Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Mary0360]

26 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

So... any predictions on which of Barry's loved ones is Eobard going to kill next?

His hinted at future daughter? Dramatic choice that doesn't effect the main cast. Would they go that dark?

Someones going to die though. Eobard basically saying "I wonder which one of your loved ones I kill next" basically = someone will die.

[Starfish35]

Maybe Joe?  There was some hint that Barry's and Iris's marriage wouldn't exactly be smooth sailing from here on out, and if Eobard killed Joe after Barry let him go....that might be a lot for Iris to forgive.

[Primal Slayer]

Oliver let Malcolm walk for 3 years even though he knew he killed people, so Barry letting Thawne go wasn't that big of a surprise.

[Delphi]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

So he killed Felicity's boyfriend then married her?  ?  Well, at least the Arrow team is very forgiving. Hi Slade

They really should have written something better for getting rid of Thawne (who shouldn't exist at all now!), but yeah, I'm not going to complain about Barry NOT having serial killer tendencies.

This board has already called out Oliver on his moving on from Slade killing Moira.  There are pages and pages of us calling it ridiculous.   And in show Thea has called him on it. 

Though,  I have to say this,  killing one person doesn't give you serial killer tendencies.   The death penalty exists for a reason.   Barry doesn't have serial killer tendencies,  Thawne does.   He traveled decades into the past to kill someone's mother in front of them.  Has killed numerous others.   Tried to kill Felicity on Tuesday.   And if I'm being honest,  I consider Barry technically responsible for killing Sara Diggle and Cisco's brother.   And for trying to kill Iris last year. 

Oliver and Sara might be murderers but at least they are honest about it and don't treat it as an afterthought. 

[Velocity23]

Arrowverse cast were celebrating Greg Berlantis wedding on Saturday night in Malibu. 

[Mary0360]

1 hour ago, Delphi said:

This board has already called out Oliver on his moving on from Slade killing Moira.  There are pages and pages of us calling it ridiculous.   And in show Thea has called him on it. 

Though,  I have to say this,  killing one person doesn't give you serial killer tendencies.   The death penalty exists for a reason.   Barry doesn't have serial killer tendencies,  Thawne does.   He traveled decades into the past to kill someone's mother in front of them.  Has killed numerous others.   Tried to kill Felicity on Tuesday.   And if I'm being honest,  I consider Barry technically responsible for killing Sara Diggle and Cisco's brother.   And for trying to kill Iris last year. 

Oliver and Sara might be murderers but at least they are honest about it and don't treat it as an afterthought. 

Oliver also had a whole five year arch that deals with the consequences and choices he's made as a Vigilante and directly confronting whether he is a killer or not. As recent as last season the storyline was Oliver figuring out whether he kills because he likes it and is compelled to or whether he does it out of necessity and to eliminate dangerous people.

Barry's actions more often then not get hand waved away and swept under the rug. Barry rarely gets to question his choices or the consequences of his choices in any kind of meaningful way, because he's surrounded by people who mostly enable him with over compensating indulgent pep talks of the do no wrong variety. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Mary0360

[Aeryn13]

I don`t have a problem with Barry killing so much - well, I do when he is being supremely stupid about it like letting the villain go just like that - as with the show`s message that this somehow makes Barry so much better and superior as a hero. Buffy once did the same thing with the "she is a true hero" so Giles killed the bad guy. Are you kidding me, the hero`s precious morals are not more important than saving lifes. I don`t expect them to gleefully murder their way through their opponents when I do expect making the hard decision when it is warranted. And the hero can`t be spared from it by always conveniently either having other people do the dirty work or the villain slips on a banana peel and breaks their neck tropes. 

Last Season was even more stupid. Gorilla Grodd would have been dealt with by another gorilla but nope, Barry had to step in. And now the Legends will have to mop up the mess. Thanks for nothing.

[ruby24]

1 hour ago, Velocity23 said:

Arrowverse cast were celebrating Greg Berlantis wedding on Saturday night in Malibu. 

Who all was there?

