S02.E01: Journey Into Night

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

You may have answered your own question: if a few hundred next of kin of murdered guests start screaming, “LAWSUIT!!!”, the hosts would be their best witnesses as well.  ;)

Strand: WTF happened here? I want answers!!!

Nobody said he will keep those video files around.....

[DHDancer]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Is "Stubbs Hemsworth" now a host? He looks remarkably undamaged... How did Hector survive and Armistice did not? Why is Strand executing hosts with head shots that could destroy the hard drive? They are his best witnesses...

Yeah I noticed that when Bernard was uplinking to the mesh...the tablet clearly said Stubbs and Host together at least twice. It also explained the side-eyes Bernard was giving Stubbs when they were walking around with Floki (don't know character name yet...Strand?)

[Haleth]

Yes, Strand.  But in order to keep myself from confusing him with FTWD's Strand I may continue to call him Floki. 

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, DHDancer said:

Yeah I noticed that when Bernard was uplinking to the mesh...the tablet clearly said Stubbs and Host together at least twice. It also explained the side-eyes Bernard was giving Stubbs when they were walking around with Floki (don't know character name yet...Strand?)

Wow, I totally missed that.

I picked up in 3, possibly 4 timelines, Immediate Aftermath, 11 Days Later, Delores and Benard (i believe it's Benard) and finally the future (or possibly dream world) where Delores is in modern close (quick glimpse).

With the Delores/Benard chat, I think this is very similar to the final Delores/Arnold scene in S1, where it turns out it was Delores talking/guiding herself. I think Barnard is talking to himself, or Arnold as part of his self awareness.

Maeve was my favorite last season and I think she's going to be my favorite this season.

I would like Teddy to get more storyline, I actually really enjoyed his partnership with MiB last season, because it gave us a Teddy story (within the story) that was separate from Delores.

I'm wondering if Delores is really free or just running one last Ford Story? I wonder if we're going to find out that Maeve is the only one that really is self aware?

[DarkRaichu]

12 hours ago, Ottis said:

I was a little surprised at how stupid the humans acted after the party. They couldn't seem to get their heads around the fact that the robots had rebelled and might shoot them.  I would think in a society sufficiently advanced to have these sorts of robots, there would be protocols that are common knowledge (or in-park training) for what to do if they go wonky (wonky not being defined, doesn't have to be a rebellion, could be that they just start staggering around breaking things). I think that's the result of the show trying so hard to make the investors/owners/management appear as human jerks, which also includes being stupid. Surely some of them are smarter than that, maybe even feel discomfort with what they see in the park? I'd like some nuance, please. This is the same criticism I made last season, BTW. Just because an injustice exists, all humans do not equal bad.

There were all sorts of safety features in the park that would prevent the hosts from harming those guests much less kill.  Heck since these were the big wigs from Delos, they might even have elevated privileges at the park.  The park was literally the safest place for these people.  Then they were ambushed and witnessed coworkers or even relatives massacred.  It was pretty realistic for them not to think clearly in 4-6 hours after the ambush.  

[DarkRaichu]

6 hours ago, Nashville said:

I expect because Ford programmed the park equipment to do so, as part of Ford’s extended effort to “pass” Bernard as human rather than host.  Can’t do that if the park hardware is outing Bernard at every turn.

Curious if Ford rigged the equipment or if Bernard was created with special DNA laden skin.  The secret bunker was built by Delos / Charlotte and NOT part of normal park operations.

 

3 hours ago, DHDancer said:

Yeah I noticed that when Bernard was uplinking to the mesh...the tablet clearly said Stubbs and Host together at least twice. It also explained the side-eyes Bernard was giving Stubbs when they were walking around with Floki (don't know character name yet...Strand?)

Where? In the secret bunker?  I only saw 2 pictures of bearded men beside Bernard's picture.  Stubbs is clean shaven 

[Quilt Fairy]

That truly is an epic old-school recap.  Great job!

Edited April 25, 2018 by Quilt Fairy

[The Companion]

12 hours ago, paigow said:

Strand: WTF happened here? I want answers!!!

Nobody said he will keep those video files around.....

If he viewed all the videos, it might become clear that they destroyed evidence. Right now, they can pop someone in a deposition who can honestly say: we were ordered to shoot them in the head, coincidentally where all that evidence is, for safety. The problem has overridden all safety measures and destroying the data core was the only way to stop them.

