S08.E09: Honor

[ChipBach]

16 minutes ago, Dobian said:

He got bit, he didn't get bit.  Carl's dead, Carl's alive.  Glenn's dead, Glenn's alive, Glenn's dead again.  I don't care anymore, lol.

Me either - I felt like I was at a funeral for a friend of a friend of a friend.  Long, overly melodramatic death I found boring.  And yes, St. Siddiq was a bit over the top.  I thought the doctor reveal was manipulative too (something I thought he might have mentioned when Rick scared him off, seems like a pretty valuable skill set to brag about).  I thought making him a doctor/saint who will live only to honor Kuurl cheapened Carls overture.  

[Colorado David]

agreed on the song. NO MUSIC, GIMPLE. unless you use Giacchino, it doesn't work - your dumb selection made me think hick, not sympathy.

[iMonrey]

Quote

It's like this show's been bitten and is taking at least 3 seasons to bite the dust while we're stuck with a smorgasbord of never-ending monologues. Just turn into a zombie already!

That's an excellent analogy except that I, too, feel like the show has already turned into a zombie version of its former self - limping along with no other purpose than to shock and consume.

[maystone]

On 2/26/2018 at 12:38 PM, luna1122 said:

I think we all know it's just a dying Carl's utopian wish for the world, because if Negan is tamed, he's not a threat to those Carl loves anymore. I didn't take it literally or as a vision of the real future. But the sight of that man's stupid face is enough to make me see red; he hasn't singlehandedly killed the show for me, but his fingerprints are sure all over the body. On an episode in which we lose a core character, a CHILD we watched grow up, the last thing we need to see is Negan's terrible face. And he somehow even managed to overact and scenery chew thru his one line. If Rick DOESN'T actually kill him, there is no balance or justice left in Zombieland.

Point taken. It was jarring to see him in that time and place for sure.

[ShadowHunter]

I liked that Carl admitted he killed that kid back in Season 3. I remember the look Hershel gave him. It seemed like Carl was turning into a Psycho but they really didn't. 

[Nashville]

On 2/25/2018 at 9:49 PM, RogerDodger said:

Someone really needs to make a gif of Ezekial's reaction when Henry speared the savior.  Speaking of which, was he someone of special significance that we were suppose to know and I somehow missed it.  They seemed to spend a lot of time focused on his death to be just a random savior.

Gavin was the one middle management Savior who made at least a pretense of being halfway-decent - so of course he had to die.  :P

 

On 2/25/2018 at 11:12 PM, peach said:

Stealing that.

[AngelaHunter]

4 hours ago, ChipBach said:

I thought making him a doctor/saint who will live only to honor Kuurl cheapened Carls overture.  

I know I've said this before, but subtlety is not one of Gimple's virtues. He thinks the audience needs to get smashed over the head with Lucille to "get" anything.  Sadiq is a doctor! He's ever so valuable, so he's a fair trade for Coral, right? Get it? Do we all get it? We even had Rick, whose beloved child is dying in front of eyes (and who wouldn't care or want to know about anything else) ask, "Are you a doctor?" as though it would rouse his interest at this point if Sadiq was a rocket scientist, a doctor or a runway model. Jesus - really, the people who make fan vids could do so much better than this amateurish, contrived, manipulative, heavy-handed, dumb crap. It's enough to make a person who has even half a brain gag.

[mightysparrow]

I finally watched to honour Carl and Chandler.  Both the character and the actor deserved better.

Chandler, Andy and Danai were very good, especially given the weak stuff they were given.

Carol should have been there.  She wasn't there for Andrea or Lori and now, Carl. 

I have no idea what's going on with Morgan.  If they think turning Henry into a baby psycho is going to make up for the loss of Carl...they're wrong.

Rewriting history doesn't change it.  Maybe it's because he was delirious or maybe he was just trying to make his Dad feel better but Rick wasn't the one that brought them to Alexandria.  That was Michonne.  Rick fought it every step of the way.  Michonne is the one who made it possible for Carl to grow into the young man he became.

It might be remotely possible to accept Eugene being taken back but there's no way that Negan can ever be reformed.  Not after what he did to Glenn and Abraham.  Not even Carl would expect his family to live with Negan.  And I can't believe he would want him anywhere near Judith.