[Velocity23]

So far the actors who definetely attended are:

SA, EBR (flew in from the con in San Jose), CH, GG, DP. 

[Primal Slayer]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Buffy once did the same thing with the "she is a true hero" so Giles killed the bad guy. Are you kidding me, the hero`s precious morals are not more important than saving lifes. I don`t expect them to gleefully murder their way through their opponents when I do expect making the hard decision when it is warranted. 

Buffy has killed and been willing to kill depending on circumstance but the whole point of Giles killing Ben is that he was essentially an innocent but it was the only way to truly stop Glory and Buffy wasn't going to take his life because she doesn' kill in cold blood. Not to mention killing can be very traumatizing to people, no matter the situation.

[BunsenBurner]

2 hours ago, Mary0360 said:

Oliver also had a whole five year arch that deals with the consequences and choices he's made as a Vigilante and directly confronting whether he is a killer or not. As recent as last season the storyline was Oliver figuring out whether he kills because he likes it and is compelled to or whether he does it out of necessity and to eliminate dangerous people.

Barry's actions more often then not get hand waved away and swept under the rug. Barry rarely gets to question his choices or the consequences of his choices in any kind of meaningful way, because he's surrounded by people who mostly enable him with over compensating indulgent pep talks of the do no wrong variety. 

This is why my nieces and nephews aren’t allowed to watch the Flash and one of the reasons why I quit. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Ben is that he was essentially an innocent but it was the only way to truly stop Glory

I understood the conundrum but what Giles did is what I would expect from the hero in that situation, making the hard decision. The "she doesn`t do it because she is a true hero" message was the same one they are sending with Barry letting Thawne go. And I resent that message wholeheartedly.  

[quarks]

I think for me, the problem with the Barry releasing Thawne situation is that Arrow just had a scene where Quentin and Dinah blame themselves for the deaths caused by the murderers they released - Black Siren and Vigliante respectively.  And in their cases, they had personal ties to both, or, well, in Quentin's case, felt he had personal ties to both.  So to follow that up with a scene where Barry let Eobard go, without any dialogue (yet) about blaming himself for any future deaths that Eobard caused....well. 

I'll give Eobard this much: he helped train Barry in the first season and then left Barry with seemingly enough money to pay Cisco and Caitlin and I guess now Iris and Harry salaries from Star Labs for years. But he's also spent three of the last four seasons of Flash/Legends of Tomorrow killing/trying to kill people, and he spent the crossover event helping Nazis. So, you know, a stint in prison wouldn't be out of line here.

Having said all that, my biggest problem with that entire scene honestly had very little to do with Barry, and a lot to do with the question I was asking during the entire crossover event: Look, I know these shows are increasingly casual with what the word "dead" means, but still, Reverse-Flash has now been killed off on two separate shows, so what was he doing zipping around in the crossovers in the first place?

[Primal Slayer]

27 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I understood the conundrum but what Giles did is what I would expect from the hero in that situation, making the hard decision. The "she doesn`t do it because she is a true hero" message was the same one they are sending with Barry letting Thawne go. And I resent that message wholeheartedly.  

Barry and Buffy situations were different. She was willing to take on the burden of letting Glory live by not killing Ben, that is a hero. Sacrificing an innocent just to get to your target isn't what a hero does. 

Barry just isn't a killer, it isn't in his nature at all. It was a weak scene but such a usual trope. 

[tv echo]

One additional comment about Thor: Ragnorak...

When I heard Thor's battle music in one scene (or two scenes), I thought, wait, isn't that Wonder Woman's battle music? (Youtube video by Panda Kao.)

However, before you think that Thor copied Wonder Woman. I did a little research.  As it turns out, both movies used music that sounds just like Led Zeppelin’s “Immigrant Song." (Youtube video by Led Zeppelin - Topic.)

From what I've read online, the DC team did not get permission to use that song and did not give credit to Led Zeppelin for using that music. Instead, they consider their Wonder Woman theme music to be their own original composition. (You may recall that there was also no credit given to Arrowverse composer Blake Neely for using part of his TV Flash theme music in Justice League, in their movie Flash action scene.)
http://www.tvovermind.com/music/no-one-else-talking-wonder-woman-theme-immigrant-song-disguise  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5vQz4Xz6q8

On the other hand, the Marvel team did get permission to use Led Zeppelin's "Immigrant Song" and gave a credit...

