Gimme That Old Time Religion

[msblossom]

But you don't look to anyone outside or above the congregation for decision making do you? The titles may change, but the internal rules remain. I'd be pretty surprised to see that in a Baptist church (although there are so many off-shoots, it could happen!)

Ah, you are correct GEML, no one outside makes the decisions, but we do function within a network of churches, if that makes sense. If we have denominational issues that we are unable to abide by we can cease to function within the network and go rogue.

[floridamom]

I have some thoughts on the Duggars and their statements and beliefs about themselves. Here goes:

The Duggars are under the impression that they are strong Christians.

They also profess to follow the bible and their church is a bible based one.

I beg to differ here. From what I have observed on their TV show in their statements, in their belief system and lifestyle I believe that they, in reality are WEAK Christians. I say this because of their cement block built in protection system for everything they do ie, multiple bible verse readings and lessons throughout every day, accountability talks, accountability partners, their dress, averting their eyes in public, the list goes on. If they were truly STRONG Christians, they would have freedom to actually move about the world without watchdogs along with them, they would be allowed to be alone, ("when no one is watching") they wouldn't need constant reminders of what scripture says about this and that, their dress would conform to personal comfort, not rules, their sons would be able to "resist" visual temptation at the sight of a female in a pair of modest shorts at the mall. A strong Christian doesn't need these protections and guards in their physical lives and activities. They are strong in themselves and rise up to the spiritual challenges or thoughts and prove to themselves that they CAN RESIST. They don't succeed because of inner spiritual strength, they "falsely succeed" because success is guaranteed them in their strangulation of being on a short, guarded leash.

Their church services, being private, invitation only, not run or organized by any real ordained clergy, and not validated by a real connection to a real spiritual institution, is NOT a bible based church, it is a church which promotes the Gothard principles that we have heard about. So not Christian, IMO.

Posters, I hope I didn't ramble on  here, but I am trying to make my point. What do you think about their "Christian strength"? I see them as being weak.

[dillpickles]

I have some thoughts on the Duggars and their statements and beliefs about themselves. Here goes:

The Duggars are under the impression that they are strong Christians.

They also profess to follow the bible and their church is a bible based one.

I beg to differ here. From what I have observed on their TV show in their statements, in their belief system and lifestyle I believe that they, in reality are WEAK Christians. I say this because of their cement block built in protection system for everything they do ie, multiple bible verse readings and lessons throughout every day, accountability talks, accountability partners, their dress, averting their eyes in public, the list goes on. If they were truly STRONG Christians, they would have freedom to actually move about the world without watchdogs along with them, they would be allowed to be alone, ("when no one is watching") they wouldn't need constant reminders of what scripture says about this and that, their dress would conform to personal comfort, not rules, their sons would be able to "resist" visual temptation at the sight of a female in a pair of modest shorts at the mall. A strong Christian doesn't need these protections and guards in their physical lives and activities. They are strong in themselves and rise up to the spiritual challenges or thoughts and prove to themselves that they CAN RESIST. They don't succeed because of inner spiritual strength, they "falsely succeed" because success is guaranteed them in their strangulation of being on a short, guarded leash.

Their church services, being private, invitation only, not run or organized by any real ordained clergy, and not validated by a real connection to a real spiritual institution, is NOT a bible based church, it is a church which promotes the Gothard principles that we have heard about. So not Christian, IMO.

Posters, I hope I didn't ramble on here, but I am trying to make my point. What do you think about their "Christian strength"? I see them as being weak.

The Duggars Christian strength is about as real as MEchelles hair.

[3girlsforus]

I see what you are saying floridamom. I agree. I try to avoid labels like 'strong' and 'weak' Christian since I figure that's between their hearts and God, but I do see what you are saying. I think it's a symptom of losing track of what Christianity is all about. God sent Jesus to die for our sins so we wouldn't have 'live by the law'. But instead of resting in that security they have fallen victim to legalism. They make all of these rules to try to prove they are great Christians. They decide the more rules, the better Christians they are. Legalism breeds pride and fear. 

[GEML]

I'm always a little hesitant when people use terms like legalism and fundamentalism to say that makes a person a strong or weak Christian, because to me, the difference is whether that person has made those decisions for herself (strong Christian - one who follows principles) or one who allows those decisions to be made by others and simply follows them (weak Christian).

