S35.E13: Million Dollar Night

[Special K]

17 minutes ago, watch2much said:

Exactly!  It didn't prove she established social relationships with someone, only that she picked up information about them.   Joe could have been just talking about that to someone and she overheard.  If her obnoxious personality came thru so thoroughly to the viewer in what we saw, imagine living with her all that time.  

I thought Joe got exactly what he asked for in this.  He was trying to shame her with a "gotcha" and didn't really consider that she might have something to say that he might not want broadcast.

[seltzer3]

16 minutes ago, watch2much said:

Exactly!  It didn't prove she established social relationships with someone, only that she picked up information about them.   Joe could have been just talking about that to someone and she overheard.  If her obnoxious personality came thru so thoroughly to the viewer in what we saw, imagine living with her all that time.  

Chrissy's alliance lost because of HUBRIS.  they never stopped to think that someone else was doing something to undermine them.  Devon was always so full of himself--though I give him credit for suspecting Ben had an idol.  Ryan and Chrissy were so conceited about their games.  They dropped the ball and suffered for it.

and for Ryan to be a superfan and not mastered starting a fire is amazing to me.  If I knew I was going on the show, I would make sure I had that down to a scienc.

In fairness, Joe was challenging Christy to come up with what she knew about him.  So of course she has to respond.  And how she responded, wasn't exactly a quantifiable random fact.  Looking at Joe's reaction, it didn't seem like it was something she overheard.  The other  thing was that (granted we didn't see that), no one in the jury refuted her when she said she made bonds with everyone (as opposed to Ryan).

Knowing Cole's ACT score was more random information.  That was hilarious.

The thing I didn't care for Ben at the FTC, was how he was totally exposed for him being petty at Cole.  Then he tries to spin it like he's being strategic, and the guy gets a pass for it.  Ben holds grudges and is incredibly petty with a lot of his interactions (Joe, Chrissy,etc.), but he seems to get away with it.  Because he's a Marine, and anti social.  If Chrissy did that, she would get called out for that. 

[peachmangosteen]

Meh. I was actually really enjoying the finale up until that bullshit final advantage. I loved watching a bunch of petty, stupid assholes try to navigate the endgame, but then it was ruined first by a sudden advantage that allowed Ben to win when if it had gone the way it always does he wouldn't have even made FTC and then by the fact that I was forced to be mad that Chrissy lost when I hate Chrissy!

9 hours ago, green said:

And of course Chrissy's advantage was really Ben's advantage.  I've never bought into conspiracy theories ever on Survivor ... until now.

I mean that was some Big Brother level shenanigans there. I never expected Survivor to go that far, though I don't know why. We all should've been prepared for Production to do what they needed to do to make 'good TV' in their minds.

20 minutes ago, seltzer3 said:

The thing I didn't care for Ben at the FTC, was how he was totally exposed for him being petty at Cole.  Then he tries to spin it like he's being strategic, and the guy gets a pass for it.  Ben holds grudges and is incredibly petty with a lot of his interactions (Joe, Chrissy,etc.), but he seems to get away with it.  Because he's a Marine, and anti social.  If Chrissy did that, she would get called out for that. 

This. Ben is just as much of a petty, smug asshole as Chrissy. Honestly I find it hilarious. The scene where they were both laying on the "I miss you" real thick and then giving confessionals about how they were totally lying had me rolling. I just wish the show didn't try to turn Ben into some fucking amazing hero. Gross.

Devon voting out Mike at F5 because he suspected Ben had the idol was a really great move. It's a shame he was robbed of a chance to plead his case at FTC because of a sudden, stupid twist. He was real bad at making fire though lol. I almost fell off my chair laughing when he was practicing but then the flint broke and he took that as a sign to stop practicing and meditate or whatever. Hilarious! 

Oh, Mike saying Ben was one of the best players ever and that he would go down as a legend was something else. I was like bitch where? I want whatever drugs Mike was on!

ETA: Wait, who voted for Chrissy? Ashley and JP?

Edited December 21, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[ghoulina]

19 minutes ago, seltzer3 said:

In fairness, Joe was challenging Christy to come up with what she knew about him.  So of course she has to respond.  And how she responded, wasn't exactly a quantifiable random fact.  Looking at Joe's reaction, it didn't seem like it was something she overheard.  The other  thing was that (granted we didn't see that), no one in the jury refuted her when she said she made bonds with everyone (as opposed to Ryan).

And Ashley even called Ben out, saying that while Ben TOLD people stuff, Chrissy ASKED people stuff - and that's more indicative of a good social game. IDK, I keep sounding like I'm defending Chrissy (who I largely disliked all season) against Ben (who I was rooting for since day one), but I don't think it's all so black and white. 

 

20 minutes ago, seltzer3 said:

The thing I didn't care for Ben at the FTC, was how he was totally exposed for him being petty at Cole.  Then he tries to spin it like he's being strategic, and the guy gets a pass for it.

