S06.E04: Mr. And Mrs. Teacup

[Darrenbrett]

On 4/21/2018 at 8:46 AM, Erin9 said:

I don’t think he’d have looked twice at her really. Elizabeth looked very different. He’d have to have made a point of staring at random people in a restaurant, noticing Elizabeth, then thinking hair, glasses etc aside she looks like the nurse....maybe she is the nurse. Highly unlikely imo. It’s not like he was likely to glance at Elizabeth and click in on the resemblance. 

It was dangerous, but comparatively speaking, not that dangerous. 

Yeah, I'm not saying she was likely to be discovered. 99 times out of 100 she wouldn't be. But the risk was there. And, more than anything else, it just seemed unnecessary. I mean, why not send in one of their "support cast" to do that intel? Why take that risk at all? 

[Milburn Stone]

I do agree with those who have pointed out that the travel agency story is a vivid portrayal of the perils of capitalism. (And a grueling wakeup call for Philip in his growing "love affair" with America.) I'm just saying that for The Centre, it displays an implicit belief that capitalism works--if they believe they can start up a company and see it become a thriving concern in a free market without intervention from them on the business side.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Milburn Stone

[Ina123]

I'm wondering if he is allowed to do anything he wants with the agency. Was the expansion approved or does he have a free hand? If not, why did he expand? If it's only a cover and Centre can hand out money, why even invest in expansion? If it just needs to function as cover, it doesn't have to boom, does it? Do they have to appear so successful? They really just have to appear well off enough to maintain their lifestyle so they don't bring attention to themselves. Want to bring attention to them...go bankrupt. They can't let that happen.

[benteen]

I think Henry is too old to be made into a second generation illegal.  He's much more American than anyone in the family and unlike Paige, he's smart and inquisitive.  He's not going to buy the story about the general committing suicide.

My prediction, Henry will save us all!

Seeing as Henry's scholarship was sloppily retconned, you would think the KGB would have an interest in keeping him at the school because of the connections (it's comical that they, Elizabeth and Philip can't see the value in it or him) and keeping the travel agency afloat because Philip is still "on the payroll" and the travel agency still provides cover for him and Elizabeth.

Edited April 23, 2018 by benteen

[SusanSunflower]

Agree Benteen, A little exposition would go a long way in clarifying what's happened in the last 3 years and dumb stuff like how dire is the Travel Agency's financial problems (and for how long)  and how big and unaffordable Henry's school bill is (and how many more semesters he is from graduation, and what the college plan for him is/was).   If the Jennings set up college funds for both kids, there are different options than if they are and have been flying by the seat of their pants (for years as the Travel Agency has been sliding towards bankruptcy).  No one wants to discuss American bankruptcy in the 1980's at this point, but it was pretty common as I recall. Frustrating because I thought Phillip was both smarter and more responsible than this suggests ... Is he too "proud" to ask for help or admit the problems to anyone?? 

[spaceghostess]

On 4/19/2018 at 12:12 AM, suomi said:

I could watch a whole hour of Philip line dancing because he is so joyously "in the moment."

Yup; he's hardcore adorkable in those scenes.

Edited April 24, 2018 by spaceghostess
Don't know why I put that hyphen in there.

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Darrenbrett said:

I mean, why not send in one of their "support cast" to do that intel? Why take that risk at all? 

Because she's not spying on the State Department guy there, she's spying on Gorbachev's guy. She can't tell anyone about that and needs to do it herself to know what she's listening for.

4 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I'm wondering if he is allowed to do anything he wants with the agency. Was the expansion approved or does he have a free hand?

I can't believe the Centre has any idea what's going on day to day at the agency. They're stretched thin as it is and they're not experts in running a small business. 

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

and how many more semesters he is from graduation, and what the college plan for him is/was).

We know that much. He's in the first semester of his junior year.

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Frustrating because I thought Phillip was both smarter and more responsible than this suggests ... Is he too "proud" to ask for help or admit the problems to anyone?? 

I think they've explained it as much as they're trying to--the agency was doing well so he expanded and got a loan to do that, then it didn't pan out. In terms of admitting problems, that's an interesting question. He's told Elizabeth and Henry. I'm not sure exactly how dire the problems are supposed to be. Like, are we worried about actual bankruptcy or is it something less than that? Especially given that Elizabeth and Philip actually still be paid by the Centre for the info they're providing. Even Paige should probably be getting paid for her nonsense. 

3 hours ago, benteen said:

I think Henry is too old to be made into a second generation illegal.  He's much more American than anyone in the family and unlike Paige, he's smart and inquisitive.  He's not going to buy the story about the general committing suicide.

 

Yeah, the weird thing with Henry was how they had this whole storyline where this was the big threat to the kids and then the KGB just lost interest in it? Was Paige really the best they thought they could do? That makes no sense they wouldn't want to roll the dice again with Henry.

But it would be funny if they did because I agree, it seems like a completely pointless exercise. I think he very much might keep the secret but he wouldn't be swallowing the stuff Paige is and he'd obviously have his father's support for that. 

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I do agree with those who have pointed out that the travel agency story is a vivid portrayal of the perils of capitalism. (And a grueling wakeup call for Philip in his growing "love affair" with America.) I'm just saying that for The Centre, it displays an implicit belief that capitalism works--if they believe they can start up a company and see it become a thriving concern in a free market without intervention from them on the business side.