I would probably agree that the Duggars are weak Christians because they don't seem to know WHY they follow many of the rules they do other than a few canned phrases that they recite like robots. They don't seem to have a nuanced and sometimes frustrated relationship with scripture which most strong Christians have because it's true that it must be approached with discernment as well as just looking at the words, and that's something that comes with time and wisdom - and we are all impatient people.

But I can tend to be a bit fundamentalist FOR MYSELF and rather legalistic in the way that I (and I alone) have chosen to live. But I don't think anyone would think this makes me a weak Christian, and I doubt that what those decisions are would fall where most people think they fall, if that makes ANY sense at all. :)

[3girlsforus]

I'm always a little hesitant when people use terms like legalism and fundamentalism to say that makes a person a strong or weak Christian, because to me, the difference is whether that person has made those decisions for herself (strong Christian - one who follows principles) or one who allows those decisions to be made by others and simply follows them (weak Christian).

I would probably agree that the Duggars are weak Christians because they don't seem to know WHY they follow many of the rules they do other than a few canned phrases that they recite like robots. They don't seem to have a nuanced and sometimes frustrated relationship with scripture which most strong Christians have because it's true that it must be approached with discernment as well as just looking at the words, and that's something that comes with time and wisdom - and we are all impatient people.

But I can tend to be a bit fundamentalist FOR MYSELF and rather legalistic in the way that I (and I alone) have chosen to live. But I don't think anyone would think this makes me a weak Christian, and I doubt that what those decisions are would fall where most people think they fall, if that makes ANY sense at all. :)

 

Yes that makes lots of sense. I don't think being legalistic (or fundamentalist) makes anyone a strong or a weak Christian. The problem with the legalism I see with the Duggars is that they have replaced Jesus with the legalism. Rather than allowing their faith to guide them to decisions about the way they choose to live, they use their rules as the fundamental measurement of Christianity. People who live like they do are good Christians. People who don't are the evil, fake, secular Christian. So they control and sequester and manipulate their children into the identical lifestyle to be sure they are "good Christians" and can check off all the rules they are following. But Christianity is about a personal relationship with Christ. They don't help their children develop that relationship, let them grow in their relationship and establish their own Christian life. Instead they control their lives, creating a life for them that requires they follow the rules the Duggars deem so central to godliness. They are more concerned that their kids follow these legalistic rules than that they grow into an independent relationship with Christ. 

[WTFFF]

There's a lot of talk about the requirements to be a "professional" missionary (for lack of a better term) in the Jillard thread, and I have a question (hopefully someone will see this here!)  Does it generally require a large amount of education and money (beyond what the usual voluntourists need for plane fare, etc) to go into that line of work?  I ask because it was the career goal for pretty much all the Howlers, and I'm wondering how the hell they ever planned to come up with that kind of money.

 

Though it's possible they were just saying whatever came to mind because none of them really had any future aspirations beyond reality TV whore.

[Sew Sumi]

There are few, if any, requirements for being a Gothard-style missionary. You basically just volunteer yourself and stay at one of the many training centers they have set up all over the world. Or, you go as a family, like the Wallers did to Mongolia. I suppose the leaders of the training centers might have gone to the Gothard Bible "University" (using that word loosely; it's the place Brandon Keilen just graduated from last November), but aside from that? I doubt any formal education is required. 

 

I am actually impressed that the Southern Baptists require such rigorous training; I suspect other sects do as well, but I am not familiar with their requirements. Anyone else who knows what say, the Presbyterians, require, please chime in! I'm very interested in the differences in training. 

[GEML]

If you are going under the auspices of a mainline or evangelical church, the training and preparation are much like the Southern Baptist described above. After all, this is a career choice as well as a ministry - you will be receiving money from the church, as well as benefits. Until recently many MKs (missionary kids) were sent to boarding schools at church expense while parents were in the fields, but now most are home schooled or able to attend local schools. But this requires someone on the couple prepare for that training as well.

It's by no means a fly by night Gothard-like or two week pay your own way mission trip.