See, I didn't think it was petty OR strategic. Cole was gross and he was selfish with the food. Someone THAT selfish would throw up red flags for me. I wouldn't be able to trust them. And it went beyond food. Cole blabbed Jessica's advantage to everyone. I think it really became a matter of Ben not being able to trust him, but it came off as petty because Cole simply had a lot of character traits that rubbed Ben wrong. But that's part of it. You have to be able to get along with people and live with them for over a month, and if you're driving everyone nuts (it wasn't just Ben), that's not petty - that's your fault for not being able to read people and control yourself better. 

[JudyObscure]

16 minutes ago, seltzer3 said:

Ben holds grudges and is incredibly petty with a lot of his interactions (Joe, Chrissy,etc.), but he seems to get away with it. 

I agree.  I've made no secret since day one that I can't stand Chrissy, but she was called on her smugness much more than Ben was and I will also always think she got screwed with the fire making, "advantage."

Ryan made us laugh with his, "I dared not  try to help around the camp for fear I might make a mistake and that would have been horrendous."  Riiight, Ryan.  Nothing spells instant eviction like carrying firewood and dropping a piece.  I just don't understand how someone can sit and do nothing while others work, even when a million dollars is at stake.

[Wings]

1 hour ago, Boilergal said:

Even Probst knew that people would call rigged with the special advantage when he said - this isn't a one off thing we are going to use this in upcoming seasons.

Not next season but upcoming.  If this happens next season, it might help the claim is was on the story board.  Might.  It could have been a last minute plan on that season too.   

I don't want to think this show is rigged.  It is the only one that I rely on to be pretty straight forward.  I have always disagreed with the conspiracy theories over the years but not so sure now.  Things have changed a lot.  

Peachy, listen up.  Stop with your chatting about the season before it airs.  He announced that Chrissy was his favorite.  That said she certainly made F4 at least.  He wouldn't have a favorite who was booted sooner.  If the entire season is spoiled I am there but this one piece of information took away my hope of her boot and had impact on my viewing pleasure.  So STFU.

3 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Meh. I was actually really enjoying the finale up until that bullshit final advantage. I loved watching a bunch of petty, stupid assholes try to navigate the endgame, but then it was ruined first by a sudden advantage that allowed Ben to win when if it had gone the way it always does he wouldn't have even made FTC and then by the fact that I was forced to be mad that Chrissy lost when I hate Chrissy!

Ha ha ha, and yes, I hear you. 

[ProfCrash]

28 minutes ago, amazingracefan said:

But you have to look at why Chrissy doesn't win and the jury were probably turned off by her attitude more than that of others.  Who's to say some who voted against her would't have done so with Ben not there too?

That is possible but the fact that the entire post merge discussion people mentioned that Ben would win with is back story tells me why he won. It is the reason why Lauren and Ashley wanted to get Ben out. It was part of the water discussion that Ben overheard. Those conversations about voting Ben out happened before he went on his hidden idol run.And that is fine, backstories are a part of the game. People recognized it and did the best they could to get Ben out. Chrissy did exactly what she did. She won the final immunity, one when Ben had no chance of playing a hidden idol. She should have been able to vote out Ben. Everyone knew that he needed to go because they knew that Ben would win based on his back story.

And in the end, Ben won.

He should not have been there. Production should be clear about how to get to the end game. It is not fun to watch a twist sink other people's game when they have no time to adjust for it.

I didn't like it when they screwed with the final two and made it a final three. I didn't like it when they switched it randomly to final two again. I don't like this stupid twist. People play the game based on the rules that they are told. Chrissy, Devon and Ryan did everything they were supposed to do and got screwed.

[Wings]

I missed who voted for whom and I don't care to go back.  :^)  Can some one please fill me in? 

[nutty1]

17 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Oh, Mike saying Ben was one of the best players ever and that he would go down as a legend was something else. I was like bitch where? I want whatever drugs Mike was on!

ETA: Wait, who voted for Chrissy? Ashley and JP?

I read on a Facebook Survivor page that this is how the votes went (shocked Mike voted for Chrissy)

Devon:  Ryan

Mike & Ashley:  Chrissy

Lauren, Joe, Des, JP & Cole:  Ben

 

I didn't think I was rooting for Ben, but I guess I was, because I was really nervous for him last night.

Chrissy played an awesome game. It was her personality that bugged me.

Devon was pretty smart in that F5 vote. Too bad he didn't practice making fire. If I was going on Survivor, I would learn how to make fire before anything. Then I would practice stacking, word puzzles, swimming, running, running up & down stairs, tossing things. 

I think that last advantage was totally unfair.

Question....if it was Devon instead of Ben in the F3, who do you think would have won?

