S05.E12: The Real Deal

[Ceindreadh]

3 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

 

Hopefully, with the reunion of the rest of S.H.I.E.L.D., they will find a neurosurgeon who is able to remove the block (that is, if Daisy actually wants the block removed) and perhaps a prosthetic surgeon who can fashion arms for Yo-Yo. Perhaps Tony Stark, who supplied a bionic arm for Misty Knight, will come to Yo-Yo's rescue, however if that were possible, wouldn't the Yo-Yo in the future have prosthetic arms?

I wonder how this present is going to deviate and veer off so that the future we saw, doesn't come to pass.

More than likely if future Yo-Yo had/has/will have prosthetic arms, her captors would take them from her when she was revived. No sense in leaving her a potential weapon. 

[teenj12]

Just wanna start by saying how proud I am of AOS for making it to the big 100.  Great acting all around, and especially the scenes with Daisy/Coulson. It was great seeing Mike/Deathlock again - especially considering that he was the team's first mission. I think I would of also liked some Daisy-Mike interaction, It would of been interesting to see him pointing out how ironic it is that she's become Quake when just five years ago in the pilot episode, she was pushing for him to become a superhero. Fitzsimmons wedding was fitting I guess, but that Deke reveal was ehhh. Should be a big shock to the two when they find out, but once they prevent the loop from coming true and save the future... shouldn't Deke erase from existence? Maybe since he's in the past now he'll be spared (unfortunately). 

[moonshine71]

47 minutes ago, teenj12 said:

Should be a big shock to the two when they find out, but once they prevent the loop from coming true and save the future... shouldn't Deke erase from existence? Maybe since he's in the past now he'll be spared (unfortunately). 

 "Should" is a word that really doesn't apply to time travel, since it's not an actual thing and there are no rules as to how it would actually work if it were. And the show hasn't listed out any concrete, in-universe rules as to how they believe it would work. By that logic, all the future humans they just liberated should have desperately prevented them from traveling back to save the world, because that will wipe them all from existence. It was pointless of Shield to even go through the motions as if they were helping them.

Edited March 11, 2018 by moonshine71

[Raja]

44 minutes ago, teenj12 said:

Just wanna start by saying how proud I am of AOS for making it to the big 100.  Great acting all around, and especially the scenes with Daisy/Coulson. It was great seeing Mike/Deathlock again - especially considering that he was the team's first mission. I think I would of also liked some Daisy-Mike interaction, It would of been interesting to see him pointing out how ironic it is that she's become Quake when just five years ago in the pilot episode, she was pushing for him to become a superhero. Fitzsimmons wedding was fitting I guess, but that Deke reveal was ehhh. Should be a big shock to the two when they find out, but once they prevent the loop from coming true and save the future... shouldn't Deke erase from existence? Maybe since he's in the past now he'll be spared (unfortunately). 

In the Back To The Future versions of time travel Deke would be deleted. I  think that they are going with the split timelines like Star Trek thus from Infinity War forward Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D should it be renewed doesn't fit perfectly  into the movie MCU any longer 

[Quark]

It was a good episode, but considering how awesome the rest of this season has been I was expecting more.

It would also have been nice to see Hunter again.

[VCRTracking]

My favorite line in the episode is Coulson about his imminent death: "I've come to terms with it. I got a second chance. I made a difference in a few people's lives. I don't want to be greedy. It's time to make space for somebody else."

[call me ishmael]

Okay is it just me or did the crack in space look like a nod to the crack in time/space from Dr. Who?  And although I realize it is a reach the comment about how Coulson's heart would "just stop" one day, was a lot like what Lorien said about Sheridan in Babylon 5?

[ohjoy]

I half-screamed, "It's the crack in Amy's bedroom wall!" when I first saw it. Considering all the space/time travel this show has done in its history, it seemed oddly fitting for the 100th episode.

[Affogato]

On 3/10/2018 at 5:52 PM, Raja said:

I just thought it was another wine cooler only to look it up after seeing comments on the last episode. It turns out it is still in Japan and Coors had a limited run in America last year. So I missed the joke of the bar tender dumping unsold stock on a first time drinker.

