S13.E22: Exodus

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

do not understand why Sam is allowed to go off and take some time for herself and she is not.

I don't know if you read those episode threads but most around here gave her benefit of doubt that she would leave and then reconnect. The boys tried to give her benefit and Dean had a harder time with it than Sam despite Words With Friends. 

Instead, she avoided them like plague. That's the issue. Then her attacking Lucifer was never about her going into the AU. That was a damn accident becaue Lucifer grabbed onto her. She didn't do it on purpose.

And now she is staying on purpose still instead of spending any time trying to know her sons as the people they are and give them any of her heart. That's the issue IMO.  And it's somehow being turned into something Dean NEVER SAID NOR WANTED. Never.  It's a false premise.

So her staying behind in the AU because 'YAY SOLDIER' has not be earned at all.

Edited May 11, 2018 by catrox14

[BoxManLocke]

4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Mary was written exactly the way Sam and Dean are written. In fact she was written to fulfill many of character behaviors Sam did in seasons 1-5: she ran away from Dean, lied to Dean, betrayed Dean by working with the enemy, was possessed by a demon, became a vessel controlled by someone else and finally pushed the devil through a supernatural rift disappearing herself.

Now it was perfectly okay for Sam to take time to clear his head even though it hurt Dean and for the most part the majority of fandom does not care Sam for betraying Dean, etc.  Mary behaves exactly the same way, does not even start the Apocalypse or beat him to a pulp and she is the worst thing ever.

I like the way she is written. She had traits of both of her sons... the good and the bad.  She is flawed and heroic just like a Winchester should be.

How is she like Dean.  She sacrifices herself for her son's without a thought more than once. It took a lot of cvourage to beat up Kucifer and go through rhat rift. Who gives her credit.  She is fighting AU Michael after having been tortured by him.  Who gives her credit.  She is on record saying she worked with the BMOL and hunted day and night in the hopes that one day her s ons,would not have to hunt.  Dean has said much the same thing.  She also obviously uses manic hunting to deal with things just like Dean.

They are grown men. She had extreme culture shock.  She has a right to extreme emotions and she has a right to deal with them however she wishes.  How can you expect a woman who has been tbrough what she has been through behave like a teenaged girl or the fantasy memories of a four year old boy.

I think the writing and acting for her has been surprisingly great.

She is a Winchester.

 

 

Yeah, Mary is a Winchester if all we'd seen of Sam and Dean throughout the years was their fuckups, and if they had been absent for long streches of episodes, had received no character development at all and if the show wouldn't tell me what they were fighting for. Rest assured, Sam and Dean would be shit characters too in that case.

 

Mary's POV and development has been extremely spotty throughout season 12 and completely nonexistent this season. She gets an episode every three months. So does her glorious cause. And whenever she pops in she either makes a questionable decision or brings angst to Sam and Dean. So what great writing are we even talking about here ? There's nothing there. I can't think of a single character who received such poor treatment from the writers. The only time they really cared about making her a fleshed-out character was in the first half of season 12.

 

Look, I'll always defend Mary's presence on the show, if they would use her as a member of the team, like Castiel, I'm sure that would work, but what she is now is a token badass female character, a Sam/Dean angst machine and a plot device. No time to make the British Men Of Letters interesting ? Well remember you should care, because Mary's with them ! No time to make the AU interesting ? Well remember you should care, because Mary's in it ! And look how badass she is ! And... that's it.

 

I see enough great female characters in other mediums to recognize a shit one when it's in front of me. It's insulting how they're treating such an important character. It's all on the writers, and everyone especially women should demand better from them.

[devlin]

Something I loved about the end when they are all celebrating and bobby made special mention of the boys, whilst sam seemed to be lapping it up( I could be wrong coz I can’t read his expressions for the life of me) dean looked very uncomfortable with the attention and whole situation and didn’t seem to be in a celebratory mood at all

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Well, there goes the episode.  Damn Yankees.  Does anyone know if CW will be showing it again on Saturday?  (And could some kind person do a short recap when the ep's over?  Thank you, thank you!)

This is from memory.

THEN mostly about Jack's surrogate fathers and Lucifer... 

Opens where we left off.  Happiness thst Sam is alive.  Anger about Lucifer.  Lucifer attempting rebranding and wants to join TFW and parlay time with Jack.  Everyone does not want Jack in contact with Lucifer.  Jack is confused and upset. Angry Dean is very mad and starts yelling. No talking. Kill him.  He wants Gabriel to immediately kill Lucifer.  Gabriel is hesitant because he is a red shirt walking wirh limp grace.  Dean continues to yell. Jack teleports away and Gabriel goes to look for him. They hand cuff Lucifer.

Jack sits looking sad and has a vision montage of Kelly and patenting from Castiel and Sam who all tell him about choosing to be who he is.  Then visions of Lucifer communicating with him in the womb .  He also remembers people he hurt and killed with his power and people rhat died because of choices he made (exploding Kevin tran).

He pops back and decides he wants to talk to dad. Cas reluctantly observes and watches in horror as Lucifer manages to twist the truth in his favor as the Prince of Lies is wont to do.  Jack appears to be open to Lucifer and dad seems to be preparing him to rule the world by his side giving him family history although no one else, like Uncle Gabe, agrees with his accounting.

Meanwhile the Winchesters learn from Lucifer that they have 31 hours of rift left. They want to skadaddle (sp?) But Mary cannot leave the people there.  So they decide to take everyone and come up with a plan to defeat evil Michael at the Bunker then return! Hell  yeah!!!

They head to Bobby's salvage yard which is not in SD and Lucifer just vaporizes a bunch of sngels so easily and melts his cuffs and is a jerk about it.

Dean and Sam give a presentation about how cool the MoL bunker is with the lore and the weapons and that they are old hands at stooping Apocalyotic stuff.  The ragtag resistance will vite and anyone  rhat wabts to can go to SPNverse.