It took the entire making of 'Thor: Ragnarok' for Marvel to finally nab the rights to a Led Zeppelin song
Nov. 6, 2017 by Jason Guerrasio
http://uk.businessinsider.com/led-zeppelin-immigrant-song-in-thor-ragnarok-2017-11?r=US&IR=T

Quote

"I remember Kevin being really excited about the song right from the early meetings," Waititi told Business Insider of Marvel Studios' president, Kevin Feige. "He was like, 'We should explore that song because it could be perfect for the film.'"

With the song's relentless guitar riff, squealing opening by lead singer Robert Plant, and mentions of Norse mythology in the lyrics, the track seemed perfect for the Thor franchise. But there was just one problem: Led Zeppelin is historically difficult when it comes to allowing songs in movies.

Waititi doesn't have firsthand knowledge of anything insane taking place to get "Immigrant Song" for "Ragnarok," as the movie's music supervisor Dave Jordan did most of the heavy lifting. But he knows it did basically take all of production for the filmmakers to get the OK to use the song.

The breakthrough finally happened early this year when Marvel sent the band the teaser trailer, which featured the song, before it went live in April.

Edited December 3, 2017 by tv echo

[Aeryn13]

Quote

She was willing to take on the burden of letting Glory live by not killing Ben, that is a hero. 

Agree to very much disagree there. Because the real burden is taken on by other people, namely those killed when you let your bad guy walk like that. That`s what I have a big problem with. If the hero was the only one who had to pay the piper later on, then fine.  

[ruby24]

3 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

So far the actors who definetely attended are:

SA, EBR (flew in from the con in San Jose), CH, GG, DP. 

How do we know?

[Velocity23]

6 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

How do we know?

SA posted a tweet of going to Malibu. Also he posted an instagram stories that indicated he and Emily are on a flight together. I am guessing they had a private jet. Colton made a comment about crying and there were pics from instagram stories of GG and DP all dress up. So i am guessing they went to the wedding as well.

 

[Chaser]

SA also told a fan about the wedding yesterday.

That sounds like a recipe for a hangover. 

[Trini]

Oh, I thought Berlanti was already married.

---------------

5 hours ago, Mary0360 said:

Barry's actions more often then not get hand waved away and swept under the rug. Barry rarely gets to question his choices or the consequences of his choices in any kind of meaningful way, because he's surrounded by people who mostly enable him with over compensating indulgent pep talks of the do no wrong variety. 

That hasn't been true since season 2.

 

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Last Season was even more stupid. Gorilla Grodd would have been dealt with by another gorilla but nope, Barry had to step in. And now the Legends will have to mop up the mess. Thanks for nothing.

Grodd was locked up in ARGUS. Thank the Legends for screwing up time itself.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Thank the Legends for screwing up time itself.

Well, they had to save reality, though. And that put all the other CW heroes back in play. In the Legion of Doom`s world, they were on Damien`s wall of murderdom. So I give them leeway whereas I was stark-raving mad when Barry butted in the Grodd situation last Season. Like, he didn`t even had to get his hands dirty himself. Aaaargh. 

I like all the leads on all the DC-CW shows but they can drive me mad on occasion. And this is Barry`s thing in doing so. Right now Sara is actually least likely to drive me mad.

[tennisgurl]

I can get Barry not killing Eobard in that kind of way. Thats not really who Barry is. However, he could have at least TRIED to lock him up or do something to incapacitate him. Yeah it never seems to stick and he could probably get out, but at least make an attempt! This asshole will just keep on killing people now! There has to be somewhere they can stick him where he cant get out. 

I mean, how much damage has this guy done? How many people has he killed? Hell, he helped to create an evil Alternate Dimension where all the heroes died not that long ago, and alternate universe versions of the Legends all died to take his ass out! This is so going to backfire. 