I seem to remember that Jane Espenson thought up the name for Zima during an early job as a marketing person. So a shout out. 

[Bunty]

On 3/12/2018 at 11:18 AM, Affogato said:

I seem to remember that Jane Espenson thought up the name for Zima during an early job as a marketing person. So a shout out. 

Yep. 

Quote

The company asked third-party marketing firm Lexicon Branding to give it a name; Jane Espenson, who would later become a staff writer on Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Game of Thrones, dubbed it Zima, the Russian word for "winter."

http://mentalfloss.com/article/76438/zomething-different-zima-story

[Gothish520]

On 3/9/2018 at 10:54 PM, Lobsel Vith said:

We had to deal with three and a half seasons of Ward. I don't see why we have to deal with a watered down version of Ward who we're supposed to excuse for slavery because of his upbringing the way the SWW fandom expected everyone to forgive Ward because of his childhood.

 

Ward was evil, a terrible person who did many terrible things. Deke is nowhere close to being any sort of version of Ward. He's a survivor who did one bad thing in a bad situation. 

[Ceindreadh]

On 14/3/2018 at 6:52 AM, Gothish520 said:

Ward was evil, a terrible person who did many terrible things. Deke is nowhere close to being any sort of version of Ward. He's a survivor who did one bad thing in a bad situation. 

One bad thing that we know about because it affected the team. 

Dont get me wrong though, I don’t think he’s irredeemable. He was in a bad situation and doing what he felt he had to do to survive and I think he deserves a second chance. 

[Humbugged]

On 3/10/2018 at 3:13 AM, SnoGirl said:

Ahh! Okay, I remember that. Wonder if he’s going to stick around...

In real life he is married to Dichen Lachman . There is a bunch of pics of him hanging out with Mo and Jed on her IG page at family events and dinners

[jhlipton]

On 3/9/2018 at 7:31 PM, Lobsel Vith said:

time that could have been spent on a marginalized character like Trip

Don't blame the show; blame the actor.  BJ Britt has been busy since first cast as DeathLok: On TV shows like UnReal, Pitch and Being Mary Jane, and in movies like Behind Enemy Lines.

[Raja]

7 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Don't blame the show; blame the actor.  BJ Britt has been busy since first cast as DeathLok: On TV shows like UnReal, Pitch and Being Mary Jane, and in movies like Behind Enemy Lines.

Besides BJ Britt got his Triplett call back in the Framework pod in what was probably planned, but left unstated, as a possible series finale. That J. August Richards, who has Kevin (Probably) Saves The World in production as Deathlok was the first mission for Coulson's team makes him perfect for a 100th episode

[AKA...CJ86]

I love Ward... I Iove GoodWard, I love BadWard, I love HydraWard, I love SquidWard... for a brief sec, I almost wish Hive was Ward... swoon...

Just as they are married, I worry the inevitable will happen, by season's end, one of Fitz and Simmons will be dead...

Hated Lash at the time, but got the feels seeing him again...

I don't ever need to see any blues ever again on this show...

[Lobsel Vith]

On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 1:04 AM, jhlipton said:

Don't blame the show; blame the actor.  BJ Britt has been busy since first cast as DeathLok: On TV shows like UnReal, Pitch and Being Mary Jane, and in movies like Behind Enemy Lines.

I blame the show, and this kind of thinking was used to justify killing off Trip the first time, where some people simply assumed it was to accommodate BJ Britt despite the fact that he had given at least two separate interviews where he said he was completely unaware that he was going to be killed off. There's no evidence that the show was going to make a genuine effort to do right by Trip, and I'm not going to pretend that trying to elicit sympathy for Ward - in an anti-Nazi storyline, no less - isn't repugnant. His SWW fanbase trying to woobify him was bad enough.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Lobsel Vith

[Froippi]

7 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

I blame the show, and this kind of thinking was used to justify killing off Trip the first time, where some people simply assumed it was to accommodate BJ Britt despite the fact that he had given at least two separate interviews where he said he was completely unaware that he was going to be killed off. There's no evidence that the show was going to make a genuine effort to do right by Trip, and I'm not going to pretend that trying to elicit sympathy for Ward - in an anti-Nazi storyline, no less - isn't repugnant. His SWW fanbase trying to woobify him was bad enough.

didn't that Ward fan base say the show would not last without them or am I wrong

[Lobsel Vith]

On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 2:52 AM, Gothish520 said:

Ward was evil, a terrible person who did many terrible things. Deke is nowhere close to being any sort of version of Ward. He's a survivor who did one bad thing in a bad situation. 

