S06.E17: Brothers in Arms

[SleepDeprived]

23 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Late, but I love the insinuation that Black Siren could pass off as Lawyer Laurel just by reading a few books lmao. Such a beloved legal mind, RIP

It is these precious moments that I relish the fact that the dude showrunning and overseeing the storylines and characterizations of Arrow is Marc Guggenheim--an actual lawyer who graduated law school and was actually lawyering for years before becoming a writer.

[way2interested]

I gotta say, if you don't think about it much, the episode was actually kind of good*, kind of as if the writers decided "yes, we know we can't get through this, but if we try a minimum amount of some reasoning and leave it all on the acting, it might just be passable." I'll give them points for at least trying to make something totally based on plot tentpoles they pre-set more character driven (although not completely clear) than they usually do. 

*Not necessarily counting the other plots, which at least went by really quickly but tbh I laughed at the makeout scene at the end

But yay! Continuing focus on Oliver being a better person. But boo! This stuff with Curtis and his bf. I legitimately wanted him to be bad so the newbies could understand having trust issues.

[BunsenBurner]

I get that Digg wants to be in command but remember he was not an officer in the military. Oliver was always the general in this show. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by BunsenBurner

[Guest]

One of the most baffling parts of this episode is Diggle blaming Oliver essentially getting a life outside of GA as the reason he's a poor leader. Like, what? The dude has been on at Oliver since s1 that he should have something/someone to fight for and be more than GA but now that's wrong? He even listed Oliver getting married, like somehow that's to blame. It just doesn't make any sense. This is painfully bad writing. PAINFULLY.

[JamieLynn832002]

I didn't hate this episode like I expected. I liked that they played it with even Dig not really understanding his reaction.  I was really afraid it going to sold as Oliver 100% wrong but it really wasn't. I did hate that they both went for such low blows in the fight as seems out of character.but SA and DR sold the hell out of it.

[thuganomics85]

Positive first: congrats to the show getting renewed for a 7th season, at least.  Even when this show dives right into stupid territory (which is really happening way too much lately), I still remember that it's the O.G. show, and the rest likely wouldn't be here without it.

But anyways, this was stupid as expected, but it's become one of those weird scenarios similar to when Thea stupidly talked Oliver back from telling Felicity about William in S4, where I can't even bring myself to hate Diggle for what he has done, because it is just so ridiculous and so out of character, that I've separated it from the actual show, and am just refusing to let this stupid writing effect how I view him as a character.  And the thing is that, on some level, this could have made sense.  The problem is that the execution was just horrible.  As this been another universe where Oliver truly did do the Noobs wrong, then I could actually see the logic behind Diggle's questions about Oliver's leadership.  Had they actually spent time showing Diggle really get invested in wearing the hood, I could see why he would lash out over Oliver reclaiming it.  But since it has been bungled so badly, it just makes Diggle look stupid.  Hell, Oliver himself pretty much pointed out every flaw in his logic, and he was 100% right, but I feel like the show wants me to think otherwise.  But, again, I'm not even mad about it, because I'm almost laughing at how ridiculous this has become.  Really, the only logical explanations about this about face would be either a) this is an anomaly that Damien has caused and the Legends will quickly fix this in a few weeks or b) Barry fucked up the timeline (again.) 

Credit where credit it due though, Stephen Amell and David Ramsey certainly sold the hell out of it, especially with the big fight.  And while not as prominent, Emily Bett Rickards equally really sold Felicity's frustration and shock over everything just falling apart in front of her.  If nothing else, this shows how power the original Team Arrow is, because if I have to sit through crappy writing, I at least can enjoy watching these three do what they can, compared to the stupid noobs.

But now Diggle has quit again and it seems like he's actually going to join ARGUS?  At this point, maybe they're just going to take a page of Marvel's playbook and develop some kind of Agents of ARGUS series.  Of course, the big question I have is if ARGUS has a H.R. department, because I can only imagine the forms they will need if the director is married to a subordinate (I did love seeing Lyla again!)

I can't think of any worse filler then Curtis dealing with his lame love life.  Ain't going to make me like him, show.

So, Diaz and Black Siren are a thing, apparently.  Eww.  In general, I'm still bored with Diaz and am missing Cayden.  But, again, I feel like I would really have liked this more if Anatoly was the main antagonist.

I laughed when BS was wondering how hard it would be for her to be as good of a lawyer as Original Laurel, since we're talking about the same prosecutor who couldn't even convict Moira Queen, who was pretty much telling everyone "Yes, I totally helped plan blowing up the city."