 

Philip didn't "start up" anything.  The KGB gave it to him like a present, along with his house, clothing, car, furniture, etc. etc. etc.  All Philip had to do was keep it afloat.

Instead Philip read a bunch of books, as he told Stan, telling him he had to keep growing to be successful.  He took out a massive loan, took over the place "next door" to expand, remodeled the entire place, bought everyone their own computers, and hired a bunch more people.  He gave pep talks rather than maintain his old clients, and was trying to be an executive rather than just someone who meets with clients and books tours.  He now "has people" for that.

After all these years of Elizabeth and Philip making a decent living off of their small family business, WHY would the KGB even give it a second thought?  They are worried about disarmament and survival not some stupid Travel Agency front in Virginia.    The rest of the world probably thinks they bought their house from that business, but they, in all likelihood, did not, that was the KGB.

In what universe is that capitalism?  Philip tried to become a "real" capitalist and expand on his own, far beyond what the KGB had arranged for him, and blew it.  Like many others, he did too much too soon, and is facing losing his business now, and possibly his home if he also took out a mortgage. 

COULD the KGB step in and save both business and home?  Probably, even though they are so broke they are about to lose their USSR.  Will they?  I don't think Philip wants to tell them, for many reasons, including Henry, and especially now, with his Oleg operation to save Gorbachev.  However, he told Elizabeth, and while she has much more on her mind that finances, she may mention that to Claudia, who will understand how important it all is, and will tell Center anyway. 

Elizabeth is preparing to die.  She doesn't give a fuck about their house, their business, Henry's school, Philip's worries, or much of anything beyond Paige carrying on her legacy/dream.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Umbelina

[kay1864]

On 4/19/2018 at 12:58 AM, skippylou said:

This season has already tied the record low viewership.  They're gonna break that record soon.  

Even with that...odd to think that only 1 in 400 Americans (roughly) are watching this show.  Still tops darn near everything else in my book.

[ahpny]

Quote

Or the financial situation of the travel agency, I'm not sure what the point of this is. Philip needs Elizabeth. The downsides of capitalism. Philip and Elizabeth are both failing. In the grand scheme of this show, it still seems rather irrelevant.

Quote

The travel agency storyline is nothing more than to inject some "Capitalism is hard, too" storyline, perhaps to try to make the story seem a little less "Communism is evil."

Quote

He may still do that.  I do think this story has a point in it somewhere.  Ha.  Maybe when he gets desperate enough he'll ask the KGB to float him some money, and they will say "Sure, ready to go back to work now?"

I’m not sure about the point of the travel business failure plot thread, but it seems like it has to lead somewhere more significant than some generic critique of capitalism. I can guess that it creates leverage useable against Philip later. He’s prone to being worked as an asset by someone – the Feds, Russians (both pro and anti-Gorby), or even his own wife. “Do this and we’ll keep your son in school (and later college) and float your failing business for the short term and see where we go.” Easy-peasy. Of course this ignores the Centre's role in originating the travel business as front (and presumably still using it for such for Elizabeth), but as many have pointed out, not everything here makes sense.

Quote

Paige looked very pretty in the bar scenes.  Honestly it's the first time I've noticed that, she seemed relaxed and beautifully young and fresh. 

I noticed that too, maybe it was different makeup or lighting, but she looked great.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth is preparing to die.  She doesn't give a fuck about their house, their business, Henry's school, Philip's worries, or much of anything beyond Paige carrying on her legacy/dream.

That made me think about something about this ep--I hesitate to post about it like an actual thing because I'm not predicting the show is going this way, but this made me think of it.

They've set up this split between Elizabeth/Paige and Philip/Henry--though as we see in this ep Philip hasn't given Paige up. There's several ways to contrast the two pairs--male/female, America/Russia, spies/civilians etc. But it also struck me that for all the many scenes devoted to mother and daughter both with and without Claudia, Paige isn't providing emotional support for Elizabeth any more than anyone else is. She doesn't know about the secret mission, hasn't noticed her mother's emotional state. Elizabeth is mostly just curating Paige's experience as carefully as she can. Paige is focused on herself almost exclusively. The one time she focused on Elizabeth was when she ran into a crime scene, which was bad. (And even that is possibly a child's impulsive fear of being left alone.)

With Philip, they didn't go with the cliche of the father who hides his financial troubles etc. (in fact that's what Elizabeth's doing), Philip comes clean about his fuck up and a couple weeks ago he and Henry had the "you sound like you're going to jump out a window" convo. We don't know how Henry's going to react to the news. Maybe we won't even see him this week. Maybe he'll now be angry and resentful or snobbish to his father. Maybe he'll just solve his own problem by getting a scholarship and not care about Philip's issues beyond that. We don't know.

But it would be interesting given the things Philip's said about family and how he was raised to think about it (as opposed to Elizabeth who was explicitly raised to believe family should be sacrificed along with everything else), if another contrast was that it showed the advantages to prioritizing family. Or the difference between the parent who always presents as strong and all-knowing vs. the kid who grows up to see the parent as human and flawed.

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Because she's not spying on the State Department guy there, she's spying on Gorbachev's guy. She can't tell anyone about that and needs to do it herself to know what she's listening for.

It took me a couple of days after watching the show until that penny dropped for me. It was an "Oh, that's why she's interested in the guy wanting to go to a ballgame" moment.