Deke sold a person into slavery for money, and then flip-flopped on his reasons for doing so, including using a Ward excuse about his childhood when confronted by Coulson. Let's not act as if he simply left the toilet seat up. What he did was monstrous. And let's not forget that this wasn't the only thing he did for Kasius, as he admitted that he did other work for him as well, so it's not as if there may not have been other victims.

Given that we've met characters like Tess, Flint, and Ben, Deke's childhood is not an excuse for his behavior. I'm honestly surprised at this fandom's willingness to hold other characters accountable for much more minor slights yet are willing to give a huge pass to slavery, of all things.

On ‎3‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 4:35 AM, Ceindreadh said:

One bad thing that we know about because it affected the team. 

Dont get me wrong though, I don’t think he’s irredeemable. He was in a bad situation and doing what he felt he had to do to survive and I think he deserves a second chance. 

Deke admitted to working for Kasius, so I certainly think what he's done is irredeemable. And this show did not need a watered down, one-dimensional version of Ward, and you can only milk the 'newcomer' aspect for so long before it becomes tiresome. I'm also not inclined to treat slavery as something that should simply be brushed aside because the show has handwaved the consequences of what Deke did simply because he's a walking easter egg for FitzSimmons fans.

3 hours ago, Froippi said:

didn't that Ward fan base say the show would not last without them or am I wrong

Yes, that is one of the things they said.

[Froippi]

1 hour ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Deke sold a person into slavery for money, and then flip-flopped on his reasons for doing so, including using a Ward excuse about his childhood when confronted by Coulson. Let's not act as if he simply left the toilet seat up. What he did was monstrous. And let's not forget that this wasn't the only thing he did for Kasius, as he admitted that he did other work for him as well, so it's not as if there may not have been other victims.

Given that we've met characters like Tess, Flint, and Ben, Deke's childhood is not an excuse for his behavior. I'm honestly surprised at this fandom's willingness to hold other characters accountable for much more minor slights yet are willing to give a huge pass to slavery, of all things.

Deke admitted to working for Kasius, so I certainly think what he's done is irredeemable. And this show did not need a watered down, one-dimensional version of Ward, and you can only milk the 'newcomer' aspect for so long before it becomes tiresome. I'm also not inclined to treat slavery as something that should simply be brushed aside because the show has handwaved the consequences of what Deke did simply because he's a walking easter egg for FitzSimmons fans.

Yes, that is one of the things they said.

Ok thanks idk that particular fan base had to be ignore sometimes idk what else they said though

[Lobsel Vith]

1 hour ago, Froippi said:

Ok thanks idk that particular fan base had to be ignore sometimes idk what else they said though

It's an issue that they always frame Ward's victims as the bad guys for not going out of their way to turn Ward into a good guy. Fitz is bad for wanting Ward dead after he sustained brain damage because of his murder attempt, Daisy is bad for shooting Ward after he kidnapped her, even Bobbi is bad despite Ward torturing her. It's an issue that they acted like Ward popped puppies and peed rainbows despite being a villain, to the point they vilified Ward's victims to make Ward seem better.

It's why the way some people try to whitewash what Deke did rubs me the wrong way - it's something people had to deal with for years on this show (and still do in certain places where the Ward fans remain, like reddit), and seeing a repeat is more than a little annoying.

[Jacks-Son]

1 hour ago, Lobsel Vith said:

It's an issue that they always frame Ward's victims as the bad guys for not going out of their way to turn Ward into a good guy. Fitz is bad for wanting Ward dead after he sustained brain damage because of his murder attempt, Daisy is bad for shooting Ward after he kidnapped her, even Bobbi is bad despite Ward torturing her. It's an issue that they acted like Ward popped puppies and peed rainbows despite being a villain, to the point they vilified Ward's victims to make Ward seem better.