 

He also took a smaller team to see that video, didn't he? The more people who view the videos, the more potential leaks you have. 

[RedHackle]

Quote

Which leaves hanging the question of who “they” were - the guests, or the other hosts.

At least one of the dead bodies was Teddy. So not a full answer but at least a partial one.

One other question I had; I know someone smarter than I already figured out that there are two timelines, 11 days apart; however, last season Delores broke MiB's arm; at the gala, he still couldn't move it and it seemed clear there was no time for him to have sought medical attention; yet here he is not only able to use it again, but able to fight with it. Do we infer from this that he too is now a host, or is that just sloppy writing/directing? Or did I miss something from last season, like it being revealed that he is a host?

Edited April 25, 2018 by RedHackle
forgot to add question

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, RedHackle said:

One other question I had; I know someone smarter than I already figured out that there are two timelines, 11 days apart; however, last season Delores broke MiB's arm; at the gala, he still couldn't move it and it seemed clear there was no time for him to have sought medical attention; yet here he is not only able to use it again, but able to fight with it. Do we infer from this that he too is now a host, or is that just sloppy writing/directing? Or did I miss something from last season, like it being revealed that he is a host?

There are a few posts on Page 2 talking about this. Delores didn't break his arm, she dislocated hia shoulder. 

I have no idea what the limitations are for a dislocated shoulder, pervious posters says it takes a week or so to regain full use. 

I can hand wave that the adrenaline helped MiB deal with the pain.

[Sakura12]

This is tv and most of time all it takes is popping back into place and you are good to go. Just like when they always cut down the middle of the palm to get blood and still have use of that hand. When in reality that should hurt every time they move their hand and take forever to heal that way. 

[shockermolar]

On 4/23/2018 at 3:29 AM, scrb said:

Maybe if Delos and other corporations rule the world.  

Maybe they do? We know we're some time in future - the "where" we don't know exactly, right? So maybe it's possible that corporations rule the world. It's not that far fetched.

[Ottis]

On 4/24/2018 at 8:23 PM, DarkRaichu said:

There were all sorts of safety features in the park that would prevent the hosts from harming those guests much less kill.  Heck since these were the big wigs from Delos, they might even have elevated privileges at the park.  The park was literally the safest place for these people.  Then they were ambushed and witnessed coworkers or even relatives massacred.  It was pretty realistic for them not to think clearly in 4-6 hours after the ambush.  

I probably have watched too many Terminator and Bladerunner movies, and Battlestar Galactica episodes. I would never assume I am safe in a place full of intelligent robots. I don't even trust Alexa. 

More seriously, yeah, I can see that for most people. But cars also have tons of safety features, and we all feel safe in them. If the brakes fail, however, some of us know what measures to take to slow the car. And if you stay at a hotel, workers there are trained what to do if there is a fire. In this episode, no one we saw knew what to do.. I think some would, and the show is choosing not to let us see that because again, it wants us to view all humans as bad. 

[Nashville]

On 4/25/2018 at 12:26 PM, shockermolar said:

Maybe they do? We know we're some time in future - the "where" we don't know exactly, right? So maybe it's possible that corporations rule the world. It's not that far fetched.

Already been done here.  And here.  And here.  And... well, you get the idea.  ;)

[Nashville]

On 4/24/2018 at 10:36 PM, DarkRaichu said:

Curious if Ford rigged the equipment or if Bernard was created with special DNA laden skin.

Or both - the DNA-skin thingie had occurred to me as well.

 

On 4/24/2018 at 10:36 PM, DarkRaichu said:

  The secret bunker was built by Delos / Charlotte and NOT part of normal park operations.

The bunker may be camouflaged and masked from the normal park operations systems, true - but if they’re spying on Delos Main, then they’d have to be on the Delos Main network in some fashion.  And I doubt they’d have a fleet of programmers rewriting every bit of machine microcode simply to outfit a single bunker; the time and cost investments would be prohibitive.  

Besides, they’d only do that if they already suspected something was funky in the ID code to misrepresent hosts as humans - and if that were the case, I doubt Charlotte would be so quick to reveal the bunker to Bernard in the first place.

Personally, I think the passing of hosts as humans was Ford’s best-kept last secret.

Assuming, of course, Ford is actually dead - and I’m not too sure about that.

[DarkRaichu]

12 hours ago, Ottis said:

I probably have watched too many Terminator and Bladerunner movies, and Battlestar Galactica episodes. I would never assume I am safe in a place full of intelligent robots. I don't even trust Alexa. 