Next week's episode looks even more ridiculous.  Can't wait!

[Chaser]

Diaz is this annoying little gnat buzzing around the background. All these Team conflicts have taken the stage normally reserved for the villains. 

[calliope1975]

That was a very well acted episode that made no sense. I'm guessing I was slipped some vertigo so I'll chalk it up to a bad trip. It makes me mad/sad/smad that TPTB have such an amazing opportunity to create something unique and entertaining and maybe even meaningful, and this is what we get. 

Ah well, I don't have much nice to say so I won't say anything else except Felicity/EBR looked quite pretty in that yellow top at the beginning. 

[La Dee Da]

It was well acted and so emotional (gah, the low blows in that last fight) - at least it didn’t dissolve into the two of them playing tug of war with the suit and shouting “miiiiiiiine!” at each other. But like a lot of this season it was poorly plotted and timed.  There were better opportunities to introduce and cultivate this perspective earlier in the season and then build to this point.  For example, the episode in which the team broke up. Diggle, who was the leader at the time, could have been more vocal about the decisions Oliver took in the break up (I need to stress I totally agree with the newbies being gone) and then, in later episodes, struggling to maintain a leadership voice as Oliver transitioned from substitute Arrow to full-time team leader. 

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

 

Oliver has had multiple finding  himself moments, so has Felicity and Thea. Even Roy had his.  Let's give Diggle an arc where he finds his permanent place in the world instead f just following someone else always.

I hope this is where the show takes this - beyond his family, we see so little about his external life. It would be great to see a storyline in which he feels fulfilled.

[Soulfire]

..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TrueMyth]

So, I know what they are actually setting up, but my initial impression when Siren was slinking towards DDDiaz with the Vertigo vial was that they were going to get high and have kinky sex. Ew.

[ohjoy]

1 hour ago, Chaser said:

Diaz is this annoying little gnat buzzing around the background. All these Team conflicts have taken the stage normally reserved for the villains. 

Nonsensical team conflict is the real villain of this season.

[Chaser]

19 minutes ago, TrueMyth said:

So, I know what they are actually setting up, but my initial impression when Siren was slinking towards DDDiaz with the Vertigo vial was that they were going to get high and have kinky sex. Ew.

Tbh that’s what I thought they were doing. Just Gross. 

[SleepDeprived]

Did Oliver and Felicity (and William) move to a new place? Those gifs of them in front of all those windows is their master bedroom, right? Didn't we see Oliver's bedroom (before he married Felicity) earlier this season? I don't recall there being any windows. Actually, apart from the living room, I don't remember there being that many windows at the apartment Oliver and William had been living in. Now, I'm pretty sure they probably just redress the apartment sets every which way since this show can't really afford very many sets but the schematics of the Queen's home is so confusing. Lol.

5 minutes ago, TrueMyth said:

So, I know what they are actually setting up, but my initial impression when Siren was slinking towards DDDiaz with the Vertigo vial was that they were going to get high and have kinky sex. Ew.

I'm interested to know how that is the first thing that you thought of in a scene featuring Arrow's "big bad" with the least amount of sex appeal--or any appeal, for that matter. That being said, you need Jesus. Heh. And someone needs to let me know how to unread something and erase it forever in my brain, please.

[KillahBee007]

What a dumb episode. It’s cute how the writers are trying to go this route with John. Don’t worry writers, the n00bs are still trash. I didn’t forget.  Also, why is the show acting as if Mad Puppy didn’t swing a damn axe at Oliver or pull a gun at him? I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, be glad Oliver didn’t kill him. 

 

Funny how there is time found for Curtis’ love interest but FS SL? Nah. Yes, I know he’s a cop but it’s just an observation I had. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by KillahBee007

[apinknightmare]

13 minutes ago, SleepDeprived said:

Actually, apart from the living room

I thought that’s where they were 

[SleepDeprived]

7 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I thought that’s where they were 

Oh yeah, you're right! That is the living room. I don't know why I thought that was their master bedroom. I think I'm used to seeing their living room in a wider shot rather than that tight shot the director did.

[bijoux]

I'm really trying to wrap my head around how John got to where he is. I tried everything on for size. Aftereffects of 3D drugs months after the fact, him still taking drugs (knowingly or unknowingly), Barry, Curtis messing with his chip somehow also messing with his head. I was pretty set on this last one. But I think what I've finally landed on is him projecting. Somewhere deep down he really blames himself for everything that's going on, because I agree with Oliver, this was all set into motion while Dig was in charge, and he's not able to deal with that on the one hand, but also wanted to be back in charge so he could fix it and Oliver remaining in his role is robbing him of this chance. This team really needs a shrink. Maybe their designated doctor has multiple specialties and would be willing to step in? Because Dig really contorted himself into finding his arguments. He always supported Oliver's way of doing things? On which Earth, because on this one he started questioning and opposing Oliver's choices straight from season 1. Which is not an issue at all, because he was right plenty of times, but don't play it otherwise, man.

