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S13.E22: Exodus


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14 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

There is a lot of space between "Jack cannot talk to his father" and "We're going to let Lucifer talk and not bother to puncture any of the self-serving lies he tells him." Respecting Jack's wish to know his father does not mean allowing Lucifer's warped version of the narrative to go unchallenged.

Personally I think Dean was right that Jack should not have been allowed to listen to Lucifer, period. Mainly because Jack came across as extremely stupid in this episode. Asking Lucifer why everyone hates him so much? Seriously? In the first place, Jack certainly had enough time while in the MOL bunker to gather this information himself -- it's not like the answer was a big secret. And in the second place, does it not occur to Jack that Lucifer has reason to lie to him? Jack has been around long enough now that it makes him look like an idiot to be so credulous and naive. (His stupidity in this area is only matched of course by Mary, with her "Oh, pish! What could possibly go wrong with allowing Jack to spend time with Lucifer? Absolutely nothing to worry about!")

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1 hour ago, Katy M said:

The only way that AU Cas thing would have had any importance is if Cas killed Cas offscreen, or if there was a scuffle and we lost track of who was who and they had us wondering. But, they didn't even bother to do that. It was a waste of time.  It's like there's some sort of torture quota the show has to fill each seaso

Or if he took his grace. It surprised me that he didn't think to do that.

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1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

I wish we'd seen more of Michael this season.  He's always seemed forgettable before. I don't know why he's been ignored all this time when it's actually all about him.  And the actor is easy on the eye.  They missed an opportunity I think.

Lucifer is as annoying as ever and I burst out laughing at AU Castiel. Crikey!!!?

Hopefully because they are saving CGI budget for next week...

Edited by Castiels Cat
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4 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

(His stupidity in this area is only matched of course by Mary, with her "Oh, pish! What could possibly go wrong with allowing Jack to spend time with Lucifer? Absolutely nothing to worry about!")

Mary was, per usual, so smug and the worst during this episode. "He'll make the right decision." Right. Sure. No need to worry that it's Lucifer, a liar and the father of lies, that poor baby-Jack is talking to. And Cas dithering, "Well, that's one way to look at it" and then wandering off wasn't the best way to provide a counter-point to Lucifer's version of events. 

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22 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Jack has been around long enough now that it makes him look like an idiot to be so credulous and naive.

He’s a teenager with even less life experience than a real teenager. So no. I think he’s doing amazingly well actually. 

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1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I liked that Cas got to kill him but I didn't really see the point of it TBH. I mean other than cause they could? 

Requisite Charlie pimping.  

Ketch is a redeemed trooper.

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Tht is not enough urgggghh for that scenario.  RAmp it up 1000.

 

Either way.  Why?

 

Yes, thank goodness.  Nobody really did anything wrong, so we didn't need any hour long apologies.  

 

I've always figured Jack should be evil, so it won't bother me one bit, if he "falls under Lucifer's spell."

 

And, I loved the "oh yeah I don't really know you, sorry."  And, Charlie's look of 'what the heck, dude?"  I don't really care for Charlie all that much, but that was kind of funny.

Jack is not evil.  He has too much power, is too emotional and Lucifer plus Sam maybe lying plus AU Michael will trigger an emotional outburst.  We have seen what happens when he loses his emotions and they helpfully reminded us in the THEN.  

God directed angels to kill nephilm because they were too powerful and too unstable.  An archnephul (sp? Singular) Is moreso.  

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1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Competency aside, I'm sick to death of Dean the Mechanic. It's like yes we get it. But was there seriously NOT one person in the AU who could fix a bus? No wonder Michael is slaughtering them LOL. 

 

SAME

It needed... classic rock.... montage treatment.... no shirt.

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25 minutes ago, Ria said:

He’s a teenager with even less life experience than a real teenager. So no. I think he’s doing amazingly well actually. 