Edited December 21, 2017 by nutty1

[Daisy]

1 minute ago, ProfCrash said:

That is possible but the fact that the entire post merge discussion people mentioned that Ben would win with is back story tells me why he won. It is the reason why Lauren and Ashley wanted to get Ben out. It was part of the water discussion that Ben overheard. Those conversations about voting Ben out happened before he went on his hidden idol run.And that is fine, backstories are a part of the game. People recognized it and did the best they could to get Ben out. Chrissy did exactly what she did. She won the final immunity, one when Ben had no chance of playing a hidden idol. She should have been able to vote out Ben. Everyone knew that he needed to go because they knew that Ben would win based on his back story.

And in the end, Ben won.

He should not have been there. Production should be clear about how to get to the end game. It is not fun to watch a twist sink other people's game when they have no time to adjust for it.

I didn't like it when they screwed with the final two and made it a final three. I didn't like it when they switched it randomly to final two again. I don't like this stupid twist. People play the game based on the rules that they are told. Chrissy, Devon and Ryan did everything they were supposed to do and got screwed.

 

I agree. 
twists like this is BS. It happened in Micronesia (ohh we're final two). - just announce when you realise that's the case - "hey y'all it's a final two." (ditto with Tony's season). to give the show credit - at least this bullshit twist is going to be next season (woo) so it's not just a "We pulled this to save Ben, we're gonna be consistent). 

[Paws]

Quote

If it were truly an advantage, then Chrissy should have been given the option to simply not use it. The only person who benefited from that advantage was Ben.

Exactly. These “advantages” are bullshit if you don’t have the choice not to use it.

Quote

I don't want to think this show is rigged.  It is the only one that I rely on to be pretty straight forward.  I have always disagreed with the conspiracy theories over the years but not so sure now.  Things have changed a lot.  

Ditto. 

[Daisy]

Just now, nutty1 said:

I read on a Facebook Survivor page that this is how the votes went (shocked Mike voted for Chrissy)

Devon:  Tyan

Mike & Ashley:  Chrissy

Lauren, Joe, Des, JP & Cole:  Ben

 

I didn't think I was rooting for Ben, but I guess I was, because I was really nervous for him last night.

Chrissy played an awesome game. It was her personality that bugged me.

Devon was pretty smart in that F5 vote. Too bad he didn't practice making fire. If I was going on Survivor, I would learn how to make fire before anything. Then I would practice stacking, word puzzles, swimming, running, running up & down stairs, tossing things. 

I think that last advantage was totally unfair.

Question....if it was Devon instead of Ben in the F3, who do you think would have won?

 

it's hard to say without speeches. I'd argue Devon though. 
the thing with the fire challenge.... i think we forget that the "performance of the moment" also impacts how it happens. like if you're freaking out and nervous it might not be able to do what you need to do. 

[amazingracefan]

Probst's  point about the third person at the final having to earn their place I think does make some sense.  Like on Big Brother the final challenge winner brings one person with them, but in Survivor there's 3 in the final so the other place has to be decided.  To just let two automatically go to the final is less drama.

[plurie]

10 minutes ago, Daisy said:

 

it's hard to say without speeches. I'd argue Devon though. 
the thing with the fire challenge.... i think we forget that the "performance of the moment" also impacts how it happens. like if you're freaking out and nervous it might not be able to do what you need to do. 

I totally agree. If Devon had won the fire-making, and gave a halfway decent performance for the jury, I think he might have won over Chrissy. Being able to cite the very recent success, and other good moves like putting down Mike's name and getting Ben to be a "double agent" (and being more personable than Chrissy), I think he could have won.

 

Without the fire-making, he looks a lot more like a coat-tail rider and would probably have lost to Chrissy.

[Daisy]

9 minutes ago, amazingracefan said:

Probst's  point about the third person at the final having to earn their place I think does make some sense.  Like on Big Brother the final challenge winner brings one person with them, but in Survivor there's 3 in the final so the other place has to be decided.  To just let two automatically go to the final is less drama.

 

or just stop having final threes and go back to final two

[peachmangosteen]

I think Devon had a decent shot at winning if he'd made F3, the traditional way or by winning the fire making challenge. He had a few 'big moves' that he could've talked up and he was probably better liked than Chrissy by most of the jury. Honestly, Chrissy probably would've lost to all of the F5 except Ryan.

[amazingracefan]

1 minute ago, Daisy said:

 

or just stop having final threes and go back to final two

I think they went to final 3s as a final 2 could be more predictable and a chance of a landslide vote.

[Wings]

1 minute ago, amazingracefan said:

I think they went to final 3s as a final 2 could be more predictable and a chance of a landslide vote.

 This year is an exception but usually there is one of the F3 who does not receive a vote.

