S06.E04: Mr. And Mrs. Teacup

[BetyBee]

I care about Henry.  He is the innocent Jennings.  What happens to him as the series unfolds, will be the most tragic, imo.  Perhaps he represents all of the lives the Jennings have ruined or ended.  He's a good kid, a smart kid and he is an American kid.  It's the former Soviet Union that is about to end, but everything he thought was real is also about to end.  I find his story very compelling  

[Erin9]

9 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

And very capitalist (says someone who's been laid off a time or two because a company got too big for its britches).

I interpreted that entire scene differently than most, it seems. And I'm no Paige fan. I saw her doing what her mother told her - going out because she wanted to go out with the guy. And when looking at the badge at the end of the scene, I thought she looked like she was having second thoughts about the spy business, because it will always infect her relationships in the future and she'll never be able to be "real" with anyone. On the one hand, Mommy's approval, on the other hand, a life of lies. And whatever else she may be, Paige hasn't really been that fond of lies.

That could have been it. It’s hard to know for sure what she was thinking. Maybe that’s the point. Lol Maybe she doesn’t know either. She likes him, yet sees him as a potential asset. 

Confusion does seem likely. It could be this helps her realize spying isn’t for her. 

I figured Paige had gotten over her issues with lying since she’s chosen to become a spy.

[Ina123]

21 hours ago, Bannon said:

Besides, it would be much, much, worse for the Soviet image in the world for them to whack a star hockey player and his wife, than to have him badmouthing the Soviet system. It's not as if he is some high level KGB defector, who can do real intelligence damage.

When Martina Navratilova defected from Communist Czechoslovakia in 1975 it was a huge embarrassment to them. I remember watching her news conference and thinking "Wow! This is big." I was 24 and a political junkie so I noticed. But the funny thing was young people everywhere were excited and talking about it. Friends who I thought didn't give a fig about politics were talking about it. As I think back, I see now that we had all been through the Cuban Missile Crisis so we thought it was "kickass". Plus, pro tennis was in a heyday of it's own with Chris Evert and Jimmy Connors. It was a BIG deal.

So, yes. They don't want that national hockey player becoming a propaganda tool.

[SusanSunflower]

I always assumed most Soviet and Cuban defections, rather than being "political" or about "freedom", were obviously in search of big bucks that capitalism promised ... not a particularly flattering or noble motivation. 

[SunnyBeBe]

There are some interesting impressions about what Paige was contemplating as she was lying in bed next to her new lover, looking over at his ID badge.  I got the impression that she was feeling pretty good about herself the previous night, looking good, feeling confident,  enjoyed herself, and then the next day saw the badge and thought it was just too irresistible to not use the opportunity, if intel were available to her.  Girls don't always follow mother's advice.  And what interest would it be if she did?  For purposes of the show's finale season anyway. 

[Ina123]

21 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Paige reminds me of the old joke when I was in high school about refusing to take typing because you'd never be relieved of secretarial duties ... 

LOL. My mom and dad preached the "don't take typing or bookkeeping to me" way back in my junior high days. Typing jobs were so easy to get that pushy parents were afraid we would use it as a fallback position. In high school I was struggling to find an elective that would interest me so I did succumb to bookkeeping because at least I could enjoy the math. (Yes, I'm a female that does math.) By then I knew I was shooting for an engineering college so I didn't see it hurting me. 

Almost all my female friends married and got part time jobs (secretaries/receptionists/retail/beauticians) or stayed single and got secretary/receptionist/retail/beautician jobs. Some of us went to college and became teachers, chemists, etc. My best friend of 60 years, who I still see almost weekly wound up at the CIA in DC. To this day she has never told me what she did. But, yeah, in those days if you took typing it was a way into those jobs and a good typist was always in demand. I'm not knocking it. It's all in what we want. I'll soon be 67 and I'm old enough to know...do what makes you happy. That is so important.

Of all my friends and acquaintances in high school I was the only female (that I know of) to go into engineering. Not long after I graduated more opportunities and doors opened to females that had been maybe not closed, but not realistic before. An age of enlightenment, so to speak.

For female college material at that time, Paige is so dumb.

[BingeyKohan]

27 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

When Martina Navratilova defected from Communist Czechoslovakia in 1975 it was a huge embarrassment to them. I remember watching her news conference and thinking "Wow! This is big." I was 24 and a political junkie so I noticed. But the funny thing was young people everywhere were excited and talking about it. Friends who I thought didn't give a fig about politics were talking about it. As I think back, I see now that we had all been through the Cuban Missile Crisis so we thought it was "kickass". Plus, pro tennis was in a heyday of it's own with Chris Evert and Jimmy Connors. It was a BIG deal.

So, yes. They don't want that national hockey player becoming a propaganda tool.

I'm glad you framed it out in this way because to me the Gennadi-could-wind-up-in-Time-magazine thing seemed less like a real concern someone like Claudia would have and more like narrative contrivance to place Stan and Elizabeth on a collision course. Preventing him from becoming a Martina Navratilova, though, doesn't seem worth killing him and his (estranged) wife over, which seems to be where Elizabeth's head is at these days.

Spoiler

I still want to know who is the 'goldmine' of detail on the illegals Aderholt refers to in the season trailers, since we know it can't be Gennadi.

[SailorGirl]

On 4/19/2018 at 9:39 AM, RedHawk said:

 

My closed captioning reads: “...put pressure on the city to revoke the club’s license. Once a mainstay of DC nightlife...” 

I’m thinking they intentionally don’t mention one specific club but are alluding the Go-Go clubs and the violence of the era. The clubs always seemed to be getting shut down (temporarily at least) because of people getting shot inside or in the vicinity. Here’s a story from November 1988, one year later in The Americans’ timeline. Marty's Chapter II and Ibex in particular are mentioned here. The Ibex finally closed for good in 1999, I think. And interestingly, the owner of Marty's is named Chernoff... 

SailorGirl, can I claim my TroubleFunk CD? Although you can just copy me an old skool cassette. 

Thanks for letting me know what they said. The cassette is on its way! :-D  

[qtpye]

18 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I don't agree with the NYT ("politically correct") theory that we disapprove of Elizabeth as ruthless killer somehow more because she's a woman, however Elizabeth as a "bad mother" is in stiff competition as a co-equal sin wrt Paige and Henry (and bad wife/partner or partner/wife with Phillip) ... she is failing in all realms which should be painful to watch but verges on being a matter of "bad karma" or getting too attenuated in pursuit of an ideological cause sacrificing all of "what really matters", i.e.,   the bluebird-of-happiness in your own backyard homilies...    Perhaps we are too sympathetic to a working woman's divided attentions that we take less joy in her falling apart than we may have in watching Tony Soprano burn every bridge.  Pride goeth before the fall and Elizabeth is having her prideful face rubbed in the dirt ...  takes a licking and keeps on ticking ...    (Are we really supposed to ignore the absurdities in the plot when they so abruptly pull us out of the story?   Is Washington so crime-ridden and regular Americans so callused that these deaths pass unremarked upon, instantly forgotten?  That an elite private school will simply send a scholarship student down because of his parent's temporary financial difficulty?  Which version of affluent white America in 1987 is this?)  

I've always been impressed by the Jennings' standard of living from that stand-in small-business travel agency.  That house and that development are fairly new and fairly luxurious (Americans used to not expect McMansions on most people's salaries) , plus new cars and Elizabeth's home wardrobe .... raising "cash flow problems" raises lots of questions (even if unexplained disproportionate affluence is all too normal wrt "normal people" in the media) ("Friends" is usually cited in this regard)

 

18 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think this is a problem that sometimes happens when you have non-traditional female characters, too, because on the one hand men are more often allowed to do these things, but at the same time male characters seem better able to weather the criticism. Walter White was not some universally celebrated badass. He was criticized plenty for being selfish, being a bad husband and father by people who cared about that stuff. One could argue that Elizabeth as a woman is more expected to be a better parent, but even that doesn't change the fact that the criticism is logical--and also Elizabeth is absolutely presented as a better parent than WW. 

Basically, you can't have a character that's all about putting this kind of ideology and job above all else, explicitly worrying that she'll be too distracted by a husband and kids, and then also call foul when the character's criticized for putting their ideology above their husband and kids. Her strengths are her flaws. She can't be both extremes at once. 

I'm wary of them too, but I didn't say "I bet the writers wanted us to think Y" at all in this case. I was describing what was actually on the screen and saying the set up vs. the chaos inside was funny. I wasn't suggesting the writers were not aware of that contrast. The only thing I was laughing at was a) how it seemed like it was actually pretty easy to break in and b) how much of a menace Elizabeth has become. Seven bodies in four weeks! Obviously the writers intentionally wrote Elizabeth as failing to do anything but kill a lot of people however badass she looks in her outfit. To me it was funny, especially because she herself has become so humorless and serious.

The only place I actually do wonder if I'm seeing X when the writers are writing Y is where I'm reacting to stuff that they're actually saying. That kind of thing you can't tell until the show's over and until then I think it's perfectly smart to be prepared for things to not go the way they seem to be going. 

Yeah, even Stan referred to the "General who killed himself in the park" as if that's what the paper said. Who else is thinking this is a suicide?