3 hours ago, Chaser said:

Lance is still riding the creepy train. He isn’t trying to get to know BS at all, he’s just trying to get her to play the part of ‘Laurel’.  And she’s literally studying for it .

She should have asked if she'd be given a pop quiz afterwards. I'd bet on yes.

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I feel like the crux of the matter is Diggle is frustrated with the constant losses and rather than blame the newbs for being babies, he's blaming Oliver.  I mean, blaming him for not going to rescue Vince?  They were trying to save the WHOLE city.  They had run out of money.  They didn't have a way of stalling Cayden any longer.  Getting that bomb was what VInce had risked his life to do.  Oliver was putting the city first.  And I really never saw Diggle make any hint that he thought they should have gone after Vince instead so to now imply he would have made a different call is bullshit.

...

And what's worse, I'm not sure I see us ever getting the OTA back again.  I think we might have lost DIggle to Argus forever.    

1. That was one of the more perplexing of Dig's arguments and God knows there was plenty to choose from. I have the distinct memory that he was very much on board straight away and they were also proven to be right in their decision. They maybe could have saved Vince for a while, but the whole city would have been doomed. A city in which Vince was still in, so... Also a city about which claims to care for, yet he now walked out on the remains of the team while it's in the dumpster with no plan to speak of until Lyla handed one to him. Which brings me to:

2. I really don't see this lasting. If it did, I'm afraid a second divorce would be very likely and I don't want that for them. Moreover, I don't think the show wants it either. But I was glad to have Lyla suggest it, because for a split second I feared she would point them in the n00bs' direction. That would have been horrible.

[catrox14]

Finally saw the episode.

I am so angry about John and Oliver.  They are writing Diggle utterly out of left field and it's just bullshit.

I hate this so much.

[bijoux]

In less important developments, I see Dinah runs sting operations along the same model of team walk alongs. Why in Gods name were there three or four cops following each other in the market? Spread them out! Her personality or what passes for it remains unchanged with that stupid sniping at the beginning. If ever it comes to the teams reuniting, and I fear we all know it will, I need Oliver to sit them all down and air his grievances out. Rene, instead of coming to me or anyone else on the team when you were being pressured by the FBI, you ratted out on me which endangered not only me, but all the others as well, which everyone more or less conveniently ignores. You also aimed to shoot at Lance and my sister while they were unarmed, and grazed Felicity, who was also unarmed. Then you ended up in the hospital where I put you, but in reaction to your swinging the business end of an axe at me. Just because you were unsuccessful at it, doesn't mean you don't bear the guilt. (deep breath, moves on) Dinah, while you bitch about lack of trust, when we put you under surveilance you were hiding your continued involvement with the team's enemy, a person who has both targeted me and dropped casualties like nothing. Previously to that, you also kept secrets about Dig's drug abuse and Lance shooting fake Laurel. Are you getting where I'm going with this? No? (sigh) Curtis, while you were caught in the surveilance bit blameless, let's also admit that tracking your GPS, something that parents do to keep their children safe is nowhere near the vicinity of having your "friends" ingest tracking nanites and messing with the technology that's supposed to help with their disability, while also causing them pain! And John... Felicity gave me a reference for a couple's therapist. Are you free the day after tomorrow?

I was honestly bummed when it wasn't Curtis's boyfriend who turned on them but another cop. Fingers crossed that he's just deep undercover. Also, seeing this dude makes me really wonder about Curtis having the hots for Oliver in season 4. He doesn't seem like his type at all. He seems to go for smaller white guys. So, Tiny Hands seems more his jam. Maybe even Roy.

[EmilyBettFan]

4 hours ago, Angel12d said:

OTA with the billing they deserve. Yassss.

The gif omg LOL love it! ???

[cambridgeguy]

If the were going to have Dig go this route they should have gotten all of this out in the open at the beginning of season 4.  Back then he had a much more legitimate gripe about Oliver's choices. 

All that being said, I do think Oliver's a crappy mayor but that's mainly because he never had the necessary skills in the first place, not because he's moonlighting as GA.

