney]

12 minutes ago, ingenting said:

Gibbs Jr is actually quite senior, I think it's one person, not father and son. 

No. It's father and son. The lawyer just dismissed from the Wilkinson case is David Gibbs III, not this guy. The son has portrayed himself as taking a somewhat different approach to these people and groups than his father has, while still saying he remains within the overall fundamentalist, homeschooling world. That's why he was considered acceptable. He was within the world but supposedly capable of being a critic. He's still arguing that that's what he is, but the validity of his claim is obviously now more in question. The judge, for one, doesn't believe it.

Here's the younger Gibbs, who was the one just dismissed in this case:

http://www.ncll.org/about/david-gibbs-iii-president

https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/10/24/attorney-david-gibbs-iii-discusses-the-iblp-lawsuit-and-answers-important-questions/

Edited May 24, 2016 by Churchhoney

[kokapetl]

13 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

No. It's father and son. The lawyer just dismissed from the Wilkinson case is David Gibbs III.

http://www.ncll.org/about/david-gibbs-iii-president

 

 

https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/10/24/attorney-david-gibbs-iii-discusses-the-iblp-lawsuit-and-answers-important-questions/

This is David Gibbs III:   http://www.ncll.org/about/david-gibbs-iii-president

Damn weirdos. Unique names are good. This makes things extra confusing. 

Edited May 24, 2016 by ingenting

[Churchhoney]

27 minutes ago, ingenting said:

Damn weirdos. Unique names are good. This makes things extra confusing. 

No kidding. I think they may be confused themselves! Surprised they don't describe themselves using a few "begats." being biblical patriarchs and all.

[Minivanessa]

Holy carp. What a mess. Here's what the judge said near the end of his ruling (bolding is mine): 

Quote

Whether the actions of attorney Gibbs are “strict” ethical violations of the Illinois Code of Professional Responsibility or not, there is clearly a clouded, convoluted and inappropriate set of interactions that attorney Gibbs had among the entire set of circumstances and parties pertaining to the litigation now pending before this Court. Therefore, it is completely and utterly inappropriate for attorney Gibbs to continue as legal counsel for the plaintiffs.

Boom.

Doesn't the Bible say something about a man not being able to serve two masters at the same time? That's essentially what professional ethics rules say about lawyers and clients. You can't straddle the fence when you're representing people in lawsuits/disputes/transactions. You're on (and in with) one side or the other. This guy's activities, as described by the judge's ruling, ought to be jaw-dropping to anyone with experience working in the legal system. 

[Aja]

After reading I Fired God, as weird as this whole thing is, I believe it. They have absolute power over their victims. I could easily see Gibbs being the lawyer "God chose for her" or some other such nonsense. The reach these people have in the political arena is disturbing. Jocelyn Zichterman describes doctors, lawyers, law enforcement officers, city council members all connected with the IFB and therefore "safe" to go to with any problem. It really is that blatant, so once again it is totally bewildering that they are apparently immune to the law. It also tickles me to hear them bleat about Christian persecution when they can literally beat the shit out of their kids and sexually abuse young girls and nobody will touch them because Jesus. I would hope something concrete would come of this but I doubt it. 

Edited May 24, 2016 by Aja

[Arwen Evenstar]

On May 17, 2016 at 6:35 AM, ingenting said:

He must have looked larger than God himself on the Jumbotron!

Actually, he's a very humble man, in comparison to most Southern and Independent baptist ministers I've seen.

[Vaysh]

The more I read about Gothard, Dough Phillips is a tool, and their ilk the more they all seem like Scientologists with added Jesus.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Vaysh
words mean things

[Arwen Evenstar]

I googled Russell Hirner of Longview Baptist and I got this link that I followed...

http://peterruckmantalks.blogspot.com/2011/04/evidence-of-extreme-manipulation-and.html

it has to be read to be believed just how effed up some of these Fundy churches and their batshit crazy followers are.  Thanks, Churchie.  You are awesome.

[Churchhoney]

42 minutes ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

I googled Russell Hirner of Longview Baptist and I got this link that I followed...

http://peterruckmantalks.blogspot.com/2011/04/evidence-of-extreme-manipulation-and.html

it has to be read to be believed just how effed up some of these Fundy churches and their batshit crazy followers are.  Thanks, Churchie.  You are awesome.

We are all awesome!

Edited May 24, 2016 by Churchhoney

[sometimesy]

Would they have hired this lawyer because they were convinced that his inside knowledge would help them win their case?  It has to be one of the most stressful times of their lives, and without support it has to be a big decision right now whether or not they choose to carry on. 

[Churchhoney]

32 minutes ago, sometimesy said:

Would they have hired this lawyer because they were convinced that his inside knowledge would help them win their case?  It has to be one of the most stressful times of their lives, and without support it has to be a big decision right now whether or not they choose to carry on. 