[Rhondinella]

I can't speak at all to what the Gothardites require of missionaries.  But I did some short-term missionary for my Protestant denomination so I can speak to how some groups work at least.  In my denomination there are two kinds of missionaries: volunteers, who go on their own dime, or money they raise, and usually for a limited amount of time (less than 2 years); and full-time appointed missionaries, who have to go through the training and education demanded by the organization, as well as other vetting, and then are assigned to a field with the idea of being there long-term.  Full-time or "career" missionaries are fully financially supported by the church so they don't have to raise their own support (at least in my denomination this is true.  It's not for all)  They also have housing provided wherever they end up.

 

So, to be a volunteer missionary you don't usually have to have a lot of training or a specific level of education, depending on what you are going over there to do.  If you're wanting to do medical work or education, then, yeah, you'd need the relevant degrees.  But if you're just wanting to work with full-time missionaries to help them in what they do you may not necessarily need a specific educational background.  Regardless, though, everyone who volunteers overseas has to go through some training seminars.  This category of missionaries do have to provide all their own financial resources for transportation and room and board while overseas usually. They can raise the money by soliciting donations from people and/or churches that might want to support them.  Some people are able to pay it out of their own pocket, but most have to have some kind of help.

 

Career missionaries, obviously don't have to invest a lot of their own money usually (except to get whatever requisite education might be required).  Once they are trained and commissioned they are completely provided for in terms of housing, salary, and often transportation (resources to buy a vehicle if needed, for example). Again, this is the way my denomination and some others, but not all.  Many churches and non-denominational missions organizations require all missionaries to raise their own support whether career or volunteer.  This can put a large strain on career missionaries, as you can imagine, as they have to spend a lot of time worrying about getting and keeping donors.

 

Hope that helps a little.

[Sew Sumi]

John Shrader, Anna's brother-in-law, is currently a missionary in Zambia. No training, just "called" by the Lord to do this. As many of you may know, he dragged his (then) pregnant wife - Anna's sister Esther - and 8 kids along for the ride. He is "sponsored" by several churches, independent of one-another. I think most are IFB, but  they are definitely not mainstream. He appears to write up facebook posts and a monthly "newsletter" to his supporters and anyone else who wants to read about his adventures, but most of his posts have a thinly hidden agenda of seeking more money. He has already wasted church pledges on a plane that has never arrived, and a printing press that he had shipped over from the States, as well as a fairly new Troupie. Lots of large-ticket stuff he could have found in Zambia for far less. I am bothered that no one seems to question this (or if they do, maybe he deletes their posts). What's worse is that he's been there for over 6 months and only has one confirmed convert. REALLY? 

 

Who allows charades like this to continue without any real accountability? eta: His last post indicates how much he misses his tools back home. *hint hint*

Edited January 12, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[DangerousMinds]

Do any of these ever consider the Peace Corps? At least they do necessary and useful work in their overseas communities.

[GEML]

Peace Corp would be putting yourself under the authority of a government program. That's out on multiple levels.

[Rhondinella]

John Shrader, Anna's brother-in-law, is currently a missionary in Zambia. No training, just "called" by the Lord to do this. As many of you may know, he dragged his (then) pregnant wife - Anna's sister Esther - and 8 kids along for the ride. He is "sponsored" by several churches, independent of one-another. I think most are IFB, but  they are definitely not mainstream. He appears to write up facebook posts and a monthly "newsletter" to his supporters and anyone else who wants to read about his adventures, but most of his posts have a thinly hidden agenda of seeking more money. He has already wasted church pledges on a plane that has never arrived, and a printing press that he had shipped over from the States, as well as a fairly new Troupie. Lots of large-ticket stuff he could have found in Zambia for far less. I am bothered that no one seems to question this (or if they do, maybe he deletes their posts). What's worse is that he's been there for over 6 months and only has one confirmed convert. REALLY?

Who allows charades like this to continue without any real accountability? eta: His last post indicates how much he misses his tools back home. *hint hint*

 

 

Yes, this is an example of the problems that can arise when missionaries are not responsible to a larger central denomination or organization.  This sounds like he's doing "independent" missionary work, probably for a denomination which doesn't have much in the way of a centralized structure anyway.  These missionaries do send out newsletters at least partly as a ploy to solicit money, because that's literally the way they support themselves.  So that's not surprising.

 

If he were part of a more centralized organization, there would (presumably) be oversight for how the money is spent, etc.  At least I know there is in my denomination. They actually have pretty strict rules about how it can and can't be used, and how much you are allotted to spend on specific big-ticket items (like cars, etc.)  I suppose in this less structured system the only checks and balances would be from the donors themselves.  If they don't like what the missionary is doing with their money, they can stop donating.

