S02.E12: Clooney

[luna1122]

I also cared far more about Clooney than anything else that happened this episode. I was watching thru my fingers as that poor baby finessed his way thru city streets, narrowly escaping cars, kids and puppers. And for some reason, I thought Jesse now had Clooney, and I wish he had...but I was happy to see that he'd found a new home with a sweet little boy. I hated that Garrett Morris just hand waved away that the cat 'ran off'....that's not taking care of an animal.

This was the first episode that I really thought teen Kevin and adult Kevin actually seemed like the same person.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, DesertCyclist said:

I want to know where Madison got that throw.

I don't know where my mind was when I read this - but instead of throw, the cozy blanket, I thought baseball and was trying to remember when Madison threw something. 

8 hours ago, DebbieM4 said:

Yes, I was just thinking that I've never seen candy by the registers at Costco.

And it can be fun there!  Costco has everything - There's a lot beyond groceries and paper goods,, and I think kids like the enormity of it, the food samples that are different all the time, the vast variety of things all under one roof, etc.  It's kind of a unique shopping experience especially for kids who are used to malls and grocery stores.

I rarely go, because I don't really buy in bulk, but I have to say I bought the best leg of lamb I've ever had in my life there, and they had real San Francisco sourdough you could take home and bake (there's a difference, and while I don't long for the Bay Area any more - I do long for the food)

8 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

Randall...are we sure he is smart? Do smart people lose their shit like this? He is all over the place! Who takes a phone call during a job interview?

Yep, smart people lose their shit as much as anyone else.  But yeah, the phone call thing was disrespectful and I was definitely not on his team when he did that.

3 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

I also cared far more about Clooney than anything else that happened this episode. I was watching thru my fingers as that poor baby finessed his way thru city streets, narrowly escaping cars, kids and puppers. And for some reason, I thought Jesse now had Clooney, and I wish he had...but I was happy to see that he'd found a new home with a sweet little boy. I hated that Garrett Morris just hand waved away that the cat 'ran off'....that's not taking care of an animal.

This was the first episode that I really thought teen Kevin and adult Kevin actually seemed like the same person.

This failure to involve Jesse in any way, except for the original shock factor, really bugs. Why not get to know Jesse instead of chasing down some presumed woman his father admired? Yeah, plot reasons. But still - though they mention that William was bi, it still feels like bi-erasure to me.

[qtpye]

On 1/17/2018 at 8:45 AM, Paloma said:

I also liked Kate being a wise voice and helping someone, but I really had a hard time accepting the whole "wedding dress shopping helps Madison and Kate become best friends" plot. Speaking from personal experience as someone who has had a lifelong poor self-image (even when I was not overweight) and who has been between 25 and 40 pounds overweight most of my adult life, I would not want to shop for a special occasion dress at all, but if I had to do it I would rather go by myself than with a thin person (even if that person is a good friend). I remember a few years ago that I needed to get a dress for an important event and had no luck in my first shopping trip. My husband then suggested I ask one or both of my relatives (who are also good friends) to go with me, because they always dress nicely (in contrast to my schlumpy style, though he didn't say that) and have a good eye for what looks good. I couldn't do it, in large part because they were both slim and I would be embarrassed by how I looked in anything I tried on. If I were 100 pounds or more overweight, I can't imagine allowing myself being talked into going full-out traditional bridal gown--custom made or not, my body could not be concealed or flattered enough to make me forget about how I look. I don't say this as a disparagement of the actress or any other person who is 100+ pounds overweight, and I know that there are some who refuse to be ashamed by society's standards and are proud of their bodies (and good for them). But we have repeatedly been shown in this series, and especially in this episode, how Kate's lifelong weight struggles and poor self-image have affected her, so it simply is not believable to me that all of a sudden she would let herself be convinced by Madison--who at that point was far from a close friend--to go through a shopping experience that would likely turn out worse than her memory of the prom gown experience.

Also, I think this Madison-Kate friendship is being forced by the writers. Kate has been shown to be disdainful of Madison, and Madison's dialogue makes her seem pretty superficial. Granted, she is hiding a deeper pain, and I can buy that Kate recognizes what Madison is hiding and wants to help, but that is not a good basis for a mutually rewarding friendship.  

 

23 hours ago, TwoGrayTabbies said:

TIU episode synopsis:  Randall learns more about William’s past.

Me:  Maybe they’re going to reveal more about Randall’s mother’s death so I’m not stuck with the inference that William ditched her dead body in some drug house.    Maybe William’s feet of clay will be revealed!

Actual revelation:  William was the guardian angel of his apartment building and he was a Billie Holiday fan.

Me:  I got up early to watch this?

 

23 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

Die, William. Die. 

 

19 hours ago, mojoween said:

Madison’s latching on to Kate concerns me too.  It’s not completely out of nowhere, because they’ve interacted in both positive and negative ways before, but it seems like Madison has some deep-seated mental health issues that are keeping her from having a healthy relationship with anything.  

