Season 2 Talk

[tennisgurl]

So Hannah didnt leave her last school because she was bullied, she left because she was the bully! Which actually does make some sense to me. As much as bullying can and does happen to everyone, it would be pretty crazy if such an intense bullying campaign happened to the same pretty, nice, basically normal girl at two separate schools. It also fits in well with the greater narrative that people can make mistakes, and can be both the victim and the victimizer at different times, and that doesn't make them absolutely evil or that they deserve only bad things, or that they can never be redeemed. 

Except for Bryce of course. Fuck that guy. I cant believe he raped his girlfriend. That guy is a straight up serial rapist and a sociopath, and he needs to be stopped not just to get justice, but for the generally safety of the community. 

Loved getting more on Tony and his backstory, and his friendship with Hannah. I've always liked Tony, but last season he was almost like a magical truth genie, while this season he seems more like his own character. He and Hannah getting their nails done was cute, and his awkwardly sweet interactions with Ryan were really endearing. And, yeah, he actually seemed like a teenager, even though he so obviously isnt. Of course, while this is TV, I totally knew guys in high school who looked like they were in their late 20s even at seventeen, so what do I know? I also thought it was nice that Ryan asked him if he wanted to come to court for his testimony, even if it didnt go well. You know, even if Tony shouldn't have beaten the shit out of the guy, and his anger issues are clearly very real, I dont feel too bad for the guy he beat up. What an asshole. 

Porter is just saying Screw It to the useless school, and helping kids because, why not at this point? He was really good with Justin, and I am glad that someone is actually reaching out to the poor kid. He clearly cant go back to his mom, and I dont know how long he can stay with the Jensons before social services gets involved, and I dont see any of that going well. Justin really has had a full on turn around this season, and is really trying to be a better person. 

This school needs more than a counselor, it needs a full on counseling team, a counseling strike team of therapy commandos for the ridiculous amount of issues in this school. Its amazing they've only had one suicide and one attempted so far!

I thought that Cyrus was going to be the bad influence on Tyler, but now I think that Cyrus is just your typical rage against the machine teen who really wont do anything to actually hurt people, and Tyler is the one who is going to take things up to a really dangerous level. 

Zach finally stands up to Bryce! he has been quietly getting sick of this bullshit all season, and it finally hit its boiling point. I also like how intensely salty he has gotten. "How does playing baseball prove we arent rapists?" I figured it was Zach sending the tapes, but its nice to see it confirmed. 

I love Shari so much this year. She and Justin are the real heroes of the season. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by tennisgurl

[tennisgurl]

So, I am just gonna add "Bryce's hard on" to my list of Things I Never Want to Think About. Good lord, that guy is a full on psychopath. The ending was quite shocking, realizing how much he made up, and how he was getting off to the power he had as she raped Hannah. He gets turned on by control and having power over other people. I kind of makes me wonder if he became  best friends with Justin not only because he was a fellow jock, but because he figured that an abuse victim from a poor family would be easy to manipulate? 

That fight was amazing! I was halfway between cheering at how Bryce and his assholes were finally getting hit in their stupid faces, or laughing at how quickly the fight escalated, and how it just kept growing! I cant even pick a favorite part! I think it might be a three way tie between Alex wacking a guy with his cane, Mr. Porter and the Coach actually joining the fight instead of stopping it, or Courtney and Ryan just looking on the whole thing with disdain, until Courtney pulled the fire alarm? Or maybe when Cyrus and his friends joined in just because screw those guys? I half expected to see the coach and Porter in detection with the rest of the kids!

I dont think thats the memory that Alex wanted back. No wonder he lost it when he realized what had happened. 

Of course Clay continues to be jealous all the time about Hannah and acts like he is the real victim in all of this because Hannah may have liked guys other than him. Clay needs some serious counseling, as he is full on losing his shit at this point. His constant acting like he alone is the safeguard of Hannah's legacy (unless of course she did something he disapprovess of) and that he is just so much better than everyone else, is just so freaking annoying. I feel bad for him, as he is clearly struggling horribly (and thank God Justin realized something was up), but he needs to get some of that self awareness everyone else is working on so much. 

[tennisgurl]

I admit it, I actually did an "awwww" when the kids on the tape (except for Shari, which was weird, unless shes off planning something) all showed up at Jessica's house to support her. I like to think that Hannah would be happy about that. Maybe a more idealistic read on the tapes wasn't just because she wanted her story told, but she wanted people, many of whom she was friends with at some point, to realize what they did and work on being better people, and, with the exception of Bryce and Marcus, thats actually happened. 

And then theres Tyler, who I feel bad for, but am also pretty concerned for, and a little scared of. Kid looks like he has been planning a death list all episode, and when Cyrus friend dumped him, I knew it would get worse. I dont blame Cyrus for telling the principle that Tyler was stockpiling weapons and talking about "making them pay" because, sadly, I think pretty much an kid nowadays would know where that might be leading, and Cyrus might want to take down the system, but not to the point of fucking his life up or actually hurting people. Although, Tyler wasn't wrong when he said the asshole jocks would be going to this program if they really cared about students with disciplinary problems. Between all that and Porter leaving Tyler's file up as his number one kid to watch, I dont think this is going to end well. I am very very nervous. 

I figured that the trial would end this way for the start, as proving the school was to blame was always going to be a hard sell, but it still sucked to see that Olivia went through all of that for a not guilty verdict. At least Bryce got arrested, and in front of all those cameras! That made me practically punch the air in glee! But, because we cant have nice things, Justin got arrested to, to the horror of Jess and Clay. I hope Clays mom can help, because I fear that Bryce will get off with a slap on the wrist because of his rich parents and fancy legal team, while Justin, a homeless recovering addict and the son of a junkie, will either get the worse punishment, or end up lost in the system until they dump him out at eighteen. I did enjoy all of the Clay and Justin stuff with week, and how much they had each others backs. Who would have imagined that last season, Justin and Clay would be living together and risking their necks for each other? They really have done a good job of showing Justin being redeemed, and becoming a better person this season, whole still being the same guy we met last year.

So Monty is our A this whole time! Bryce really does have some weird affect on people, doesn't he? My God, this school is crazy! Abusive parents everywhere, rape is rampant, possible shooters, its one bus crash away from being Neptune High from Veronica Mars! I loved the dramatic of everyone showing up to circle him in the abandoned lot, and Scot defecting to Team Baker. He even sat with them at the court! I love that Bryce is finally losing supporters, now that its sinking in how awful he is. 

[NUguy514]

There was a point during the Clay/Skye scene where I fully yelled at my TV, "OH MY GOD, CLAY, IT IS NOT. ABOUT. YOU!!"  And then his decreeing to Alex and Justin that maybe Jessica's truth should come out now?  Nope, ick, gross, please go die in a fire, Nice Guy.

Tyler has lost me forever by shooting that bird.

[NUguy514]

On 5/20/2018 at 6:04 PM, starri said:

I'm going to just say that so far, Zach and Sheri have been the heroes of this season.

Co-sign 100%.

Sheri laying some much needed truth on Nice Guy Fuckface Clay was richly satisfying.

Edited May 26, 2018 by NUguy514

[NUguy514]

After Clay actually said out loud that maybe what Bryce said on the stand about himself and Hannah was true and after Clay was so unbelievably stupid as to leave the box of pictures in the backseat of his car in plain view of anyone with working eyes, I was hoping he would just pull the fucking trigger when he had that gun to his head.  Well, I kind of wanted him to shoot Bryce in the head first and then himself, but still.