Devon broke the flint so he couldn't have practiced had he wanted to.  His statement that it was a sign was light hearted.  What else was he going to do but adapt that attitude.  <shrug>

[Daisy]

6 minutes ago, amazingracefan said:

I think they went to final 3s as a final 2 could be more predictable and a chance of a landslide vote.

right. but as a lot of seasons have proven - that doesn't help. there have been just as many landslide votes with a final 3 than there have been with a final two. I did the numbers during the off-season. 

[NeverLate]

9 hours ago, GaT said:

I really enjoyed Ben & his third idol, & then the killer final challenge, & then, FIRE! I was on the edge of my seat the entire show, well done.

Me too. There are laws and rules for this show, Burnett is no fool, if he changed them, he'd be in big trouble. In fact it was Chrissy who chose the ending. She was asked to choose one person, the other two would battle it out. Good old Chrissy had to tell Devon the  secret advantage, so he really should of won. I'm betting Ben looked for hours and hours for idols. No way is anyone shown them, and they can't complain when he finds them, going from night to morning, and they sleep? We see a tiny part, otherwise we'd just follow Ben looking for an idol. 

16 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I think Devon had a decent shot at winning if he'd made F3, the traditional way or by winning the fire making challenge. He had a few 'big moves' that he could've talked up and he was probably better liked than Chrissy by most of the jury. Honestly, Chrissy probably would've lost to all of the F5 except Ryan.

I agree, thats why he voted Ryan, it still stung that Chrissy took away his chance. She focused on the wrong person.

[peachmangosteen]

5 minutes ago, NeverLate said:

I agree, thats why he voted Ryan, it still stung that Chrissy took away his chance. She focused on the wrong person.

I think she was likely gonna lose to both Devon and Ben so it didn't ultimately matter. And I certainly see why she was focused more on Ben because he really was her biggest threat. She might have beat Devon, she wasn't ever going to beat Ben.

[NeverLate]

37 minutes ago, Wings said:

I missed who voted for whom and I don't care to go back.  :^)  Can some one please fill me in? 

Devon:  Ryan

Mike & Ashley:  Chrissy

Lauren, Joe, Des, JP & Cole:  Ben

 

Lauren never liked Chrissy. Joe really respected the way Ben played the game. I knew he'd have those two.

I wonder who Ben would have taken if he'd have won immunity, that upside down U..!  I had heard there was a twist at the end of this season, I'd of loved Chrissy to make fire!:)

Just now, peachmangosteen said:

I think she was likely gonna lose to both Devon and Ben so it didn't ultimately matter. And I certainly see why she was focused more on Ben because he really was her biggest threat. She might have beat Devon, she wasn't ever going to beat Ben.

Yes, I agree. I don't think she would have won over Devon..

She lost sight of her game, it became personal..

[Alapaki]

I just read the Q&A with Probst over at ew.com and I have to come out of lurking this season:

Quote

This idea came about to solve a problem that has bothered me for years. If someone plays a great game and gets to the final four, it has always bothered me that the other three can simply say, “We can’t beat him, so let’s all just vote him out.”

THAT'S THE FUCKING FORMAT OF THE ENTIRE DAMNED SHOW!!!!!!  

It's bothered him for years?  But they do something about it when his alpha-male man-crush is facing certain F4 elimination.  

[NeverLate]

36 minutes ago, amazingracefan said:

Probst's  point about the third person at the final having to earn their place I think does make some sense.  Like on Big Brother the final challenge winner brings one person with them, but in Survivor there's 3 in the final so the other place has to be decided.  To just let two automatically go to the final is less drama.

I love that ending, you earn that right! I hope we see that again.

[peachmangosteen]

Fucking fuck, shut up Probst! He's ruining this show.

8 minutes ago, NeverLate said:

She lost sight of her game, it became personal..

I just don't agree. It made complete sense for Chrissy to get rid of Ben. It's a shame a last minute twist she couldn't plan for kept her from being able to follow through on her sound strategy. But that's how it goes. And she would've lost to Devon, too, so ultimately it didn't matter. But I still understand why she thought booting Ben was the better strategic decision and I think she was right about that.

Edited December 21, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[seltzer3]

6 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

I just read the Q&A with Probst over at ew.com and I have to come out of lurking this season:

THAT'S THE FUCKING FORMAT OF THE ENTIRE DAMNED SHOW!!!!!!  

It's bothered him for years?  But they do something about it when his alpha-male man-crush is facing certain F4 elimination.  

The hilarious thing about "fixing" the format is that players are just going to naturally adjust.  All of Probst's favorite contestants will just be voted out sooner as a result.

Probst hates a specific type of player (UTR females that are very social).  He wants to do as much as possible to make sure they don't win.  Hilariously, is that this twist, Michele would have still won.

Edited December 21, 2017 by seltzer3
Forgot some additional things.

[NeverLate]

Just now, peachmangosteen said:

Fucking fuck, shut up Probst! He's ruining this show.