Thank you for the condolences everyone.  It’s been a tough road, and I’ve been trying to find diversions, and I discovered when this show came back from break that it is not a good one.  But it’s a good show and I am powering through.

 

17 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Well, to be fair, Kate's very similar in that way, where her body issues prevents her from getting too close to people. It's actually why I think they're a good, although very surprising and typically unlikely, pairing. But mostly, I just really, really want Kate to have one friend who's not Toby or her brothers. I actually found it quite sad when Madison said that she never had a best friend before. Perhaps a bit clingy and jumping to conclusions, but Madison's been fairly harmless. Sure, I think Kate's treated her like trash for two seasons, but maybe this episode was their turning point. If the next episode with Madison has Kate not trashing her in their support group, then I'd sadly call that progress. I thought this episode was the first where Kate finally was a support to Madison after Madison's been more supportive toward Kate. 

However, I still want to see if Kate will actually treat her like a friend in future episode. She certainly understands her more after this episode, but I'm not sure what they were going for with her last look in the scene. Was it just supposed to be taken as a funny moment for the audience? Does Kate not consider Madison a friend? Is their relationship going to change in any way?

I hate to say this because Madison seems so sweet...but her mental illness might be one of the reasons she is gunning so hard for Kate.    I had a dear friend who dies from Anorexia/Bulimia many years ago.  As the disease began to progress, she started obsessing about always being the skinniest in the room.  It was like being skinny was her superpower and anyone who was smaller fueled her issues.

Also, Kate has said that she has had a lifelong resentment of her mother, just based on Rebecca's looks.  Madison will make Kate feel naturally self-conscious about her own issues with food.

Now why the heck Mads want to be friends with Kate as opposed to the other overweight people in the room, who are usually much nicer to her, I really have no clue.

Thank God the actor that plays William is so likable because he gets the saint treatment way more than Jack.   William is talented, universally loved, and overcame his addictions.  It would be funny if one of the neighbors said something, "Oh, that skinny weird dude...never cared for him personally, but sorry about your loss."

Edited January 18, 2018 by qtpye

[Biggie B]

I didn't mind that Randall answered his cell during the interview because he'd already made it very clear he was not interested in the job and had no intention of taking it (not that his behavior was appropriate!!!). Yes, he still should have set his phone to vibrate  and of course not answered it, but it was just another way of driving the point home to us viewers (as if it weren't already abundantly clear) that this job was not going to happen. And too, it wouldn't have been as 'dramatic' if Garret Morris' call had gone to Randall's voicemail and Randall listened to it after the interview. This is still a fancy soap opera, after all, and everything that's done and said is for maximum impact. So while there is absolutely no doubt at all that in real life, none of us would've taken a call in the middle of an interview, Randall's inappropriate behavior served to ratchet up the tension and suspense - a new clue about William's possible former lover! No return to the dull and stifling corporate world!

I actually like the developing connection between Madison and Kate. I feel as if they'd sort of been moving towards this from the time when Kate divulged her pregnancy to Madison in the parking lot after one of their meetings - their whole dynamic changed. Madison is clearly a troubled young woman with issues galore, yet I came away from this episode feeling as if Madison will truly benefit from having Kate in her life, and hopefully vice-versa. There was Kate saying out loud how being fat in her teen years was actually more comforting, more familiar, and that was a pretty profound thing to admit!  As much as the show is about the three siblings, I do like seeing Kate in particular with people other than her family. It makes her less two-dimensional to me. And Kate has no long history with Madison, other than their weight loss support group. In a way, the two of them are blank slates to each other. We know nothing about Madison's life, nor does Madison know very much about Kate's life. I'm curious to see how they can support each other in both good and bad times. Maybe it will be a train wreck, but I'm at least interested enough to want to see a bit more. 

Edited to add that no matter how much you know you're not going to take a job, you must still act professionally and politely in an interview! I would NEVER do what Randall did. Just want to drive that point home - I found his behavior to be a device, and nothing more.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Biggie B

[Empress1]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

It was really rude and he surely knew that sunk his chances for that job, but he telegraphed that he didn't give a rip.  I think he said that fairly clearly to Beth in the kitchen.  I don't think he wants a corporate or conventional job anymore, period, and not just because of still grieving. 

Agreed. I actually really like that he's seeing that there's more to life than grinding it out in an office 100 hours a week for the sole purpose of making money (a trader's job is literally to make money), and he's in a position where he doesn't need to do that. (I also think it's realistic that he'd be courted by other companies - I think he said when he quit that he'd brought in a huge percentage of his former employer's business.) Hell yes, start Big Three Housing! But, like, make a plan. Make several plans. Talk to your wife. Talk to your therapist - is he still getting therapy? Use your words. While his delivery of "It's not doing anything for my juices" was really funny ... come on, dude. Sit down with Beth and say "I know I need structure but I really don't want to go back to the life I was leading before." Have those conversations. I agree with Beth that Randall needs something to do, but I don't think it should be working in a similar job to the one he had. They should have a conversation about that - a real one.

And don't even leave your phone ON in an interview, let alone answer it.

