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Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

ArctisTor

By ArctisTor
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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

1 minute ago, SleepDeprived said:

Honestly, though, HOW did flashpoint manage to change the winning sperm in Diggle's arsenal that penetrated Lyla's ovum? I'm so confused. Like, the relationships that got affected because of FP, okay, fine, I can see how that might get altered. But that FP would have a significant impact on Diggle and Lyla having sex that resulted in Connor instead of Sara is just super weird.

They didn't just change Sara into a boy - they changed Sara into an OLDER boy - he is not the same age she was. 

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apinknightmare
apinknightmare

I mean, I don't want her in a suit so it's not the "never" in this instance that bothers me, but Marc saying that Felicity specifically would make the notion of superheroics "silly." Why? In this show

Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

And then someone tells him that what he did was okay because of reasons, or that he can't keep feeling guilty, he just has to move forward. Like, no, just...go ahead and feel really guilty for awhile?

SleepDeprived
SleepDeprived

Hey, now... Listen. The practice of proper etiquette during an impromptu wedding officiated by your best friend in a park, right after the funeral of a beloved colleague, is of the utmost importance,

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

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21 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

To be a little fair to this idiot storyline, she's still alive somewhere, just not in the timeline we get to see. Still utter garbage, however. 

That's not the case.  Barry only exists in this one timeline.  He created three timelines.  Only the final one still exists.  Sara is not alive at least on Earth 1.  In some other universe maybe, but doubt we'll ever see that. 

6 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

They didn't just change Sara into a boy - they changed Sara into an OLDER boy - he is not the same age she was. 

I'm not sure he's actually supposed to be older.  I think he probably suffers from the same aging issue as soap opera babies. 

 

Losing Baby Sara made me cry. Hot, frustrated, angry tears. Why?  Because erasing Sara made me feel small and silly and stupid.  It’s not because of the fond attachment I have to the character, it’s that the show made me think they thought this kid was cool too. 

She’s the kid that was supposed to grow up around a band of superheroes.  She’s the one that faced off with the LoA as an infant and eluded Damian Dahrk’s minions while strapped to the back of her dad on his motorcycle as bullets rained all around while her MOM stayed back to face capture.  Sara was destined to grow up to be this kickass woman. With Lyla and Diggle as her parents, and Felicity and Oliver and Thea as her extended family, how could it be helped?  And it was such a great feeling to know that the makers of Arrow, a gritty, punch happy, fight obsessed show was investing in this little female character and giving us this vision of who she could grow up to be. 

And now I know they think she was nothing, worse than nothing, not good enough.  Not when there could be a boy instead.  And so they erased her like she was a huge mistake and I’m sure they are even now congratulating themselves on their cleverness.  “Phew, fixed that.”

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

3 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

That's not the case.  Barry only exists in this one timeline.  He created three timelines.  Only the final one still exists.  Sara is not alive at least on Earth 1.  In some other universe maybe, but doubt we'll ever see that. 

Okay, thanks for the correction. I started dozing off when he closed the door so he could write on it. 

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catrox14

catrox14

Fuck off, Barry Allen. I do not like you. You ruin everything.

I am so angry with all of the Flarrowverse. A girl means fuck all in the Flarrowverse. Clearly. How can they not understand why this is disgusting and gross and sexist?  How dare they erase Diggle's life as it was just to make sure there is a Green Arrow 2.0. Godsdammit, I'm thisclose to throwing in the towel on Arrow now. I never thought I'd say it. Disgraceful, Flarrowverse.

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Carrie Ann

Carrie Ann

Guys, this made me laugh really hard.

I've never hated Barry more, and that is saying something. So long, Baby Sara. Sorry you were erased so the writers could feel clever for a bit.

On the bright side, at least I have CSI Draco to root for this season. I am hoping he plays a Spike role and drives a wedge between Team Flash and Barry.

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thegirlsleuth

thegirlsleuth

(edited)

So a little girl on Arrow is erased because of actions on the Flash so that Legends of Tomorrow has the storyline they want?  

Offensiveness or erasing a little girl because she's not a mask aside, the writers are just not smart enough to pull off this story.

Edited by thegirlsleuth
typo!
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calliope1975

calliope1975

5 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

So a little girl on Arrow is erased because of actions on the Flash so that Legends of Tomorrow has the storyline they want?  

Offensiveness or erasing a little girl because she's not a mask aside, the writers are just not smart enough to pull off this story.

Would the LOT story even happen? Wasn't the whole point that the LOT team was going to stop VS and prevent the destruction of Star(ling) City? 

I reject this new timeline. 

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Angel12d

Angel12d

They didn't just erase a little girl, they erased a WOC. It's just so messed up on all levels. 

I want a crossover where they finally realize Barry is the real villain and they destroy him. Would watch. 

