S15.E07: Olympic Dreams

[Yeah No]

3 hours ago, chiaros said:

Regarding Tanya's snapping at Carrie and stuff - it seems to me she may have been registering (and being irritated by) the way the white dudes were behaving (like Da Bears); it may be that Carrie (a white woman) simply didn't see the issue and/or kept pushing her. Remember also Tanya saying to Da Bears, "You dominate the conversation when you win. You dominate when you lose."  See here and here too. And here for a long thread on the "get woke" stuff plus other shit including at the Judges' Table..

Maybe I need to "get woke" because I don't know what the guys were doing that warranted that reaction.  I don't think they created their little club especially to make other people feel excluded based on gender or race.  And this is a competition after all, so do they really have to worry about how other people are taking their little fraternity?  People make alliances on competition shows all the time and it doesn't come from any kind of sexism or racism.  Whatever the others are feeling slighted about is not the responsibility of the guys to cater to in my opinion, especially if it isn't intentional exclusion on the guys' part.  Would they have felt better if one of the bears wasn't white?  Because I think it's unfair to put them down and assume that they were being exclusionary based on race.  I'm a woman and I don't care if men bond with each other and don't include me, it's what men do, it isn't necessarily intended to be a monolith and a slap in my face.  If they are dominating, that's just their personalities, not an attempt to put me down.  But again, this is a competition so my advice to people that can't take a little putting down or exclusion of any kind is don't enter a competition in the first place. I am sure my opinion is probably unpopular but it is what it is.

[Blonde Gator]

31 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I agree that she should have let the team know that she didn't want to do the knife cuts but I don't know if she's right that they're outdated.  That would be news to me.  If it's not in her repertoire that's one thing but why act like they're passe or irrelevant?  I thought it was accepted that chefs should learn them at some point, just like chefs need to know the accepted temperatures of cooked meats.  It seemed to me that she was making that as an excuse to save her reputation, but to me it just came off like someone that needs to get over themselves and suck it up that they aren't all that.  It's probably hard to be lauded as a great chef in a specific type of cuisine and then be called out as being inadequate in certain techniques, but a Top Chef needs to know all these things and she probably deep down knew that.  When she came out to say that she doesn't cook certain meats in her restaurant, I don't know if she realized that it might have looked bad on her from the perspective of the judges.

I suppose the battonet is just an interim step in doing a large and precise dice....but the term may be somewhat passe.  I'd never heard of it, but I have a fairly large smattering of French.  Having said that, Tonya went to culinary school in France, and how hard is it to say "tell me what that means? to one of her team mates?"  NOT.  Chiffonade and brunoise are used all the time, even by the so-called "amateur" cooks on FN (Pioneer Lady, Rachel Ray, etc.)....so those two techniques are well known to most home cooks as well.   Adrienne, the former sous at La Bernadin, and a culinary instructor, took her time making perfect, precise cuts on her preparation.  Tonya could have done the same....but let herself get all flustered with Claudette's demands without just saying "not now".  Claudette is culpable for jumping on the Speed challenge without a GOOD plan. 

As for the temperature thing.....the requirement was to "cook it perfectly and precisely".  Most people KNOW how they like their steaks (or other meats cooked)....so in a restaurant, when I order medium rare, I expect a temp of 125 before resting...overcook while resting will make it a perfect warm, bright pink throughout and a nice sear on the outside.   Rare, I'd expect still mooing....red and not warm in the middle....and so forth.  The chefs were able to specify what THEY were shooting for....to me that was a decision that indicated they knew what the majority of diners at a restaurant would prefer to order.  Mostly medium rare for red meat, and for the chicken, cooked all the way to the bone, but still juicy (which big Joe nailed perfectly, both in his target and his execution).

So, while Tonya executed her lamb to perfection.....she failed on both the knowledge of what "perfection" was....as well as not cooking her lamb to her own specification (temperature wise) of that perfection.  Combined with her knife cuts....she was out, and rightly so.  This EC was based on "skill drills" to mirror the skills required to win a competitive sport....rather than making a super flavorful dish with a plausible story.  It was really more of an extended QuickFire than the usual EC challenge.  So the judging was skills-based, rather than overall tasty results based (although a tasty, well executed dish that adhered to the "rules" of the challenge won). 

I guess I'm in the minority here about the challenge, I enjoyed it.  Team challenges are always unfair when there's both immunity, and the PYKAG chef to be selected from the losing team.  But that is part of the business....a restaurant is only as good as its weakest link, as is any team Olympic sport.   I thought this challenge was interesting because it actually represented the realities of competition.

[Eulipian 5k]

This board, has been rife with people who are over the "da Bears". I don't think it's a black/white thing. Tom wrote an extensive essay about "frat-boy" culture and it wasn't a race based criticism. Others throw shade at Snidely for being juvenile, and didn't like Tyler's boarish/bearish ways. Yet when Tanya makes the same frat-boy charge to "da Bears", some assume it was race based and she must hate even the viewers???  WTH?

