S04.E06: The Laws Of Gods And Men 2014.05.11

[Mya Stone]

 

Stannis and Davos set sail with a new strategy. Dany meets with supplicants. Tyrion faces down his father in the throne room.

 

Reminder: There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into a potential spoiler you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read all the books to date. Any information from unpublished books, such as preview chapters should be in spoiler tags.

[Mya Stone]

I tend to think Shae was all Cersei's machination, not Tywin's. 

Also, I hereby dub him Darth Dinklage. 

[Izzyboy]

Really enjoyed that episode.  And of course Tywin had a plan in the back of his mind  He's always playing a long game, and getting Jamie out of the Kingsguard and in Castlerly Rock is exactly that.  Great tension with the trial, Dinklage's performance was really well done I thought.

 

LOVED seeing Braavos in the opening credits!  I've felt they've been a little lax in updating the opening credits this season, but it was great seeing that appear as a new location.

 

Definitely a deviation with Yara/Ramsey/Reek, but I enjoyed it and it added a change of pace to that storyline and gave Ramsey a valid reason for prettying up Reek for his future plans.

[Mya Stone]

Yeah, the Theon/Yara stuff was a deviation, but I think it adds another layer of fucked-up-ness to the entire Reek at Moat Cailin ordeal...not to mention further shows how very broken he is, and also maybe helps to set up Yara claiming the Seastone Chair as her own without worrying about stepping over Theon? I don't know. I'm just glad they didn't kill her.

[Independent George]

I love it when they focus the episode on fewer locations and characters. Jaime offering to leave the Kingsguard is a brilliant change, and his scene with Tywin was excellent. It succeeds because (1) it's completely in character for both him and Tywin, (2) it implies that it's all a Xanatos Gambit for Tywin - and subsequently makes him even more of a badass than ever, (3) it gives us a hope spot before the conclusion, and teases the idea of Tyrion's reunion with an all-grown-up Jon Snow, and then (4) punches us in the gut afterwards.

 

Are they going for Tyrion playing Chessmaster by anticipating Gregor being named Cersei's champion, and trying to maneuver Oberyn into being his champion? If so, I really don't know how I feel about that. That just seems like too much - I think D&D play favorites with Tyrion and Dany too much already, and Tyrion doesn't need to be built up even more. This should be Tyrion at his most desperate and irrational. 

 

I don't like the way the spinny-map thing goes to Braavos; it makes it really hard to gauge direction and distance. It makes Braavos look way further from Westeros than it is based on the maps I've seen. 

 

Just remember kids, Tywin always has a plan, if his damn children (and grandchildren) would just go along. He did kind of overplay his hand when he used Shae, though. Tyrion and Tywin have been down that particular road before, so I don't blame the Imp for getting emotional.

 

Except I don't think Tywin used Shae - I think it was Cersei.

[Mya Stone]

Are they going for Tyrion playing Chessmaster by anticipating Gregor being named Cersei's champion, and trying to maneuver Oberyn into being his champion? If so, I really don't know how I feel about that. That just seems like too much - I think D&D play favorites with Tyrion and Dany too much already, and Tyrion doesn't need to be built up even more. This should be Tyrion at his most desperate and irrational. 

 

 

 

No, I really took it as Oberyn would have voluteered no matter who was Cersei's champion. That leaning forward, eyes lighting up? He must have thought it was Christmas come early - I think he would have gladly volunteered even if it meant killing Jaime. 

[elzin]

The Asha/Yara stuff was... not good.  Mostly because I hate the Greyjoys and Boltons pretty equally, even if she is one of my favorite characters despite her Greyjoy-ness.  Who do you root for, you know?

 

I don't like all of the changes done this season, mostly I think for change's sake. The Jaime stuff was a big deviation, but I loved it. I still have tears in my eyes, and I haven't had heartwarming tears from this show since... well, maybe ever.  It was a change that I can get behind and since they've derailed Jaime so much, it kind of puts him back on his redemption track, shows how much he loved Tyrion too. They really needed to show how it's just Cersei and Tywin alive who hate him, as even Tommen seemed to give him a look of pity instead of contempt. 

 

Oberyn was fantastic this episode too. 

I've been harboring some crazy theories that Varys might end up on the throne somehow or that's his endgame. What he said to Oberyn and how he turned to stare at the throne did NOT quell those tinfoil theories of mine.

[Independent George]

Yeah, the Theon/Yara stuff was a deviation, but I think it adds another layer of fucked-up-ness to the entire Reek at Moat Cailin ordeal...not to mention further shows how very broken he is, and also maybe helps to set up Yara claiming the Seastone Chair as her own without worrying about stepping over Theon? I don't know. I'm just glad they didn't kill her.