And kind of unrelated, but not. Stephen Colbert did a bit with a teacup on his show before we watched The Americans (we didn't watch it until the next night, I think). I can't quite remember how it went, but he was holding up a picture of a teacup that had been glued back together and said something like "how long will it take you to admit that you are the teacup and you're broken" So when I saw the title of this episode, I thought immediately of Elizabeth and Philip, and was somewhat disappointed it was the other soviet couple.  (apologies to any who saw that bit - I'm sure I really mucked it up)

Edited April 23, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Erin9]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That made me think about something about this ep--I hesitate to post about it like an actual thing because I'm not predicting the show is going this way, but this made me think of it.

They've set up this split between Elizabeth/Paige and Philip/Henry--though as we see in this ep Philip hasn't given Paige up. There's several ways to contrast the two pairs--male/female, America/Russia, spies/civilians etc. But it also struck me that for all the many scenes devoted to mother and daughter both with and without Claudia, Paige isn't providing emotional support for Elizabeth any more than anyone else is. She doesn't know about the secret mission, hasn't noticed her mother's emotional state. Elizabeth is mostly just curating Paige's experience as carefully as she can. Paige is focused on herself almost exclusively. The one time she focused on Elizabeth was when she ran into a crime scene, which was bad. (And even that is possibly a child's impulsive fear of being left alone.)

With Philip, they didn't go with the cliche of the father who hides his financial troubles etc. (in fact that's what Elizabeth's doing), Philip comes clean about his fuck up and a couple weeks ago he and Henry had the "you sound like you're going to jump out a window" convo. We don't know how Henry's going to react to the news. Maybe we won't even see him this week. Maybe he'll now be angry and resentful or snobbish to his father. Maybe he'll just solve his own problem by getting a scholarship and not care about Philip's issues beyond that. We don't know.

But it would be interesting given the things Philip's said about family and how he was raised to think about it (as opposed to Elizabeth who was explicitly raised to believe family should be sacrificed along with everything else), if another contrast was that it showed the advantages to prioritizing family. Or the difference between the parent who always presents as strong and all-knowing vs. the kid who grows up to see the parent as human and flawed.

I would like to see the advantages of prioritizing family play out somehow. Philip has always been right about that. But we’ve never seen anything done with that, that I can recall. 

I think you have a good point about how each parent presents themselves. Paige is under the false impression that Elizabeth is superwoman and superior to Philip imo because she didn’t quit. And because she isn’t being real with Paige now about her mental and physical state. Truth is- Elizabeth SHOULD take a step back. But Paige sees her mom as something she isn’t. 

Meanwhile Philip has been real about things- burnout, finances. That should serve both his kids well in the future. Because one way or another all kids eventually find out how human their parents are. And it teaches them to be real and honest with others too.  Truth is both Henry and Paige know Philip better than they know Elizabeth. She’s presenting an illusion  to them. Even though Henry is still in the dark, I still argue in some ways he knows Philip better than Paige knows Elizabeth. 

Knowing when to take a time out is important too. Philip may not have quit with the idea of ever returning, but he’s in much better mental shape now than Elizabeth is.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

39 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I would like to see the advantages of prioritizing family play out somehow. Philip has always been right about that. But we’ve never seen anything done with that, that I can recall. 

That's what I was thinking as I wrote it too, that the show never really goes there. That's another side effect to having Henry so sidelined because Elizabeth has always dominated the Paige stuff even though Philip was part of it. Philip's prioritizing family really never goes anywhere and Elizabeth wound up winning all those battles anyway--Paige is hers and Henry left home at 13 after having no scenes. It's almost like early on they acknowledged that Elizabeth didn't really get how to interact with Henry so Henry had to be off-screen. (Although I will always love that moment when Elizabeth comes home a little drunk and happy from Young-Hee's and she says she was at a friend's and Henry snarks, "You have friends?" like he knows she doesn't.)

I guess this season could be the one time, given that Elizabeth is so dead to the world now and seems to have no relationship with the younger child, not even fighting for him. But I can't honestly be sure I'm not supposed to see Paige and Elizabeth as actually having a good relationship here and so do Henry and Philip but theirs isn't important. He'll still just check in for a single scene an episode like he did last season when he's needed for plot beats regarding prep school.

47 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

And because she isn’t being real with Paige now about her mental and physical state.

And so many other things too. Everything she's teaching Paige is basically that it's all about doing this job. People and relationships only matter with regards to it. Even the country your fighting for--your "home"--is just a question of choosing "the best" one (Elizabeth's) and then becoming mildly familiar with some things it's produced. You don't even have to know or like any people there!

[GingerMarie]

17 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

It took me a couple of days after watching the show until that penny dropped for me. It was an "Oh, that's why she's interested in the guy wanting to go to a ballgame" moment.

And kind of unrelated, but not. Stephen Colbert did a bit with a teacup on his show before we watched The Americans (we didn't watch it until the next night, I think). I can't quite remember how it went, but he was holding up a picture of a teacup that had been glued back together and said something like "how long will it take you to admit that you are the teacup and you're broken" So when I saw the title of this episode, I thought immediately of Elizabeth and Philip, and was somewhat disappointed it was the other soviet couple.  (apologies to any who saw that bit - I'm sure I really mucked it up)

Clanstarling, excellent observation.  It could very well be Elizabeth and Philip as Mr. and Mrs. Teacup.  