I guess I've never come across the love for Ward. Don't have a Reddit account, nor Facebook, or Twitter. Ward was an asshole. He started out supposedly good but it was revealed that he had a dark side. What's to love about him? Daisy was right to shoot him and everyone was right to try to kill him. The fight between Daisy and Hive was classic and I'm glad Lash dusted his ass. Why all the love? He deserved to die and I hope they never bring him back. I was pissed when AoS kept finding ways to bring him back. I have no problem with the actor, it's just the character that sucked.

[MisterGlass]

On the whole, a touching episode.  I liked the explanation of Coulson's condition, and the simple tie in to the origins of the show.

I didn't quite see Mike Peterson as the right person for Coulson to manifest Coulson's feelings about death.  Were Ron Glass still with us I think this would have been his role, since he was actually the doctor responsible.  In his absence, I think it should have been a different familiar face with more of an emotional or authoritative tie to Coulson.  For example, the cellist (whose name escapes me at the moment).  Or Maria Hill.  Or (impossible as it would be) Nick Fury.

I was waiting for some explanation of how Coulson was authorized to officiate a wedding, and they did throw one out there.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 3/9/2018 at 11:21 PM, SnoGirl said:

4) I thought it was interesting that Lash appeared as Coulson’s fear. Hive too, but I wish that had been Ward. I know, I complain about him coming back all the time, but this time I think it would have been earned. Coulson was able to always save his “daughters” but his “sons” were not always as lucky. Ward was the ones he lost. I wish we had seen more Coulson “failures.” The female agent from season one with the bomb in the eye. Blake, Trip, Victoria, or Rosalind.

I am pretty much indifferent at this point to the show ever getting movie actors to show up, but it would have been awesome if they had shelled out the money to get Tom Hiddleston to show up whe  Coulson was facing his biggest fears.

Overall it was a decent episode but the whole "your life is all a dream" thing didn’t really work for me. Since there have actually been a few times where the show lines up with the movies (the fall of SHIELD, the helicarrier in Sokovia) the audience knows it isn't his dream. For that type of story to work you have to get the audience wondering. 

[Joe Hellandback]

1. Rather reminded me of the Buffy ep 'Normal Again'

2. Speaking of which we now have a petite blonde UFC on the show? But her mother is the anti-Joyce? Or Professor Walsh?

3. Nice to see J August again.

4. What is it with the Whedonverse and people getting their arms cut off?

5. You'd think they'd have shown a little more compassion to the dead destroyer's crew, maybe sing 'Eternal Father' or something? Still, nice to see Jake Busey, hope we have him again. 

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

1. Rather reminded me of the Buffy ep 'Normal Again'

2. Speaking of which we now have a petite blonde UFC on the show? But her mother is the anti-Joyce? Or Professor Walsh?

3. Nice to see J August again.

4. What is it with the Whedonverse and people getting their arms cut off?

5. You'd think they'd have shown a little more compassion to the dead destroyer's crew, maybe sing 'Eternal Father' or something? Still, nice to see Jake Busey, hope we have him again. 

I would say General Hale in this context is more Professor Walsh as the latest Hydra head to emerge, who happened to raise "Buffy" to be the slayer as the anti-Joyce when she was just a Hydra sleeper agent in the USAF.

The arms, or an arm, or an artificial Yellow Jacket insect limb, in many of the MCU movies wasn't said to be a Whedon thing but a slight homage to Star Wars and Luke Skywalker's traumatic amputation in The Empire Strikes Back.  In this case though it was an opportunity to make Yo-Yo like her legacy comic book character who lost her arms in a Secret Warriors issue. 

[Kel Varnsen]

9 hours ago, Raja said:

I would say General Hale in this context is more Professor Walsh as the latest Hydra head to emerge, who happened to raise "Buffy" to be the slayer as the anti-Joyce when she was just a Hydra sleeper agent in the USAF.