 

It was good for dramatic purposes, but it continues an issue I've had with the TV adaptation - namely, nobody in either continent seems to have the slightest clue about security. Just as with Old!Daario managing to sneak into Dany's tent in S3, it just makes the defenders look like complete idiots. Nobody should be able to do that unless he's got some secret abilities (Jaqen); if you try to analyze things in real-world terms instead of TV terms, the only explanation is that the defenders are morons. 

[seamusk]

I don't like the way the spinny-map thing goes to Braavos; it makes it really hard to gauge direction and distance. It makes Braavos look way further from Westeros than it is based on the maps I've seen. 

 

I agree on that point but I love how it goes from Braavos to Mereen.  It really helped provide the geographical context there. I wonder if it was a choice between the two.  It's been spinning differently from the wall all season to get to slaver's bay.  The addition of Braavos, even if for a made up meeting, seems to have been the impetus for the shift in how the intro spins away from the wall. 

 

I thought that this was a fantastic episode.  I'm unsure how I feel about the Bolton/Greyjoy changes until I see where they lead.  I was pretty much ok with it, but I didn't like how Yara leaving struck a chord of tucking her tail between her legs.  I found it disheartening because I think she's tougher than that (though I recognize the difficulty of her situation). 

 

But alas, Dinklage was amazing during the trial.  And really the whole trial felt very true to the books at it's heart.  I knew they would do the walk out with Shae and it was as dramatic as I expected.  Really really impressed with that.  For what it's worth, my non-book reading girlfriend was so upset that it ended when it did.  She was sooooo into the trial.

[mac123x]

I also didn't care for the Yara stuff, but mainly because it was yet another go-nowhere shaggy dog story, comparable to the Craster's Keep filler of the previous two episodes.  End of seaon 3, she vows to take the fastest ship and go rescue Theon.  She does it, but doesn't rescue Theon.  She (presumably) is going back to the Iron Islands and will be there for the Euron / Victarion / Aeron / Whoeveron drama after Balon takes a dirt nap.  I guess there's a minor character development on her part since she no longer wants to rescue Theon, but it's mostly a reset.

 

Was that the future Mr. Daenerys berating Dany for her horrible judgement in crucifying those 163 people?  I'm having a hard time caring about her storyline.

 

Poor Mace, gets no respect in the Small Council meetings, Tywin even has him run an errand.  "Fetch me a quill and paper" heh.  They do seem to be much more aware of what's going on across the world than they are in the books.  Dany must be posting selfies on Facebook.  "Me on the Great Pyramid of Meereen.  Me and Drogon after he's scorched an entire flock of goats.  Me and  Ser Jorah posing as crucified Great Masters."

 

Are we to infer that Davos won over the Iron Bankers?  You can always count of Davos having the best, logical arguments. 

 

I must have been a Braavosi whore in a previous life, because I said "bring me my brown pants" the same time they did.

 

As readily Tywin agreed to Jaime's compromise, he must have already been planning on sending Tyrion to the Wall, and basically saw Jaime's offer to go back to Casterly Rock as getting something for nothing.  Is the deal shot now since Tyrion demanded trial by combat?

[Mya Stone]

That was Mr. Daenerys, aka Hizdahr something something. 

It's time for me to reread the last 2 books. It's been awhile. 

[Independent George]

My expectations are probably too high, but I do get annoyed when they fall back on action-scene tropes, particularly when it directly contradicts the great work they've done deconstructing it earlier. Case in point:

 

1. In S1, Jorah defeats a much younger, stronger and faster Dothraki warrior when his armor catches the Dothraki's sword, allowing Jorah to calmly slash his face in two.

2. The Hound goads Arya into stabbing him with Needle which deflects off his armor. He then mocks Syrio, saying he lost to a mediocrity like Meryn Trant because he didn't have any armor on. 

3. In S4E1, Oberyn tells a Lannister soldier that a lonsgword is not a good choice in close quarters.

4. In S4E5, Jon gets his ass kicked in no small part because he's using a bastard sword in close quarters against a guy with two knives. He can't use his sword's longer reach in the tight spaces.

 

So far, so good, right? Then we get tonight, where:

5. A bare chested Ramsay charges into the fray against a bunch of heavily armored Ironborn. The Ironborn have shields, steel breastplates, helmets, and short axes; the Bolton soldiers have leather armor and longswords. All the ironborn have to do is charge with their shields and swing their short axes in tight arcs against their poorly equipped foes, and they'd break through with barely any casualties. Instead, it winds up being an even fight, and the Ironborn have to withdraw. 

[Hanahope]

I don't understand why Yara didn't sink her sword into Ramsay's soft flesh in the good minute it would take him to unlock the dog cages, with his back turned.  I mean really.

 

It was nice seeing a new city in the opening credits.  I wasn't expecting to see Braavos until next season, so that was a treat.