Elsewhere Ketch and Charlie tbink they are rescuing a human about to be executed by an angel death squad bit it is a trap and the totally reformed Ketch gives himself up rather than abandon Charlie to immediat death.  Ketch is tortured which is hard for Charlie to watch and then they bring in the big guns which is AU Castiel channeling a Nazi torturer with a milky eye.  It is so bad that it is good... sort of.

The good guys find out and our Cas tortures a turncoat for Intel and the Winchesters and Cas stage a raid in which all 3 Winchesters kill angels I think,  Dean saves Ketch who quips despite his pain and cas kills Cas.

Back at the ranch they realize they are nearly out of time.  Even though Bobby said he would never escape to out world he does and so does everyone else except the sad red shirts rhat do not make it.  But first Dean quickly repairs a bus single handedly... but sadly not to music and he keeps his shirt on.

Jack wants to stsy alone to kill Micharl and to Sam's horror Lucifer is able to convince him to go with.  Jack is listening to dad. The rift looks weak and people slowly shuffle through. Rowena is exhausted and looks shocked at all of the strangers popping in.  Finally it is just the two archangels and the two Winchester men left.  Oh and some red shirts  get killed by a fireball  prior to AU Michael landing. He exchanges words wirh Lucifer who actually decides to fight and let the others go through. But they all stay gawking.  I assume because they want front row seats to Le Mort du Lucifer.  

Lucifer gets his add kicked and AU Michael is really on fire. Then he notices Gabriel and Gabriel is like .... dudes go.... i will hold him off... and the Winchesters stand there and gawk and watch Gabriel quickly be dispatched...

Then Dean is like... hey this is going to close and the fight is over let's go and Sam is like let me do this ... they already discussed earlier that Sam gets to finish Lucifer  but um...Sam's plans have a way of not working ..

Anyhow... Dean pops through without Sam and Sam gives Lucifer a bitchfaces a knocks him down which really should not have worked... I mean at least go shabby with An angel blade.... but whatever... Lucifer falls down whining and Sam jumps through the rift before it closes...

Everyone celebrates in the Bunker and is happy except for Jack who is sad and alone.  Bobby gives a speech.  Dean and Sam assume AU Michael killed Lucifer.

Doh. Back in AU sniveling  Lucifer has made a deal.  He will show AU Michael how to open the rift to our world. He gets his son. Michael gets everything else.  AU Michael looks estatic.  Lucifer looks guilty.

Lucifer namecheckef our Michael this episode.  Said something about his really good looks...lol.

Definitely a straight line to Dean!Michae.l 

Promo went by quickly.  Definitely saw Dean jump into the air and body slam someone.  That is major archangel fighting mehinks.

48 minutes ago, devlin said:

Something I loved about the end when they are all celebrating and bobby made special mention of the boys, whilst sam seemed to be lapping it up( I could be wrong coz I can’t read his expressions for the life of me) dean looked very uncomfortable with the attention and whole situation and didn’t seem to be in a celebratory mood at all

Yeah.  Dean knows it is too goid to be true 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I don't know if you read those episode threads but most around here gave her benefit of doubt that she would leave and then reconnect. The boys tried to give her benefit and Dean had a harder time with it than Sam despite Words With Friends. 

Instead, she avoided them like plague. That's the issue. Then her attacking Lucifer was never about her going into the AU. That was a damn accident becaue Lucifer grabbed onto her. She didn't do it on purpose.

And now she is staying on purpose still instead of spending any time trying to know her sons as the people they are and give them any of her heart. That's the issue IMO.  And it's somehow being turned into something Dean NEVER SAID NOR WANTED. Never.  It's a false premise.

So her staying behind in the AU because 'YAY SOLDIER' has not be earned at all.

 

She went after him with brass knuckles and said her good byes to her boys.

"

And now she is staying on purpose still instead of spending any time trying to know her sons as the people they are and give them any of her heart. That's the issue IMO.  And it's somehow being turned into something Dean NEVER SAID NOR WANTED. Never.  It's a false premise.

So her staying behind in the AU because 'YAY SOLDIER' has not be earned at all"

This was bad writing to get AU Michael here and create tension, drama.  Also yeah... TFW with Bobby! Not sure why they did that except that This how they are going to get rid of her.  She won't be dead per st but she will be gone.

The hate for her otherwise strikes me as sexist and ridiculous when she acts exactly like her sons.  

Edited May 11, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, BoxManLocke said:

 

 

Yeah, Mary is a Winchester if all we'd seen of Sam and Dean throughout the years was their fuckups, and if they had been absent for long streches of episodes, had received no character development at all and if the show wouldn't tell me what they were fighting for. Rest assured, Sam and Dean would be shit characters too in that case.

 

Mary's POV and development has been extremely spotty throughout season 12 and completely nonexistent this season. She gets an episode every three months. So does her glorious cause. And whenever she pops in she either makes a questionable decision or brings angst to Sam and Dean. So what great writing are we even talking about here ? There's nothing there. I can't think of a single character who received such poor treatment from the writers. The only time they really cared about making her a fleshed-out character was in the first half of season 12.

 

Look, I'll always defend Mary's presence on the show, if they would use her as a member of the team, like Castiel, I'm sure that would work, but what she is now is a token badass female character, a Sam/Dean angst machine and a plot device. No time to make the British Men Of Letters interesting ? Well remember you should care, because Mary's with them ! No time to make the AU interesting ? Well remember you should care, because Mary's in it ! And look how badass she is ! And... that's it.

 

I see enough great female characters in other mediums to recognize a shit one when it's in front of me. It's insulting how they're treating such an important character. It's all on the writers, and everyone especially women should demand better from them.

She is never getting that trearment because she is not a main character.

She had only been on two seasons.  