[LisaM]

On 4/19/2018 at 11:02 AM, rlc said:

Call me Kreskin, but I’m thinking this isn’t going to end well for anyone.

I hope that the Mail Robot survives! 

[Bannon]

24 minutes ago, LisaM said:

I hope that the Mail Robot survives! 

Nah, Elizabeth will no doubt kill it.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, LisaM said:

I hope that the Mail Robot survives! 

 

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Nah, Elizabeth will no doubt kill it.

At least Mail Robot will have a solid submission for the Emmys...fingers crossed.

[Joe Hellandback]

Ok, watching in the UK so pretty behind the times but hoping to catch up.

1. The scene with Elizabeth's break in was so dark I thought there was something wrong with the TV! Hadn't a clue what was going on.

2. Little Paige growing up fast, developing her own sources and using the old honeytrap to do so, her mother must be so proud. 

3. A little puzzled by Philip's financial problems, he and Elizabeth are such badass operators couldn't they just rob a bank? Love Elizabeth's attitude to Henry, not exactly the mother of the year!

4. Anyone else think that Kimmie is giving Philip the old heave-ho? Her going away for the holidays instead of staying with her family an analogy and hint that maybe she doesn't need him anymore? 

So the battle line are drawn, will the marriage survive Glasnost? And which side will the kids be on?

[Inquisitionist]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

3. A little puzzled by Philip's financial problems, he and Elizabeth are such badass operators couldn't they just rob a bank? Love Elizabeth's attitude to Henry, not exactly the mother of the year!

I don't think Philip left the KGB to become Butch Cassidy.  ;-)  He seems to want to "make it" as an American, playing by the same rules by which he see other Americans becoming successful.

[Joe Hellandback]

10 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

I don't think Philip left the KGB to become Butch Cassidy.  ;-)  He seems to want to "make it" as an American, playing by the same rules by which he see other Americans becoming successful.

Good point but if he wasn't off spying all the time I'm sure his business would be a lot more successful.

[Inquisitionist]

6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Good point but if he wasn't off spying all the time I'm sure his business would be a lot more successful.

The current business slump doesn't seem to be related, though, to spy-related distractions on Philip's part.  He seems to have made a common small business error of trying to grow too fast.  

[Clanstarling]

5 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

The current business slump doesn't seem to be related, though, to spy-related distractions on Philip's part.  He seems to have made a common small business error of trying to grow too fast.  

Medium sized ones do it too - having been laid off by precisely that scenario. They decided they were ready to be a major player...and they weren't.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

20 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

I don't think Philip left the KGB to become Butch Cassidy.  ;-)  He seems to want to "make it" as an American, playing by the same rules by which he see other Americans becoming successful.

I don't think he left spying for that either. It's more like that's what he had in his life so he tried to make a go of that by the same rules others become successful. What he really wanted to do, as he's made clear this season, is use his skills to do something good in the world.  That seems important because while Philip is having money troubles they seem to have more led him to the conclusion that it's not worth the trouble.

[Token]

OMG, the look on Elizabeth's face when Phillip told her about his conversation with Henry and not having money for boarding school!  When she said "Really?", I honestly expected her next sentence to be "Who's Henry?"  The look of puzzlement on her face was hilarious.  She really just does not GAF about her own son.

The show really made a mistake with the actress they chose for Paige.  She's always looked skinny and tiny, but it was vaguely believable when she was younger.  But she does not look like a woman in her early 20s.  She still looks like a 12 year old.  Seeing her walking around, when supposedly on the job, she looks like a child playing dress up.

[RedHawk]

Wow, CNN news is reporting about Russian diplomats who were recently expelled from the U.S. and how some of them may have been KGB agents spying on and trying to locate Russians who had defected. They even mentioned defectors who the CIA had helped go into hiding. Then they showed a clip from the show! It was when Claudia told Elizabeth about the Russian couple and little boy who had defected and gave her the order to track him down. CNN had an expert who, as many on these boards have said, explained that the KGB agents -- who were allegedly here in the U.S. posing as diplomats -- would not have been the ones to "take out" the defectors. That would have been a job for others. Amazing how the show has become more and more relevant as the seasons passed. 

[qtpye]

On 4/28/2018 at 6:07 PM, Token said:

OMG, the look on Elizabeth's face when Phillip told her about his conversation with Henry and not having money for boarding school!  When she said "Really?", I honestly expected her next sentence to be "Who's Henry?"  The look of puzzlement on her face was hilarious.  She really just does not GAF about her own son.

The show really made a mistake with the actress they chose for Paige.  She's always looked skinny and tiny, but it was vaguely believable when she was younger.  But she does not look like a woman in her early 20s.  She still looks like a 12 year old.  Seeing her walking around, when supposedly on the job, she looks like a child playing dress up.

Yeah, usually with child actors, they try to hire very juvenile looking adults, so they do not have to deal with educational and labor law requirements (see the whole cast of 90210. However, with the actress who plays Paige, it is not simply because she is short and skinny. Sara Michelle Geller was short and skinny and most people thought she kicked ass as Buffy. As other very astute posters on this board have pointed out she just lacks "presence". I would imagine her spy superpower would actually be a little like Sue from The Middle, in that she could probably blend into the wallpaper. However, this is not the case in the show, where we see guys have been hitting on her all the time and they have been perving on her from a young age, so she can not just blend in and be invisible.