 

49 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Personally I think Dean was right that Jack should not have been allowed to listen to Lucifer, period. Mainly because Jack came across as extremely stupid in this episode. Asking Lucifer why everyone hates him so much? Seriously? In the first place, Jack certainly had enough time while in the MOL bunker to gather this information himself -- it's not like the answer was a big secret. And in the second place, does it not occur to Jack that Lucifer has reason to lie to him? Jack has been around long enough now that it makes him look like an idiot to be so credulous and naive. (His stupidity in this area is only matched of course by Mary, with her "Oh, pish! What could possibly go wrong with allowing Jack to spend time with Lucifer? Absolutely nothing to worry about!")

And these comments explain so much about this season. Jack is both not naive and naive. He's not teenager because he actually has much more knowledge than any teenager.  He's tough until he isn't. He was thrown because his "real" Dad who he didn't care about and said meant nothing to him is suddenly around . It's just all over the place and IMO inorganic writing that is all about PLOT PLOT PLOT. Like why did it send him spiraling when he was so all about Cas, Dean and Sam and then NOPE.

I really didn't get what Sam Smith was going for in her scene with Dean and Sam. She played it so weird.  And it didn't gel with what Jensen and Jared were doing IMO. 

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1 hour ago, Ria said:

What’s wrong with her choice? People choosing to stay and fight alongside their comrades instead of running home to their families is usually, and rightly, considered noble, selfless and heroic. 

This isn't a usual situation by any definition. I think it's cruel and selfish, not noble or heroic. She owes her sons more than she owes this other world. Actually though, I'd far rather she stays there (or, you know, dies in a fire) (again) rather than continue to show them just how much she doesn't want to be part of their lives. Good riddance.

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1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 

And these comments explain so much about this season. Jack is both not naive and naive. He's not teenager because he actually has much more knowledge than any teenager.  He's tough until he isn't. He was thrown because his "real" Dad who he didn't care about and said meant nothing to him is suddenly around . It's just all over the place and IMO inorganic writing that is all about PLOT PLOT PLOT. Like why did it send him spiraling when he was so all about Cas, Dean and Sam and then NOPE.

I really didn't get what Sam Smith was going for in her scene with Dean and Sam. She played it so weird.  And it didn't gel with what Jensen and Jared were doing IMO. 

You might try empathizing with the character.

The writing has consistently shown Jack as being very naive in his understanding of humans and in his interpersonal skills.  He has responded to characters who actively nurtured and parented him and he modeled himself and his actions on heroic figures from fantasy and swords and sorcery geek films and modern heroes like Sam and Dean.  Stories are how children learn right and wrong.  

He is also part human and has a yearning to know his origins and his father despite whatever he may have declared before.  Adoptive children usually do want to seek out their adoptive parents.  It is an emotional subject and emotions cloud judgement.  He changed his mind when the opportunity presented itself.

Edited by Castiels Cat
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Fighting 101:

There are two of you and one stronger opponent. Do you 

a) tag team to take him down, or

b) go at him one at a time like a couple of noobs, while the Winchesters sit and eat popcorn?

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1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

It was not Jimmy Novak. It was some German guy.

This makes no sense. All the other humans who looked like our versions were the same people (by name anyway). But the only angel in AU who looks the same as the one in our world, and just happens to have a meat suit that looks exactly like Jimmy Novak, isn't Jimmy Novak? Sure, why not.

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Just now, Castiels Cat said:

You might try empathizing with the character.

 I think it's inconsistent writing that has left Jack off screen for too much of the time for me to empathize with him.  I'm sure I suck at watching this show but I'll just keep on keeping on.

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6 minutes ago, Whodunnit said:

Fighting 101:

There are two of you and one stronger opponent. Do you 

a) tag team to take him down, or

b) go at him one at a time like a couple of noobs, while the Winchesters sit and eat popcorn?

Gabriel is a dead man walking.  He was hoping Lucifer would last longer and he could escape with the Winchesters I think.  When Luci went down he took one for them. 

Then Luci sniveled his way out of certain death the way sniveling losers do.  

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This makes no sense. All the other humans who looked like our versions were the same people (by name anyway). But the only angel in AU who looks the same as the one in our world, and just happens to have a meat suit that looks exactly like Jimmy Novak, isn't Jimmy Novak? Sure, why not.