They are going to be so sorry for this.  This show has turned into a zombie and will shuffle along until someone puts it down.

Bon voyage, Chandler.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Judith wasn't crying because Carl was dying and saying goodbye... it was because they wanted to put that old nasty hat on her.

[enthropyhater]

Does anyone know what the ratings were for this episode? curious to see if they were able to raise the ratings like they wanted.

[AngelaHunter]

On 2/26/2018 at 6:28 PM, jackjill89 said:

I don't understand why they killed Carl.

Maybe it's the beard he's sporting that can't be hidden. We could overlook his height - lots of young boys are tall and reedy. But that beard just screams, "I'm not 13 years old."

[peach]

1 hour ago, enthropyhater said:

Does anyone know what the ratings were for this episode? curious to see if they were able to raise the ratings like they wanted.

Ouch.  Lowest rated midseason premiere ever.  I guess a lot of people didn't want to watch a beloved child die.  Weird.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/walking-dead-season-8-midseason-153854161.html

[Glaze Crazy]

RIP Carl. Good luck Chandler Riggs.

I waited to watch my season pass episode since I didn't want to watch the death of the primary character that really represented what this damn show and world should be working towards building their future for (eventually.)

That said, it was less traumatic I guess, since I wasn't blindsided by it either. Good acting for the primary actors. Glad to see Carol and Morgan on their take down mission.

I expect I will see this show through until it needs it's own sharp stick to the brain, but I have less hope that it can bring back what it had in seasons 1, 3, 4, 5 and parts of 6. If TPTB can just keep from bleeding off many more of their established characters/actors until they can wrap it up, that would be nice.

[The Mighty Peanut]

On 2/26/2018 at 11:01 PM, peach said:

They all feel as bad as we do.  Worse, actually, since they know him, and this ruins the entire show they are stuck with.  When Rick said goodbye he was probably thinking, "I couldn't protect you...[from Scott Gimple]."
http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/the-walking-dead/news/a850889/the-walking-dead-andrew-lincoln-chandler-riggs-carl-exit-really-unbearable/

Wow. That’s as close as we are going to get to the cast flat out saying this was a bad decision. Especially from Norman Reedus. They all know the show went to the shed and shot itself to death with Carl.

Edited March 2, 2018 by The Mighty Peanut

[diebartdie]

7 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Maybe it's the beard he's sporting that can't be hidden. We could overlook his height - lots of young boys are tall and reedy. But that beard just screams, "I'm not 13 years old."

Well I come from a long line of Sasquashes, my nephew was able to grow a very many beard by the time he was 14 so...

[Dobian]

20 hours ago, Colorado David said:

agreed on the song. NO MUSIC, GIMPLE. unless you use Giacchino, it doesn't work - your dumb selection made me think hick, not sympathy.

It's not just this music selection, they have included horrible music in this show for years.  I posted awhile ago that this show has the worst music of any show I have ever seen.  It's like one of the themes of the ZA is that there is no good music left in the world and everyone has lost their taste in music.

[Nashville]

10 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Maybe it's the beard he's sporting that can't be hidden. We could overlook his height - lots of young boys are tall and reedy. But that beard just screams, "I'm not 13 years old."

 

3 hours ago, diebartdie said:

Well I come from a long line of Sasquashes, my nephew was able to grow a very many beard by the time he was 14 so...

Depends totally upon the kid and how hard his hormones are rocking.  Heck, I’ve had a mustache since I was about 12 or 13 - and we’re not talking peach fuzz; it was making forays into porn country.

[nodorothyparker]

10 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Maybe it's the beard he's sporting that can't be hidden. We could overlook his height - lots of young boys are tall and reedy. But that beard just screams, "I'm not 13 years old."

If that was going to be an issue at all, maybe they should have thought of it before we had whole seasons that were only supposed to cover a day and a half. 

They've seriously only covered about two years over eight seasons, and that includes off-screen time skips.  Yet the baby I had when the first season premiered is now nearing the same age young Chandler Riggs was when we first met him.  I've lost count of how many Judith recasts we've had.

[AngelaHunter]

Well, colour me corrected. I never saw a 12 or 13-year old with a beard, but I see they exist. 

 

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

They've seriously only covered about two years over eight seasons, and that includes off-screen time skips.

