Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Starfish35]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

 

At least in other news, the obvious was made obvious tonight. LoT is moving to Mondays.

 

I haven't watched yet and am just catching up on the board.  How was it obvious? Did they put up something after the episode?

Never mind, maybe I should finish reading the thread before posting. *facepalm*

But February 12?  During the Olympics? That can't be right, can it?

Edited December 6, 2017 by Starfish35

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

On Tuesdays after the Flash.

Thank you!

[tennisgurl]

I just dont want to talk about the stupid wedding anymore! I`m so sick of it, and I want to move on damn it! My ships are married, WHY MUST THEY TRY TO RUIN THAT!?!

Edited December 6, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Miss Dee]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

Is it possible to just not watch S1 at all and still be able to follow?

 

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

You can start LOT with season 2 if you want but season 1 had some really good stuff: Mick’s arc, Sara and Snart’s growing friendship and his crush, the visit to the future with Old Man Oliver, and Snart finding the hero within. I personally loved Kendra but I’m in the minority so I won’t try to sell her. 

Put me in as another voting you start with Season 1. It's only 16 episodes; it's much easier to take in binge watching; and there are some real character and relationship developments that you'll miss the resonance of in later episodes if you don't see them from their inception. The stand-alone episodes are pretty good, including an Arrow-centric one early in the season. Just tell yourself during the Vandal Savage/Kendra/Carter stuff that it gets better. So, so, so much better.

Someone on Reddit posted in Legends that the first four episodes of Season 2 were great and could they expect that level for the remaining ones. Everyone responded, " Dude, we're into Season 3 now and can confirm: these four episodes were the worst ones."

But to really grasp the family aspect @tennisgurl so rightfully praises: you need to see who they were from the beginning. Do yourselves a favour and binge it from the pilot. You won't be sorry.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Miss Dee

[quarks]

Scattered thoughts:

1. For me, at least, the wedding present scene was yet another classic example of just how often Supergirl, Flash and Arrow write a scene not from character motivations, but specifically to get to a certain plot point.

The plot point in this case was to have the Thinker plant evidence that would land Barry Allen in jail. In order to get there, the scene had to:

a. Get the knife into Barry's house

b. Get Barry's fingerprints on the knife

c. Somehow or other get Barry and Iris, who know full well that another Big Bad is coming after them, to ignore that a mysterious knife with a handle that will easily accept fingerprints has shown up in their apartment and

d. Ensure that the audience is aware that yes, this knife is in the apartment and Barry's fingerprints are all over it, while also ensuring that Barry and Iris, for whatever reason, miss paying attention not only to the knife, but to two of the people walking directly behind them in a later scene [SERIOUSLY, THOUGH, FLASH/ARROW, FIND MORE LOCATION SHOTS.]

That, not getting revenge on a previous script, or making Iris or Felicity look bad, was the point of the scene: thus, we have a scene that clearly establishes that a) Barry and Iris are opening presents (so they have a reason to open up a box with a knife and not be overly suspicious that hey, someone is sending us a knife!) and b) that Iris is already upset about the gifts so is just going to assume that a single odd knife is just another one of a set of odd gifts (something established later with the toaster joke, which also served to show us that Iris was distracted enough not to realize immediately that hey, stolen toasters, thus distracted enough to miss the knife.)

The end result was that Iris looked petty and everyone got reminded again that Barry thought it would be a great idea to have a sudden wedding right after a funeral and Felicity interrupted the wedding, but that's what happens when you are trying to figure out a way to get someone's fingerprints on a knife for a later scene.

2. My real issue with the episode, however, is something that I haven't seen mentioned here yet: Why were the villains (and, ok, Harry in one scene) more feminist and pro-women than the supposed heroes? We have Iris is getting petty about wedding presents and getting told by Harry that she's a lousy leader, and Caitlin is all filled with self-doubt. And, sigh, Ralph. Meanwhile, the Mechanic - a villain - immediately and correctly challenges Barry on his kinda sexist assumption that she's just a helper, rather than an equal partner (thank you, Mechanic) as Amunet and (as it turned out) The Thinker end up giving Caitlin the pep talk and assurances she needs, with Amunet insisting that Caitlin is amazing on her own merits, thank you very much, as well as discussing her own career choices both as a flight attendant and a villain.