They used her to facilitate Dean's emotional arc and her storyline deliberately mirrored Sam's early ones in relation to Dean orctwo reasons. First to pedicure another Apocalypse coming.  Two to subtextually indicate Dean!Michael because Sam was not involved in the storyline because Mary was getting his arcs.  Then when Lucifer received his customized Nicksuit and AU Michael was introduced as an antagonist much worse than Lucifer, then Dean!Michael was absolutely assured.

So her character was a victim of the writing.  They needed her to be this way for subtext and to contribute multiple layers to Dean's emotional storyline, which I have written about elsewhere and which was dobe brilliantly.  This is the fate of a secondary character.

Cas is just lucky that his initial role was to grip Dean tight and lift him from perdition. That and the profound bond have carried him through a lot of terrible storylines.

If the show continues she may get her own arcs and then she may get developed.  I think we did see some in her interactions wirh Jack which is to be expected because He is so childlike. He needed her and she needed him to work through her time shock emotional issues. 

Personally I did not like Sam until post season 11.

I feel in love with Crowley when I realized rhat he was actually witness to and  mourning  Dean's loss of humanity.  As much as he wanted Demon Dean he mourned the loss of human Dean.  Mark Sheppard's performance was a thing of beauty in the second half of seadon 9 and throughout season 10., especially in  that season 9 finale. Well Crowley and Dean after Dean g or the MoC were always a treat. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

57 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't know if you read those episode threads but most around here gave her benefit of doubt that she would leave and then reconnect. The boys tried to give her benefit and Dean had a harder time with it than Sam despite Words With Friends. 

Instead, she avoided them like plague. That's the issue. Then her attacking Lucifer was never about her going into the AU. That was a damn accident becaue Lucifer grabbed onto her. She didn't do it on purpose.

And now she is staying on purpose still instead of spending any time trying to know her sons as the people they are and give them any of her heart. That's the issue IMO.  And it's somehow being turned into something Dean NEVER SAID NOR WANTED. Never.  It's a false premise.

So her staying behind in the AU because 'YAY SOLDIER' has not be earned at all.

She was pulling a Dean and hunting like mad to work through her issues for what... months... keeping in contact by text and phone calls like family does.  And her goal was to make the world safe so her boys would not have to hunt!!!.... which is just about the most Dean thing ever. He has said the same thing in season 8 about closing the gates of hell.

[BoxManLocke]

15 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

She is never getting that trearment because she is not a main character.

 

Lucifer, Rowena,  Gabriel and Jack all got better treatment. Are they main characters ?

 

Now if she was written like say, Bobby, as an outside character that's there to help sometimes but whose absences make sense, there wouldn't be an issue. The problem is that the writers are making her be the center of attention, but are not willing to use her accordingly. Hence the disconnect.

Edited May 11, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[Female83]

What was with AU!Cass' German accent? Jimmy was American, German. I liked that we finally got to see Michael's wings. 

[Castiels Cat]

Just now, Female83 said:

What was with AU!Cass' German accent? Jimmy was American, German. I liked that we finally got to see Michael's wings. 

Anything can be different in the AU

[Castiels Cat]

3 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

Lucifer, Rowena,  Gabriel and Jack all got better treatment. Are they main characters ?

 

Now if she was written like say, Bobby, as an outside character that's there to help sometimes but whose absences make sense, there wouldn't be an issue. The problem is that the writers are making her be the center of attention, but are not willing to use her accordingly. Hence the disconnect.

She is being written like a combination of Sam and Dean.  She has Sam's negative traits and Dean's heroic traits.  Tbis was done deliberately to further Dean's emotional storyline and also subtextually to him that the upcoming mytharc.

Everything she did in one season Sam did in several seasons. Because Sam is a main character we also I saw him every week do other things.  None of those other characters were every used in a storyline this way. She was deliberately used to trigger Dean's emotional storylines from losing Mary at 4, saving Sam throughout seasons 1-5:And losing Sam during the Apocalypse.

She did a bunch of heroic Dean things too which no one seems to have noticed. Lol.  

Whatever.

The writers did a great job with This and so did the actors and it was extremely importantin leading up to Dean's emotional state this year.

They really excelled with this.

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Anything can be different in the AU

It can be, but in this case, IMO, it was silly and distracting. If this universe is close enough to ours that there's still a Jimmy Novak, it is at least very unlikely that he'd be German. It only works at all if we assume Jimmy's parents in our world were both immigrants who moved to the US sometime before Jimmy's birth or when he was very young, and wound up staying in their home country in this world. Which is possible,  but again, distracting --especially as Jimmy Novak was more or less coded as a heartland WASP -- if you're not going to do anything with it. This was supposed to be a serious scene; if they'd met an AU Garth, or something, and he'd randomly sounded Australian, and the Winchesters had gotten a "that's weird" reaction, that would be one thing. Didn't work here, IMO. 

 

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

She is being written like a combination of Sam and Dean.  She has Sam's negative traits and Dean's heroic traits.  Tbis was done deliberately to further Dean's emotional storyline and also subtextually to him that the upcoming mytharc.

Everything she did in one season Sam did in several seasons. Because Sam is a main character we also I saw him every week do other things.  None of those other characters were every used in a storyline this way. She was deliberately used to trigger Dean's emotional storylines from losing Mary at 4, saving Sam throughout seasons 1-5:And losing Sam during the Apocalypse.

She did a bunch of heroic Dean things too which no one seems to have noticed. Lol.  

Whatever.

The writers did a great job with This and so did the actors and it was extremely importantin leading up to Dean's emotional state this year.

They really excelled with this.

Even if you're totally right with the writers' narrative intentions, if the end result is a crappy character, it is still bad writing. Mary isn't a minor character; she's a supporting character. Which means that she's going to play second banana to Sam and Dean and their growth, but that she still is spending enough time on our screen that she should have some kind of satisfying arc in her own right. 

