S13.E18: Bring 'em Back Alive

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, scribe95 said:

thought Jared did well with the speech thought it made no sense. Honestly if they had reordered the speech until after Dean was back and they realized he didn't have mom and they had no way to reopen the rift it would have made so much more sens

I don't see how the "I need you" part would ever make sense for Sam to say to Gabriel. That line, aside from being lifted from a highly intense emotional scene in Goodbye Stranger between Dean and Cas that was well earned after years of build up, has no context.

Why would Sam think that "I" need you would sway Gabriel? Is there some heretofore unknown bond that Gabriel would care? 

Now, if Castiel had said that to Gabriel, it would have still rang a bit false but at least have context as brothers and a likely history that we don't yet know about.

There has been a lot of "I" from Sam in the recent episodes. As @gonzosgirrl reminded, why has Sam twice now said "I save the world' ...back in Scoobynatural. and then "I save the world" in such an impassioned way. Especially when he was speaking of family and how his family is where he was supposed to be. I mean it makes no sense and why is he excluding Dean, and Cas for that matter. Where are they going with that?  It's weird and obvious.  

Is he already writing Dean out of his life in some way?  Were they trying to invoke some thing from Mystery Spot where Sam was worried he'd have to go it alone?

Did Sam think he was going to recruit Gabriel to the fight and that Gabriel would go to the AW with them? Like why would have thought that at all? Gabriel is selfish, has always been selfish.

Gabriel already had a redemption arc. He tried to kill Lucifer. Just because he failed that doesn't alter the redemption act itself.  He  didn't need wooby status and he doesn't need a 2nd redemption arc. It's unnecessary.  And does nothing for me. 

I don't know why Dean is saying "I can't lose you again" about AW Charlie. That's not the Charlie from his world and it's not the Charlie he saw butchered. And No Buck Lemming just because you make Dean look like he's lost his damn mind by thinking she is his Charlie, that doesn't alter that you butchered Charlie in a disgusting manner and dumbed her down before doing. It's demeaning to both Dean and Charlie for Dean to have this sad notion.

[Myrelle]

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Spoiler

If and when Dean says "yes," to Michael, I think it is going to be in order to take on AU Michael. 

 

IA.

[bethy]

I have to admit that I got bored about halfway through the episode and turned it off. I am so not interested in Lucifer and Jo or, honestly Gabriel’s trauma, that the constant switching to those storylines annoyed me. 

Agree that Sam’s speech to Gabriel made no sense in terms of Sam trying to make some sort of emotional connection. 

I found Ketch’s “Good lad” to Dean while he was working on the wound oddly endearing. I totally get those who hate him and don’t want him redeemed, but for some reason I don’t fully understand, I’m rooting for him. It may help that I fast-forwarded through most of his scenes last year so I don’t remember enough to really hate him as I’m sure I should.

 I’m trying to decide whether I’ll finish up the episode at some point.

[Pondlass1]

28 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

the F-bomb was called for at the end

It's so silly that we can't say fuck on TV.  Too many F-bombs drive me nuts.  But there's a time and a place and this was one of them.

[Katy M]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why would Sam think that "I" need you would sway Gabriel? Is there some heretofore unknown bond that Gabriel would care? 

Maybe instead of watching the show, the writers have been reading "Sabriel" fanfic.

[DittyDotDot]

Felt like a pointless episode, which seems was the point so kudos to the show on that. 

But, ding dong. Asmodeus is dead. Now if someone would just dispatch the Devil... .

[Pondlass1]

The thing is - these writers write for plot not for character.  If they had to sit down and give their impressions and thoughts on the Winchester brothers I think we'd all be asking "who are they talking about?"

Dean's a bull in a china shop.  Sam gives inspirational speeches.

[catrox14]

43 minutes ago, Mulva said:

So Dean wastes the entire time he was in Alt!World chasing after Alt!Charlie, then has a hissy fit because Sam returned Gabriel's stolen grace? 

That ...is not what happened...at all.

He wasn't chasing AW Charlie for no reason just because.