[PityFree]

Off topic from missionaries (sorry - the thought just came to me): The more boys the families in the QF movement have, the faster it will fall apart, IMHO. One of the biggest weaknesses in QF/Gothard is that men must work for themselves (but not be educated) and own their own homes before they can court and marry. The movement is already showing the negative impact of this in just one generation. You can watch Boob struggling to find employment for his uneducated sons. He can only buy so many planes. I don't consider the sons of the GF/Gothard movement "catches" and I am sure most fathers in the GF movement wouldn't consider them catches for their QF daughters either. 

[Sew Sumi]

"Duggar Studios," ie. Howlers making videos, posted this earlier today. It encapsulates the notion of the "tourist mission" school of thought. Handing out tracts that the boys may not even be able to read, or lollipops that only give fleeting pleasure, don't do a whole lot to help these people. 

 

 

Pa Seewald is starting to post daughter Jessica's "journal" from the trip. So much Ugly American in it that I'm very embarrassed. I'm not sure that bringing children under 18 is the best idea (she's 17). I get WHY they do it, but she's not really showing much of a "servant's heart" in this posting.

 

http://seewalds.com/mission-to-central-america-jessicas-daily-journal-part-1/

[BitterApple]

As much as I want to snark, Jessica's comments are probably something similar to what my teenaged niece would have written. My favorite part is her description of the Hispanic plane passengers babbling in their "native tongue" as if Spanish is some exotic dialect rarely heard in the modern world.

 

I do agree that surly teenagers are best left at home. Bitching about the filth and your crappy accommodations undermines the intent of "mission" work. On the flip side, I'm kinda happy she kept it real, though.

Edited January 13, 2015 by BitterApple

[Sew Sumi]

Mike Seewald didn't see things that way. He deleted a comment from my friend who commented on how she "kept it real." I guess he thought people would overlook those aspects of the posting? 

[kalamac]

Erk on the "nothing can harm me, unless he Himself has seen fit to permit." Just the idea that if you do get injured or sick it's because Jesus specifically wants it to happen is weird. - admittedly, I'm not religious, so also find it odd when people write facebook posts like "Lost my favourite earrings, prayed to Jesus and he helped me find them".

[floridamom]

Is this the same place that a pregnant Jill went? If so, what is wrong with that one? Jill said the accommodations, food, beach, etc were great, like she was referring to a Caribbean resort or something. Being in her condition, I don't care what a midwife says, I wouldn't risk a drop of local water getting in my mouth when expecting.

I believe that they actually think that nothing bad can happen to them because they are good Christians, etc. and God will protect them from any and all harm. It just doesn't happen that way.  Jessica Seewald needs some time to grow up and hopefully see the real world.

[3girlsforus]

I don't understand why her dad would allow this stuff to be put out on the Internet. Clearly he monitors and edits so why even let his daughter's whining be seen by the world? 

[Sew Sumi]

Yes, Jessica Seewald tagged along with the Duggars (Jill included) on the El Salvador etc. trip in December. 

[jcbrown]

 

I'm not religious, so also find it odd when people write facebook posts like "Lost my favourite earrings, prayed to Jesus and he helped me find them".

You know, I dropped an earring on the floor recently and asked my cat where it was and she went right to it. Perhaps I should pray to her.

 

Obviously, I'm not religious, either. These people make me stabby with their willfully ignorant holier-than-thou prostelytizing and their wasting money on trips to convert the poor heathen natives that could be used actually, you know, helping them.

[PityFree]

See, if they were Catholic, they'd know that St. Anthony helps you find things.

[msblossom]

Michael Seewald proves he lacks discretion by posting his daughter's journal on the web. She referred to the people of El Salvador as natives throughout the post, insulted their singing, and complained about the conditions -- as an adult, why would you want that going out to hundreds of people to read? I'm not familiar with the Seewalds (other than briefly seeing them on the show) or the mission organization they went with. Did they not get briefed beforehand about making an ass of themselves in someone else's country?

[Barb23]

Maybe Boob did the briefing "just put an "O" on the end of your words & you'll be fine."

