Season 1-5 Discussion

[sugarbaker design]

2 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

As with every season of "Unforgotten" . . . it's all starting to come together.

Right?  So Lord Hume is Precious's daddy, and therefore Jay's (and Joe's) granddaddy.  Karol is turning out to be a real sleaze.  With the addition of Joe Bell's remains the plot thickens rather than dilutes.

I am loving the supporting actors playing Kaz, Fran and Murray.  They really bring the mundane fact-checking aspects of the case alive.  I loved James telling Kaz what she uncovered was gold.

[AZChristian]

1 hour ago, sugarbaker design said:

Right?  So Lord Hume is Precious's daddy, and therefore Jay's (and Joe's) granddaddy.  Karol is turning out to be a real sleaze.  With the addition of Joe Bell's remains the plot thickens rather than dilutes.

I am loving the supporting actors playing Kaz, Fran and Murray.  They really bring the mundane fact-checking aspects of the case alive.  I loved James telling Kaz what she uncovered was gold.

I think Lord Hume is EBELE'S father - Precious' grandfather.  About 26 minutes into the episode, Kaz tells Jess and Sunni that Ebele walked into the place where Lord Hume worked, waving an air pistol.  And then they later tracked down the security guard at the end of the episode, and he said that he'd changed his story after being threatened by a director of the company (Lord Hume's father), and therefore did not testify that the woman was shouting, "I want to talk to my dad.  I want to talk to Tony Bloody Hume."  The security guard's behavior seemed to indicate he knew the day might come when this might all become known, and he wasn't sorry to finally be able to tell the truth.

I think Tony may not have known about her - or his granddaughter, Precious - until then.  That seems to be when he changed his political stance and started to encourage more handouts to social programs that would benefit Ebele, Precious, and his descendants from them.  Joseph and Jay are Tony's great-grandsons.  

[Mermaid Under]

Quote

As with every season of "Unforgotten" . . . it's all starting to come together.

It is looking like Karol is a sleeze, but less likely he had anything to do with the death(s).

And Joe/Jay drug addict has been telling the truth all along, except for who he is.  His name is Jay, not Joseph, and he likely never was violent with his mother or grandmother. 

[AZChristian]

Just now, Mermaid Under said:

It is looking like Karol is a sleeze, but less likely he had anything to do with the death(s).

Based on the fact that the "Karol pictures" folder and the hotmail address were created on Karol's laptop while Precious had it, I'm not sure that Karol is a sleeze.  I think he was being framed by Precious, probably for money since she was threatening to send the pictures to his boss.

[sugarbaker design]

12 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

About 26 minutes into the episode, Kaz tells Jess and Sunni that Ebele walked into the place where Lord Hume worked, waving an air pistol. 

I thought Kaz said Precious walked into the place where Lord Hume worked, waving an air pistol.

Edited to add:  I stand corrected, it was Ebele.  Apologies.

Edited October 2, 2023 by sugarbaker design

[MaryHedwig]

36 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

The security guard's behavior seemed to indicate he knew the day might come when this might all become known, and he wasn't sorry to finally be able to tell the truth.

 

I think that is the powerful theme of the entire Unforgotten series. Our deeds, though they may be hidden are still festering, still controlling us, still ready to come out and reveal themselves, and provide healing in doing so.

 

"Therefore, whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops." Luke 12:3

[susannot]

1 hour ago, sugarbaker design said:

I thought Kaz said Precious walked into the place where Lord Hume worked, waving an air pistol.

Edited to add:  I stand corrected, it was Ebele.  Apologies.

Yes, it was Ebele.  So who was her mother?

[AZChristian]

54 minutes ago, susannot said:

Yes, it was Ebele.  So who was her mother?

I don't know if we'll ever know that.  Sounds like Lord Hume was waving his "assets" to many women - willing or not.

[12catcrazy]

8 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

I don't know if we'll ever know that.  Sounds like Lord Hume was waving his "assets" to many women - willing or not.

So now I'm totally confused.  I figured on Lord Hume being Precious' father, not Ebele's.  We haven't been told anything about Ebele's mother and what also confuses me is that Ebele (to my ears) sounds as if she has an accent that isn't from England.  I assumed that her people were from some former British colony and migrated to Britain when she was a child.   