They didn't cross over into the same place as before so Dean had no idea where to start. He and Ketch start walking and they see prisoners on the bridge about to be executed. They don't approach and watch the situation. Dean recognizes AW Charlie and it's at that point the guard realizes that AW Charlie is part of the resistance and they decide to take her back for interrogation. The guard literally says out loud for Dean to hear that she has seen the nephilim and Mary. Was it convenient writing that AW Charlie knew that? Absolutely. That doesn't change that Dean had a lead on Jack and Mary.  If he didn't go after her he wouldn't know their last known location according to AW Charlie is Dayton, Ohio.

And don't forget part of that 24 hours was Dean having to rest after having been shot with a poisoned bullet. 

So I'm not sure what that has to do with Dean's outburst of frustration. He wasn't just pissed at Sam and Cas, despite Sam acting like a child and cowering at his brother's anger. He was pissed about it all. Pissed at the situation. He said "Everytime WE get close, it falls apart". So he wasn't excluding himself from his frustration.

Has Sam regressed to some weird childlike state where he doesn't speak up to Dean anymore? I mean he could have just said, "Okay, Dean. I know you're angry right now, but take a moment and let's talk about this".  I see you show, trying invoke a John Winchester parallel...not gonna work just because you have Sam, and Cas, uncharacteristically cower behind him. He's not MoC!Dean guys. You can speak up to him. He's not a monster, show.   

17 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Maybe instead of watching the show, the writers have been reading "Sabriel" fanfic.

Heh. They just lifted it from Goodbye Stranger and didn't consider the context. But I would also not be surprised if Buck Lemming were trying to retroactively reframe Goodbye Stranger as being less important to Dean and Cas by using it with Sam and Gabriel who have NO relationship.

Sorry, didn't work on this Dean/Cas/Destiel shipper. 

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, bethy said:

I found Ketch’s “Good lad” to Dean while he was working on the wound oddly endearing. I totally get those who hate him and don’t want him redeemed, but for some reason I don’t fully understand, I’m rooting for him. It may help that I fast-forwarded through most of his scenes last year so I don’t remember enough to really hate him as I’m sure I should.

 I’m trying to decide whether I’ll finis

I was surprised I wasn't irritated by that line but in the context of the scene it didn't bother me that much. That actually struck me as weirdly fatherly or motherly.  I mean Dean did say "Does it look bad, Mom" when he was delirious from the poison. Maybe Ketch was trying to make him feel comforted by Mary.  I still want Dean to shoot him in the head regardless LOL

Edited April 13, 2018 by catrox14

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

"Okay, Dean. I know you're angry right now, but take a moment and let's talk about this". 

There are many, many times when it's best to say nothing.  Honestly, I think this was one of them.  Dean wouldn't have been receptive to much at that point. 

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I mean Dean did say "Does it look bad, Mom" when he was delirious from the poison.

I didn't think he was being delirious.  I thought he was being sarcastic.

[companionenvy]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Has Sam regressed to some weird childlike state where he doesn't speak up to Dean anymore? I mean he could have just said, "Okay, Dean. I know you're angry right now, but take a moment and let's talk about this

In which case he'd get blamed for trying to talk Dean out of his feelings. 

Edited April 13, 2018 by companionenvy

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

I didn't think he was being delirious.  I thought he was being sarcastic.

I totally disagree. There was no sarcasm in his voice. He was looking in massive pain, confused etc. So for me that wasn't sarcasm. I think he was delirious with pain and poison at that moment. He said it before Ketch started administering the antidote.

[Wayward Son]

Just now, companionenvy said:

In which case he'd get blamed for not allowing Dean his feelings. 

So, so true!

[SueB]

It never occurred to me it was anything but sarcasm.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

It never occurred to me it was anything but sarcasm.

Yeah, I'm going to have to watch again for clues of delirium.

[Myrelle]

Dean's is very volatile when he's truly angry and, quite frankly, I can see it as frightening to anyone.

I thought Sam's and Cas' responses were right on in this case. He needed the room and the space to rage and they knew it. I think I would have done the same.

I thought Cas' quiet positivity afterwards was a nice touch, too And what Dean needed more than anything else right then. IMO.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

In which case he'd get blamed for not allowing Dean his feelings. 