Of course, the whole "do heroes kill people?" thing is a pretty common discussion in superhero works. In general, my thoughts are that, heroes should avoid killing when they can, but as a last possible option, especially with someone who is incredibly powerful and dangerous, and cant be contained, then killing is the best option. Maybe its morally grey, and it certainly shouldn't be the first idea thrown out, but sometimes, it does need doing. And I do like that the heroes in this franchise do screw up or make bad choices, especially when they have to deal with the consequences. Thats one of the reasons why I like the superhero genre. I enjoy the idea that these people who have amazing powers and abilities and tech and training are also just people who have flaws and make bad calls and are human, but still at least try to do the right thing. Its what makes the whole thing interesting to me. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Velocity23]

EBR at Berlantis wedding

[Chaser]

I don't understand that dress.

[bijoux]

What do you mean? It looks like a fairly normal striped sparkly dress to me.

[Chaser]

lol it looks like the 70s and 80s had a love child. 

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

EBR at Berlantis wedding

I don't care for the colors at all.

[tennisgurl]

I think its cute. I actually have a dress kind of like it...

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I think its cute. I actually have a dress kind of like it...

The dress is okay, just not a fan of those colors on her. But then I'm biased against yellow for blondes, or maybe it just looks terrible on me LOL.

It might look better in person too

[statsgirl]

12 hours ago, Mary0360 said:

Someones going to die though. Eobard basically saying "I wonder which one of your loved ones I kill next" basically = someone will die.

He'll go back in time and reverse it.  Unless he's learned that lesson.  Maybe he'll go back in time and just not let Thawne go.

Since Thawne actually voiced "I wonder which one of your loved ones I kill next". I wonder if the show will ever address Barry letting him go and the consequences of it, or will everyone just feel sorry for Barry's terrible dilemma and the action he had to take.

I also wonder that with a number of reviewers of the crossover talking about how great it was that Iris and Felicity got to do action scenes, will the Flash EPs finally let Iris have a better role now?

[Sakura12]

If Barry wasn't going to kill Thawne then he needed to knock him out and lock him up. Even if he escaped later at least he tried to something to stop him. Just letting him go like that will make whatever damage he causes or people he kills be on Barry. I also thought Speed Force Barry is supposed to now actually be the fastest man alive so he should've been able to take him. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Sakura12

[bijoux]

You know what I just got? While they were deflecting and facing off Nazis in Star Labs Felicity and Iris were wearing green and red respectively.

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

He'll go back in time and reverse it.  Unless he's learned that lesson.  Maybe he'll go back in time and just not let Thawne go.

No, he won't.  He HAS learned that lesson.

[Delphi]

1 minute ago, legaleagle53 said:

No, he won't.  He HAS learned that lesson.

Well,  after four years something is bound to sink in. 

[insomniadreams88]

7 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

No, he won't.  He HAS learned that lesson.

For now, at least. I could see that changing depending on how many more seasons there are. 

[Starfish35]

I kind of hate to say it, but one of the things the crossover made me realize is that I'm probably not ever going to start watching the other three shows again.   I love and miss most of the characters and relationships from the other shows, and I'd be happy to see most of them* drop by the Waverider for a visit, but at the end of it all, I was just wanting to get back to my Legends team and their crazy adventures through time and their little Waverider family.

I feel bad about that though.  Kind of guilty I suppose.  I know that's weird, but...yeah.  :(

*less any version of Laurel Lance - sorry.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Starfish35
screwed up formatting

[Midnight Lullaby]

19 hours ago, Trini said:

So he killed Felicity's boyfriend then married her?  ?  Well, at least the Arrow team is very forgiving. Hi, Slade!
 

He was set up by Prometheus who kidnapped Felicity’s boyfriend, put him in his costume and used him essentially as a human shield..Oliver thought he was shooting Prometheus. One of the very rare situations where he wasn’t to blame..