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Agreed. I actually really like that he's seeing that there's more to life than grinding it out in an office 100 hours a week for the sole purpose of making money (a trader's job is literally to make money), and he's in a position where he doesn't need to do that. (I also think it's realistic that he'd be courted by other companies - I think he said when he quit that he'd brought in a huge percentage of his former employer's business.) Hell yes, start Big Three Housing! But, like, make a plan. Make several plans. Talk to your wife. Talk to your therapist - is he still getting therapy? Use your words. While his delivery of "It's not doing anything for my juices" was really funny ... come on, dude. Sit down with Beth and say "I know I need structure but I really don't want to go back to the life I was leading before." Have those conversations. I agree with Beth that Randall needs something to do, but I don't think it should be working in a similar job to the one he had. They should have a conversation about that - a real one.

As much as I agree that Randall just wanted something different in his life and deserved to explore that more....he went about it in a very shitty and condescending way. I was not a fan of his attitude about the whole thing, how he bragged about the company he was going to the job interview for wanted him but he was likely not going to take it because it didn't excite him like fostering did. Then don't do the damn interview! Sit and talk with your wife instead of fluttering around, making half ass plans and acting like a self righteous jerk about it! 

I think Beth would have been very supportive if he was just honest with her. Sure, his whole "this job interview doesn't spark for me" is pretty honest, but it doesn't get down to what he really wants. Except I don't think he really does know what he wants. Sure, his plan now is to buy the building and then build it up to become better for people, but is that really what he wants to do long-term? He's going to have his hands full once they get a new foster kid AND he's in the middle of his building project in an entirely new state, mind you. He's taking on too many new things at once. 

[ShadowFacts]

8 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

As much as I agree that Randall just wanted something different in his life and deserved to explore that more....he went about it in a very shitty and condescending way. I was not a fan of his attitude about the whole thing, how he bragged about the company he was going to the job interview for wanted him but he was likely not going to take it because it didn't excite him like fostering did. Then don't do the damn interview! Sit and talk with your wife instead of fluttering around, making half ass plans and acting like a self righteous jerk about it! 

I think Beth would have been very supportive if he was just honest with her. Sure, his whole "this job interview doesn't spark for me" is pretty honest, but it doesn't get down to what he really wants. Except I don't think he really does know what he wants. Sure, his plan now is to buy the building and then build it up to become better for people, but is that really what he wants to do long-term? He's going to have his hands full once they get a new foster kid AND he's in the middle of his building project in an entirely new state, mind you. He's taking on too many new things at once. 

It was totally rude and I prefaced my previous post with that, but I confess to a small amount of vicarious enjoyment of the applicant not going into an interview with hat in hand.  Of course, how he handled it was wrong. 

The fact that Randall will have his hands full with a new project that he is excited about, that is meaningful to him, and maybe another foster child, I love it.  There's impulsivity there, just like with Jack, but Randall has been in slow-down mode for a few months now.  He is brilliant and Type A and will be taking this thing apart like he did the Magic 8 Ball.  Plus there could be family involvement, with Kevin around and looking for structure.  I think it could all play out to be so much better for him and his family than going back to something that did not appeal to him.  Where it could go from the one building, long-term, doesn't have to be decided right away. 

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I rarely go, because I don't really buy in bulk, but I have to say I bought the best leg of lamb I've ever had in my life there, and they had real San Francisco sourdough you could take home and bake (there's a difference, and while I don't long for the Bay Area any more - I do long for the food)

Yep, smart people lose their shit as much as anyone else.  But yeah, the phone call thing was disrespectful and I was definitely not on his team when he did that.

This failure to involve Jesse in any way, except for the original shock factor, really bugs. Why not get to know Jesse instead of chasing down some presumed woman his father admired? Yeah, plot reasons. But still - though they mention that William was bi, it still feels like bi-erasure to me.

I think part of why Jesse was dropped is because Denis O'Hare is too busy for more occasional guest spots on this show.  And I do think the reveal that William had a male lover was just a way to squeeze a "twist" into another season one ep.  

Randall being almost socially clueless does bother me a little.  The young Randalls seem quiet and observant and respectful.  37 year old Randall is kind of tone deaf to social niceties.  It doesn't jibe with the geniuses I know with anxiety issues.  If anything, they clam up in company because they know it's easy to stick your foot in your mouth.  Randall just runs around saying stupid shit and making exaggerated faces like he's never worried about a thing in his life.  Like his smug smile at the super when he asked if she was sleeping with William.  

[topanga]

On 1/17/2018 at 1:06 AM, Drumpf1737 said:

Quote

the viewers continue to find Beth selfish/bitchy and I still don't see it at all. Beth is amazing. Hop on board. There doesn't need to be a villain, and it damn-well doesn't need to be the only black woman. You want a villain? How about literally any other character? Anytime Beth isn't giggling and getting dressed by birds in the morning, half the audience finds her unlikable. Whatever. I strongly disagree. 

2

I'll hop on board. She is amazing. I can't wait to get more of her backstory.

