Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Wordsworth]

It's not about not supporting a church, it's about not being held accountable by a church.  A church congregation would consist of different types of people, some of whom probably don't think it's wrong for girls to wear skirts or for kids to go to college or for adult children to move out, date and marry someone not hand-picked by dad.  By having the church in the home or, in this case, a satellite of home essentially, the Duggar kids are surrounded by like-minded families that do things the exact same way Mom & Dad do them.  

 

It's a principle of IBLP.  It isolates children from families that don't do things the way they do them so they are not exposed to other influences, even other Christian influences.  

[GEML]

It's not about not supporting a church, it's about not being held accountable by a church. A church congregation would consist of different types of people, some of whom probably don't think it's wrong for girls to wear skirts or for kids to go to college or for adult children to move out, date and marry someone not hand-picked by dad. By having the church in the home or, in this case, a satellite of home essentially, the Duggar kids are surrounded by like-minded families that do things the exact same way Mom & Dad do them.

It's a principle of IBLP. It isolates children from families that don't do things the way they do them so they are not exposed to other influences, even other Christian influences.

Bingo. The Duggars already "tithe" in giving to Gothard and his ministries. It's about power that they disdain other churches.

[Happyfatchick]

Funky rat, my dad was raised Amish. I have many many Duggarish relatives still in the Amish. The Duggars remind me a LOT of the Amish, and I could debate this all day. I won't (because zzzzzzzz), but I'm not sure the general population realizes the lengths the Amish go to, to live in this society. They cheat all over the place and if you call them on it, they just laugh. (They don't have electricity, but they almost all have gas lights that give the same light. Most of them also have a deep freezer on a nearby farm with electricity. They don't have cars but rarely are out in a horse and buggy in the dead of winter, and have a driver they can have on site in minutes.). But the basic principles are hard core, and they go to great lengths to protect their values. They don't do birth control either, but whereas I have two aunts that gave birth to and raised 15 and 13 children - THEIR children are only having 4 or 5. No "birth control", but the ones of my generation have obviously figured out some methods that are working. The amish insulate themselves from outside influences and are staunch about their beliefs. To me, this is commendable. More power to them. There are "levels" of Amish. Old order is now Old Old order, and then there are different sects of regular old order, and there are sects that refer to themselves as the New Order. (They have cell phones! But never land lines because they come into the house through wires...). Right above the New Order are the Duggars. The Duggars are basically Mennonites without coverings. There! I said it!

The funny thing, Galax, is that you defended imperialism when what really caught my brain matter was "inherently". To me, inherent means a "trait", or something you have no control over - as in: I am inherently stubborn. It's a character trait (to me only). So inherently imperialistic is almost an oxymoron. But, really who cares? You're probably right (although I am a little stubborn).

Oddly enough, I make my living directly from the American film industry, so whatever they're doing, I hope they keep doing it!

[Happyfatchick]

May I assume they are reading the New King James Version published post-Dead Sea Scrolls? If so, it would be as accurate as any I believe. I use several translations -- enjoy it very much. NKJV is certainly not my go-to, but it has many strengths. I have this horrible feeling they use KJV instead, though. Does anyone have a thought on which? 

Surely they are using the KJV. My brother (who fancies himself to be a fundie preacher) will debate full on for HOURS about the KJV being the one and only acceptable form of God's word on the planet. Someone made a reference to Boob's "preaching" the other day, saying he could only be acceptable within his own family, a captive audience. So ironic to me, as the family joke for years has obviously been that my brother's only success has come from his prison ministry precisely because they are a captive audience. Haha!

He also has a bumper sticker that reads in bold letters "KJV: God's final authority!" Which cracks me up. I mean if He's God, one would assume that He would be His OWN final authority.

I'm gonna throw out this disclaimer: I love my brother. I do! Bless his heart.

[GEML]

Oh, hooray! Someone else who sees the Amish-Duggar similarity! (My "godfather" - not that we used that word - had been raised Old Order Amish and my "godmother" was strict Mennonite, so I knew lots of people in these cultures).

[DangerousMinds]

The Amish "cheat all over the place?" Do tell!

[Happyfatchick]