It was Jimmie Novak but his family just immigrated. AU.  Any number of changes.  

Why is AU Michael's meatsuit African American when in our world only Raphael's we're?

It is an AU.

Why wasn't Singer Junk Ysrd in South Dakota?

Any number of little changes.

Edited by Castiels Cat
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1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This makes no sense. All the other humans who looked like our versions were the same people (by name anyway). But the only angel in AU who looks the same as the one in our world, and just happens to have a meat suit that looks exactly like Jimmy Novak, isn't Jimmy Novak? Sure, why not.

You know thinking more. I'm not sure he wasn't Jimmy Novak. Maybe Jimmy came from another country and that's how he got there. I don't remember them saying any other name. 

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4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 I think it's inconsistent writing that has left Jack off screen for too much of the time for me to empathize with him.  I'm sure I suck at watching this show but I'll just keep on keeping on.

I like Jack.  I think the writing and acting have been fine.  

He is far better than...

Charlie

Krissie

Patience 

For instance.

Kevin Tran was a hot mess... but I liked him.

1 minute ago, Whodunnit said:

Well Novac is a Slavic name, maybe it was an attempt at that accent?

Yeah... or people in Europe moved around.  He seemed to be channeling a Nazi trope.

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Just now, Whodunnit said:

Well Novac is a Slavic name, maybe it was an attempt at that accent?

I did think it was possibly Russian and Misha is of Russian descent. Misha did a decent Slavic accent back 24.  Maybe Misha got it spot on and we are just confused LOL.

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9 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

It was Jimmie Novak but his family just immigrated. AU.  Any number of changes.  

Well the post I was replying to was yours, that said it was not Jimmy Novak. So... yeah?

My first impression was Russian, given Misha's heritage.

Edited by gonzosgirrl
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5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You know thinking more. I'm not sure he wasn't Jimmy Novak. Maybe Jimmy came from another country and that's how he got there. I don't remember them saying any other name. 

Yeah... thst is what I mean... I said it badly the first time... he just either never cane to the US and was Hans Novak or he immigrated with the accent.

Admittedly it was weird. 

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2 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I like Jack.  I think the writing and acting have been fine.  

I haven't said anything about the acting. I think Alex has been good. I think the writing and pacing is not doing him any favors. 

I'll have to watch Misha's scenes again.

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18 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This isn't a usual situation by any definition. I think it's cruel and selfish, not noble or heroic. She owes her sons more than she owes this other world. Actually though, I'd far rather she stays there (or, you know, dies in a fire) (again) rather than continue to show them just how much she doesn't want to be part of their lives. Good riddance.

I truly don’t understand where you’re coming from. She doesn’t owe her sons anything. She didn’t want to abandon the fight. It’s what Sam and Dean would have done. 

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5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Well the post I was replying to was yours, that said it was not Jimmy Novak. So... yeah?

Well not our Jimmie Novak.  AU version from Germany.  Badly worded. Enough changed to have him speak German at the least.   

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I haven't said anything about the acting. I think Alex has been good. I think the writing and pacing is not doing him any favors. 

I'll have to watch Misha's scenes again.

People would complain if they spent too much time in the AU... no J2.  Their  hands are really tied on that score frankly.  

And powerful characters are problematic because of the Zeus ex machina issue.  We had so much archangel this season because of low grace.

Edited by Castiels Cat
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10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 I think it's inconsistent writing that has left Jack off screen for too much of the time for me to empathize with him.  I'm sure I suck at watching this show but I'll just keep on keeping on.

I have to agree with this. It's like they're asking us to put our emotions for a new character on haitus for several episodes, having us pause our investment, and then suddenly unpause as they pick up right where they left off. I mean... I sometimes have trouble getting back into the mood and re-invested after a block of 6 commercials. Can you imagine how I feel about a character I just met and then didn't see for weeks?