 

17 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Actually the "thing" that's bugging me about "bad mommy Elizabeth" is how the writers are really pounding us over the head with it ....  and creating this utter grand-canyon of a divide between P&E, who have been married forever and have weathered "bad times" without (until this last episode somewhat) anyone losing their temper and saying "talk to me damn it!!!"  I've imagined that Henry returning home would be aghast at Elizabeth's burnt out appearance (Is she dying?) and Paige really should have expressed some concern (she doesn't have to "nurse" her mother but general "concern" about someone you love is not out of line) ... It feels like anvils and quite unfair to Elizabeth who we have seen has been primary caretaker, chief cook and bottlewasher to that household for a long time in addition to her laundry room and nocturnal adventures.  She's veering into dangerous stereotype (career before family) territory when this is actually a recent development (not so true 3 years ago) and possibly a quite recent (the Summit) (situational)? 

 

17 hours ago, Bannon said:

It's just the all too typical hallmark of lazy writing in movies and television; mega-violence stripped of likely consequences. I wanted more from this show when I started watching it years ago. I've kept watching, largely for some terrific actors, but that hallmark continues to irritate me, or increasingly, it makes me laugh.

 

17 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think the columnist simply asked the question, if you read the article, he puts it in context.

Also, this would be about an American CIA agent not a mob member, or Rambo.

The second part of it was about the male/female part of things.  Right now, everyone loves and roots for Philip, and dislikes Elizabeth.

So, reverse that.  They are CIA.  If the woman gave up on the USA, and not longer helped her partner, and indeed decided the USSR was the better option, and put her male partner in danger by having him have to do all the missions alone?  If the MALE partner was loyal to the USA and fighting the good fight to keep nukes and other dangerous weapons from Soviet Hands, while the female CIA agent went line dancing and refused to help her country at all...

WOULD the feelings be different.  He's not telling anyone how to feel, he's asking the question, and I think it's a good one.  It's about spies, it's about gender, it's about loyalty to your country, it's about doing your job.  Switch the countries, switch the genders, but keep them as spies.  Would you feel the same way?  Not you personally, the general you. (me, all of us)

 

17 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

My impression is that the KGB "allowed" Philip to semi-retire because they knew that Elizabeth alone would be in dangerous territory (see William) whether he was dead or "in Russia" and they wanted/needed to keep alive the idea that "retiring" was possible ... y'know, like Gabriel, like Claudia who goes back to Russian (in disgrace) and returns ...   If not for "being there to support Elizabeth,"  I think Philip would be dead and will be disposed of if she dies.  

It was several seasons ago that I considered (and rejected) either Elizabeth or Phillip getting promoted to being a "handler" in the event they chose to opt-out,   Elizabeth is too competitive and Phillip too conflicted and empathetic (at that time)   Neither has been in a position to develop useful "institution knowledge" (history, relationships, careers trajectories, etc.)   They are operational agents. 

I'm not looking at Phillip as someone who "let Elizabeth down" but someone who stood by her, even when he would have preferred to "got back to Russia" (or other alternative).   I also suspect Philip has some awareness of how expendable he really is. 

This season hit the ground running with this ice cavern between them I also.  Not seeing the last 3 years does not mean that the last 3 years have been "just like this" ...  as I said in my last post.  I assume the Summit and now the "special assignment" has tipped things to extreme burnout.  I also think the writers are pushing us to see Elizabeth as potentially latently suicidal.  Is she really?  I'm feeling sheepdogged by the writing to consider Elizabeth as "hopeless"even "terminal". 

 

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, she is very good, and she's been doing the job for a very long time.  Philip was very, very good too.  It's a very difficult posting, away from home, friends, family, adjusting to a completely new world.  In the first episode of the series we hear Claudia tell them "things are going to get much harder now" and more ramped up, so perhaps it didn't used to be quite this hectic for either of them.

I agree, and that's probably why Philip has to sleep with her now, more reason for Kimmie to come home on the weekends.  She will be in love.

I agree with all of this.

I think the FBI, military, and local police being stretched very thin trying to follow all of the Russians and Summit activity, along with the DC being known for murders could, logically, be the reason the General's suicide wasn't investigated more thoroughly. 

It's REALLY getting old having Elizabeth killing so many people.  I have to think that will be part of her downfall here.

That's my biggest issue with Paige, and one the time jump doesn't cover at all.  WHY would an American girl be willing to commit treason?  For the USSR?  In WHAT reality?  That's the cheat of the time jump I just can't accept, and they could at least do small scenes explaining that one.

Because it's fucking HUGE.

Also, the disappearing and reappearing extra garage doors bug the shit out of me.  They actually live in a Tri Plex, that whole house isn't theirs.  I think this show was on a strict budget in the beginning, and they just picked a house the show could afford.  The floor plan doesn't jive either.

The house has been jarring for me from the beginning.  For example, when someone pulls in the driveway blocking the other two garage doors, it ALWAYS takes me out of the moment.  "Park somewhere else!  Your Tri-Plex neighbors won't be able to get in or out of their garages!"

Exactly.

Also, while I agree it's time for some follow up in several ways, Paige reading the papers, the stretched thin law enforcement putting the obvious similarities together about the deaths?

I kind of think we are about to see all of that happen.

 

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Paige looked very pretty in the bar scenes.  Honestly it's the first time I've noticed that, she seemed relaxed and beautifully young and fresh. 

I agree with others that seeing that guy's badge was disturbing her, it's like it brought everything into focus for her, about what she's doing with her life now.  I don't think she seduced him as a mark, I think she liked him.  Then she sees the badge, and that possibility came back in a rush, or that goal, and she REALLY DIDN'T LIKE it.   (Also, holy cow!  That was legitimate acting on her part, and she did it well!)

Interesting, maybe Paige will try to bail, that would be unexpected.

Another thing that stood out to me was Elizabeth starting to relate to the art, could Elizabeth, at long last, be seeing glimpses of another side of her that she's ignored since she was recruited into the KGB and became all business all the time? 

To someone's comment earlier about Oleg's dad maybe playing both sides here, lying to Arkady?  I really don't think so at all, I had the opposite impression.  His only goal is obviously to keep Oleg safe, so even IF he disagrees with the task, he would never do anything to jeopardize his only living son.  He knows that giving up Arkady would not save Oleg, at all.  I think he's upset that they are in this position, but he will stay true to Oleg here, no matter what he might think.

My problem with the NYT article is that it puts the blame of Elizabeth's gender playing into perceptions on the viewers and not on the writers. At the beginning of the show, she was a much more nuanced and interesting character. However, the writers have always been willing to sacrifice her in order to make Phillip look nobler by comparison.

In the first episode, E's rape becomes about Phillip. I hate this trope, it is not about the woman's emotional trauma, but the man avenging the woman as her knight in shining armor. The show was much better written then but Phillip has always been noble, self-sacrificing. and madly in love with Elizabeth. It is implied that P would have defected a long time ago if not for the love of this woman.

On the other hand, E has been getting less complex to the point of where she might as well be a murderous version of mail robot.  We see her putting her daughter in horrible danger, blindly being a pawn for people who do not give a shit about her (here is a cyanide pill for all your years of hard work and sacrifice) and lovingly recalling a romanticized version of the Soviet Union that never existed. Add on top of that she is brutally murdering anyone who is in her way. There is no way the writers want us to see her as anything but one note.

I have always been a giant fan of Kerri Russell. She is a great actress and I actually hate the way they have shortchanged her. Any nuance or interest you have in Elizabeth comes from her acting, not the stupid writing. Notice the different more innocent tone of voice she takes on when she is playing the nurse. It is subtle but very effective. Compare this to the actress who plays Paige, who has one expression, sweet doe-eyed innocent imbecile. I actually enjoyed the scenes of her on a date, because it is the first time in many seasons she looked fresh and was acting naturally.

The woman who plays the sick lady is always doing an amazing job. The tortured dying artist can be such a tedious and thankless role but the actress is really giving the character layers and I love the way she perturbs her fake nurse.

I have a different theory to why E is not interested in the art lessons. She has accepted that she is going to die soon and has no fucks to give. E is going to die as a martyr to the cause and it will be her greatest achievement. This might seem crazy but think about how religions celebrate their martyrs. Getting fed to the lions or being burned at the stake rather than denying your faith was the ultimate level of greatness. I remember learning about these saints as a child and wishing that I could be just as brave. E is ready for death so in all honesty, everything in this life, which includes Phillip, no longer matter.

[dubbel zout]

18 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I always assumed most Soviet and Cuban defections, rather than being "political" or about "freedom", were obviously in search of big bucks that capitalism promised ... not a particularly flattering or noble motivation. 

Can you blame them? Life was pretty circumscribed even for the people who were allowed to travel outside the USSR. The KGB was constantly watching every move you made.

Was anyone who tried allowed to defect? Let's say I, dubbel zout, average Soviet citizen, somehow managed to make it outside the Iron Curtain and present myself to a foreign embassy. Would it accept me as a defector? Or would I need to be famous like Navratilova or Mikhail Baryshnikov or a scientist/someone with specialized skill and/or knowledge?