I'm here for all of this. (I couldn't find the original poster, so I quoted both of you.) I find it fascinating that Beth and young Rebecca are put in very similar situations: their well-meaning husbands make impulsive decisions that affect the entire family but rarely consult their wives until after the decision has been made. Both women voice their concerns but usually go along with their well-meaning husbands' ideas. I do think Beth is more outspoken than Rebecca was. Maybe it's a generational thing. Or maybe Beth and Randall have always been equal partners when it comes to running their household, but ever since he found William, Randall's been making more and more big decisions without consulting Beth. Or is doing a lot of uncharacteristic things that she knows from experience can lead to stress and mental health issues. Or even medical issues--which is why she had a talk with William early on about Randall's episode of blindness. 

 

21 hours ago, marceline said:

I really liked Miguel in this episode. I liked how he called Kevin out for dropping all that drama on Rebecca. I liked knowing that Rebecca had someone focused on her well-being and that Miguel was willing to run interference whether Kevin liked it or not. Rebecca is Miguel's wife and he clearly loves her. It's a shame Kevin can't just be grateful for that.

I completely agree. I like Miguel, too--despite that dreadful aging makeup. I swear, they make that handsome man look like a phantom. Anyway, I liked Miguel protecting Rebecca but managing not to minimize Kevin's feelings. Which is NOT what happened last week. In fact, the only issue I had with Miguel in the grocery store was him talking to Kevin about "dumping all over" Rebecca in the therapy session. But as I recall, Kevin only yelled at Rebecca and Randall after they interrupted him and tried to shut him down as he painfully shared his feelings and his childhood memories--the way his therapist directed him to. If anyone was dumped on last week, it was Kevin. (But we're not talking about last week's episode. So, sorry). 

[qtpye]

20 minutes ago, topanga said:

I'm here for all of this. (I couldn't find the original poster, so I quoted both of you.) I find it fascinating that Beth and young Rebecca are put in very similar situations: their well-meaning husbands make impulsive decisions that affect the entire family but rarely consult their wives until after the decision has been made. Both women voice their concerns but usually go along with their well-meaning husbands' ideas. I do think Beth is more outspoken than Rebecca was. Maybe it's a generational thing. Or maybe Beth and Randall have always been equal partners when it comes to running their household, but ever since he found William, Randall's been making more and more big decisions without consulting Beth. Or is doing a lot of uncharacteristic things that she knows from experience can lead to stress and mental health issues. Or even medical issues--which is why she had a talk with William early on about Randall's episode of blindness. 

 

I completely agree. I like Miguel, too--despite that dreadful aging makeup. I swear, they make that handsome man look like a phantom. Anyway, I liked Miguel protecting Rebecca but managing not to minimize Kevin's feelings. Which is NOT what happened last week. In fact, the only issue I had with Miguel in the grocery store was him talking to Kevin about "dumping all over" Rebecca in the therapy session. But as I recall, Kevin only yelled at Rebecca and Randall after they interrupted him and tried to shut him down as he painfully shared his feelings and his childhood memories--the way his therapist directed him to. If anyone was dumped on last week, it was Kevin. (But we're not talking about last week's episode. So, sorry). 

That's true but remember Miguel did not see that.  He only got Rebecca's probably very biased version of the story.  Miguel thinks that Jack and Rebecca were the perfect couple and probably did envy that, though not maliciously, to some degree, particularly after he got divorced.  Miguel probably only sees Kevin as the incredibly handsome charming kid that got everything handed to him on a silver platter, which included an awesome family.  He was not there for the everyday group dynamics and probably does feel like Kevins is attacking Rebecca for trivial things.

[mojoween]

13 hours ago, TeapotDiva said:

I was wondering how Madison knew so much about this bridal-dress shop (unless the owner was a friend of hers).  Perhaps she had been engaged earlier, bought her dress there, and then for some reason (break-up, death) didn't get married?  That also could explain why she binged and purged at the shop.  Just a thought.

I thought I heard Madison say that the dress shop owner was a friend of hers and it was a favor?  

Randall is always making the corny jokes and it shows that his mind was a million miles away when the super made her “super” joke.  Personally, I thought it was funny.

Edited January 18, 2018 by mojoween

[debraran]

34 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think part of why Jesse was dropped is because Denis O'Hare is too busy for more occasional guest spots on this show.  And I do think the reveal that William had a male lover was just a way to squeeze a "twist" into another season one ep.  

Randall being almost socially clueless does bother me a little.  The young Randalls seem quiet and observant and respectful.  37 year old Randall is kind of tone deaf to social niceties.  It doesn't jibe with the geniuses I know with anxiety issues.  If anything, they clam up in company because they know it's easy to stick your foot in your mouth.  Randall just runs around saying stupid shit and making exaggerated faces like he's never worried about a thing in his life.  Like his smug smile at the super when he asked if she was sleeping with William.  

I hope they have at least one show with him again. He seemed to want that. From interview:

Now, O’Hare hopes season two will explore Jessie and William’s life together, even though William is gone.