I know. Lori was preggo in the first episode in 2010, yet the baby doesn't even appear to be quite 3-years old. Hard to tell, since she apparently hasn't even learned to say one word yet. She really should be talking in full sentences, or even starting toddler monologues, considering all the adults around her never shut up. 

[peach]

I think everyone should be glad there's at least one character that doesn't talk.

[heisenberg]

8 hours ago, Dobian said:

It's not just this music selection, they have included horrible music in this show for years.  I posted awhile ago that this show has the worst music of any show I have ever seen.  It's like one of the themes of the ZA is that there is no good music left in the world and everyone has lost their taste in music.

They are just too stingy to pay for good music.

 

and...

If they do a whole episode on Sadiq I am off this show right on the spot.

Edited February 28, 2018 by heisenberg

[peach]

26 minutes ago, heisenberg said:

If they do a whole episode on Sadiq I am off this show right on the spot.

But, but..he's a doctor!

[diebartdie]

9 hours ago, Dobian said:

 It's like one of the themes of the ZA is that there is no good music left in the world and everyone has lost their taste in music.

That reminds me of something else that has been bugging me, why doesn't Eugene ever use a computer? Do the writers not realize computers are great for lots of things even without internet? Plus portable solar panels specifically for laptops are a thing. I mean shit, the saviors were able to have an entire INDOOR cannabis grow room which requires A LOT of electricity. If they can do that, they can power some damn laptops.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, heisenberg said:

They are just too stingy to pay for good music.

I was hoping I was hallucinating that frucked-up song at the beginning of the ep. I can't even comment on it. 

48 minutes ago, peach said:

But, but..he's a doctor!

Yes! And he's a Good Guy - he's good through and through. We can tell by his ernest expression and he can make a deathbed speech like a pro, without a single umm or err. He honours his mom and now will honour Coral, somehow or other. Yes, he needs his own episode because the Cheesemaker's backstory was not sufficiently boring. 

[BetyBee]

1 hour ago, peach said:

But, but..he's a doctor!

Rick is in the habit of killing doctors, so Sadiq better watch out.

[Smad]

I finally got around to seeing the episode. It was somewhere between 'eh' and 'meh'. They need to stop jumping around all over the place. It's completely disjointed. Jumping between Alexandria and the Kingdom is fine. But then we also jump into Carl's fantasy and Rick from the future. Have Carl talk about his 'hugs and puppies' wishes for the future (even though it makes no sense for the Carl of pre-S8), no need to show us. Halfway through the episode I just wanted Carl to die. All this talking and dragging it out just annoyed me after a while instead of making me sad. Just die already for crying out loud.

Poor Morgan. No matter what he does he's screwed because he is incapable of finding a middle. If he'd gone crazy on the Saviors back in S7 instead of playing Zen master, Ben might not be dead. Now that he's gone completely kill crazy again, he's the worst kind of example for Henry who is trying to follow in Morgan's footsteps. In essence, he's ruined both kids.

It's so nice to FINALLY see a group of Saviors dispatched again. And of course it can only happen with Carol and Morgan involved. Everyone else is busy screwing up and making it easier for the Saviors to survive or just can't be bothered (see Maggie and her caravan in 8x08). Rick and Michonne go lick your wounds, everyone else hole up somewhere and just let Morgan and Carol CLEAR that whole part of the state your are all in. So that we can finally be done with this crap of a storyline.

[nodorothyparker]

1 hour ago, AngelaHunter said:

And he's a Good Guy - he's good through and through. We can tell by his ernest expression and he can make a deathbed speech like a pro, without a single umm or err. He honours his mom and now will honour Coral, somehow or other. Yes, he needs his own episode because the Cheesemaker's backstory was not sufficiently boring. 

The thing is that I don't know that it even matters anymore that he's a Good Guy.  I mean, yes, you hope he is because not everybody in this universe can be a crazy shitheel or what's the point?  But he's tainted now from the jump because he got Carl and the hope of the story killed.  And not because they got cornered and it couldn't be helped but because he went on and on about "freeing souls" and honoring dead mothers enough to somehow convince Carl, who really should have known better, to attack a pack of walkers who were preoccupied with a dead deer and very possibly wouldn't have noticed them slipping by them in the woods.  That was the thanks Carl got for going to look for him to bring him back to Alexandria.  So unless Sadiq is Superman, Daryl, and every badass zombie killer in every movie ever all rolled into one, he'll always have that hanging over him.