[SusanSunflower]

Huh? I just didn't see them as heroes or exemplars of freedom seekers ... also relevant, I don't recall any bloody bodies or mysterious deaths amongst celebrity defectors (maybe I've forgotten them). I do recall enormous American press coverage as if the defection of these superstars somehow proved the failings of communism and the righteousness of the Cold War ... Quick, you check under the bed, I'll check the closet.  

eta:  My recollection is that most celebrity asylum seekers had enormous support in defecting often from wealthy and/or influential people ... some disappeared solo from airports and train stations with the shirt on their back, but atheletes were often aided by folks eager to manage them or leagues eager to sign them. 

eta: The tales of derring-do, evading the minders and the leap to freedom were suspenseful and the stuff of spy novels ...  I do recall some fraught stories of defections of spies (that went awry).  How the soviet people would react to finding out about the Teacups working relationship with the FBI, I'm not sure. 

Edited April 20, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Clanstarling]

On 4/19/2018 at 5:33 AM, RedHawk said:

Yes, all the warehouse scenes were clear enough, for me at least, in HD. 

It wasn't with our 4K HD tv. We turned the brighteness way up and even turned off the lights. (then of course, when we got into a regular scene, we rushed to do the opposite - because blinding glare!)

On 4/19/2018 at 6:29 AM, BingeyKohan said:

Totally. Last episode we had Elizabeth scrubbing blood off herself in a hazy, scuffed mirror - this episode, another failed mission but a clear mirror for Elizabeth to look in. Hopefully that means she’s beginning to see herself more clearly?

She was scrubbing blood off this episode too - the artist's blood.

On 4/19/2018 at 6:52 AM, ChromaKelly said:

"Hi Mr. Beeman! What are you doing here? Hey Mom look, Mr. Beeman's in the car we're following!" 

I sort of think Paige will come into play when Stan finds out who they are.

On 4/19/2018 at 7:08 AM, RedHawk said:

Did anyone else yell “Stav!” when Stavos popped his head into Phillip’s office to tell him about the call from Henry? No? Just me?

Stavos’ line dancing skills have improved and he seems to be enjoying himself now. Not as much as Phillip. Nobody in that bar was having as good a time as Phillip.

 

Nope, not just you. :)

23 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Gee, it would be nice if we could see some flashbacks to Philip's life where we saw him learning to do this.

 

I know. I was saying to the mister that I wish we could find out more about Philip's life before the end of the show, but I doubt we will.

21 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I actually thought of line dancing as more of an early 90s thing than a late 80s thing, but I could be wrong.

I remember line dancing when I started going out with the mister, and that was in the mid-80's.

17 hours ago, Bannon said:

Dead bodies get attention, period, and the idea that any investigator with a pulse could not see within a short amount of time that it was not a suicide stretches credibility to the breaking point. This is before we get to Paige not mentioning the warehouse murders in the news, in the kitchen conversation.

My take was that they'd just returned from the warehouse operation - so there would have been no time for Paige to hear the news. But I agree totally with the other point.

17 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Man, the vomit scene was pretty over the top.  I had to turn my head and I haven't done that through any of the brutal murders.  Even when they folded the girl up in the suitcase.  

Naw, had to turn my head with the suitcase operation - and wished I'd turned off the sound.

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I admit sometimes showing it is dramatically effective, though. In this case I can understand why they might have thought it was important to show just how humiliated and vulnerable this woman was thanks in no small part to Elizabeth's trying to get to that party. Elizabeth who is not actually a nurse at all and probably had no idea this might happen.

I hate vomit scenes, but agree that in this case it was effective - particularly since she was vomiting blood, at least by the end of it.

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I figured Paige had gotten over her issues with lying since she’s chosen to become a spy.

Lying to strangers and marks, yeah, she's probably fine with that. But I think she may be realizing that if she follows this life, she'll have to lie to everyone - that any chance of a normal romantic relationship, a normal friendship, or even a normal working relationship, will be off the books for her.

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

LOL. My mom and dad preached the "don't take typing or bookkeeping to me" way back in my junior high days. Typing jobs were so easy to get that pushy parents were afraid we would use it as a fallback position. In high school I was struggling to find an elective that would interest me so I did succumb to bookkeeping because at least I could enjoy the math. (Yes, I'm a female that does math.) By then I knew I was shooting for an engineering college so I didn't see it hurting me.

I took typing, because I knew I was going to be a lit major and would be typing papers. But I didn't take shorthand, which was big in the day, so that I wouldn't go the "easy" route to being a secretary. Which I didn't, worked in tech for most of my adult life (and still do). Though ten years ago I helped out a friend by replacing his secretary for a while - and was totally humbled by how hard the job really was.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

 

My take was that they'd just returned from the warehouse operation - so there would have been no time for Paige to hear the news. 

Yeah, you are right. I guess what bugged me was that the slaughter took place early in the episode, days passed during the episode, and we still have nothing which indicates that Paige must now know that her mother murders people, or her reaction to that knowledge. Nor do we have indication of any realistic response by the FBI and wider law enforcement to the now certain knowledge of an ongoing murder spree with a national security origin, which would be huge. Instead, we have Claudia and Elizabeth chit chatting about tracking down and killing a couple of fairly trivial defectors in the D.C. area, in a residence provided by the FBI , when the D.C. area should be just swarming with law enforcement, with past composite sketches of our killin' couple, from previous operations. Like I said elsewhere, it is just lazily written t.v. mega-violence, divorced from any realistic portrayal of the outcome of violence. I really hate writing like that. A few scenes of Liz looking haggard isn't good enough.

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My problem with the NYT article is that it puts the blame of Elizabeth's gender playing into perceptions on the viewers and not on the writers. At the beginning of the show, she was a much more nuanced and interesting character. However, the writers have always been willing to sacrifice her in order to make Phillip look nobler by comparison.

In the first episode, E's rape becomes about Phillip. I hate this trope, it is not about the woman's emotional trauma, but the man avenging the woman as her knight in shining armor. The show was much better written then but Phillip has always been noble, self-sacrificing. and madly in love with Elizabeth. It is implied that P would have defected a long time ago if not for the love of this woman.

On the other hand, E has been getting less complex to the point of where she might as well be a murderous version of mail robot.  We see her putting her daughter in horrible danger, blindly being a pawn for people who do not give a shit about her (here is a cyanide pill for all your years of hard work and sacrifice) and lovingly recalling a romanticized version of the Soviet Union that never existed. Add on top of that she is brutally murdering anyone who is in her way. There is no way the writers want us to see her as anything but one note.

I have always been a giant fan of Kerri Russell. She is a great actress and I actually hate the way they have shortchanged her. Any nuance or interest you have in Elizabeth comes from her acting, not the stupid writing. Notice the different more innocent tone of voice she takes on when she is playing the nurse. It is subtle but very effective. Compare this to the actress who plays Paige, who has one expression, sweet doe-eyed innocent imbecile. I actually enjoyed the scenes of her on a date, because it is the first time in many seasons she looked fresh and was acting naturally.

The woman who plays the sick lady is always doing an amazing job. The tortured dying artist can be such a tedious and thankless role but the actress is really giving the character layers and I love the way she perturbs her fake nurse.

I have a different theory to why E is not interested in the art lessons. She has accepted that she is going to die soon and has no fucks to give. E is going to die as a martyr to the cause and it will be her greatest achievement. This might seem crazy but think about how religions celebrate their martyrs. Getting fed to the lions or being burned at the stake rather than denying your faith was the ultimate level of greatness. I remember learning about these saints as a child and wishing that I could be just as brave. E is ready for death so in all honesty, everything in this life, which includes Phillip, no longer matter.

I could not agree more with regard to how Russell has made the most with the bad hand dealt to her by the writers.

[Dev F]

5 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

My take was that they'd just returned from the warehouse operation - so there would have been no time for Paige to hear the news. But I agree totally with the other point.

Yeah, the warehouse operation, Philip's meeting with Kimmy, and the family get-together at the Jennings home all took place the same night. We do see Paige doing surveillance later in the episode, so presumably she didn't immediately read about Liz's warehouse killing in the paper and get freaked out, but I don't find that all that implausible, since I don't necessarily think several guards killed in a warehouse burglary would've been urgent front-page news. (Especially if the warehouse was in the suburbs; at the time the Washington Post was notorious for undercovering suburban news. One of my mom's favorite stories is the time she was complaining to her friends, "Hagerstown could blow up and the Post wouldn't cover it!" Not long after there was some sort of explosion in Hagerstown and the Post put it on the front page as if to prove her wrong.)

One thing I think helps make sense of things is that we know much more than the media would about these cases, since the fact that they involved top-secret matters of national security would have itself been a secret. The initial story, especially, isn't going to be "Murder and attempted theft of top-secret military equipment!" It's just going to be "Guards killed in abortive warehouse robbery." Similarly, Rennhult's "suicide" is less immediately suspicious if you only know that he's an Air Force general, not one of the key players in SDI.

And, yeah, that's partially a dodge. But I'm fine if it's a dodge designed to hold off on the next step in the "radiation sensor" story until the next episode, because this has always been a show where thematic coherence is more important than immediately lining up every logistical detail. If we never get any follow-up suggesting that Liz's warehouse killing spree has raised suspicions, then I'll agree that it's a significant problem.

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, Ina123 said:

When Martina Navratilova defected from Communist Czechoslovakia in 1975 it was a huge embarrassment to them. I remember watching her news conference and thinking "Wow! This is big." I was 24 and a political junkie so I noticed. But the funny thing was young people everywhere were excited and talking about it. Friends who I thought didn't give a fig about politics were talking about it. As I think back, I see now that we had all been through the Cuban Missile Crisis so we thought it was "kickass". Plus, pro tennis was in a heyday of it's own with Chris Evert and Jimmy Connors. It was a BIG deal.