Sigh. That's not what I mean, not what I'm suggesting. I'm not saying this in a b v j way. Please don't twist what I'm saying here into something I'm not.

 

25 minutes ago, Katy M said:

There are many, many times when it's best to say nothing.  Honestly, I think this was one of them.  Dean wouldn't have been receptive to much at that point. 

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm saying that after Dean's outburst, Sam could have said what I suggested. I'm saying that instead of Buck Lemming having Sam and Cas just standing there sheepishly saying "We''ll find Gabriel" Sam, and Cas, too, could after Dean swiped stuff off the table could have spoken up as I suggested.

It wouldn't have negated Dean's feelings at all. It wouldn't be Sam saying,  "Don't be mad". It would be the opposite. It would be Sam acknowledging Dean's emotions. And then saying. let's Talk about this"  That is a win win win for both Sam and Dean and Cas. Dean can have an outburst, Sam can let it stand and then follow up. But the body language of Sam and Cas was intended to communicate that they were afraid of Dean in some way. It's terrible really for all the characters. 

But clearly the show wants to paint a narrative here that started in the last episode with a Dean/John thing and welp...there you go. It pisses me off on behalf of all three characters. 

18 minutes ago, SueB said:

It never occurred to me it was anything but sarcasm.

Weird, it never occurred to me as anything but delirium setting in. Even the camera angle on Dean's face was a little wonky and fuzzy, so that's why I think it was delirium. He said it rather softly as well and generally Dean's sarcasm is more obvious. 

I don't know why Dean would even sarcastically, invoke "Mom" with Ketch given the ickiness of that whole thing. LOL

ETA: Ketch even mentioned delirium was setting in.
 

Quote

 

Taro root, trace of arsenic basidiomycota and

Why don't you just skip the birdseed, give me the flask?

Your shortness of breath and delirium are symptoms of a poison the Men of Letters use to disable monsters in the field. - My guess is that the bounty hunter used a similar toxin to coat his bullets to hobble his prey at first.

What do you mean, at first? 

Well, if -- if the antidote isn't administered, then the victim dies a particularly gruesome death.

Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e18

 

 

But we can agree to disagree.

Edited April 13, 2018 by catrox14

[SueB]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

Dean's is very volatile when he's truly angry and, quite frankly, I can see it as frightening to anyone.

I thought Sam's and Cas' responses were right on in this case. He needed the room and the space to rage and they knew it. I think I would have done the same.

I thought Cas' quiet positivity afterwards was a nice touch, too And what Dean needed more than anything else right then. IMO.

ITA.  The relationship between the 3 is very open and honest IMO.  Even if they fail to communicate sometimes, they know each other's heart. Sam looks like he feels like he failed Dean.  And Dean's broken "Sa-m?" just etched that guilt into Sam's psyche for the next 1000 years.  But logically, it's a no-brainer.  If they hadn't given Gabriel his grace, they both would have died.  And I think Dean knows that already -- which is why he didn't say "why would you do that?"   Dean plays the cards he's dealt and he realizes he's got a super shitty hand. 

And he's rethinking EVERY decision from the moment they showed up in the bunker and Ketch was there.  As hard as Dean tries to control the universe and protect his loved ones, it just falls apart.  His burst of frustration is completely reasonable -- but I think it was more than just the current circumstances.  He can't ever seem to get an actual functioning family safe and together for more than 30 seconds.  I still contend he left in a rush precisely to take all the risk on himself and go get the rest of his family (Mary and Jack) home.  Instead he found it too hard to do in one go and things went pear-shaped while he was gone.  And Sam and Cas know logically he's frustrated at the situation but no one wants to dissappoint Dean. He loves them all so fiercely, and they feel the same in kind.  So while Sam and Cas are equally upset at them essentially being back to "we need an Archangel's grace" and they were likely hoping Dean would be able to bring back Mary & Jack, Dean's despair is the virtual salt in the wound.  I AM worried Sam will spiral further inward.  But they'll recover.  They always do.  It's not a contest, but I'm not sure who is in the worse emotional spot right now; Sam, Dean, or Cas?  