[UNOSEZ]

Maybe Diggle finally had it.. He's been the good soldier second in command and eventually ppl get tired of being there.. Its not like he liked he has counseled Oliver against  some of his decisions in the past usually to no avail... Ollie consistently witheld info or his full plans... And even tho they lost ppl or things along the way it usually worked out... But its cumulative.. Add to that how bad everything is with the newbies... When diggle said that spying wasn't the way to handle it tried to get Ollie to not do it and again Oliver (because his son was involved)  didn't listen... That fracture led to bad missions because they weren't whole... And finally he did get to wear the hood so maybe he started to believe he could do it better... None of  them are faultless but Ollie is the leader.. And to paraphrase diggle .. Your leadership style Is Basura

[KillahBee007]

Honestly? If this wasn’t a crappy attempt to justify the trash n00bs, I would’ve rather liked the episode. It’s time that John did his own thing but the way it was plotted? Nah.   I will always back OTA. This was a poorly written attempt to try to get folks to forget how trash the n00bs are and what they’ve done. 

 

Arrow Writers: See, guys, even John has issues with Oliver?!? 

Arrow Writers: See, the n00bs are right?!

Edited April 6, 2018 by KillahBee007
Added more arrow writer dialogue

[benteen]

11 hours ago, KenyaJ said:

I’m tired. This show makes me tired. Watching a show that twists its characters into pretzels to make storylines happen is tiring.

Diggle broke Oliver’s heart and mine, because I don’t understand him or his revisionist history right now. And that’s all I’m going to say about that, because why should I spend any more time trying to make this make sense than the writers did?

And I wish I’d thought to read some law books instead of wasting 3 years of my life on law school. If only I was as smart as Quentin, maybe I wouldn’t be so tired right now.

Now I need to go throw up from that last scene with Dragon and BS. I'm disgusted. Beyond.

What did the writers do?  What they always do...write their characters to fit the storyline instead of writing their storylines to fit the characters. 

[Chaser]

The ‘logic’ they are using frustrated the hell out of me but what really made me angry was that they made John mean. 

He went low. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Chaser

[KillahBee007]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

The ‘logic’ they are using frustrated the hell out of me but what really made me angry was that they made John mean. 

He went low. 

See, that’s what got me too. It was just dumb all around. 

[apinknightmare]

Just now, KillahBee007 said:

See, that’s what got me too. It was just dumb all around. 

It's okay, he's going to go work for ARGUS now, a group whose leadership he's never questioned and that he's never expressed issues with whatsoever!!!!

[KillahBee007]

2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

It's okay, he's going to go work for ARGUS now, a group whose leadership he's never questioned and that he's never expressed issues with whatsoever!!!!

Never had an issue at all. Yup. Seems legit. 

 

My god, what a dumb dumb episode.

[calliope1975]

Didn't Oliver ask for alternatives to tracking NTA and got nada in response? 

Digg should have had to deal with other Earth Nazis. I bet his perspective might be different. 

All in all it's so dumb I can't even take it seriously. Even if it's not revealed that Digg is suffering from drug aftereffects, that's the head canon I'm going with. 

[insomniadreams88]

Rewatched the argument scene and I'm SO FRUSTRATED with Diggle.

I really don't get Diggle bringing up that Oliver got married and is raising a son. Uh, Diggle, you're doing the same thing. Fine, he's also the mayor, and considering Diggle doesn't have a job, okay. But why make it sound like Diggle thinks that Oliver should be alone and job-less? Am I supposed to feel bad for Lyla and JJ because I think I do? 

Noticed that when Diggle said they had a team, even before the newbies, he lists Roy and Thea. Not Laurel.   

Cannot believe that Diggle brings up having an opportunity to save Vince. I guess Lyla and JJ weren't in Star City when it could have been destroyed by the bomb or has he forgotten about his family like Rene forgot about his daughter at the time?

And he's blaming Oliver for them not getting the money back from Laurel? And putting Rene in the hospital when the newbies started that whole fight? Did he forget about how Curtis hacked his chip? I think he did. 

And the stuff about Diaz? Oliver was 100% right there.

I still can't believe Diggle brought up William and Samantha. That's Rene-low. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 hours ago, EmilyBettFan said:

The gif omg LOL love it! ???

We Desis know how to...brag without being...obnoxious? Now I have to figure out what show competition that's from.

And based on all the comments here, I'magonnahaftahavetodrink when watching this episode tonight.

[KillahBee007]

6 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Rewatched the argument scene and I'm SO FRUSTRATED with Diggle.