So, yes. They don't want that national hockey player becoming a propaganda tool.

And the KGB/communists never once considered assasinating a defecting famous athlete, because that would have worse propaganda grist, by a wide margin.

[AAEBoiler]

Well they didn't wait til the end of this episode for Elizabeth to tally some kills ... and she put 3 down this week. That makes 6 over 4 episodes this season. She's on a torrid pace!

[Bannon]

16 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Yeah, the warehouse operation, Philip's meeting with Kimmy, and the family get-together at the Jennings home all took place the same night. We do see Paige doing surveillance later in the episode, so presumably she didn't immediately read about Liz's warehouse killing in the paper and get freaked out, but I don't find that all that implausible, since I don't necessarily think several guards killed in a warehouse burglary would've been urgent front-page news. (Especially if the warehouse was in the suburbs; at the time the Washington Post was notorious for undercovering suburban news. One of my mom's favorite stories is the time she was complaining to her friends, "Hagerstown could blow up and the Post wouldn't cover it!" Not long after there was some sort of explosion in Hagerstown and the Post put it on the front page as if to prove her wrong.)

One thing I think helps make sense of things is that we know much more than the media would about these cases, since the fact that they involved top-secret matters of national security would have itself been a secret. The initial story, especially, isn't going to be "Murder and attempted theft of top-secret military equipment!" It's just going to be "Guards killed in abortive warehouse robbery." Similarly, Rennhult's "suicide" is less immediately suspicious if you only know that he's an Air Force general, not one of the key players in SDI.

And, yeah, that's partially a dodge. But I'm fine if it's a dodge designed to hold off on the next step in the "radiation sensor" story until the next episode, because this has always been a show where thematic coherence is more important than immediately lining up every logistical detail. If we never get any follow-up suggesting that Liz's warehouse killing spree has raised suspicions, then I'll agree that it's a significant problem.

If they have E, or worse yet, E and Paige, going out on their kill mission, on Mr. and Mrs. Hockey player, in the midst of what should be the FBI response to the murder spree, they may as well have The Fonz jumping sharks in the Potomoc.

[margol29]

I might be in the minority but, this season is lacking. For this to be the last season I would expect MORE from each episode. They seem to be wasting time on the small stuff. Phillip's money issues. Henry's boarding school. Wasted scenes shot in the DARK where you can't see what is going on. Unless it pays off in the end game. I want something to happen with Phillips son from USSR. They spent so much time last season on that and there was no payoff.

They should be grooming Henry for his part as a spy. He is old enough.

This season has no excitement, no suspense. There is nothing to leave you hanging and impatiently waiting for the next episode. I sure hope that this all pays off in the end.

AND I WANT SOME MARTHA!! She could be really unhappy with life in Moscow. Somehow she escapes back to the US and turns herself in and dishes all.

[Cthulhudrew]

4 hours ago, JFParnell said:

Yes! So I'm not alone in thinking it's gotten out of hand. It seems like growing up what you mostly saw, if they showed anything, was someone's backside hunched over and convulsing. Now you get the whole thing face-forward in HD. You know how episodes begin with the warnings: Violence, Language, Nudity, etc.? They should institute a new caution: "P" Puking.

For a really good example of how the times have changed visual depictions of violence, compare season 10 of the X-Files with pretty much the entire original run. It's like night and day with the contrast between implied and explicit violence/horror.

[Bannon]

4 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I always assumed most Soviet and Cuban defections, rather than being "political" or about "freedom", were obviously in search of big bucks that capitalism promised ... not a particularly flattering or noble motivation. 

Thousands of Cuban defectors drowned in the attempt. Most of them did not risk, and lose, their lives, in search of "big bucks". 

1 hour ago, Cthulhudrew said:

For a really good example of how the times have changed visual depictions of violence, compare season 10 of the X-Files with pretty much the entire original run. It's like night and day with the contrast between implied and explicit violence/horror.

I actually prefer that violence be shown in its explicit ugliness. What I hate is when the portrayal of the consequences of violence are not given explicit treatment. I really appreciated that Martha's horror, when she realized her role in Gene's murder, was given a full treatment.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Bannon

[SusanSunflower]

sorry, I was thinking of high publicity baseball defectors ....  not your average on-the-bad-side-of-the-party Cuban wash-ashore (who got little publicity, but I think did often get protections most "illegal entrants" did not) 

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

It feels like Henry already has more storyline this season than he did when he was living in the house and actually performing on the same sets with the rest of the cast.

I don't think it's a feeling. This is literally the first season they've decided to give Henry an ongoing relationship with a parent. Usually at most he'd have a scene pop up somewhere or something going on in an episode. Even last year where he had an actual story it was going on off-screen. His stuff with Stan, too, was little scenes here and there.

13 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I interpreted that entire scene differently than most, it seems. And I'm no Paige fan. I saw her doing what her mother told her - going out because she wanted to go out with the guy. And when looking at the badge at the end of the scene, I thought she looked like she was having second thoughts about the spy business, because it will always infect her relationships in the future and she'll never be able to be "real" with anyone. On the one hand, Mommy's approval, on the other hand, a life of lies. And whatever else she may be, Paige hasn't really been that fond of lies.

I can see that reading, but then I remember that Paige was the one who brought up the intern in the first place as a job. Not that I think this means she seduced him as a job. I think it's more that she can't keep the two separate. For instance, she herself feels the need to talk about the cute guy she met as being an intern to begin with, as if giving herself a Legitimate Reason for being interested in him. Then, when she starts to tell her mom about going out with kids in her sociology class that's like a normal person talking about their life--but she's talking to her mother so naturally it has to come back to spying. (As Philip points out with disgust.) The entire conversation then becomes about Paige mixing the two. Elizabeth is claiming it's a bad idea, but it's impossible to not know that she's proud of Paige for her initiative as a spy, not as a girl who might have met a cute guy.

So Paige goes out with the guy and has fun, then she looks at the badge. Is it making her think about spying in general and the fact that she can't have any relationships? It could be, but given that Paige herself was the one who decided that intern=potential source, I think she's gone back to the thing that's really important in her life. That is, imo, the badge isn't just a symbol of things she can't tell, it's a symbol of what she should really be focused on/what she really wants. (Despite the fact that he's not a valuable source outside of her imagination.) So it's both. The separation is there--we saw her moaning about that last season. Her whole relationship with Matthew was about her realizing she couldn't have real relationships. But her solution to that was to embrace The Mission completely, so it would make sense she'd do that here. Philip and Paige were both having fun as a knowingly brief respite from their real life.

I predict that whatever her warnings (probably somewhat inspired by Philip's open disapproval) this episode, Elizabeth will soon start also talking about Paige's sex life in a way that relates to spying. That would push Elizabeth further along the path she's going now where she's ready to pimp out anyone and everything in pursuit of her immediate goal.

4 hours ago, BetyBee said:

I care about Henry.  He is the innocent Jennings.  What happens to him as the series unfolds, will be the most tragic, imo.  Perhaps he represents all of the lives the Jennings have ruined or ended.  He's a good kid, a smart kid and he is an American kid.  It's the former Soviet Union that is about to end, but everything he thought was real is also about to end.  I find his story very compelling  

Me too. Though for me I don't much think of him is innocent. I mean, he is, but I don't think that makes him better than them all. I just think it's interesting watching him having a real relationship with his father without knowing the truth and I'd love to see him be able to find out and have some interactions with him after that. Because for Paige, it was all about the secret. She was very much a kid interrogating her parents as parents about their secret life. But Henry's in an almost more interesting situation at this point because he's a bit older and more mature and we see him "knowing" his father pretty well in some ways. Does that all go away if he finds out about all the lies? Or could he integrate the two almost the opposite way that Paige does, integrating the spy stuff into the person he knows instead of the domestic person being absorbed by the spy one, if that makes sense.

3 hours ago, Ina123 said:

So, yes. They don't want that national hockey player becoming a propaganda tool.

Surely he'd be an even bigger one if they murder him for defecting. (Though I'm not sure this guy is supposed to be on the level of stardom that everyone would be talking about it. He seems like he's just a guy on their hockey team. Good for propaganda, but not a naturally big deal to the US public.)

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

However, the writers have always been willing to sacrifice her in order to make Phillip look nobler by comparison.

I really don't think that's true at all. But answering in the Elizabeth thread because it's mostly about her.

 

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

is ready for death so in all honesty, everything in this life, which includes Phillip, no longer matter.

Exactly. She chose death and he chose life. But neither of their choices truly show who they are completely. Elizabeth's less able to save herself, though, because she's in a worse place emotionally. Ironically, she has no hope.

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Was anyone who tried allowed to defect? Let's say I, dubbel zout, average Soviet citizen, somehow managed to make it outside the Iron Curtain and present myself to a foreign embassy. Would it accept me as a defector? Or would I need to be famous like Navratilova or Mikhail Baryshnikov or a scientist/someone with specialized skill and/or knowledge?