Courtney rolling her eyes, pulling the fire alarm, and walking away was the best.

Edited May 26, 2018 by NUguy514

[NUguy514]

On 5/23/2018 at 1:23 PM, starri said:

Although I was slightly miffed that the producers didn't think to include Sheri, since I don't think there's any way she wouldn't have been there within the fiction of the narrative.

Yeah, it didn't make sense that Sheri wasn't there, honestly.  It was great to see some solidarity, though.

I hope Marcus is somewhere having his Harvard acceptance rescinded.

There was no way the Bakers were winning the case given what we were shown of the testimony.

Seeing Bryce handcuffed in front of everyone was satisfying.  I can't imagine his threatening Jessica in front of multiple witnesses was a great idea on his part, which: good.

Most importantly, Jessica, you are a hero.

[NUguy514]

I get that this show wants to be hyperrealistic in many ways, which is admirable, but I do wonder if its militant adherence to that hyperrealism might have unintended consequences.  By that, I mean that it could instill hopelessness in viewers who might be struggling with parallel situations in their own lives; if they see the show depict the bad guys continually getting away with it (however realistic that may be), they might be that much less inclined to speak their truths.  If even one of those really bad guys (Bryce or Monty, I don't care which) had gotten any sort of comeuppance, even if the other(s) didn't, that's still a little bit of hope to witness.  I realize much of this is because they wanted to set up the third season, but it just left me feeling like I'd spent thirteen more episodes watching bad guys keep getting away with awful crimes.  Maybe next season, if there is one, Bryce and Monty will finally answer for their crimes and end up in jail where they are raped every goddamn day for the rest of their miserable lives (yep, I said it), but this season doesn't leave me with any reason to believe that will happen.  I don't know, it's very late, I just marathoned the final seven episodes, and I'm exhausted.

Fuck you, Nina.  Seriously.  Fuck.  You.

Clay, you are holding a fucking machine gun with police coming.  In a few minutes, you will be the one the cops are shooting down.

I have to assume Ajiona Alexus wasn't really available for the final two episodes because it made zero sense that Sheri was absent for everything that happened.

I'm rooting for Alex and Zach.  They're the cutest.

I gasped at the rape scene because it came out of nowhere for me; that was why I was so shocked.  With Hannah's and Jessica's rapes, I knew they were coming and had steeled myself, but Tyler's rape took me completely by surprise.  Honestly, I don't know how he was walking normally; he really shouldn't have been, but then someone could've noticed, which could've prevented the dramatic ending, etc.  I hope he tells someone, anyone about his rape.  Maybe this could be the straw that finally breaks Bryce's and Monty's and the rest's collective backs.

[mwell345]

1 hour ago, NUguy514 said:

Clay, you are holding a fucking machine gun with police coming.  In a few minutes, you will be the one the cops are shooting down.

Yes, I thought the same thing.   And IIRC, Clay was inside the school telling the others not to call the police because he could handle this....and he goes out to confront an armed shooter all by himself.  Really? What superpower does he possess that he would even remotely consider that as a good idea?  For that matter, why would the writers even think to intimate in any way, shape or form, that this was a plausible reaction to an armed student showing up at a school?  You call the police,  you run, hide, lock doors, barricade, etc.  You don't go out and confront the person.  Not in any scenario.  

 

1 hour ago, NUguy514 said:

I get that this show wants to be hyperrealistic in many ways, which is admirable, but I do wonder if its militant adherence to that hyperrealism might have unintended consequences.  By that, I mean that it could instill hopelessness in viewers who might be struggling with parallel situations in their own lives; if they see the show depict the bad guys continually getting away with it (however realistic that may be), they might be that much less inclined to speak their truths.  If even one of those really bad guys (Bryce or Monty, I don't care which) had gotten any sort of comeuppance, even if the other(s) didn't, that's still a little bit of hope to witness.  I realize much of this is because they wanted to set up the third season, but it just left me feeling like I'd spent thirteen more episodes watching bad guys keep getting away with awful crimes.  Maybe next season, if there is one, Bryce and Monty will finally answer for their crimes and end up in jail where they are raped every goddamn day for the rest of their miserable lives (yep, I said it), but this season doesn't leave me with any reason to believe that will happen.  I don't know, it's very late, I just marathoned the final seven episodes, and I'm exhausted.

Bold is mine.  This is a good point.  Instead of repercussions, we got to see  the kid that went to a behavioral camp to try to manage his issues, come back to school, try to get along, and get raped.  What was the point (other than  trying to pull a third season out of this)?  What message are they sending, especially, as you said, to people who might be in similar situations? 

As far as a third season, I'm out.  I think they should have ended it after episode 12.  It's getting too heavy handed for me and I'm tired of it.  I don't need to be punched in the gut. 

(And on a totally unrelated note, I could have done without Ghost Hanna.  She started to annoy me early on, and I found her conversations with Clay boring after a while.  It would have been sufficient to show her in the flashbacks. I get that we're supposed to see Clay struggling with who Hanna really was, but I think we would have gotten that without Ghost Hanna.)

[Lady Calypso]

14 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Of course Clay continues to be jealous all the time about Hannah and acts like he is the real victim in all of this because Hannah may have liked guys other than him. Clay needs some serious counseling, as he is full on losing his shit at this point. His constant acting like he alone is the safeguard of Hannah's legacy (unless of course she did something he disapprovess of) and that he is just so much better than everyone else, is just so freaking annoying. I feel bad for him, as he is clearly struggling horribly (and thank God Justin realized something was up), but he needs to get some of that self awareness everyone else is working on so much. 

I think the biggest disservice Hannah did as her final message to Clay was including him on her tapes AND not holding him responsible compared to the other people on the tape. I think that gave Clay the wrong idea that he should be this saviour to a dead Hannah, on top of his residual feelings and his trauma over her death. I know Hannah didn't feel like Clay was a bad guy, and I do believe that she wasn't intentionally trying to hurt him by including him on the tapes, but I think it actually did hurt him overall. This season has shown Clay to be very possessive, and I think maybe that could be because Hannah's message about him was vastly different than anyone else's and, thus, there's a good chance he feels superior and like he's the only one that can avenge her death. Also look at the scene from the season 1 finale, when he confronted Porter. He did put some of the blame on himself, but I think he's been showing how much he also blames Hannah and the others as well, as if he had some big purpose in her life. I think his guilt that she didn't blame him and that there was something there that has allowed him to behave in the way that he does. 

[Chicken Wing]

Am I the only one who, when we saw Meredith Monroe as Alex's mom, immediately Googled her age? And went, "Goddammit, she's 48?!!" And then felt about a million years old to realize that one of the teen characters from Dawson's Creek (who admittedly never looked like a real teenager) is now pushing 50 and playing the mother of a teen?

Edited May 26, 2018 by Chicken Wing

[truthaboutluv]

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Clay had been working my last nerve this season, but I felt really bad for him when he got beat up, and him joining the Assholes for a mission was fun. I mean, they broke the law, but they arent wrong by any stretch.

While Clay is frustrating and as I noted in another episode thread, has total only child spoiled brat syndrome, I'll still take him over someone like Zach. Clay definitely needs to get over that ridiculous pedestal he put Hannah on and the underlying slut shaming needs to stop. He also needs to stop thinking he knows best for others at times. That said, I still think it's interesting seeing all the comments about what a nice guy Zach is and how easily swayed and swoony some were over the Hannah/Zach summer romance rewrite when frankly, I still prefer Clay's character over him because at least Clay's not a fucking coward.