[Sweet-tea]

On 4/18/2018 at 11:12 PM, suomi said:

I could watch a whole hour of Philip line dancing because he is so joyously "in the moment."

Me too! He looks so happy!

[John Potts]

I see Elizabeth got her killings out of the way at the start of the episode. If she's over quota after this episode, does that mean she can go a future episode without any?

So nice to see Philip actually happy. Will he still be line dancing if the agency goes tits up?

On ‎19‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 4:56 AM, sistermagpie said:

There's Paige explaining "the world" to Philip about how sometimes Generals just shoot themselves in the face during meetings with Soviet agents in parks and need two shots to do it and Mom totally tried to stop him!

Given that Paige found her mother with bits of his skull spattered over her face, it seems they're making Paige really dumb and/or naïve to believe her mother's tale. But I'm not so sure it wouldn't be ruled a suicide. The guy was unhappy with the way the government seemed to "want" a nuclear war (that's what Elizabeth was using to leverage him with), was probably looking stressed in the last few days (we know it's because Elizabeth approached him: they don't) and ballistics will show he was shot with his own gun. Signs of a struggle? He fell after shooting himself. The only thing that might cause them to question it is that two shots were fired (which is pretty suspicious). The trouble is, on TV, criminals are usually portrayed as genius masterminds who craft elaborate schemes to cover their crimes: in reality, they're mostly pretty dumb, boasting about their crimes on Facebook and whose idea of clean up is to put their bloody shirt in the laundry!

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 8:52 PM, Umbelina said:

in Washington, knowing an intern could get you introduced to their Senator very easily.  A get together with dates, etc.  The other thing I'll say is that the power players in Washington, yes, even back then?  Were an incredibly horny bunch of men.

Moreso, if anything. The main difference between then and now would be the deference shown by the media. Plenty of people knew about JFK screwing around, but it was felt to be too damaging to the Presidency to report it. On the flip side, people actually felt compelled to resign over such scandals then. Now? Not so much.

On ‎21‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 7:11 PM, GingerMarie said:

Elizabeth and Philip will start working together again.  They love their kids but above all they love each other and more than ever need each other.

I'm betting the other way: they're involved with different KGB factions and will end up killing each other.

On ‎21‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 7:13 AM, Darrenbrett said:

Elizabeth is not only serving as nurse to the guy she's trying to gather intel on, but in addition she's also (twice now) watched him (from VERY close by) with just a different wig on. I mean, come on. Wigs help disguise someone. But the guy's seen Elizabeth up close a hundred times now.

People can be amazingly unobservant. There's a famous trick where a receptionist is talking to somebody as a couple of people carrying a board walk between them. While she's concealed, the receptionist switches with another woman, hidden under the desk. Very few people notice, despite talking directly to her (well, them).

[Clanstarling]

49 minutes ago, John Potts said:

People can be amazingly unobservant. There's a famous trick where a receptionist is talking to somebody as a couple of people carrying a board walk between them. While she's concealed, the receptionist switches with another woman, hidden under the desk. Very few people notice, despite talking directly to her (well, them).

I never remember my waiter/waitress after I give them an order. It's terrible, but I'm focused on the menu, I guess.

[snarktini]

I've been wondering about E's smoking, one more piece of her burnout and increasing recklessness. If it's as bad as P said -- "you always smells like cigarettes" -- wouldn't that be a risk to her covers and her stealthiness? You wouldn't want to smell like anything distinctive that follows you from cover to cover. And cigarette smoke in particular is tenacious stuff, hard to scrub off. (Ugh, kissing a smoker.) Olfactory associations are powerful. People remember things like that.

[qtpye]

7 hours ago, snarktini said:

I've been wondering about E's smoking, one more piece of her burnout and increasing recklessness. If it's as bad as P said -- "you always smells like cigarettes" -- wouldn't that be a risk to her covers and her stealthiness? You wouldn't want to smell like anything distinctive that follows you from cover to cover. And cigarette smoke in particular is tenacious stuff, hard to scrub off. (Ugh, kissing a smoker.) Olfactory associations are powerful. People remember things like that.

You would think the smell might make the cancer sufferer nauseous.

[Umbelina]

That's a good point though, smoking could give her away somehow, but with only 4 episodes left?  Doubtful.

[skippylou]

Let's remember that in the 80's smoking and its scent was not the mark of Cain.  You could smoke on airlines and carry a knife.  Smoke free zones were the exception, not the rule.  Many health care workers smoked.

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, skippylou said:

Let's remember that in the 80's smoking and its scent was not the mark of Cain.  You could smoke on airlines and carry a knife.  Smoke free zones were the exception, not the rule.  Many health care workers smoked.

Not the mark of Cain, but just as noticeable, especially to non-smokers.

[Clanstarling]

14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Not the mark of Cain, but just as noticeable, especially to non-smokers.

I remember being at an airport in Kentucky in 2000. There was a smoker's lounge to the right of the waiting area. I wondered why I could still smell smoke - and then realized that the glassed-in lounge was only partially glassed-in. There were 2 foot gaps at both the top and the bottom. They followed, perhaps, the letter of the law, but certainly not the spirit. Of course, if I recall correctly, it is tobacco country.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, skippylou said:

Let's remember that in the 80's smoking and its scent was not the mark of Cain.  You could smoke on airlines and carry a knife.  Smoke free zones were the exception, not the rule.  Many health care workers smoked.