Edited January 22, 2018 by Eulipian 5k
Temperance!

[Chickabiddy]

15 hours ago, snowblossom2 said:

Claudette set the team up for failure by doing a complicated dish that she needed a lot of help with, on a speed challenge. The other teams’ speed dishes were fewer ingredients and much simpler, and thus much more appropriate for a speed challenge

She sure did. She oversells herself and her skills. We saw it with her claim that she could cold smoke the fish when she worked double time to throw shade at Adrienne. And this epi she claimed she could do speed. Girlfriend looked like she was in the weeds the minute the challenge started. 

 

5 hours ago, chiaros said:

(I also note what others have said - Claudette seemed to keep asking (demanding?) help from Tanya again and again while she was making an overly complicated dish - for a SPEED challenge - then seemed to be snippy when Tanya asked for help during her round. Claudette's comments in her "talking heads" seemed to me not to bear much correspondence with what was shown (as edited, of course) on the episode as aired. As for Chris offering help to Claudette and being declined - as someone here remarked on - that was when Claudette was well along in plating, i.e. her dish was already cooked; and well AFTER all the multiple demands she made on Tanya.  Tanya did also comment in a TH that she kept getting pulled from her own prep as also commented on here, and the episode indeed shows Tanya constantly interrupting what she was doing and running around to get stuff for Claudette and doing prep/stuff for Claudette. Yes, her inability to properly execute those cuts mattered; but her being dragged around to help Claudette instead of trying to focus on her cutting must have had an effect – especially as the episode also showed Joe Flamm and Adrienne making THEIR cuts with deliberateness and slowly to maintain shape. Which Tanya did not seem to have been able to even try to do in her running around for Claudette.)

So much this. 

Claudette was ordering Tanya around like some second-rate employee and not a team mate who was giving up her own prep time to help a team mate.. Tanya was constantly interrupted, and that sort of thing does affect precision. A few others have mentioned this, but it hasn't been brought up enough - Where the fuckety fuck was Chris? Normally, I like Chris, but he sure as hell took the coward's way out. Why are we and the judges all up at arms about the battle of the Alpha bitches, but no one wants to discuss Chris's role in letting his team down? Dude was so checked out of a TEAM effort that he had no idea what was going on? I understand that short ribs take a long time to cook, but they do so in a fucking pressure cooker - as in don't touch that shit and let it do it's thing. Chris could have got his ribs started and jumped in to help her Royal Incompetencey Claudette so that Tanya could make her knife cuts in peace. To be fair, I think the judges could have spent a little more time finding out where Mr. Disappeared was, but I guess that would not as interesting as dissecting the cat fight on TV.

And good on Tanya for shutting that shit stirring from Gail down. See, I don't see Tanya as "sassy" or bitchy. I see her as a grown ass woman who has proved herself and will not be used as someone's foil to gin up the drama. I saw a professional own up to her mistakes and not lower herself into the mud with Faux Alpha Claudette. Tanya saw the writing on the wall and went out on her terms. If a man did that, we wouldn't be calling him a sassy bitch for his performance. It would be more along the lines of "stand up professional who goes out on his own terms."  And Carrie can take a fucking seat because if you insert yourself uninvited into someone else's conflict, be prepared to get bitch slapped. Tanya may be called a bitch by some, but at least she wasn't a stealth, predatory bitch  like Claudette. Tanya maybe had a bad day, but Claudette has a bad pattern. Period. 

 

2 hours ago, chiaros said:

eRgarding that temperature for lamb...145ºF is actually what the US FDA recommends as the safe MINIMUM internal temperature.  :-)  ;-)  }:-)  I wonder if Tanya - who cooks by touch rather than by thermometer - simply reached for what she probably knew of the "Official Figures" and gave Tom that "145ºF" ? 

https://www.fda.gov/downloads/food/foodborneillnesscontaminants/buystoreservesafefood/ucm572281.pdf

So maybe Tanya did know her stuff based on ServeSafe guidelines she has to pass a test on to keep her restaurant open - and yet can still cook one hell of a lamb based on touch.  And maybe her cuts would have been better if she had the same peace to work in as Adrienne instead of serving as Claudette's handmaiden. 

I never watched Season 14, and am sure glad I missed Brooke in all her braided schwarmy sanctimony. "Aren't quickfires always a surprise?"  Ugh 

And FYI, Brooke, if Krapes are the new pancakes, how about we pronounce them correctly. It's a fucking  crepe with a soft e as in 'prep" This drives me fucking crazy. You think a Top Chef who boasts about having  Krape Sunday would know that. 