This is an ongoing problem on Flash, to the point where I frequently find myself cheering on the villains - since in some ways, they tend to have better morals.

3. Legends of Tomorrow is on a roll this season - I laughed tonight, a lot. So add me to the list of people annoyed that it's on hiatus until March thanks to Valor.  Especially given how few people are watching Valor anyway!

[Miss Dee]

@quarks, I needed to hear logic so badly. Thank you.

[WindofChange]

20 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Hold on, which guys are we talking about? I know DeVoe is the main evil white guy, but I thought he was sold by Evil British Starbuck to Devoes wife? Was there another guy involved, or were they just Evil Starbucks henchmen? I really dont remember there being three white guys. 

I'm honestly not 100% sure but people who did watch it are saying there were 3 white guys? Like I said I'm just relaying on what I saw from twitter because I was saving to watch this episode tomorrow but hearing what happens I probably won't.

ETA: Apparently Amunet (a white woman) who is a lacky for DeVoe (a white man) had 3 white lackeys in that scene. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by WindofChange

[insomniadreams88]

12 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

But February 12?  During the Olympics? That can't be right, can it?

I was just wondering this. All I saw was that LoT was returning in February, so my first thought was end of the month because of the Olympics.

Now I’m wondering if the CW is actually planning to air new episodes of its shows during the Olympics. If so, no one can say anything about the ratings for those episodes. 

[tennisgurl]

11 minutes ago, WindofChange said:

I'm honestly not 100% sure but people who did watch it are saying there were 3 white guys? Like I said I'm just relaying on what I saw from twitter because I was saving to watch this episode tomorrow but hearing what happens I probably won't.

 

Thinking back on it, yeah maybe there were lackies around. I mean, your point still stands, this is basically semantics, but I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything! Yeah, it was rather tone deaf, and maybe they thought it would be REALLY bad being a black guy (get it guys? slavery! GET IT?!?!) but it makes for pretty uncomfortable viewing.

[ruby24]

That's a good point about the Olympics! I'm really surprised if they're not going to take those weeks off.

[quarks]

6 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

@quarks, I needed to hear logic so badly. Thank you.

This is less logic, and more writer's room experience, where very often you don't start out with point A, but with point D, and you have to figure out how to get to point D.  Very often, this means having a point A that isn't entirely in character, or makes the characters look terrible. If you have time, you can try to rework points A, B and C, but as we've discussed before, these shows are written in a hurry, and so those points often aren't reworked.  See season 2B of Arrow as another classic example. 

[WindofChange]

12 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Thinking back on it, yeah maybe there were lackies around. I mean, your point still stands, this is basically semantics, but I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything! Yeah, it was rather tone deaf, and maybe they thought it would be REALLY bad being a black guy (get it guys? slavery! GET IT?!?!) but it makes for pretty uncomfortable viewing.

I think the worst part of it is that the show didn't take time to discuss just how sick it is that a black guy was sold, his soul was taken away, and was then taken control by a white guy... It just goes on like it’s normal business. 

Yes this man is bad, but the show not showing the social implications of this is beyond reprehensible and quite irresponsible. I know that Flash shouldn't handle such heavy subject matter, and I agree, which is why they should never have gone through with this in the first place. 

I don’t even think that anyone involved in this show sees how wrong this all is which is terrible.

Edited December 6, 2017 by WindofChange

[catrox14]

Yeah, the optics on the buying and selling of Brainstorm played by a black man to use his body as essentially DaVoe's vessel is pretty fucking terrible.

JFC, this is really really bad.

[tennisgurl]

Shallowly, I just hope Brainstorm isn't gone forever. The actor was quite charming, and, yeah, pretty attractive. Stupid floaty chair asshole. 

