S08.E08: How It's Gotta Be

[iMonrey]

I agree too much of this episode took place in the dark. When Simon shot Neil, I thought he had shot Jerry. Then I spent the next 30 minutes trying to figure out who the hell Neil was. And I couldn't see much of Rick's fight with Negan either. Really frustrating episode. My heart goes out to whoever sat through it live with commercials. 

[peach]

1 hour ago, mightysparrow said:

I think the silence of the cast is deafening.  Usually, after a major death, we hear from how the cast reacted, what the 'death dinner' was like.  This time...crickets.  Andy gives an interview DRIPPING with subtext.  I want Gimple to regret this.  I want him to be sent back to the pit of failed writers where he belongs.  He NEVER should have been made showrunner.

 

58 minutes ago, jls1792 said:

Chandler's dad posted this on his Zombie road trip page in response to a fan:

Watching Gimple fire my son 2 weeks before his 18th birthday after telling him they wanted him for the next 3 years was disappointing.  I never trusted Gimple or AMC but Chandler did.  I know how much it hurt him.  But we do absolutely know how lucky we have been to be a part of it all and appreciate all the love from fans all these years!

So the cast thinks it's a bullshit move, too, and for them it's personal.  With the kind of fanbase this show has, they could really get a backlash from all of this.  Killing Carl for no reason, really, and pulling the rug out from under him to do it.   The general feeling I'm seeing on Facebook is that the show is a confusing mess, and if Carl is dead, there really isn't a point to the show.

[Macbeth]

10 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Anyone who is bitten gets sick, dies, and turns if their brains are not destroyed.. That is the rule.

I agree that is the rule.  But what I am saying the writers are so blase on so many things, I don't expect them to respect the rule.  

[SimoneS]

2 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I agree that is the rule.  But what I am saying the writers are so blase on so many things, I don't expect them to respect the rule.  

Carl is dying. There is no way around it.

[jcin617]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

Carl is dying. There is no way around it.

You wouldn’t put it past the writers to have Carl eventually recover?   Somehow his immune system fights it off?   I totally assume he’s a goner but still I wouldn’t be surprised.  

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, jcin617 said:

You wouldn’t put it past the writers to have Carl eventually recover?   Somehow his immune system fights it off?   I totally assume he’s a goner but still I wouldn’t be surprised.  

At the mid season premiere they can just announce that Coral is healed.  When characters ask how, they can simply respond, "Eugene".   

[TigerLynx]

7 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Carl is dying. There is no way around it.

Sure there is.  If Carl's being killed off results in the ratings sinking even further, I am going to cheer.

[FattyMcButterpants]

Would it have killed these terrible writers to take 5 minutes of that 90 minute Plot Hole Machine to explain how the Saviors go from being completely overrun by Walkers in their compound, with people dying left and right, JUST LAST EPISODE, to getting their entire army out safely and coordinating a massive counterattack against Alexandria and The Kingdom at the same time?  Not to mention, tracking down Maggie's caravan, knocking down a tree, and capturing her entire vehicle parade?

I mean seriously, just 5 minutes to explain what happened in between the end of last episode and the miracle that was occurring in this episode for the Saviors!  And after Ricks group had pretty much killed everyone outside of the Sanctuary, where did all of this manpower, weaponry, and vehicles come from?  None of that makes a lick of sense!

[Gobi]

4 minutes ago, jcin617 said:

You wouldn’t put it past the writers to have Carl eventually recover?   Somehow his immune system fights it off?   I totally assume he’s a goner but still I wouldn’t be surprised.  

I speculated on Carl's survival in the spoiler thread. I wouldn't put it past them.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, FattyMcButterpants said:

Would it have killed these terrible writers to take 5 minutes of that 90 minute Plot Hole Machine to explain how the Saviors go from being completely overrun by Walkers in their compound, with people dying left and right, JUST LAST EPISODE, to getting their entire army out safely and coordinating a massive counterattack against Alexandria and The Kingdom at the same time?  Not to mention, tracking down Maggie's caravan, knocking down a tree, and capturing her entire vehicle parade?

I mean seriously, just 5 minutes to explain what happened in between the end of last episode and the miracle that was occurring in this episode for the Saviors!  And after Ricks group had pretty much killed everyone outside of the Sanctuary, where did all of this manpower, weaponry, and vehicles come from?  None of that makes a lick of sense!

They gave the answer to this: "Eugene."