Sorry, just feeling a wee bit grouchy because I am so disappointed in John Besh. :-(  I LOVED his restaurants when I lived in NOLA, and he really used to be a terrific human being. So glad I had the tasting menu at August for my birthday BEFORE I knew what he was tolerating in his establishments. It's just so sad when someone you admire turns out to be something of a shit. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by Chickabiddy

[Yeah No]

49 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

This board, has been rife with people who are over the "da Bears". I don't think it's a black/white thing. Tom wrote an extensive essay about "frat-boy" culture and it wasn't a race based criticism. Others throw shade at Snidely for being juvenile, and didn't like Tyler's boarish/bearish ways. Yet when Tanya makes the same frat-boy charge to "da Bears", some assume it was race based and she must hate even the viewers???  WTH?

I don't know if she was making it into a race thing but even a frat boy thing doesn't bother me.  I don't see these chefs as the typical frat boy stereotype anyway, and I think there have been others on these shows that deserve the label far more than they do. I envy them for being able to have a team spirit like that with a "may the best man win" mentality.  I don't see this in a negative light.  Often people in competitions pit themselves against each other and use alliances to bulldoze over other people.  I don't see them as doing this at all.  

[Blonde Gator]

7 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I don't know if she was making it into a race thing but even a frat boy thing doesn't bother me.  I don't see these chefs as the typical frat boy stereotype anyway, and I think there have been others on these shows that deserve the label far more than they do. I envy them for being able to have a team spirit like that with a "may the best man win" mentality.  I don't see this in a negative light.  Often people in competitions pit themselves against each other and use alliances to bulldoze over other people.  I don't see them as doing this at all.  

Agree.  There have always been little cliques of mutual admiration and support on TC.  What's the big damned deal?  Those guys were having fun and enjoying an across-the-board win.  I didn't find that to be mean-spirited in any way at all.  It was just people being happy.  Kind of sad that others attempt to turn that into some sort of racist or misogynist BS.   Sad state of affairs when being happy is seen as awful!

[chiaros]

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I thought it was accepted that chefs should learn them at some point, just like chefs need to know the accepted temperatures of cooked meats.  

So---if you are running a restaurant in the USA, and adhered to US FDA rules, you would be cooking your lamb to a minimum of 145ºF, yes?

[Blonde Gator]

2 minutes ago, chiaros said:

So---if you are running a restaurant in the USA, and adhered to US FDA rules, you would be cooking your lamb to a minimum of 145ºF, yes?

Maybe at Chilis, where they won't serve you a medium rare burger.....but at upscale restaurants, the customer is the consumer and is always right.

[Eulipian 5k]

Top Chef is a game show not real life, so there's drinking, smoking, and all kinds of debauchery(lol) going on behind the scenes, (as in life, lol). But we can look at the Season 2 to see "what the big deal" is with frat boy behavior vis-a-vis Marcel; that led to the only DQ in Top Chef. I don't think any of that kind of behavior is going on this season. But I'm not living 24hrs in that house.

Tom's essay said that this kind of culture permeates many restaurant kitchens which is a work place. (We all  I know who was #1, 2, and 3 to be excluded from most fraternities). What's happening today, as in why this episode was so different, is something that we men would best understand by doing one thing: Listen.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, chiaros said:

So---if you are running a restaurant in the USA, and adhered to US FDA rules, you would be cooking your lamb to a minimum of 145ºF, yes?

Only if you didn't want anyone to eat there.  I'm being flippant, of course, but I've also never been served lamb cooked to anything near 145 degrees, because that's hideously over-cooked and chefs wouldn't do that unless the customer ordered it well done.  And, in fact, there are chefs who refuse to do that to a piece of meat, even when a customer asks.  I have a friend who inexplicably orders prime rib well done, and half the time she does so she has to end up ordering something else, because they simply won't serve it that way.  And I overheard a customer in a New Orleans restaurant being kindly but decisively informed that no, she could not have the "study of lamb" dish (lamb three ways, all of them delicious; it was what I ordered, which is why the conversation caught my ear) well done; the chef's name is on the restaurant, and he won't be serving food that he feels is improperly cooked.

[seltzer3]

4 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I seem to remember there was a Quickfire where Tom wanted to see his stupid eight sided batonet cuts for the mise-en-place.

What it really comes down to is: If you're going to put your adult life on hold for how many ever weeks to earn ~$100k, you need to BINGE, BINGE, BINGE the previous seasons of TC as your mise-en-place. Nothing that's happened this season is all that new.

OMG, I remember that challenge.  They had to cut a potato, by making 7 sides (That was when Josie cut herself).  What is the purpose of cutting 7 sides of a potato?  Does it cook faster?

In terms of the bears clique.  Tanya wasn't the only one complaining about it.  Chris in his confessional was also really annoyed with the bears.

[Norma Desmond]

The unBEARables.

[chiaros]

8 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Maybe at Chilis, where they won't serve you a medium rare burger.....but at upscale restaurants, the customer is the consumer and is always right.