This assumes, of course, that anyone's left watching to care who isn't already completely annoyed that every third word he's uttered on the show so far has been the "honor" of the episode title.

[AngelaHunter]

12 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

The thing is that I don't know that it even matters anymore that he's a Good Guy. 

I was being facetious, but didn't work I guess. 

 

12 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

And not because they got cornered and it couldn't be helped but because he went on and on about "freeing souls" and honoring dead mothers enough to somehow convince Carl, who really should have known better, to attack a pack of walkers who were preoccupied with a dead deer and very possibly wouldn't have noticed them slipping by them in the woods.

That was so ridiculous- Sadiq is some sort of Ghandi and Carl, who certainly does know better and who could have taken out all the walkers by himself, turns into a blundering wimp and dies for all this nonsensical BS.

 

1 hour ago, BetyBee said:

Rick is in the habit of killing doctors, so Sadiq better watch out.

When he made his presence known at the Death Bed, I really and truly was expecting Rick to stab him right in the heart. But what we expect never happens. Ah, Gimple, you sly fox, always keeping us on our toes. 

ETA: While I'm thinking of it, there's a nitpick I have but it bothered me at the time: While Rick and Michonne are dragging Carl across the lawn, I said aloud, "For fuck's sake, can't you two carry him?" That really annoyed me. 

Edited March 1, 2018 by AngelaHunter

[nodorothyparker]

25 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I was being facetious, but didn't work I guess.

No, it worked.  Hence the capitalized Good Guy.  It was just a thought I ran with.

[peach]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

The thing is that I don't know that it even matters anymore that he's a Good Guy.  I mean, yes, you hope he is because not everybody in this universe can be a crazy shitheel or what's the point?  But he's tainted now from the jump because he got Carl and the hope of the story killed.  And not because they got cornered and it couldn't be helped but because he went on and on about "freeing souls" and honoring dead mothers enough to somehow convince Carl, who really should have known better, to attack a pack of walkers who were preoccupied with a dead deer and very possibly wouldn't have noticed them slipping by them in the woods.  That was the thanks Carl got for going to look for him to bring him back to Alexandria.  So unless Sadiq is Superman, Daryl, and every badass zombie killer in every movie ever all rolled into one, he'll always have that hanging over him.

This assumes, of course, that anyone's left watching to care who isn't already completely annoyed that every third word he's uttered on the show so far has been the "honor" of the episode title.

Long ago, the St Louis Blues traded my favorite player, Brendan Shanahan, for Chris Pronger who went on to be some kind of super star, hall of fame, blah blah. But I never, ever, ever liked him because Shanny was gone.  I will never like Siddiq.  This is my vow. 

This will be easy to keep because I'm done watching it.  And somehow they could have managed to include a new doctor without KILLING THE SHOW.

[peach]

1 hour ago, AngelaHunter said:

That was so ridiculous- Sadiq is some sort of Ghandi and Carl, who certainly does know better and who could have taken out all the walkers by himself, turns into a blundering wimp and dies for all this nonsensical BS.

 

This is part of why it's so irksome.  If he just had to get bit, couldn't it have been doing something necessary, like saving someone from a zombie attack?  Instead of whatever it was they were doing.

 

Quote

When he made his presence known at the Death Bed, I really and truly was expecting Rick to stab him right in the heart. But what we expect never happens. Ah, Gimple, you sly fox, always keeping us on our toes.

LOL.  Well, there's still time.

Edited March 1, 2018 by peach

[enthropyhater]

22 hours ago, peach said:

Ouch.  Lowest rated midseason premiere ever.  I guess a lot of people didn't want to watch a beloved child die.  Weird.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/walking-dead-season-8-midseason-153854161.html

Thanks for the link! WOW that has got to sting for sure. Even with all the backlash I still thought they were going to pull bigger numbers. I'm definitely in the group that skipped the premiere, hell I haven't seen season 8 at all, I will forever miss little Coral. 

[diebartdie]

4 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I was hoping I was hallucinating that frucked-up song at the beginning of the ep. I can't even comment on it. 

Yes! And he's a Good Guy - he's good through and through. We can tell by his ernest expression and he can make a deathbed speech like a pro, without a single umm or err. He honours his mom and now will honour Coral, somehow or other. Yes, he needs his own episode because the Cheesemaker's backstory was not sufficiently boring. 