I actually don't hate Mary at all, and find a lot of her actions sympathetic, but I also don't think she's been used particularly effectively. That's not because I or other people haven't noticed what's going on. It is because I wanted more from her and her relationship with her sons. The show could have kept many of the same emotional beats while still, for instance, not having her hunt with Sam and Dean for a grand total of one episode before leaving, and then get sent to an AU immediately after their end of season reconciliation. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by companionenvy

[Jediknight]

7 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Personally I think Dean was right that Jack should not have been allowed to listen to Lucifer, period. Mainly because Jack came across as extremely stupid in this episode. Asking Lucifer why everyone hates him so much? Seriously? In the first place, Jack certainly had enough time while in the MOL bunker to gather this information himself -- it's not like the answer was a big secret. And in the second place, does it not occur to Jack that Lucifer has reason to lie to him? Jack has been around long enough now that it makes him look like an idiot to be so credulous and naive. (His stupidity in this area is only matched of course by Mary, with her "Oh, pish! What could possibly go wrong with allowing Jack to spend time with Lucifer? Absolutely nothing to worry about!")

I had no problem with what Mary was saying.  She's spent all this time with Jack in the AU, and she's seen that Jack is nice, polite, and just wants to help humanity.  She has faith that Jack will reject the crap Lucifer is shoveling.  I found it stupid how Sam and Dean didn't trust Jack.  They literally spent an entire season on rejecting their destiny and being Team Free Will.  They should have extended that same courtesy to Jack.  So far they've seen that Jack is nice, polite, wants to help humanity, considers the Winchesters and Castiel his family, and the one time he did hurt somebody accidentally it crushed him.  They should have known that Jack would have stomped Lucifer if Lucifer tried anything.

The story should have been that they warn Jack, but they trust him.  They don't purposefully leave Lucifer behind, but he gets left behind by AU Michael grabbing him or something.  At this point, Sam and Dean really should have been showing the kind of trust in Jack that Mary showed.  Like I said they should have warned Jack about Lucifer, but told him if he has any questions he can always ask them.

[companionenvy]

21 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

I had no problem with what Mary was saying.  She's spent all this time with Jack in the AU, and she's seen that Jack is nice, polite, and just wants to help humanity.  She has faith that Jack will reject the crap Lucifer is shoveling.  I found it stupid how Sam and Dean didn't trust Jack.  They literally spent an entire season on rejecting their destiny and being Team Free Will.  They should have extended that same courtesy to Jack.  So far they've seen that Jack is nice, polite, wants to help humanity, considers the Winchesters and Castiel his family, and the one time he did hurt somebody accidentally it crushed him.  They should have known that Jack would have stomped Lucifer if Lucifer tried anything.

The story should have been that they warn Jack, but they trust him.  They don't purposefully leave Lucifer behind, but he gets left behind by AU Michael grabbing him or something.  At this point, Sam and Dean really should have been showing the kind of trust in Jack that Mary showed.  Like I said they should have warned Jack about Lucifer, but told him if he has any questions he can always ask them.

For me, it isn't a matter of trusting Jack, or thinking he will have no power to resist. It is realizing that a master manipulator shouldn't be given free reign to fill a still very young being's head with whatever version of the truth he pleases. Jack doesn't have to actively decide that evil is awesome and he wants to kill humans in order to be manipulated by Luci into doing something bad for what Lucifer convinces him is the good of humanity.

I agree that Jack had to be allowed to talk to Lucifer. But the lack of any but totally ineffectual, half-hearted attempts to tell Jack exactly who his father is and what he has done was ridiculous. Like, when Lucifer says "Humanity was flawed, and I recognized that," you say "You didn't just think humanity was flawed, you wanted to start an apocalypse to wipe out the entire race." Or when Lucifer says "I've made some mistakes and manipulated some people," you say something like "He tortured me for over a century/Did xyz evil thing when I was acting as his vessel/committed the following known acts of intentional violence and murder, which is very different from you accidentally killing someone during a hunt."

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Didn't someone say in a previous episode that going into the rift changes someone? Or did I make that up in my head.

I think yu made that up in your head.  I seriously don't remember that.

 

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Actually, it doesn't matter if she came onto him first or not. Kelly thought she was having sex with President Jeff. She could not consent to sex with Lucifer because she did not know that's who was controlling President Jeff. 

 

Where do you draw the line?  Can someone not consent to sex with some guy in a bar because he gives a fake name or says he's a millionaire, so she consented to have sex with Joe Smith the Millionaire, not John Jones the thousandaire.  I think stuff like this minimizes real rape.

She did have several conversations with him post-possession and still wanted to have sex with the entity she was conversing with, whether or not she knew it was a different entity.

 

8 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Replied to someone else who wondered why Jimmy Novak spoke German accented English .  He spoke German accented English because whoever Castiel possessed in the AU was a native German speaker who looked like Jimmy Novak.

IMO, that's equally ridiculous.  But, I suppose I should expect ridiculousness and just embrace it at this point.

 

8 hours ago, companionenvy said:

- The Exodus plan made no sense, because Sam and Dean didn't have any solid intel or aid to offer, and it should have been obvious, to Bobby at least, that crossing the portal was a dicey enough thing that there wasn't a guarantee that they'd be able to get back. "Come to my bunker in another universe; we have a library" shouldn't actually be a great sales pitch for people who are committed to staying and fighting it out in the AU.

And, if we're working off the theory that this is an AU that split off when Mary said no to Azazel, shouldn't that same library exist in the AU?  They don't have the key,but when did that ever stop anyone from getting into the impregnable bunker?

Edited May 11, 2018 by Katy M

[companionenvy]

26 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Where do you draw the line?  Can someone not consent to sex with some guy in a bar because he gives a fake name or says he's a millionaire, so she consented to have sex with Joe Smith the Millionaire, not John Jones the thousandaire.  I think stuff like this minimizes real rape.

She did have several conversations with him post-possession and still wanted to have sex with the entity she was conversing with, whether or not she knew it was a different entity.