I really don't get Diggle bringing up that Oliver got married and is raising a son. Uh, Diggle, you're doing the same thing. Fine, he's also the mayor, and considering Diggle doesn't have a job, okay. But why make it sound like Diggle thinks that Oliver should be alone and job-less? Am I supposed to feel bad for Lyla and JJ because I think I do? 

Noticed that when Diggle said they had a team, even before the newbies, he lists Roy and Thea. Not Laurel.   

Cannot believe that Diggle brings up having an opportunity to save Vince. I guess Lyla and JJ weren't in Star City when it could have been destroyed by the bomb or has he forgotten about his family like Rene forgot about his daughter at the time?

And he's blaming Oliver for them not getting the money back from Laurel? And putting Rene in the hospital when the newbies started that whole fight? Did he forget about how Curtis hacked his chip? I think he did. 

And the stuff about Diaz? Oliver was 100% right there.

I still can't believe Diggle brought up William and Samantha. That's Rene-low. 

This is why I really dislike the writers. The reasoning behind this is so shady. Majority of fans love OTA. Love the bromance between John and Oliver. A lot of people hate the n00bs so why not try to make Diggle as OOC as possible to justify that dumpster fire.  Dumb. 

[DavidJSnyder]

Diggle is acting weird enough that I'm wondering if he's actually being mentally influenced somehow.  Like Lyla is the real big bad this season and she wants John at Argus for some reason.

[catrox14]

One thing I noticed during the fights between Oliver and John was how emotional DR was playing that beyond anger. John's eyes were  tearing up even as he was punching Oliver. I can't recollect him crying often in this show other than about Andy.

I could be misremembering but it really stuck out to me as something kind of new for John. Which makes me wonder if that was just something that happened during the filming so they left it in, or if it was a deliberate choice by David to communicate that maybe something else is going on with John besides being kind of a petty mean jerk. It's totally OOC for him to be so mean.  

I completely disagree with the comment that John never really "liked" counseling Oliver. John joined Oliver because he could see that this was the best way for him to help the city and Oliver. He never complained about his mission and his role throughout that process.  And John has ALWAYS spoken his mind directly with Oliver when he's been unhappy with something Oliver was planning or did. John has never minced words with Oliver about much of anything.

IMO, if John is now seeking more recognition then this is certainly not the way to write that. They are doing John no favors. 

If John is having a crisis of confidence because of his arm and the fact that the chip keeps his arm working then the show really needs to step up and communicate this is where John's issues are stemming. That maybe when his chip was compromised by asshole Curtis, that shook him more than he's letting on and that maybe he's really got some insecurities around that.  Which I would completely believe and buy into because John is a soldier at heart and if he thinks he can't fire a weapon or be effective in the field because his chip might fail, then I can see him projecting those fears all over Oliver.

At this point, that's really the only explanation I will accept for John's completely OOC behavior in this episode. 

[tv echo]

Major kudos to SA and DR for their great acting in this episode. They took a storyline that made no sense and gave convincing performances. Otherwise, what a stupid episode...

I still don't understand Diggle. So he's saying that Oliver can only be a great leader and the hero that the city deserves if Oliver devotes 100% of his time to being the GA, with no family and no other job? Does that mean Diggle is willing to neglect his family, including his son, in order to be that leader and hero?

It would've been one thing - and a more understandable reason - if Diggle just wanted to lead his own team and be the one who made the big decisions. But the way this episode was written, it just makes Diggle come across as inconsistent and a bit hypocritical. It wasn't that long ago when Diggle led Team Arrow, while Oliver & Felicity were living in Ivy Town, and Diggle always made sure to leave the bunker in time to spend time with his family. So again, WTF? Diggle is allowed to have his focus split between saving the city and spending time with his family, but not Oliver?

It was like Diggle had a split personality in this episode. One moment, he's silently fuming about not being the Green Arrow. The next moment, he's back to being the mature Diggle that we know. The next moment, he's angrily blaming Oliver for everything bad that's happened - and apparently suffering selective amnesia about what actually did happen. The next moment, he's back to being calm Diggle. Then the next moment, he's yelling and punching Oliver. 

It also felt like, as others have said upthread, the writers were using Diggle to defend and justify the newbies' anger toward OTA (surveilling the newbies was "a mistake", not saving the Vigilante was wrong, the decision about Laurel and the money was wrong). Total B.S.!

Bottom line: I cannot side with Diggle. I'm still Team Oliver.

Anatoly cold-bloodedly shot that good, young cop in the back and then joked about it. (I sometimes forget how bad he is, because I've liked him and his relationship with Oliver.) That's as bad as when Black Siren cold-bloodedly shot that innocent security guard who pled for his life, even though it wasn't necessary to kill him. Both characters cannot and should not be redeemed now, in my opinion. But this is Arrow, so who knows?