[floridamom]

How can Jill's opinion of the conditions of their trip be in such contrast with Jessica Seewalds experience as reported by both of them? Didn't Jill go on record as saying the beach, food, accommodations were so great? Was Jessica put up in a sub standard separate facility? It also irks me, as a roman catholic how Christian missionaries from ANY denomination travel to an already Christian country to convert them. Convert them to what? They already know the Lord. That very country is named "El Salvador", which means The Savior, who to all Christians, IS Jesus Christ. I think as far as the Duggars are concerned their "mission trip" is not much more than an excuse to travel to a beach on the Caribbean Sea in the winter and look good doing it. My own uncle, was a missionary, as Franciscan Cappuccine priest, who went to East Africa in 1946-1980; dropped off with 4 fellow priests, a small suitcase and nothing more. They were in the jungle in Mozambique, built their own huts to live in, learned Bantu, the local language, lived with and took care of the locals medically, physically, and spiritually. He only left when he retired and was too old and ill to continue living there, he retired back to Italy and passed away from health complications of living in Africa for 35 years in 1997. At least the locals were not already Christian, as is with the population of El Salvador. Thanks for letting me voice my personal experience with missionaries.

Barb 23:  Love your "O" comment! Quite possibly true.

[msblossom]

Great story about your uncle, floridamom.

This is a guess, but I'm thinking that their mission trip was more about working with a local El Salvador evangelical church, maybe providing some religious curriculum for the youth and being actively involved in church-sponsored neighborhood youth rallies, sort of like a vbs for kids of all ages.

Edited January 14, 2015 by msblossom

[trimthatfat]

Is this the same place that a pregnant Jill went? If so, what is wrong with that one? Jill said the accommodations, food, beach, etc were great, like she was referring to a Caribbean resort or something. Being in her condition, I don't care what a midwife says, I wouldn't risk a drop of local water getting in my mouth when expecting.

I believe that they actually think that nothing bad can happen to them because they are good Christians, etc. and God will protect them from any and all harm. It just doesn't happen that way.  Jessica Seewald needs some time to grow up and hopefully see the real world.

I actually find it refreshing when Americans go to other countries and don't mind living like the citizens - eating the food, drinking locally made drinks. I don't think it has anything to do with them thinking that they will not be harmed because they are Christians. I have a friend who did missionary work in DR and she refused to touch anything locally made, including fresh produce. I found that offensive.

 

I have no issue with children in general joining missionary trips, but I think it takes a certain kind of child to be mature enough to enjoy the experience and not complain too much. It seems Jessica Seewald was too immature for the kind of trip where she'd be stripped of modern day conveniences.

Edited January 14, 2015 by trimthatfat

[GEML]

Just because a country is Christian culturally doesn't mean any given individual knows anything about Christianity. Including the United States. Otherwise we could close down half of our churches, shutter the work that they do and be done with it.

And, yes, other countries do send mission groups here.

Edited January 14, 2015 by GEML

[fireice13]

 

I actually find it refreshing when Americans go to other countries and don't mind living like the citizens - eating the food, drinking locally made drinks.

 

 

I think everyone should do that wherever they travel, however, if I was pregnant and traveling in Central or South America I would try to avoid the water and some local foods. Pregnancy causes you to be immunocompromised so you can be infected with something you wouldn't normally be. That's why pregnant woman are told to avoid cleaning litter boxes and avoid eating certain foods. I wouldn't blame Jill if she had done that - which I don't know if she did or not.

 

I wonder if they think that Catholics aren't Christians? I know a lot of fundamentalist protestants who don't think Catholics are Christians. Maybe they think they need to convert the people of El Salvador.

[3girlsforus]

Thanks GEML... I wrote several versions of a post to try to say that same thing but you did it better.

 

I read the comments below Jessica Seeward's journal entry and it appears that many people think she's just explaining the conditions. Certainly people who are not ugly Americans do that. But I hear an ugly tone in Jessica's posts. Comments like 'Geez I thought my room was bad', 'I wasn't going to anyway. I prefer to keep my shoes clear of raw sewage'.'Gee, this is good for me'. You can practically see her roll her eyes. I'm really surprised at there aren't more people who see it. Of course maybe those comments aren't allowed. But her dad should see it. I still can't believe he lets that representation of his daughter hit the internet. 