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(edited)

Upon rewatch I think he was going for a Russian or Slavic accent. The R's sounded more rolly like with Russian. Not that I am a language afficionado.

Edited by catrox14
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2 minutes ago, Ria said:

I truly don’t understand where you’re coming from. She doesn’t owe her sons anything. She didn’t want to abandon the fight. It’s what Sam and Dean would have done. 

It's okay if you don't understand. I simply don't agree.

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1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Upon rewatch I think he was going for a Russian or Slavic accent. The R's sounded more trilly like with Russian. Not that I am a language afficionado.

Given his name it seems likely.  He sure played it like a Nazi though.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Well the post I was replying to was yours, that said it was not Jimmy Novak. So... yeah?

I clarified myself later.  I put it badly.  The thing about an AU is that they can do anything they want.  No use in wasting brain cells.

Edited by Castiels Cat
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Just now, Castiels Cat said:

Given his name it seems likely.  He sure played it like a Nazi though.

I thought he played it just like a crazy torturer not necessarily a Nazi per se. I can see it evoking that imagery though.

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5 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I have to agree with this. It's like they're asking us to put our emotions for a new character on haitus for several episodes, having us pause our investment, and then suddenly unpause as they pick up right where they left off. I mean... I sometimes have trouble getting back into the mood and re-invested after a block of 6 commercials. Can you imagine how I feel about a character I just met and then didn't see for weeks?

For me if an actor sells the character I care.  If Benny walked in the door I would care. I Crowkey showed up I would care.  So yeah I felt for Jack I. This episode and I have been feeling for Mary.

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2 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

That was embarrassing. So bad I even burst out laughing at some point. This is what happens when you give BuckLeming pivotal episodes to write.

IA. It was Bad. Very Bad.

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Yeah, I was expecting her to say, when Dean asked how many she planned to bring, some obscenely big number, like 200 or hell, even just over 100. But just 25? That's literally nothing!

 

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Yeah, I was waiting for 25...hundred.

You weren't the only one.

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Okay, when I saw the preview where Mary said she could not abandon the people in the AU world because they were being slaughtered, I thought she meant the humans of that world in general. I didn't realize she meant her little band of 25 people. So sure, bring them back with you into our world -- I would have suggested that myself if I knew it was just that group she couldn't leave. It really wasn't even that difficult to do. But was that little group supposed to be the entire human population left in the AU world? Because if not, Mary was still leaving people to be slaughtered -- just not ones she had met personally. Whatever.

I never noticed it that much before, but in the last couple episodes I have been particularly unimpressed with the actress who plays Mary. There is no depth to her performance, no nuance or layers. When she smiled brightly and said, "You would really do that for them?", she might as well have been talking about including her friends in a dinner invitation. No wonder Mary comes across as so cold and shallow.

She's awful. I never realized it either because they kept it to very small doses with her character from early on.

I could only shake my head in dismay when she lectured Dean on letting Jack see Lucifer through his own eyes. This from the woman who called John a "wonderful" dad and still to this day hasn't asked her eldest son what life was like for him with dear old dad after she died.

I cannot convey how much I hated that shit in this episode. I want her to die more than ever now.

As for the rest, typical Buck Lemming drek, IMO too.

I did love Ketch appreciating Dean saving him. I have come to love those two characters when they're on-screen together. Go figure.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean did what exactly other than fix the bus and decide okay Mom and Sam are right.

Yup. MTE. And the fact that  Mom is so clueless about so much in regards to her own children makes her judgments on kids and parenting seem even more ludicrous, IMO. She never parented a teen FFS, but now after hanging with Jack for a couple of months, she's an expert on him and what he needs/wants from a father? God, I hate her.

Gabriel might be dead, but who knows, right? At least he, unlike anyone else, got to tell it like it is and was to SmugLucifer. And were we supposed to feel sorry for Lucifer because he got to show us his take on the OPT. Blech. I hope he dies in the finale, too. He obviously wants more than just his son. He still wants it all as was evidenced in that last scene of him plotting with AUMichael.

I guess both of them will be coming to our world in the finale. I really hope that Dean gets to take them both out.