I honestly feel like a LoT drug dealer. Like, everyone time someone starts complaining about their superhero shows, I just pop up out of the shadows all "Heeeeeeey there, interested in superhero adventures, fun characters, and creative stories that are totally nuts but still make sense within its own universe? Have I got the show for you!" 

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Shallowly, I just hope Brainstorm isn't gone forever. The actor was quite charming, and, yeah, pretty attractive. Stupid floaty chair asshole. 

I honestly feel like a LoT drug dealer. Like, everyone time someone starts complaining about their superhero shows, I just pop up out of the shadows all "Heeeeeeey there, interested in superhero adventures, fun characters, and creative stories that are totally nuts but still make sense within its own universe? Have I got the show for you!" 

I saw him first on SPN! I want him back for that show wherein plays a gay witch (who takes a dark turn).

[quarks]

And one more point on the Flash and sexism issue that I meant to mention above, but forgot:

In this episode, we had Iris tell a bunch of men that Caitlin needed to be rescued since she wouldn't be able to flee on her own, although Barry would be fine. Meanwhile, we had Amunet assuring Caitlin that she - Caitlin - could, indeed, do the impossible. This, of course, after Ralph, Cisco and Wells had all made Caitlin feel awful. 

When the villains are offering the characters more support than than the supposed good guys, Flash, you may have a problem.

[catrox14]

LoT is one crazy episode tonight LOL. 

[WindofChange]

10 minutes ago, quarks said:

And one more point on the Flash and sexism issue that I meant to mention above, but forgot:

In this episode, we had Iris tell a bunch of men that Caitlin needed to be rescued since she wouldn't be able to flee on her own, although Barry would be fine. Meanwhile, we had Amunet assuring Caitlin that she - Caitlin - could, indeed, do the impossible. This, of course, after Ralph, Cisco and Wells had all made Caitlin feel awful. 

When the villains are offering the characters more support than than the supposed good guys, Flash, you may have a problem.

But Iris finally got to express her petty feelings! YEAH GIRL POWER! 

Edited December 6, 2017 by WindofChange

[Simba122504]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Infinitely better. They correct the mistakes of season 1 and basically start enjoying themselves as a show from that point on.

I could not finish S1 when it aired. Everyone, including critics praise the series now. They all say what you just said. TPTB fixed what went wrong with S1. I may finally check out S2 and S3 after the season is done.

[catrox14]

99% sure the fight between the Vikings and the Legends was filmed exactly where SPN filmed their s12 finale. It was distracting LOL.

[calliope1975]

I binged LOT over the weekend after being charmed by the characters in the crossover. It won't replace Arrow as my fave, but I did enjoy it a lot. S1 was still a struggle, and the Legion of Doom wore out their welcome with me towards the end of S2, but overall, I had fun and will catch S3 when it hits Netflix. The characters are fun and I like the changing times they visit. 

And, gasp, I no longer hate Ray. I stand by my opinion that his introduction on Arrow was stalkery and terrible, but I really liked him on LOT. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

And, gasp, I no longer hate Ray. I stand by my opinion that his introduction on Arrow was stalkery and terrible, but I really liked him on LOT. 

Same!

[JamieLynn832002]

So I guess Jax is actually gone, I figured he'd be gone for a couple of episodes and come back. 

http://tvline.com/2017/12/05/legends-of-tomorrow-franz-drameh-leaves-jax-season-3/

 

I'll miss him (and Stein, of course)

[catrox14]

Jeez. I cried about Martin all over again. I didn't see Jax leaving too!

/weeps

[ruby24]

I have a feeling we're close to them announcing Keiynan Lonsdale's joining LOT, especially with the reports of him filming for the show recently.

[InsertWordHere]

Guys, when Martin fired the toy bow and arrow they played the Arrow music mixed with the LoT music! It was amazing. 

Less fun thing I noticed: They had Martin sit in the same medical/barber chair that Stein died in. 