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looptab

looptab

Well, kudos to those of you who called this months ago. I hoped until the last minute that there would be an added child, rather than an erased child. Why, why, why erase Baby Sara? They could have had their stupid Connor anyway. Ugh. Will the knowledge that he basically erased a human being from existence haunt him? I guess not.

Draco was the best. I am disappointed that Cisco was coming around by the end of the episode already. 

Fucking Barry.

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Karlophe

Karlophe

6 hours ago, EmeraldArcher said:

I'm just so offended on behalf of women.  Baby Sara was erased, so she won't even be mourned.

I feel the same. This was really a gut punch. And as evidenced by the heartbreak in this thread, just because we saw it coming doesn't make it hurt any less. All I could remember at the reveal was last year's Legends/Arrow flash forward, and people's wishes and hopes that Sara Lance would run into her namesake, or even find out that she had one; that her friends who loved her had named their own child after her. Now she'll never know. And we were all robbed of Baby Sara's future.

I've generally been somewhat more forgiving of Barry's actions, but he deserves a long, hard sit at the end of the Airplane Line for this one. Him, and the writers who approved this mess. It's just awful.

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tarotx

tarotx

(edited)

I knew this would happen. Stuff like this happens on time travel shows. Arrow isn't a time travel show but whatever, right?  Baby Sara's just a minor character and it won't affect Arrow as a show, right? I get it, Illustrate Flashpoint and put LOT's Connor on the table. Who cares that Baby Sara was and was going to be awesome. She had Lyla as a mom and Diggle as a dad. And a crew of awesome Aunties and uncles. They probably won't even mention it on Arrow except in the previously on Arrow and the Flash segment :(  Giving Lyla and Diggle twins would have Illustrated Flashpoint, Put john "Connor Hawke" Diggle in the mix and wouldn't have taken anything away - especially not Awesome baby Sara.  Adorable, Brave and Female without a comic destiny :(  I guess that taking away is the point. They wanted us to feel loss. But that isn't fair to us. Nothing major happened on Flash. Oh right, Cisco and Caitlin are on their way to being the awesome powered characters fans have wanted. It's only Arrow fans feeling the loss :( 

Edited by tarotx
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bijoux

bijoux

So how much does Felicity know about Flashpoint and its consequences? Has Barry actually told her about Sara Diggle and that's when she gave him the pudding line or whatever or was only the audience made aware of this particular change? Also, did Barry also somehow manage to erase Cisco's brother from existence or did that guy simply die?

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tarotx

tarotx

5 minutes ago, bijoux said:

So how much does Felicity know about Flashpoint and its consequences? Has Barry actually told her about Sara Diggle and that's when she gave him the pudding line or whatever or was only the audience made aware of this particular change? Also, did Barry also somehow manage to erase Cisco's brother from existence or did that guy simply die?

 

Felicity knows about Baby Sara/John and that little big changes have happened. She did repeat the Pudding line then but she was angry/annoyed though mostly at him not telling his other friends about Flashpoint. 

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bijoux

bijoux

I'd just like to know which writers' room came up with this brilliant idea. I am not opposed to Dig having a son, I liked the conceit that his son took up Oliver's mantle and I like the actor who played him. All that could have been accomplished by either simply adding him on as Sara's sibling through the consequences of Flashpoint or, you know, Lyla and Dig conceiving him after he got back stateside from his tour and Sara getting a younger brother. The LoT episode in question took place 30 years in the possible future. There is no reason why that Connor couldn't be in his late 20s.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

I still don't know why the Diggle's couldn't have another kid. Going from 1 kid to 2 kids is a big difference as well. Having 2 young kids to worry about could've been a storyline for Diggle and Lyla. 

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quarks

quarks

I think the problem was that once Flash decided that Flashpoint would have some lingering consequences - Cisco's brother, Caitlin's powers - someone decided that, as I was arguing back in May, Arrow had to have consequences as well, but consequences that a) could be summed up in a single "Previously on Arrow and Flash...." moment and b) wouldn't deeply impact the show's plot. Sara Diggle hasn't been on that many episodes; for the most part, her role was "cute baby,"; and this way, Diggle and Lyla still have a kid, so haven't been impacted that much, and the show can/presumably will argue that a son brings as much joy as a daughter.  This more impacts the audience.

Regarding the kid's age - my guess is, based on the issues they had getting baby actresses for Baby Sara, that Arrow just decided to go with a slightly older boy who would be a bit easier to cast/direct than a toddler. I'm not sure if they also intended to suggest that in the changed timeline, Diggle and Lyla's kid was actually born earlier, potentially changing other elements (like when Oliver first kissed Felicity).

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

17 minutes ago, bijoux said:

The LoT episode in question took place 30 years in the possible future. There is no reason why that Connor couldn't be in his late 20s.