And what is the deal with the dead "other" son?  Its an odd thing to throw into the mix this late in the episode game.  

[Daff]

1 hour ago, susannot said:

Yes, it was Ebele.  So who was her mother?

The woman that Hume’s coworker saw him with when he was out for a run. Implying infidelities.

Ebele sounds as if her mother was from Jamaica.

[Mermaid Under]

This is what I believe they have established.

• Ebele was Hume’s daughter, and her daughter Precious was Hume’s granddaughter. Ebele’s mothers name, and what has happened to her is not mentioned.
• Ebele said (when she was confessing to the long-suffering partner) that she had gotten pregnant with Precious in her teens, like her mother did with her. Precious's father is not mentioned.
• Precious apparently had two children, Joseph (with Bell, the religious leader) and Jay (with some man named Royce). Both boys are Hume’s great grandsons, and both of their fathers are dead. No one seemed to know about Jay, and he has been passing himself off as Joseph.
• The police established that Mehdi (who was probably thrilled to tell the police what he knew) saw Lord Hume arguing with Precious, his granddaughter, who they assumed was looking for her share of granddad’s pie.

What is unclear to me is where the two ongoing payments identified by the bank as coming from Hume were going to, and why. One was to Ebele – was the other to her Ebele’s mother or to Precious? Or was the other payment to Jay (although when they "met" Hume seemed to believe Jay was Joseph). 

And Hayley Mills has been completely underused.  Other than shutting her husband down when he was trying to confess to her what she probably already suspected.

[Daff]

16 minutes ago, Mermaid Under said:

saw Lord Hume arguing with Precious,

I didn’t catch a time reference, especially as they were talking about Hume’s attitude change re social issues, so I assumed he saw Hume with Ebele’s mother. Could be your version as well..

[susannot]

I thought it had been stated that Precious's father was the former cult leader David Bell.

[Mermaid Under]

Quote

I thought it had been stated that Precious's father was the former cult leader David Bell.

No, in one of her first statements to police, Ebele said that Precious initially ran away (or later said she was kidnapped) to David Bell's cult at 14 or 15.  Ebele wasn't a part of the cult, but because she had her own problems, didn't try and get Precious out of it.  It was assumed that Joseph was Bell's son (the police man visiting the compound in the most recent episode mentioned that Bell was 42 and Precious was 14)

I think the fact that Ebele's mother, Ebele, and Precious all had children in their early teens is confusing to the timeline.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Mermaid Under

[susannot]

Ah thanks MermaidUnder.  I appreciate your very clear explanations.

[Driad]

Where are the family tree charts when we need them?

[magdalene]

Good thing next episode seems to be the resolution of this case, yes?   When it turned out that Joe isn't Joe but his half-brother I reached ultimate state of muddled-ness in my head and went "whaaaat". I am a bit more clearer reading this thread, thank you!

So much generational abuse and abject misery because his lordship couldn't keep it in his pants.

The cheating husband is truly pathetic, hiding out like this.  And she is going have to be civil to the louse for the sake of their sons.

[sugarbaker design]

6 hours ago, magdalene said:

So much generational abuse and abject misery because his lordship couldn't keep it in his pants.

Remember the mom of the young man that his Lordship wanted to help financially?  How she declined his help because of his voting record?His Lordship has a history of defunding programs that may have helped the women he was screwing.  He doubly screwed them.

[Rickster]

15 hours ago, Mermaid Under said:

What is unclear to me is where the two ongoing payments identified by the bank as coming from Hume were going to, and why. One was to Ebele – was the other to her Ebele’s mother or to Precious? Or was the other payment to Jay (although when they "met" Hume seemed to believe Jay was Joseph). 

 

I might be confused or misunderstood, but I thought the bank told Hume about having to reveal “the two accounts established in the late 80’s”. So too early to be going to Joseph or Jay.

[Mermaid Under]

Parts of this story remind me of the child of US Senator Strom Thurmond - minus the murders and drugs.