[sarthaz]

For a Douchey Duo episode, this didn't completely suck, but I need it explained to me how Gabriel Prime could be alive without God knowing about it.

Sam's speech was shit writing.

[MysteryGuest]

I took Dean's mom comment as just his referring to Ketch as a mother hen type.  I agree he was in pain, but I don't think he was delirious at all, just resigned to the fact that he couldn't continue on without help.

There was an awful lot that happened in a span of a few minutes between when Asmodeus got into the bunker and Dean returned.  Sam and Cas were almost killed, and then had just failed at convincing Gabriel to remain and help them out, so they were suffering from their own disappointment.  Then Dean comes back, and they realize that he doesn't have Mary and Jack with him, so more disappointment gets tacked on.  I didn't really feel that anyone was kowtowing to anyone, I think they were all just reeling from being hopeful one minute and then having that hope completely dashed the next.   

[Aeryn13]

Nothing really happened here beyond Col. Sanders being killed. Which, hooray, one less pointless side character.

Gabriel`s rather beautiful ending in Season 5 is revealed to be a joke. And then he was nearly catatonic. Sam gives him a speech that doesn`t really make a lot of sense in context. "I need you"? Gabe gets back to himself at the mention of porn stars. All that work that I thought Changing Channels of all episodes did to make him less shallow and give him more emotional depth? Gone, in the blink of a Bucklemming keystroke. 

So he is kinda back to strength again and bounces. Well, we just learned he never stepped up in the first place so hardly a surprise. 

I did like him frying the Colonel, as mentioned. 

Up in heaven, big surprise, Lucifer was lying about his abilities. I`m shocked, I tell you, shocked. The angels may roll their eyes at him but still let him sit on the throne and do his bidding on, well, nothing. Not even a display of the power he promised them to show his word was worth it. Another shocker. They did the same thing in Season 11. 

Ketch staying over there to finish out his redemption arc? Eh, at this point, I mellowed out on the character so why not. 

Charlie was my most recent number one guess of character to be brought back in AU-world. So, go me. 

The problem is that this entire trip to AU world seems to have just been a side show. Last week I wondered what narrative purpose it was gonna have. Well, now I know the answer: none. And the action was, well, okay.  

I thought Dean was just in general being angry with the situation. After he yelled at Sam and Cas, he did the typical TV-showing of "character looks chagrined at their outburst at people around them". And then he yelled at basically the room. They did play Sam and Cas as a bit too much of "scared kids" in response. 

I am happy that Dean by going through the rift didn`t cause something cataclsymic to happen. Michael`s invasion plans are still at the same stage they were before. And there was no real "lesson"-giving. To which: another little hooray. 

Certainly have seen much, much worse Bucklemmings overall.  

[MysteryGuest]

Well, while their rescue mission may have failed, at least they know that Mary and Jack are no longer in the clutches of Michael, being tortured.  It's small comfort, I'm sure, but it's something.  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

how Gabriel Prime could be alive without God knowing about it.

Yes! This is a great point. Didn't Chuck even say in s11 that they wouldn't be able to rebuild Gabriel fast enough because it had to be at a primordial level? So Chuck believed he was dead. WOOOOOW. 

JFC Singer et al just shred whatever they want whenever they want. And sadly, I'll still come back because of Dean. Sigh.

[Myrelle]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I am happy that Dean by going through the rift didn`t cause something cataclsymic to happen. Michael`s invasion plans are still at the same stage they were before. And there was no real "lesson"-giving. To which: another little hooray. 

Certainly have seen much, much worse Bucklemmings overall.  

IA with this and the Dean/Ketch scenes were so enjoyable to me.  The snowy AU was made even more beautiful because of their presence. ;-)

1 hour ago, bethy said:

I found Ketch’s “Good lad” to Dean while he was working on the wound oddly endearing. I totally get those who hate him and don’t want him redeemed, but for some reason I don’t fully understand, I’m rooting for him.

Same.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Myrelle

[Casseiopeia]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Michael`s invasion plans are still at the same stage they were before

So why doesn't Michael just use his own grace to open the rift?  Archangel grace seems to be in plentiful supply and can regenerate quickly.  Problem solved!  Let the invasion begin.  Although if the person/being needs to have visited the world they are trying to get to I'm not sure how Michael is going to get to RW.  Brain twister? Plot hole?