[nodorothyparker]

2 minutes ago, FattyMcButterpants said:

Would it have killed these terrible writers to take 5 minutes of that 90 minute Plot Hole Machine to explain how the Saviors go from being completely overrun by Walkers in their compound, with people dying left and right, JUST LAST EPISODE, to getting their entire army out safely and coordinating a massive counterattack against Alexandria and The Kingdom at the same time?  Not to mention, tracking down Maggie's caravan, knocking down a tree, and capturing her entire vehicle parade?

This is the same group that had time and apparently earth moving equipment to build complicated roadblocks on every single route between Alexandria and Hilltop back in the days of the doomed RV run.  That and monologuing are their super powers.

[FattyMcButterpants]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

They gave the answer to this: "Eugene."

When last we saw Eugene at the end of last episode, he was having a nervous breakdown watching Walkers overrun the entire facility, and people were dying all around him.  Walkers were piling up on the stairs, and he had no way out.  Cut to this week, Eugene apparently called the giant Eagle from Lord of the Rings to fly everyone out of there at the last minute.

[iMonrey]

I do think the death of Carl will hasten the show's ultimate demise. They've lost over half their audience over the last season and a half. Killing off a major character like Carl is only going to make things worse in terms of bleeding viewers. 

[Gobi]

12 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

They gave the answer to this: "Eugene."

Of course! Eugene has invented a temporal displacement device. That's why we keep seeing  things out  of sequence, it's a side effect of the TDD. He used it to travel to the past to gather weapons, vehicles, even saviors. The scenes of Glenn, Abe, and Carl in the future are just alternate timelines created by the use of the TDD.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Gobi

[paigow]

1 minute ago, Gobi said:

Of course! Eugene has invented a temporal displacement device. 

Also a "screen brightness inhibitor" that maintains a constant 1 / 100 setting....

[stormy weather]

What an awful episode. Most of all I kept asking myself why does everything always have to happen at night, but in general this entire thing was pure chaos. I admit I might not have been paying super close attention because, you know, BOREDOM, and also I watched the episode on my laptop which really didn't help trying to define the already blurry outlines against the dark sky, but really, I could not figure out what was going on 85% of the time. I didn't know who was where, what they were doing, where they were going and couldn't even make out whether we were seeing scenes from Alexandria, Hilltop, Oceanside or the Kingdom. And then in the end, (how??? I'm still wondering), they're magically all reunited in a tunnel that appears to have around 75 different entrances all across Georgia and that I can't recall ever seeing or it being spoken of before. 

The absurdity of this show has now reached Lost levels, it may have even passed them. Do the writers care enough to make this at least a teeny tiny bit believable? I've been waiting for something major to happen for the past 3 seasons, but all I got was a headache trying to figure out how Judith looks like a 4 year old while Maggie has been pregnant for at least two years and doesn't even have a baby bump.

[nitrofishblue]

I want to know where they are stock piling all these gas and ammo. There just doesn't seem to be a shortage of either. Everybody is tooling around in cars with never empty gas tank. They have so much ammo they can waste it by being the worse shots in the world.

[peach]

41 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

That said, it wasn't as though Rick spent that much time with him.  Rick was always running off doing stupid shit.

It's not really their interaction that matters as much as that Carl is what motivates Rick to do all his stupid shit.

[AngelaHunter]

55 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

This is the same group that had time and apparently earth moving equipment to build complicated roadblocks on every single route between Alexandria and Hilltop back in the days of the doomed RV run. 

I believe that's when I started seeing this show as shit. The manpower, the giant equipment/many, many chainsaws and tractors, the untold amount of fuel, the hours to cut down all those giant trees, drag them out of the woods and stack them up on the road and all for - what? A "Check what we can do. Cool, right?" prank?

1 hour ago, peach said:

Killing Carl for no reason, really, and pulling the rug out from under him to do it. 

I've never been a Carl fan, and think acting is perhaps not in this boy's future, but killing him this way is pretty nasty.  So, kill Carl and yet TARA is still there! Useless Tara, with the amateurish acting, the two expressions and the flying boobage.

 

32 minutes ago, stormy weather said:

I admit I might not have been paying super close attention because, you know, BOREDOM, and also I watched the episode on my laptop which really didn't help trying to define the already blurry outlines against the dark sky, but really, I could not figure out what was going on 85% of the time.

 I watched it on a 47" inch screen. Didn't help. I really don't think anyone - even if they watched it at the IMAX in 3-D would have a clue as to what was going on or who was where or why anyone was doing anything. Aaron and Enid in the car? Where are they going? Oh, Oceanside. Why? Who knows. Something something gunshot. Granny is dead. Cut back to chaotic gunshots in the pitch dark. Huh?  I dunno.

Hard to believe that paid writers came up with this script, finished it and said, "There! This is great!" and that Gimple agreed. Yes, it was simply stellar. Bravo.