I just don't agree. It made complete sense for Chrissy to get rid of Ben. It's a shame a last minute twist she couldn't plan for kept her from being able to follow through on her sound strategy. But that's how it goes. And she wouldn't lost to Devon, too, so ultimately it didn't matter. But I still understand why she thought booting Ben was the better strategic decision and I think she was right about that.

I think Devon would have won. Its just a twist at the end. As I said, Ben nearly won the last immunity, the twist still would of been there, and will be again..

[Alapaki]

1 minute ago, seltzer3 said:

The hilarious thing about "fixing" the format is that players are just going to naturally adjust.  All of Probst's favorite contestants will just be voted out sooner as a result.

That's right.  And if/when that happens, we'll see a three-way fire-making challenge with the F4 bootee given a chance to "fight their way back into the game".  

They should just call it what it is, the Probst-Boner-Making challenge.

[Special K]

The fire-making itself was not a problem.  The problem was that the contestants didn't know about it until it was too late to adjust for it.  It's kind of like moving the finish line, or changing the rules of how the game is won in the last period.

[EVS]

1 hour ago, Rachel RSL said:

I remember people mentioning that early in the season and, while I can definitely see the resemblance, that's not who he reminds me of.  I just can't pinpoint who it is exactly. Luckily, I tend to forget most reality show contestants the second they're off my tv screen so at least it won't drive me crazy for too long.

At the reunion, I thought Devon looked like Josh Peck.

[NeverLate]

7 minutes ago, Special K said:

The fire-making itself was not a problem.  The problem was that the contestants didn't know about it until it was too late to adjust for it.  It's kind of like moving the finish line, or changing the rules of how the game is won in the last period.

Three knew, Ben clearly didn't. I love a good twist! 

[Alapaki]

What they've done is, after having Probst bloat on about the "final immunity challenge before FTC", insert another immunity challenge.  Fire-making was always a sort of punishment for tie votes at F4, either forcing the players to reach consensus or make a strategic decision to send the elimination outcome to fire-making.  Now the fire-making is a consolation immunity challenge for two of the players (inevitably including the F4 target) who weren't good enough to win the F4 IC.  

And it also formalizes the free-ticket-for-the-goat into FTC.  

This dilutes some of the pressure and value of the F4 IC, which is supposed to be this epic thing

[amazingracefan]

5 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

What they've done is, after having Probst bloat on about the "final immunity challenge before FTC", insert another immunity challenge.  Fire-making was always a sort of punishment for tie votes at F4, either forcing the players to reach consensus or make a strategic decision to send the elimination outcome to fire-making.  Now the fire-making is a consolation immunity challenge for two of the players (inevitably including the F4 target) who weren't good enough to win the F4 IC.  

And it also formalizes the free-ticket-for-the-goat into FTC.  

This dilutes some of the pressure and value of the F4 IC, which is supposed to be this epic thing

The immunity challenge still gets someone a final place and who wins it changes who may get the free pass.  I would prefer if it wasn't always just fire making though and had some other skill involved, or even was just a more usual Survivor challenge.  I'm not sure people should know the full details of the challenge well in advance.

Edited December 21, 2017 by amazingracefan

[Special K]

4 minutes ago, amazingracefan said:

 I would prefer if it wasn't always just fire making though and had some other skill involved, or even was just a more usual Survivor challenge.  I'm not sure people should know the full details of the challenge well in advance.

Like maybe open a coconut?  Yeah, I like the idea of it being something else.  How about braiding palm fronds?!?  The he-men would plotz!

[Alapaki]

2 minutes ago, Special K said:

Like maybe open a coconut?  Yeah, I like the idea of it being something else.  How about braiding palm fronds?!?  The he-men would plotz!

Maybe a random selection between a puzzle-type challenge, an endurance-type challenge, a "skill"-type challenge (like fire-making) etc. 

If they keep this "twist" around, starting with next fall's season everyone will be prepared for this challenge and strategize accordingly. 

[spiderpig]

I'm fine with anything that brings awareness to PTSD.  It is a horrible affliction and an ongoing nightmare, even if many feel Ben was grandstanding a bit.

Mr. pig suffers daily - and he left active duty over 40 years ago after his Nam tour.

[amazingracefan]

3 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

Maybe a random selection between a puzzle-type challenge, an endurance-type challenge, a "skill"-type challenge (like fire-making) etc. 

If they keep this "twist" around, starting with next fall's season everyone will be prepared for this challenge and strategize accordingly. 

Yes I was thinking that the next season to air has been completed already??  In which case they still won't know about the twist unless they are told it in advance.

[Daisy]

29 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

What they've done is, after having Probst bloat on about the "final immunity challenge before FTC", insert another immunity challenge.  Fire-making was always a sort of punishment for tie votes at F4, either forcing the players to reach consensus or make a strategic decision to send the elimination outcome to fire-making.  Now the fire-making is a consolation immunity challenge for two of the players (inevitably including the F4 target) who weren't good enough to win the F4 IC.  