 

I tend to agree with you in most cases, but literally impersonating another person seems a different matter than other kinds of deception, to me. . I also think it depends on the level of trust that is presumed to exist in the relationship. On the show Once Upon a Time, there is one plot in which a woman kills and then impersonates a character's wife, and another plot in which a witch disguises herself as a young woman and then seduces a man into a one night stand. In both cases, the goal is pregnancy, and both incidents are sometimes called rape by fandom. I think only the first is, because there was a pre-existing intimate relationship between the supposed partners of the affair, whereas in the second, the man didn't know and had no real reason to trust the young woman he was supposed to be sleeping with either. It was deception, not rape.

Kelly was in the first category, in my eyes. There was no reason for her to think her long-term lover, who she apparently trusted, was anything other than what he appeared to be, and Lucifer took advantage of that. 

43 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And, if we're working off the theory that this is an AU that split off when Mary said no to Azazel, shouldn't that same library exist in the AU?  They don't have the key,but when did that ever stop anyone from getting into the impregnable bunker?

This is...an excellent point. Unless Sam and Dean were willing to stay, they wouldn't have had the advantage of their experience even if they found the bunker, but that doesn't seem like a compelling enough reason for everyone else to take off through a magic portal. Especially as Sam and Dean's ability to stop the apocalypse in their world had to do with them being vessels, and no one has indicated that Dean is a vessel of AU-Michael (although I'd imagine he could be), that AU-Michael has any interest in our Dean, or that a Swan Song scenario is being contemplated by anyone as a possible solution to their problems. So it is hard to see what useful information the Winchesters could be expected to offer. 

[Ray Adverb]

I liked this episode.  I like most episodes that aren't "monster of the week" variety.  I don't understand why the boys left Gabriel and Lucifer for last.  Now that they have no archangels, how are they going to open that rift again?

[Bobcatkitten]

AU Cas was just cringeworthy. Didn't feel it. At. All.

 

When Mary was talking about how Jack fought and lost people it was the biggest WTF moment. Oh really? Your sons have been fighting for years and lost pretty much everyone they loved. Jesus. 

 

The bro hug was amazing. Those two. 

 

Way too much Lucifer. And why didn't anyone say some of the bad shit he did in front of Jack - like torture Sam or kill innocent people? I liked his talk with Gabriel though. Good stuff. 

One good thing is this so-called redemption arc for Lucifer has to be over now that he connived to turn the world over to Michael 

[Wynne88]

9 minutes ago, RayAdverb said:

Now that they have no archangels, how are they going to open that rift again?

I was wondering this too as we watched them celebrate in the bunker and Bobby make the speech about going back to save their people.  I didn't personally think that either Sam or Dean seemed too concerned about it, but it's obvious that they haven't shared the news with Bobby that they left behind an important ingredient for the spell.  We know that Michael is presumably an option, but at this point, it's not one that has occurred to any of them.  I also wondered when Dean that that Sam had taken care of Lucifer - does he know that he didn't actually kill him?

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I also wondered when Dean that that Sam had taken care of Lucifer - does he know that he didn't actually kill him?

I think he must, because Sam really had no way to do so.  He could have grabbed Gabriel's blade, I guess, but didn't really seem like he had time to do that in the time between when Dean jumped thrugh and Sam jumped through.  I think they are assuming, and it's actually not the worst assumption as far as assuming goes, that Michael would kill him.

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

. I think only the first is, because there was a pre-existing intimate relationship between the supposed partners of the affair, whereas in the second, the man didn't know and had no real reason to trust th

It can still be rape because once the ability to give informed consent goes away, it's rape.  A person cannot consent to having sex with someone they don't know exists. 

I don't think Kelly and Jeff had sex until Lucifer possessed him. The

4 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

I was wondering this too as we watched them celebrate in the bunker and Bobby make the speech about going back to save their people.  I didn't personally think that either Sam or Dean seemed too concerned about it, but it's obvious that they haven't shared the news with Bobby that they left behind an important ingredient for the spell.  We know that Michael is presumably an option, but at this point, it's not one that has occurred to any of them.  I also wondered when Dean that that Sam had taken care of Lucifer - does he know that he didn't actually kill him?

 Jack is back. They can use his archangel grace.   

Edited May 11, 2018 by catrox14

[Ray Adverb]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I think he must, because Sam really had no way to do so.  He could have grabbed Gabriel's blade, I guess, but didn't really seem like he had time to do that in the time between when Dean jumped thrugh and Sam jumped through.  I think they are assuming, and it's actually not the worst assumption as far as assuming goes, that Michael would kill him.

Grabbing Gabriel's blade would have been useless.  As Ketch pointed out in a previous episode, the Archangel Blade must be wielded by an archangel to kill another archangel.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I also wondered when Dean that that Sam had taken care of Lucifer - does he know that he didn't actually kill him?

I think he believed that Sam killed him.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, RayAdverb said:

Grabbing Gabriel's blade would have been useless.  As Ketch pointed out in a previous episode, the Archangel Blade must be wielded by an archangel to kill another archangel.

I don't know that that's true, though. Uriel also said that only angels could kill other angesl and that turned out to be patently false.  seeing as how other angel blades can be used by anyone, I've no doubt the archangel blade can also. Until I see an archangel blade fail to work by a lesser being, I'm going with that it can.

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

don't know that that's true, though. Uriel also said that only angels could kill other angesl and that turned out to be patently false.  seeing as how other angel blades can be used by anyone, I've no doubt the archangel blade can also. Until I see an archangel blade fail to work by a lesser being, I'm going with that it ca

The show changed it's lore.   Why would they have bothered to introduce that entire concept if they didn't intend it to be a thing now.  I don't think it's a red herring or a MacGuffin. 

Gabriel had the archangel blade. He just wasn't a good enough fighter against AU Michael.  Of course, I think back to Cas stabbing Lucifer in the AU with an angel blade and it didn't work. Why he did that is beyond me. He knew it wouldn't work because back in s5 each archangel had their own archangel blade and that is what Gabriel used to try and kill Lucifer...you know until the writers decided it wasn't. 