 

Obviously, Littlefinger got the necklace back to Kingslanding in time for the trial.  Or there was more than one necklace made.

 

Yup, Cesei messed up Tywin's grand plan to get rid of Tyrion and get Jamie back.

[halgia]

I've been harboring some crazy theories that Varys might end up on the throne somehow or that's his endgame. What he said to Oberyn and how he turned to stare at the throne did NOT quell those tinfoil theories of mine.

I know, right? But I think it was probably just about him getting someone good on the throne, i.e. (F?)Aegon.

 

Oberyn was great this ep, and the trial was awesome. After the end, my unspoiled roommate demanded to know who's going to represent him.

 

I liked the Braavos scenes. Mycroft was perfect for the role.

 

+100% to @Hanahope on why Ramsay didn't just get stabbed in the bare belly.

[LilWharveyGal]

Geez, just about the only thing that "trial" lacked was the Queen of Hearts shouting, "Off with her head!"

 

 

It's time for me to reread the last 2 books. It's been awhile.

 

I totally forgot there was a second Mr. Danaerys, so I'm right there with you.

[Brn2bwild]

That was Mr. Daenerys, aka Hizdahr something something. 

It's time for me to reread the last 2 books. It's been awhile. 

Hmm, much better looking than I imagined him from the books.

[quarks]

I knew what was coming, and Dinklage still had me gripping the edge of my couch. The man needs another Emmy.

 

And Brn2bwild, yes! I don't recall specifics, but my impression was that Mr. Daenerys 2 was not all that good looking. But I guess that's true for so many characters on this show.

[matilda76]

I agree with others here that Peter Dinklage really brought it this episode. Even his funny accent seemed to be behaving a bit more!

The looks between him and Shae were so heartbreaking. Her bed's made now.

 

This must've been Natalie Dormer's easiest paycheck ever. "Now Natalie, you just sit there and look nonplussed -- all day." They panned to her so much I was wondering if we were supposed to be inferring something from her reaction shots (like, "I know who did it"), but it was just distracting.

 

Ser Davos gets the job done again. The only thing missing was Shireen.

 

Dany's scenes bored me once again. Although I look forward to seeing a little more of Hizdahr, just for variety's sake. All of her stuff just seems very one-note to me lately; she's almost uniformly haughty and imperious. Dany is a much more interesting character when she shows her vulnerability...

[Rhondinella]

That WAS Mark Gatiss (aka Mycroft from Sherlock) playing the dude from the Iron Bank, right?  Can't find verification but it looked and sounded like him.

 

[ETA: I just checked the credits and, yes, it was him.  Cool!]

 

Also, yay for the return of Sallador Saan!!

 

Why did the whole courtroom seem so shocked that Tyrion asked for a trial by combat?  I mean, they had to know that was an option, right? I mean, it's apparently allowed by their laws, so didn't seem all that shocking, especially since it was clear the "evidence" was going against him.  I would have thought he would have been required to ask for that BEFORE the trial, though.  But what do I know of Westerosi law?

 

Glad that they did bring back Shae to testify, because that means they will show Tyrion killing her.  Some had speculated that when she left she wouldn't be coming back. But I couldn't imagine them not letting us see that particular scene play out.

[jellysalmon]

Yea that was him. 

 

This was the part of the book where I was like 

 

“Yo other Storm of Swords plot lines, I’m really happy for you, Imma let you finish but King's Landing had one of the best plot lines of all time…one of the best plot lines of all time!”

 

unfortunately, unlike the book I can't skip all the other plot lines' chapters until I get to the end of the book.

[jellysalmon]

Oops double posted. I'll edit this one to be a non-duplicate.

 

Was the implication that Ramsey killed that girl he was having sex with?

Edited May 12, 2014 by jellysalmon

[Meredith Quill]

That was Mr. Daenerys, aka Hizdahr something something. 

It's time for me to reread the last 2 books. It's been awhile. 

Hizdahr Zo Loraq - I think I spelled it right?

[RapBert]

Well, that Yara storyline ended fast! I can only imagine that when they were writing the scenes with Yara and Balon for the final episode of season 3, they said to themselves "Now we have this awesome cliffhanger of Yara assembling men to go and rescue Theon, we can write some great scenes in season 4!", only to realise later that there wasn't much to that storyline so they ended it fairly quickly.

 

Also, didn't Roose tell Ramsay to get rid of the Ironborn in Moat Cailin ASAP in episode 2? Has he been sitting around all this time? What a lazy bastard. Not to mention Locke got his orders at the same time, and he travelled to the Wall, joined the NW, went with Jon to Craster's and died while Ramsay has been doing fuck all.

 

All the scenes in Braavos were great. The show needs more Sallador Saan.

 

The trial was amazing. Especially the final scenes. Dinklage needs another Emmy.