The Amish don't cheat on their spouses any more than (and maybe quite a bit less) the non-Amish community. I meant they "cheat" on their lifestyle. I gave examples of it with the electricity and the drivers. They have a washing machine in their basement (the old timey kind with the squeeze rollers, called wringer washers) run with a gas engine like a lawn mower engine. My uncle (still living) made a vast fortune building race horse barns. He doesn't drive; he's Amish. However, in the name of his company, he can have 10 white vans and 10 Amish boys currently enjoying Rumspringa and they can drive him anywhere he wants to go. Same uncle for years had a huge sword fish mounted and hanging above the bed in his bedroom. Couldn't have that hanging downstairs where a church member might see it. The Amish are well known for keeping separate and secluded from the rest of us heathens - but as a rule, they LOVE to travel. A different uncle traveled all over the U.S. with his family. Amazingly, SOLAR PANELS are becoming more and more accepted among the Amish. (I find this SO interesting). Somehow, because these panels are collecting solar energy and converting it to usable power without WIRES coming into the house, they are acceptable. I was in an old order house last summer and commented on a regular orange Home Depot extension cord hanging from the ceiling. She (my cousin) laughed and pointed at the ceiling. Solar panel, she explained. When I was little, they all had ice boxes. Those have been replaced by gas powered models. They all used kerosene lanterns at night, all replaced by gas. The Amish have a tradition of building a smaller house, or at least rooms onto their own house called a Dawdi Haus (or Grandpa House). The oldest son usually takes over the "big" house at some point and tends to his parents until they die. If, however, the oldest son has left the Amish, or there is no one to provide the Dawdi Haus, one of the kids will build onto their own house or provide the parents housing. If the place provided has electricity - then HOT DIGGITY DOG - the elderly couple (or parent) gets to live out the end of their days pushing a button to make the a/c come on. Anyway, it's not interesting unless you were raised in or near it. The original point (which was so lost) was that the Amish take credit for living such secluded lives - and given the fish bowl the Duggars have chosen to swim in, I'm not sure they get to "cheat" on the particulars like the Amish. An Amish girl in Rumspringa will MANY times leave home in Amish garb, change to jeans and put on makeup and party herself stupid all night, change clothes and come back in the house like nothing happened. They aren't even sneaking around, they just can't leave home or come back in jeans. I don't imagine any one of the Duggars could get by with that same thing. Can you even imagine the tsunami? I apologize for the lengthy post. I told you it was boring!

[Micks Picks]

Boring, oh no, I was enthralled and entranced.  

[Sunnybobs]

Are the Duggars immersed in a similar community like the Amish? Does the ATI group and fellow mega fundi families fulfil that role? I'd be fascinated to know how the Duggars are perceived within their own community. And I'm never ever bored reading about the Amish! That was fascinating - I think that's a large part of the Duggar appeal to the tv fans isn't it, their difference and how they stay separate from mainstream culture.

[galax-arena]

I don't imagine any one of the Duggars could get by with that same thing.

Haha, yeah, I think the idea of rumspringa would make the Duggars quake in their boots, honestly. 

[andromeda331]

Haha, yeah, I think the idea of rumspringa would make the Duggars quake in their boots, honestly

 

 

Because if they let their kids out they know they'd never come back. Not having to spend all day cooking and cleaning? Not have to sleep in a room with all your brothers? The freedom to do what ever they wanted?

[Wellfleet]

Are the Duggars immersed in a similar community like the Amish? Does the ATI group and fellow mega fundi families fulfil that role? I'd be fascinated to know how the Duggars are perceived within their own community. And I'm never ever bored reading about the Amish! That was fascinating - I think that's a large part of the Duggar appeal to the tv fans isn't it, their difference and how they stay separate from mainstream culture.

 

Personally I find it curious how the longer the show goes on, and the more money Boob accumulates, the closer they become to mainstream culture. For kids whose access to the Big Bad Internet was once severely-limited or outright-blocked, they're certainly all over it now.

[GEML]

Yes, and it's making an impact on the children no matter how hard they all pretend that it's not. And I've commented before about how much I think it's impacted their marriage choices, and not for the better.

[Sunnybobs]

Yes I see that they're becoming much more mainstream - the girls are always shown with iPhones etc in hand but I just wonder if they see themselves as still maintaining that separate lifestyle. Do they still fit in at the big ATI conferences or are they too celebrity now for many of the families? Yes I can't see the show helping with any marriage prospects - too mainstream and greedy for the fundi culture and too uneducated and limited for the conservative Christian power elite. Josh has done the best with Anna so far.

[Cherrio]

Yes, and it's making an impact on the children no matter how hard they all pretend that it's not. And I've commented before about how much I think it's impacted their marriage choices, and not for the better.

When it comes to the Duggars, impacted is a perfect description.    Terminally impacted.

[Happyfatchick]

...the girls are always shown with iPhones etc in hand...

There was a picture that surfaced maybe last week of Jill (still preggers) and some other people (I think some of the sisters) around her. Late in the pregnancy. I can't remember the occasion, but I do seem to remember all the family was there. The whole tribe. And there was Jill with one hand on top of her belly, clutching that IPhone. I remember thinking... WHO is she expecting to hear from if they're all right THERE with her??? They really do always have the phone in hand. My husband would love it if I would take up that habit. Must be my age. About twice a day, I have to say "Call my phone, please, I can't find it." (About the age thing - I don't mean that I'm having bouts of early Alzheimers, I meant that I grew up without a cell phone implanted in my palm and can't uquite seem to get the hang of keeping it glued to me day and night. In fact, after all these years of having one, I'm not sure I like having that stupid thing within reach all the time.)