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

So why doesn't Michael just use his own grace to open the rift?  Archangel grace seems to be in plentiful supply and can regenerate quickly.  Problem solved!  Let the invasion begin.  Although if the person/being needs to have visited the world they are trying to get to I'm not sure how Michael is going to get to RW.  Brain twister? Plot hole?

I'm thinking maybe there is some cosmic rule that that he can't get out of his world with his own grace. Maybe that's  why he could use Lucifer's once he realized he was from our world.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So why doesn't Michael just use his own grace to open the rift?  Archangel grace seems to be in plentiful supply and can regenerate quickly.  Problem solved!  Let the invasion begin. 

I don`t know. Maybe since AU-world is really ruled by angels in military gear going "in the name of Michael" and "crimes against Michael" and "archangel Michael" every other word, he wants to live up to this godlike image at all times and always, always be at top strength? Undoubtedly he killed all his archangelic brethren so he is at the top of the food chain. If he is ruling through fear and the other angels detected even a momentary weakness through loss of grace, they might descend like jackals.   

[Katy M]

52 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

t wouldn't have negated Dean's feelings at all. It wouldn't be Sam saying,  "Don't be mad". It would be the opposite. It would be Sam acknowledging Dean's emotions. And then saying. let's Talk about this"  That is a win win win for both Sam and Dean and Cas. Dean can have an outburst, Sam can let it stand and then follow up. But the body language of Sam and Cas was intended to communicate that they were afraid of Dean in some way. It's terrible really for all the characters. 

I'm not talking about negating anyone's feelings.  I am just saying that sometimes silence is what a person needs.  They don't need to be validated.  They don't need to be soothed.  They just need silence.

[Bergamot]

25 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I took Dean's mom comment as just his referring to Ketch as a mother hen type.  I agree he was in pain, but I don't think he was delirious at all, just resigned to the fact that he couldn't continue on without help.

There was an awful lot that happened in a span of a few minutes between when Asmodeus got into the bunker and Dean returned.  Sam and Cas were almost killed, and then had just failed at convincing Gabriel to remain and help them out, so they were suffering from their own disappointment.  Then Dean comes back, and they realize that he doesn't have Mary and Jack with him, so more disappointment gets tacked on.  I didn't really feel that anyone was kowtowing to anyone, I think they were all just reeling from being hopeful one minute and then having that hope completely dashed the next.   

I agree with all of this. It never crossed my mind for an instant to think that Sam and Cas were scared of Dean; obviously they were upset themselves, and hated having to give him some really bad news, as anyone would be. I saw them as afraid for Dean when he exploded, not afraid of him.

It was a very emotional scene for everyone. I felt bad for Sam, asking excitedly about Mary and Jack; he was really hoping Dean would return with them. (Poor guy does not know that there are too many episodes left in the season for that to happen now!) And I felt bad for Dean, having to explain what happened.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm not talking about negating anyone's feelings.  I am just saying that sometimes silence is what a person needs.  They don't need to be validated.  They don't need to be soothed.  They just need silence.

Sorry I was answering both you and companionenvy. I wasnt intending to conflate  your point  with theirs.Apologirs.

 

I agree that silence is often best in a moment. And Sam did that and then he spoke. and I would have preferred it be him saying "okay Dean. you have a right to be angry and now that it's out of your system. We're frustrated and angry too so let'ss find Gabriel' instead of the sheepish  way it was handled. Cas seemed sheepish but confused,like he was studying Dean.

I wonder  maybe Sam thinks he will lose Dean.

I also would have liked some follow up on  Dean saying he should have just stayed if he knew they couldn't open the Rift again. That was a pretty heavy reveal.

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I also would have liked some follow up on  Dean saying he should have just stayed if he knew they couldn't open the Rift again. That was a pretty heavy reveal.

Well, maybe we will.  You wouldn't want that to be rushed in 3 seconds.  It kind of reminds me at the end of Family Feud, when there was an outcry that there was no discussion of Mary's being in the BMOL, just for it to happen in the next epi.  Sometimes we just have to have patience. The alternative is a rushed ending nobody is happy with.