I hope that the finale has more to offer this Dean fan than any of the last few have.

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I was rewatching Misha's scenes and they are much better upon rewatch.  Just like him playing Empty Cas.

It stood out to me that Cas said "I've gotten used to it" when AU Cas said "you are like me". I wonder if there are more AU Cas' and he's seen them?

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19 minutes ago, Ria said:

I truly don’t understand where you’re coming from. She doesn’t owe her sons anything. She didn’t want to abandon the fight. It’s what Sam and Dean would have done. 

The fight I've almost seen nothing of ?

 

Of course taken out of context, Mary's decision is honourable.

 

Context matters though. Mary was already a divisive character after season 12 (although maybe not on lickingSPNwritersasses.com where Dabb and co get their feedback) and they have done NOTHING to make people care about the cause. It all happened off-screen and we're supposed to be invested in this fight. Nope. That's not how it works.

Edited by BoxManLocke
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1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This isn't a usual situation by any definition. I think it's cruel and selfish, not noble or heroic. She owes her sons more than she owes this other world. Actually though, I'd far rather she stays there (or, you know, dies in a fire) (again) rather than continue to show them just how much she doesn't want to be part of their lives. Good riddance.

Now this was bad writing in my opinion.  They give her this impossible decision and force her to choose the choice no mother would choose to push the plot along.  No one woukd expect her to choose this either Because in all livelihood it means permanent exile.  And gave her no time to think either.  

This was classic LOL plotting. Courtesy of the nepotism duo. 

Dean and Sam came up with a plan and considering the resistance was in dire straits and ragtag it was good but... LOL!

What it did do was make the plotline to Dean!Michael very straight and Dean gets to save two worlds. So yeah! 

But boy did they throw Mary under the bus and boy does that have to trigger Dean's abandonment issues.

53 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Oh, and they still can't resist Mary Sueing Charlie up the wazoo, can they?  Blech again. Double Blech, tbh.

I did not mind Ketch.  He did save Dean and he was knocked and belittled a lot early in the season.  But I hate Charlie Sue.

Edited by Castiels Cat
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12 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

For me if an actor sells the character I care.  If Benny walked in the door I would care. I Crowkey showed up I would care.  So yeah I felt for Jack I. This episode and I have been feeling for Mary.

I can see that, but I think Jack is different for me because he's so... enigmatic? I guess? Like he's almost a blank template, and his character basically consists of learning about things and reacting to things. So to me it's like his personality is still kinda blank. Even moreso than Amara. I do like him and I think he has potential, but I just don't feel like I've watched his arc unfold throughout the season, because of his blankness. Instead I feel like he was there, and then he wasn't for a long time, and now he is again.

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(edited)

Oh, I almost forgot the Cas scenes-or rather, I wish I could forget them. Awful.

I did notice Dean eyeing Jack as he sat morosely in the corner after everyone was back in the bunker. If they don't have Dean talk to him next week about how complex and complicated dad issues can be, they'll get yet another F for Fail from me as far as the writing goes. That kind of  an exclusion would be ridiculous, IMO.

And AUCas  was the cameo that they were talking about?

Lame. So. Lame.

Edited by Myrelle
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15 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I did love Ketch appreciating Dean saving him. I have come to love those two characters when they're on-screen together. Go figure.

Ugh... me too. And I HATE that I feel that way. I was so pissed when they killed Mitch and kept Ketch alive. Then I was even more pissed when they brought him back. But I have to begrudgingly have to admit that I do like him and Dean together.

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Oh, one other thing I found interesting with Dean and Cas in this episode was the torture scene.  Dean just gave him the eye nod and Cas did the work. I wonder when they worked that little scenario.

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6 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

The fight I've almost seen nothing of ?

 

Of course taken out of context, Mary's decision is honourable.

 

Context matters though. Mary was already a divisive character after season 12 (although maybe not on lickingSPNwritersasses.com where Dabb and co get their feedback) and they have done NOTHING to make people care about the cause. It all happened off-screen and we're supposed to be invested in this fight. Nope. That's not how it works.