“I think we're going to find out more about their past,” he teases. “I hope. I mean, come on. The show exists in so many time periods, nobody's ever really dead. It's kind of like this show, I'm in good company.”

I thought they said Jesse had the cat or the crazy neighbor. Seemed to find a good home either way.

I didn't like how much Randall wanted William to have a girlfriend when he was with Jesse, it's like he wanted that to erase the other a bit. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Jillybean]

28 minutes ago, mojoween said:

I thought I heard Madison say that the dress shop owner was a friend of hers and it was a favor?  

Yes, she greeted the woman on the shop with a hug and remarked on how skinny she was ("I hate you").  I don't think it has been pointed out in this thread yet, but Madison also apparently paid the fee for the appointment, from what she told Kate afterward.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Jillybean

[MissLucas]

I find the writing for Randall off this season. Last season he was shown as someone who's desperate to be perfect in all the roles in life: husband, father, son, professional (the brother thing is a bit iffy  but I'll let it slide). In fact he worried so much to fulfill his own and others expectations that it fueled his anxiety issues to the point of another breakdown. In other words he was someone who knew how to read a room, painfully aware of his surroundings and how he was perceived. This season he's mostly clueless and doesn't even notice, he makes situations that are not about him all about him (that happened frequently with Deja) and is tone-deaf to the growing frustration in his wife's voice.  He puts his daughters who were still grieving for their grandfather through the experience of yet another relationship with an expiration date and instead of slowing down he wants to rush right into the next big emotional roller-coaster. As someone pointed out above he looks more and more like a bipolar person and not like someone who's finally breaking away from problematic personality traits because he had a liberating experience.  To me his exuberance looks like he's heading to yet another breakdown. Quite frankly I see season one Randall as in a better place than season two Randall - but I'm not sure that's how the writers want me to see it.

Edited January 18, 2018 by MissLucas

[Wouldofshouldof]

On 1/16/2018 at 9:15 PM, Lady Calypso said:

How far DOES Randall live from William's old place? I swear, in season 1, it felt like it was hours away, judging by William spending hours on a bus.

Have you ever ridden a (local) bus, lol?  It takes forever to go a few miles.

[topanga]

I forgot to acknowledge the shout out to Tiny House Hunters, a show I hate-watch. “Where are we going to put our hot tub?”

[Clanstarling]

5 minutes ago, topanga said:

I forgot to acknowledge the shout out to Tiny House Hunters, a show I hate-watch. “Where are we going to put our hot tub?”

I always wait for the "not big enough" line. Makes me laugh every time.

[Guest]

William's apt. was in Philly, which is 2 hours in a car from Randall's home in northern NJ. 

I need to rewatch, I missed a ton of dialog.  So he drove Beth 2 hours to see the apt. building, after seeing it himself?  He couldn't just tell her?  Or are they just going to ignore that it was that far away last season?  

Also, I was wondering why Kevin had no cast.  Was this after the cast was off?   They must have had a line about it I missed.  Thanks.

[smartymarty]

Quote

No.  William named the cat Clooney because he liked women singers.  Rosemary Clooney, not George.

No, they specifically said that he named it Clooney ironically because it was ugly. I remember because, despite not really liking cats, I didn't think the cat was that ugly.

Quote

The others at least came from  money or just borrowed from Chandler.

Monica's apartment was rent controlled and Ross could afford his own apartment as a Ph.D. Though Rachel's parents were wealthy, they cut off her credit cards early in the first season, hence her needing the waitressing job. Chandler covered Joey when acting gigs were scarce.

I think that Madison and Kate will be good friends. Though their food obsessions have the opposite results, they both go to food for comfort (hence Madison's inclusion in the same support group as overweight people). The only problem with that may be that it indulges Kate's preference of taking care of others instead of herself.

[Clanstarling]

1 minute ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Also, I was wondering why Kevin had no cast.  Was this after the cast was off?   They must have had a line about it I missed.  Thanks.

When they bought the suit? He did have it (though I don't believe he could get a suit leg over it for one minute). Jack said the suit would fit better when the cast came off.

[smartymarty]

Quote

William's apt. was in Philly, which is 2 hours in a car from Randall's home in northern NJ. 

I thought they lived closer Princeton, which would make it an hour/hour and a half during rush hour.

[topanga]

3 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

I thought they lived closer Princeton, which would make it an hour/hour and a half during rush hour.

Someone a few episodes ago mentioned the name of their town based on their mail. I can’t recall the name,  however. 

[Lady Calypso]

5 minutes ago, topanga said:

Someone a few episodes ago mentioned the name of their town based on their mail. I can’t recall the name,  however. 

I just looked it up and apparently, it did say Alpine, NJ. 

I totally forgot that they lived in Alpine. Beth mentioned Trenton in this episode, so I automatically assumed that's where they lived, which is much closer to Philly than Alpine is, hence the confusion as to why I thought William's bus trip took three hours one way. 

[ShadowFacts]

7 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I just looked it up and apparently, it did say Alpine, NJ. 