 

 

Was the implication that Ramsey killed that girl he was having sex with?

 

I thought he was bloody from fighting the Ironborn, but hey, it's Ramsay, you never know.

Edited May 12, 2014 by RapBert

[GreyBunny]

Oops double posted. I'll edit this one to be a non-duplicate.

 

Was the implication that Ramsey killed that girl he was having sex with?

 

If so I missed it, I thought he was just really into a girl clawing her fingernails into him and that's where the marks came from.

I was so disappointed with Yara.  After her rousing speech and invasion of the castle, she just leaves him?  The guy had extreme Stockholm but did it never occur to any of the Ironborn to give Theon the Jessica Rabbit treatment and conk him over the head and fireman carry him out of there?  

Dinklage deserves another Emmy and I agree that when Oberyn heard the words "trial by combat" it was his birthday, Christmas, and the 4th of July all rolled into one.

 

I like show Hizdahr much better than the book version.  This guy seems thoughtful whereas the book guy was a dweeb.  

Dany is an ass.  After Hizdahr said his father opposed the crucifixion of the children she didn't even consider that she screwed up when she retaliated; her biggest complaint was having to listen to more petitioners.  She can go away and die any time.

 

Mycroft and Sallador Saan!  Yay!

 

Davos:  for a guy short a few fingers he's the best Hand ever!

 

 

 

So far, so good, right? Then we get tonight, where:

5. A bare chested Ramsay charges into the fray against a bunch of heavily armored Ironborn. The Ironborn have shields, steel breastplates, helmets, and short axes; the Bolton soldiers have leather armor and longswords. All the ironborn have to do is charge with their shields and swing their short axes in tight arcs against their poorly equipped foes, and they'd break through with barely any casualties. Instead, it winds up being an even fight, and the Ironborn have to withdraw.

 

No kidding!  What happened to the show's love letter to combat pragmatism?  The Ironborn are trained to fight on ships and other places with limited space.  In such close quarters as the kennels Yara and her men should have cleaned up in short order and Raven-mailed Ramsay to Roose a piece at a time.

Edited May 12, 2014 by GreyBunny

[yellowfred]

This must've been Natalie Dormer's easiest paycheck ever. "Now Natalie, you just sit there and look nonplussed -- all day." They panned to her so much I was wondering if we were supposed to be inferring something from her reaction shots (like, "I know who did it"), but it was just distracting.

 

I thought a couple of them were actually kind of humorous.  In particular, after Shae said that Tyrion killed Joffrey to get Sansa into bed, the look on Margaery's face seemed to say "oh, that's what it would have taken."  On the more serious side, it seemed, at least to me, like she was concerned when she realized how thoroughly Sansa was implicated.  I think she can justify to herself letting Tyrion stand trial, maybe because she figures that Tywin won't let him actually be executed, but with that much actual evidence agaisnt Sansa, she has to know that Cercei's not going to let her go.  

 

Overall, I really liked the way the trial played out.  I think it made a lot of sense for Tywin to kind of see what he could get out of Jaime before letting him in on the plan.  I think he always intended to sort of let Cercei have her trial and then send Tyrion off to the wall, and getting what he wanted from Jaime was just a bonus.  Also, I thought that, between her clothes and her whole demeanor, I could totally buy that Shae had been sufficiently persuaded to testify against Tyrion (and Sansa, a little bit), which was something I wasn't sure they'd be able to pull off.  

 

I have to say, though, I didn't buy Tyrion's rant about being judged for his dwarfism.  Not that I don't think it was in character, because he does pin a lot of his problems on that, but the way it played out, it seemed like the direction of the scene was that he was right, which I don't think he was.  Westeros is obviously not an especially dwarf-friendly place, but I'm pretty sure that anyone who openly threatened the king as often as he did would probably be on trial if that king was murdered.

[GreyBunny]

It think Tyrion was right because his father blames him for his wife's death (had he not been a dwarf with a large head Joanna might have survived childbirth).  As a result, Tywin dismissed him repeatedly his entire life and refused to acknowledge him as the rightful heir to Casterly Rock.  Plus having having produced someone so stunted and (in the book ugly) is an affront to Lannister beauty and pride.  It seems simplistic but it is the root of the problems between the two men or pretty damn near close to it.  

 

ETA:  On Jorah - I'm going to guess one of Varys's little birds in Meereen is going to get the message to Dany that Jorah was a spy.  I think that is what leads to his banishment.  In season 1 Varys was adamant that Jorah was in his pocket, I don't think he's entirely pleased that Jorah has gone native.  If not Varys, then Tywin could get the message out, it would serve his purposes if one of her closest advisors and warriors was untrustworthy, it would destabilize her support and make her at least a little paranoid.

Edited May 12, 2014 by GreyBunny

[DigitalCount]

That cold rage, that crazy-eyed rage. Dinklage and Dance are unstoppable.