[GEML]

I guess I just see comments written by an ordinary teenager who has led a pretty decent American life. Yes, she's rolling her eyes, but that's what teenagers (even French or Japanese ones) do. I don't think her father showed great judgment posting her journal, but I don't think Jessica herself has said anything most privileged 17 year olds wouldn't say.

[Absolom]

Unfortunately, the Duggars are of a brand that believes that Catholics are not Christian.  So yes, they do try to convert Christians to Christianity.  I find it abhorrent and it shows their lack of knowledge of the history of their own faith.  

[msblossom]

Just because a country is Christian culturally doesn't mean any given individual knows anything about Christianity. Including the United States. Otherwise we could close down half of our churches, shutter the work that they do and be done with it.

I get what you're saying, and in all honesty if the Duggars and Seewalds are going to do mission trips like this I'm glad they are going to places where the gospel is already being proclaimed significantly throughout the country since I believe they can do less damage there.

Not to be argumentative, but the purpose of the church is also about the gathering of God's people, building up and encouraging and teaching those in the faith, so closing down half the churches bc the work is done isn't really an option.

I read the comments below Jessica Seeward's journal entry and it appears that many people think she's just explaining the conditions. Certainly people who are not ugly Americans do that. But I hear an ugly tone in Jessica's posts. Comments like 'Geez I thought my room was bad', 'I wasn't going to anyway. I prefer to keep my shoes clear of raw sewage'.'Gee, this is good for me'. You can practically see her roll her eyes. I'm really surprised at there aren't more people who see it. Of course maybe those comments aren't allowed. But her dad should see it. I still can't believe he lets that representation of his daughter hit the internet.

IIRC, I think it was Mr. Seewald that agreed with and reposted Jessa's post about comparing the Holocaust with abortion and that they were essentially the same -- correct me if I'm wrong. So in light of that and his most recent post, I'd say he lacks wisdom and maturity himself.

Edited January 14, 2015 by msblossom

[Wellfleet]

I guess I just see comments written by an ordinary teenager who has led a pretty decent American life. Yes, she's rolling her eyes, but that's what teenagers (even French or Japanese ones) do. I don't think her father showed great judgment posting her journal, but I don't think Jessica herself has said anything most privileged 17 year olds wouldn't say.

 

Not surprised at all Michael Seewald allowed this - he's an uneducated moron.

[Micks Picks]

What bothers me is that the people they are ministering to seem to be invaded by hordes of so-called missionaries who need to be fed, provided with a place to sleep, entertained, and have their tiny houses and primitive cooking areas perused by the outsiders.  I don't know what the advantage is to the people they purport to help, but it seems downright evil to me to act the way the SOS people do.  I'm embarrassed for them, and I apologize to those they have "visited".

[GEML]

I only closed half the churches, since I figured we wouldn't need churches for converting people, only discipleship. That would free up a lot of space! :)

[DangerousMinds]

I read yesterday that many Christian churches in Europe are now closed and up for sale because of dwindling interest and attendance. Oddly enough this is not happening in their Jewish and Muslim communities.

Edited January 15, 2015 by DangerousMinds

[msblossom]

Ha! But you're not counting the people here that that eventually came to be reached with gospel. :)

[BitterApple]

IMO, the Duggars and their ilk just give everything a bad name. Religion, homeschooling, missionary work, "serving" others; you name it and they are the absolute worst representations of it.

[Rhondinella]

What bothers me is that the people they are ministering to seem to be invaded by hordes of so-called missionaries who need to be fed, provided with a place to sleep, entertained, and have their tiny houses and primitive cooking areas perused by the outsiders.  I don't know what the advantage is to the people they purport to help, but it seems downright evil to me to act the way the SOS people do.  I'm embarrassed for them, and I apologize to those they have "visited".

 

 

In cases where this actually happens I would agree with you.  But in the mission trip experiences I've had this isn't the case, at least not with a large group.  If there is a big group they usually stay somewhere else, either a hotel or some kind of permanent lodging owned by the church or organization specifically to accommodate these kinds of groups.  And in the case of my denomination, anyway, missions groups have to also bring enough money with them to buy their own supplies and food while there, especially when they might be feeding a large group 3 times a day.  Otherwise, the organization probably has some way of providing for them. So the locals are not normally expected to provide such things.  