Hi and bye, Officer Hurst (played by Aason Nadjiwan)! You had a brief but heroic moment.

If Black Siren becomes the new D.A. after reading a few law books on random topics, that'll just be totally ridiculous. Funny, I don't think that impeachment is a topic that's covered in the law books normally used in law school. Also, wouldn't D.A. Armand - someone who's been through law school and practiced as a prosecutor for presumably several years - have come up with this impeachment idea on his own? Why did it need to be suggested to him by someone who's only read a few law books?

Shut up, Dinah. Shut up, Curtis. And I hate to say it - shut up, Diggle.

The only majorly good thing about this episode was that there was a lot of Oliver, Diggle and Felicity, and minimal newbies (except for the ubiquitous Dinah) and minimal villains.

I did love that Oliver and Diggle were able to take on and defeat a bunch of bad guys all by themselves. No need for the newbies.

I also loved the small Olicity moments. Felicity: "You'll always have me. I'm not going anywhere." But, uh oh, with that promo for next week.

Most chilling moment of this episode was delivered by SA as Oliver, when he confronted Captain Hill and D.A. Armand about their working for Ricardo Diaz. Oliver: "If I was the Green Arrow, I don't think you'd want to be in this room right now. I don't think either of you would."

People sometimes forget that Oliver can be the most ruthless badass of all badasses (regardless of his recent softening or lack of meta powers). SA is good at portraying Oliver in such a way as to remind them of that fact.

Edited April 6, 2018 by tv echo

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, KillahBee007 said:

This is why I really dislike the writers. The reasoning behind this is so shady. Majority of fans love OTA. Love the bromance between John and Oliver. A lot of people hate the n00bs so why not try to make Diggle as OOC as possible to justify that dumpster fire.  Dumb. 

This is what baffles me. I've never known a bunch of writers with such a disconnect from their audience. How do they not know, after all these years, that using OTA in a bad way is only going to backfire? I can think of a hundred better ways to get the audience to like the newbies (before this civil war mess happened) but destroying OTA's characters is not one of them. All it will do is make OTA fans hate them even more. At least, that's what it's done for me. 

Characters should be able to stand on their own and be liked and supported for who they are by themselves. If you have to tear down others to make that happen, they're not good characters in the first place and definitely should not be on the show.

Honestly, all I'm thinking now is how much worse it's going to get to get OTA and the newbies in a place where they team up again and every scenario has OTA taking a hit, Oliver especially. It's such bullshit.

[calliope1975]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

One thing I noticed during the fights between Oliver and John was how emotional DR was playing that beyond anger. John's eyes were  tearing up even as he was punching Oliver. I can't recollect him crying often in this show other than about Andy.

There was a shot of DR where he had tears streaming down his face, and I thought that was an interesting choice. (It also made me really sad because it's Digg! and he's crying!) The anger I could get, but that much deep sadness didn't make sense unless (pick your logical reason for the fight, not what we were told on screen.) I like the idea that he is projecting his own emotions about failure and poor decision making onto Oliver.

Edited April 6, 2018 by calliope1975

[UNOSEZ]

When I thought diggle was just wanting the hood.. I agreed with mist that it was outta character... And ppl upthread are right diggle hasnt really had a problem speaking his mind... But Oliver still tended to do what he was gonna do.. And that's when he even told diggle what the full plan was beforehand sometimes he'd just drop stuff and the team would be like.. What??.. Its generally worked out in the end but still maybe after 6 years he had enough... Blame the newbies all you want( they deserve most of it)  but putting them under surveillance was the wrong move.. Ollie made it because he had more going on in his life.. Old Ollie woulda just confronted them.. Maybe a fight maybe a convo.. But not spying.   I for one think this convo was long overdue... Wish it didn't get so nasty with the Williams mom and Diggle's brother stuff... But it shoulda happened.. And Ollie was right Diaz was under Diggle 's nose..  I don't think ( at least I hope)  the writers think this will somehow make the newbs more sympathetic to the masses( personally I've understood some of their gripes and don't totally hate them)  this clash was bound to happen... After a while number 2's either wanna or have to be number 1's... 

I know why for plot reasons... But couldn't they have just decided that Diggle calls the shots for a while... Minus the drug thing he's been measured and a good leader its not like Ollie doesn't know that...