[Mellowyellow]

I haven't had the chance to watch LoT yet but why the hell has Ray got braids??????

Hehe going to be an interesting test to see whether I still think BR is hot with braids. 

[Starfish35]

18 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I haven't had the chance to watch LoT yet but why the hell has Ray got braids??????

Hehe going to be an interesting test to see whether I still think BR is hot with braids. 

It was part of his Viking costume.

I'm really sad about losing Jax.  I thought he'd just be taking a break for a few episodes - not leaving permanently. 

28 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

Guys, when Martin fired the toy bow and arrow they played the Arrow music mixed with the LoT music! It was amazing. 

Oh yeah I noticed that! That was great! :)

[Featherhat]

No, I didn't think Jax was really gone! Why go to all the bother of trying to separate Firestorm if both were leaving. Guess they'll be announcing Wally as a replacement soon. I haven't had a chance to watch the Beebo episode yet but it sounds like pure LOT insanity. 

But seriously, if you're curious about LOT definitely check it out, it's the most insane of the Arrowverse shows and leans into that and the dynamics between the characters are the best of all shows, especially how they can mix and match so easily, pick random storylines out of a hat "Helen of Troy" "In Old Hollywood" and make it work. For any Arrow fans who haven't seen it I'd recommend Star City 2046 which features SA as Old!Oliver and is pretty cool if dystopian and uses other characters were know/have heard about.

Not planning on watching the Flash mostly because of Dibney but ugh, sigh about this wedding thing still going on, it's not really making anyone look good. I guess Arrow might bring it up in the context of Thea, Donn etc being annoyed they weren't there.  

Edited December 6, 2017 by Featherhat

[Midnight Lullaby]

I’m disappointed because I would have expected a line like that from Laurel not from Iris. Pettyness is such not a good look for anyone.

7 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

I think it makes Iris seem petty and superficial tbh.Because actual nazis interrupted her wedding and she and Felicity spent episodes fighting them and protecting each other,you'd think she would be less concerned about wedding etiquette at a ceremony in a park after a funeral that she wouldn't even have if Felicity hadn't suggested Digg.

Thiiiiiis. Another reason the writers should have stayed away from the Nazis theme. They are so superficial.

[Trini]

7 hours ago, Sunshine said:

This is what I don’t understand about the DCTV Universe. I would think they would want people to watch all their shows.  One of many reasons I quit watching Flash was because Joe was forever putting down Oliver and holding up Barry like he was superior.  They bring Felicity over and write her like she’s 12.  Now they have Iris making disparaging remarks about Felicity/Olicity. What’s with the hostility? 

I don't think there's hostility. The Flash hardly mentions Oliver, etc at all.(and vice versa with Arrow)

 

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So why didn't they say something at the time? Like if she thought it was rude now, surely she thought it was rude then, no? Why wouldn't she speak up?

Different writers.
 

6 hours ago, Mary0360 said:

You know what is going to be great though? When Oliver and Felicity don't mention Barry and Iris because they're not petty or bitter. They'll just be happily married and won't think much about Barry and Iris beyond being happy for their friends marriage.

Have they ever been mentioned before on Arrow? I wouldn't expect them to start now.

 

5 hours ago, Angel12d said:

They really did her a disservice tonight. Girl was more bitter towards Felicity than the actual NAZIS who crashed her wedding. Yikes. That is so so bad. 

It hasn't been shown that iris is more bitter at Felicity. Plus, you expect nazis to act badly and ruin things. Not your friend/maid of honor. Not a fair comparison.

 

4 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I still like Iris but this was such a stupid move.  The best thing Iris has done for the past two (three?) seasons was the team-up with Felicity and they just ruined all the goodwill from that.
 

Yeah; same with the ceremony interruption. I don't think it ruins everything though.
 

Quote

I thought the purpose of the crossovers was to bring viewers in to the shows they're not watching.  Anyone who decided to watch The Flash or even give it another chance after seeing the great Iris of the crossover would be seriously turned off right now.