 

6 hours ago, Bastet said:

Only if you didn't want anyone to eat there.  I'm being flippant, of course, but I've also never been served lamb cooked to anything near 145 degrees, because that's hideously over-cooked and chefs wouldn't do that unless the customer ordered it well done.  And, in fact, there are chefs who refuse to do that to a piece of meat, even when a customer asks.  I have a friend who inexplicably orders prime rib well done, and half the time she does so she has to end up ordering something else, because they simply won't serve it that way.  And I overheard a customer in a New Orleans restaurant being kindly but decisively informed that no, she could not have the "study of lamb" dish (lamb three ways, all of them delicious; it was what I ordered, which is why the conversation caught my ear) well done; the chef's name is on the restaurant, and he won't be serving food that he feels is improperly cooked.

Yes.

But the point remains - the official FDA standard is 145ºF for lamb. It's right there in their published ServeSafe specifications. So at the least one could acknowledge that all this lamb being served at 125ºF is technically in violation of the US Government's specifications and, theoretically, subjects a food establishment serving the public to fines or closure by the Health Department when lamb (and the other meats cited in the FDA publication) is served at a temperature less than 145ºF.  (What you do in the privacy of your own home is your business)

:-) 

If you and all the chefs out there have an issue with this y'all should be working to change that official definition of the minimum temperature for lamb and the various other meats.

Edited January 23, 2018 by chiaros

[zibnchy]

I'm new to Top Chef, having only discovered it. I binged season 14 (Brooke season) and am now caught up on season 15. The only side effect of the binging so far is my new love of using the word plate as a verb. "I'm going to go plate dinner", I said as I paused the video.

So hello!

Also, Claudette blows chunks! She has to go. I would love to go to Tanya's restaurant but I don't anticipate a trip to Oakland ever. I am going to try to go to Chris' place next time I am in NYC. Also I'm shallow and Adrienne is very pretty and I want her to win.

[Bastet]

15 hours ago, chiaros said:

If you and all the chefs out there have an issue with this y'all should be working to change that official definition of the minimum temperature for lamb and the various other meats.

No, thanks; I'm not aware of any epidemic of chefs being cited for cooking their red meats properly, rather than to what has traditionally been the too-high recommended temperature from the FDA, so it's not anything to which I feel the need to devote my energy. 

Tanya wasn't asked what the FDA listed as a minimum temperature, she was asked what temperature she wanted her finished product to be.  Knowing how she wanted the lamb to turn out (which turned out to be spot-on), but not knowing, by her own admission, what temperature that target doneness would register as, she pulled a number out of her ass.  It was thus incredibly off, so that when her perfectly-cooked lamb was presented, it didn't match what she'd stated as her goal (again, because of the pulling out of her ass due to not knowing factor, not because she was reciting a government guideline), and, this being the precision round, she lost a lot of points right off the bat.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Bastet

[Blonde Gator]

24 minutes ago, zibnchy said:

I'm new to Top Chef, having only discovered it. I binged season 14 (Brooke season) and am now caught up on season 15. The only side effect of the binging so far is my new love of using the word plate as a verb. "I'm going to go plate dinner", I said as I paused the video.

So hello!

Also, Claudette blows chunks! She has to go. I would love to go to Tanya's restaurant but I don't anticipate a trip to Oakland ever. I am going to try to go to Chris' place next time I am in NYC. Also I'm shallow and Adrienne is very pretty and I want her to win.

Welcome!

[FinnishViewer]

Quote

Tanya wasn't asked what the USDA listed as a minimum temperature, she was asked what temperature she wanted her finished product to be.  Knowing how she wanted the lamb to turn out (which turned out to be spot-on), but not knowing, by her own admission, what temperature that target doneness would register as, she pulled a number out of her ass.  It was thus incredibly off, so that when her perfectly-cooked lamb was presented, it didn't match what she'd stated as her goal (again, because of the pulling out of her ass due to not knowing factor, not because she was reciting a USDA guideline), and, this being the precision round, she lost a lot of points right off the bat.

One of the things chefs need to also do in their kitchens is to teach their sous chefs. So, for Tanya to be a good teacher, she should also be able to tech her sous chefs about temperatures and knife skills. Based on this sample, she wouldn't be a good teacher in either.

[ratgirlagogo]

15 hours ago, chiaros said:

But the point remains - the official FDA standard is 145ºF for lamb. It's right there in their published ServeSafe specifications. So at the least one could acknowledge that all this lamb being served at 125ºF is technically in violation of the US Government's specifications and, theoretically, subjects a food establishment serving the public to fines or closure by the Health Department when lamb (and the other meats cited in the FDA publication) is served at a temperature less than 145ºF.  (What you do in the privacy of your own home is your business)

:-) 

If you and all the chefs out there have an issue with this y'all should be working to change that official definition of the minimum temperature for lamb and the various other meats.