Yes, Zach checked up on Chloe, which was nice and furthers the "he's such a sweet boy" narrative, but he's still just sitting around making a snide comment or two against Bryce yet not really doing anything. I just feel like before this season ends, I want to see Zach truly not be a fucking coward just once.  Stand up for something. Even if it is just to quit lying about why he's spending time with Alex. Just admit Alex is truly his friend. Not even that he can do. Until that happens, I can never truly like the character because he's just too fucking weak for me to respect. 

Meanwhile, glad to see that Justin only went home to try and get some money because I don't doubt for a second that his mom's crazy meth boyfriend would kill him on sight. Was surprised to see all the messages from Clay to Justin, considering Clay's complete zero fucks attitude when telling his father that Justin left. I guess his dad's lecture to him got through. At first I thought Tyler's friend would be the bad influence that steers him to doing something really bad that hurts people but I think it may be the other way around. While the guy is willing to mess around and do some pranks, he doesn't seem as unstable as Tyler. Tyler screams ticking bomb waiting to explode. I also see they added in his being OCD, as I don't remember that being referenced last season. 

Meanwhile, I don't know if it's because of the nature of this show and it just naturally makes me super paranoid and suspicious of everyone but I find something a little unsettling about Jessica's new friend. I don't think she's batshit or that she'll do anything to Jessica but I don't know, I just don't really care for her and kind of want her to go away. 

[truthaboutluv]

On 5/20/2018 at 9:56 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Wow, Sheri treading into dangerous territory with the Clubhouse. I legit got terrified for her in her scene in the Clubhouse with Bryce and the other two jocks.

That scene made me very, very anxious. I was very glad when it was over. 

 

On 5/20/2018 at 9:56 AM, Lady Calypso said:

But thank god she stood up to Clay about the photos. I mean, sure, I can see why Clay would automatically assume and make those comments, but I'm glad Sheri got to put it into perspective, as a female, for Clay.

As frustrating as it is to have Clay say something like that, I do think it was important that the writers put it in to have the dialogue that ensued because there are many Clay's where of course they think rape is absolutely wrong but will also wonder "why did this girl/woman put herself in that position?" I will also say this, I do think it is important though for dialogue to be had about girls and women taking precautions and not putting themselves in certain positions and that should be had without some being accused of slut shaming, blaming the victim. And unfortunately, sometimes that can't happen and I get it because this is such a triggering issue. 

 

On 5/20/2018 at 9:56 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Wow, Zach actually stood up to Bryce. That was surprising. Also, why didn't I expect that it was Zach who sent Clay those three polaroids? In hindsight, it's really really obvious that it had to have been Zach. He's been silently rebelling for a couple of weeks.

I wasn't surprised it was him and I wasn't surprised that he did it secretly. I did like Clay saying, "um wtf, you could have just come to me and told me" because seriously, it's true. But my guess is he did it the way he did because he knew Clay would be Clay and expect Zach to go tell someone or be public and just be doggedly on him to stand up against Bryce and Zach was clearly not ready to be that brave. 

 

On 5/20/2018 at 9:56 AM, Lady Calypso said:

It was nice to see Tyler's parents finally finding out about his actions and punishing him, though. 

Did they really find out because his mother still seems very clueless and in denial. Tyler's parents have no freaking clue what's truly going on with their kid. Tyler and his parents give me complete "son who shoots up a school and the parents are left completely shocked and confused because they never saw any signs". Tyler's parents see him the way he wants them to see him but it's not the truth. 

 

On 5/20/2018 at 9:56 AM, Lady Calypso said:

The twist of Bryce having raped Chloe was completely shocking to me. 

And I was completely not shocked. Bryce is a predator who gets off on abusing girls. No girl is different when it comes to him. 

 

On 5/22/2018 at 1:27 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As he said, he's a coward.

I actually said out loud to the screen, "yes, yes you are" when this line was said. But yes, kudos to him for giving Clay and Tyler the photos and essentially giving Bryce a fuck you and walking off the field. 

And to no one's surprise, Hannah had been to the clubhouse. While I'm not as harsh in my assessment of the season so far, I am understanding why The Hollywood Reporter slammed it for all the cliches it had. Because yeah, saw that "big reveal" coming a mile away. 

Edited May 26, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[tennisgurl]

I swear, for one horrible moment, I thought the episode would end with Tyler walking into the dance with his gun, with everyone still there rocking out and having fun, and you hear gun shots and scream, and they fade to black, and we have to wait until next season to find out what happened to everyone. I would have had to send tapes to every writer on this shows staff to tell them I blamed them for me throwing my laptop into a wall and busting it open out of rage, 

There is a lot to dive into in this episode, and this season in general, but one thing I've noticed is the debate over whether or not the show is a big downer where the bad guys win, the good guys lose, and everything just sucks, and the artistic merit, or lack thereof, of doing that. Well, to me, I dont think this was a huge downer where everything sucked. Yes, both court vases went badly, as I expected them to. The school won because its hard to legally prove criminal negligence in this case. Bryce got a slap on the wrist because he is from a "good" family that can pay for a whole legal team, and he gets a judge saying how he doesn't want to ruin his oh so promising life, while Justin, who did much less and actually testified knowing he could get arrested too, got dragged into court in cuffs and a prison uniform after being stuck in juvie for a month and sentenced to a harsher punishment than the actual rapist, because he comes from a poor home of drug addicts and he himself as struggled with drugs and abuse. I pretty much saw all of that coming, and yes, it sucks. If you think thats super depressing and that kills the show for you, thats totally understandable. But, for me, as much as I wanted Olivia to win the case, and for Bryce to rot in prison, the legal stuff wasn't as important to me, as the characters finally getting to a better place in their lives, and that we actually got to see this season. 

This season, we actually saw a lot of the characters, even the ones who were pretty big assholes in the past, actually grow because of these horrible experiences. Mr. Porter realized that he needs to be a better job showing empathy for the students he works with, even beyond what the standard procedure is. Zach finally learned to stand up for himself and what was right. Justin realized that Bryce is toxic and that he shouldn't let his crappy upbringing keep him from being a decent person. Alex and Jess found some peace and closure after their respective traumas, and are actually starting to heal for real. And Clay is finally showing more interesting in helping people other than Hannah, and has finally let her go. In general, most of them have shown real growth this season, realizing that their actions have consequences, and that they need to start showing empathy for others, and that its more important to be a good person and friend than to fit in. And by the end, most of the We Tried To get Justice League (amazing name!) were actually supporting each other, and had taken responsibility for what happened to Hannah and to other people, and are actually better, happier people. Tony seems to be dealing with his anger, Courtney gets take take her girlfriend to prom, Justin has people who actually give a crap about him, and while last season the kids on the tape were at each others throats, this year, with a few notable exceptions, they actually supported each other. 

Granted, its not all hunky dory. Everything still treats Tyler like a leper and just when he was getting it together, it all horribly fell to pieces, Marcus and Bryce are still awful, Justin is still using drugs, Chloe is pregnant with her rapists baby and feels she has to stay with him, Liberty hasn't seemed to learn much from this, Jessica and Justin hooked up at prom behind Alex's back, and everyone is still in need of some serious therapy. But, honestly, I feel like the ending of this season is actually more hopeful than last season, because while the legal stuff went to crap, many of the characters are actually in a better, happier place now, which means that at least some good came out of this whole, tragic mess. 