The 'shows they're not watching' would be all the shows not named The Flash. The other shows get a boost from Flash viewers, not the other way around.

[Midnight Lullaby]

5 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Let's be honest, that line came from Flash writers who CLEARLY hated what happened with the double wedding and had no say in the matter. This was their mini-revenge, imo.

I think you are projecting your feelings on this..it’s a job for them..why would they care about a double wedding that was decided a year ago? I find it more likely they thought it was going to be funny but their humor isn’t always so great. Like MG that thought it was hilarious to have Nyssa mention how her father forced her to marry Oliver..

[Primal Slayer]

3 hours ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

So I guess Jax is actually gone, I figured he'd be gone for a couple of episodes and come back. 

http://tvline.com/2017/12/05/legends-of-tomorrow-franz-drameh-leaves-jax-season-3/

 

I'll miss him (and Stein, of course)

Oh wow. That sucks to be let go due to your partner leaving. 

[Featherhat]

18 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Oh wow. That sucks to be let go due to your partner leaving. 

Do we know if that was the reason? In ep 7 they spent a lot of time proving Jax could be a hero without powers (saving LBJ etc) and acknowledging that Sara was the biggest bad ass and had never had any powers and separating Firestorm so that Jax could still be on the show. There must be some other reason he's leaving. 

33 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think you are projecting your feelings on this..it’s a job for them..why would they care about a double wedding that was decided a year ago? I find it more likely they thought it was going to be funny but their humor isn’t always so great. Like MG that thought it was hilarious to have Nyssa mention how her father forced her to marry Oliver..

Yeah from the clip I've seen I think it was supposed to be a "joke" in the same way Dibney reciting women's stats was a "joke". Iris could be annoyed about Felicity interrupting at that moment (though she didn't seem so at the time) but the "chuck it on the return pile" was just rude bridezilla and didn't exactly do her any favours. 

[Primal Slayer]

It can't be a coincidence that both sides of Firestorm leave the series within an episode of each other. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

9 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

 

Yeah from the clip I've seen I think it was supposed to be a "joke" in the same way Dibney reciting women's stats was a "joke". Iris could be annoyed about Felicity interrupting at that moment (though she didn't seem so at the time) but the "chuck it on the return pile" was just rude bridezilla and didn't exactly do her any favours. 

I also hate how it’s always women showed to get upset over superficial things when movies/show write about weddings. At least I’m pretty sure I’m going to get Felicity being chill about everything at the reception..I hope, lol

[apinknightmare]

If Iris’s comment came from an arm of the writer’s room that was angry about the double wedding, I’m glad I’m invested in the show whose response is writing in a reception, LOL. 

[Featherhat]

Just now, Midnight Lullaby said:

I also hate how it’s always women showed to get upset over superficial things when movies/show write about weddings. At least I’m pretty sure I’m going to get Felicity being chill about everything at the reception..I hope, lol

Well going by the crossover Oliver is going to be much more of a groomzilla. "But I want the big wedding and reception and cake and I can't think about Nazis until we talk about this" etc fight. Not to mention he might have proposed on one knee at someone else's rehearsal dinner if not for Ninjas. And Felicity gets the blame for that *rolleyes*

17 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

It can't be a coincidence that both sides of Firestorm leave the series within an episode of each other. 

I agree with that but they spent so much time trying to separate them and prove Jax is more than just Firestorm that it seems weird that he's now gone forever after all that. I wonder if KL is moving over at least semi permanently or just for a couple of eps, because someone said the reason he's disappeared on The Flash is that he was filming a movie. 

[Starfish35]

20 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

I agree with that but they spent so much time trying to separate them and prove Jax is more than just Firestorm that it seems weird that he's now gone forever after all that. I wonder if KL is moving over at least semi permanently or just for a couple of eps, because someone said the reason he's disappeared on The Flash is that he was filming a movie. 