[Bergamot]

Oh yes, Jack certainly is "nice and polite". And full of generic teenage angst, and every step of his character arc has been totally predictable and boring. Not exactly what you hope for when Lucifer's son is added to the show as an important character. The show waited all season to bring about the first meeting between Jack and Lucifer, and the immediate result was a scene where Jack sits alone in the forest with an expression of teenage angst and we watch flashbacks of his (brief) life story. (The writers on this show love flashbacks -- such a lazy, uncreative way to tell a story.) An awkward conversation where Lucifer burbles on inanely about how this "dad thing" is "new to him" and Jack's first question is "Why does everyone hate you?" (and sorry, but yes, it's a stupid question, unless for some unfathomable reason Jack has been kept ignorant of the most basic facts about his father) -- anyway, not exactly the big dramatic confrontation you might anticipate.

And yes, in terms of "real life experience" Jack is not even a teenager yet -- he's not even a toddler, really. But you can't have it both ways. If Jack is still so naive and shiny-new that he doesn't even understand why he shouldn't trust Lucifer or believe a word he says, then he should not be allowed to decide whether or not he should spend time with him -- any more than a child on the playground should be allowed to decide whether or not he will accept candy from a stranger who offers to take him for a ride in his van.

25 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Way too much Lucifer. And why didn't anyone say some of the bad shit he did in front of Jack - like torture Sam or kill innocent people? I liked his talk with Gabriel though. Good stuff.

I actually liked Gabriel in that scene where he tells off Lucifer, and the bitterness and honesty of his words. But that whole conversation should have taken place in front of Jack -- why hide it from him? Why were all of them tippy-toeing their way around saying what and who Lucifer really was? It was ludicrous.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I don't know that that's true, though. Uriel also said that only angels could kill other angesl and that turned out to be patently false.  seeing as how other angel blades can be used by anyone, I've no doubt the archangel blade can also. Until I see an archangel blade fail to work by a lesser being, I'm going with that it can.

Sort of related, they also had the eyes burned out of everyone who saw angel grace. Then Dean stabbed Zachariah in his face while looking directly into his eyes and... nothing.  I had SUCH high hopes that would lead to something awesome for Dean, but nope. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

Lucifer's act is getting old.  I am tired of that character

Me too! So tired of him. Tired of his face, tired of his schtick.

Plus, he is just gross. Not in an interesting or frightening way, either -- but like the old, unshaven guy dressed like a slob, with his gut hanging out in his dirty tee shirt, that you see on the bus, and you hope that he doesn't sit next to you because you know he will strike up a conversation to complain about his life and tell you some sad story, and then ask you if you have any extra change you can give him. Now, on the other hand, if that's what the show is going for with their portrayal of Lucifer, then I guess I have to give them credit, because if so they are doing a good job!

(My personal headcanon is that Lucifer has bad teeth and really bad breath as well. I think it would be funny if when he came up to people, they all kind of leaned back when he spoke because the smell was so bad.)

Speaking of being on a bus, I think it was pretty funny that the big climactic sequence of the penultimate episode of the season for the show "Supernatural"  was ... watching a group of people climb onto a bus, watching the bus drive along (accompanied by Dramatic Music), and then watching the group of people hurriedly disembark to step through into the bunker. Boy, didn't see that coming! I mean, come on, the writers didn't even have anyone following the bus or shooting at them or anything. They could have at least added a digital countdown onscreen of the 31 hours to add some excitement.

And so much for hoping that back at the bunker, Rowena might do something dramatic or interesting or dangerous to get them all back. All she did was sit there tiredly repeating the words of her spell over and over. Oh well.

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, Bergamot said:

Speaking of being on a bus, I think it was pretty funny that the big climactic sequence of the penultimate episode of the season for the show "Supernatural"  was ... watching a group of people climb onto a bus, watching the bus drive along (accompanied by Dramatic Music), and then watching the group of people hurriedly disembark to step through into the bunker. Boy, didn't see that coming! I mean, come on, the writers didn't even have anyone following the bus or shooting at them or anything. They could have at least added a digital countdown onscreen of the 31 hours to add some excitement.

And so much for hoping that back at the bunker, Rowena might do something dramatic or interesting or dangerous to get them all back. All she did was sit there tiredly repeating the words of her spell over and over. Oh well.

LOL! IKR?! MTE.

[Pondlass1]

Gosh. This episode will be a goldmine for the gag reel.  Misha and his mouth had me literally rolling on the sofa laughing out loud and Felicia decked out in lip gloss and false eyelashes for the 'torture & Nazi' scene.  It was hilarious.  I'm sure two of them had a hard time keeping a straight face.  

The AU reminds me of a little show from  days of yore - Under the Dome.  A town of about 2,000 residents are trapped yet every episode we only see the same 15-20 townsfolk.  Reminded me of Mary and her merry band of 25 (duh!) people to be saved.  LOL! 25 people who were WAY MORE important than her own sons and her own world's problems?  

 And really? ~ Michael the archangel relies on sky bombs? Can't he just snap his fingers and people explode? His bombs kill no one.  People meandering along , standing about when the rift could zip shut any second.  Today's horror films rely on characters doing stupid things to enhance the suspense.  Unfortunately Supernatural is now borrowing from these films. Instead of a slow burn to tension like the old days.

It's all so stupid when it could be so great.  The AU was a brilliant notion - what a waste!  Angels with guns dressed like SWAT, 

I don't think the bunker and it's treasures are the answer to the AU refugees problems.  The answer Sam and his laptop.   All the answers are usually found there.  And once this merry band of 25 get their hands on  cell phones and iPads and join social media - they'll never want to go back to bombs and no shower facilities.