[ghoulina]

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

I haven't watched this show since the early episodes of last season when I gave up in disgust.  I recall people here always hating Carl and making fun of him and his hat.  Watched last night's episode because I heard talk in the media that many were speculating Carl would die.  Came here expecting a chorus of "hallelujah at long last we are free of Carl" and I am a bit surprised to see so much lamenting that he was the center of the show.  

Did Carl improve sometime during the last season and a half?  I may go back and catch up.

I've never hated Carl. I have loved that kid from day one and I even love his stupid hat. 

I do remember back in the VERY early seasons a lot of Carl hate. I don't think it's been as prevalent for the last few years. Sure, people tease him about the hat, as we tease all the characters we love. In a good natured way. But I do think many have grown fond of Carl over the years, as he's grown and matured. Sure, some still can't stand him. But I'm not surprised at all about the amount of sadness over this death. I can't speak for others, but it may even be more about the IDEA of Carl, than Carl himself, and what this death means for the tone of the show. 

3 hours ago, Wouldofshouldof said:

You mean the scene where Michonne walked away and seemingly left Judith alone by the pond, lol?  : )

Yesssss. WTF was that??? I kept looking around to see who Judith's next babysitter would be. No one was in sight! Maybe Judith is so Shane she can babysit herself at this age?

 

2 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

  This show has a history of treating actors badly but Chandler deserved better than this.  He grew up on this show.  Oh, I hate Gimple!

He really did. To think of his sweet, little freckled face in season one....and then to see him on TTD, so humble and eager to please. He made a family out of that cast. He had such an important part. And Gimple took that all away for no damn good reason. To hear he'd been promised 3 more years just infuriates me. This guy, and Kirkman, is a true sadist. I think he just likes to fuck with people. Including the audience. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by ghoulina

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, FattyMcButterpants said:

Would it have killed these terrible writers to take 5 minutes of that 90 minute Plot Hole Machine to explain how the Saviors go from being completely overrun by Walkers in their compound, with people dying left and right, JUST LAST EPISODE, to getting their entire army out safely and coordinating a massive counterattack against Alexandria and The Kingdom at the same time?  Not to mention, tracking down Maggie's caravan, knocking down a tree, and capturing her entire vehicle parade?

No. Because that would mean Gimple/Kirkman/et. al would actually have to THINK about how this could happen. 

[AngelaHunter]

5 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

This guy, and Kirkman, is a true sadist. I think he just likes to fuck with people. Including the audience. 

It would almost be better if that were the case, but I (and I've never watched any of these people interviewed or on TTD) honestly think this is really the best they can do and are probably pleased with their efforts.

Cheer up, Chandler. "Carl Poppa" has immortalized you.

[watch2much]

I hate when a show is shot in the dark.  I think they did it at night so the explosions would be spectacular.  saw Gimple on Talking Dead and he said he thought for sure everyone would have known when Carl was bitten....I thought, no we couldn't because we couldn't see anything.

This show was best when the core group were together and their interactions as they faced crises.  now, the group is scattered everywhere and we get these boring characters (tara, rosita, etc)  

definitely not what it used to be.

[Smad]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

Anyone who is bitten gets sick, dies, and turns if their brains are not destroyed.. That is the rule.

Here is a question though. The virus is in everyone but dormant until a person dies. Presumably because the person's immune system fights it constantly and keeps it in check. That's why we don't have healthy, living people turning. People who are bitten/scratched get additional infections due to the zombies being rotten corpses etc.. So the immune system can't fight both the zombie virus and the additional infections and the person dies. But technically there should be a small percentage on earth that is immune to the zombie virus. If Carl were such a person then technically all his body would fight after being bitten is whatever the zombie gave him.

Or did I understand the workings of the virus/bite/scratch wrong?

[nodorothyparker]

I know there were Carl haters but I think it was probably far more common to make cracks in those early years about how he never stayed where he was told and Lori in particular never seemed to have any idea what he was up to.  That and comments about his choice in haberdashery that curiously seemed to grow to keep pace with his own growing head.  Beyond that it didn't really much matter what we personally may have thought of him.  He was a huge motivator for everything Rick has done, for the initial decision to look for something permanent instead of perpetually circling the same trees in Georgia and to take the chance to settle in Alexandria in the first place.  

 

24 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I believe that's when I started seeing this show as shit. The manpower, the giant equipment/many, many chainsaws and tractors, the untold amount of fuel, the hours to cut down all those giant trees, drag them out of the woods and stack them up on the road and all for - what? A "Check what we can do. Cool, right?" prank?