Mary was written exactly the way Sam and Dean are written. In fact she was written to fulfill many of character behaviors Sam did in seasons 1-5: she ran away from Dean, lied to Dean, betrayed Dean by working with the enemy, was possessed by a demon, became a vessel controlled by someone else and finally pushed the devil through a supernatural rift disappearing herself.

Now it was perfectly okay for Sam to take time to clear his head even though it hurt Dean and for the most part the majority of fandom does not care Sam for betraying Dean, etc.  Mary behaves exactly the same way, does not even start the Apocalypse or beat him to a pulp and she is the worst thing ever.

I like the way she is written. She had traits of both of her sons... the good and the bad.  She is flawed and heroic just like a Winchester should be.

How is she like Dean.  She sacrifices herself for her son's without a thought more than once. It took a lot of cvourage to beat up Kucifer and go through rhat rift. Who gives her credit.  She is fighting AU Michael after having been tortured by him.  Who gives her credit.  She is on record saying she worked with the BMOL and hunted day and night in the hopes that one day her s ons,would not have to hunt.  Dean has said much the same thing.  She also obviously uses manic hunting to deal with things just like Dean.

They are grown men. She had extreme culture shock.  She has a right to extreme emotions and she has a right to deal with them however she wishes.  How can you expect a woman who has been tbrough what she has been through behave like a teenaged girl or the fantasy memories of a four year old boy.

I think the writing and acting for her has been surprisingly great.

She is a Winchester.

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Oh, one other thing I found interesting with Dean and Cas in this episode was the torture scene.  Dean just gave him the eye nod and Cas did the work. I wonder when they worked that little scenario.

I thought that was weird given that  those people have bern brutalized by angels. Not good.

4 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Ugh... me too. And I HATE that I feel that way. I was so pissed when they killed Mitch and kept Ketch alive. Then I was even more pissed when they brought him back. But I have to begrudgingly have to admit that I do like him and Dean together.

I so want my buddy spin off with Dean Ketch Cas  Crowley and Benny.  

Occasionally they stop at Sam's roadhouse.

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2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh, one other thing I found interesting with Dean and Cas in this episode was the torture scene.  Dean just gave him the eye nod and Cas did the work. I wonder when they worked that little scenario.

I did like that, too and that Dean ordered Gabriel and Lucifer to guard the perimeter.

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24 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

IA. It was Bad. Very Bad.

 

You weren't the only one.

She's awful. I never realized it either because they kept it to very small doses with her character from early on.

I could only shake my head in dismay when she lectured Dean on letting Jack see Lucifer through his own eyes. This from the woman who called John a "wonderful" dad and still to this day hasn't asked her eldest son what life was like for him with dear old dad after she died.

I cannot convey how much I hated that shit in this episode. I want her to die more than ever now.

As for the rest, typical Buck Lemming drek, IMO too.

I did love Ketch appreciating Dean saving him. I have come to love those two characters when they're on-screen together. Go figure.

Yup. MTE. And the fact that  Mom is so clueless about so much in regards to her own children makes her judgments on kids and parenting seem even more ludicrous, IMO. She never parented a teen FFS, but now after hanging with Jack for a couple of months, she's an expert on him and what he needs/wants from a father? God, I hate her.

Gabriel might be dead, but who knows, right? At least he, unlike anyone else, got to tell it like it is and was to SmugLucifer. And were we supposed to feel sorry for Lucifer because he got to show us his take on the OPT. Blech. I hope he dies in the finale, too. He obviously wants more than just his son. He still wants it all as was evidenced in that last scene of him plotting with AUMichael.

I guess both of them will be coming to our world in the finale. I really hope that Dean gets to take them both out.

I hope that the finale has more to offer this Dean fan than any of the last few have.

Lucifer had tbis idea of Lucifer and Jack against the world... ruling the world.  And yes he sold out the workd for his son but he looked guilty....

Lucifer is not good.  He conceived Jack as a weapon thst he would use. He has been trying to manipulate Jack to his side.  