 

Hizdahr seems younger than I read him to be.

 

Also, I thought the look on Margaery's face was poorly-veiled guilt. She may not be a Tyrion cheerleader, but she knew him to be innocent, and she knew Sansa to be innocent. I think she was fighting against her better nature to say something, because she knows she can't explain why she knows that they're innocent.

 

Ugh, the Oberyn scenes were too good and painful at the same time. I was so weary of backing the wrong horse by this point, and then Oberyn rode in like some sort of magical hero character and I was like FINALLY! and then, well.
 

Looks like Shae is going to be adhering to the books, and they substituted "lion" for "giant," which I figured they would do. I did like how, while a bunch of people testified against him, she was the only one to outright lie on the stand and humiliate him, which may play into her eventual fate. The other testimonies implicated him (with his own words, no less) but Shae made up stuff to get him executed and made him look like a laughingstock in what could have been his final days in the land of the living. I can buy him seeing red when he realizes the depth of the sham.

[dr pepper]

Agreed with most of above.

 

Yes, the court scene was amazing, and very much true to the book in both sense and word. And Tyrion's sudden change in demeanor was perfect. At least it perfectly expresses what i got out of the book, namely that in a way he was still protecting Shae. In this case, protecting her from further damaging her own honor by continuing to lie, even as he suffered hurt from her betrayal. Of course, since hardly anyone in that world can conceive of a prostitute having honor, let alone care about it, it is a gesture will go unnoticed.

 

I also agree that the use of Shae was down to Cercei and that Tywin immediately realized that his stage managing had gone awry.

 

As for the vikings versus torturers, i find it an acceptable substitute for what was in the book. But i agree that Yara, or for that matter any of her men, could have put an axe in Ramsey before he could release the dogs and that the battle should have been more one sided anyway. Plus, from my reading of the books, the vikings would be a lot less afraid of the dogs than most people. They are after all, brought up on a a tough code, and are too well armored to be taken down by a single bite. Plus, having seen the depth of her brother's trauma, Yara would have been likely to mercy kill him.

 

In any case, it certainly beats

freezing to death in a Winter so severe that even the Red God can't thaw it out

.

 

The Iron Bank scene was also very well done. And note the crux of the argument: Tywin, the only competent ruler left in Kingslanding, is 67, a reminder to us viewers of the limits of pretech medecine.

[GreyBunny]

I just noticed that Missandei spit out Dany's long and ridiculous list of titles for the goatherd.  I hope she doesn't have to do that before every or almost every petitioner.  Imagine repeating that crap 200 times a day, what a pain in the ass that would be.

Edited May 12, 2014 by GreyBunny

[mad_typist]

I agree with most of what's already been said here. Dinklage reminded us why he won the Emmy in the first place - that speech was incredible. And Charles Dance continues to impress - I'm already starting to get depressed that he won't survive the season. I do wonder if they'll show Shae in his bed at the end.

 

I'm fine with the restructuring of the Ironborn storyline in general, but I agree with the other poster that the attempt to make Theon's rescue "action-y" really fell flat for me. While I suppose it's a good visual ("Hey, this dude is wacko!") showing Ramsey fighting shirtless, I also don't think Yara would have backed down and run away. The odds were almost even, and they had superior arms/armor to their foes.

 

I'm getting concerned at how much they're accelerating Dany's storyline. What will she have left to do by next season?

[AzureOwl]

Watching Tyrion’s trial, I was once again amazed at how half-truths and facts taken out of context are better tools for deception than any outright lie.

 

I we look at all the testimony, it was almost all true, but with missing pieces of information that completely changed the meaning of things.

 

Hmm, much better looking than I imagined him from the books.

 

I always wondered what criteria the producers used to decide which characters would get a beauty upgrade from the books and which ones a downgrade.

Edited May 12, 2014 by AzureOwl

[SFoster21]

 

Watching Tyrion’s trial, I was once again amazed at how half-truths and facts taken out of context are better tools for deception than any outright lie.

 

 

Wordsworth said it best: "A truth that's told with bad intent

                                        Beats all the lies you can invent."

 

[matilda76]

 

Also, I thought the look on Margaery's face was poorly-veiled guilt. She may not be a Tyrion cheerleader, but she knew him to be innocent, and she knew Sansa to be innocent. I think she was fighting against her better nature to say something, because she knows she can't explain why she knows that they're innocent.

 

 

 

I didn't really pick that up just from looking at her; I can pick that up knowing the context in which she finds herself there. I'll have to watch it again and really look at her face. If her job this time was to sit there and look inscrutable, then job done -- at least IMO. :-)

[mac123x]

Also, didn't Roose tell Ramsay to get rid of the Ironborn in Moat Cailin ASAP in episode 2?