To a large extent those FDA temperatures ARE for home cooks - just suggestions and predictably err on the side of extreme safety.  The FDA doesn't do restaurant inspections as far as I know:

https://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/Transparency/Basics/ucm194888.htm

and while FDA standards are a basis for local health department restaurant regulations, those health department regulations are very local. They differ from city to city and state to state.

When the health inspector comes,  he/she isn't likely to be looking for temperature violations other than food storage unit temperature violations ( and the ever-popular with local TV and newspapers rat/mouse/roach vermin violations).   

In any case what Tanya said applies equally here - she didn't know because even running a restaurant she doesn't actually HAVE to know any such thing, especially for a meat she doesn't serve.

Edited January 23, 2018 by ratgirlagogo

[bluepiano]

On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 8:59 PM, hkit said:

Completely agree. I love Tanya, and it was tough to watch her crash and burn. However, the passive aggressive muttering and eye rolls at judges table didn't cover her in glory. My unpopular opinion: she and Claudette came out of that looking equally bad. 

I second your "unpopular opinion." For much of the season Tanya has projected an attitude that this whole Top Chef thing is beneath her, and that really came through in this episode, with all the eye-rolling and looks of disdain. But then why did she choose to participate?

This show she seemed to have it in for everyone, not just Claudette. I'm sure "The Bears" can be loud and annoying, but they seem harmless and generally well-liked as individuals. I also didn't buy her excuse on the temperature of the lamb - that she had a breakfast/lunch place and the only protein she cooked was chicken.  She's always bringing up her classic French training, so you can't have it both ways. You're either an accomplished chef or you're not. You don't forget something pretty basic just because you're not doing it every day.

Her parting TH about paving the way for minority women chefs seemed to me a little self-serving, and not very good timing.

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 7:30 AM, mwell345 said:

I’ll join you in the corner.  I hated the Olympic challenge.  It was so contrived with the cheering, holding up the cards, awarding medals.  No wonder they ran 15 minutes over.

It reminded me of "Beat Bobby Flay," with a bunch of extras in the peanut gallery yelling and cheering, no doubt on cue from the stage manager, and pretending like they care. Either that or some junior high school exercise in drumming up "Olympic spirit." At least no one was chanting "USA...USA." 

Edited January 24, 2018 by bluepiano

[Rockfish]

Late to comment, but after every episode I look forward to reading everyone's very different points-of-view—it’s amazing how our filters and experiences give us such disparate opinions. Me? I was firmly Team Tanya, although she should have spoken up in the beginning about being uncomfortable being placed in the Precision battle. Compared to the other Speed contestants, Claudette seemed unrelentingly demanding and rude to her teammate, so when she really needed help (with plating and the addition of an acid), Tanya had already checked out and wasn’t there for her. The other team dynamics were the opposite: the Speed people occasionally asked for help while cooking, not continuously, so when plating time came around everyone pitched in with good attitudes. Of course, I don’t know what *really* happened.

Also, I thought Tanya was talking specifically about the batonet cut, not all of them, but my memory may be way off.

I can totally see myself being a Carrie in that situation because I get uncomfortable around conflict, so my irritating meddler persona sometimes comes out in an effort to mediate. 

[Eulipian 5k]

13 hours ago, Rockfish said:

it’s amazing how our filters and experiences give us such disparate opinions. 

Exactly what Tanya said to Carrie when Carrie was yapping at her to accept Claudette's fake remorse.

Tanya's reasoned, calm TH's about her struggles in the food industry in SFO and OAK are being interpreted as another ABW who should be grateful to even have any opportunity.

[dewelar]

48 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Tanya's reasoned, calm TH's about her struggles in the food industry in SFO and OAK are being interpreted as another ABW who should be grateful to even have any opportunity.

Wow, seriously? By whom and where?

[Brookside]

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 9:21 PM, Norma Desmond said:

I cannot stand Claudette and the bears, especially Bruce. I feel like he's getting the winner's edit. It's reminding me of Brooke in the last season. I will be really pissed if he wins.

Am I the only one who thinks Bruce was incredibly selfish to go on a game/reality show when he knew his son would be born during the filming?  Sure there's apparently prestige to winning Top Chef, and quite possibly they're in debt from surrogacy, but if he's as good as he keep telling us he is, surely he could have asked the producers for a bye until the next season?

Oh, and Padma's Angelina Jolie leg pose in the blue and white dress in the intro is almost as bad as Angelina's was.  And I love Padma and think she's gorgeous.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Brookside
Because Padma is of Indian origin, not a kind of cheese - auto correct makes her Parma

[April Bloodgate]

9 minutes ago, Brookside said:

Am I the only one who thinks Bruce was incredibly selfish to go on a game/reality show when he knew his son would be born during the filming?  Sure there's apparently prestige to winning Top Chef, and quite possibly they're in debt from surrogacy, but if he's as good as he keep telling us he is, surely he could have asked the producers for a bye until the next season?