More seriously, yeah, I can see that for most people. But cars also have tons of safety features, and we all feel safe in them. If the brakes fail, however, some of us know what measures to take to slow the car. And if you stay at a hotel, workers there are trained what to do if there is a fire. In this episode, no one we saw knew what to do.. I think some would, and the show is choosing not to let us see that because again, it wants us to view all humans as bad. 

What would be a viable option then?  They were in a stockholder dinner, sitting in an open area, and unarmed.  Even MiB, the toughest human in attendance was unarmed.  Shortly before the massacre, Control (ie security) was in chaos thanks to Maeve and co.  Plus, the guests were outnumbered and surrounded by hosts with guns.

[Cruella]

About dead hosts: One thing is, "dead" is a relative term for hosts. You could technically take their brain out, build new dolly for it, put empty brain inside "dead" host, through the body in the water. You can have, say, dead body of Dolores and Dolores walking around in man's body, for instance. Or just make another body that looks like Dolores (or Teddy) with empty brain, put a bullet in it and it seems like you've killed them. I am not assuming anything yet) 

Trailer for season 2 made me think that modern clothing Dolores:

Spoiler

was taken on a trip by William to modern world. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Cruella

[Ottis]

14 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

What would be a viable option then?  They were in a stockholder dinner, sitting in an open area, and unarmed.  Even MiB, the toughest human in attendance was unarmed.  Shortly before the massacre, Control (ie security) was in chaos thanks to Maeve and co.  Plus, the guests were outnumbered and surrounded by hosts with guns.

During or after? During, there would be park workers nearby, not in the dinner, who would be trained what to do if a robot started going wonky (what would that be, could be anything ... dampening field, elephant gun, whatever ... that's up to the show). After, there would be places to go and techniques to use to counter dangerous robots. IRL, when we have a visiting group, the first thing we cover is how to evacuate in an emergency. Not everyone would have made it, but with that many guests running, some would. 

In any case, the main point isn't what exactly they would have done. It's that the show is choosing not to have anyone do anything because it doesn't fit the show's narrative that humans are bad. They *have* to be manipulative abusers who were celebrating their own success on the backs of suddenly sentient robots, and because they are users and nothing else, they are too stupid and unprepared to respond when the robots rebelled. 

[DarkRaichu]

5 hours ago, Ottis said:

During or after? During, there would be park workers nearby, not in the dinner, who would be trained what to do if a robot started going wonky (what would that be, could be anything ... dampening field, elephant gun, whatever ... that's up to the show). After, there would be places to go and techniques to use to counter dangerous robots. IRL, when we have a visiting group, the first thing we cover is how to evacuate in an emergency. Not everyone would have made it, but with that many guests running, some would. 

In any case, the main point isn't what exactly they would have done. It's that the show is choosing not to have anyone do anything because it doesn't fit the show's narrative that humans are bad. They *have* to be manipulative abusers who were celebrating their own success on the backs of suddenly sentient robots, and because they are users and nothing else, they are too stupid and unprepared to respond when the robots rebelled. 

They had a centralized response team, it was Control.  Control had the ability to stop/freeze all hots in an area and it also had the ability to monitor the whereabout of each host.  Pretty sure Control would have sent a team to extract those shareholders had they noticed something was off, like a big number of supposedly deactivated hosts walking to the dining area.  Unfortunately, Control was decimated by Meave & friends by the time the shareholder dinner took place.

Not to mention the hosts were not supposed to hold guns with real bullets in them.  Also the hosts were programmed to sacrifice themselves should any host try to harm the guests.

From the POV of the shareholders, the safety measures were there.  Ford removed the safety features by altering the hosts and disabling Control which allowed the massacre to happen.  Up to this point the humans never anticipated Ford to turn the hosts against them.

[FemmyV]

On 4/24/2018 at 9:13 AM, Ottis said:

There is no reason to believe that "100 percent of the humans you have encountered were trying to have sex with you or kill you."

Do we have any idea how many humans have raped Delores? Or was it maybe, just William coming in for his annual? I guess we'll have to wait until their inevitable confrontation in EP10.

And btw - which came first? Delos or Delores? Just wondering ...

Hard to believe Ford wouldn't have known about the bunker, and anyway, what was the host being printed in his old home bunker, in S01E07? Was that ever answered? I suppose that could have been a drone. Or, it could have been an all-new Ford.