[laredhead]

I think one or 2 less characters would have made this season little less confusing.  I'm watching it each week on PBS as it plays out one episode at a time.  By the time the next one airs 7 days later, I've forgotten some of the plot and the characters relationship to the story.  This is one I will have to binge watch in a couple of months to keep things fresh in my mind.   

[sugarbaker design]

17 minutes ago, laredhead said:

I think one or 2 less characters would have made this season little less confusing.

A murder mystery should keep it confusing until the last bit. That being said, throwing in another long dead body in episode 5 of 6 is pretty daring.

[marybennet]

I also think one of the things that's confusing--the family of women having children in their teens--contributes to the series's ability to make its point about the generational abuse (to use Magdalene's phrase) begun by his lordship/by a certain generation and class.

[proserpina65]

5 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

A murder mystery should keep it confusing until the last bit. That being said, throwing in another long dead body in episode 5 of 6 is pretty daring.

A mystery, sure.  But so confusing that we're struggling to keep all the details straight is a but much.  Maybe one less person in the mix would help?  I don't think I've ever been this in the weeds trying to sort out all the characters and their roles in the plot this late before.  I'm still enjoying it, but I am more confused than anything else at this point.

[EtheltoTillie]

Ive already watched the end on PBS passport. There are more twists. It’s funny to read these comments after seeing the end already as they are partly off the mark.  I will look forward to seeing the reactions. 

[susannot]

Wow, I'm more confused than ever.  Was Joseph shot twice in the head?  Forensics found two bullets.  First accidentally by Precious, then in cold blood by Lord Hume?

 

Glad that it ended on a positive note with Ebele and Jay finding each other.

[laredhead]

Count me among the confused as well.  Why did Lord Hume agree with Jay's story that he shot Joe, when actually Precious shot him by accident?  I'm going to have to begin keeping a murder/crime board to keep track of characters and their relation to each other, lol.

I wish Haley Mills had played a bigger part, but it was nice to see her. 

 

[Mermaid Under]

I was disappointed by the ending for a couple of reasons.

Count me among the cynical (as well as confused), but they basically spent what appeared to be an enormous amount of money and man hours on what turned out to be a murder suicide.

And they locked up a  man that was legally innocent of the murder, regardless of what he might be morally or historically guilty. Although they said they also got him charged with the rape.  I think in the US the statute of limitations would have precluded that charge, but I'm not a lawyer and certainly not familiar with British law..

I didn't believe that Lord Hume would plead guilty  to murder, although he doesn't have long to live.  And I didn't believe Lady Hume would sit quietly and let Ebele go through the long speech and soliloquy that she did.

I would like to take this opportunity to nominate the actors who played perpetually empty-eyed Jay Royce, and his girlfriend Scabby Face Unfortunate Bangs for BAFTAs.

[sugarbaker design]

42 minutes ago, Mermaid Under said:

I was disappointed by the ending for a couple of reasons.

I feel the same way.

42 minutes ago, Mermaid Under said:

Count me among the cynical (as well as confused), but they basically spent what appeared to be an enormous amount of money and man hours on what turned out to be a murder suicide.

Sounds to me like an accidental death/suicde.

43 minutes ago, Mermaid Under said:

And they locked up a  man that was legally innocent of the murder, regardless of what he might be morally or historically guilty.

As if covering up a crime and rape weren't enough.

There was some highlights that made it worth watching:

• DCI James's slow clap after Hume's "confession".
• Grandmother/grandson reunion
• Sunny asking James if she ever robbed a stagecoach.

[alias1]

I thought James's clapping was very unprofessional.  I have not warmed to her. 

Not really sure I liked this season.  But yes, Jay Royce was a standout for acting his part. 

[magdalene]

I thought it was poetic justice the way Lord Hume went down for the deaths.  Think about the destruction and misery he wrecked and created both on a personal level and in his life time as a politician. And he won't serve much time as he has a terminal illness. But his legacy is permanently and deservedly destroyed. My heart is not bleeding for him.

My sympathy is primarily reserved for Jay. I hope his grandmother can get her self-destructive tendencies under control to be a real help and support to him. Which would also be beneficial to her on so many levels.