 

For example, for a trip I went on many years ago, the team stayed in a hotel in a large city and then actually took buses to our various ministry locations, which in our case was a village about an hour away.  We brought food with us for lunch (sandwiches and other easy things) so the people in the village didn't have to provide anything.  In cases where missions trips are constructing buildings (which is common) the team often buys, or contributes toward, the supplies and equipment needed.

 

Now, that's not to say that every American who goes on these trips demonstrates exemplary behavior or attitudes toward those they are helping, and there surely are appropriate critiques of such trips and how they are sometimes run, but the majority of teams really are sincere in their wish to help even if they may do it clumsily sometimes.

[Barb23]

Do you think the Duggars would ever visit any of the Cathedrals, Basilicas, or Vatican City if they went to Rome? Would they have to pray on it for permission & wait for the Gothard God to answer? I can picture MEchelle saying they aren't the kind of people that go to those types of churches (similar to the comment she made about the country club venue for Jericks wedding).

[Almost 3000]

I read yesterday that many Christian churches in Europe are now closed and up for sale because of dwindling interest and attendance. Oddly enough this is not happening in their Jewish and Muslim communities.

I'm wondering if the closings are of traditional style buildings because many churches are now in warehouse facilities that better accommodate modern worship. Are the amount of Christian worshipers dwindling?

[DangerousMinds]

From what I read - yes, they are traditional churches that are up for sale. And yes, the number of Christians has really decreased.

[GEML]

Actually, as many as half of all churches in the United States may close in the next fifty years if current trends don't turn around. It's not so much that people don't identity as Christian (although that is falling, but not by 50%) but because people no longer are attending churches. GenXers were the first generation to bail in massive numbers, but this was hidden by baby boomers bringing their children. However, most churches are losing three out of four people ages 30 and younger.

And yes, it's happening in Jewish and Muslim communities as well.

Google things such as "church closing" and "loss of youth" and you'll find plenty of articles in mainstream press down to internal publications such as CHRISTIANITY TODAY.

Of course, I came from the Rust Belt and probably 3/4 of the churches I knew growing up are shuttered simply because of lack of population. And now even booming areas are having troubling when looking down the road long term.

Edited January 15, 2015 by GEML

[Wellfleet]

Do you think the Duggars would ever visit any of the Cathedrals, Basilicas, or Vatican City if they went to Rome? Would they have to pray on it for permission & wait for the Gothard God to answer? I can picture MEchelle saying they aren't the kind of people that go to those types of churches (similar to the comment she made about the country club venue for Jericks wedding).

 

In a word, NO. I imagine the Duggars thinking they'd begin to sizzle the moment they set foot on Vatican property.

[floridamom]

The Duggars visit Vatican City? Oh, my, what a mental image that creates for me. First of all, they have absolutely NO appreciation of art, certainly too much NIKE on those statues and in the depiction of the crucifixion of Jesus...I can imagine Mullet trying to tell the Pope that he has no authority to interpret scripture, but that Bill Gothard does, oh, also, Jim Bob does too. JB will tell the Pope, how he, (wink, wink,) has 19 kids.

That family would be the most disrespectful group of crass Americans that all of Europe has ever seen at such a historical and religious place.Yes, I do believe that they just might sizzle too if they attempted to go there. Thanks for the laugh, Wellfleet.

[Sew Sumi]

Gothard's brother (who used to be in the "ministry" with Bill before he was thrown out for sexual harrassment c.1980) is in trouble again. 

 

https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2015/01/14/bill-gothards-brother-accused-of-racketeering-stealing-millions-from-the-elderly/

 

Such integrity, these two. eta: Gothard and his brother used to use the "Northwoods" location, now used for Journey to the Heart, to isolate these girls. It was a huge scandal back in the day; out of it arose what we now know as IBLP/ATI. Bill was allowed back after a 17 day (or thereabouts) haitus; their board of directors has always been "yes" men; they let Bill linger on far too long this last time, and the usual suspects (Duggars included) spoke at all three conferences last spring and summer, tacitly showing support for their deposed leader. 

 

Bottom line: the Gothard brothers are bottom-of-the-barrel scumbucket wolves in sheeps' clothing. 

Edited January 15, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[mbutterfly]

Since I may be veering off the Duggar religion topic, I'm going to take my response to GEML to Small Talk.