[Quilt Fairy]

9 hours ago, Ottis said:

During, there would be park workers nearby, not in the dinner, who would be trained what to do if a robot started going wonky

What park workers?  Human workers? We've never seen anybody inside the park who wasn't a host or a guest unless they came from Control to fix a problem.  There's no reason to believe that there was anyone at that dinner except invited human guests, the Westworld hosts as entertainment, and the chef/bartender/waitstaff who were almost certainly all hosts.

[DarkRaichu]

22 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Do we have any idea how many humans have raped Delores? Or was it maybe, just William coming in for his annual? I guess we'll have to wait until their inevitable confrontation in EP10.

Not that I recall.  She was the "prize" in their beginner level quest but I would imagine the guests who play as good guys would not rape her at the end of the quest.  Also, since she was for the beginners, William likely would not visit her regularly once he found higher level quests.

29 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

And btw - which came first? Delos or Delores? Just wondering ...

Delos was already a thriving company by the time they purchased Ford's failing Westworld park.  Since Delores was created just a few years before Ford opened up his park, I would assume Delos was founded much earlier.   

[dgpolo]

45 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

And btw - which came first? Delos or Delores? Just wondering ...

Her name is Dolores. D O L O R E S. I know there are a lot of typos in the posts but it always bugs me when a major characters name is misspelled so consistently. And in this case the misspelling is causing conspiracy theories.

 

Quote

She was the "prize" in their beginner level quest but I would imagine the guests who play as good guys would not rape her at the end of the quest

But even then they might have bedded her with her so-called 'consent', which she now would realize was a programmed response and not her own.

Edited April 28, 2018 by dgpolo
Addition

[FemmyV]

4 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

I know there are a lot of typos in the posts but it always bugs me when a major characters name is misspelled so consistently. And in this case the misspelling is causing conspiracy theories.

Fair enough, but even with the correct spelling, I still have to wonder.

[dgpolo]

5 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Fair enough, but even with the correct spelling, I still have to wonder.

Why? Delos is Greek, Dolores is Spanish: "Origin of the name Dolores: Derived from the Spanish dolores (sorrows, aches)."

[FemmyV]

16 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

Why?

Because I can. Sorry, but you don't get a vote, lol.

[Netfoot]

49 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Do we have any idea how many humans have raped Delores?

This brings up the same philosophical question from last season:  Is it possible to rape a toaster?

Dolores is a machine, designed for a purpose, like a  toaster, a vibrator or an inflatable doll.  Rape implies being used sexually against her will.  But Dolores has no will.  Free, or otherwise. She is a machine that acts in accordance with her programming and she doesn't have to like it, because she is incapable of liking or disliking the situations she finds herself in.  She is capable of pretending to like or dislike things, but a pretense it all that it is.  Like it or not, this is the status quo vis-à-vis Dolores and all the hosts in the park.

Now. You and I know that the hosts seem to have been becoming self-ware, and developing free will.  But nobody in the park (with the probable exception of Ford) knows this.  At least, not until the slaughter at the end of S01E10.  And we don't know for sure how long the process of transformation has been going on.

In fact, we don't even know for sure if they are becoming self-aware, or whether Ford has just subtly altered their programming to pretend to be self aware.

So, is Dolores self-aware?  Does she actually have free will?  All we know for certain is that she is not a human being, in law or in fact.  Can she in fact, be raped at all?    

(I have my own beliefs on this subject, but they are by no means proven, as far as I can see.)

[FemmyV]

2 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

But Dolores has no will.  Free, or otherwise.

We prosecute people — well, we are supposed to prosecute people — for having sex with those who have no free will, ie, drunk, passed out. Also, animals.

[Head-Full-Of-Thi]

Hey people long time lurker and now I opened an account so I could talk about Westworld!

Ok so after watching the episode I have a few questions:

1. In the note that Maeve has the address says 'Park 2'. Lee looked at it and said that it's the place Maeve and her daughter used to live. That must mean that Westworld is Park 2... Then WTH is Park 1?

2. Dolores tells Teddy she can see the past, present and future. Is she taking poetic licence here or can she actually see the future? This makes me think about the movie 'The Arrival' from a year or so ago. The twist was

Spoiler

*obviously don't read the rest of the sentece if you want to watch the movie* that while humans see time as something that progresses, the aliens see it as a thing that exists in it's entirety and can see the future, not by speciel powers but just by how their culture and way of thinking developed.