[Wellfleet]

Quote from GEML:

The thing that's weird is that I'm not so sure that Gothard doesn't appreciate science and art himself. He is very well educated, and there is no getting around that he's an intelligent, and well read person. Charismatic leaders often are.

 

True enough, but whether Gothard is well-educated or appreciates math, science, history etc isn't really the question here. By his teachings it's more than evident that he doesn't want his followers to value it. One element common to nearly all those who "found" cults is that they tend to isolate their followers, want to control most or all of what they're exposed to, and do not want to see them well-educated. The more educated people become, the more they tend to question the world around them. Ray Bradbury said "You don't need to burn books to destroy a culture - just get people to stop reading them..."

[kalamac]

When it comes to life - not just religion - I say, never trust someone in a position of power who wants to keep you uneducated.

[cmr2014]

I posted a snippet from this article on another thread because it pertained to something that was being discussed there, but it really belongs here.

 

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/largerhope/Gothard.htm

 

This was posted on the site of someone named Robin Phillips. Perhaps someone else knows who this is, or how reliable s/he is. I found it interesting, and hope that someone who knows more about Gothard will read it and comment.

[Abstract]

Robin Phillips is the son of Michael Phillips, an author of Christian historical fiction.

[Mrsjumbo]

I do think as the generations go on, the rules are getting more lax. I can't imagine Jill or Jessa dressing their future daughters in the Little House on the prairie dresses, or having no tv, or insisting on the shoulders & knees being covered (Jessa's coming pretty close to flouting that rule). Mac was wearing pajamas! And pajama pants at that!

[Happyfatchick]

I went to Bill Gothard seminars as a youth when they were held at the Omni in Atlanta. My mother was a HUGE Gothard fan and I'm pretty sure she thought she was saving my life. I've been multiple times. Anyone else? Show of hands?

[Wordsworth]

I was invited to a Basic Seminar by my dad & stepmother back in 1992.  I attended, thought some of the ideas were interesting, but that Gothard seemed a little old-fashioned.  I put the red book on a shelf and didn't think much of it.  I even met Gothard himself once.  Sitting in a church where he was speaking, I found myself next to him.  He asked me about myself, found out I was going to college and asked me why I would do that.  I got the impression that it was a rebuke rather than genuine interest.  But, again, I brushed it off as just him being old-fashioned.

 

Keep in mind that my family is conservative evangelical.  For me to consider someone old-fashioned is saying something.

 

Flash-forward two years later.  My marriage ended, I pulled out the red book, read a few things and decided I wouldn't remarry.  I also prayed and fasted on my anniversary date every month that my marriage would be restored.  After a year, God told me that my spouse was not coming back and to move on.  The red book went back on the shelf. I think it went into the Goodwill pile at some point.

 

I live in Indianapolis, IN and remember the news articles about the training institute and the problems there.

 

After several years, I remarried and have been happily so since then.  It wasn't until I discovered www.recoveringgrace.org last year that I got the rest of the story (as Paul Harvey used to say) of the lasting impact that Gothard's misuse of scripture has had on countless lives.  I began to recognize within the last year how that very brief exposure to him has affected my spiritual life.  I realized that I had begun memorizing scripture based on the ideas in that red book (starting with his favorite, the book of James).  I realized where I had placed obstacles in my growth; been judgmental; took some of his stories at face value.

 

I was never a member of IBLP nor did I know anyone who was.  I wore pants, I listened to modern music, I went to movies and watched tons of television. 

 

That's my Gothard story.  I attended exactly one Basic Seminar over 20 years ago.  That's it.  But he had an impact on my spiritual life for almost two decades.  

 

My exposure to him and his teachings was as minimal as it could be. Can you imagine Joshua, John-David, Jana and the others?  They have been raised with this.  They didn't get their first exposure as a young Christian age 22.  They got their first exposure at birth and it's been reinforced for years through their parents, through their participation in IBLP/ATI events, through their parents' association with like-minded families.  If I've had to unlearn what I have learned, where would they even begin?  Would they recognize the need to do so?  These kids are victims.  They've been sold a bill of goods and given virtually no way out.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Wordsworth

[Happyfatchick]

I posted a snippet from this article on another thread because it pertained to something that was being discussed there, but it really belongs here.

 

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/largerhope/Gothard.htm

 

This was posted on the site of someone named Robin Phillips. Perhaps someone else knows who this is, or how reliable s/he is. I found it interesting, and hope that someone who knows more about Gothard will read it and comment.