I hadn't thought about that, but if they upped John Jr's age to 5 or 6 -- then the "Connor" we saw in 2046 has 35-36? LOL NO.

Someone please hire a mathematician for the Berlantiverse. We can crowdfund his salary.

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SonofaBiscuit

SonofaBiscuit

(edited)

Look, I don't watch Arrow anymore, but I find it really fucking infuriating that Barry just erased the last four years of a show that he isn't even part of.  Maybe most events post new timeline are the same as they were before...or maybe not.  Who knows?  I guess Oliver and Felicity's first kiss didn't really happen at the hospital as witnessed because Sara was never born there (never born at all, in fact...hey thanks, Barry!).  This shared universe sure is totes awesome.   /sarcasm    

Edited by SonofaBiscuit
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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

(edited)

You know, the more I think about it, the more annoyed I am about the choices they made on how Flashpoint was going to affect the shows.  How is it that on the actual show that Flashpoint happens, the only real change is the addition of a new CSI guy?  I mean, Iris being mad at her dad is all done.  Cisco's brother died might have died in a car accident one way or another - that wasn't on Barry.  Even Caitlin with her Killer Frost powers could have easily been revealed as something that recently started happening and we all know they were going to go there with the powers eventually anyway, so it's not such a shock. 

All Flashpoint did was bring in the new big bad on that show (and thank goodness it's not another speedster). And though it's a long shot, technically Dante could still show up since he at least existed.  But on Arrow, there is no bringing back Sara cause she never did.   And I think the loss of Dante is less impactful.  It's a lot easier to never mention a slightly estranged brother than a main character's kid so yeah, I really think despite a seemingly long list of changes on the Flash, really the biggest one on the  audience IMO is losing baby Sara on Arrow.  And the unfairness of it is really eating at me.   

Edited by BkWurm1
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quarks

quarks

Worth bearing in mind that, like the hurricane last week, outside factors may have been involved here. Last night was the finals for the Cubs/Giants, and also Yom Kippur. I don't know how many Flash viewers are Cubs fans, but it's possible that some of the Flash audience was observing the holiday. 

That said, wow. If that holds, that's a drop from 3.17 million viewers last week to 2.7 this week - a drop of a half million viewers, and the first time Flash has dropped below 3 million. The show's usually been well over 3 million, edging close to that only once. 

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

4 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Flash once had 2.997 mil viewers last year. It dropped almost 400k viewers from last week.

Flashpoint was a disappointment I think I a lot of levels.  I can see people tuning out. 

I have a hard time believing Arrow could be worse than it was last week in the ratings, but then again, Dec Mayo

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EmeraldArcher

EmeraldArcher

57 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

You know, the more I think about it, the more annoyed I am about the choices they made on how Flashpoint was going to affect the shows. 

I think that erasing Baby Sara is linked to the miscast of Samantha in S2.  She was supposed to be Connor Hawke's mother, but there was an outcry because they whitewashed a character who was a woman of color in the comics.  That outcry was justified, but it also led to William being Oliver's son, not Connor.  So, even though Connor was Oliver's son in the comics, they made him Diggle's son in the show because he fit the race of the comic character.

Baby Sara is a casualty of the lack of diversity that's systemic in this show.  

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Chaser

Chaser

They will probably adjust up but I doubt it will be big gain.

If this holds and the ratings keep falling, it wouldn't surprise me. If you aren't aware of the Super-Cool-Epic-Game-Changing-Flashpoint, the whole storyline makes no sense. It's Barry pulling the same dumb shit over and over again. It's making Central City super depressing in the process.

Totally thinking a series low is coming for Arrow too. Arrow has had supernaturally consistent ratings but they haven't been promoting what has given them those ratings (the characters established).

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

31 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

I think that erasing Baby Sara is linked to the miscast of Samantha in S2.  She was supposed to be Connor Hawke's mother, but there was an outcry because they whitewashed a character who was a woman of color in the comics.  That outcry was justified, but it also led to William being Oliver's son, not Connor.  So, even though Connor was Oliver's son in the comics, they made him Diggle's son in the show because he fit the race of the comic character.

Baby Sara is a casualty of the lack of diversity that's systemic in this show.  

But baby Sara was part of the solution.  :(

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

If I had to guess at a reason for the drop - since we'll never really know - I'd say it was probably some combination of time travel getting increasingly complicated and useless for the general audience, Barry continuing to make the same mistakes over and over and over again, and that the writers didn't make a very strong case for Barry messing with the timeline (again). 

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Starfish35

Starfish35

(edited)

Wow.  Series low for Flash if that doesn't adjust up.  I guess Flashpoint isn't going over like they'd hoped?  But yeah, the Arrow ratings tomorrow probably aren't going to be pretty either.  And I'm just bracing for the LoT ratings. :(

Edited by Starfish35
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