Could something similar be happening with the hosts, since they experience time differently?

3. She tells Teddy "I know how the story ends. It ends with you and me". That's obviously a massive hint and an invitation for the viewrs the begin guessing how the series ends! Can it end with *a blunt theory* Teddy... Killing Dolores???

4. Young robot Ford tells William/MIB that the next level in the game is to find the door. Now this is obviously BS because there was never a game, the game of the Maze was just a way for Ford to manipulate MIB and make him get to the church to have the final confortation with Dolores that was the last kick to her consciousness. So what does Ford want William to do now? Classic Ford, controlling people even from the grave (you know, if he's dead lol)

5. Speaking of which, when Charlotte and Bernard enter the secret basement she tells him no one knows about this place, but then the DNA reader determines that he's human. That must mean that Ford knew about this place and programmed the system so it would recognize Bernard. Is it possible that Ford knew all along and *blunt theory* in fact caused the whole host rebellion just to stop then from doing what they're doing?

6. Not a question really, more of a nitpicking. If Bernard has access to his own character profile, why can't he pull a Maeve and change his own stats to give himself a better lying ability and quick decision making?

Also:

7 hours ago, FemmyV said:

We prosecute people — well, we are supposed to prosecute people — for having sex with those who have no free will, ie, drunk, passed out. Also, animals.

You're right, in fact it only counts as not rape if the person has free will and consents clearly.

[Ellaria]

10 hours ago, Netfoot said:

In fact, we don't even know for sure if they are becoming self-aware, or whether Ford has just subtly altered their programming to pretend to be self aware.

So, is Dolores self-aware?  Does she actually have free will?  All we know for certain is that she is not a human being, in law or in fact.

This is an interesting question and it makes me rethink the commonly accepted notion that the hosts are now self-aware. Are they all self-aware? It certainly doesn't appear that way. Dolores clearly has the upper hand and is murdering other hosts. What defines "self-awareness" among the hosts?

Bernard seems to be a bit confused about it all. Yes, he took a bullet in his head but he isn't fully understanding what has happened.

4 hours ago, Luka1997 said:

4. Young robot Ford tells William/MIB that the next level in the game is to find the door. Now this is obviously BS because there was never a game, the game of the Maze was just a way for Ford to manipulate MIB and make him get to the church to have the final confortation with Dolores that was the last kick to her consciousness. So what does Ford want William to do now? Classic Ford, controlling people even from the grave (you know, if he's dead lol)

5. Speaking of which, when Charlotte and Bernard enter the secret basement she tells him no one knows about this place, but then the DNA reader determines that he's human. That must mean that Ford knew about this place and programmed the system so it would recognize Bernard. Is it possible that Ford knew all along and *blunt theory* in fact caused the whole host rebellion just to stop then from doing what they're doing?

Anthony Hopkins may be done with this show but the show isn't done with Ford. I have no clue of what William/MIB's role is going forward but I suspect that his personal stake in the "game" is of utmost importance to him. He thinks that he has beaten Ford.

Technically, the DNA reader determined that Bernard had DNA. In the context of the show that we are watching, I'm not ready to say that means that he is human. Since Bernard does have DNA, I assume that it is an intentional part of his build. So, yes, Ford designed that knowing that Bernard would encounter that room.

I think that there is little that Ford didn't know or didn't plan for. 

[numbnut]

On 4/24/2018 at 1:03 PM, RedHackle said:

I'm going to be embarrassed when someone points me upthread to where this has already been asked and answered - I swear, I looked. But did anyone catch Bernard's last line? Watched it twice and still don't know if he said 'she killed them all' or 'we killed them all' or even "I killed them all" which is what I thought the first time. Anyone?

On second watch, I heard him say, "I... He killed them... all of them." I played it back a few times. He could be referring to Arnold or Ford, as in "I/Bernard" did it because "he" programmed it. I dunno, but it's def. an intriguing confession. I still don't understand the situation with the droid station, and how Charlotte knows about it but Bernard (via Ford) wouldn't. If the the Delos board can build droids that can diagnose/repair hosts, why do they need Ford's technology? And now I'm wondering if the sea of dead hosts (Teddy! No!) means that Teddy tried to stop Delores before she goes to the mainland. He seems to be the hold-out when it comes to killing humans. I def. didn't see him shooting during Delores's rifle rampage.