I think that's kind of how he sold himself. If you look through the comments on this post about Gibbs   https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/02/20/desperate-attempt-david-c-gibbs-iii-fires-back-against-bill-gothard-iblp/   it seems clear, though, that just exactly who and what he is, what his loyalties and ideas are and how competent or incompetent he is as a lawyer is all very much a mystery.

I would guess that he was mainly hired here because even for people who've tried to wrest themselves away from this isolated world of Gothard and Gothardlike homeschooling fundiness, the walls must still be up and they don't often see or look very far beyond those walls for other possibilities, no matter what the issue. It wouldn't be surprising if this were the case. From my own experience, I know that, for some people at least, even after those who trapped you are gone, once you've spent a certain number of years trapped you'll go on trapping yourself in the same way for many years into the future, and maybe forever. So the fact that he was of the same world as these women could make him seem like the best choice for a lawyer, rather than potentially the worst.

 

  https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/02/20/desperate-attempt-david-c-gibbs-iii-fires-back-against-bill-gothard-iblp/

[Churchhoney]

The ugly, lying story of David Gibbs III.     Can't even imagine what's going to happen with those poor people in the anti-Gothard lawsuit. How will they trust anyone, even -- maybe especially -- themselves, after experiencing this kind of betrayal on top of the original betrayals? I always thought it was nuts to choose this lawyer, despite of the way he portrayed himself, but at least some of them obviously thought it was a good idea. And when somebody who's been treated like less than dirt makes a mistake it can easily make them want to withdraw from everything. I sure hope the case goes forward, but thinking of the additional damage this has to have caused the victims makes me sick. Damn the Gothardites altogether.

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/05/24/the-fixer/

'Through his National Center for Life and Liberty (NCLL), Gibbs III has positioned himself as an advocate for the abused as well as an individual sensitive and empathetic to those injured by Christian fundamentalism. As Gibbs III told HA’s Ryan Stollar in January of this year, “I vehemently oppose child abuse and those that cover it up with a passion, and I believe that organizations that emotionally, psychologically, physically, or sexually abuse children should be prosecuted and shut down.” Now that he has become one of the primary business partners of the Great Homeschool Conventions, the largest for-profit homeschool convention company in the United States, Gibbs III’s platform and reach is spreading.[x]

'Yet some have questioned this positive image of Gibbs III. Despite his current advocacy for survivors, he spent decades doing the exact opposite: serving as a fixer for abusers and defending leaders who spread Christian fundamentalism. Through his work and leadership with his father David C. Gibbs Jr.’s organization, the Christian Law Association (CLA), Gibbs III built a career out of defending accused child abusers. And as recently as last year, Gibbs presented sermons at churches arguing that not only parents, but schools, churches, and even complete strangers have a “fundamental right” to child corporal punishment—which he referred to as “child-beating.”[xi]

'This discrepancy has raised concerns. Gibbs III’s current NCLL website makes no mention of his involvement with the CLA, including the fact that he was their general counsel. In his interview with HA blog partner Julie Anne Smith on May 26, 2014, he completely separated his father and the CLA’s work from his own work, making it seem that he was not involved with the former.[xii] However, when pressed on this matter, Gibbs III told HA, “I worked with my father and did legal work for CLA from 1993-2012.”

'...On May 20, 2016, Judge Kenneth L. Popejoy disqualified Gibbs III from the Bill Gothard sex abuse case, Gretchen Wilkinson v. IBLP. Gothard and IBLP had filed motions the previous February claiming that Gibbs was “playing both sides of the street” in the case. One of the motions contained an affidavit from Roger Blair, who was present when Gibbs first approached Gothard to talk about the abuse allegations. Blair alleged that Gibbs III offered to help Gothard derail the allegations against him. Blair testified that, “Mr. Gibbs spoke as if he were connected to the individuals behind Recovering Grace and had inside knowledge that would be valuable to Bill. I recall Mr. Gibbs saying, ‘I know how to handle it.’ He stated that Bill ‘was wronged’ and that it was unfair that ‘people are trying to destroy your ministry as well as other ministries.’ Mr. Gibbs stated that he read allegations on the Recovering Grace website and he knew that they were false. He said that he knew how to adequately respond to ‘get rid of it.’”[lxxxvii]'

 

The Schiavo case was another of his gigs, apparently, so you can see why they might have thought of him as a very high-powered lawyer whom they were lucky to have representing them:     

"Gibbs is best known for his work on the nationally reported Terri Schiavo case in Florida.

"Gibbs represented Schiavo's parents in an attempt to keep her alive through a feeding tube after she was diagnosed as being in a persistent vegetative state. Schiavo's husband wanted to pull the plug."

http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/20150603/news/150609914

Edited May 25, 2016 by Churchhoney