Jay has so many odds stacked against him. Of course Miss Crackhead 23 of the unfortunate bangs dumps him for hot water access. Well, getting away from her may turn out to be a blessing for him.

I have some hope for Jay because he is smart and he showed a capacity for empathy and remorse.  Bringing the wilted flowers to the hospital to the woman he stole the hand bag from and pushed down - it may not be much but it is something. This young actor really gave a fine performance making me care what will happen to him.

[sugarbaker design]

14 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Bringing the wilted flowers to the hospital to the woman he stole the hand bag from and pushed down

I am so glad you mentioned this, because I didn't know for whom he left the flowers.  Makes me like him more.

[gesundheit]

3 hours ago, Mermaid Under said:

I would like to take this opportunity to nominate the actors who played perpetually empty-eyed Jay Royce, and his girlfriend Scabby Face Unfortunate Bangs for BAFTAs.

That scene where Scabby Face Unfortunate Bangs told Jay she was jumping ship was incredible -- imagine being told by her that you need to get your life together.

[AZChristian]

4 hours ago, Mermaid Under said:

And they locked up a  man that was legally innocent of the murder, regardless of what he might be morally or historically guilty. Although they said they also got him charged with the rape.  I think in the US the statute of limitations would have precluded that charge, but I'm not a lawyer and certainly not familiar with British law..

There is no statute of limitation on rape or other serious sexual offences in the UK.  Given what I endured for 12 years of my childhood, I wish I'd been raised there.

IMO, Lord Hume confessed to the murder and conceded to the rape charge as penance.  He's about to meet his maker.  Best do that after cleaning up your mess before you arrive at the pearly gates.

[Mermaid Under]

Quote

I thought James's clapping was very unprofessional.

100% unprofessional.  I don't even know what a slow hand clap is supposed to signify, but it is old, overused, and needs to go away. 

[sempervivum]

Disappointing. The mystery was dumb, we all knew who would be 'guilty' early on, and I now officially dislike both Jesse and Sunny.  I also didn't care about any of the victims, except possibly (as many have noted) Jay. Ebelle was shifty and self-pitying and for me, tarnished my sympathy with her gross, uncaring disposal of her daughter (and I don't believe Ebelle's story about the vodka, I think that she did give Precious FAS). Also, Ebelle was able to get a DNA analysis in 1988? Wouldn't that have been insanely expensive for a private citizen?

I very much doubt that Hume could have been convicted of rape on the basis of nothing more than an old letter from a suicidal woman. I also didn't understand why he was 'fleeing' to the continent; once the scandal came out, he'd still be identifiable wherever he went. That said, the police are not there to mete out their version of 'justice', and I believe Cassie would have let Hume go, given the contradictory stories.

If Jesse's so damn smart, why didn't she slow-clap Jay (who was also lying)? 

If Gorgeous Hubby didn't actually sleep with Psycho Sis, who did he sleep with? Because he sure acted guilty.

[Broderbits]

37 minutes ago, sempervivum said:

I also didn't understand why he was 'fleeing' to the continent; once the scandal came out, he'd still be identifiable wherever he went.

I thought he was going to Switzerland because he would have been eligible for assisted suicide under their rules. He was planning the trip before Precious' body was found.

[seacliffsal]

I wonder if James' 'slow clap' and verbal adminishing of Hume could be used in his defense to prove police bias.  Extremely unprofessional and I doubt she does that everytime someone confesses, so very prejudicial I would think.

I really didn't like/care about any of the victims (yes, I'm sorry they were victimized but that doesn't mean I have to like/care).  I also don't really care for James (again, sorry about the cheating husband but just don't care)-especially as she just seems so unprofessional.  She was rude when first meeting her team (and she should be professional even when her husband has confessed to cheating) and I soured even more on her with her reaction to Hume.

I feel like I was much more invested in the previous seasons.

[dleighg]

46 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

I thought he was going to Switzerland because he would have been eligible for assisted suicide under their rules.

exactly right

[sempervivum]

53 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

I thought he was going to Switzerland because he would have been eligible for assisted suicide under their rules. He was planning the trip before Precious' body was found.