[johntfs]

16 hours ago, Mary0360 said:

I feel like if you help Nazis, support Nazis and associate with Nazis you're a nazi. It's like the saying goes if it quacks like a duck it's a duck. Barry's total non reaction or action to stop Eobard and basically telling him to walk away was pretty bad considering everything Eobard stood for and intended to do and the fact that Eobard as he was walking away basically told Barry he would kill more people. 

In that moment Eobard wanted Barry to kill him.  Whatever else we might think of Barry, it's probably a bad idea to give Eobard Thawne what he wants.

[quarks]

11 hours ago, Trini said:

 

That hasn't been true since season 2.

 

(blinks)

Barry not facing the consequences of his actions was a significant plot and source of drama in season three.  It was even called out in the script by Cisco, who pointed out - correctly - that he had lost his brother thanks to Barry's choices, while Barry still had Star Labs and got the girl.  

And that theme - of Barry either not getting any consequences for his actions, or getting lesser consequences than other characters, has continued in season four. This season: 

1. Barry returned from the Time Thingy in the last season finale feeling, in his own words, not just unharmed, but happier and better, having finally gained a sense of peace. So, after all of this "DON'T CHANGE THE TIMELINE" stuff, the Time Thingy ends up rewarding Barry for this by giving him happiness and inner self peace. Got it. Meanwhile -

2. The Time Thingy in the last season finale that brought him that inner self peace caused significant property damage, at the very least, and we saw several innocent extras get injured.

3. It's canon that Iris was (understandably) devastated and hurt during those months. Barry was not.

4. It's canon that Barry's failure to listen to Iris led to a guest star character nearly getting killed and getting his car destroyed. Barry....got a bit of a lecture from Iris about tht. I'm assuming that the guest star character has car insurance of some sort, but, still, he went through a traumatic experience and presumably had to spend time car shopping and paying for Uber for a bit.  Again, more consequences than what Barry dealt with in that episode.

5. I hate Ralph. Really hate Ralph. As far as I'm concerned he's leapt past that DJ from Arrow season 3 as Worst Ever Character in the Arrowverse.  (Yes, much, much worse than Laurel.) That conceded, it's also a matter of show canon that Ralph lost his job and suffered financially after faking evidence; Barry, meanwhile, after directly disobeying a direct order from his police superior - on a matter that, again, in script, meant that the Central City police force was facing a potential multimillion lawsuit - only got a two week suspension. And then, his boss showed up for his wedding the following week.  So, Ralph breaks the law/police policy and suffers for years; Barry gets told at the end of the episode that he was right all along. 

6. This is slightly different, but a Native woman going after museums that were breaking the law (and yes, it is a matter of federal law that Native articles of proven provenance/religious significance must be returned to Native groups) ended up in jail, while Barry and Ralph got to be heroes. And yes, she killed someone - but we've seen plenty of characters kill people on these shows (notably Oliver and Sara, granted, but not just Oliver and Sara) while going after people breaking the law and get called heroes for doing so. So...Native woman tries to be a hero and ends up in jail; Barry....well.

And look, things like number 4 above? Minor sorts of things that always happen in superhero shows and movies, where about the worst thing you can be is an extra - your car is going to get smushed, you're going to have to do a lot of running and screaming, and the chances of having your home and all of your memories destroyed because of a superhero battle is pretty good. (See, pretty much any of the MCU movies on this - I'm struggling to think of an exception here, and I can't.  Even the silly Guardians of the Galaxy films.)  But in the case of Flash in particular, it just adds to the many examples where other characters end up suffering for Barry's actions while Barry either doesn't, or suffers much less.

Beyond that, while yes, Barry does have the trauma of the memories of Reverse-Flash and Zoom murdering his parents right in front of him - Barry exists in a greater Arrowverse where multiple characters have suffered similar if not worse trauma. Kara, Mon-El and Martian Manhunter lost not just their families, but their entire worlds. Wynn also grew up with his father in jail.  Zari lost her entire family. And so on.  Which softens any sympathy that viewers watching any of the other shows (not just the trauma train that is Arrow) might have for Barry.