I read that whole essay last night (lifelong insomnia). From a girl who was fed Gothardism as a means of shaping my future, I can vouch that this information is pretty much dead on. Gothard himself is very soft spoken and his delivery is such that one automatically is practically mesmerized by his authoritative approach. He uses circles and arrows and simple diagrams designed to make it seem very simple to follow God's plan. And as any youth (or any simple minded adult) in any Christ based church will happily tell you, knowing God's plan for your life is the key to the universe. If you are at a place in life where you are vulnerable and searching, it's not a stretch at all to leave the seminars feeling like you now understand your place in the overall scheme of life, and as long as you follow God's principle's for life (as laid out by Gothard), you will be successful. Financially, emotionally and spiritually - you have the keys.

I had a friend named XXXXX who was my BESTIE from Jr High until college. She also attended the seminars with me. Her future husband was in our crowd as well, although we didn't know that then. She poked fun at me then for taking it all so seriously. I wish I had space to talk about their lives together now. Oncethey began to realize they could have a future together and began (and continue to drink the koolaide together... Oy.

[zenme]

Oncethey began to realize they could have a future together and began (and continue to drink the koolaide together... Oy.

 

LOL! Happyfatchick, you make it sound so romantic...

Edited April 29, 2015 by zenme

[Happyfatchick]

I hope this gets posted right below my other post so it will make sense.

Gothard has this principle that he teaches (and has been taken and used liberally by countless others). This is the principle of forgiveness. He teaches that to experience freedom from bitterness, you must forgive your transgressor. You must go to them and say, "_______, when we were in third grade, you looked up my dress at recess. I've harbored resentment for that for years. I want you to know I have forgiven you for that."

Having been the recipient of a couple of those awkward "forgiveness" moments myself, I can tell you that this offer of faux forgiveness isn't about releasing burden and freeing the bestower of said forgiveness at all. It is a vehicle only.

I'll explain. Shortly after my Bestie, XXXXX, married her fellow koolaide partner, they withdrew from our circle of friends. Both had been enormously popular, XXXXX was wild and crazy in our youth group. The go-to girl for fun. She was model pretty and edgy. I adored her and we were peas and carrots until she married. I helped her do flowers for her wedding. About a month later, I had an event and needed flowers. I tried to reach XXXXX but couldn't. Spoke to her mom about borrowing the silks (in a pile on her mom's dining table) for my weekend event. Her mom said, Sure! She won't care as long as she gets them back. (Now remember,I was her best friend for YEARS. I'd been with her to select those flowers. And silks were all the rage back then, don't be hating!) I picked up the flowers, used them and returned them in the same condition. Then over the years lost contact with XXXXX.

One day at work probably 15 years later, I get a phone call from XXXXX. She talks differently somehow - more precise and guarded. (And now, 15 years further down the road, I look at the date on my computer 50 times a day but still remember that conversation.

She: "I just wanted you to know I've forgiven you for using my wedding flowers." [THIS IS THE GIRL I shared EVERYTHING with. Dates, spoons, funny moments, sneakiness, snarkiness, fears, tears, wishes on stars, pillows, sports, gassy moments, craziness..]

Me: Huh? That bothered you???

She: Yes, you didn't ask.

Me: I couldn't FIND you! I asked your mom, and I brought them right back!

She: But. You din't ask ME. They weren't hers to loan. Those were my wedding flowers.

Me: I'm so sorry, XXXXX! I can buy you new ones if I can make it up to you!

She: I didn't want "some" flowers. I wanted to use THOSE specific flowers from my wedding in my home".

Me: So... what do you want me to say or do here?

She: Nothing. I just wanted to let you know that God has laid it on my heart to forgive you for that.

I told that lengthy story to illustrate a Gothardism. Where in the Bible is this? Yep, the Bible does indeed stress forgiveness. And truly, forgiveness is key to a relationship. But the part where you put on your best superiority hat and confront the person who wronged you... is this true and Biblical? I assert it is not. But well intentioned Gothardites practice this every day!

When you boil it down and look at it objectively, that practice does absolutely NOTHING to edify, love or show God's love to the offender (flower stealer!). The purpose serves only to "superioritize" the bearer of said forgiveness, and to allow them to unload grudges like a silent Guilt Grenade.

[galax-arena]

She: "I just wanted you to know I've forgiven you for using my wedding flowers."

Oh my god, I'm sorry, but that entire story is hilarious! And I thought that I could hold a grudge...

[Wellfleet]

I hope this gets posted right below my other post so it will make sense.

Gothard has this principle that he teaches (and has been taken and used liberally by countless others). This is the principle of forgiveness. He teaches that to experience freedom from bitterness, you must forgive your transgressor. You must go to them and say, "_______, when we were in third grade, you looked up my dress at recess. I've harbored resentment for that for years. I want you to know I have forgiven you for that."

Having been the recipient of a couple of those awkward "forgiveness" moments myself, I can tell you that this offer of faux forgiveness isn't about releasing burden and freeing the bestower of said forgiveness at all. It is a vehicle only.