And it also formalizes the free-ticket-for-the-goat into FTC.  

This dilutes some of the pressure and value of the F4 IC, which is supposed to be this epic thing

that's pretty much it. it's (in my opinion) justifying a bad decision. 
Final 3 is dumb. it should be final two. 
Then the argument is well it prevents goats. 
No it doesn't - it just means you generally get two goats instead of one. 

I feel i should copy and paste this

Borneo: 4 - 3
Outback - 4-3
Africa - 5- 2 
Marquesas - 4-3
Thailand - 4-3
Amazon - 6-1 (because Matthew was creepy  and he basically admitted that he didn't really play the game.)
Pearl islands 6 -1 (because it was Lil. had it been someone not int he Outcast tribe I don't think it's this blow outy)
All Stars - 4-3
Vanuatu: 5-2 
Palau: 6-1 (well deserved - woulda been close had Ian not Ian'ed)
Guatemala (6-1. Stephanie was bru.tal.)
Panama (5-2)
Micronesia - 5-3 
Tocancins - 7-0 
Cagayan - 8-1. (because Woo. was flipping stupid. but I don't think had Kass been there it would have been a blown out, nor would it have been one had it been Spencer/Tony, Tony/Kass). 


so basically - the first 12 seasons, it was pretty darned even.  all the blow outs totally make sense if you knew the background of that season.  Stephen wasn't a goat, he just had a HORRIBLE final, and JT totally tap-danced. Katie (Goat) but Ian gave it to her. Danielle + Kim ("goats") but they won final immunity  (which is the point).

in the final 3 format.

Cook Islands - 5-4 (Yul, totally could have been Ozzy, Becky. 0 votes)
Fiji 9-0. (Dreamz was never winning after the car thing, and Cassandra: goat)
China: 4-2-1. (Is Courtney a goat? is Amanda? if Amanda doesn't choke and Courtney isn't there it's a lot closer or is it more of a Todd blow out/) )
Gabon 4-3-0 (Sugar is the Goat)
Samoa: 7-2-0 (Mick + Russell, end of story)
HvV: 6-3-0. (Russell goat again)
Nicaragua: 5-4-0 (but people fully admitted Chase got a lot of pity votes,)
Redemption Island: 8-1-0 (that whole season was goat-y)
South Pacific (6-3-0)
One World: (7-2-0)
Philippines (6-1-1)
Caramoan (8-0-0 - but I claim bitter betty cakes, Dawn should have gotten some but whatever)
San Juan del Sur: 5-2-1
Blood vs. water: 7-1-0
Worlds Apart: 6-1-1
Cambodia: 10-0-0
Kaoh Rong: 5-2-0
M vs GenX: 10-0-0 
Game Changers: 7-3-0

and now. HHH: 5-2-1

 

whatever ideology the show had regarding goats, and easy wins. went out the window a long time ago. I think having two people going against the jury (even in this new format) makeshift more sense then forcing a third person sit there and be all "oh did stuff too" (votes indicate otherwise) and you don't have to worry about the stupid "tie" breaker because you'll always have that "final odd" person to trump it. and it just makes more emotional sense. you start off as 16 (18, 20), and then it's just the two of you to become the sole survivor.  



 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Daisy

[mythoughtis]

This show has always had twists. 

Not saying the word merge when you put both tribes together while THEY think they are merged, for example. 

Tribe swaps that save some people and doom others.  Exile island that saved people who were next to be voted off. People who got voted off when the boat landed on the beach. 

The fact that this one came late in the game is no different.  

Chrissy took gameplay and  made it Personal. ‘Ben, how dare you write my name. Explain why you did that, justify it.’ .  Turning on people because they dared to play their own game.  Ben didn’t expect people to play his game- he just adjusted his play accordingly. He voted out  Lauren ( my favorite) because he figured out there was a plan in place to vote him. That’s fair- that’s the same as Devon voting Mike out on a hunch. 

Social game sounds easy on our couch. Substitute sleeping on the ground, a bathroom that’s a hole,  lack of  sleep, food, friends, TV, phone and COFFEE? I wouldn’t have social game either. 

As to Cole, his food issue was a lot more than just eating a little extra peanut butter. The editors don’t make up scenes of someone  eating everything in sight. They can manipulate it- but they can’t show it out of thin air. 

I missed Chrissy’s Joe knowledge comment - what was it again? 

Edited December 21, 2017 by mythoughtis

[aurora296]

I'm watching this this on the website. I found myself getting more and more irked that immunity idols seemed to be easy to find ala Russ Hanz for Ben. I felt there was a bit of production manipulation that made me begin to  root against Ben winning, so TPTB wouldn't get their way. 

I was relieved to see someone else other than ben with the final immunity and figured he was done. That's how it works, right? NOOO! Stupid manipulative Survivor!! Lemme guess who your favorite is??? Now the crappy "advantage" was for Ben to get another chance that no one else ever has before to make fire and get to final three. 