I agree.  I really thought he would be gone for just a few episodes.  I'm not happy about this, and I don't understand why they spent so much time working on a way for him to stay on the ship without Stein, only just to suddenly change course.  I don't like thinking it, but I hope FD wasn't forced out to make room for KL.  :(  But what someone said about KL being a Berlanti favorite has been bugging me ever since finding out that Jax was leaving the show for good.  

Edited December 6, 2017 by Starfish35

[JamieLynn832002]

I really hope they aren't forcing Franz out to make room for Keiynan. I think Wally would fit pretty well but forcing one black man out to make room for another would not be a great look. Especially since the team is down a man with Stein gone so it wouldn't be about cast size.

Edited December 6, 2017 by JamieLynn832002
Add not

[Jediknight]

9 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

I'm disappointed in Iris for the shade she was throwing at olicity today.

I think it's hypocritical of Iris to be bitter about olicity interrupting the end of her impromptu wedding, when she disrupted the end of someone's funeral procession for the same reason just a few episodes ago.  I'd think that out of everyone, she would understand.

And the writers for The Flash, made it abundantly clear that Iris was wrong in that situation.  Barry was even objecting to it.  It wasn't presented as Iris is right, and that it's a heartwarming moment.

6 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I took the comment as the Flash writers trying to make WestAllen relevant. Got to get some interest in the boring comic canon ship somehow and the only way to do that is to bash Olicity to get the conflict going.

The Flash is the highest rated show out of the entire Arrowverse.  They used the West-Allen wedding as the reason for the crossover.  The writers aren't trying to make West-Allen relevant, Flash is the most relevant show.  Arrow's actually the lowest rated out of all the Arrowverse.  The Flash is used to prop up other shows.  The first crossover event started with Barry and Cisco showing up at the end of a Supergirl episode, and like I said, this crossover event was brought about because of West-Allen.

[Mellowyellow]

17 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

The Flash is the highest rated show out of the entire Arrowverse.  They used the West-Allen wedding as the reason for the crossover.  The writers aren't trying to make West-Allen relevant, Flash is the most relevant show.  Arrow's actually the lowest rated out of all the Arrowverse.  The Flash is used to prop up other shows.  The first crossover event started with Barry and Cisco showing up at the end of a Supergirl episode, and like I said, this crossover event was brought about because of West-Allen.

Oh definitely The Flash is the highest rated show in Arrowverse but WestAllen is pretty irrelevant from what I've seen. The Flash can exist without WestAllen and I'm sure it would have just as many viewers. I do not believe that WestAllen have much of a fanbase or people invested in that relationship. In the show yes but not in WestAllen itself. I think that they are trying to sell the WestAllen ship because it is comic canon and in the long term it is probably wise to have a ship on the show that people actually care about, hence the constant hammering of "The Gold Standard" or "We are the Flash."

Edited December 6, 2017 by Mellowyellow

[apinknightmare]

I was just thinking - no wonder the unnamed kid Allen wanted Barry to say “I do” - in the timeline where he doesn’t he gets framed for murder, LOL. 

[lemotomato]

10 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

The Flash is the highest rated show out of the entire Arrowverse. 

Not sure what this has to do with WA not generating any buzz on its own merits. On social media there's more talk about Olicity interrupting WA's ceremony than there was about the original ceremony in the lead up to the crossover. This is the most attention WA has ever gotten, and it's because of manufactured outrage.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I wouldn’t take making the Westallen wedding as the reason the heroes got together a sign the couple is popular and attracts viewers..in every movie they show the set up to not spoil the main plot. Flash has the highest number of casual viewers for sure but I think Arrow creates more debate..and I don’t think I need to specify what people obsess the most about in positive and in negative..just looking at the numbers on this forum the spoilers topic has 39 pages and was opened in December 2014 for the Flash while for Arrow 1677 pages and it was opened on April 2014.

That said I wouldn’t make that line as anything more than thinking writing women as petty is hilarious.

[ComicFan777]

36 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

And the writers for The Flash, made it abundantly clear that Iris was wrong in that situation.  Barry was even objecting to it.  It wasn't presented as Iris is right, and that it's a heartwarming moment.