I'll explain. Shortly after my Bestie, XXXXX, married her fellow koolaide partner, they withdrew from our circle of friends. Both had been enormously popular, XXXXX was wild and crazy in our youth group. The go-to girl for fun. She was model pretty and edgy. I adored her and we were peas and carrots until she married. I helped her do flowers for her wedding. About a month later, I had an event and needed flowers. I tried to reach XXXXX but couldn't. Spoke to her mom about borrowing the silks (in a pile on her mom's dining table) for my weekend event. Her mom said, Sure! She won't care as long as she gets them back. (Now remember,I was her best friend for YEARS. I'd been with her to select those flowers. And silks were all the rage back then, don't be hating!) I picked up the flowers, used them and returned them in the same condition. Then over the years lost contact with XXXXX.

One day at work probably 15 years later, I get a phone call from XXXXX. She talks differently somehow - more precise and guarded. (And now, 15 years further down the road, I look at the date on my computer 50 times a day but still remember that conversation.

She: "I just wanted you to know I've forgiven you for using my wedding flowers." [THIS IS THE GIRL I shared EVERYTHING with. Dates, spoons, funny moments, sneakiness, snarkiness, fears, tears, wishes on stars, pillows, sports, gassy moments, craziness..]

Me: Huh? That bothered you???

She: Yes, you didn't ask.

Me: I couldn't FIND you! I asked your mom, and I brought them right back!

She: But. You din't ask ME. They weren't hers to loan. Those were my wedding flowers.

Me: I'm so sorry, XXXXX! I can buy you new ones if I can make it up to you!

She: I didn't want "some" flowers. I wanted to use THOSE specific flowers from my wedding in my home".

Me: So... what do you want me to say or do here?

She: Nothing. I just wanted to let you know that God has laid it on my heart to forgive you for that.

I told that lengthy story to illustrate a Gothardism. Where in the Bible is this? Yep, the Bible does indeed stress forgiveness. And truly, forgiveness is key to a relationship. But the part where you put on your best superiority hat and confront the person who wronged you... is this true and Biblical? I assert it is not. But well intentioned Gothardites practice this every day!

When you boil it down and look at it objectively, that practice does absolutely NOTHING to edify, love or show God's love to the offender (flower stealer!). The purpose serves only to "superioritize" the bearer of said forgiveness, and to allow them to unload grudges like a silent Guilt Grenade.

 

Extremely interesting post. Provides a lot of pertinent background into the Duggars and why they could be the way they are. IMO, they definitely come off as believing themselves to be superior to the rest of us. And maybe it's just me, but I've always felt like people who work so hard to make others believe they're the best people in the room are usually really trying to convince themselves of that fact. Reminds me of Margaret Thatcher's line: "Power is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't..." People who have to keep on pointing out how wonderful they are,  are in reality coping with some truly-serious inferiority complexes. 

Edited April 29, 2015 by Wellfleet

[Happyfatchick]

There is one more "forgiveness episode" in my life as a direct result of Gothard teachings and wanted to share that to, at the risk of beating to death one single aspect of Gothardism.

I left my first husband (we marred when I was 17 because we'd known each other sine birth and our parents pushed us together. It's not my parents' fault AT ALL that I wanted to marry so young - but when I look back now from the years under me, I wonder WHY didn't they STOP that!?!?!? How on earth could that have been a good move?

Anyway, we divorced after about 10 years because he was still up to his eyeballs in BG and I had begun to swim to the surface (so to speak). We were no longer a good match.

A dear friend of mine called me out of the blue one day several years post divorce and says she wants to meet up with me. When we both arrive, almost without preamble, she says:

I just wanted to tell you that God has laid it on my heart that I need to forgive you for divorcing _____.

Weell, by then I'd been to this rodeo and had an idea where to hold on.

I said "Now I appreciate that, I really do. I can see that you're nervous, and I imagine it took some courage to say that to me. The thing is and I'm not trying to hurt you here, [NOTE: I probably was secretly hoping for at least a small wound] but I didn't divorce YOU. I didn't upset any apple carts in your family life. I appreciate your "forgiveness" but I'm just not sure why this was necessary. For me to acknowledge this forgiveness indicates I should be humbled, making me your inferior somehow. I don't feel inferior. I also don't owe you any details, but for the people I hurt (namely ______ and his parents and siblings) I have made that slimy crawl back to each of them and thrown myself at their mercy and asked for forgiveness. I was humbled, I meant it, I've made my peace. Furthermore, the fact that you came here with the gift of forgiveness indicates you believe I owe YOU some sort of apology as well. I've already apologized as much as I'm going to until I'm standing before God Himself. I'm sorry you were hurt on the periphery, but that's as close as I can get."

[Happyfatchick]

BTW, in my first "forgiveness post" about the flowers, I used the word "superioritize". I may have made that up. If so, I want brownie points for expanding the English language!