[truthaboutluv]

11 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think the biggest disservice Hannah did as her final message to Clay was including him on her tapes AND not holding him responsible compared to the other people on the tape. I think that gave Clay the wrong idea that he should be this saviour to a dead Hannah, on top of his residual feelings and his trauma over her death. I know Hannah didn't feel like Clay was a bad guy, and I do believe that she wasn't intentionally trying to hurt him by including him on the tapes, but I think it actually did hurt him overall. This season has shown Clay to be very possessive, and I think maybe that could be because Hannah's message about him was vastly different than anyone else's and, thus, there's a good chance he feels superior and like he's the only one that can avenge her death. Also look at the scene from the season 1 finale, when he confronted Porter. He did put some of the blame on himself, but I think he's been showing how much he also blames Hannah and the others as well, as if he had some big purpose in her life. I think his guilt that she didn't blame him and that there was something there that has allowed him to behave in the way that he does. 

I agree with this whole statement except the bolded because YMMV but in two seasons (still missing the last episode), I can't think of a thing Clay did to Hannah that he needed to be held accountable for or should have been made responsible like the others. Interestingly that was one of the first things Justin said to him in the first season, "you're not so innocent Jensen" but thus far, he kind of was. And in fact, I remember that last season, that was one of the things some viewers criticized Hannah for - including Clay on the tapes and dragging him into this mess that he really wasn't a part of.

Clay's tape was essentially just Hannah's way of explaining to him why she freaked out on him like she did at the party and essentially apologize to him and I guess call out why he never tried harder to be with her while she was alive. But she could have sent that in a letter. Instead she put him on a list of people who bullied her, raped her, used her, mocked her, etc. A kid who already had his own mental issues before his friend died in a car accident and Hannah killed herself. I mean she didn't give Tony a tape. No, Clay's not perfect and he's been a dick many times this season, but I'm not ready to drag him while hand holding other characters for their shitty actions. Like I'm sorry, to each his own but some were really waiting for some modicum of decency from Bryce - really? Yeah how'd that go with Marcus?

Thing is, it was fucked up on Hannah's part to include Clay on these tapes because while he was passively in love with her and had her on this unrealistic pedestal, he never intentionally hurt her. And it was completely fucked up to mess with the kid's head in that way. So yeah now he's on some mission to play hero and avenge Hannah but then he's realizing she wasn't this saint high on the pedestal he put her and it's making him be a dick and slut shamey about her memory. 

 

Quote

So the clubhouse was supposedly only for baseball players and the girls they invited, which is why we’re supposed to believe that Justin (who was always hanging out with Bryce, Zach, Monty, and Scott) didn’t known it existed, but somehow Marcus was in there with a stripper and at least one other guy (who filmed the incriminating video)?

One of the many things I'm calling bullshit on in this season. I know they're clearly on the "redeem Justin" track, enough that we should forget about his many threats to want to hurt and kill Clay last season. But trying to sell me that Justin who was so close Bryce knew nothing about that clubhouse is complete bullshit. 

 

Quote

Once again, Clay's jealousy is making me angry. Let's just say for the sake of argument that Hannah did hang out with Bryce and have sex with him right after she moved to town. SO THE FUCK WHAT? She never said on the tapes that she DIDN'T do those things (and as Zach pointed out to Clay in S2.E6, she obviously didn't put everything about everyone on those tapes). Even if she had sex with Bryce a hundred times during their junior year, that doesn't give him the right to rape her even once. Husbands can rape their wives. It's called consent and it has to be given every time. The number of times you had sex before that has no bearing on consent.

Just because she didn't include certain information on the tapes and she didn't tell Clay about XYZ doesn't make it untrue and it doesn't make Hannah a liar. She never said that the tapes were the equivalent of an all-encompassing history of the world. Clay's relentless jealousy really gets me mad. They weren't even dating! She had no obligation to tell him all of these things that weren't on the tapes. The fact that he was surprised by many things that WERE on the tapes should be a pretty strong indicator that she didn't tell him everything, so why should he be surprised that there are even more things that she didn't tell him and that she didn't put on the tapes?

Honestly, this is probably going to be massively unpopular, but I understand Clay's reaction. The Hannah obsessing is ridiculous and over the top, but I get his confusion and freak outs about some of the testimonies. I don't think Clay was thinking that if what Bryce was saying was true and that he and Hannah did hook up in the past, it meant he didn't rape Hannah because again, Bryce admitted what he did and he was still dogged on getting Bryce even while struggling with the information. And after all, Chloe was dating Bryce so she'd obviously slept with him and they called what Bryce did in the pictures to her, rape, which it was. I don't think Clay was suddenly questioning that Bryce raped Hannah based on what Bryce said. He was struggling with whether or not they could have had something at some point and I get it. 

I think the issue Clay was having is essentially that in his mind, Hannah left these tapes to tell her story, to tell why she killed herself or so she said on the tapes and yet so much of that story was left out, like an entire relationship with Zach. So if there was so much she didn't tell, how then can they really know that everything she said was really true? And it's not necessarily the rape but think back to Jessica in Season 1 saying that it was Hannah who ended the friendship, not her and Alex. Basically I think Clay feels like Hannah dropped this bombshell on them, calling people out and telling her truth as she remembered it. Only to now find out that so much of that truth was left out. I don't think it's unreasonable that yes he's struggling with wondering if he ever really knew her at all.

And just so it's clear, I'm not saying Hannah was wrong for not telling parts about her life that she didn't want to on the tapes.  And I'm not saying that she deserved to be slut shamed or blamed for everything that happened to her because she was nice to and maybe too trusting to assholes who didn't deserve it. I'm just saying that while frustrating and not perfect, I understand Clay's struggle and feelings. No, it's not right or perfect but none of these characters are perfect. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[truthaboutluv]

Sucks for him, but not surprised Justin was arrested too. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[truthaboutluv]

So I haven't read the comments but just got done watching. I knew there was a lot of backlash about the season and a particular scene but I was really good at remaining unspoiled. I will say that that was very hard to watch. And even with the warning, I wasn't prepared. I had to pause the episode after because I couldn't focus on the scenes right after because I was that shaken up by the whole thing.

That said, I disagree with the calls for the show to be yanked. There have been far more graphic violence and sexual scenes in movies and shows that were left on air. As I always say, my measure for these types of things is whether or not people are just being gratuitous and wanting to shock. And while I do think the writers of the show aren't afraid to push the boundaries of telling the shit that happens in high school, I don't think the scene was done purely for shock value. Was it meant to evoke a powerful reaction, yes but that doesn't mean it was simply for gratuitous purposes. 

So that being said, I'm very glad we didn't get the mass shooting that I felt sure was coming. I do kind of have to eye roll the idea that super hero Clay could talk down someone who was clearly as far gone as Tyler (and I am very glad on the after show, the psychologist that consults for the show made it absolutely clear that no, in real life, you do not confront someone armed and instead do exactly as Zach said, get out to safety and call the police) was but I don't even care. I'll take it just so we didn't have to get that storyline. That said, I don't know if it makes me a hypocrite to say that I wouldn't have an issue with Tyler murdering that asshole because that dude is a waste of human life that no one will miss anyway. Not to mention that Tyler'd probably be saving lives murdering that asshole since dude is clearly on the fast track to murdering someone or multiple people. 