 

It's not clear to me what the timing was on being chosen by the birth mother, so he may have already agreed to be on the show before the birth mom picked them to adopt. But if that was all in place before he was chosen to be on Top Chef, then I agree with you; he shouldn't have accepted for this season, leaving his wife to care for a newborn without his help for however many weeks.

[Brookside]

16 minutes ago, April Bloodgate said:

It's not clear to me what the timing was on being chosen by the birth mother, so he may have already agreed to be on the show before the birth mom picked them to adopt. But if that was all in place before he was chosen to be on Top Chef, then I agree with you; he shouldn't have accepted for this season, leaving his wife to care for a newborn without his help for however many weeks.

I agree in theory about the timing, but if I remember correctly, he was talking about the birth from the first episode.  As we have seen/read you can pull out at any time.  They have alternates in place if it's before the show starts filming, and they now have so many returnees, while many on these boards were sad to see the pregnant woman leave, there's hope she will be invited back.

Final words, I still think Bruce is an arrogant, smug, egotistical jerk regardless of the baby situation!

Edited January 24, 2018 by Brookside
readability

[little black cloud]

If I have any particular feelings about Tanya at all, they tend towards the negative, since she's always struck me as rather mirthless. But she won me over forever and for always when she told Carrie to get woke. No matter how good Carrie's intentions -- and it's not clear to me what she was even hoping to do -- she was still trying to manage a situation in which a black woman is expressing herself. In the context of our culture in general, and her career specifically, I suspect Tanya has had her fill of that, thanks very much.

[Rockfish]

35 minutes ago, Brookside said:

Oh, and Parma's Angelina Jolie leg pose in the blue and white dress in the intro is almost as bad as Angelina's was.  And I love Parma and think she's gorgeous.

This made me laugh—glad you mentioned it. The pose is so over-the-top ridiculous that I’m wondering if she, or whomever set up the shoot, did it in a tongue-in-check way.

[Eulipian 5k]

57 minutes ago, Rockfish said:

This made me laugh—glad you mentioned it. The pose is so over-the-top ridiculous that I’m wondering if she, or whomever set up the shoot, did it in a tongue-in-check way.

So funny. I'm guessing the Dir of Photog set up that shot; a full body, from street level to sky, shot is unusual. Padma, being a former model, knew enough to put that bend in her leeeeg to break the intimidating down to 'come hither'. Go Padma, Queen of the Rockies!

[Brookside]

1 hour ago, Rockfish said:

This made me laugh—glad you mentioned it. The pose is so over-the-top ridiculous that I’m wondering if she, or whomever set up the shoot, did it in a tongue-in-check way.

Could be, she usually dresses beautifully.  (By the way, I edited my original post to reflect Padma's own name, not that of a cheese!

Edited January 24, 2018 by Brookside

[Special K]

42 minutes ago, Brookside said:

Could be, she usually dresses beautifully.  (By the way, I edited my original post to reflect Padma's own name, not that of a cheese!

Or (appropriately for this discussion) a ham!  ;-)

[Brookside]

30 minutes ago, Special K said:

Or (appropriately for this discussion) a ham!  ;-)

As they say, I see what you're doing here!

[Eulipian 5k]

3 hours ago, dewelar said:

Wow, seriously? By whom and where?

Sorry, it would not be nice to call people out, this isn't Dan Ackroyd vs Jane Curtin on SNL, lol. But there have been "ironic" critiques of Tanya for her TH's. (check Page 1).

[akr]

4 hours ago, Brookside said:

Am I the only one who thinks Bruce was incredibly selfish to go on a game/reality show when he knew his son would be born during the filming?  Sure there's apparently prestige to winning Top Chef, and quite possibly they're in debt from surrogacy, but if he's as good as he keep telling us he is, surely he could have asked the producers for a bye until the next season?

I defer to Bruce & his wife on this (just as I did to Lee Ann on hers, which some also criticized).  People make what can seem to be non-optimal decisions about these things all the time but life doesn't happen in a vacuum and usually the person making the decision has the best information about what the trade offs are.  

[dewelar]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Sorry, it would not be nice to call people out, this isn't Dan Ackroyd vs Jane Curtin on SNL, lol. But there have been "ironic" critiques of Tanya for her TH's. (check Page 1).

I just checked page 1, and I saw absolutely nothing to back up your assertion. I saw several people note that she was negative (true), that she had a chip on her shoulder (also true, and certainly understandable given her experience), and that she had checked out (which she herself all but admitted). One person said that Top Chef is not the place to solve society's ills, which I would say true for the most part, although there's something to be said for setting a good example. YMMV on whether Tanya succeeded, although I'm on record as saying she did so better than a lot of past cheftestants. None of that comes anywhere near your accusation of:

Quote

Tanya's reasoned, calm TH's about her struggles in the food industry in SFO and OAK are being interpreted as another ABW who should be grateful to even have any opportunity.