[JenCarroll]

BTW, in my first "forgiveness post" about the flowers, I used the word "superioritize". I may have made that up. If so, I want brownie points for expanding the English language!

Brownie points granted. :-)

The basic premise is almost right. A good way to let go of resentments is to forgive whoever hurt you. It's not even a specifically Christian concept, or a religious idea at all. It's exactly what my psychiatrist advised me years ago, and she and I are both (a) Jewish and (b) atheists. But it's an internal thing. You let it go, and then you're not carrying the weight of that anger anymore. You don't need to involve the other person; it really has nothing to do with them. It's your own choice to hold onto that grudge or not.

But if your actual goal is to insult the other person while asserting your moral/spiritual superiority over them, this seems like it would work quite well.

[Happyfatchick]

Yes, JenC and that's the way it's presented. Examples given in the seminars. You don't actually let GO of the burden of bitterness, you are actually presenting your offender with the opportunity to come to Jesus and make right. (So I guess in reality, it's not about letting the offense go, it's about bringing the offender back to Jesus). The first time, when my flower friend hit me up with that, the EXACT thought that went through my head was "Wow. I was sitting right THERE beside her at the BG seminar when she learned that." It felt so odd to be on the receiving end! I mean... there I was in that first seminar when I was 15, learning how to live a Godly life (according to Gothard Godly), swallowing down koolaide as fast as anybody on my row. YOU know how you are at 15, you WANT to please SOMEBODY!!! And then years later to have it right-back-atcha'd into my face, I was amazed. Over FLOWERS!!! No, this isn't taught through Gothard as a method of letting go: it's really a way of proving one's superiority over the forgivee.

I never did get the hang of that principle. (THERE'S a Gothardism: Principle. Everything is a Principle.) I've never been one to hold grudges. I look at someone years after they've done something offensive and think, "I don't think I'm supposed to like you much, but I can't really remember why..."

And THANKS for the brownie points. A new word! (Just watch, somebody smart like GEML will come along and tell us how that word's been in use since the earth cooled!)

[JenCarroll]

Well, I have a BA in linguistics from an Ivy League university and I say the brownie points stand. ;-)

[salvame]

Validation for why I will never watch this show again: (hopefully I have it in the right topic - if not, mods, please move :) )

 

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/04/29/josh-duggar-christians-who-cant-discriminate-against-gays-are-victims-of-discrimination-video/

 

Shut up, Josh.  Your stupid is showing.

[JenCarroll]

Oh I am so tired of that idiocy. Hey Josh, if you're not in favor of gay marriage -- don't marry a guy. There, problem solved.

[SomePity1066]

And THANKS for the brownie points. A new word! (Just watch, somebody smart like GEML will come along and tell us how that word's been in use since the earth cooled!)

Well, I have a BA in linguistics from an Ivy League university and I say the brownie points stand. ;-)

Well, I'm ALL for Brownie points ! Kudos to JenCarol and Happyfatchick for their posts !  My thoughts exactly...

 

And I have two degrees, undergrad and Master's, and still can't figure out WTF is going on in this freak show with the Gothard connection. 

 

My dear, dear father, gone now for seven years, gave me the very best piece of advice about religion, among many, many others, but this applies to the Duggars in particular...

 

ETA:  And I'm now sorry I posted this. Mucho off-topic, too personal. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.

 

 

 

"Never join a religion where the leader, prophet, sage, or conduit is still alive. Mark my words, honey - give 'em a hundred years to get their shit together..."

Edited April 30, 2015 by SomePity1066

[GEML]

You can have brownie points from me! ;)

We were talking about Gothardism recently, when the Duggar show came up. (My sister and I were giving each other a side hug and laughing about it.). My father was appalled that we even knew who he was. "We tried to make sure you girls never were pulled into all that!"

Now, you'd have to know about all of the stuff my parents wanted us pulled into to know just how hilarious that comment struck us, but it is true that even on the religious Fundy crazy factor, Bill Gothard can turn it up to 11.

[Wellfleet]

You can have brownie points from me! ;)

We were talking about Gothardism recently, when the Duggar show came up. (My sister and I were giving each other a side hug and laughing about it.). My father was appalled that we even knew who he was. "We tried to make sure you girls never were pulled into all that!"

Now, you'd have to know about all of the stuff my parents wanted us pulled into to know just how hilarious that comment struck us, but it is true that even on the religious Fundy crazy factor, Bill Gothard can turn it up to 11.

 

Wow. This news makes me even more astounded that no one seems to be investigating or even just publicizing the Duggar link to Gothard's whole deal. Other than the tabloids, of course. Ironic - they finally say something credible and true, and it's difficult to get anyone to believe them.

[GEML]

Gothard has been investigated within the evangelical community. And Gothard had been attacked by people within that world. But it's really insider baseball, that unless you're deeply within those circles, you're not going to know it. And honestly, there's actually a lot of attacking that goes back and forth, so unless someone does something really egregious, it can get pretty dull. Everyone is pretty sure their interpretation is more inspired, if not flat out right and the others are wrong.