I totally forgot that they lived in Alpine. Beth mentioned Trenton in this episode, so I automatically assumed that's where they lived, which is much closer to Philly than Alpine is, hence the confusion as to why I thought William's bus trip took three hours one way. 

Adding to the confusion, we don't really know where she works, and it seems they went from her work to William's. 

[smartymarty]

There was something said in this episode -- maybe about Beth's failed project -- that made me think Princeton.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

When they bought the suit? He did have it (though I don't believe he could get a suit leg over it for one minute). Jack said the suit would fit better when the cast came off.

Shows how little I watched.  I only glanced at the screen once, I guess, and he was in a suit without a cast showing so I assumed it was off.  

I'm rewatching now.  Was 'oof' really a thing back then?  Rebecca and Jack both just said it.

And I don't know who Beth works for that wants to build a park in Trenton but is NOT the city itself, who chose Costco.  Where I live, parks are built by the city.  

[smartymarty]

Ah, that was the remark. I figured if Beth wanted a park in Trenton, the closest upscale area was Princeton. Of course, she could be in North Jersey (Trenton/Princeton is Central Jersey) for that. But then I'd think she'd set her sights on Newark instead.

The City planning board would approve a Costco development request over a City department's request for a park. (Beth might work not for the City, but been hired by it to design the park or to lobby for it.)

[Guest]

I think since Randall said he was 'in the neighborhood' of Beth's work, they're placing her job in Trenton, possibly for the city, and just hand waving the Alpine distance?  

Questions from rewatch: 

How did Kate (and apparently the dress clerk) know Madison puked?  Because she ate cookies and is thin and went to the bathroom?  

Why did teen Kate have "7" written on her wrist?  It was her goal size, but she couldn't remember it that far? 

The whole teen Kate story I just didn't get.  I do understand wanting to be smaller then.  I don't agree with the voice-over that I miss the voice telling myself I'm never good enough.  No way!  I feel a little annoyed if the suggestion is that we women cling to our self-loathing like a security blanket.  I think that's a rare case of self-destructiveness.  And this is supposed to be pre-disaster Kate.  She's so messed up simply from having a thin mom?  

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

And I don't know who Beth works for that wants to build a park in Trenton but is NOT the city itself, who chose Costco.  Where I live, parks are built by the city.  

I figure she works for a non-profit, possibly government agency, but not the city itself.  Or, even if she did work for the city, she would work for the Parks Department who wanted to put in a park and the whatever other department wanted the Costco, and the city went with Costco.

[smartymarty]

Quote

The whole teen Kate story I just didn't get.  I do understand wanting to be smaller then.  I don't agree with the voice-over that I miss the voice telling myself I'm never good enough.  No way!  I feel a little annoyed if the suggestion is that we women cling to our self-loathing like a security blanket.  I think that's a rare case of self-destructiveness.  And this is supposed to be pre-disaster Kate.  She's so messed up simply from having a thin mom?  

Thank you. I didn't understand this either. Her putting the size 5 dress on after the 7 fit I guess helped her feel low self worth again -- it made her feel good to feel bad about herself again??? I understand the anorexic "reasoning": I'm not a worthwhile person unless I'm thin, and I'm never thin enough so I'll keep dieting, exercising, purging. But applied to Kate this doesn't work: I'm not worthwhile if I'm fat, so now that I've lost weight . . . wait, now I'm a great person and never have to feel bad about myself again (even if for the wrong reason)! I'll never go back to fat! Oops, I like feeling bad about myself for being fat??? We've never been given a reason other than her weight for Kate not liking herself. So why would she want to stay that way?

Edited January 18, 2018 by smartymarty
double-posted somehow

[sasha206]

On 1/16/2018 at 11:09 PM, ForeverPluto said:

It seems that the dream Jack had of starting that Big 3 company will somehow live on through Randall because I think he's going to want to name this building something in that vein. The problem I'm having with this is that I'm not sure if Randall has really thought this through. It seems like a good idea in theory but once you factor in the costs and the other factors that come with restoring this building, tenants, etc., it's going to get overwhelming. Given that Randall has had two breakdowns, if I were Beth, I would be really concerned about all of this. It just seems like Randall is about finding and taking on the next big challenge. Unfortunately, Beth and the kids are along for the ride so when it all blows to hell, they deal with the fallout as well. I like Randall but he's being pretty selfish here. 

 

That's the thing.  NONE of the Big 3 nor their parents seem to think things through.  They just respond on impulses.  Which makes this show increasingly irritating to me.

[ShadowFacts]

45 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Why did teen Kate have "7" written on her wrist?  It was her goal size, but she couldn't remember it that far? 

The whole teen Kate story I just didn't get.  I do understand wanting to be smaller then.  I don't agree with the voice-over that I miss the voice telling myself I'm never good enough.  No way!  I feel a little annoyed if the suggestion is that we women cling to our self-loathing like a security blanket.  I think that's a rare case of self-destructiveness.  And this is supposed to be pre-disaster Kate.  She's so messed up simply from having a thin mom?  