[AwesomO4000]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I wonder  maybe Sam thinks he will lose Dean.

I also would have liked some follow up on  Dean saying he should have just stayed if he knew they couldn't open the Rift again. That was a pretty heavy reveal.

And Dean's reveal might also not have done well for Sam's thought process if he was worried that he might lose Dean, because Dean seemingly confirmed that if he'd known the rift couldn't open again, he would have stayed, and Sam would seemingly have lost him (since they no longer had Gabriel's grace for Sam to try to retrieve him.) So Sam's fear of that would have some merit. And considering Sam is now playing the not hopeful "I can't do this without you" part, I can imagine that that thought would be scary for him.

[Bobcatkitten]

I thought the last scene was effective. Yes, if I was in the room and someone was frustrated and throwing stuff I would flinch. But not because they are in danger. It was just pent up emotion being let out. And I thought Cas and Sam handled it well. Let Dean get it out. Then regroup. Honestly, I don't understand why they gave Gabriel the grace. It completely went against the plan with no explanation given. Other than they needed Gabriel at full strength to kill Asmodeus later.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, scribe95 said:

Honestly, I don't understand why they gave Gabriel the grace. It completely went against the plan with no explanation given.

I figured they gave it back because it was his grace.  It wasn't theirs to keep just because they need it.

[MysteryGuest]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I figured they gave it back because it was his grace.  It wasn't theirs to keep just because they need it.

Right.  It was his grace, and he was obviously suffering without it.  My guess is both Cas and Sam felt they'd be able to reason with Gabriel, if he were actually to recover.  I think his walking away surprised them both.  

[ukgirl71]

Thanks for putting that end clip up - I knew what was coming and I still jumped!  Blimey Jensen Ackles, but you are GOOOODDD!!

[DittyDotDot]

52 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

Honestly, I don't understand why they gave Gabriel the grace. It completely went against the plan with no explanation given.

I thought the explanation was they were hoping he could power up and heal himself if he had more power? 

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

There has been a lot of "I" from Sam in the recent episodes. As @gonzosgirrl reminded, why has Sam twice now said "I save the world' ...back in Scoobynatural. and then "I save the world" in such an impassioned way. Especially when he was speaking of family and how his family is where he was supposed to be. I mean it makes no sense and why is he excluding Dean, and Cas for that matter. Where are they going with that?  It's weird and obvious.  

Is he already writing Dean out of his life in some way?  Were they trying to invoke some thing from Mystery Spot where Sam was worried he'd have to go it alone?

 

And then there was Gabriel's "I bet on you". Not you and your brother, not the Winchesters, not even lumbering piles of denim (oh Crowley, how I miss you). Not even an afterthought, as when God said Dean.... and Sam were the firewalls. Just 'you'. Crappy writing? Or anvilicious crappy writing?

I do think though that both Sam and Cas truly, if foolishly, believed that Gabriel would help them once he was healed, so giving him back his grace was zero-sum. I wonder if they'll address what would've happened if Dean didn't make it back through in time - did they actually think that far ahead? Like Dean charging through the rift right fucking now-if-not-sooner, maybe they could've waited the 24 hours (which was probably far less than that before Cas made it to the bunker after Dean left), before healing Gabriel. Either way though, giving him back his grace was the right thing.

One thing I'm curious about. How did the MoL-kindasortalegacies in last week's episode get their hands on Archangel grace?

[Castiels Cat]

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And then there was Gabriel's "I bet on you". Not you and your brother, not the Winchesters, not even lumbering piles of denim (oh Crowley, how I miss you). Not even an afterthought, as when God said Dean.... and Sam were the firewalls. Just 'you'. Crappy writing? Or anvilicious crappy writing?

I do think though that both Sam and Cas truly, if foolishly, believed that Gabriel would help them once he was healed, so giving him back his grace was zero-sum. I wonder if they'll address what would've happened if Dean didn't make it back through in time - did they actually think that far ahead? Like Dean charging through the rift right fucking now-if-not-sooner, maybe they could've waited the 24 hours (which was probably far less than that before Cas made it to the bunker after Dean left), before healing Gabriel. Either way though, giving him back his grace was the right thing.