Right or wrong, I would have expected Iris to understand since she went through the exact same thing - maybe a little empathy.

Edited December 6, 2017 by ComicFan777

[JJ928]

I haven't watch Flash yet, but I'll probably side-eye her comment & move on. I don't think her comment erases the friendship between her and Felicity, and I'm not gonna hate on her. I love Iris & Felicity, they've both done/said stuff I haven't liked, but so have every other character. Flash in general likes to shade Arrow a lot, it comes off kinda insecure imo, and I wonder if that'll change now that AK is gone.

 

Legends was so much fun last night! I still can't believe that I, a LOT hater last year, has been enjoying it as much as I am. Really sad to see Jax leave, I hope they bring him back in season 4, and he's found a way to be Firestorm. I'm not a big Wally fan, at least from the way Flash handled him. I mean, he's better than Barry, but then anyone is better than Barry imo. I hope LOT gives Wally some quality stuff.

Did anyone notice how all of a sudden when Ava & Sara are willingly working together, she has her hair &makeup done? Ugh, I am not here for those two being a thing, I find Ava obnoxious. I know I am alone on my Ray/Sara ship, but so far they're still what I'd like to see lol. I think Sara needs to be with someone who's just all around good. But looks like they're gonna go the Ava/Sara route. I'm actually really excited to see Constantine again, I miss that show so much.

[quarks]

16 minutes ago, JJ928 said:

I know I am alone on my Ray/Sara ship, but so far they're still what I'd like to see lol. 

I don't think you're alone, and Legends of Tomorrow has occasionally thrown vaguely shippy moments at the two, so it's not out of left field, either. But I also think that if - and I think it's a big if - Legends of Tomorrow does go there, it won't be for at least a couple more seasons - for one, to give a little more space between that and "our respective exes just got married to each other," and two, because Ray/Sara would presumably be an endgame pairing. Legends of Tomorrow is only in its third season so far. 

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

That said I wouldn’t make that line as anything more than thinking writing women as petty is hilarious.

100% agree. I can admit the writing on The Flash is the worst for the Arrowverse. Hell, Supergirl writers even write better material than anything The Flash writers do. The Flash may be able to write humourous situations sometimes, but they often take it overboard, and then they completely write their female characters as weak, petty, annoying, or worse, they don't write for them at all. Maybe that what makes me fiercely protective of Iris West. Her character has gotten the worst writing because they often went the latter route in not writing for her at all, and her characterization has been all over the place. 

And apparently, with this most recent Flash episode being written by the ones who also wrote Luck Be A Lady, an episode where Iris was also being petty and a little bitchy (and also the episode that made Jesse look cold and selfish by breaking up via text/cube). I think this is a case where the writing duo clearly wanted Iris as a petty bridezilla for one scene, and I do think it was for humour. I say for this particular writing duo, because the other writer, Judalina, has done some of the better season 3 episodes without her writing partner (she cowrote Magenta and Cause and Effect, both episodes I enjoyed a bit). I think it's the new Flash writer, Sam Chalsen, that might be the culprit to these particular scenes. 

[EmilyBettFan]

3 hours ago, Jediknight said:

And the writers for The Flash, made it abundantly clear that Iris was wrong in that situation.  Barry was even objecting to it.  It wasn't presented as Iris is right, and that it's a heartwarming moment.

The Flash is the highest rated show out of the entire Arrowverse.  They used the West-Allen wedding as the reason for the crossover.  The writers aren't trying to make West-Allen relevant, Flash is the most relevant show.  Arrow's actually the lowest rated out of all the Arrowverse.  The Flash is used to prop up other shows.  The first crossover event started with Barry and Cisco showing up at the end of a Supergirl episode, and like I said, this crossover event was brought about because of West-Allen.

It's losing demo/viewers faster than Arrow did at the time. Arrow is on season 6 and barely has any promo. It will in no time be low in ratings.