They surely set up enough seeds for a Season 3. I guess Bryce will be gone - good riddance. But there's the obvious Jessica/Justin/Alex triangle and not to mention Justin's being an addict, the whole drama with Tyler, how they move forward from that, do they all cover it up, the police will obviously be asking questions since someone obviously called them saying there was a threat. I knew the second from the way Justin was acting when Clay said they were going to pick up the food that Justin was still using and was probably going to use as soon as Clay left. And in a very dark episode, I did laugh at the many people telling Clay he needed to get laid because seriously, it's true. Curious to see who they cast as his love interest next season or if they go with someone already there. The only one really available though is Sherri since Jessica is in her whole triangle saga. But Clay's an ass to Sherri so yeah, no. 

In other news, not that I missed him in any way because he was an unmitigated asshole but dude, it's like Marcus just disappeared, never to be seen or heard from again. Weird...

Edited May 27, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[memememe76]

In terms of a love interest for Clay, I cannot see a new character being viable. I still stand by Sheri and Clay begging for her forgiveness for being such an ass would make a good redemption arc. The other option is bringing back Kat, Hannah's first and only real friend.

Edited May 27, 2018 by memememe76

[ElectricBoogaloo]

To be fair, everyone is a coward. It's just a matter of what each person is a coward about and how far they're willing to go to feel safe. Clay was a coward about Hannah. He was afraid to ask her out or tell her how he felt about her. Courtney was a coward about letting people know about her sexuality. She was willing to actively attack Hannah in S1 in order to protect her secret. She lied about the picture, she lied about Hannah having a crush on her, etc. all to keep anyone from knowing that she was really gay. Justin, Monty, and Zach were all cowards about the same thing - they were afraid of losing the security of having that powerful/popular group of friends. Sheri was afraid of the consequences of knocking over that sign (even before the accident).

I'm not saying Zach was right to be coward, just that most of the characters on this show have made decisions based on their cowardice. Zach at least made some efforts to be nice - apologizing to Hannah, hanging out with Alex, checking on Chloe. Could he have done more? Definitely. But he has recognized his mistakes and tried to be better.

Clay, on the other hand, keeps thinking that he's the only one who knows how to get justice for Hannah, even if that means wanting Jessica to out herself as the person on tape nine, releasing the tapes (anonymously, of course, so that he doesn't have to take responsibility from anyone but the other people on the tape who realize he did it) which airs everyone's dirty laundry, etc. The only mistake that he seems to acknowledge is that he didn't see Hannah's cries for help, but he thinks all of the other stuff he did was justified and totally okay.

I'm not saying that Zach is better than Clay though because it's not a contest to see who is the worst. Everyone on this show has made mistakes and most of them were made out of fear or cowardice. Some of them are now willing to admit what they've done and try to make things right and be better (Sheri, Zach, and Mr. Porter are the ones who seem to be making the most effort). On the other end of the spectrum are Bryce and Marcus who only care about covering their asses, no matter how many other lives they have to wreck to do it.

[truthaboutluv]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Courtney was a coward about letting people know about her sexuality. She was willing to actively attack Hannah in S1 in order to protect her secret. She lied about the picture, she lied about Hannah having a crush on her, etc. all to keep anyone from knowing that she was really gay. Justin, Monty, and Zach were all cowards about the same thing - they were afraid of losing the security of having that powerful/popular group of friends. Sheri was afraid of the consequences of knocking over that sign (even before the accident).

And all of these people were judged and dragged for their actions. People loathed Courtney last season. This season did a lot to redeem her in viewers' eyes, especially when she bravely admitted to being a lesbian on the stand, just so she could defend Hannah against the asshole lawyer's attacks. But all of these characters were called out for their shitty actions. Yet since last season, it seems like Zach often gets the pass of "he's young, it's tough to stand up against bullies, it's not always easy to do the right thing, he is really a sweet boy deep down, he did really care for her even if he ditched her in a heartbeat for his friends because his mom sucks and cripples him emotionally, etc. etc."

I remember even last season someone essentially saying Hannah was an asshole to scream at Zach the way she did in the cafeteria and so his stealing a couple of notes of hers wasn't a big deal. This despite the fact that Hannah quietly told Zach multiple times to go away. But he was a teenage boy who was essentially yelled at and embarrassed in public by her so some "understood" why he later acted out like he did.  The consensus regarding Zach always seemed to be that since he wasn't doing the truly asshole things, just quietly standing by and not doing anything, he wasn't as bad.

And for the record, I don't think Zach is like a Bryce or Monty, both of whom are complete fucking psychos. But at the same time I don't think he's the amazing guy either and I do think the character gets a lot of passes for his shitty actions. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[Snickerdoodle]

On 5/22/2018 at 4:04 PM, millennium said:

When Clay's parents gave him a Prius as a first car, it occurred to me that these brats may have a touch of affluenza.   They seem to have too much time to sit around contemplating their belly-buttons, having sex, terrorizing each other, etc.   Too much access to money, as well.    

Agreed. After Clay was run off the road , came home and yelled at his parents “ oh, and I need a fucking car!” I thought what an entitled brat. And then his parents go and give him a car!  His parents are such push overs. 

[BigDfromLA]

Why has Zach been spending so much time with Alex, helping him with his rehab so much? I don't get it.

Clay gets less and less likeable each episode of season 2. He is super selfish as well.

Porter has really really lost it. He will end up in a mental institution before long.

[BigDfromLA]

Since Courtney was raised by two gay fathers, I would imagine that she would have absolutely no problem "coming out" from day one, if she was gay. It would be completely normal and legitimate for her. I don't get her apprehension. 

[millennium]

7 hours ago, Snickerdoodle said:

Agreed. After Clay was run off the road , came home and yelled at his parents “ oh, and I need a fucking car!” I thought what an entitled brat. And then his parents go and give him a car!  His parents are such push overs. 

Most of the parents in this show tiptoe around their teens as if afraid of upsetting the delicate equilibrium of their oh-so-fragile minds.   The phrase "kid gloves" takes on an ironic double meaning.  

 

The only parents I recall who truly laid down the law were Tyler's, who in episodes to come not only take away all his electronics but his cameras too.   Alas, even that's too little too late.   The later confrontation between Bryce and his mother was unthinkable.   She slapped him and flounced out of the room but otherwise did nothing.   What kind of woman lets that slide?   Clay's parents seemed too enamored of being Clay's "friend" rather than his parents, otherwise they might have noticed that he was having a nervous breakdown and hiding a heroin addict in his bedroom.

  Elsewhere in this forum I have questioned the realism of this show, but in this respect, sadly, I think it's right on the money.   Where I live, many parents in well-to-do families are not paying close attention to their kids, and their kids are finding trouble.   In the age of Instagram, Snapchat, etc., kids have too many opportunities to pursue secret lives and start down bad paths.   Instead of pulling back and giving their kids "space," parents need to be more vigilant and involved in their kids' lives than ever before, IMHO.

P.S.  Your ID makes me think of E. Jean Carroll.

Edited May 28, 2018 by millennium

[Giuseppe]

Sorry, I can't remember which episode this was, but what happened with Jackie? I couldn't read the note she left for Olivia, and I was kind of dozing off the last few episodes so I may have missed an explanation. Also, who was she to begin with? Just a friend of Olivia's? I think I must have missed that explanation as well.

Anyhoo, I don't know what it is about this series, but I find it so disturbingly well-done. I can't remember a series where I was so interested in the storylines of each character featured.  That said, like most of y'all, I thought Clay's determination to confront school-shooter Tyler was pretty irresponsible, but at the same time, I'm glad that they didn't follow through with the shooting. Just wish it had been handled differently.