 

Ramsay is using the same calendar Mance and Stannis are using.

 

The guy had extreme Stockholm but did it never occur to any of the Ironborn to give Theon the Jessica Rabbit treatment and conk him over the head and fireman carry him out of there? 

 

They did invade the Dreadfort by climbing the walls.  If they were leaving the same way, they’d need Theon conscious and cooperative to climb back down the ropes, so I’ll give them a pass on that one.

[jeansheridan]

If you need a fussy banker Myecroft will do very well.  What cameo role could Cumberbatch do?  Tree Man in Bran' s plot?

 

The trial felt procedural to me and dull.  But we did have payoff for the sweeter Shae.  Because she has been kinder than the books her anger at Tyrion and betrayal of their intimacy hurt all the more.  She denied their feelings in the cruelest way but I still felt her pain.  I can see Tyrion killing her now.  He is unhinged.  Jaime was great.  Nice to see him trying so hard.  When he breaks out Tyrion it will felt earned.  Last resort plan.

 

I love Yara but that was a crap sequence.  She and Ramsey met too soon.  I am also surprised she told her men about the mutilation.  TMI.  

[OakGoblinFly]

This episode was a very mixed bag for me.  I loved seeing Braavos appear on the opening map sequence and I enjoyed the scene with the Iron Bankers.  I thought everything Kings Landing was fantastic.  Too bad the rest of the episode was bogged down with Dany and Ramsey Snow – so very, very boring.  However, Alfie Allen continues to be stellar.

[BlackberryJam]

The return of Shae was so predictable.  We'd been hit over the head with Shae-anvils all season.  So,

1.  Did she testify out of jealous?  Fuck. I hate that theory. 

 

2.  Was she paid off by Tywin?  This seems doubtful.  Tywin was the head Judge.  He didn't need Shae to have Tyrion found guilty.  Also, the case was Tyrion accused by Cersei.  She was the crown's (Cersei's) witness.  We know Cersei likes the overkill and isn't very smart.

 

3.  I'd like it better if Shae cut a deal with Cersei to save Tyrion's life by testifying against him and Cersei promising to save Tyrion and send him away with Shae.  Only Shae would be stupid to believe her.  It's not like the girl's got brains to spare.

 

I'm hoping for option three.

 

I fully believe Tywin was playing the long game with Jaime.  I think it was always his plan to play Jaime into leaving the Kingsguard, taking the Rock and populating Westeros with little Lannisters.  The only way to get Jaime away from Cersei was to make him choose.  Tywin agreed to Jaime's deal far too fast for him not to have thought about it earlier.  I don't think Tywin ever planned to actually execute Tyrion. 

 

Edit:  Add me to the slightly annoyed by scenery chewing Dinklage.  His nonverbals were great, but the ending speech was the full Nora Desmond.  Charles Dance owned that scene.

Edited May 12, 2014 by BlackberryJam

[Rhondinella]

@BlackberryJam I THINK the show is trying to make it seem that Shae is testifying out of hurt and anger.  To me that's the only reason they showed the scene of Tyrion sending her away (which, IIRC, is not in the books).  That way when she comes back she has motive to want to hurt him.  I can't remember her motive in the books; I assume she was manipulated in some way by Cersei or Tywin.  But I would love it if we found out there were some longer game going on.

 

No, I really took it as Oberyn would have voluteered no matter who was Cersei's champion. That leaning forward, eyes lighting up? He must have thought it was Christmas come early - I think he would have gladly volunteered even if it meant killing Jaime.

 

 

Yeah, Oberyn seemed fairly skeptical of the testimony of some of the witnesses, cause dude wasn't born yesterday.  Like when he asked Cersei the question about what "debt" she was referring to.  He was clearly trying to get to the context of the conversation cause he saw this whole thing as the sham it is.  So I could see him being willing to stand up for Tyrion, if just to spite Tywin.  Finding out he gets to fight the Mountain will just be gravy.

 

Davos:  for a guy short a few fingers he's the best Hand ever!

 

 

 

Hee!

 

I think he always intended to sort of let Cercei have her trial and then send Tyrion off to the wall, and getting what he wanted from Jaime was just a bonus.

 

 

 

Yeah, honestly, this is the only thing that makes sense to me.  Tywin has always been so concerned about the family name, even up to starting a war to get Tyrion back, so it seems strange he would allow the same son to be beheaded for treason.  He isn't able to stop him being tried (and I think probably enjoys Tyrion's humiliation) but in the end will do the thing that brings the least shame to the name of Lannister.

 

 

Also, I thought the look on Margaery's face was poorly-veiled guilt. She may not be a Tyrion cheerleader, but she knew him to be innocent, and she knew Sansa to be innocent. I think she was fighting against her better nature to say something, because she knows she can't explain why she knows that they're innocent.