Please can Mary and Lucifer DIE in the finale???  And they found a pretty good actor with Alex, but then they have him mooning about .  

Sam and Dean were background pretty much.  I did like Ketch.  I hope Ketch stays around.  Redeeming a psychopath is usually not good., but in this case I'll give them a pass.

Fingers crossed for next week!!!  Dean is stepping up.  

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

I actually liked Gabriel in that scene where he tells off Lucifer, and the bitterness and honesty of his words. But that whole conversation should have taken place in front of Jack -- why hide it from him? Why were all of them tippy-toeing their way around saying what and who Lucifer really was? It was ludicrous.

Because then Jack would know that Lucifer was bad and obviously they must need that not to be for storyline.

 

57 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sort of related, they also had they eyes burned out of everyone who saw angel grace. Then Dean stabbed Zachariah in his face while looking directly into his eyes and... nothing.  I had SUCH high hopes that would lead to something awesome for Dean, but nope. 

They had eyes burned out by everyone who saw pure grace out of the body.  Not from watching an angel get stabbed, so I wouldn't necessarily call that a rules change.  It also could have just meant that vessels have a higher tolerance which would make sense since they would actually have to house the grace.

 

27 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

The AU reminds me of a little show from  days of yore - Under the Dome.  A town of about 2,000 residents are trapped yet every episode we only see the same 15-20 townsfolk. 

Now that you mention it, this show is also reminding me of Under the Dome for its ridiculous scenarios.

 

28 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

25 people who were WAY MORE important than her own sons and her own world's problems?  

Her sons and her own world aren't in any danger at the moment.  At least not that she can probably help with.  I like that she's sticking with something she started, whether or not she started it on purpose.

 

30 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I did like Ketch.  I hope Ketch stays around.  Redeeming a psychopath is usually not good., but in this case I'll give them a pass.

I like the actor, but, no, I really can't go along with redemption for him.  He was horrible.  If it were Mick, it'd be another story. He at least had a conscience.

[Pondlass1]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Her sons and her own world aren't in any danger at the moment. 

Oh well.... no need to bother with them then, I guess. :(

What an awful woman - and Mother's Day on Sunday too!!!

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Oh well.... no need to bother with them then, I guess. :(

What an awful woman - and Mother's Day on Sunday too!!!

It's not about not bothering with them.  Heck, they could have stayed with her and fought.  It's not much different than a father going off to war.  They aren't children.  They can all make their own choices.  If Mary didn't exist and Dean had been trapped in the other realm and Sam had gone in after him, Dean would have wanted to stay, too.  And, Sam most likely would have joined him.  IMO, that's the weird part in this scenario.  There are people in trouble and Sam and Dean want to go back to their own realm and leave them to their fate. Would have never happened in an earlier season.

[sarthaz]

I watched it. That's about all I can say about it. Although I'm curious to know how Lucifer can resurrect the dead and disintegrate angels with him mind, but his Kryptonite is apparently Sam giving him the Heisman?

[Aeryn13]

I thought this was another set-up filler. 

Basically their entire trip to the AU world was just a side quest to bring back Mary, Jack and 25 AU-folk. The important thing was that Sam pulled a Bonnie on Lucifer/Kai. Seriously, pretty much the same thing happened to in Vampire Diaries Season 6, portal to another world and all. And lo and behold, the "reformed" villain returned, evil again and full of vengeance. 

I just try to ignore Mary because things are better this way. 

Weird Nazi!Cas and his German accent was just such a random detour. 

Rowena didn`t do much and just was there for the end. 

Gabe died the death that was so beautiful in Season 5 but was then retconned to mean nothing. Well, now this one does mean nothing to me. 

Him and Lucifer having a talk was a good scene. Though Gabe randomely championing the beauty of humanity was a bit much for me. 

Jack and Lucifer went the predictable route. Of course Dean got played like the bad guy for arguing against Lucifer. 

Other than that, it was more or less an episode where Dean didn`t play that much of a part. 

Though in fairness, everyone took a backseat in the Lucifer-show.    

Eh, at least the episode didn`t make me as stark-raving mad as last Season`s penultimate one. I hated that one. This, I jusr rolled my eyes because so much wasted time, only to predictably leave everything for the Finale where it is gonna be rushed and nonsensical. 

Pacing, writers, look into it.

[Lemuria]

9 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

But first Dean quickly repairs a bus single handedly... but sadly not to music and he keeps his shirt on.

N-no music?  No shirtless montage?  Sacrilege!

Thanks, Castiel's Cat.

[OnceSane]

The rape debate is getting a little snippy.  Y'all have stated your opinions multiple times.  Move on.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

A person cannon consent to having sex with someone they don't know exists. 

Sorry, I osted at the same time.  Deleting.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Katy M

[Jynnan tonnix]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I did think it was possibly Russian and Misha is of Russian descent. Misha did a decent Slavic accent back 24.  Maybe Misha got it spot on and we are just confused LOL.

I'm of Polish descent, and Misha's accent sounded not unlike a lot of people I know. Maybe AU Jimmy Novak's family emigrated a generation later and English was a second language to him. Makes as much sense as anything else.

[Writing Wrongs]

13 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

Resurrected characters (some multiple times), copies of others from an alternate universe, a dozen faceless characters we're supposed to want to protect, and the only new character this season sitting in a corner moping, probably contemplating how grossly he was underused this season.

 

What is even this show anymore ?

Once Upon A Time?

[Commando Cody]

If they pick up Wayward Sisters, which doesn't really seem very likely, they could leave Mary in the Alternate Universe and she could probably come through the rift as a guest star from time to time. 

I was watching Gabriel fight with Michael while thinking, are they going to really just kill him again? Maybe he'll show up in another video. 