Was Chloe in season 1? I honestly don't remember.

[truthaboutluv]

9 hours ago, Giuseppe said:

Sorry, I can't remember which episode this was, but what happened with Jackie? I couldn't read the note she left for Olivia, and I was kind of dozing off the last few episodes so I may have missed an explanation. Also, who was she to begin with? Just a friend of Olivia's? I think I must have missed that explanation as well.

She left after the testimony of the girl from Hannah's old school, who Hannah had apparently bullied. I saw her leaving coming a mile away when Hannah's mom looked at her during the testimony and she tried to smile but you could tell it was forced and she was struggling with hearing the girl's testimony, which made sense because Jackie's daughter had also killed herself because she'd been bullied.

That's how she and Hannah's mom became friends. Her own daughter had killed herself as a result of bullying and so she'd become an activist to support and help other parents going through the same thing. However, I think her hearing the girl talk about the names Hannah and the other girls called her just hit too close to home for her. 

As for Chloe, I don't really remember her at all in Season 1 but I do remember Jessica's being on the cheerleading team being heavily featured. So my guess is she probably was in the season but not a character that was heavily focused on. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[memememe76]

Aside from Hannah and the tapes, coming out is not at easy. If coming out to the family is easy, it may not be so easy to come out to the public (work, school, etc). Rather than keep two identities apart, it easier to just stay inside. A lot of gay celebs get flack for perhaps being out to their closed ones but not to the public at large.

Alex became friends with Zach early on, which allowed Alex entryway to the rest of the jocks, which resulted in that hot or not list. Zach views him as a real friend. He was he first of the group to find out about Alex's suicide. Psychologically, him helping eases his anguish over Hannah's death and his grief over his dad's death.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, Giuseppe said:

Was Chloe in season 1? I honestly don't remember.

According to IMDB, she only appeared in S2. 

[Zima]

All I could think of after the sex scene between Jess and Justin was: Justin's active sex life (which kept being brought up all season) + Use of Needles + unprotected sex with Jess = possible transfer of HIV.*

Count me in with those who were hoping that Tyler would be successful in shooting up some of those assholes.  

*Edited due to NUguy514's response. Thank you!

Edited May 28, 2018 by Zima

[NUguy514]

4 minutes ago, Zima said:

All I could think of after the sex scene between Jess and Justin was: Justin's active sex life (which kept being brought up all season) + Use of Needles + unprotected sex with Jess = possible transfer of AIDS.

I'm going to be uber-pedantic for a second, so forgive me: you can pass on HIV to another person, not AIDS.  People who test HIV+ can live fairly normal lives if they are diagnosed and take medication regularly; it's a bit like living with diabetes in that it's just something to manage.  I'm not directing any of this at you personally, just to be clear.  There is still quite a lack of understanding about HIV/AIDS, and it results in a lot of fear of and prejudice against people living with HIV.  I know a few people who are HIV+ and are afraid to be very open about it because of that; it breaks my heart.

Sorry, carry on.

[BigDfromLA]

The school lawyer is absolutely disgusting. Smug, arrogant, condescending. I think the way that she crucifies each of these kids would offend the jury, make them (justifiably) hate her and hurt her side's case. At least pretend to show a little compassion and sympathy for these kids as you cross examine them. That would go a long way in trying to convince the jury.

 

Skye should delete Clay's number from her phone. He needs to get off her back and let her recover and not call her every ten minutes. But Clay is too selfish for that.

 

Tyler is really turning into a rotten human being. 

 

It's funny that I thought Justin was the most rotten of all of them (along with Bryce) in Season 1, but now I see him in a much more sympathetic light in season 2. Weird.

[Shaynaa]

On 5/22/2018 at 8:13 PM, tennisgurl said:

When Clay was yelling at Ghost Hannah for liking Justin, I was getting a serious Nice Guy vibe from Clay. "Why did you like these others guys! You should have only ever liked nice humble me you bitch!" I know he is still grieving, and he is still a young teenager with a LOT of shit going on, but he has been working my last nerve with his Hannah obsession this season. And of course, when he actually shows some empathy and compassion for poor Alex, he instantly runs off to deal with his Avenging Hannah obsession. 

 

OMG, yes.  He totally sounded like he belonged on /r/incel or wherever the MRA types hang out on reddit.  Were we supposed to find him sympathetic?  I was curious so I looked up the writer.  It was written by Nic Sheff, who is male.  This is the only ep he has written but he was the story editor last season.   Clay is really being so horrid this season and I really am not sure how we are supposed to be viewing him.

I like ghost!Hannah's snark but otherwise the interactions don't really work.  It kind of smacks of them just wanting to give KL something to do.

[kj4ever]

Well that was disturbing...

Unfortunately a friend of mine had an experience like Tyler's.  She had to be hospitalized for 3 days and had a colostomy bag for 2 months while her colon healed. Things are not meant to go that way and people that choose to do that have to plan carefully and slowly to not damage anything.

He would not be walking around seeing how he was attacked and would have probably have bled out by now if he didn't go to the hospital.  The showed the end of the mop handle and how far it had went.  No way and if they were going for realism someone would have found him passed out on the bathroom floor and not going to shoot up the school.

All that points to it being there for shock value to me.

Question....Did I miss a part where they suspended the baseball season because of Tyler?  I just binged the whole thing in two days because I've had a horrible work schedule and haven't had days off in over a month.  The down side is sometimes you miss things when you watch so many in a row.

[Last Time Lord]

2 hours ago, kj4ever said:

Question....Did I miss a part where they suspended the baseball season because of Tyler?

At Bryce’s sentencing, his lawyer mentioned the school  district cancelled the baseball season. 

It wasn’t Tyler specifically, but he certainly brought the issue to everyone’s attention, and unfortunately for him, he was by himself, making him an easy target for Monty’s aggression. 

[truthaboutluv]

34 minutes ago, Last Time Lord said:

At Bryce’s sentencing, his lawyer mentioned the school  district cancelled the baseball season. 

It wasn’t Tyler specifically, but he certainly brought the issue to everyone’s attention, and unfortunately for him, he was by himself, making him an easy target for Monty’s aggression. 

Yeah Monty was pissed off at all the people he feels spoke out in some way. I'm sure if he could have cornered Alex or Clay he would have tried to hurt them too seeing as how he tried to kill Clay once before by running him off the road and of course kept sending Alex threatening messages to try to kill himself again. He wouldn't try it with Tony because he's a bully and bullies don't attack those who they know can fight back. 

[3 is enough]

Add me to the list of those who are questioning how Tyler is still walking around after that attack.  Not realistic at all.

Also, Liberty seems to be a fairly large high school.  How is it that the same group of jocks play on the baseball, football, AND basketball teams?  Usually when high school kids are aiming for college scholarships they pick one sport and focus on it, if for no other reason than to minimize their risk of injury.  Guys like Deion Sanders and Bo Jackson are outliers.  To have a whole school full of them is ridiculous. 

Maybe it is in keeping with his character, but I was wondering why Bryce would even dare to show his face at the dance.  And if the baseball season was cancelled, why would the school allow those athletes to go to the dance anyhow? Seems inconsistent.

Lastly, the horror that was Kate Walsh's hair/wig.  I just could not take any of her scenes seriously.  And then at the end it grew long enough in one month for her to tuck it behind her ears?  No...