Edited April 28, 2018 by numbnut

[TudorQueen]

On 4/24/2018 at 7:13 AM, Ottis said:

here is no reason to believe that "100 percent of the humans you have encountered were trying to have sex with you or kill you." Humans come in many varieties, and Westworld was about fantasies. Surely there were fantasies that didn't involve killing or having sex with the hosts.

Ford did say that originally Westworld had a nearly equal number of narratives available that didn't involve violence and sexual assault, but the guests rarely chose them.

I really hope Teddy isn't gone from the show. I love James Marsden in the role and have been looking forward to seeing how his consciousness evolves.

I love Jeffrey Wright (in so very many things!) but Bernard is just so consistently humorless that it's hard to watch sometimes, even though he certainly has reason.

I can't decide of Sizemore is more cockroach or weasel. Either way, I hate to admit it, but I look forward to his continued humiliation and discomfort.

Hector's romantic outlaw programming is awesome! He and Maeve smolder together and I love it.  But where is Arsenal?

For all her alleged hardness, Maeve may be one of the most 'humane' hosts. Her release of the injured whore to 'dreamless sleep' was beautiful.

Line of the night may have been Dolores's "Why would I scare you?", delivered with that angelic smile...

[DHDancer]

2 hours ago, TudorQueen said:

Where is Arsenal?

It's Armistice and I really hope she is back -- great character!

[DarkRaichu]

5 hours ago, DHDancer said:

It's Armistice and I really hope she is back -- great character!

I like Arsenal as her nickname as she was in charge of weapons in Hector's gang :D

[bumface]

I found this episode incredibly tedious and boring, which is a shame. And SHUT UP Dolores. Jeez... 

[WatchrTina]

On 4/26/2018 at 1:58 PM, Nashville said:

Assuming, of course, Ford is actually dead - and I’m not too sure about that.

Didn't we see maggots eating his face in this episode?  That looked pretty human-dead to me.

[lucindabelle]

Do robots grow? Do robot children grow up? Worried about clementine. 

 

Im perfectly willing to believe that the hyper rich who spend their money on West world choose nasty fantasies. Sadly. Look at the rich who hunt for “fun.” 

[Nashville]

On 4/28/2018 at 5:39 PM, numbnut said:

On second watch, I heard him say, "I... He killed them... all of them." I played it back a few times. He could be referring to Arnold or Ford, as in "I/Bernard" did it because "he" programmed it. I dunno, but it's def. an intriguing confession.

Or Wyatt, for that matter.  ;)

 

On 4/28/2018 at 5:39 PM, numbnut said:

And now I'm wondering if the sea of dead hosts (Teddy! No!) means that Teddy tried to stop Delores before she goes to the mainland. He seems to be the hold-out when it comes to killing humans. I def. didn't see him shooting during Delores's rifle rampage.

Why does everybody assume the hosts were dead, just because they were bobbing motionless in the water?  I’m reminded of the Meryl Streep character line in Death Becomes Her: “Can’t no one play dead like me, Ernest!”

 

On 4/29/2018 at 11:18 PM, WatchrTina said:

Didn't we see maggots eating his face in this episode?  That looked pretty human-dead to me.

Correction: We saw maggots eating what was left of the post-exit-wound face of an old man’s body a week and a half after the shooting event took place.  

Sure it could’ve been Ford’s body, but we didn’t get a good enough look at it to positively ID the corpse as Ford’s.  Which also gives rise to the possibility the body is a ringer - another elderly human (guest? worker?) specifically shot in the same manner as Ford, and dressed in his clothes - all to advance the fiction that Ford was a casualty of the shooting.

Wouldn't surprise me too much if Ford wanted to “disappear” - in the eyes of the authorities and Delos Corp., anyways - and concocted a plan to do so along the following lines:

1. Arrange for Dolores to shoot a host-clone of Ford in front of the entire pre-carnage crowd - thus guaranteeing the ONE death any/all survivors could testify to en masse would be that of Ford.
2. After the carnage when everybody has fled, pull the host-clone Ford’s body out and substitute a Ford-resembling human body in its place, wearing Ford’s clothes and shot in the same manner as Ford.  
3. Dispose of the Ford host-clone body in whatever manner you see fit.  Me, I’d remove and burn the head, then shove the remaining host body into the nearest host “spare parts” or body bin.