I think the 7 on her wrist was courtesy of the exposition fairy so we could figure out what convoluted thing she was doing in the dressing room.

I am also unclear on the whole "I missed the voice that was telling me things when I was fat" business.  If the point is that she had used her weight as a reason for everything that went wrong or that she didn't like about herself and didn't know who she was without it, I suppose I sort of get it.  I'm guessing they wanted to add a layer of complexity to her inability to lose weight beyond just that Jack's death left a huge void and she comforted herself with food because he showed her love with food.  What it's done for me is make it clear that a support group is not nearly enough for her.  She needs big-time psych help.  She really shouldn't waste any more time fumbling around on her own. 

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Why did teen Kate have "7" written on her wrist?  It was her goal size, but she couldn't remember it that far? 

I don't think she wrote it just for the shopping trip. I can see her writing it every morning for weeks/months, to remind herself of her goal every time her hand reached for junk food (or any food). Some people put their weight loss goals on their fridge or pantry, Kate put it on her wrist.

[Katy M]

29 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

Thank you. I didn't understand this either. Her putting the size 5 dress on after the 7 fit I guess helped her feel low self worth again -- it made her feel good to feel bad about herself again??? I understand the anorexic "reasoning": I'm not a worthwhile person unless I'm thin, and I'm never thin enough so I'll keep dieting, exercising, purging. But applied to Kate this doesn't work: I'm not worthwhile if I'm fat, so now that I've lost weight . . . wait, now I'm a great person and never have to feel bad about myself again (even if for the wrong reason)! I'll never go back to fat! Oops, I like feeling bad about myself for being fat??? We've never been given a reason other than her weight for Kate not liking herself. So why would she want to stay that way?

I don't know if it makes sense in regard to Kate specifically, but it makes sense to me in a grander scheme.  I hate myself.  I think I am a terrible, horrible, awful person. So, if I achieve a goal, or if something good happens to me, I don't feel like I deserve it, and I kind of wish that I hadn't succeeded.  I know. It's completely messed up.   But, I can see where she's coming from, if looked at that way.

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I don't know if it makes sense in regard to Kate specifically, but it makes sense to me in a grander scheme.  I hate myself.  I think I am a terrible, horrible, awful person. So, if I achieve a goal, or if something good happens to me, I don't feel like I deserve it, and I kind of wish that I hadn't succeeded.  I know. It's completely messed up.   But, I can see where she's coming from, if looked at that way.

Exactly. I used to feel that way a lot when I was younger, but it's gotten better now that I'm in my 30s (though I still have my moments). I hope it gets better for you as well.

Edited January 18, 2018 by chocolatine

[smartymarty]

When she started to put on the size 7 dress, I said "no, she's not a size 7." More like an 11. Was very surprised. (And I was a 7 in the 80s.)

[Biggie B]

I totally and completely understood teen Kate's actions in the dressing room, as well as what adult Kate told Madison as they sat on the couch. Made absolute sense to me. For some of us, being thin is so utterly out of our comfort zone that if/when we achieve "thinness," it is abhorrent. It is frightening - it can mean that there are now certain expectations heaped on you that were not there before (even if those expectations are fabricated in our own minds). It is overwhelming to think of the amount of maintenance and hard work it's going to take to stay thin. It means you're no longer invisible and will be scrutinized from head to toe. The burden to look amazing 24/7 is suddenly a reality. Reverting back to the comfort and invisibility and routine and familiarity of being fat makes so much more sense. And, too, when you don't like yourself, you may feel you need to be punished - and being fat and perceived as ugly by others is your fitting punishment. You deserve to feel like crap. You're a failure, you must accept that punishment! So yeah...when teen Kate put on that size 7 dress that fit properly and looked at herself - it was awful for her - painful and scary. Then, trying to put on the size 5 dress and seeing that it didn't fit -aaahhh - back to normal, the ugly/horrible/unworthy fat self. Whew. I have SO SO SO been there, done that! A very well-written, excruciating little scene.

[luna1122]

There's no way teen Kate is a size 11. She's small and well proportioned. I wore a 7 back then too, tho more often a 9. I was sad when I couldn't fit into a 7, tho. Teen girls (and hell, most women of all ages) are hard on themselves, and tho I never hated myself and don't identify with Kate needing a mean little voice inside to tell her bad things, I get how vulnerable a dressing room can make one feel.

[chocolatine]

4 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

When she started to put on the size 7 dress, I said "no, she's not a size 7." More like an 11. Was very surprised. (And I was a 7 in the 80s.)

The mall flashback took place in 1997. Vanity sizing was already a thing by then. I can see Kate getting into a vanity-sized 7, especially since the dress was a flowy, spaghetti strap style. Something more fitted around the middle and shoulders/arms may not have worked for her in a size 7.

[Biggie B]

The actual size number is irrelevant. The dress that fit could've been labelled size yellow and the one that didn't fit could've been size blue. It's the fact that teen Kate was feeling like shit about herself, and didn't feel she deserved to look good in the dress that fit her.