Remember Noah? Remember how Beth stayed behind at Grady Hospital so Noah could escape? Remember when CDB went back to Grady to rescue Beth and how the crazy cop lady said Noah had to stay but Rick told her to fuck off, Noah was coming with them? And then how Noah made a pact with Diana's husband to learn how to build things and work for a better future? Remember all that build up? And then what happens. ONE EPISODE LATER, Noah get devoured. I expect Siddiq to honor Coral's memory right into the middle of a random silent walker herd next episode.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

On 2/26/2018 at 12:12 AM, MichaelaRae said:

I don't even LIKE Shane or Lori, and yet I call BS on them not being there. LOL

T-Dogg, Jacqui, Amy, Sophia, Tyrese,  and Beth are also missing.

[Christi]

13 hours ago, Nashville said:

 

Depends totally upon the kid and how hard his hormones are rocking.  Heck, I’ve had a mustache since I was about 12 or 13 - and we’re not talking peach fuzz; it was making forays into porn country.

but it wasnt just A kid, it was Coorraallll.  He looked fine...if they had to kill a main, it would have made a MUCH better story to watch Cooraall taking over for daddy.  Lets face it, Rick boarded the crazy train a few years ago...Rick aint RIIICK no mo?

fuck.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Christi

[Ohwell]

I don't blame Dr. Saddiq at all for Carl's death, because he should have known better than to disturb walkers who were having their dinner.

I expect the Dr. to be a goner pretty soon though and that's a shame.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

I also don't understand why people would quit watching TWD over the death of one character (Carl)

I don't think that's why people didn't watch, or if some didn't watch over that it's probably not that Carl died, but the stupid, banal, dumb way he died. I think a lot stopped watching because this show is a confusing, repetitive, non-sensical boring pile of cow patties. Or many just cannot take Negan any more, and/or the Garbage People and/or the 24/7 firing of guns by people who have no ammunition and/or the mystical saving of the Sanctuary by Eugene and/or the monologuing. Or... well, there's more that probably has driven people away but the entire list would be too long. 

[luna1122]

14 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I was hoping I was hallucinating that frucked-up song at the beginning of the ep. I can't even comment on it. 

 

Dang, there are a lot of Conor Oberst haters here. I stand alone in loving him, and that song.

 

I'm quitting the show not just cuz of Carl's death, but actually more cuz of the way they got rid of Chandler (and by extension, Carl). But it's Negan. Fucking Negan. Show-killer. Carl's death just gave me the final excuse I needed to stop watching his scenery chomping evil stupidity.

Edited March 1, 2018 by luna1122

[nodorothyparker]

I like the song too, but I've always had a taste for seemingly discordant musical choices and have mostly been okay with the ones the show has gone with.  

On the larger issue, I'm guessing for a lot of people it's more of a final straw/death by a thousand cuts kind of thing than just being mad because they killed off one character.

Me personally, I've always said I was here as long as the remaining original characters (okay, Carol specifically and then Michonne and then Rick and Carl) were.  But now we've lost Glenn and Carl in successive seasons.  The writing has been terrible.  The show has become a largely incoherent mess of explosions and guns blasting and nonsensical plotting (garbage people and fighting walkers on sticks) even when it hasn't been eaten by Negan and the neverending dick and balls monologues.  Killing Carl, who was the story's best hope for a future and the reason for so much of what motivated Rick over eight seasons, feels like it negates so much of the show's own history that all we're left with is a pointless exercise in nihilism until everybody's dead.  That really doesn't sound like much of a draw.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, luna1122 said:

Dang, there are a lot of Conor Oberst haters here.

I don't hate him. I never heard of him. I just thought the song for that particular montage was jarring and disjointed as though someone said, "Close your eyes, spin around and point to a song on this list. That's the one we'll use." 

[luna1122]

There might have been actual intention for the use of the song....here are some of the lyrics:

Quote

While my mother waters plants
My father loads his guns
He says death will give us back to God
Just like this setting sun

but who knows? It's one I've loved for years, and it's actually much longer and janglier and there's spoken word stuff  in it and those who didn't like it would probably REALLY hate the whole song!  For me, tho, because I was already feeling emotional about Carl's death, hearing the opening strains of that song just made me start crying sooner than I'd expected to.