 Of course the story wouldn't work for the show.. But still

Also.. The show needs to have felicity do something other than hug and cheer up Oliver... wear tight skirts and high heels in the bunker or the loft... She's better than that.. Give her something meaningful to do

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Diaz. Oliver: "If I was the Green Arrow, I don't think you'd want to be in this room right now. I don't think either of you would."

That was incredible. I meant to mention it but forgot so thank you you for this. I literally gasped and said out loud to myself, "Oh, shit. Oliver is not fucking around". . It was truly a terrifying moment from SA. Outstanding work for SA and DR throughout the episode.

[insomniadreams88]

38 minutes ago, tv echo said:

It would've been one thing - and a more understandable reason - if Diggle just wanted to lead his own team and be the one who made the big decisions. But the way this episode was written, it just makes Diggle come across as inconsistent and a bit hypocritical. It wasn't that long ago when Diggle led Team Arrow, while Oliver & Felicity were living in Ivy Town, and Diggle always made sure to leave the bunker in time to spend time with his family. So again, WTF? Diggle is allowed to have his focus split between saving the city and spending time with his family, but not Oliver?

Exactly. I feel like Oliver being married with a kid shouldn't have been mentioned at all. It would've made more sense if Diggle focused on Oliver being the mayor since that is a full-time job and not one he can neglect (like he could being CEO in S2). Instead, I spent most of the time Diggle was talking in that scene going, "Poor Lyla and JJ."

Then I remembered that he didn't have them in the alien world in the 100th and then I hated that I was back to thinking about that since Diggle brought it up earlier this season when talking about wanting to be the GA. 

[KillahBee007]

55 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

This is what baffles me. I've never known a bunch of writers with such a disconnect from their audience. How do they not know, after all these years, that using OTA in a bad way is only going to backfire? I can think of a hundred better ways to get the audience to like the newbies (before this civil war mess happened) but destroying OTA's characters is not one of them. All it will do is make OTA fans hate them even more. At least, that's what it's done for me. 

Characters should be able to stand on their own and be liked and supported for who they are by themselves. If you have to tear down others to make that happen, they're not good characters in the first place and definitely should not be on the show.

Honestly, all I'm thinking now is how much worse it's going to get to get OTA and the newbies in a place where they team up again and every scenario has OTA taking a hit, Oliver especially. It's such bullshit.

If I could like a post over and over again, this would be it. They do this every damn season. All that bullshit last night made me hate the n00bs that much more. 

[UNOSEZ]

Its not like diggle said he wouldn’t help Ollie if he needed it… Tho it wasn’t expressly stated.. What I got was that Diggle gave Ollie a vote of no confidence.. And while you can explain how there were and are extenuating circumstances to everything.. Ollie has been in charge and things have gone downhill… Every single person he’s brought into help left him.. For one reason or another. . as a leader after a while.. You gotta look at how ur doing what ur doing and wonder if its the right way.. Dig has lost confidence in oliver as a leader.. I’ve always thought dig should not just speak up more but put his foot down sometime over the last 6 seasons… An this was just the culmination of that… Clunky and messy for sure( this is still arrow) but not completely outta the blue…. Even the progression in the episode… He’s mad about the hood.. Then he blows up.. Then he calms down then Ollie apologizes and then he thinks some more.. Scared of what he’s realizing… They fight.. But suck it up because they’re pros.. But it still bugs him… Because he knows what it means… And then he leaves…

[catrox14]

Do you guys think Diaz has something on Dig or Lyla and that's why he's breaking away? Maybe he has to push this fight to leave? I dunno, just a thought.

[KenyaJ]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

If Black Siren becomes the new D.A. after reading a few law books on random topics, that'll just be totally ridiculous. Funny, I don't think that impeachment is a topic that's covered in the law books normally used in law school. Also, wouldn't D.A. Armand - someone who's been through law school and practiced as a prosecutor for presumably several years - have come up with this impeachment idea on his own? Why did it need to be suggested to him by someone who's only read a few law books?

No, impeachment isn't something that would normally be covered in law school because impeachment is a political process, not a legal one. But what Armand said about obstruction of justice was true, and I was surprised and impressed that the show went there. If Hill and Armand weren't dirty and corrupt, Armand would have been absolutely correct about how terrible it looks that the indicted mayor fired the police captain and the DA charged with prosecuting him. (Similar to Trump firing James Comey and the rumblings of him potentially firing the Attorney General so he can replace him with someone who will fire Bob Mueller.)