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The related incident I remember hapoening in real life at my friend’s high school was from several years ago but this is a more recent case. The school launched an investigation and the athletes who were “punished” were permitted to keep playing football. Their punishment was 50 hours of community service and an 8 page essay explaining their actions. None of them were charged with a crime until a year and a half later in September 2017.

Quote

The student told investigators that he was watching the NCAA basketball tournament in a dorm room on March 19, 2016, when several teammates entered the room and tackled him, according to the documents. The freshman kicked his legs and yelled at them to stop, only to be punched and have his bare legs and wrists wrapped in duct tape, the victim said.

The players put a pillow case over the 19-year-old freshman's head and took him from the residence hall. Though there was a "root beer kegger" taking place in the dorm that night, no students or college employees intervened as the freshman was carried out of the building, according to the records.

The freshman told investigators that he was placed in the back seat of a teammate's vehicle and held down by at least two players while others piled into the vehicle. After the vehicle began moving, the players played Middle Eastern music and made offensive comments about Muslims, according to the victim's account.

At one point, the players suggested to the freshman that he had been kidnapped by Muslims who wanted to fornicate with goats, the teen told investigators. They patted his foot and suggested he would be their "goat" for the evening, the records said.

The freshman told investigators that his teammates restrained him with more duct tape during the drive, pulled down his shorts and underwear, then repeatedly tried to insert an object into his rectum. After the freshman yelled at them to stop, he was beaten, he said.

The players drove to a park located off campus and carried the freshman onto a baseball diamond, according to his account. The players threw dirt on the teen, took his cell phone and left him half-naked on the field, he said.

The freshman, who had just transferred to the college, did not know where he was or how to get back to campus. The temperature that night was about 45 degrees, according to National Weather Service records.

About 10 minutes later, a second player was dumped on the field, he told investigators. The two were eventually driven back to campus by classmates who came looking for the second player.

The freshman returned to his dorm room, called his mother and then drove himself to the hospital. He suffered muscle tears in both shoulders, in addition to various bruises and scratches, the records said.

Each year, Wheaton athletes must sign an anti-hazing policy that prohibits them from humiliating, degrading, abusing and endangering another person when they join a campus team or organization. Both teams and individuals can be punished for taking part in hazing rituals, according to the policy, which has been in place since 2014.

[imakicola]

Zach must be SUPER duper sexy to everyone in this episode.  He is the ONLY person who has successfully convinced Hannah, the girl everyone in the show is attracted to, to consent to not only sexual relations, but to losing her virginity, with him.  She appeared to really, really enjoy the sex too.  Zach also gave Alex an erection, in this very same episode!  On top of that, I’m super thirsty for him.  So there’s that. Haha.  Zach turning everyone on in this episode, over and over again!

[pinkglove]

Oops, I've been sure that Tyler will do what he did since I first saw him buying a gun back in season one and I thought it would end worse (for everyone, for him of course it's hard to imagine a worse trigger). If Tyler's story comes out, will the school finally face some consequences? It showed well how it might not have done much if Mr Porter tried to help Hannah. Clearly, he was no one compared to the baseball coach or even to Bryce and with the system staying the same, a teen who gets help is thrown into the same **** having false hopes that he or she is equipped to deal with it. (I mean, it could probably work, but not in the environment with extreme violence.)

Overall, I don't think the ending was all bad. I liked how they all worked through their differences and (some of the) issues and were there for each other. What kind of ruined it is Jessica having sex with Justin. Sure, it was pretty obvious that she still likes him and she chooses Alex because... well, he seems like a better choice. But acting on it immediately after she finally allowed Alex to kiss her seems like a bit cruel. She is a teenager, but she should have more self control than this. A similar behavior is kind of why she was on the tapes, doing the same to a person who tried to kill himself few months back is asking for more shit to happen. I assume that she became emotional when she saw Clay react to the song, and thought that she shouldn't ignore her feelings, but still, she could have talked to Alex (preferably not right away) and go from there.

I liked how the season showed that there was more story to most of the tapes. For example, I don't think that Hannah was really fair to Zach and Justin. IMO, if Zach was the reason why, I highly doubt it was because of what he did back in school but because she felt rejected. And while it was dumb that he cared more about his bullying friends, I don't think he did anything particularly wrong there - it's his choice who he tells and even if his decision is stupid, it's hardly worthy of putting him through the hell of being on the tapes. I'm less sure about Justin because I don't remember how actively he participated in bullying.

Note: I do know that Hannah saw it all through a distorted lens and I don't blame her, I'm just saying that I feel bad for people who were affected by it. (I guess in the end it helped Zach become better and braver, but still.) The large part of bullying that came her way was because people were afraid of Bryce or wanted to impress him, which is essentially what she did to that girl in her previous school. If only she was emotionally stable to recognize it and maybe look for less popular/more reliable friends. 

I actually binged on both seasons together so I will put one more thing here, but I don't want it to come out wrong. Obviously I'm not blaming Hannah for what Bryce did in ANY way, and I don't want it to seem as a part of the "watch what you wear and you won't get hurt" narrative. I'm just saying that, well, it's kind of depressing that she felt bad and resigned enough (or was it a trauma freeze?) for her healthy impulses to disappear and she didn't run away from staying alone in a bathtub with someone who she knew was a rapist. Again, it doesn't make her responsible for what he did, but it's really, really sad. 

Another thing that I found very sad is that Hannah wanted to share her reasons why with the world but kept those why not hidden on her computer. I do understand it but not leaving anything for her parents kind of surprised me. 

Also, I don't understand why Nina burned all of the photos. Was it because she thought they don't tell the whole story? That some of the girls, like her, would be looked at as if they asked for what happened to them (because they look as if they are having fun)? Well, actually I don't think she burned all of them and that they will come back in some form if there is season three, but we will see. 

I agree with those who said that Hannah's ghost wasn't a great addition, at least most of the time. One exception for me was when Clay went to kill Bryce and Justin stopped him. I thought it was well done how ghost Hannah was messing with his head, I felt his confusion. 

[kj4ever]

Sarah coming and testifying at Hannah's trial was something I didn't see coming.  I had forgot about the comments in season one about the same thing not happening at this school - but I guess at the time I assumed she was bullied at her former school too.

The fact that she was one of the bullies makes the story much more interesting to me.  I can imagine those people on the jury, hearing all these stories about her being bullied and then BAM this girl comes on the stand and talks about how she had to quit school because it was so incredibly bad.

I think their case was lost then and there.

It's also interesting that Tony gave the Hannah perspective that she only did what she did because she wanted to fit in.  Sounds a lot like the people that bullied her.  Not that it makes it right, but definitely adds an interesting twist to the story.

[memememe76]

Aside from the fact that Sarah should not have been a surprise to Team Baker (I hate legal dramas), the lawyer should have highlighted how Hannah's former school reacted to bully in comparison to Liberty. Hannah was placed in an unsympathetic light, but it doesn't mean her treatment at Liberty is somehow okay. I use Tyler as an example of this too. 

[AzraeltheCat]

On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 5:33 PM, BigDfromLA said:

Since Courtney was raised by two gay fathers, I would imagine that she would have absolutely no problem "coming out" from day one, if she was gay. It would be completely normal and legitimate for her. I don't get her apprehension. 

I don't think she was worried about rejection from her dads.  She was worked about the reaction at school, having seen the slurs used and rumors spread, she did not  want to be the center of attention and called the derogatory names of "Lesbo" or "Dyke."  In fact, since she's probably already had to deal with some intolerance with regard to her dads, it might have made her even more scared to come out. Just my take on it.  