I was screaming in my living room for Devon to build that damn fire. Of course he was given some old flint or something. I just wasn't buying it that Devon was having a difficult time with his fire. As soon as Ben won, I was done! I shut my TV off and don't even care to check who actually won the game, because I can already guess. 

This is the first time EVER that I've shut off Survivor. I've never in my life missed an episode. 

Devon was robbed!! and I'd say Chrissy too. When it came down to it, the final 3 immunity didn't matter at all. Whomever won didn't get to decide who to vote off. 

Survivor has officially jumped the shark. Worst season ever. I think after all these years, I'm done. 

[ProfCrash]

19 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

Not saying the word merge when you put both tribes together while THEY think they are merged, for example. 

They did that once and never repeated it. Why? Because people bitched loudly that it wasn't fair. I actually liked that one, it was tricky and I thought fair play. Jeff has always announced that the tribes merge or that someone is the first jury member. So that was not said, meaning no merge. Listen to the Host is a good rule for any reality TV show.

This is different. This is a massive change that effects the end of the game without giving people a chance to recover. If they had told people, so people know about it, I would be fine with it. Springing it on people at the very end is simply BS.

[niklj]

I was disappointed there was no gigantic obstacle course challenge this year.

[spiderpig]

Just now, niklj said:

I was disappointed there was no gigantic obstacle course challenge this year.

Channeling our inner twelve-year-olds, Mr. pig and I always enjoyed the stunts like punching each other with sandbags while their bathing suits fell off and they had to fuzz the images in post production.

Good old days.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I don't think the producers would rig things for Ben and Ben alone. I mean, maybe an investigation is in order, but I don't think Burnett would get into trouble. 

Why not? Let us disabuse ourselves of the notion that there is some law preventing producer manipulation, here and now. We have covered this topic repeatedly over the years. "Survivor" and other reality shows are not categorized as "game shows" and are not subject to the same regulations. They are classified as "entertainment," and there is nothing stopping production from helping their perceived fan favorites along in the game. Nothing.

Look, I could debate endlessly whether or not production helped Ben find all those idols. I mean, sure, it's equally possible he just found them through sheer luck and determination and none of the camera crew or anyone tipped him off. But that so-called "advantage" Chrissy got? Was not an advantage. That's really not up for debate. In no way, shape or form did it give her an advantage. It effectively prevented her, Devon and Ryan from voting out Ben, plain and simple. That's some Grade-A bullshit, right there.

And I have no problem believing there was another "advantage" on stand-by just in case Ben won final immunity. Something to the effect of "you get to nullify one jury vote." The producers knew damn well Ben was going to get voted out if he didn't win immunity and they were prepared to prevent it even before they knew who won. This was planned.

[MissEwa]

36 minutes ago, Daisy said:

that's pretty much it. it's (in my opinion) justifying a bad decision. 
Final 3 is dumb. it should be final two. 
Then the argument is well it prevents goats. 
No it doesn't - it just means you generally get two goats instead of one. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Alapaki said:

What they've done is, after having Probst bloat on about the "final immunity challenge before FTC", insert another immunity challenge.  Fire-making was always a sort of punishment for tie votes at F4, either forcing the players to reach consensus or make a strategic decision to send the elimination outcome to fire-making.  Now the fire-making is a consolation immunity challenge for two of the players (inevitably including the F4 target) who weren't good enough to win the F4 IC.  

And it also formalizes the free-ticket-for-the-goat into FTC.  

This dilutes some of the pressure and value of the F4 IC, which is supposed to be this epic thing

 

1 hour ago, Alapaki said:

I just read the Q&A with Probst over at ew.com and I have to come out of lurking this season:

THAT'S THE FUCKING FORMAT OF THE ENTIRE DAMNED SHOW!!!!!!  

It's bothered him for years?  But they do something about it when his alpha-male man-crush is facing certain F4 elimination.  

All this. They went from F2 to F3 because Probst wanted to stop the "best player" being eliminated at F3 in favour of a goat (not coincidentally, I don't think, right after Terry's loss), but all that happened is that the "best player" started being eliminated at F4. If this "twist" had been in place in Second Chances Kelly Wentworth might have won. Malcolm almost certainly would have won Phillipines. Both those wins would make me extremely happy, but neither of them would have been worth a damn. Those players lost because that's Survivor. This isn't (IMO).  

When it was F2 you not only got the immunity but you got to choose the ONE person who sat next to you. It was super-powerful but also super-risky, because you had to pick the right person, and sometimes you had to break alliances to do that. But it was all on you, for better or worse - hence all the hand-wringing and crying by people who won that final immunity, hence, according to some, Richard Hatch bowing out of the final immunity in Borneo. With an F3 that diluted a bit - if you won final immunity you still had the biggest say but it was possible for two non-immune players to force a tie and potentially over-rule you. With this... that last immunity gives you even less power, while at the same time removing the blood from your hands that is so often there when the FI winner turns on an alliance-mate. It's not a twist, it's a whole re-write of the end part of the game. 