One thing I'm curious about. How did the MoL-kindasortalegacies in last week's episode get their hands on Archangel grace?

When Dean makes those speeches he always says we saved the world doesn't he.  Even though he literally did save the world in 11 and he literaslky did save the world by showing up at Stull at changing Chuck's story (per Chuck).

This is Sam's hubris. He needs to be the chosen one. Ironically Dean is the De facto chosen one whom God listens to and answers, who God let's change his story, who God's sister lustens,to and rewards.  Who woukd not fall in love with that face...

And we ask outselves,why Sam has,a,stick uo his ass...

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And then there was Gabriel's "I bet on you". Not you and your brother, not the Winchesters, not even lumbering piles of denim (oh Crowley, how I miss you). Not even an afterthought, as when God said Dean.... and Sam were the firewalls. Just 'you'. Crappy writing? Or anvilicious crappy writing?

I do think though that both Sam and Cas truly, if foolishly, believed that Gabriel would help them once he was healed, so giving him back his grace was zero-sum. I wonder if they'll address what would've happened if Dean didn't make it back through in time - did they actually think that far ahead? Like Dean charging through the rift right fucking now-if-not-sooner, maybe they could've waited the 24 hours (which was probably far less than that before Cas made it to the bunker after Dean left), before healing Gabriel. Either way though, giving him back his grace was the right thing.

One thing I'm curious about. How did the MoL-kindasortalegacies in last week's episode get their hands on Archangel grace?

Humor aside they have finally sold me on why Sam hunts which is good.  It took them 13 years.

[Casseiopeia]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm thinking maybe there is some cosmic rule that that he can't get out of his world with his own grace. Maybe that's  why he could use Lucifer's once he realized he was from our world.

I'll buy that.

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t know. Maybe since AU-world is really ruled by angels in military gear going "in the name of Michael" and "crimes against Michael" and "archangel Michael" every other word, he wants to live up to this godlike image at all times and always, always be at top strength? Undoubtedly he killed all his archangelic brethren so he is at the top of the food chain. If he is ruling through fear and the other angels detected even a momentary weakness through loss of grace, they might descend like jackals.   

Mob bosses don't give up power easily.

[Katy M]

37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And then there was Gabriel's "I bet on you". Not you and your brother, not the Winchesters, not even lumbering piles of denim (oh Crowley, how I miss you).

I honestly thought he meant the plural you. 

[Aeryn13]

I think he meant just Sam in that regard and normally I`d consider it a gigantic anvil but I`m trying to be more neutral this time. 

What bugged me the most in this episode was that during that "I need you, Gabriel" speech, they played Dean`s theme. Yes, I know it`s called the "Winchester family theme" but it used to play during emotional Dean scenes in regards to his family in early Seasons. Then it wasn`t used for years and now they drag it out for something like Gabriel`s little "woe is me" moment and Sam speechifying to him. 

It`s a lovely little score that brings back some fond memories even for me and I just want them to keep it out of now!Supernatural. IMO it has no place there anymore.     

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Felt like a pointless episode, which seems was the point so kudos to the show on that. 

But, ding dong. Asmodeus is dead. Now if someone would just dispatch the Devil... .

That is on the books for sure... 

My prediction is rhat we are heading for a Mexican quid pro quo.  Dean needs archangel grace and access to Michael in the cage.  Rowena wants Lucifer Dead.  Dean will offer himself as vessel in exchange for grace, killing AU Michael and Lucifer.

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see how the "I need you" part would ever make sense for Sam to say to Gabriel. That line, aside from being lifted from a highly intense emotional scene in Goodbye Stranger between Dean and Cas that was well earned after years of build up, has no context.

Why would Sam think that "I" need you would sway Gabriel? Is there some heretofore unknown bond that Gabriel would care? 

Now, if Castiel had said that to Gabriel, it would have still rang a bit false but at least have context as brothers and a likely history that we don't yet know about.