 

 

I also thought that the frequent camera cuts to her were intended to remind us that she's the only one in the room who actually knows the truth about how it happened, but is in no position to say anything.  (I don't think Olenna was there in the crowd, was she?  At one point I thought I saw her headdress in the crowd, but if so the camera never cut to her).

[Haldebrandt]

Yeah, I don't see an Emmy in all that grimacing and snarling.  Which is a shame because is thoroughly nailed it before, and outdid himself during Shae's testimony.  Granted we are grading on a curve -- PD has set very high standards.

 

What really did impress me (but apparently no one else) is NCW in the convo with his father.  Solid work there.

[Izzyboy]

However, Alfie Allen continues to be stellar.

 

Absolutely.  I can't believe that back in Season 1 I used to think he was a weak link.  I chalk that up to his character not really having anything to contribute to the overall plot at that point though.  Once Allen got to deal with more material in Season 2 and on he's really thrived.  I'm much more interested in Show!Theon than I am Book!Theon solely because of Alfie Allen's performance.

[SNeaker]

@BlackberryJam I THINK the show is trying to make it seem that Shae is testifying out of hurt and anger.  To me that's the only reason they showed the scene of Tyrion sending her away (which, IIRC, is not in the books).  That way when she comes back she has motive to want to hurt him.  I can't remember her motive in the books; I assume she was manipulated in some way by Cersei or Tywin.  But I would love it if we found out there were some longer game going on.

 

My impression in the books is that Shae did it for the same reason she was with Tyrion -- money. Not to condemn her for that (being with Tyrion.) She was a mercenary and did what she had to do. Tyrion was too foolish and lonely (and fucked up) to admit to himself that she was only doing what he was paying her to do. To me it was clear in the books that she never loved him and just wanted fancy things, so once she was offered a better deal, she took it.

 

Show Shae, on the other hand, seemed to genuinely love Tyrion, so for her to make the same betrayal, they needed to give her a good reason, and that reason appears to be her anger and own feelings of betrayal at Tyrion sending her away and calling her a whore, thereby cheapening what they had. Which for me makes me angrier than with book Shae (whom I never trusted, and who Tyrion shouldn't have trusted either) because it was Shae's own stubbornness and refusal to leave given the danger that caused Tyrion to say that shit, and Shae should have been smart enough to see through it.

 

However, if Shae is being threatened/bullied by Cersei/Tywin, that makes it more understandable, and it would make Tyrion killing her less so.

Edited May 12, 2014 by SNeaker

[jeansheridan]

Haldenbrant I thought NCW was solid too given he was almost all reaction.  I like the actor playing Oberyon a lot and I will be sad soon.  He is so capable!  And smart.  A prince in the best sense.   Educated, open minded, brave...makes me very sad.  

 

Dany is boring.  Until she hopefully meets a Lannister she will remain dull.  I get she is learning to be a queen.  Bravo.  Point made.  Bored now.

[Catherinewriter]

I'm going to miss Oberyn. Keep hoping this is a place in which they change the plot from the book, but I can't see how.

Davos rules!

I wonder if Tyrion will ever recover from what he's going to do about Shae. That wasn't necessary, Martin.

[Tryangle]

Mace Tyrell: Gofer. Just cracks me up.

 

The city depictions in the opening credits montage continue to impress. The Braavos one starting with the coin, ending with the Titan, was beautiful. Agreed that the overhead panning from Wall to Braavos was awkward, they could have gone back to the non-rotation pan to Essos, but oh well. Still excited for new city.

 

I took Ramsey's bloodied appearance when confronting Yara as mainly kinky fingernail-raking sex. That said, it's odd seeing that a half-clothed guy can take out armored Ironborn fighters easily enough.

 

The way I saw the scene ending (Yara's crew escaping to their boats) was partly Yara knowing that they'd stand little chance in tight quarters with vicious dogs in the fray, and Ramsey wanting the Ironborn to tuck tail, so they can tell their folks that the Dreadfort is strong. Witnesses, of a sort, to tell the tale of how Theon is no longer Theon.

 

I'm mildly surprised, after three sets of boobs on display, that HBO didn't take a chance at showing whatever could have been left of Theon's waterworks. C'est la vie.

[OakGoblinFly]

I took Ramsey's bloodied appearance when confronting Yara as mainly kinky fingernail-raking sex. That said, it's odd seeing that a half-clothed guy can take out armored Ironborn fighters easily enough.

 

 

That's because Ramsey is bat shit crazy and I imagine a wee bit unpredictable when it comes to, well everything, fighting included.

Edited May 12, 2014 by OakGoblinFly

[Helena Dax]

So Shae went there. I wasn't sure, but now I can see Tyrion killing her like he does in the books. She was so cruel. Unless Cersei was forcing her to say all those things, what Shae did was a complete bertrayal.