Anyone could. In Moscow on the Hudson Robin Williams is a circus performer who defects. But those other kind of people are more likely to get the chance to do it. I wouldn't say artists etc. were all motivated by money. Artistic and intellectual freedom would surely be very tempting to people too.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, you are right. I guess what bugged me was that the slaughter took place early in the episode, days passed during the episode, and we still have nothing which indicates that Paige must now know that her mother murders people, or her reaction to that knowledge. Nor do we have indication of any realistic response by the FBI and wider law enforcement to the now certain knowledge of an ongoing murder spree with a national security origin, which would be huge. Instead, we have Claudia and Elizabeth chit chatting about tracking down and killing a couple of fairly trivial defectors in the D.C. area, in a residence provided by the FBI , when the D.C. area should be just swarming with law enforcement, with past composite sketches of our killin' couple, from previous operations. Like I said elsewhere, it is just lazily written t.v. mega-violence, divorced from any realistic portrayal of the outcome of violence. I really hate writing like that. A few scenes of Liz looking haggard isn't good enough.

I do agree that Paige's lack of noticing anything in the news bugs, as well as lack of news coverage in general. I am also surprised that the General's death is being called a suicide, despite all the signs of struggle. On the other hand, we don't know if, or how, Elizabeth might have cleaned up the scene once Paige left. As for the presence of law enforcement, I'm willing to believe that they haven't connected the pieces - especially given that they have so much going on locally at the moment - since there have been a number of real life cases where law enforcement dicn't notice or connect the dots.

45 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

sorry, I was thinking of high publicity baseball defectors ....  not your average on-the-bad-side-of-the-party Cuban wash-ashore (who got little publicity, but I think did often get protections most "illegal entrants" did not) 

The earlier waves of Cuban "illegal entrants"  were treated as the refugees they were. While they were not celebrities, I'd disagree they got little publicity. I remember watching hearing about them on the news quite a lot. I don't recall the details, but as I recall they were treated according to our laws at the time, once they set foot on our soil. There were a host of reasons they might have been more welcomed than others, given our relationship with Cuba. But that's not really pertinent here.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Clanstarling]

12 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Didn't Martha adopt a child at one point?  I do want to see Martha, but only if it leads to her eventual happiness. 

Yes she did. 3 years later, she's probably speaking Russian fairly well, and doing okay with her (daughter?).

[benteen]

1 hour ago, margol29 said:

I might be in the minority but, this season is lacking. For this to be the last season I would expect MORE from each episode. They seem to be wasting time on the small stuff. Phillip's money issues. Henry's boarding school. Wasted scenes shot in the DARK where you can't see what is going on. Unless it pays off in the end game. I want something to happen with Phillips son from USSR. They spent so much time last season on that and there was no payoff.

They should be grooming Henry for his part as a spy. He is old enough.

This season has no excitement, no suspense. There is nothing to leave you hanging and impatiently waiting for the next episode. I sure hope that this all pays off in the end.

AND I WANT SOME MARTHA!! She could be really unhappy with life in Moscow. Somehow she escapes back to the US and turns herself in and dishes all.

I don't think you're in the minority on this board.  I agree, I expect more from each other instead of the constant slow burn that we're getting.  There are literally six episodes left and the writers seem to be taking their sweet time on their way out the door.  The is after they took a 13-episode victory tour last season.  Although with the way Season 6 is going, I wonder now if Season 5 was less of a victory tour and more of a cry for help from the writers.

[Bannon]

46 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I do agree that Paige's lack of noticing anything in the news bugs, as well as lack of news coverage in general. I am also surprised that the General's death is being called a suicide, despite all the signs of struggle. On the other hand, we don't know if, or how, Elizabeth might have cleaned up the scene once Paige left. As for the presence of law enforcement, I'm willing to believe that they haven't connected the pieces - especially given that they have so much going on locally at the moment - since there have been a number of real life cases where law enforcement dicn't notice or connect the dots.

The earlier waves of Cuban "illegal entrants"  were treated as the refugees they were. While they were not celebrities, I'd disagree they got little publicity. I remember watching hearing about them on the news quite a lot. I don't recall the details, but as I recall they were treated according to our laws at the time, once they set foot on our soil. There were a host of reasons they might have been more welcomed than others, given our relationship with Cuba. But that's not really pertinent here.

It just isn't that easy to clean up a homicide scene, especially with regard to bullet trajectories. I just can't buy that anyone with a 3 digit I.Q. would see it as a suicide. If it was that easy to make a homicidal shooting declared a suicide, it would be happening all the time. YMMV, of course.

[sistermagpie]

29 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

There is something seriously screwed up in that family when Philip is the only one in control of Henry's destiny, and Elizabeth doesn't seem to much care about it.

At least Philip is trying to get involved with Paige to some degree, even though Elizabeth is pushing back a bit.

I am so hoping they'll do something with this, maybe at Thanksgiving with Henry at home. Because it's so stark. It's undermined by the fact that they showed Henry so little that many people saw a phantom story where Henry was supposed to be neglected by both his parents his whole life, but that wasn't intentional. This is more intentional.

Philip is involved with Paige despite Paige giving herself completely to Elizabeth. He's invested and cares what happens to her, even if he can't stop her from being a spy if she wants. After the general Paige went home and talked to her father etc. 

With Henry we've got a scene of Elizabeth not going to his hockey game when invited, scenes of Henry talking to Philip on the phone at the office so Elizabeth isn't there and a scene where Henry calls home and Paige and Elizabeth just wait for Philip to get rid of him so they can get back to their spy conversation. All of that could maybe be seen like the earlier seasons where Henry was just not seen as much because he was away (although there was no reason to have him interrupt them with that call). Like we just happen to see him talking to Philip but his relationship with Elizabeth is supposed to mirror Philip's to Paige's. 

But having her react to Philip's news about school by just saying "He's your department" seems pretty extreme. I know someone who didn't think the line was a big deal because they thought it was Elizabeth just showing trust in Philip's ability to work things about, but imo that doesn't really fit the moment. Because iirc the line isn't in response to finding the money or whatever, it's about Henry's reaction to Philip's news. She asks how it went when he told him this and Philip says, "I don't know." Iow, Philip's thinking about how Henry's feeling, since it's Henry's personality to react to being upset by withdrawing. 

So Elizabeth's line is in response to one of her kids just having gotten very bad news and maybe being really hurting and that almost implies that it's not just that Philip's taking care of the school stuff, it's that Elizabeth only cares about Paige's emotions now. This would be a huge blow to Henry. That's getting into some Ordinary People territory there. It could be really good family drama if they reveal that Henry is very aware of this. 

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It just isn't that easy to clean up a homicide scene, especially with regard to bullet trajectories. I just can't buy that anyone with a 3 digit I.Q. would see it as a suicide. If it was that easy to make a homicidal shooting declared a suicide, it would be happening all the time. YMMV, of course.

Seems like the show itself validated that by having Aderholdt and Stan talk about it by basically saying, "So, somebody murdered a General, huh?"

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 12:18 PM, mattie0808 said:

The travel agency is still Elizabeth’s main, ongoing, reliable, day-to-day cover isn’t it? (And, Mr. “I’m retired except for the minor consideration of the head of the Soviet Division”’s too.) How on earth can the KGB allow it to be in any real danger at all? Putting aside the idea that they should have been all over covering Henry’s tuition costs (because scholarships don’t go that far?) for separate reasons, even if they’re furious at Phillip for “retiring,” or not running the business properly, I can’t conceive of an operational justification for them letting the business fail, or even come close to or within shouting distance of failing. 

There may be a disconnect here as well.  I could see Philip wanting the agency to succeed because of him and therefore he's obsessing about how to do that, rather than turning to the KGB to bail him out. 

2 hours ago, margol29 said:

I might be in the minority but, this season is lacking. For this to be the last season I would expect MORE from each episode. They seem to be wasting time on the small stuff. Phillip's money issues. Henry's boarding school. Wasted scenes shot in the DARK where you can't see what is going on. Unless it pays off in the end game. I want something to happen with Phillips son from USSR. They spent so much time last season on that and there was no payoff.

I also find some of the loose ends from prior seasons (Philip's son, why Gaad was killed) a little odd, but I don't agree that the money issues and boarding school are "small stuff" or a waste of time.  The show has really always been about relationships in the Jennings family unit.  Those seemingly little things loom large.

[Erin9]

I definitely heard elizabeth’s line about Henry being his department as conveying a lack of interest in how he felt, his future, etc. I didn’t think it had anything to do with her being confident in Philip’s ability to fix things. She just wasn’t going to take the time to discuss it or be helpful. She’s tired; that’s it. 

Philip bringing up the issue opened the door for her to involve herself-and she failed to walk through it. He’s not a priority to her- not compared to all her spy stuff; it goes back to what she said at the beginning of the season when Philip said he had to talk to her. She specifically said if it was about Henry, etc it could wait. He’s not the priority. Wonder if she’ll live to regret that call somehow. 

Contrast that with Philip. He’s engaged and trying to be active in both their lives. Moreso with Henry because he’s not in spy training, but the difference between him and Elizabeth is clear.  

[benteen]

16 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

But having her react to Philip's news about school by just saying "He's your department" seems pretty extreme. I know someone who didn't think the line was a big deal because they thought it was Elizabeth just showing trust in Philip's ability to work things about, but imo that doesn't really fit the moment. Because iirc the line isn't in response to finding the money or whatever, it's about Henry's reaction to Philip's news. She asks how it went when he told him this and Philip says, "I don't know." Iow, Philip's thinking about how Henry's feeling, since it's Henry's personality to react to being upset by withdrawing. 