There has been a lot of "I" from Sam in the recent episodes. As @gonzosgirrl reminded, why has Sam twice now said "I save the world' ...back in Scoobynatural. and then "I save the world" in such an impassioned way. Especially when he was speaking of family and how his family is where he was supposed to be. I mean it makes no sense and why is he excluding Dean, and Cas for that matter. Where are they going with that?  It's weird and obvious.  

Is he already writing Dean out of his life in some way?  Were they trying to invoke some thing from Mystery Spot where Sam was worried he'd have to go it alone?

Did Sam think he was going to recruit Gabriel to the fight and that Gabriel would go to the AW with them? Like why would have thought that at all? Gabriel is selfish, has always been selfish.

Gabriel already had a redemption arc. He tried to kill Lucifer. Just because he failed that doesn't alter the redemption act itself.  He  didn't need wooby status and he doesn't need a 2nd redemption arc. It's unnecessary.  And does nothing for me. 

I don't know why Dean is saying "I can't lose you again" about AW Charlie. That's not the Charlie from his world and it's not the Charlie he saw butchered. And No Buck Lemming just because you make Dean look like he's lost his damn mind by thinking she is his Charlie, that doesn't alter that you butchered Charlie in a disgusting manner and dumbed her down before doing. It's demeaning to both Dean and Charlie for Dean to have this sad notion.

The Charlie/ Dean thing shows Dean's unstable mental state and his fear about losing Mary. He is absolutely primed to do something off the rails reckless to save her, like going off alone to say yes to Michael to get archangel grace 

[catrox14]

I've been hard on this episode and other than the end scene I have not much I like about it.

That said, this part did please me.

Ketch:  "Bring back Sam, and your angel, and Gabriel and the bloody Navy SEALs and whatever else you can get."

Ketch gets it. Hee.

Edited April 13, 2018 by catrox14

[FlickChick]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think he meant just Sam in that regard and normally I`d consider it a gigantic anvil but I`m trying to be more neutral this time. 

What bugged me the most in this episode was that during that "I need you, Gabriel" speech, they played Dean`s theme. Yes, I know it`s called the "Winchester family theme" but it used to play during emotional Dean scenes in regards to his family in early Seasons. Then it wasn`t used for years and now they drag it out for something like Gabriel`s little "woe is me" moment and Sam speechifying to him. 

It`s a lovely little score that brings back some fond memories even for me and I just want them to keep it out of now!Supernatural. IMO it has no place there anymore.     

You beat me to the punch! That's really adding insult to injury. In a speech by Sam saying "I" instead of including his brother in reference to saving the world, they play that theme - the one used for interactions among family members (especially Dean and others). Man, that pissed me off! Gabriel isn't family. PERIOD. Never was. And IMO Sam shouldn't be rewarded for taking all the credit for saving the world with a background theme expressing caring/loving/devotion to FAMILY.

ETA: I've come to the conclusion that BuckLemming are absolutely, positively, obnoxiously tone deaf when it comes to these characters that they are supposedly writing about.

Edited April 13, 2018 by FlickChick

[devlin]

You have to admit that it is impressive how willing Sam is to form relationships with people who have either threatened dean with harm, have tried to kill him or in gabe’s case have killed him many times, but I guess Sam has also tried to kill his brother so maybe it is a bonding experience.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

What bugged me the most in this episode was that during that "I need you, Gabriel" speech, they played Dean`s theme. Yes, I know it`s called the "Winchester family theme" but it used to play during emotional Dean scenes in regards to his family in early Seasons. Then it wasn`t used for years and now they drag it out for something like Gabriel`s little "woe is me" moment and Sam speechifying to him

I had the same reaction. And it is known as Dean's Family Theme. I downloaded the sheet music myself and that's the title. So, yes, it's always been used for Dean and his interactions. That pissed me off as well. Use it for Dean, Sam and Cas, I have no issue. Using it for Gabriel and Sam?? Hell no. I'm 100% wiht you on that annoyance.

[bearcatfan]

Maybe, just maybe, Sam said "I" because his whole speech was to try to draw a parallel between himself and Gabriel with the whole not feeling like a part of his family and then realizing that his family needed him. So he said "I" because of that reason and not to slight Dean.