Edited May 1, 2015 by GEML

[phoenix62]

The Amish don't cheat on their spouses any more than (and maybe quite a bit less) the non-Amish community. I meant they "cheat" on their lifestyle. I gave examples of it with the electricity and the drivers. They have a washing machine in their basement (the old timey kind with the squeeze rollers, called wringer washers) run with a gas engine like a lawn mower engine. My uncle (still living) made a vast fortune building race horse barns. He doesn't drive; he's Amish. However, in the name of his company, he can have 10 white vans and 10 Amish boys currently enjoying Rumspringa and they can drive him anywhere he wants to go. Same uncle for years had a huge sword fish mounted and hanging above the bed in his bedroom. Couldn't have that hanging downstairs where a church member might see it. The Amish are well known for keeping separate and secluded from the rest of us heathens - but as a rule, they LOVE to travel. A different uncle traveled all over the U.S. with his family. Amazingly, SOLAR PANELS are becoming more and more accepted among the Amish. (I find this SO interesting). Somehow, because these panels are collecting solar energy and converting it to usable power without WIRES coming into the house, they are acceptable. I was in an old order house last summer and commented on a regular orange Home Depot extension cord hanging from the ceiling. She (my cousin) laughed and pointed at the ceiling. Solar panel, she explained. When I was little, they all had ice boxes. Those have been replaced by gas powered models. They all used kerosene lanterns at night, all replaced by gas. The Amish have a tradition of building a smaller house, or at least rooms onto their own house called a Dawdi Haus (or Grandpa House). The oldest son usually takes over the "big" house at some point and tends to his parents until they die. If, however, the oldest son has left the Amish, or there is no one to provide the Dawdi Haus, one of the kids will build onto their own house or provide the parents housing. If the place provided has electricity - then HOT DIGGITY DOG - the elderly couple (or parent) gets to live out the end of their days pushing a button to make the a/c come on. Anyway, it's not interesting unless you were raised in or near it. The original point (which was so lost) was that the Amish take credit for living such secluded lives - and given the fish bowl the Duggars have chosen to swim in, I'm not sure they get to "cheat" on the particulars like the Amish. An Amish girl in Rumspringa will MANY times leave home in Amish garb, change to jeans and put on makeup and party herself stupid all night, change clothes and come back in the house like nothing happened. They aren't even sneaking around, they just can't leave home or come back in jeans. I don't imagine any one of the Duggars could get by with that same thing. Can you even imagine the tsunami? I apologize for the lengthy post. I told you it was boring!

It wasn't boring in the least. Thank you for sharing. I find it very interesting!

Gothard has been investigated within the evangelical community. And Gothard had been attacked by people within that world. But it's really insider baseball, that unless you're deeply within those circles, you're not going to know it. And honestly, there's actually a lot of attacking that goes back and forth, so unless someone does something really egregious, it can get pretty dull. Everyone is pretty sure their interpretation is more inspired, if not flat out right and the others are wrong.

It's good someone is investigating this cult. Now do you mean in the sense of abuse, or something different?

[GEML]

On charges of heresy or whether or not it's a cult or whether it's people are abused. Technically, Gothard doesn't answer to anyone, but he does want to remain in community with the larger evangelical/Fundy world from which he came.

The abuse issue is something else altogether. That's something he that should be investigated by law enforcement. It's a legal matter, not a spiritual one. (It is spiritual, but keeping it within that sphere is in no one best interest.)

[HumblePi]

The following are excerpts from an article written by J.M.Bishop

http://powderroom.jezebel.com/how-are-the-duggars-dealing-with-the-gothard-sex-scanda-1581883720

 

The Duggars are by far the most famous adherents of Bill Gothard's teachings and in turn, they consider the show a ministry to teach the world about the wonders of the Christian side hug. They are the most special Gothard snowflakes outside of Bill himself.

 

They adhere to a religion that emphasizes womanly modesty above all else because they blame women FOR EVERYTHING. Because men are sinful and all their superior brain power can't help them decide to keep it in their pants. There was a scene where Jim-Bob was worried that Jordyn's dress was too short. Jordyn was THREE years old at the time. And the dress fit— she hadn't outgrown it clearly, but it showed too much leg for a three year old. Even young children are seen as objects of sin if they aren't sufficiently modest. Another episode had Michelle Duggar water-skiing in her modesty bathing suit and when her knees were showing, she had the producers put a black bar over them because they were exposing something that was private. Knees are for Jim Bob only, not for the lascivious knees fetishistic public.

 

It is well known among Gothard's that the kind of crunchy, curly home-permed hair favored by Michelle and the clan in the early season is based on preferences of Gothard, who loved long, wavy womanly hair and damn the woman who does not possess sacred this crown.