Speaking of Hale and her being USAF, how shitty is security screening in the military if someone can rise to the rank of Bgeneral without anyone noticing that she was a Hydra agent basically since birth. Especially considering it has been years since the whole Hydra controlling SHIELD thing was revealed.

[TVSpectator]

29 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Speaking of Hale and her being USAF, how shitty is security screening in the military if someone can rise to the rank of Bgeneral without anyone noticing that she was a Hydra agent basically since birth. Especially considering it has been years since the whole Hydra controlling SHIELD thing was revealed.

Well, it seemed that SHIELD had the same problem before the Winter Soldier. Remember Agent Jasper Sitwell? Both Hale and him went to the same Hydra High School (and wore identical Hydra logo uniforms) and no one at SHIELD noticed that he was secretly Hydra or that his high school was Hydra High Boarding  School?

[Raja]

As we saw a Four Star was caught by Talbot while General Hale's cover held. It waa not just the USAF and S.H.I.E.L.D every agency in the world, except in Wakanda maybe,   from the Soviets whose Hydra division took the Winter Soldier to every US Institutions was infiltrated . S.H.I.E.L.D having the best technology and the platform to kill billions along with being an international agency was among the few agencies disbanded entirely 

[Kel Varnsen]

One would hope that in a world where entire governments and intelligence agencies were infiltrated by Nazi's and in the same year the Vice President  of the US was so badly comprimised that he tried to kill the POTUS agencies might tighten their security protocols.

[Raja]

Well they were increasing  screening, General Talbot was a big part of the US efforts. The part actually put on screen while the other shows and movies ignored the post Winter Soldier dehydration of the world's institutions 

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

One would hope that in a world where entire governments and intelligence agencies were infiltrated by Nazi's and in the same year the Vice President  of the US was so badly comprimised that he tried to kill the POTUS agencies might tighten their security protocols.

Wasn't it even mentioned that the public doesn't trust SHIELD as well? I know that there exists a line from President Ellis, when he came onto the show in late Season 3, about how unlikely it is for him to revive SHIELD to the public because of the whole Winter Soldier event or something.

8 minutes ago, Raja said:

Well they were increasing  screening, General Talbot was a big part of the US efforts. The part actually put on screen while the other shows and movies ignored the post Winter Soldier dehydration of the world's institutions 

The movies didn't ignore the Winter Solider Hydra reveal at all, IMO. Instead, it was brought up again, in Civil War where Ross talks about how the Avengers hasn't had any oversight in years. As with the other shows, well, why hasn't Coulson send any SHIELD members to investigate who is the Devil of Hell's Kitchen, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, the Hand/Danny Rand, etc...?

Edited May 24, 2018 by TVSpectator

[Raja]

18 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

Wasn't it even mentioned that the public doesn't trust SHIELD as well? I know that there exists a line from President Ellis, when he came onto the show in late Season 3, about how unlikely it is for him to revive SHIELD to the public because of the whole Winter Soldier event or something.

The movies didn't ignore the Winter Solider Hydra reveal at all, IMO. Instead, it was brought up again, in Civil War where Ross talks about how the Avengers hasn't had any oversight in years. As with the other shows, well, why hasn't Coulson send any SHIELD members to investigate who is the Devil of Hell's Kitchen, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, the Hand/Danny Rand, etc...?

Hydra being looked for versus the Avengers not having oversight are two different issues. Not having a mostly vigilante organization S.H.I.E.L.D check out a specific 084 on screen with the focus on Inhumans, Ghost Rider is yet another issue 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Good to see I was not the one who thought of Normal Again while watching this episode.

And of course the writers had to ruin a bit the one truly happy moment in like 20 episodes. That git Deke is the grandson of Fitz and Simmons? Wouldn't mind it too much if the future is changed so he never exists, to be honest. All throughout the wedding I kept thinking "maybe this is a hallucination too, the writers don't seem to believe that these characters deserve any happy moments".  Especially when Fitz said "I don't deserve you, Jemma" I half-expected him to become a runaway groom and for us to find out it was all a hallucination because we have seen so many contrived obstacles to their relationship. Yo-yo's arms were cut and then they learn Coulson is dying. But that's not all, their greatest fears are coming for them! I have rarely see a bunch of characters in a bigger need of a break. And lots of hugs. That said, I would have enjoyed seeing May face her greatest fear - dancing! 🙂

I admit, I did chuckle a bit when Coulson fell during yet another motivating speech, those speeches of his are my least favourite part of the show. I loved it when May told him "Who I waste my time on is for me to decide".