...so I would appreciate it if you would point out to me (by private message if you prefer) what you interpret to have done so. I'm more than willing to admit that -- in reflection of the vernacular used in the episode -- I'm still asleep.

Edited January 24, 2018 by dewelar
Small wording change

[Brookside]

I agree that we don't have any kind of real idea of their lives and decisions. But at the same time Bruce hasn't expressed himself as much more than a blowhard.  I know all about the magic elves, but surely everything can't be a fabrication of who he really is.  We'll agree to differ I hope, and hope that everything is going wonderfully for the new family.

[Brookside]

1 hour ago, akr said:

I defer to Bruce & his wife on this (just as I did to Lee Ann on hers, which some also criticized).  People make what can seem to be non-optimal decisions about these things all the time but life doesn't happen in a vacuum and usually the person making the decision has the best information about what the trade offs are.  

I thought I'd replied to this (certainly typed out a response!), but it seems to have disappeared.  Anyway, yes of course we don't know how and why they make their decisions, and I wish the family much happiness.

[chiaros]

Many comments have been made as to whether race is involved in the remarks made by Tanya insofar as Carrie and Da Bears and Claudette and so on and so forth are concerned. Commentary that includes her perspective on being a Minority Black Woman making her way in a White World.  Here's an Op-Ed from a person of color/colour, relating specifically to the situation in the UK, but which I imagine overlaps with the USA. There is no statement on my part of whether she is right or wrong, but this person's perspective bears thinking about.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/24/white-people-tv-racism-afua-hirsch

[Qoass]

I really wish I could remember which of the guys did it but I was struck on past episodes that the some of them will trundle about the kitchen nearly knocking smaller people over or worse, in my opinion, grabbing them bodily and moving them out of the way. I really, really hate that. Just because you're a large person, you are not entitled to violate other people's personal space.

[hkit]

23 hours ago, little black cloud said:

If I have any particular feelings about Tanya at all, they tend towards the negative, since she's always struck me as rather mirthless. But she won me over forever and for always when she told Carrie to get woke. No matter how good Carrie's intentions -- and it's not clear to me what she was even hoping to do -- she was still trying to manage a situation in which a black woman is expressing herself. In the context of our culture in general, and her career specifically, I suspect Tanya has had her fill of that, thanks very much.

I don't know if that is fair to Carrie. There is no evidence that Carrie interjected because a black woman was expressing herself. I read the situation as that she was trying to mediate a very uncomfortable situation for all in the stew room. It was uncomfortable because of Tanya. First, because she called out the bears (even though it got an "about time!" from many of us at home, that would have created a very awkward silence where everyone was on eggshells). Second, there was the back and forth with Claudette. Claudette may have been insincere, and Tanya didn't need to accept the apology. But what was her end goal of arguing? Venting? Sure, therapeutic. But maybe not very aware of everyone around you. I'm usually in the "mind my own business" camp, but if I had been there and trapped in that room, I may have tried to mediate an agreement between both sides. It has nothing to do with race or gender. It has to do with a public disagreement that others are being made a captive audience to. 

[Special K]

Wasn't Carrie encouraging Tanya to express herself?   Is that "trying to manage" or is it trying to give someone your ear?

I understand maybe she shouldn't have interjected herself, but I don't get the rest of it.

[cooksdelight]

Bruce was chosen for the show long before they found a birth mother to have their child.

[Rai]

Okay, I finally saw the episode and then going through this thread, I find I had a pretty different reaction to it. I'm team Tanya all the way. Claudette unfortunately looks a bit like a pal of mine, so I apologize to said pal, but she's so irritating. She really was treating Tanya like her sous chef while completely abdicating Chris to help out at all. Tanya should've made a case for speed, yes, but who knows? Maybe she'd already seen how Claudette doesn't hesitate to throw people under the bus and thought it was better to humor her. But since Tanya nearly got canned in the sudden death quickfire by demonstrating her French techniques were rusty, it's rough she got put in the precision spot, and Claudette should've planned out her dish way better in advance. Like, gone through it with her team, step by step, so that they all knew what she needed and could tell her whether or not they could provide it. And Claudette shouldn't have turned down Chris's plating help ("Yes, please get that component going!" All she had to say), and that's just the problem with her own dish. 

Once it was Tanya's turn for help, Claudette was combative and unhelpful and being aggressive aggressive, not the passive aggressive burn that Tanya was doing. And then she had the gall to put her hand on Tanya while being so condescending at the judges' table. I don't know how Tanya kept it in check at that point, because that is a total rage trigger for me. Jeez.

Then again, I sort of got the feeling that whole team was weak on the precision stuff. MAYBE Chris is the most refined, but none of them seem to gravitate toward technique-heavy cuisine. I think they had a big challenge to overcome regardless of who took it.