The thing is Lucifer has changed.  We know this because he is not killing as much.  Amael was not killed for disrespecting him.  Rowena lived.  Gabe told the truth and lived.  The latter two deserved to die for hornswaggling him. So... he has changed.   And he looked guilty... not guilty enough to not sell out the world to live but guilty that he was doing it.

I think having low grace gave him some feels and he cannot shake them.  Lucifer, Jack and Sam seem to be the side story with Jack as the powder keg being the end result.

It looks like a straight line to Dean!Michael with Dean saving two worlds.  Cliff hanger most likely with Dean!Michael enjoying a stroll and showing off his unusual sartorial  flair. 

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(edited)
16 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

It took a lot of cvourage to beat up Kucifer and go through rhat rift. Who gives her credit.  She is fighting AU Michael after having been tortured by him.  Who gives her credit.  She is on record saying she worked with the BMOL and hunted day and night in the hopes that one day her s ons,would not have to hunt.  Dean has said much the same thing.  She also obviously uses manic hunting to deal with things just like Dean.

They are grown men. She had extreme culture shock.  She has a right to extreme emotions and she has a right to deal with them however she wishes.  How can you expect a woman who has been tbrough what she has been through behave like a teenaged girl or the fantasy memories of a four year old boy.

And none of those things would have happened if she'd just stuck around and gave her sons a chance. 

And Dean never asked or even hinted that she be his fantasy mom. That is utter B.S. 

I've watched a million hours of television and I've never experienced a more completely ruined once-beloved character than Mary Winchester. It's fine if people don't agree.  I won't be swayed from my views.

Edited by gonzosgirrl
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(edited)
2 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

I can see that, but I think Jack is different for me because he's so... enigmatic? I guess? Like he's almost a blank template, and his character basically consists of learning about things and reacting to things. So to me it's like his personality is still kinda blank. Even moreso than Amara. I do like him and I think he has potential, but I just don't feel like I've watched his arc unfold throughout the season, because of his blankness. Instead I feel like he was there, and then he wasn't for a long time, and now he is again.

Well at first I thought who is this car wannabe but then it made sense because Jack imprinted on Cas in the womb and later we saw him mimic Dean.  I think the actor is attempting to play Cas with slightly more emotion.

I think he plays earnest innocence well.

Edited by Castiels Cat
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I honestly just can't bring myself to be passionate about Mary one way or the other. I don't wan her to die in a fire, I'm not rooting for her. I think it might be the actress herself, maybe? Or a combination of that and her storylines? All I know is that I expected big things for her when the writers brought her back. And for me it's just been "meh, whatevs".

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19 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Ugh... me too. And I HATE that I feel that way. I was so pissed when they killed Mitch and kept Ketch alive. Then I was even more pissed when they brought him back. But I have to begrudgingly have to admit that I do like him and Dean together.

I coukd not see how Mitch lasted that long frankly between Ketch, torture Spice and Lethal Assassin Chick he was pretty worthless.   Nice guys finish dead last in that organization.

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5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And none of those things would be happened if she just stuck around and gave her sons a chance. 

And Dean never asked or even hinted that she be his fantasy mom. That is utter B.S. 

I've watched a million hours of television and I've never experienced a more completely ruined once-beloved character than Mary Winchester. It's fine if people don't agree.  I won't be swayed from my views.

I am not saying Dean asked for that. Fans compare her to that. 

Mary saved  her son's by going after Lucifer. Are you saying she was a bad mother for doing that???

I do not understand why Sam is allowed to go off and take some time for herself and she is not.

They obviously cannot write her into every episode.  Fans would complain more about that.

And they used her character in the writing to mirror the early Apocalypse arc. They gave her Sam's storylines.  This along with the obvious reboot in the pilot onwards (Sam missing/we have work tobdo/TFB) is what clued me in to the fact we were getting another Apocalypse and Dean!Michael straight away in season 12.  

To me writing her exactly the way they wrote Sam and Dean was welcome.

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