We all know Lucifer is a bad guy and leaving him in the other universe seemed like a good idea at the time - to Sam, It seemed like a terrible idea to me. It certainly doesn't help with his abandonment issues. He's going to be worse than ever. I don't know if Rowena bottled up any leftover grace so that they can open the rift again. If they need another Archangel, I guess they are going to have to find a way to let Michael out of the cage.  It has been reported over the years that he's off his rocker. Would he get fixed up as fast as Gabriel? Because Gabriel's return to normal was pretty miraculous. How much blood of a holy man do they need? Do they go and bleed the priest regularly for it?

When I see episodes like this one, I wonder how they got a 14th season. 

The odds seemed poor that Castiel would find the same meat suit. The Hitler hair and the German accent just seemed wrong. 

[SueB]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

I think yu made that up in your head.  I seriously don't remember that.

Lucifer said it back in "War of the Worlds".  Said the cross-over made him weaker.  Could have been a whiny excuse but it's what he said.

11 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

The odds seemed poor that Castiel would find the same meat suit. The Hitler hair and the German accent just seemed wrong. 

JIBCON is this weekend. I seriously hope SOMEONE asks about it. 

[bozodegama]

I don't know, I kinda love this.  Everyone is in one spot, Bobby, Gabriel, Charlie, Ketch etc.  I didn't even notice the writing.  I'm into this whole ensemble thing.  Bring everyone back.  My only issue was Gabriel might be dead.  They should bring au Crowley back.  Now that would be the best.  I'm looking forward to the last episode.  Whose going to die?  Sam? Dean? Bobby? Mary? Charlie?  All of them?  

[Katy M]

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

Lucifer said it back in "War of the Worlds".  Said the cross-over made him weaker.  Could have been a whiny excuse but it's what he said.

He said getting there took its toll.  I thought he meant because Michael used some of his grace for the spell.

[BabySpinach]

4 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

I don't know, I kinda love this.  Everyone is in one spot, Bobby, Gabriel, Charlie, Ketch etc.  I didn't even notice the writing.  I'm into this whole ensemble thing.  Bring everyone back.  My only issue was Gabriel might be dead.  They should bring au Crowley back.  Now that would be the best.  I'm looking forward to the last episode.  Whose going to die?  Sam? Dean? Bobby? Mary? Charlie?  All of them?  

I have to agree a bit, seeing all those people together in the bunker was weirdly gratifying. It made me think of season 1, and how it used to just be Sam, Dean, and John hunting one single demon. Things have certainly changed, for better and for worse, but I'm always a sucker for big groups of scrappy, embattered people united and having some down time for once.

[sarthaz]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Gabe died the death that was so beautiful in Season 5 but was then retconned to mean nothing. Well, now this one does mean nothing to me. 

Seriously. Let's retcon Gabriel's powerful death and Lucifer's genuine sadness at having to do it so we can give him the same speech (but not as good) and the same death (but not as meaningful)? I hate that they're dragging this out to the point where I dislike my own favorite show.

[gonzosgirrl]

It seems sometimes like Dabb is systematically trying to undo everything good that came before him and replace it with his own, weaker version. And there are a bunch of people surrounding him that are cheering him on and telling him how wonderful he is. I wonder if he has a baseball cap that says Make Supernatural Great Again.

[Jonesy]

Thought it ended up very good--give it a 8 out of 10.  The episode mixed a lot of characters well.  Like the twist of the bunch of them coming to our world--no one was speculating that beforehand.  Some hate Lucifer but Pellegrino was excellent--wouldn't go as far as TV Guide reviewer that called Lucifer the best part of the show but he's been a big plus.  Didn't like Gabriel dead.  Jack was good with being in between all these characters with opposing views.   With regards to Dabb think he's done a good job overall...even though some think him the anti-Christ--lol.

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It seems sometimes like Dabb is systematically trying to undo everything good that came before him and replace it with his own, weaker version. And there are a bunch of people surrounding him that are cheering him on and telling him how wonderful he is. I wonder if he has a baseball cap that says Make Supernatural Great Again.

That is really funny.  I was just thinking the same thing.  Dabb is deconstructing Supernatural and retelling it how it should have been told.  At least according to Dabb.  Art imitates Life. 

 

The Lamborghini never existed.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[SueB]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

He said getting there took its toll.  I thought he meant because Michael used some of his grace for the spell.

Sorry, I feel like I'm quibbling.... he said it BEFORE AUMichael took his grace.  I think AUMichael was taunting him about his strength:
 

Quote

Lucifer: Hey, hey, hey. I got an idea. Why don't you whale on Mary Winchester for a while? I'll go get a latte, okay? Or not.

Michael: Look at you. You claim to be a god in your world. Here, you're pathetic.

Lucifer: Hey, you try interdimensional travel sometime, pal. Definitely no frills. And just to be clear, I never claimed to be God. Or a god, okay? Where I come from, God is a paradox. He's everywhere, in your mind. In reality, He's nowhere. He left. I, on the other hand, am the real deal. I am everything humanity thinks I am and worse. That's who you're dealing with, pal. But, hey, congratulations to you for being king of the hill of this dead rock.

Again, just could be an excuse.  Lucifer lies like a rug.

transcript from the supernaturalwiki.com

Edited May 11, 2018 by SueB

[Icarus]

Again I seem to be out of step with most people here as I thoroughly enjoyed the episode, although there were some quite large gripes I might even think about watching this one again, something I have hardly done for the last season or two.

As with most people, WTF with the Cas doppleganger, I can only imagine that was a Director/Writer choice as Misha is a good actor and boy was that embarassing, I did squirm a bit for Misha in that scene.

I thought the Jack and his dad scenes actually were rather good – I desperately want the Lucifer (and Mary for that matter) storylines to die as soon as possible please - but I did understand why Jack wanted to speak and try and understand his father – it did seem very natural and boy did Lucifer twist everything as only an evil psychopath could, all very believable. Surely he would want to believe his “Dad” had some redeeming features. I have seen time and time again how children from split families just want their parents to be good enough so it is okay to love them.

Loved the bro hug is was one of the best! Will write more later.