Stan also looked at her cigarettes closely.  If she tosses one of those away on an operation, which we've seen her do several times this season?  That could also be, at least a clue, he's on the right track.  Not definitive proof of course, but still, another hole in the wall.

[RedHawk]

On 4/23/2018 at 3:08 PM, Umbelina said:

Philip didn't "start up" anything.  The KGB gave it to him like a present, along with his house, clothing, car, furniture, etc. etc. etc.  All Philip had to do was keep it afloat.

They didn't walk into the Dupont Circle (in DC, not Virginia) Travel Agency cold, nor were they given their house, clothing, furniture, etc. In flashbacks we saw them in a small, cheap motel room soon after they arrived in the DC area. We don't know what their setup was at that point, but I've felt sure they did not move into their current house the next day and find a car in the garage with directions to the travel agency they suddenly owned. (For one thing, that house didn't exist in 1964.) There is some backstory there about building their lives and business that we haven't seen and at this point I'm ok with that. The goal was to blend in so I imagine they started small, maybe working at a travel agency to learn the business and then buying their own business or buying the one they worked in. The KGB/Centre surely had a larger role early on in setting them up but over time they were expected to and did become more autonomous so as to live their cover lives and make them believable. The Centre still provides support for their missions. We're never going to get it all spelled out so the sudden lack of finances for Henry's school is a plot device I don't quite like but am willing to accept. 

[RedHawk]

On 4/28/2018 at 6:07 PM, Token said:

OMG, the look on Elizabeth's face when Phillip told her about his conversation with Henry and not having money for boarding school!  When she said "Really?", I honestly expected her next sentence to be "Who's Henry?"  The look of puzzlement on her face was hilarious.  She really just does not GAF about her own son.

The show really made a mistake with the actress they chose for Paige.  She's always looked skinny and tiny, but it was vaguely believable when she was younger.  But she does not look like a woman in her early 20s.  She still looks like a 12 year old.  Seeing her walking around, when supposedly on the job, she looks like a child playing dress up.

A few times this season I've seen Paige looking very much like her actual age and thought it works much better for the actress that she's now playing a young woman who is around 20 years old. Unfortunately, she's a whisp and that makes it harder to believe that she's now tough and capable after three years of spy training. Indeed, she often looks ridiculous in her "disguises", with much the same scared-bunny face she used to make when she had to cross the scary food bank parking lot.

[Umbelina]

9 hours ago, RedHawk said:

They didn't walk into the Dupont Circle (in DC, not Virginia) Travel Agency cold, nor were they given their house, clothing, furniture, etc. In flashbacks we saw them in a small, cheap motel room soon after they arrived in the DC area. We don't know what their setup was at that point, but I've felt sure they did not move into their current house the next day and find a car in the garage with directions to the travel agency they suddenly owned. (For one thing, that house didn't exist in 1964.) There is some backstory there about building their lives and business that we haven't seen and at this point I'm ok with that. The goal was to blend in so I imagine they started small, maybe working at a travel agency to learn the business and then buying their own business or buying the one they worked in. The KGB/Centre surely had a larger role early on in setting them up but over time they were expected to and did become more autonomous so as to live their cover lives and make them believable. The Centre still provides support for their missions. We're never going to get it all spelled out so the sudden lack of finances for Henry's school is a plot device I don't quite like but am willing to accept. 

There is no chance they "worked" for a travel agency first.  They couldn't constantly call in sick, or leave in the middle of the day when they had a KGB job.  They had to own their own business.

That said, I'm sure the KGB created a whole legend and false backstory for them, about how they had their money, other jobs they'd supposedly had, all of that.  They may have had a different house in the beginning as well.  (A fake sold house by them in some other state, which gave them money, inheritance, back (fake) pay stubs and bank accounts, etc.)

The CIA, KGB, FBI, MI5/6 all of those agencies are incredible at creating paper  trails and back stories.  There are entire divisions that do nothing BUT that, including planting fake documents in schools etc.

My point was, they KGB fronted all of that, their money, clothes, house, business.  Philip didn't build it, and neither did Elizabeth. 

I wish I could link sources for you, here, but they are all in the Real Spy thread here, so if you sift through that, the links and information about how that works are there.

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

That said, I'm sure the KGB created a whole legend and false backstory for them, about how they had their money, other jobs they'd supposedly had, all of that.  They may have had a different house in the beginning as well.  (A fake sold house by them in some other state, which gave them money, inheritance, back (fake) pay stubs and bank accounts, etc.)

We saw them living in an apartment when the decided to start trying for a baby, so it seemed like they were following the familiar pattern of moving from an apartment to the suburbs as they got more successful or whatever. Maybe their story was that they had whatever jobs and then decided to buy a travel agency or something.

[Erin9]

In doing a little re- watching- Philip has such an interesting tone when Kimmy says he’s stuck. His “ I am? “ is just loaded. I’m not sure yet if he’s impressed she’s noticed, realizing she’s right.....some of both.

I still love Philip talking about “wanting to use his powers for good” and that he was ”working on” gettting out of his rut. He was. He wound up blowing the Kimmie op up for good for her safety. Got everything Arkady and Oleg wanted. All the details. Nicely done.