He left without even telling poor old Hayley Mills! (Or did I doze off during an explanatory scene)?

[laredhead]

Kudus to the actress who played Ebele because she made me intensely dislike the character.  I had to keep reminding myself that the character had a sad life, but I also wanted to yell at her to shape up, get sober, and stop blaming everyone else for her problems.  Overall I found the story line to be pretty depressing all around, and this was probably my least favorite season.         

[12catcrazy]

2 hours ago, sempervivum said:

  Also, Ebelle was able to get a DNA analysis in 1988? Wouldn't that have been insanely expensive for a private citizen?

 

I think the DNA analysis would have been a good old-fashioned paternity test.  I don't know if they can do that off of saliva on a drinking glass but I'm going to chalk it up to the writers getting fanciful on what one could do with DNA in 1988 and it's affordability.  I don't think Ancestry.com or 23andme existed back then. 

[Broderbits]

3 hours ago, sempervivum said:

Also, Ebelle was able to get a DNA analysis in 1988? Wouldn't that have been insanely expensive for a private citizen?

I Googled this and apparently DNA paternity testing was available in 1988 and would have cost between $500 and $1000.

[Rickster]

I ended up thinking this season was constructed to make a number of socio-political points, somewhat heavy handedly, rather than being focused on delivering an intriguing/satisfying mystery.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Rickster

[SusieQ]

18 minutes ago, Rickster said:

I ended up thinking this season was constructed to make a number of socio-political points, somewhat heavy handedly, rather than being focused on delivering an intriguing/satisfying mystery.

I totally agree. Very disappointing.

[proserpina65]

On 10/8/2023 at 10:43 PM, laredhead said:

Why did Lord Hume agree with Jay's story that he shot Joe, when actually Precious shot him by accident? 

Out of guilt for what he'd done to that family for so long, and because he was dying anyway.

Honestly, I found the resolution rather a letdown after how complicated the story had gotten.  Not terrible, just unsatisfying.

22 hours ago, sempervivum said:

I also didn't understand why he was 'fleeing' to the continent; once the scandal came out, he'd still be identifiable wherever he went.

I assumed he was going someplace where he could legally commit suicide.  I also thought he was trying to tell his wife about that when he was trying to tell her about his past (the rape, I think) and she did not want to hear it.

 

14 hours ago, Rickster said:

I ended up thinking this season was constructed to make a number of socio-political points, somewhat heavy handedly, rather than being focused on delivering an intriguing/satisfying mystery.

I agree with this 100 percent.  It was more about social justice than it was about actual legal justice.

[Tiggertoo]

Hume had a letter with Dignitas letterhead.  They provide legal physician-assisted suicide in Switzerland.

I was also disappointed with the resolution.  I couldn’t stand any of them, including sad face Jay or the new guv, Jessie James. 

Can we pretend that this was all a dream and bring Cassie back?

And we never saw Sunny’s kids this season.

[MaryHedwig]

5 hours ago, Tiggertoo said:

And we never saw Sunny’s kids this season.

Do they still even exist? I thought Sunny had sole custody and they did not seem old enough to be in college yet.

Did we have new writers this season? I feel like we posters understand the original tone of this show better than they do.

[AZChristian]

On 10/10/2023 at 4:01 PM, MaryHedwig said:

Do they still even exist? I thought Sunny had sole custody and they did not seem old enough to be in college yet.

Ironic that on a show called "Unforgotten," his girls have been totally forgotten this season.

[sugarbaker design]

On 10/10/2023 at 7:01 PM, MaryHedwig said:

Did we have new writers this season? I feel like we posters understand the original tone of this show better than they do.

Nope, still the same writer.  Chris Lang has written the majority, if not all, of the episodes in Unforgotten's five seasons.

The tone of the show hasn't changed.  It's still about the dogged pursuit of justice for the forgotten.

The reason Sunny's daughters weren't featured this season is because Sunny isn't living with them.  They weren't germane to the plot.  Just because a character isn't mentioned or seen it doesn't automatically mean they don't exist.

Edited October 13, 2023 by sugarbaker design