 

Here they are in their pinafore wearing glory in their first special, 14 Kids and Pregnant filmed in 2003:

https://youtu.be/I5nGQE-pqnI

[DangerousMinds]

Interesting article, thanks!

[GEML]

It's interesting, but I don't think she watches the show. She is far too kind to Michelle.

[Wellfleet]

It's interesting, but I don't think she watches the show. She is far too kind to Michelle.

 

Agree - she is much too kind to Me-chelle. I'm hoping she's planning an article on Me-chelle's whole deal for another time. But it absolutely sounds as though she watches the show. She makes numerous references to things that happened on various episodes.

[GEML]

It seemed pretty sporadic to me - someone who watched a couple of episodes and thought they understood the premise as opposed to a regular viewer. But that's me.

[Happyfatchick]

IIRC, there is a bible verse somewhere that states women should be mute in church.

Yes, there is a verse that says women should be quiet in church.  I taught a humongous Bible class for married couples for awhile, and was so conflicted about this I asked the pastor.  And from his answer is where I've adopted most of my own religious issues.  He told me, "Paul was speaking to a specific group of women who had become very vocal and disruptive during religious services.  We can't always adapt letters they were writing to address specific issues 2000 years ago; cultures change." 

 

But isn't Gothard interested in converting new followers to his righteous path? LOL.

I know GEML already addressed this so I'll be brief and say this from the standpoint that I've been there.  Christians (and ONLY Christians) can find IBLP seminars and such and be taught Gothard's tightly streamlined and rigid belief system.  He's not on the end of converting that makes, say, a Muslim, LDS member or an atheist or agnostic see the error of their ways* to follow him.  He doesn't "preach" ie a Billy Graham or someone who is trying to rescue and redeem sinners from eternal damnation.  Gothard's message is ONLY for those who are believers already.  His greatest strength has been youngish (perhaps a little wobbly) Christian men.  His soft voice and assurance that he absolutely knows the truth, and it's THIS easy... makes those young guys open wide and swallow all the medicine.  There is no alter call.  No fire and brimstone.  There is a dedicated laser beam into the minds of very young men like Dilly and Dullwald.  It's a commitment by these young men to raise their families according to these plans A), B) and C).   From the little I've caught up on in my couple weeks, I'm betting cold hard cash that Binjerman is all in.  After the birth of his first child and a little more IBLP, he's never straying and I bet he quits wearing shorts very soon.  (I hate that too, as I felt like that was a spark of individuality speaking). 

*first denominations (or non religions) that came to my mind, nothing more intended

 

Admittedly, it works best when your young wife is sitting there with you and is drinking that koolaide just as greedily as you are.  She WANTS her man to be the ruler and king of the house and she WANTS to follow his every morsel of wisdom because she's basically off the hook.  She has to have babies, raise them to be koolaide drinkers.  She wants to nod a lot, look at her husband with reverence, never ever talk him down (even to her mother or best friend).  The husbands word is as good as gospel.  She doesn't have to think for herself ever, ever again.

 

The prairie dresses were totally appropriate, really.  Used to own some of those myself.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[KatWay]

 

We can't always adapt letters they were writing to address specific issues 2000 years ago; cultures change."

You know how many problems would be solved if more people remembered this and weren't so adamant about following every single rule as stated in these holy books. Some of it is ageless, some of it is clearly based on a culture that doesn't exist anymore (thankfully). Humanity evolves, if God had wanted humans to stay the exact same way forever, he wouldn't have given us brains to explore new ideas.

[GEML]

Good write up about Gothard. He's not evangelical. He doesn't think he should go to the masses. He thinks God should call you to HIM. It's a subtle but important difference.

Not sure about Ben and Jessa. Jessa has definitely been influenced by Ben's Calvinism, so they may go the other way. It may be less about dress and home decorating and more about actual theology. Not that the theology is going to be any kinder is more inclusive, mind you. Old style Calvinism is pretty harsh.

[becca3891]

It's interesting that Ben's family don't appear to be Gothardites, but they most definitely are deeply entrenched in fundamentalist Christianity, including the headship of men and also seem to have the same views on "trusting God with their size of your family" and skirts/dresses for women. And of course homeschooling. The hardcore Calvinism is a new addition for Jessa, as Baptists don't believe in it. I grew up in a fundie Calvinist church and the rigidness of the doctrine seemed to really appeal to a certain type of young man with angry tendencies. Ben is very lovey-dovey now because he finally is having sex with the woman he's been lusting after but I can picture him having a temper too. They will probably never have to worry about money thanks to the TLC gravy train, but if not for that, I can totally see a few years going by with his so-called windshield business that has been dropped completely in favor of TLC money, a few young children, an increasingly disenchanted Jessa, and an angry and possibly violent Ben.

 

Just to be clear, I am NOT accusing him of being violent. I just am uneasy about him.