 

I loved Dinklage in his final speech. Poor Tyrion. 

 

Poor Theon, too. His scenes with Ramsay are too disturbing for me.  I could watch Joffrey all day, but when Theon and Ramsay are on my screen I just want the scene to finish.

 

I liked this Mr. Daenerys a lot. His scene with Dany was great and I'm glad the show is (more or less) telling us that she shouldn't have tortured and killed those masters. 

 

Davos Seaworth is one of the best men in Westeros. He deserves everything that's  good. 

 

Show!Varys is one of my favourite characters. The actor's so great. The Unsullied are very disappointed with him now, but I loved the way he said he remembered everything. His scene with Oberyn was very interesting too. I guess Varys and Doran Martell have to be working together but I wonder if Oberyn knew about that. Here, it didn't look like he knew.

 

Mace Tyrell is hilarious. He looked so proud to be fetching Tywin some paper and ink! Maybe he's acting, like Pycelle, but I don't think so. 

[mac123x]

I'm mildly surprised, after three sets of boobs on display, that HBO didn't take a chance at showing whatever could have been left of Theon's waterworks. C'est la vie.

 

I wondered about that too.  They CGI'd Davos's hand, I figured they'd follow up with a CGI of Theon's crotch, some sort of "love's their mutilator" parallel between the two.  Then I thought that they might show Theon was still equipped, and the "favorite toy" was from someone else as a mind-game to play on Balon and Yara.  That doesn't make sense either since it'd retcon the "Ramsey eats a sausage" scene from last season.

 

Maybe it was just too squicky even for this show.  Nah, that can't be it. 

 

I'm left with "the blew the CGI budget for this episode with Davos's fingers and the green screen entry into Braavos harbor so they had no money left to paint out Theon's junk."

[Tryangle]

That's because Ramsey is bat shit crazy and I imagine a wee bit unpredictable when it comes to, well everything, fighting included.

 

Now I must wonder how a battle between Ramsey and Karl would have gone. Wouldn't be one for the purists, for starters.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Tryangle

[Independent George]

Show!Varys is one of my favourite characters. The actor's so great. The Unsullied are very disappointed with him now, but I loved the way he said he remembered everything. His scene with Oberyn was very interesting too. I guess Varys and Doran Martell have to be working together but I wonder if Oberyn knew about that. Here, it didn't look like he knew.

 

I don't follow - how is that implied by their scene?

[Holmbo]

I liked this episode a lot. I enjoyed every scene, even with Dany. The Dreadfort could have been a bit shorter though.
In the beginning of the season I had a bit difficulty getting into it because of how much they're changing from the book. But now I enjoy it.

 

I agree with most of what's already been said here. Dinklage reminded us why he won the Emmy in the first place - that speech was incredible. And Charles Dance continues to impress - I'm already starting to get depressed that he won't survive the season. I do wonder if they'll show Shae in his bed at the end.

 

I'm fine with the restructuring of the Ironborn storyline in general, but I agree with the other poster that the attempt to make Theon's rescue "action-y" really fell flat for me. While I suppose it's a good visual ("Hey, this dude is wacko!") showing Ramsey fighting shirtless, I also don't think Yara would have backed down and run away. The odds were almost even, and they had superior arms/armor to their foes.

 

Did anyone else see a bit of appreciation in Tywin's eyes when he was looking at Shae. Could just be that he was happy she was testifying, if they are going with him planning it. Or perhaps there was nothing and I'm just imagining things because I'm looking for hints. 

With the Ironborn story I was annoyed that Ramsay was even fighting. I would have pictured him being a coward who wouldn't want to take any risks to himself when doing his killings. Him being so happy to fight such a even fight seemed weird to me.

 

The return of Shae was so predictable.  We'd been hit over the head with Shae-anvils all season.  So,

1.  Did she testify out of jealous?  Fuck. I hate that theory. 

 

2.  Was she paid off by Tywin?  This seems doubtful.  Tywin was the head Judge.  He didn't need Shae to have Tyrion found guilty.  Also, the case was Tyrion accused by Cersei.  She was the crown's (Cersei's) witness.  We know Cersei likes the overkill and isn't very smart.

 

3.  I'd like it better if Shae cut a deal with Cersei to save Tyrion's life by testifying against him and Cersei promising to save Tyrion and send him away with Shae.  Only Shae would be stupid to believe her.  It's not like the girl's got brains to spare.

 

I'm hoping for option three.

I would bet it's 1. It's a bit forced though.

 

Mace Tyrell is hilarious. He looked so proud to be fetching Tywin some paper and ink! Maybe he's acting, like Pycelle, but I don't think so. 

I laughed at Mace being lower in the chair hierarchy than even Pycele.  The farthest away from Tywin.