Keep in mind - any witnesses and/or video captures will report “Ford” as having been shot in the back of the head with a Colt .44.  While there will be a pinkie-sized entry sound in the back of the skull, the exit wound will have probably done a passable job of removing most (if not all) of the face - so the corpse’s resemblance to Ford doesn’t have to be that close, especially when you consider the body will be predator-savaged and rotting in the sun for over a week before anybody comes a-looking. 

Besides, who’s going to be looking too closely at the ONE guy whose death is the least subject to question?  ;>

[Netfoot]

5 hours ago, Nashville said:

 Which also gives rise to the possibility the body is a ringer - another elderly human (guest? worker?) specifically shot in the same manner as Ford, and dressed in his clothes - all to advance the fiction that Ford was a casualty of the shooting.

Or a snapshot from something that happened 40 years in the past?  Because this show likes to play bullshit games with the timeline.

[AudienceofOne]

On 24/04/2018 at 12:53 AM, DarkRaichu said:

It is going to be tough to separate comment vs speculations, but here goes:

A. There seems to be at least 3 if not 4 time lines going on:
- Immediately after Ford died
- 11 days after Ford died
- Delores & Arnold/Bernard conversation
- Delores in modern clothing was out and about in a modern city.  This could be flashback from the past, some time between Ford died and Delos army came, or future (Delores said she could see future)

 

I thought the very first scene was actually the furthest ahead in the future. It was a conversation between Dolores and Bernard framed to look like the old conversations between her and Arnold but with their roles switched. He is now a host under her control and he is remembering his previous lives as if they were a dream. That is, he's remembering waking up on the beach without Dolores and the others. 

On 24/04/2018 at 9:44 PM, dr pepper said:

For that you need to switch to the british show Humans, in which robots have become so cheap that middle class families can buy them as maids and gardeners and so forth. Just beware of that rogue software upgrade that's started to give some of them free will.

Another very good show, coming at the same issues but from a different perspective. Highly recommend.

On 25/04/2018 at 12:13 AM, Ottis said:

There is no reason to believe that "100 percent of the humans you have encountered were trying to have sex with you or kill you." Humans come in many varieties, and Westworld was about fantasies. Surely there were fantasies that didn't involve killing or having sex with the hosts.  Even hosts whose roles put them into violent situations must have run across humans who didn't go along with the prewritten plots, or were in plots where they *stopped* violence. Therefore there is no reason to believe that Dolores has only seen the bad in humans.

Dolores' entire role was to be the happy rancher's daughter who yearned for freedom but ends up being brutally raped and murdered after watching the deaths of her family and gunslinger boyfriend. It doesn't matter how many random humans she met who were nice to her. If she has the memories of being brutalised to this extent, then any human is going to be seen as a potential threat. Frankly, this position is the android television equivalent of #notallmen. 

On 25/04/2018 at 2:56 AM, The Companion said:

Perhaps what I should have said is that the narratives constructed around her involve almost exclusively rape, murder or questionable romancing. From the human point of view, she is a robot. It is a video game. But from her perspective she has been forced hundreds of times to live through truly horrible scenarios for another's entertainment. She did have a nice interaction with that kid by the river, so 100% was certainly an overstatement. That being said, she doesn't get side quests and adventure by default. Instead, her world is an endless loop of violence and pain. Humans have been allowed and even encouraged to live out their baser fantasies, and even the nicest interaction has involved her being controlled by someone else. It would be asking a lot to expect her to have the perspective to see humans as anything other than abusive. I suspect she may get a broader perspective as times goes on, but her worldview is necessarily limited by her experience at the moment. Humans, to her, are alien monsters walking among them. They are bodysnatchers, shapshifters and monsters. 

Exactly. But, you know #notallhumans or whatever. 

On 28/04/2018 at 11:57 AM, FemmyV said:

Do we have any idea how many humans have raped Delores?

Raping Dolores was the point of Dolores. So I'd say hundreds. 

On 28/04/2018 at 1:16 PM, Netfoot said:

This brings up the same philosophical question from last season:  Is it possible to rape a toaster?

So, is Dolores self-aware?  Does she actually have free will?  All we know for certain is that she is not a human being, in law or in fact.  Can she in fact, be raped at all?    

Dolores was programmed to act like she was being raped and guests paid for the experience of being able to rape someone but legally she was not raped, just like your car isn't being raped if you stick your dick in the tailpipe.