[Nashville]

16 hours ago, peach said:

But, but..[Saddiq’s] a doctor!

So was Pete, and we all saw how THAT went.  ;)

 

15 hours ago, BetyBee said:

Rick is in the habit of killing doctors, so Sadiq better watch out.

Dang - beat me to it.

 

51 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

On the larger issue, I'm guessing for a lot of people it's more of a final straw/death by a thousand cuts kind of thing than just being mad because they killed off one character.

Me personally, I've always said I was here as long as the remaining original characters (okay, Carol specifically and then Michonne) were.  But now we've lost Glenn and Carl in successive seasons.  The writing has been terrible.  The show has become a largely incoherent mess of explosions and guns blasting and nonsensical plotting (garbage people and fighting walkers on sticks) even when it hasn't been eaten by Negan and the neverending dick and balls monologues.  Killing Carl, who was the story's best hope for a future and the reason for so much of what motivated Rick over eight seasons, feels like it negates so much of the show's own history that all we're left with is a pointless exercise in nihilism until everybody's dead.  That really doesn't sound like much of a draw.

My primary gripe is this: TWD represents a show, a story line, a worldview - heck, a RESOURCE from the network POV - which took years of semi-careful nurturing to build. This show is an investment which, if properly managed, should continue to pay dividends to both AMC (monetarily) and viewers (entertainment-wise) for years to come.

But now the current crop of Production and writers act as if they have zero knowledge of what went into growing this franchise, and seem hell-bent on squandering that resource for what they perceive to be short-term gains.  It’s like Cousin Scotty inheriting the estate his parents spent a lifetime building, and blowing the whole thing within a year on hookers and blow and the “sweet-ass” Ferrari he wrapped around a tree within a week of buying it.  

Gimp is doing the same damn thing.  EIGHT YEARS of character development, of building fan rapport and support - of building, in essence, a relationship between the characters and the fans - suddenly gone up in a whiff of smoke, and for WHAT?  Underwhelming MSP ratings?  And for this Gimp gets a promotion???  Hell, I’d have fired his ass.  This move only makes sense if TWD is on the fast track for liquidation.

So I have about as much interest in watching this shitshow firesale of one of my (former) favorites as I do of watching Cousin Scotty stumble in half-drunk to Thanksgiving dinner and start going on about his latest trip to Vegas.  Which is to say, I don’t.

[nodorothyparker]

What's particularly maddening is that Gimple wrote a number of the episodes that I liked a lot during seasons 2 and 3, when the show was having various issues with showrunners and pacing and unevenness and reported money fights.  Clear and 18 Miles Out, for example, are two that I will rewatch almost every time if I happen to be flipping through and catch a marathon because they both stand up well on their own while still being respectful of the larger story.  Gimples's been around since the start of season 2 even if he didn't get promoted until the start of 4.   In fact, from what I can tell most of the people involved in the production and decision making end of things aren't new.  They've been with the show in one capacity or another for years.  They didn't suddenly get hired on in season 7 ignorant of the show's past and immediately say "hey, you know what would be cool?"  Yet, you're right in that they're acting like they have zero knowledge of what story the show was purportedly telling that kept us sticking with it all this time.

The fact that Gimple was basically allowed to fail upward in being promoted while Angela Kang, who's mostly written episodes I either hated or don't care enough about to rewatch,  is our next new showrunner doesn't inspire any confidence that they even understand what's gone wrong to even try to pull it out of the death spiral it now seems to be in or at least give us a satisfying conclusion.

[festivus]

3 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I don't think that's why people didn't watch, or if some didn't watch over that it's probably not that Carl died, but the stupid, banal, dumb way he died. I think a lot stopped watching because this show is a confusing, repetitive, non-sensical boring pile of cow patties. Or many just cannot take Negan any more, and/or the Garbage People and/or the 24/7 firing of guns by people who have no ammunition and/or the mystical saving of the Sanctuary by Eugene and/or the monologuing. Or... well, there's more that probably has driven people away but the entire list would be too long. 