Gotta say, I enjoy the hell out of the acting performances in this show, I grumble a lot about plot details, I admit, but I keep watching several episodes every day. Even Chloe Bennet who wasn't very good in the first season has been killing it for quite some time now. Also, unlike some other shows that shall remained unnamed, this show doesn't just tell us how much the members of the team mean for each other - it shows us, again and again. Which is why Coulson's speeches on the topic are kind of pointless most of the time.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Jack Shaftoe

[swanpride]

The reason why I don't quite mind the never-ending drama of Fitzsimmons is that it is most of the times external. The period aside when Jemma was struggling to sort out her feelings for Fitz (which was completely understandable), they always struggle against something not really against each other. In other shows, they would delay the "will they/won't they" plot with misunderstandings and pointless drama to a degree that you soon ask yourself if they even SHOULD. But with Fitzsimmons, it is always them against the world and if they are at odds with each other, it is always for understandable reasons.

[Jack Shaftoe]

59 minutes ago, swanpride said:

The reason why I don't quite mind the never-ending drama of Fitzsimmons is that it is most of the times external.

External, yes, but also contrived to often ridiculous extent in order to cause as much pain as possible without killing one of them. Jemma is marooned on a supposedly barren planet but of course she happens to meet and eventually sleep with a conveniently placed man just so Fitz can angst some. Apparently him thinking that he probably would never see her again was just not torturous enough for the writers. Then Fitz is kidnapped, forced to help AIDA in the Framework but that wasn't enough either, AIDA has to be in love and obsessed with him too. He finally gets back to the real world, reunites with Jemma and that same day (or was it a day later?) she disappears for six months again! Because the prophecy conveniently needs Fitz to take the long way to the future for no apparent reason.

All the while, the characters just won't shut up about "the universe" putting obstacles between Fitz and Simmons, as if the writers hanging lampshade on the problem makes it better somehow. So yeah, while it's nice that there are almost no romantic false leads and random bouts of jealousy and break-ups, it would have been even nicer if the writers hadn't swallowed hook, line and sinker the stupid Hollywood idea that happy couples are boring.

[swanpride]

Well, they did have their happy periods. In case you haven't noticed: They had a happy an healthy relationship without obstacles all the way from the end of season 3 through the whole Ghost Rider Arc.

[Jack Shaftoe]

The Ghost Rider arc? You mean the one where the writers couldn't wait for even 20 minutes of screen time to pass before introducing yet another source of FitzSimmons angst - Fitz hiding AIDA's existence?  I am not saying they never had any happy moments, just that the ratio is heavily skewed towards "the universe" getting in the way in the most melodramatic ways possible. And it's not like other couples in the show have fared much better. Bobbi and Hunter were the only couple which seemed to have more fun than angst and they were written out for a spin-off which didn't materialise.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Jack Shaftoe

[swanpride]

There was zero angst. honestly, this didn't even last five minutes, Jemma immediately recognized Aida for what she was and she understood that Fitz did it because of her lie detector tests.

[TVSpectator]

20 hours ago, swanpride said:

Well, they did have their happy periods. In case you haven't noticed: They had a happy an healthy relationship without obstacles all the way from the end of season 3 through the whole Ghost Rider Arc.

I mean I guess you could call it happy but Simmons was supposed to have been tramatized because of a) being stuck on an alien planet that had no sunlight for 6 months, b) loading Will (granted she got over this pretty quickly), c) having Give tried to hunt her and Will down while on that alien planet, and d) (I am guessing) she was either tortured or was threaten to be tortured by that Hydra goon to get info our of her and Fitz when they were caputered. I guess she didn't have to deal with any of that between Seasons 3 and 4 and instead not only learned a new skill of reading people but became a master in it as well.

Edited March 25, 2020 by TVSpectator