[smartymarty]

Quote

Reverting back to the comfort and invisibility and routine and familiarity of being fat makes so much more sense. And, too, when you don't like yourself, you may feel you need to be punished - and being fat and perceived as ugly by others is your fitting punishment. You deserve to feel like crap. You're a failure, you must accept that punishment!

See, I understand that! I don't understand "I missed the voice telling myself I'm never good enough."

Quote

The mall flashback took place in 1997.

I should have clarified that I was a size 7 the decade before.

[Biggie B]

Quote

 I don't understand "I missed the voice telling myself I'm never good enough."

I interpreted that as Kate saying "It was scary not hearing that familiar refrain." We are often uncomfortable with change. We crave routine, it's comforting and familiar. So as awful as it is to tell yourself you aren't good enough, at least it's something familiar. As nasty as that voice is, it's recognizable. It's yours. It's a steady drumbeat that gets you through the day. Remove it, and you lose your rudder, your compass, your GPS.

[chocolatine]

3 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

I should have clarified that I was a size 7 the decade before.

You did. I was just saying that a size 7 in the 80s was probably smaller than in the 90s.

[MissLucas]

2 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

See, I understand that! I don't understand "I missed the voice telling myself I'm never good enough."

One possible explanation - once the voice is gone you have to shoulder responsibility for your life, your decisions and your actions. And that might be scarier than dealing with constant self-abuse.

[Guest]

Maybe teen Kate thought when she fit in a 7, she'd look in the mirror and see Rebecca-- beautiful, talented, thin.  But she looked and saw the same old Kate, just a little smaller, and knew she had to go lower.  That might've worked better for me in the voice-over than the one about missing the self-hate.  

I lose weight all the time, recently lost 20 back to goal, and I have to say that for me, the dressing room part is the BEST, when you're at goal.  BUT I think I'm pretty mentally healthy and I totally do also kind of feel like "Hm, another ten would probably be better..."  Usually that's in the gym mirrors.  

[PRgal]

21 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Maybe teen Kate thought when she fit in a 7, she'd look in the mirror and see Rebecca-- beautiful, talented, thin.  But she looked and saw the same old Kate, just a little smaller, and knew she had to go lower.  That might've worked better for me in the voice-over than the one about missing the self-hate.  

I lose weight all the time, recently lost 20 back to goal, and I have to say that for me, the dressing room part is the BEST, when you're at goal.  BUT I think I'm pretty mentally healthy and I totally do also kind of feel like "Hm, another ten would probably be better..."  Usually that's in the gym mirrors.  

 

That's what I thought too.  Kate is shorter than her mother, and when you're shorter, you're just going to "look bigger" in any given size when you're next to someone taller.  A size 6 at 5'2" is wider than a size 6 at 5'8".  

[BlancheDevoreaux]

What bothered me is how she was able to fit into the 7 with no struggle but the 5 was way too small. That's not how this works. If the 7 had been pretty snug, then I would buy her not being able to zip the size 5 more than halfway, but the 7 went on easily. For me, I can get clothes on that are a size or sometimes even two sizes too small. It just looks bad. If she could easily fit in the 7, she wouldn't have struggled as much with the 5.

[Gurkel]

12 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

What bothered me is how she was able to fit into the 7 with no struggle but the 5 was way too small. That's not how this works. If the 7 had been pretty snug, then I would buy her not being able to zip the size 5 more than halfway, but the 7 went on easily. For me, I can get clothes on that are a size or sometimes even two sizes too small. It just looks bad. If she could easily fit in the 7, she wouldn't have struggled as much with the 5.

TV magic

2 hours ago, sasha206 said:

 

That's the thing.  NONE of the Big 3 nor their parents seem to think things through.  They just respond on impulses.  Which makes this show increasingly irritating to me.

Right. But I do think Rebecca contemplates most things before doing them.

And people on this show believe in ambushing other people. They must think an ambush demonstrates spontaneity and passion. I think they’re just rude. Toby ambushed Kate when he came over to watch football after she said she wanted to be alone, arranged for her to sing at the nursing home, showed up at camp, etc. Randall and Jack ambush their wives constantly. Kevin ambushed Sophie.  Kevin ambushed Randall by just showing up at his house—and staying. People love to show up at each other’s jobs without calling. And  Madison ambushed Kate with the bridal shop appointment—although that one did turn out nicely. 

[chabelisaywow]

7 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I want to know where Madison got that throw.

At Toby's Ex's store

[-pj-]

From the ending, even though we know bea use of Kevin’s injury. Jack’s death is soon. It took a while after the episode to click this. When Rebecca first mentioned if they had forgot something at the mall. I thought of Randell. Don’t ask we why. Then it panned to the smoke alarm and the missing battery. They forgot the battery she had earlier asked to be reminded off. So when eventually the fire happens the smoke alarms weren’t working which could be why he didn’t get out as he didn’t have the warning. 

Does that mean we’re going to have scenes after his death of her blaming herself for this moment? Or others hinting towards it? you can’t blame the one who’s gone. Knowing it was the smallest preventable thing?