So Elizabeth's line is in response to one of her kids just having gotten very bad news and maybe being really hurting and that almost implies that it's not just that Philip's taking care of the school stuff, it's that Elizabeth only cares about Paige's emotions now. This would be a huge blow to Henry. That's getting into some Ordinary People territory there. It could be really good family drama if they reveal that Henry is very aware of this. 

 

Someone noted in a review that it's like a divorce but that the kids got separated instead.

[Erin9]

17 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

There may be a disconnect here as well.  I could see Philip wanting the agency to succeed because of him and therefore he's obsessing about how to do that, rather than turning to the KGB to bail him out. 

I also find some of the loose ends from prior seasons (Philip's son, why Gaad was killed) a little odd, but I don't agree that the money issues and boarding school are "small stuff" or a waste of time.  The show has really always been about relationships in the Jennings family unit.  Those seemingly little things loom large.

I guess the way I see it, so far, it seems like other family issues might be more interesting than some of the ones they’ve chosen. Like Philip’s background. Or something more relatable than boarding school issues. 

2 minutes ago, benteen said:

Someone noted in a review that it's like a divorce but that the kids got separated instead.

Except Philip is still more involved with Paige. 

[Bannon]

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Seems like the show itself validated that by having Aderholdt and Stan talk about it by basically saying, "So, somebody murdered a General, huh?"

Well, yes, but if the General's death is openly identified as a homicide, that's a big deal, and should be followed with appeals to the public for anyone who was around the park that night. Which again renders the conversation in the kitchen in the last episode ridiculous. And now we have a warehouse slaughter to add to it, along with an assasination being planned. If others like it, fine, but I really don't.

[topanga]

On 4/19/2018 at 10:53 AM, sistermagpie said:

That reminds me of a podcast I listened to once about how happiness is relative. There was one guy interviewed whose father grew up in a very difficult time in Pakistan and he talked about how he was really jealous of his father's ability to enjoy little things in life. I thought it was kind of great to show Philip being able to have fun just by dancing with his memories of such a sad life where he was always struggling. It's such a contrast to Elizabeth's need to make everything about work and having content for people enjoying anything.

Which podcast? Sounds great. 

Philip looked great line dancing. 

I think Elizabeth is being willfully ignorant about the Soviet Union. She’s intelligent enough not to believe that everything is perfect over there, and she sees in the KGB agents she meets that not everyone is honorable or loyal. But she’s devoted her entire adult life fighting for this cause, so it would be hard for her to own up to her doubts. 

Much the same way she can’t believe that Paige is a good spy, but admitting that to herself would mean accepting that her instincts were wrong. Which Elizabeth does not want to do. 

I do think Elizabeth is a complex character, but she’s being written as one-note. Keri Russell is doing a great job with the marterial she’s been written.

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth is claiming it's a bad idea, but it's impossible to not know that she's proud of Paige for her initiative as a spy, not as a girl who might have met a cute guy.

I think here she was genuine when she told Paige she (Paige) wasn't at all ready to mix business with pleasure. Plus, interns in DC are a dime a dozen, and it didn't take any particular skill to meet and talk to this guy, especially given they're the same age. Showing initiative would be going after someone who could give them legit intel. Some 24-year-old isn't going to have much access, as has been pointed out by other posters.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

Well, yes, but if the General's death is openly identified as a homicide, that's a big deal, and should be followed with appeals to the public for anyone who was around the park that night.

Oh yeah, I agree. I just meant that the show itself is admitting that that's not a scene that could be just brushed off as a suicide by anyone who actually thought about it. And then they did it again in this episode where Philip tried to walk Paige through the obvious holes in the story. That's three reliable characters all not just saying they think it's a homicide but that it's an *obvious* homicide. 

9 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I guess the way I see it, so far, it seems like other family issues might be more interesting than some of the ones they’ve chosen. Like Philip’s background. Or something more relatable than boarding school issues. 

Yes, I see the thematic point of having Philip question capitalism but I'm never really going to care about Philip as a small business owner. The only interesting thing about him poring over spreadsheets again was his flashback to his far more interesting childhood. (So was that scene after his father died? Does it indicate his life got harder, or was he part of the urchin crowd even when he was alive? Why do all flashbacks that aren't about his father make him look like an orphan?) 

I see wanting to have a story where Philip can definitively show that he does not actually prefer capitalism and is still driven by a desire to protect and help the innocent rather than make money. But again, that doesn't mean I want to spend any time on his money worries. I have my own there. I *can* care about stories like that, but it's not what I care about with Philip. I'd much rather have it used as an excuse to get into Philip's backstory to illuminate what he wants to see in the world. I mean, with Elizabeth her flashbacks all stress how she was taught to be loyal to the cause etc. Philip's obviously more coming from a place of feeling vulnerable. In some ways it would be nice to use the character to show Socialist or Communist ideas as a practical and compassionate response to suffering rather than faith.

I realized last night that I would have loved a scene where Wee Philip just got to hang out with that little girl with the worried sharing the bowl with him. I was practically shipping them! 

3 minutes ago, topanga said:

Which podcast? Sounds great. 

 

I found the episode! It was from Invisibilia and it was Hasan Minhaj who told the story. Here's a transcript and you can listen to it here too: https://www.npr.org/2016/07/08/484363017/read-the-transcript

10 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I think here she was genuine when she told Paige she (Paige) wasn't at all ready to mix business with pleasure. Plus, interns in DC are a dime a dozen, and it didn't take any particular skill to meet and talk to this guy, especially given they're the same age. Showing initiative would be going after someone who could give them legit intel. Some 24-year-old isn't going to have much access, as has been pointed out by other posters.

Oh sure. I don't mean that Elizabeth was intentionally encourage her to go after the guy as a source. I meant that in general Paige is constantly getting the message that Elizabeth likes it when she's doing stuff for the Cause and isn't interested in much else because that's pretty much the way she acts.

It's a lot like last season when Elizabeth was telling Paige that she *should not* read Pastor Tim's diary because it could be dangerous etc. But then she also told her she thought it was really brave of her to want to do that. What did Paige do? She kept reading the diary. She heard "You're very brave for wanting to do that" much more loudly than "Don't take that risk." Paige thinks she can decide risks herself. 

[Umbelina]

10 hours ago, AllyB said:

How murderous do we think Elizabeth is? Claudia has sent her after the Teacups and she has Marilyn and Norm tracking Stan who will soon be visiting them. So Elizabeth is sure to locate them in the next episode or two. Killing them will be easier than taking them in and Elizabeth won't hesitate to take out a couple of traitors. But what if the cute little seven year old is unexpectedly home at the time? Will she kill him too or falter at the cold blooded murder of a child and leave him to ID her. There is only 6 hours of this show left and with Elizabeth now after the one last case Stan is working for counter-intelligence, this convergence is likely where we finally get the pay-off for the years of Beeman-Jennings interactions.

I said last week that this episode should be a huge clue to where we will go with a series ending.

I agree, the Teacups will be that story, in all likelihood.  We could have an exciting near miss I suppose, something like the time 11 FBI cars were following Philip and Elizabeth for hours, until Philip rolled out of the car and enlisted the Residentura's assistance in staging that multi car crash.  That was an exciting episode, but I think with only 6 episode left?  This time the KGB will not win.

It's a collision course between Stan and Elizabeth.  Of course the cute little seven year old will be there, he's under relocation protection.  I'm sure, if they could, they would make Gennadi's death less obviously a murder, but considering the family is under guard all the time right now, I don't know how that could happen.

I understand the KGB not wanting a hockey star to be revealed as a defector.  Hockey is huge.  I'm unclear if they know he was actually already spying for the FBI.  The defection alone would be, as Claudia said, such bad publicity for the struggling USSR.

8 hours ago, BetyBee said:

I care about Henry.  He is the innocent Jennings.  What happens to him as the series unfolds, will be the most tragic, imo.  Perhaps he represents all of the lives the Jennings have ruined or ended.  He's a good kid, a smart kid and he is an American kid.  It's the former Soviet Union that is about to end, but everything he thought was real is also about to end.  I find his story very compelling  

He was also a damn fine, and natural actor from the very start of the show, his Eddie Murphy impressions were spot on, his "I'm a GOOD PERSON" tears after being caught after breaking into his neighbor's house to play video games broke my heart. That kid could go far in acting.   If the writers hadn't been hell-bent on the Elizabeth/Paige mini me story as an eventual end?  Aw, what might have been...  Still, they've finally decided to throw us a bone and link up Philip and Henry as counterpoint.  I don't think that was planned until the outcry from the watchers about really enjoying the actor playing Henry.

6 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

I'm glad you framed it out in this way because to me the Gennadi-could-wind-up-in-Time-magazine thing seemed less like a real concern someone like Claudia would have and more like narrative contrivance to place Stan and Elizabeth on a collision course. Preventing him from becoming a Martina Navratilova, though, doesn't seem worth killing him and his (estranged) wife over, which seems to be where Elizabeth's head is at these days.

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I think it's real.  Hockey is huge in Russia. 

5 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Can you blame them? Life was pretty circumscribed even for the people who were allowed to travel outside the USSR. The KGB was constantly watching every move you made.

Was anyone who tried allowed to defect? Let's say I, dubbel zout, average Soviet citizen, somehow managed to make it outside the Iron Curtain and present myself to a foreign embassy. Would it accept me as a defector? Or would I need to be famous like Navratilova or Mikhail Baryshnikov or a scientist/someone with specialized skill and/or knowledge?