Realistically- I think the only way he’d get everything is more or less the way he did- tell Elizabeth, get her to listen, and get the rest of the info through her getting it. That wasn’t the only reason he told her the truth- but it was effective. 

I really do love Philip and Oleg. A shame we only got 2 scenes. They were so alike. Able to embrace change. Could see the US wasn’t crazy.  Burned out on spying, but willing to jump in for their country and world and risk it all. 

I bet Paige is re-playing what Philip tried to get her to see about the general now. Philip’s tone when he told Paige not to explain “the world” to him is priceless. Seriously, girl?! He’s so fed up with both of them at this point.  He did try to tell her. She just wasn’t ready to hear it or see it, I guess. Willfully ignorant. 

And- I think Elizabeth realized nothing got lost regarding Philip. 

Paige saying she’s “into” spying really says all you need to know about her understanding of it. Like- none. 

Philip getting Elizabeth to admit she’d put Paige’s life in danger.....and his scoffing that it wouldn’t happen again. Awesome. I would have liked to have seen more done with Philip’s many issues with Paige spying. But- they used the time elsewhere. Too bad. Paige and Philip, what little we got, were truly great scenes.  Some of the top ones of the season. 

it’s interesting- you’d have thought she’d have gotten Elizabeth’s point when she said to date a guy she likes, go after a source for info when you’re ready, but DON’T mix the two. Guess she didn’t get the sex aspect of it or something. 

Oh Look- Stan and Philip had a nice talk. Something I skipped over the first time because I was so focused on the capitalism part of the discussion was Stan talking about giving girl advice to Matthew. Philip asking if he’d listened. Their knowing responses/looks about the kids listening to them was funny. Of course not.  Two dads bonding over their kids who think they know it all. And timely- given that  Philip had just finished trying to get Paige to listen. Bet that’s the kind of thing they’ll both miss, though Philip couldn’t explain his Paige problem. They understood each other just fine there. 

Philip talking about all the pressure to grow reminds of what someone once said to me in an interview- if you’re not growing you’re dying. While Philip wasn’t ready to be explicit about his money problems to Stan, he did start picking Stan’s brain about money and business.  He was going to him as a friend.

In light of how they neglected their relationship in S5, they did give them a few solid scenes mixed with family dinner scenes this season hi lighting their friendship- before Stan got overly suspicious. 

This is on my list of great Philip episodes. Oh- and Henry called Philip just to chat. It wasn’t all dad calling son. Yep- he’ll miss it. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Philip getting Elizabeth to admit she’d put Paige’s life in danger.....and his scoffing that it wouldn’t happen again. Awesome. I would have liked to have seen more done with Philip’s many issues with Paige spying. But- they used the time elsewhere. Too bad. Paige and Philip, what little we got, were truly great scenes.  Some of the top ones of the season. 

 

Thinking of this in the context of also talking about Philip/Stan I always remember one of the few conversations they had where Philip was going to Stan to talk was when he was saying that if you could get the kid away from the other parent, sometimes it helped. In S5 Elizabeth is the one who's gotten Paige to herself--she's not keeping her from Philip, exactly, but their spying obviously does force one on one time. It's obviously working since Paige is repeating back Elizabeth's ridiculous stories about the General as if Philip's just a little slow. 

The scene where he does potentially make an impression on her is when he just goes over himself and uses the time well, to say the least. 

Trying to look back at Paige, maybe it's almost impossible to underestimate how completely lost she is this whole season despite them touting how she was "more confident" now. She confident because she was nuts. She thinks she's independent because she's got her own apartment and she can sleep with guys but she's following her mom around like a duckling and accepting obvious lies. Elizabeth's at fault for lying to her but Paige is doing *a lot* of work to believe the lies as well. Henry's ready to start giving support back to his father but Paige is still depending on her mother to give her direction and--although Paige doesn't realize it--to protect her from a lot of harsh realities of life. I think the Henry scenes also show that Henry knows Philip (ironically!) better than he knows Stan and vice versa. Which shouldn't even have to be said but here we are. 

[Umbelina]

On 6/5/2018 at 9:22 PM, Erin9 said:

I really do love Philip and Oleg. A shame we only got 2 scenes. They were so alike. Able to embrace change. Could see the US wasn’t crazy.  Burned out on spying, but willing to jump in for their country and world and risk it all. 

It's hard to imagine any character with Oleg that didn't shine bright with him.  Nina, Tatiana, Arkady, Stan, Philip...maybe not so much in his Russia scenes, but I think that's mostly because I had to take my eyes off him to read screen caps.  He's one of those serious, attentive actors that has chemistry with everyone, you can see him actually listening to the other actors, never just waiting for his turn to speak.  He's amazing.

On 6/6/2018 at 9:34 AM, sistermagpie said:

Trying to look back at Paige, maybe it's almost impossible to underestimate how completely lost she is this whole season despite them touting how she was "more confident" now. She confident because she was nuts. She thinks she's independent because she's got her own apartment and she can sleep with guys but she's following her mom around like a duckling and accepting obvious lies.