In reality, Oliver is justified in firing Hill and Armand for cause, since they both confessed to being corrupt. But since he's the only one who knows it, they managed to turn the tables on him and make him look like he's the one who's corrupt. He can be prosecuted for that legally (although he's not guilty), but the city can also go through the political process of impeaching him and removing him from office, regardless of whether there's a legal case against him. As much as I hate that Oliver is facing this, it's the first smart, realistic, and interesting thing that's happened in this entire storyline.

[statsgirl]

Maybe the impeachment is Guggenheim's yearly nod to current politics and we'll be spared the BLM episode (which Black Lightning is killing right now, especially in the last episode when Jefferson was arrested).

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Do you guys think Diaz has something on Dig or Lyla and that's why he's breaking away? Maybe he has to push this fight to leave? I dunno, just a thought.

Damn, hope so, That's something that would make sense of this mess.  Or at least that the drug Diaz gave him at the start of the season has a longterm hallucinogenic effect.

23 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

 Ollie has been in charge and things have gone downhill… Every single person he’s brought into help left him.. For one reason or another. . as a leader after a while.. You gotta look at how ur doing what ur doing and wonder if its the right way.. Dig has lost confidence in oliver as a leader.. I’ve always thought dig should not just speak up more but put his foot down sometime over the last 6 seasons… An this was just the culmination of that…

Diggle has put his foot down a lot over the six seasons, starting with when Oliver left him to face Deadshot alone while he went to save Laurel. And Diggle even quit over that one.  He put his foot down when Oliver as Al Sah-him kidnapped Lyla and he didn't want to let Oliver back on the team.

You have to look at why people left. Thea left because she needed a new purpose in her life (and because the show took her screen time and gave it to the n00bs).

Rene left because... Oliver found out that Rene has sold him out?  Because Oliver tried to find out who the traitor was?  There was never any good reason  for Rene leaving unless he was so ashamed of himself he couldn't work with Oliver any more.

Curtis left because Oliver spied on the three of them when he found out that someone had turned traitor on him.  That's massive hypocrisy from Curtis who fed Felicity nanites last season so he could track her. Also Oliver would have been a terrible leader if he didn't try to find out who was the traitor because it could hurt the rest of the Team. As the team's leader, he has to protect his people.

After repeated lying and keeping secrets from him, Dinah left because Oliver chose to save the city instead of her boyfriend.  He didn't try to prevent Dinah, Rene or Curtis from saving Vince, he just prioritized the hundreds of thousands of people in Star City over one man who had repeatedly tried to kill him. What a terrible person.

If Oliver had been making stupid decisions through the last eight months, it might have made sense that at this point Diggle gave up.  But finally Oliver is making good decisions. Diggle choosing to complain about Olier's leaders at this point makes no sense.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Damn, hope so, That's something that would make sense of this mess.  Or at least that the drug Diaz gave him at the start of the season has a longterm hallucinogenic effect

Maybe not even hallucinogenic but more that it heightens his anxiety, fear, paranoia, etc and it's coming out this way. A more subtle effect than full on hallucinations. 

Another thought. Maybe John is relating to being in the Green Arrow uniform because of his soldier days. Maybe it's all just messing with his perspective, his anxieties about Andy, his fear that he can't be a good soldier now. Or maybe he had some incident in the Army with someone above him who undermined him which didn't allow him to advance and it's all coming out on Oliver?

It would make a lot more sense than him siding with the idiot N00bs.

Edited April 6, 2018 by catrox14

[tv echo]

Here's another thing...

In this episode, Quentin urges BS to get a real job by using his dead daughter's legal resume and reading some law books. Putting aside the implausibility of that for a second, his Laurel was exposed as being the Black Canary when she died - a vigilante who broke the law at night while prosecuting criminals during the day.

Now that everyone believes his Laurel to be alive, shouldn't she be subject to disbarment proceedings and her law license stripped away? Realistically, she should also be indicted as at least a co-conspirator to whatever crimes that Oliver is being charged with.

How can she possibly be allowed to continue practicing law as Laurel the Lawyer, when everyone knows she was a vigilante?

However, with the way this show has been written, it wouldn't surprise me if something happened to Jean Loring and Black Siren (posing as E1 Laurel) ended up becoming Oliver's defense attorney during his trial.

Edited April 6, 2018 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, tv echo said:

However, with the way this show has been written, it wouldn't surprise me if something happened to Jean Loring and Black Siren (posing as E1 Laurel) ended up becoming Oliver's defense attorney during his trial.

Laurel: 

[tv echo]

Or, alternatively, now that DA Armand has been fired, she becomes the new DA and prosecutes Oliver. Maybe that's part of Diaz's plan.

Edited April 6, 2018 by tv echo