Edited May 30, 2018 by AzraeltheCat

[truthaboutluv]

On 5/29/2018 at 6:27 AM, pinkglove said:

I'm less sure about Justin because I don't remember how actively he participated in bullying.

Justin had two tapes and that's because Hannah called him out first for allowing the picture he took up her skirt to spread around and silently allowing rumors to spread that they slept together when he knew it wasn't true. His second tape was to call him out for cowardly standing by while his best friend raped his girlfriend and lying about it. Yes, he tried to stop it, yes he was clearly broken up over what was happening while sitting outside but he still did nothing and then later proceeded to feed Jessica the lie that they hooked up and then of course continued being friends with Bryce. Those were the reasons Hannah included Justin on the tapes. 

Yeah the Jessica/Justin hookup is just messy all around but I saw it coming a mile away. I did laugh when Clay asked Justin if he'd seen Jessica when they were panicking over Tyler and Justin, so guilty, goes, "no, why..." in this really paranoid voice. That was funny. I also thought Alex looked slightly suspicious. 

[Jax7917]

I can't explain why but Hannah's mom annoys me .. and why is she wearing that awful wig this season ? 

The over use of the F word is really distracting for me in this show . Every character says the it at least twice a sentence for pretty much no reason . 

Clay needs a hobby 

Edited May 30, 2018 by Jaclyn88

[BigDfromLA]

That school is a cesspool. A massive fight in the hallways? Multiple students would be suspended and/or expelled, but not at Liberty. Where were the adults, security, cops (or at least campus cops) would have been called. Where was the bureaucrat principal? I can't believe that every single adult could be so clueless and out to lunch, as they have been since the start of the show. Everyone from the principal to the lowest janitor should be fired at that school. A complete housecleaning is truly needed there. Why is Porter still there...he should have been fired months before that.

I have always thought Tyler was a creepy, disgusting idiot from day one. He has this girl who is out of his league actually interested in him, and he not only rejects her, but treats her like crap? What's wrong with this guy? He obviously needs therapy. 

[LakeGal]

Clay annoys me so much.  He always wants everyone else to come out and tell their story.  Yet we did not see Clay going to the authorities about his beating in the locker room.  He doesn't report getting driven off the road on his bike.  He can hide what happens to him.  But he expects everyone else to be so open about what happens to them.

I am still laughing they couldn't find the clubhouse.  It is just a few yards from the playing field.  Where did they think it was?

[Jax7917]

I feel more and more annoyed with Clay during each episode. Why is he so "woe is me" about Hannah having a life outside of him? They weren't even boyfriend and girlfriend let alone friends for very long. He keeps whining and crying that "how dare she  have talked to another guy besides me" which is very confusing to me as a viewer because even though they both had a crush on each other while she was alive, it never struck me that they were that close outside of working together and having a few talks.

I know i'm in the minority and I 100 % understand why Olivia wanted to pursue a court case out of anger and being hurt, but I'm not on board that Hannah's suicide was the schools fault. Could they have done more? Yes. They could have. I cringed when the guidance counselor said "just move on."... but to not bring up mental illness at all during this and just put the blame on other people feels irresponsible and I don't blame the jury for voting the other way. What Bryce did to Hannah should be on trial but everyone else? I don't think so.

[Cornhusker12]

On 5/31/2018 at 11:12 AM, LakeGal said:

I am still laughing they couldn't find the clubhouse.  It is just a few yards from the playing field.  Where did they think it was?

I was cracking up at this as well, I think someone literally even said "how did you find this place??" hahah

[Cornhusker12]

On 5/26/2018 at 7:10 PM, truthaboutluv said:

Honestly, this is probably going to be massively unpopular, but I understand Clay's reaction. The Hannah obsessing is ridiculous and over the top, but I get his confusion and freak outs about some of the testimonies. I don't think Clay was thinking that if what Bryce was saying was true and that he and Hannah did hook up in the past, it meant he didn't rape Hannah because again, Bryce admitted what he did and he was still dogged on getting Bryce even while struggling with the information. And after all, Chloe was dating Bryce so she'd obviously slept with him and they called what Bryce did in the pictures to her, rape, which it was. I don't think Clay was suddenly questioning that Bryce raped Hannah based on what Bryce said. He was struggling with whether or not they could have had something at some point and I get it. 

I think the issue Clay was having is essentially that in his mind, Hannah left these tapes to tell her story, to tell why she killed herself or so she said on the tapes and yet so much of that story was left out, like an entire relationship with Zach. So if there was so much she didn't tell, how then can they really know that everything she said was really true? And it's not necessarily the rape but think back to Jessica in Season 1 saying that it was Hannah who ended the friendship, not her and Alex. Basically I think Clay feels like Hannah dropped this bombshell on them, calling people out and telling her truth as she remembered it. Only to now find out that so much of that truth was left out. I don't think it's unreasonable that yes he's struggling with wondering if he ever really knew her at all.

And just so it's clear, I'm not saying Hannah was wrong for not telling parts about her life that she didn't want to on the tapes.  And I'm not saying that she deserved to be slut shamed or blamed for everything that happened to her because she was nice to and maybe too trusting to assholes who didn't deserve it. I'm just saying that while frustrating and not perfect, I understand Clay's struggle and feelings. No, it's not right or perfect but none of these characters are perfect. 

Great post, and I definitely agree with the gist of this part. I think another aspect of the Bryce stuff that made him trip out so bad because in his mind, OBVIOUSLY Bryce is evil, he raped Hannah, he was always evil, Hannah would NEVER accidentally connect with an evil person like him, etc. But if what Bryce said had been true, that he and Hannah had a weird loving connection for awhile and "made love" a bunch of times, it destroyed him inside to suddenly have to wonder whether Hannah could have had even a single a positive thought about the guy who would later rape her, let alone a relationship. 

His brain couldn't handle any bit of gray area into that part of the story, not when he knew what a lying evil piece of shit Bryce was. It didn't lessen what happened to Hannah, but it lessens (in Clay's mind) the way that he thought he knew her and her story, and made him wonder how much else he never knew.

[marieYOTZ]

What happened to the polaroids of Chloe??  Did the lawyer not have them or know about them? Sorry, but when Chloe was like “oh i remember it was consensual” i’d have definitely shown her those pictures and been like “so this is you right after you consented? Drooling on the arm of this couch?” 

I can definitely understand a rape victim not wanting to come forward, but i’m struggling to believe as it becomes apparent that he’s raped any number of girls - and they all now know about each other - that not ONE of them is raring to look him in the eyes and call him a raping rapist. I mean really, NO ONE? It’s good to acknowledge that some survivors of sexual assault struggle to publically acknowledge what happened in the face of all that comes with doin so - but there ARE survivors who are like “lemme tell the world what pond scum that guy is”. I would think at the point they’re at in terms of their knowledge of what he’s done to each of them that they’d have some collective strength to call him out now that they didn’t when maybe they thought they were totally alone in what happened to them. I just don’t get it. Are they all planning to go to school with the guy for the rest of the year knowing that he’s a serial rapist?? I mean the evidence against him now is stacked a mile high - photos (assuming that the polaroids of Chloe are still out there, which i have to believe they are), a confession, multiple victims, at least one eye-witness - this is like the world’s most solid rape case - and still NOTHING?? What was believable when dealing with each individual case has become absurd in the aggregate.