Yep, all of that and more. Carl's death was just the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I was interested in Carl's story of a kid growing up in the apocalypse (even though they dropped the ball on that story long ago to focus on nekkid painting and Mad Max cage fighting). Knowing all I have to look forward to is Negan inexplicably still being around is enough to say Bye Bye .   Not to mention that I never see my favorite characters, all the characters are separated most of the time, Michonne is a shadow of her former self, etc and on and on.

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

What's particularly maddening is that Gimple wrote a number of the episodes that I liked a lot during seasons 2 and 3, when the show was having various issues with showrunners and pacing and unevenness and reported money fights.  Clear and 18 Miles Out, for example, are two that I will rewatch almost every time if I happen to be flipping through and catch a marathon because they both stand up well on their own while still being respectful of the larger story. 

 

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

The fact that Gimple was basically allowed to fail upward in being promoted while Angela Kang, who's mostly written episodes I either hated or don't care enough about to rewatch,  is our next new showrunner doesn't inspire any confidence that they even understand what's gone wrong to even try to pull it out of the death spiral it now seems to be in or at least give us a satisfying conclusion.

I think Gimp maybe a textbook example of the Peter Principle in action - particularly its corollary that sometimes managers get promoted beyond their level of competence, and such a state of affairs is usually carried along by organizational inertia until it results in some degree of crisis.  Well, guess what...?  :P

[TigerLynx]

1 hour ago, festivus said:

Yep, all of that and more. Carl's death was just the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I was interested in Carl's story of a kid growing up in the apocalypse (even though they dropped the ball on that story long ago to focus on nekkid painting and Mad Max cage fighting). Knowing all I have to look forward to is Negan inexplicably still being around is enough to say Bye Bye .   Not to mention that I never see my favorite characters, all the characters are separated most of the time, Michonne is a shadow of her former self, etc and on and on.

This sums it up so well.  Glenn once said to Abraham, paraphrasing here, "If we're not planning for a better future, what's the point?"  To me, there is no point to watching anymore because all of the characters I liked are dead, or have been sidelined.  Michonne and Carol don't get to be badass anymore.  They are stuck listening to one idiot guy after another whine.

And most importantly, not only, can I not listen to another Negan monologue, I don't want to listen to any of these idiots droning on and on about stupid stuff while Rome literally burns around them.

[peach]

3 hours ago, festivus said:

Yep, all of that and more. Carl's death was just the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I was interested in Carl's story of a kid growing up in the apocalypse (even though they dropped the ball on that story long ago to focus on nekkid painting and Mad Max cage fighting). Knowing all I have to look forward to is Negan inexplicably still being around is enough to say Bye Bye .   Not to mention that I never see my favorite characters, all the characters are separated most of the time, Michonne is a shadow of her former self, etc and on and on.

Right.  It's not just about who is dead, it's about who is still alive-- Negan. 

 

Killing Glen destroyed a lot of the heart and soul of the show.  Just Abraham would have been sustainable, but both was too much.  And then because of that Sasha went on a suicide mission, and even that would have been redeemable if Zombie Sasha had managed to get a chunk out of Negan.  But instead it was in vain.  Now Carl and the hope for the future.  It's just nihilism, as someone mentioned.  Honestly, the only character that's ever gotten a hero's death...is Merle.

[AngelaHunter]

53 minutes ago, peach said:

Killing Glen destroyed a lot of the heart and soul of the show.  Just Abraham would have been sustainable, but both was too much.

Killing Abe made sense, since it's obvious Negan is insecure and Abe was defiant and physically bigger than Negan, someone Negan couldn't intimidate and who needed to be eliminated. Glenn's death was turned into a bad joke and he was made to look ridiculous, with the popped eyeball and the final, silly words. The fact that his head-bashing came after Abe's just reduced it to "Oh, him too?"

57 minutes ago, peach said:

Honestly, the only character that's ever gotten a hero's death...is Merle.

Agree. 

[The Mighty Peanut]

ITA Christi. They could have explained Coral’s beard somehow. He is the son of Rick CrazyBeard Grimes after all. Maybe the hat is radioactive. Who knows? 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I don't know what this says about me, or the show (TPTB).... but I'm at the point where I sorta hope Rick is killed off at the end of this season.  So I can drop it.

Pre-Negan/Saviors, this show was the among the best in TV land (IMO), but since?  I can't be remotely fussed to stay current and even wonder what I'm missing while being behind.  [I needed to watch the last 5 eps of 8A just to not be out of the loop for this episode]