Yes, an apartment and college her parents are paying for.  SO "independent!"  Honestly I can't stand her, no wonder most of the time she was on screen, far too often by the way, it took me completely out of the show and into criticism.  Oddly enough, in interviews, the actress was so much like Paige.  She actually did say "I'm going to be a spy!  That's SO COOL!" in response to a reporter's question.  It's so close to "I'm into it" with her dad.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, an apartment and college her parents are paying for.  SO "independent!"  Honestly I can't stand her, no wonder most of the time she was on screen, far too often by the way, it took me completely out of the show and into criticism.  Oddly enough, in interviews, the actress was so much like Paige.  She actually did say "I'm going to be a spy!  That's SO COOL!" in response to a reporter's question.  It's so close to "I'm into it" with her dad.

Answering in the Paige thread to bring up other eps...

[Roseanna]

On ‎19‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 6:45 AM, Erin9 said:

Loved Erica saying she regretted focusing on her art over her husband. In the end, what she left behind didn't matter. The time with him did. That should resonate with Elizabeth, on some level. 

I disagree with Erica. If her art has given something valuable to other people and continues to do so after her death, why wouldn't it matter? As her husband has an important job, their relationship wouldn hardly have been better if Erica had only waited for him to have time with her.

It's not Elizabeth's commitment to do her part for the world that is wrong, it's her method caused her ideological blindness that doesn't make the world better but worse.

[Roseanna]

On ‎19‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 6:29 AM, chocolatine said:

Philip: "We may not be able to pay Henry's tuition next year."

Elizabeth: "Well, he's your department."

Don't get too invested in your son's life now, Liz!

It's two different things to be interested in your child's life and to worry about money for his/her school. About the latter, Elizabeth is quite right that it's Philip's responsibility to arrange it as he now leads the travel agency alone. Elizabeth has no time and energy for it and even if she did and succeeded, it would show Philip incompent - wouldn't he really like that?  

On ‎19‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 7:03 AM, tennisgurl said:

It really makes the conversation Philip and Elizabeth had about how Elizabeth is upset about the future of her country, while Philip reminds her that she really has no idea what the average people back home think, as she hasn't talked to anyone from home in over twenty years, except for people they needed to spy on or contact for work.

It doesn't matter what "average Soviet people" think as they still had no power whatsoever. It's the Comminist party that matters and as a Communist, Elizabeth should accept what the leader of the party, Gorbatchov, has decided, not to work against him.

[Roseanna]

On ‎19‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 6:09 AM, zibnchy said:

Paige is honeytrapping now? So Paige never gets to have any semblance of a normal life. She can't even meet a cute boy normally.

 

On ‎19‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 6:45 AM, Erin9 said:

Paige's listening skills are great. She did exactly what Elizabeth said not to do- honeytrapping. Paige certainly does not learn from her mistakes- she does not listen. Again. 

I remember Elizabeth's advice to Lucia: that she should act like a girl-friend with her Congress aide.

What benefit does Paige think that she can get by sleeping the quy straight away? Is she really so good at sex that he can't live without her, and not to move on as there is probably many girls available in D.C.?

Even if the relationship continues, Paige lacks P&E's training and intimacy can make her careless. She isn't a good lier.     

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It's two different things to be interested in your child's life and to worry about money for his/her school. About the latter, Elizabeth is quite right that it's Philip's responsibility to arrange it as he now leads the travel agency alone. Elizabeth has no time and energy for it and even if she did and succeeded, it would show Philip incompent - wouldn't he really like that?  

On 4/19/2018 at 12:03 AM, tennisgurl said:

I don't think anyone was saying she should care about the money--Philip wasn't asking her for help there either. The line was shocking because she wasn't showing any interest in Henry's life. "He's your department" wasn't a reference to the money, it was a reference to everything Henry, including any upheavals in his life or disappointment or emotional fallout from having to leave school. 

For instance, if Elizabeth told Philip Paige was asking about honeytrapping Philip would never just consider that Elizabeth's department.

Edited October 15, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

On ‎15‎.‎10‎.‎2018 at 11:23 PM, sistermagpie said:

I don't think anyone was saying she should care about the money--Philip wasn't asking her for help there either. The line was shocking because she wasn't showing any interest in Henry's life. "He's your department" wasn't a reference to the money, it was a reference to everything Henry, including any upheavals in his life or disappointment or emotional fallout from having to leave school. 

You may be right from the American perspective. 

However, Elizabeth isn't an American and lacks the habit to say things swiftly and automatically only because it's civil to say them. Just because a person says something, doesn't mean that she really means it.  

The scene happened in the middle of the night, Elizabeth was dead tired and (most importantly) Henry wasn't present, so her words could have showed rather that she was disappointed that Philip had failed to handle things that he had promised to do. 

All in all, I think it's decisive how Elizabeth behaves with Henry. If there are no scenes between them, the writers have given Elizabeth the role of the traditional father concentrating only on the work whereas Philip has been given the role of the traditional mother who is the nurturer inside the family.

I think it's a real pity that the time jump wasn't already made before the previous season because now we totally lack information how Elizabeth has reacted to f.ex. Chernobyl disaster and the things that during glasnost were revealed by the Soviets themselves. Of course Elizabeth has always hardened in the time of crisis but now she seems to be only hard which isn't as interesting as a person who has to fight also inside herself.

Elizabeth's rigorous orthodoxy can also show that she isn't at all sure but is afraid that if she starts to think herself, instead of following orders, she loses the purpose that has made her life meaningful and the sacrifices she has made had been in vain.

I think that, however happy and relaxed Philip seems in linedancing, his failure in business shows that he also longs for work that isn't done just for earning more money but has a deeper meaning.