Edited December 4, 2017 by quarks

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, johntfs said:

In that moment Eobard wanted Barry to kill him.  Whatever else we might think of Barry, it's probably a bad idea to give Eobard Thawne what he wants.

He didn't have to kill Eobard, all he had to do was literally anything other than stand back and let him leave. What a poor excuse for a ~hero, LOL.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Everything would have been solved by having Barry try to knock him out and Eobard escape. You just can’t make this huge crossover about Nazis, make him basically their Mengele and end it like that. Of course I want justice for all the people he did horrible things to while on EX and I’m not fine with that ending..and people who watch the Flash can rationalize it but what are casual viewers or viewers that tuned it for the crossover supposed to think? What’s the message? It’s cool to let Nazis go like that?

[insomniadreams88]

If they really wanted it to be Barry deciding to let him go, have Barry see a kid in danger and be unsure if someone else will get to him/her in time, so he chooses to let Thawne go to save the kid. Just ...  not what they did. 

[Angel12d]

Yeah, they easily could've had them fighting or some kind of struggle and Eobard gets away rather than just letting him stroll away like it's no big deal. Oooh Barry. You done messed up now.

Well, not really. He won't pay for that mistake. As usual. ? ?

[Sakura12]

51 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

If they really wanted it to be Barry deciding to let him go, have Barry see a kid in danger and be unsure if someone else will get to him/her in time, so he chooses to let Thawne go to save the kid. Just ...  not what they did. 

They could've gone with that and I would've been a lot more fine with it over "just go have fun killing more people". It's probably a good thing I'm giving up watching the Flash. I just can't with that show anymore. 

[EmilyBettFan]

Barry Allen is selfish. On top of other things, is one of the reasons I stopped watching the  show. 

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

He was set up by Prometheus who kidnapped Felicity’s boyfriend, put him in his costume and used him essentially as a human shield..Oliver thought he was shooting Prometheus. One of the very rare situations where he wasn’t to blame..

And Felicity knew that.  The first words out of her mouth when Oliver broke the news to her were "It was Prometheus."  She never once blamed Oliver.

[Trini]

Well, of course. It's troublesome, for me, that in the story of them getting together they felt the need to have one romantic rival murder the other.

But character exit via murder seems typical for the show, which is why I couldn't stick with Arrow.

[lemotomato]

15 minutes ago, Trini said:

Well, of course. It's troublesome, for me, that in the story of them getting together they felt the need to have one romantic rival murder the other.

More troublesome than a version of Barry murdering Iris?

[legaleagle53]

9 minutes ago, Trini said:

Well, of course. It's troublesome, for me, that in the story of them getting together they felt the need to have one romantic rival murder the other.

But character exit via murder seems typical for the show, which is why I couldn't stick with Arrow.

"Murder" is the wrong word to use in this particular context from both a legal and a factual standpoint, because it implies that Oliver deliberately killed Billy knowing that it was Billy and not Prometheus.  It would actually be involuntary manslaughter at the very worst because it was an accidental killing. Using the word "murder" to describe what Oliver did renders the word meaningless in its proper context.  If anyone was guilty of actually murdering Billy, it was Prometheus, not Oliver.  Oliver was simply the unwitting murder weapon of choice for Prometheus.  Saying that Oliver murdered Billy is like saying that the arrow through Billy's heart "murdered" him.

[WindofChange]

59 minutes ago, Trini said:

Well, of course. It's troublesome, for me, that in the story of them getting together they felt the need to have one romantic rival murder the other.

This isn't true at all. Everything about Billy's scenes with Felicity screamed temporary. She didn't love him, she didn't think it was real, she wasn't in it 100%. So no, the writers didn't have Oliver inadvertently pull the trigger on Billy (thinking it was Prometheus) just to get rid of a romantic rival. They killed him to for multiple other reasons like jump starting Felicity's storyline. 

Saying the writers killed off Billy because they wanted Oliver/Felicity to get together is like saying they'd still be together now if he were still alive and they most definitely wouldn't have if you watched their scenes (considering you said you don't stick with Arrow I'm guessing that you probably haven't). 

Edited December 4, 2017 by WindofChange