But since the guests specifically paid for a rape (and got it) then, yes, from a moral perspective they were rapists. If they didn't want to rape somebody, they would have stuck to the blow up doll. They wanted to force a sobbing, frantic, terrified woman to have sex with them. They are rapists and it is rape. Morally speaking.

Now, ethically, is it acceptable to pay to rape a robot rather than rape a "real woman"? That is the question and it's one this show is asking too. I would personally argue that anybody allowed to treat female replicas in this way will treat real women in this way as well. So I have little time for this ethical argument - and, yes, I am talking about MRAs and Incels and other misoygnistic hate groups and I feel very strongly that this show is critiquing them as well. In fact, this may well be one of the most feminist shows I've ever seen and it's interesting it's from these writers whom I wouldn't have usually pegged as feminist.

The fact is, none of these arguments compare to the simple fact that Dolores believes she was raped. It's up to you whether you privilege Dolores' opinion on the matter. But since we all judge a person's personhood entirely by their behaviour, then it's Dolores' behaviour that matters. She is behaving like a person who was raped, therefore she was raped.

Edited June 17, 2018 by AudienceofOne

[Netfoot]

1 minute ago, AudienceofOne said:

But since the guests specifically paid for a rape (and got it) then, yes, from a moral perspective they were rapists. If they didn't want to rape somebody, they would have stuck to the blow up doll. They wanted to force a sobbing, frantic, terrified woman to have sex with them. They are rapists and it is rape. Morally speaking.

No, because some married couples play fantasy games from time to time, and rape fantasies are one option.  If you and your willing spouse play a rape fantasy game, does that make you a rapist and your spouse a rape victim?  Of course not.  Because for it to be genuine rape, you would have to genuinely force your attentions upon someone who genuinely objects to them. A robot built specifically for the purpose with no feelings or free will can't genuinely object.  Not even if they are expertly and subtly programmed to pretend to be a sobbing, frantic, terrified woman.  After all, your spouse in your rape-fantasy games might also pretend to be a sobbing, frantic, terrified woman...

11 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

The fact is, none of these arguments compare to the simple fact that Dolores believes she was raped. It's up to you whether you privilege Dolores' opinion on the matter.

No, the fact is, that Dolores has no mental processes at all, in the sense that we understand them.  She doesn't think, she doesn't feel, she doesn't believe anything.  She is a machine, and her actions are completely guided by the programming in her head.  She has no opinion.

[AudienceofOne]

Just now, Netfoot said:

No, because some married couples play fantasy games from time to time, and rape fantasies are one option.  If you and your willing spouse play a rape fantasy game, does that make you a rapist and your spouse a rape victim?  

The act of consenting means it's not rape by definition. So people can "pretend" all they want, if two adults consent then they've consented. Ergo it's not rape. Dolores' lack of consent was the entire point of the "game". So that example has no bearing on this issue at all.

2 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

No, the fact is, that Dolores has no mental processes at all, in the sense that we understand them.  She doesn't think, she doesn't feel, she doesn't believe anything.  She is a machine, and her actions are completely guided by the programming in her head.  She has no opinion.

I could make the same argument about you or anybody else. The personhood of others is the basis of an entire branch of philosophy for a reason. Finding reasons to discount another human's personhood is the underpinning characteristic of all human rights abuses. Which, to be clear, is the entire point of this show. Dolores looks and behaves like a person. Do we have the right to treat her like she isn't a person - is the question the show is literally asking. As I said, nobody could charge and prosecute one of the guests with rape but that is irrelevant. If you pay to rape somebody, it is rape and if we have a victim behaving like a victim, then they are a rape victim. 

[Netfoot]

21 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Finding reasons to discount another human's personhood is the underpinning characteristic of all human rights abuses.

And therein is the fallacy in your argument:  Dolores is not a human.  

[mmecorday]

I had heard a lot about this show, so when Comcast provided its customers with a free HBO weekend, I knew my weekend was shot. I enjoyed the first season immensely, but was not bowled over by the second season premiere. It seemed like "Natural Born Killers" meets "Back the the Future III." I don't buy Dolores as an avenging angel. Ed Harris continues to excel as the MIB. He's brilliant in every scene, especially where you see him go from being so confident in the game to pissing-his-pants scared when the odds turn against him.

I just hope this show doesn't become another mindless shoot 'em up like a certain show that rhymes with the Chalking Red.

[Justin Maribito]

Season 1 was way better. That's all I'm going to say.