 

2 hours ago, amazingracefan said:

Probst's  point about the third person at the final having to earn their place I think does make some sense.  Like on Big Brother the final challenge winner brings one person with them, but in Survivor there's 3 in the final so the other place has to be decided.  To just let two automatically go to the final is less drama.

It's not "automatic" - there's a vote. The other place is decided in a vote. You spend 38 days forming alliances and playing a game - by the rules you've been told - in the hope that if you don't win FTC you will be in the right alliance and not get voted out. You can't idol your way in, or use an advantage. You have to win FI, or be on the right side of the numbers.  That's how you earn your place.

[cooksdelight]

Ben deserved the win. He hung in there and never gave up. He outplayed, outwitted and outlasted everyone else.

And anyone who thinks he’s not the epitome of a hero... leave your family, your comfortable home, go out into the desert in a foreign country and carry a gun, hoping you don’t get shot first, defending your country. We are all in his debt.

[MissEwa]

2 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

Ben deserved the win. He hung in there and never gave up. He outplayed, outwitted and outlasted everyone else.

And anyone who thinks he’s not the epitome of a hero... leave your family, your comfortable home, go out into the desert in a foreign country and carry a gun, hoping you don’t get shot first, defending your country. We are all in his debt.

I would actually have been fine with a Ben win if he had somehow made it to the F3 without this twist. He did play harder than anyone else, and they voted for him. 

I don't see what your second point has to do with whether or not he should have won Survivor, though? 

[cooksdelight]

My second point was my personal thought about the man.

The twist had nothing to do with favoritism for Ben. As you said, he played harder than anyone, and he worked harder than Devon when it came to building a fire. Chrissy had it in her head that by telling Devon about the challenge, he’d practice and win. Didn’t turn out that way.

[ProfCrash]

Chrissy hung in there and never gave up. She was on the block at the first Tribal because she was an older woman. Her name was actively bandied about. Chrissy had to form an alliance with people outside her original tribe, Ryan, because she had been ignored by most of her original tribe. She was in the majority alliance, with Ben, until Lauren/Ben/Ashley/Devon decided to vote out JP. Then Chrissy was at the bottom. Ben was still in the majority. Ben found himself on the outs after he overheard the conversation between Ashley/Lauren/Devon at the water well. Ben painted a massive target on himself after that based on his over the top play, comments and camp, and behavior at tribal.

So to argue that Ben deserved the win because he never gave up ignores the fact that Chrissy never gave up. She won her first individual immunity After the JP vote because she knew she was in danger. She took advantage of the cracks in the four person alliance the following week. She won four immunities when she knew that could be in danger. She built an alliance in a swap tribe that helped to run the game.

And yes, he is a hero. I look at all those who serve my country in the military and risk their lives as heros. But that does not entitle them to win Survivor.

Ben and Chrissy both played hard and never gave up. Had Ben won final immunity and found himself sitting next to Ryan and Chrissy, I would be fine with Ben's winning. But Ben didn't win final immunity. He screwed up a letter and couldn't recover. He wasn't the only one, they showed Devon and Mike with spelling mistakes or backwards letters as well. Chrissy stuck with it and won final immunity. Ben got lucky that this season the Producers decided to screw with the final tribal choices.

Ben won because of his back story not his game play. And I guess that is ok, each person comes in with their back story and you know that when you play the game. But to say that Ben hung in there and deserved to win ignores the fact that Chrissy hung in there and never gave up.

5 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

The twist had nothing to do with favoritism for Ben. As you said, he played harder than anyone, and he worked harder than Devon when it came to building a fire. Chrissy had it in her head that by telling Devon about the challenge, he’d practice and win. Didn’t turn out that way.

Chrissy had no choice. She could not choose to not use the advantage, it had to be played. Her only choice was to try and get Ben out through the fire making challenge.  So Chrissy could have blindsided everyone at final tribal or Chrissy could try and give Devon an edge. Devon was a shitty player all game long and managed to muff his opportunity to try and win a million dollars because he decided a nap was a better idea.

[Wings]

45 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

They did that once and never repeated it. Why? Because people bitched loudly that it wasn't fair. I actually liked that one, it was tricky and I thought fair play. Jeff has always announced that the tribes merge or that someone is the first jury member. So that was not said, meaning no merge. Listen to the Host is a good rule for any reality TV show.

This is different. This is a massive change that effects the end of the game without giving people a chance to recover. If they had told people, so people know about it, I would be fine with it. Springing it on people at the very end is simply BS.

I am not convinced they listen to us, the viewers.  It didn't work for the production team is more like it.  Their take on this just happened to be the same as ours. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Wings