Allowed?  Only a few Jewish people as I recall, traded for things that benefited the USSR and a bit of good publicity.  As we saw with the Anton story.  Some regular people did manage to escape, I don't think there was much USA publicity about them.

5 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

eta: The tales of derring-do, evading the minders and the leap to freedom were suspenseful and the stuff of spy novels ...  I do recall some fraught stories of defections of spies (that went awry).  How the soviet people would react to finding out about the Teacups working relationship with the FBI, I'm not sure. 

 

Not really all the stuff of spy novels.  My friend did it, though he wasn't a spy, just a doctor.  We wouldn't really hear about that many KGB spies that defected, for obvious reasons, but I'm sure there were.  We certainly heard of a few USA spies that defected to the soviets.

5 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I remember line dancing when I started going out with the mister, and that was in the mid-80's.

-----

Lying to strangers and marks, yeah, she's probably fine with that. But I think she may be realizing that if she follows this life, she'll have to lie to everyone - that any chance of a normal romantic relationship, a normal friendship, or even a normal working relationship, will be off the books for her.

---

I took typing, because I knew I was going to be a lit major and would be typing papers. But I didn't take shorthand, which was big in the day, so that I wouldn't go the "easy" route to being a secretary. Which I didn't, worked in tech for most of my adult life (and still do). Though ten years ago I helped out a friend by replacing his secretary for a while - and was totally humbled by how hard the job really was.

 

I honestly loved line dancing, and yeah, it was big in the eighties.  Everyone could participate, and a good feeling was developed with strangers in the group of dancers.

Yes, I'd forgotten the whole Paige "I can't lie!" stuff.  Good catch.  That look of hers in bed seemed to be showing, for the first time, that she may have some doubts about this whole spy thing after all, and that maybe pleasing mommy isn't worth all that she will do and give up.

I took typing because it was the only class that fit into my 1/2 day senior year, as I was also working full time.  I hated it.  Now?  I'm SO glad I did.  I probably type about 90 words a minute on a computer (with the occasionally typo from my remote keyboard, as you may have noticed by my edits here.)  We didn't know computers would come in, and typing would be a great skill to have no matter what the job, but they did, and here we are.  No more waiting for white out to dry either!  ;)

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I guess the way I see it, so far, it seems like other family issues might be more interesting than some of the ones they’ve chosen. Like Philip’s background. Or something more relatable than boarding school issues. 

I HOPE we get the rest of Philip's background, and ALSO an update on Misha.  I don't mind the issues they've chosen though.  Elizabeth's steadfast commitment to the cause, and Philip's attraction to the United States.  Neither is working out well for either of them, both have put each in hell.

Will there be a pay off?  I have to think so.

1 hour ago, topanga said:

I think Elizabeth is being willfully ignorant about the Soviet Union. She’s intelligent enough not to believe that everything is perfect over there, and she sees in the KGB agents she meets that not everyone is honorable or loyal. But she’s devoted her entire adult life fighting for this cause, so it would be hard for her to own up to her doubts. 

Much the same way she can’t believe that Paige is a good spy, but admitting that to herself would mean accepting that her instincts were wrong. Which Elizabeth does not want to do. 

I do think Elizabeth is a complex character, but she’s being written as one-note. Keri Russell is doing a great job with the marterial she’s been written.

Elizabeth has said many, MANY times on the show "I know it's not perfect" when speaking about the Soviet Union.  What Elizabeth believes in is the ideal, that working for it, and overcoming those issues, will allow Marx's dream of true equality and fairness to happen world wide.  She sees, and rightly so in many ways, the USA as the biggest problem in realizing that. 

I agree with you about the willful self-deception about Paige, not just what she's capable of, but also, about what she will be required to do once she's full KGB spying.  However, we HAVE seen Elizabeth show doubts about both of those things.  She's very aware she's lying to Granny and Philip, and we got a glimpse of her being aware it's hopeless and she's lying to herself as well.  A few times now.

I don't think Elizabeth is one-note at all.  This season she's "tired all the time."  She's burning out now.  As Philip said "It's finally getting to you." 

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

I think here she was genuine when she told Paige she (Paige) wasn't at all ready to mix business with pleasure. Plus, interns in DC are a dime a dozen, and it didn't take any particular skill to meet and talk to this guy, especially given they're the same age. Showing initiative would be going after someone who could give them legit intel. Some 24-year-old isn't going to have much access, as has been pointed out by other posters.

Yes, I think Elizabeth was being genuine. 

I will say this, in Washington, knowing an intern could get you introduced to their Senator very easily.  A get together with dates, etc.  The other thing I'll say is that the power players in Washington, yes, even back then?  Were an incredibly horny bunch of men.  I was hit on so many times, simply walking down the street, once at dinner with friends at the Watergate, once in the Senate dining room with another friend's boyfriend who was doing something in finance for the RNC.  I was invited to embassy parties, private tours of various places, all kinds of crap.  I spent a lot of time in Washington in my twenties and thirties, and could have become involved with any number of ambassadors, senators, congressmen, white house aides.

Paige would have very little trouble meeting power players there.  I did it, without even trying, and she's petite and looks VERY young.  Exactly many of these middle-age crisis guy's type.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I said last week that this episode should be a huge clue to where we will go with a series ending.

I agree, the Teacups will be that story, in all likelihood.  We could have an exciting near miss I suppose, something like the time 11 FBI cars were following Philip and Elizabeth for hours, until Philip rolled out of the car and enlisted the Residentura's assistance in staging that multi car crash.  That was an exciting episode, but I think with only 6 episode left?  This time the KGB will not win.

It's a collision course between Stan and Elizabeth.  Of course the cute little seven year old will be there, he's under relocation protection.  I'm sure, if they could, they would make Gennadi's death less obviously a murder, but considering the family is under guard all the time right now, I don't know how that could happen.

I understand the KGB not wanting a hockey star to be revealed as a defector.  Hockey is huge.  I'm unclear if they know he was actually already spying for the FBI.  The defection alone would be, as Claudia said, such bad publicity for the struggling USSR.

He was also a damn fine, and natural actor from the very start of the show, his Eddie Murphy impressions were spot on, his "I'm a GOOD PERSON" tears after being caught after breaking into his neighbor's house to play video games broke my heart. That kid could go far in acting.   If the writers hadn't been hell-bent on the Elizabeth/Paige mini me story as an eventual end?  Aw, what might have been...  Still, they've finally decided to throw us a bone and link up Philip and Henry as counterpoint.  I don't think that was planned until the outcry from the watchers about really enjoying the actor playing Henry.

I think it's real.  Hockey is huge in Russia. 

Allowed?  Only a few Jewish people as I recall, traded for things that benefited the USSR and a bit of good publicity.  As we saw with the Anton story.  Some regular people did manage to escape, I don't think there was much USA publicity about them.

Not really all the stuff of spy novels.  My friend did it, though he wasn't a spy, just a doctor.  We wouldn't really hear about that many KGB spies that defected, for obvious reasons, but I'm sure there were.  We certainly heard of a few USA spies that defected to the soviets.

I honestly loved line dancing, and yeah, it was big in the eighties.  Everyone could participate, and a good feeling was developed with strangers in the group of dancers.

Yes, I'd forgotten the whole Paige "I can't lie!" stuff.  Good catch.  That look of hers in bed seemed to be showing, for the first time, that she may have some doubts about this whole spy thing after all, and that maybe pleasing mommy isn't worth all that she will do and give up.

I took typing because it was the only class that fit into my 1/2 day senior year, as I was also working full time.  I hated it.  Now?  I'm SO glad I did.  I probably type about 90 words a minute on a computer (with the occasionally typo from my remote keyboard, as you may have noticed by my edits here.)  We didn't know computers would come in, and typing would be a great skill to have no matter what the job, but they did, and here we are.  No more waiting for white out to dry either!  ;)

I HOPE we get the rest of Philip's background, and ALSO an update on Misha.  I don't mind the issues they've chosen though.  Elizabeth's steadfast commitment to the cause, and Philip's attraction to the United States.  Neither is working out well for either of them, both have put each in hell.

Will there be a pay off?  I have to think so.

Elizabeth has said many, MANY times on the show "I know it's not perfect" when speaking about the Soviet Union.  What Elizabeth believes in is the ideal, that working for it, and overcoming those issues, will allow Marx's dream of true equality and fairness to happen world wide.  She sees, and rightly so in many ways, the USA as the biggest problem in realizing that. 

I agree with you about the willful self-deception about Paige, not just what she's capable of, but also, about what she will be required to do once she's full KGB spying.  However, we HAVE seen Elizabeth show doubts about both of those things.  She's very aware she's lying to Granny and Philip, and we got a glimpse of her being aware it's hopeless and she's lying to herself as well.  A few times now.

I don't think Elizabeth is one-note at all.  This season she's "tired all the time."  She's burning out now.  As Philip said "It's finally getting to you." 

Yes, I think Elizabeth was being genuine. 

I will say this, in Washington, knowing an intern could get you introduced to their Senator very easily.  A get together with dates, etc.  The other thing I'll say is that the power players in Washington, yes, even back then?  Were an incredibly horny bunch of men.  I was hit on so many times, simply walking down the street, once at dinner with friends at the Watergate, once in the Senate dining room with another friend's boyfriend who was doing something in finance for the RNC.  I was invited to embassy parties, private tours of various places, all kinds of crap.  I spent a lot of time in Washington in my twenties and thirties, and could have become involved with any number of ambassadors, senators, congressmen, white house aides.