It sounded to me like Carrie believed that Claudette had apologized and had done so sincerely, which I disagree with, and was trying to make Tanya accept said apology, and Carrie needed to butt out. When Claudette steamrolls Carrie, then Carrie can decide whether the apology is sincere or not. Otherwise, clam up, sister. That said, I sort of thought Tanya's "Get woke!" thing at the end of her shutting Carrie down speech was just a throwaway line. I know what it means in current terminology, but I don't think Tanya was seriously mounting a political protest at Carrie. I'm not reading too much into that.

I love that Chris looks up to Tanya so much, and that she did speak honestly about the struggles for WOC in the kitchen. She didn't handle judges' table the best, I guess, but she refused to get into a screaming match with Claudette, and I respect that. And I like the bears, but the fact that they monopolize the conversation and the oxygen in the room is something worth commenting on. I appreciated this episode subtly highlighting that these considerations do come into play, consciously or unconsciously. That the top clique of the house is three white guys is something worth considering, especially since both Chris and Tanya felt their dynamic was a little too much at times. I like the bears fine. Just, it's interesting to make people stop and think about who's on top, who's bonding with who, and who's going down in flames for lack of support. AND. Who thinks it's her business to decide how another person should feel. My moment of irritation with the bears came when Bruce was all, "the GIRLS are probably going to make something complicated." It doesn't mean anything consciously, probably, but it's still something to stop and think about.

Anyway, I suspected Tanya wouldn't make it to the end, and I'm not sure if Chris will either -- but I hope he does, because his voice is the most glorious thing ever. But as long as he outlasts Claudette, I'll be happy. Girl, go back to Last Chance Kitchen where you belong!

[Special K]

5 minutes ago, Rai said:

That the top clique of the house is three white guys is something worth considering,

I find it pretty amusing if it has worked out that way, since the formation of "the bears" was bonding over using C-Pap machines for sleep apnea.

[Rai]

True, but once Tyler was cut, Mustache Joe seemed to sort of take his place. Again, I'm not suggesting there's malicious and active race issues at play here. Just pointing out how interesting it is to have these dynamics happen unconsciously. 

[cooksdelight]

A cute graphic from Tyler, speaking of da Bears.

[sATL]

On Friday, January 19, 2018 at 12:34 AM, LeighLeigh said:

Just read on wiki that Tanya is 52. I think that makes her 20 years older than some competitors. If I was her age, I wouldn't be able to tolerate much either (the bear-doucherie, the bunk beds, etc.) Just can't figure out why she agreed to sign up in the first place.

Might  be a bucket list to-do. And promotion for her resturant. She was 37 when the show premired-so she probably figured WTH- I'll give it a shot if & when they call.

If only 1 chef could do all 3 of the special cuts, then the other 2 should/could have done a major part on the other parts of the dish. I wondered if Chris would have been "hiding" if he had two other team mates.

[biakbiak]

35 minutes ago, sATL said:

only 1 chef could do all 3 of the special cuts, then the other 2 should/could have done a major part on the other parts of the dish. I wondered if Chris would have been "hiding" if he had two other team mates.

But they werent "special" cuts, they were the cuts that you would use in many dishes and would be easy to compose a dish to highlight a small dice, a chifonnade, and a batonnet (which is basically a large juilanne, I use it when I am making a veg platter pr doing steak fries and I am just a home cook).

[Yeah No]

On 1/25/2018 at 1:42 PM, Rai said:

True, but once Tyler was cut, Mustache Joe seemed to sort of take his place. Again, I'm not suggesting there's malicious and active race issues at play here. Just pointing out how interesting it is to have these dynamics happen unconsciously. 

Maybe they felt like the "odd men out" and formed their own alliance because of feeling less than accepted or understood by the others.  Or because they all had a similar culinary outlook and clicked on that basis.  There could be any number of reasons for them finding commonality other than race.

[Yeah No]

Does anyone remember "Team Rainbow" from Season 5?  The LGBTs formed that group.  Same with Season 8 and the Euro. chefs.  And somehow that was OK even though they were openly bonding based on sexual orientation or ethnic background, so why not this, which is not even based on ethnic background but just being big burly guys?  On one Reddit I read some burly guys were actually happy that their body type was finally getting some representation!

I actually saw some ironic self-deprecation in their self-labeling.  Like "We know we're big and fat and use CPAP machines and we're owning it".  I saw it as far from being an elitist thing.  I think the guys should be understood on their personal motivations, not be subject to suspicion and mistrust without the benefit of the doubt.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Yeah No

[Rai]

Yeah, who will speak for the fat white dudes who snore? They are truly underrepresented in our society. Anyway, I still haven't said it's conscious or malicious or openly based on race at all. Just pointing out it's interesting that it naturally happened that way. Everyone's welcome to draw their own conclusions, of course. I think though at the risk of derailing this thread, I'm gonna say that's my piece, and peace out.