Paige would have very little trouble meeting power players there.  I did it, without even trying, and she's petite and looks VERY young.  Exactly many of this middle-age crisis guy's type.

Really have to severely disagree that the United States is rightly seen, in many ways, as the biggest problem in achieving "Marx's dream of true equality and fairness to happen world wide", but I'm not going to debate it.

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

It just isn't that easy to clean up a homicide scene, especially with regard to bullet trajectories.

But the trajectory would have to be consistent with Rennhull shooting himself, because as Elizabeth pointed out to Philip last week, he did shoot himself -- Liz just ensured that he fired the gun at his own face instead of her. So while Liz would have to get pretty lucky not to have left bruises or other sure signs of a struggle, trajectory, powder burns, etc. wouldn't necessarily point to a second party.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Dev F

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Really have to severely disagree that the United States is rightly seen, in many ways, as the biggest problem in achieving "Marx's dream of true equality and fairness to happen world wide", but I'm not going to debate it.

Disagree that that's what Elizabeth believes?  Or that the goal of the USA wasn't to eliminate the USSR as a world force, from the beginning of their revolution until Reagan?

OK then. 

[Bannon]

It does seem that through 4  seasons, the writers made the FBI and CIA idiots of convenience, in order for plot advancement, and then last year switched, and started making Phil, Liz, and Claudia idiots of convenience. Last year, Phil and Liz couldn't recognize the obvious, that nothing about the wheat project resembled a bioweapons program, so the writers could have them uselessly screwing and killing people. Now, it certainly appears that Claudia and Liz are about to pursue significant risk, in the wake of a murder spree, to kill two low value defectors. I really, really, hope that the attempt to murder Mr. and Mrs. Teacup does not figure prominently in the resolution of this show. We'll see, I guess.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, Dev F said:

But the trajectory would have to be consistent with Rennhull shooting himself, because as Elizabeth pointed out to Philip last week, he did shoot himself -- Liz just ensured that he fired the gun at his own face instead of her. So while Liz would have to get pretty lucky not to have left bruises or other sure signs of a struggle, trajectory, powder burns, etc. wouldn't necessarily point to a second party.

It would be pretty easy to surmise that the General was prone when shot, and the far more typical self inflicted gunshot, especially by someone familiar with pistols, is the gun barrel pressed to the roof of the mouth, or pressed firmly against the temple. This would not look like a suicide, but rather a homicide somewhat clumsily staged to look like a suicide.

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, Dev F said:

But the trajectory would have to be consistent with Rennhull shooting himself, because as Elizabeth pointed out to Philip last week, he did shoot himself -- Liz just ensured that he fired the gun at his own face instead of her. So while Liz would have to get pretty lucky not to have left bruises or other sure signs of a struggle, trajectory, powder burns, etc. wouldn't necessarily point to a second party.

It's the second bullet that bothered me the most about that whole thing.

They would notice two bullets missing, and they would search for the other bullet.  Of course, they could just write that off as a misfire I suppose, that the first time he tried, he chickened out or his hands were shaking or something.

True, Elizabeth did have time to clean up signs of the struggle, I'd forgotten that she didn't immediately leave with Paige.  That was a pretty fucking huge loose end to leave dangling though, and I'm disappointed in the writers for that.

Gennadi defecting to the USA would be like a Joe Namath defecting to the USSR.

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Disagree that that's what Elizabeth believes?  Or that the goal of the USA wasn't to eliminate the USSR as a world force, from the beginning of their revolution until Reagan?

OK then. 

Disagree with your use of "rightly so", in that it isn't even remotely close to proven that U.S. policy was the biggest problem in achieving the goals of Marx. Heck, you'd first have to establish that Marx's goal are even achievable in ideal conditions for achieving them. That isn't even close to established, either.

[dubbel zout]

32 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Allowed?

I didn't mean this in the sense that the USSR gave the okay, I meant it in the sense that if Average Soviet Citizen were able to make it to a foreign embassy, that embassy would process the defection.

[sistermagpie]

36 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I really want Henry to stay away as much as possible.  He seems to pick up on things pretty quick.  At least that was the case an episode or two ago when he was talking to his dad on the phone. 

LOL! It's a nice contrast to have Henry picking up on things over the phone while Paige responds to Philip's practically spelling it out for her questions about the suicide by giving him a look that says Philip's the idiot.

31 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, I'd forgotten the whole Paige "I can't lie!" stuff.  Good catch.  That look of hers in bed seemed to be showing, for the first time, that she may have some doubts about this whole spy thing after all, and that maybe pleasing mommy isn't worth all that she will do and give up.

 

According to her mother, Elizabeth also always "insists on truth." I think they both come to the same conclusion, that lying in the service of this cause is a different thing. Elizabeth is really a pretty honest person in general despite her job. That's probably also why she's so good at lying to herself. She's always trying to make everything be straightforward and honest in her head and that requires some self-deception.

31 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I took typing because it was the only class that fit into my 1/2 day senior year, as I was also working full time.  I hated it.  Now?  I'm SO glad I did

I have to weigh in on this now because my mother (who can't type) was always encouraging me to learn it. I couldn't fit it into my schedule so she took me to a job center on Saturdays to learn it. She basically had the opposite feeling about it. She thought it was great to have that skill because she had a friend who was a secretary and when her boss got promoted she got promoted as his secretary with him. Then once she had to entertain some visiting client and they went to a show and eventually they got married!

Then she was surprised that I was disgusted by this story. Um, so the woman gets all her importance through the man  and then it's part of her job to date clients? Great!

The typing idea was great, though. Got me much better pay when I was temping and in general it's great to be able to type really fast. Fun fact: nowadays you can get the same education on websites.

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It's the second bullet that bothered me the most about that whole thing.

They would notice two bullets missing, and they would search for the other bullet.  Of course, they could just write that off as a misfire I suppose, that the first time he tried, he chickened out or his hands were shaking or something.

True, Elizabeth did have time to clean up signs of the struggle, I'd forgotten that she didn't immediately leave with Paige.  That was a pretty fucking huge loose end to leave dangling though, and I'm disappointed in the writers for that.

Gennadi defecting to the USA would be like a Joe Namath defecting to the USSR.

All the more reason that it would be a propaganda disaster to kill Gennadi. It makes no sense. After Stalin, the KGB did not try to assassinate athletes and artists.

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Great, now I have got an image of Namath wearing panty hose in my head.  Please make it go away. 

Whenever I read Namath, I think of that commercial.

12 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I didn't mean this in the sense that the USSR gave the okay, I meant it in the sense that if Average Soviet Citizen were able to make it to a foreign embassy, that embassy would process the defection.

Good question.  My friend the doctor had some group arrange a "sponsor" for him, so they (after a few harrowing hours while he found the place) picked him up and got him to an embassy, it went easily after that.  The US embassy cooperated willingly.

His biggest issue was slipping away from the group, and then that he escaped in NYC, and though he spoke 9 languages, English wasn't one of them.  (He quickly learned once he was settled here, mostly by watching TV obsessively, and not allowing people to speak to him in Russian.  He used French for translation when needed.)

So, his biggest issue was navigating through NYC after making an escape from the closely watched group of doctors who were allowed to visit to learn some new medical thing.  I'm sure it was terrifying, trying to find the meet up place in that city, with no English.  He'd also very carefully arranged to be included in that group, and warned his parents, who were punished back in the USSR.  

Edited April 20, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

Just now, icemiser69 said:

I think she gets some of that from Elizabeth.  I am not sure at this point how much Elizabeth respects Philip.  Either that, or Paige is so desperate to please her mother that she will buy into anything and everything her mother says. 

Yes, and it goes along with her lecturing Philip about the suicide with Elizabeth's explanation as if she was even there, and as if Philip doesn't know how the world works the way she does. She's really picking up on that skill of dealing with anything that happens by folding into the approved story. The Gospel according to Elizabeth. 

Last week Philip had encouraged her to actually deal with stuff instead of doing that, but as usual his advice wasn't a simple solution. Philip's unconditional love also seems to make her value it less. It's happened for years--I remember back in season 3 Paige was constantly giving all her respect to Elizabeth who was manipulating her while dismissing Philip who was being respectful of her.

It'll be interesting if Philip starts asserting himself more effectively.

Spoilers from preview for next week:

Spoiler

There was a behind the scenes picture on Twitter a while back from the next ep of Elizabeth and Paige doing a garage training session and we've seen clips of one in previews. Next week's preview also seems to include the scene of Philip and Paige sparring. I'm really hoping we get the training session first with Paige feeling all the more arrogant about her skills, especially before milquetoast dad, and that Philip wipes the floor with her. After Elizabeth's recent antics I can't trust that things will go according to all rules of physics if Paige and her father spar.

[Umbelina]

Yes to that spoiler!  YesYes!Yes!

[Umbelina]

I know some don't visit the media thread, so I'm going to put this here, since Oleg has SO many fans.

Costa Ronin, Joe and Joel are all on the PODCAST this week.

So far, it's pretty good, talking about the reason for the darkness, one of their wives saying "So only 6 episodes left?" after she watched this one, causing him to realize "Oh, people are experiencing it that way."

Anyway, worth a listen this week, if for no other reason, Costa!  (The JJ's are good too this week though.)