The warning flares went up that the show was about to transition to a live action comic rather than a grown-up TV show that happened to have zombies with the initial appearance of Abraham, Eugene, and Rosita in full cover pose, but they managed to somewhat hold it off until this and the eventual appearance of the bat-wielding motormouth.  Then there was simply no more saving it.

[Bryce Lynch]

6 hours ago, ghoulina said:

 

And let's talk about the 5000 plot holes within this episode. Darkness aside, nothing made sense. How DID The Saviors get out? I know, I know....everyone keeps saying, "Eugene". Okay, but what did Eugene do? Have the writers become so lazy that they think it's enough to say, "Eugene came up with a brilliant plan to get us out" and just leave it at that? No explanation? Can you imagine if Walter White had done that? Bah. 

 

This is such a great point.  It makes me think of how Gimple would have written things on BB.   

1) Emilio and Krazy-8 beat Jesse and then hold Walt in the RV at gunpoint.  Episode ends.  Next episode starts with Walt having breakfast with his family.

2) Walt and Jesse are trapped in the Crystal Ship with Hank banging on the door.  Next thing we know, Hank leaves without explanation.

3) Walt is desperately plotting to try to kill Fring, to save himself and Hank from being murdered by Fring.  Jesse knocks on the door and tells him Gus died somehow. 

The laziness and lack of imagination on the part of the TWD showrunners is embarrassing.  So, let's throw some "artistic" lingering closeups of the main characters, that tell us nothing, into each episode. 

[Mu Shu]

2 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Gabriel is sick, but hasn't been bitten.  Is that correct?

When Eugene was in the room talking to Gabriel and the doctor, Eugene mentioned something to the affect that the doctor would make it back to the Hilltop to be there for Maggie, but Eugene didn't think that Gabriel would make it back there alive.  So, what is wrong with Gabriel and is it contagious?

I thought he was faking it to get the doctor out.  Maybe he just had a bad cold and was playing it up.  Who knows?  Maybe he’ll book a flight to Mars on the next episode. 

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, Mu Shu said:

I thought he was faking it to get the doctor out.  Maybe he just had a bad cold and was playing it up.  Who knows?  Maybe he’ll book a flight to Mars on the next episode. 

Flight to Mars?  I think Eugene can handle that.  

[ghoulina]

30 minutes ago, watch2much said:

I hate when a show is shot in the dark.  I think they did it at night so the explosions would be spectacular.  saw Gimple on Talking Dead and he said he thought for sure everyone would have known when Carl was bitten....I thought, no we couldn't because we couldn't see anything.

Except he wasn't bit in THIS episode. It was an earlier one, during the daylight. Many still didn't catch it, so....

 

15 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Gabriel is sick, but hasn't been bitten.  Is that correct?

See, I thought he WAS bitten? I thought he got sick right after he and Negan entered the compound, so I assumed he was bit at some point trying to get through those walkers. I guess not? This show has become so hard to follow lately; and, I swear, I'm not a moron!

[watch2much]

1 minute ago, ghoulina said:

Except he wasn't bit in THIS episode. It was an earlier one, during the daylight. Many still didn't catch it, so....

 

See, I thought he WAS bitten? I thought he got sick right after he and Negan entered the compound, so I assumed he was bit at some point trying to get through those walkers. I guess not? This show has become so hard to follow lately; and, I swear, I'm not a moron!

Someone suggested he caught an infection from wearing the rotting walker  guts.  

I, remember thinking that Carl had been bit back in the other episode.  In this one, I did think he was acting like he was hurt...even limping during it (or what looked like limping- it was dark) 

[AllyS]

1 hour ago, stormy weather said:

And then in the end, (how??? I'm still wondering), they're magically all reunited in a tunnel that appears to have around 75 different entrances all across Georgia and that I can't recall ever seeing or it being spoken of before. 

Was the tunnel the same tunnel Maggie and Aaron were in when they had to kill the sewer walkers?

[AngelaHunter]

21 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

The warning flares went up that the show was about to transition to a live action comic rather than a grown-up TV show that happened to have zombies with the initial appearance of Abraham, Eugene, and Rosita in full cover pose, but they managed to somewhat hold it off until this and the eventual appearance of the bat-wielding motormouth.

Agree. When I first saw that trio, having never seen or even heard of the comic book, I thought they looked like cartoons but they eventually managed to pull it off. Everything is relative. Eugene's ultra-annoying speech and fake mullet, Abe's "Motherdick" and his "When you were mixing the Bisquick... " which at the time had me doing major eyerolls and wondering why I was watching this now seem like a high art form in comparison to the leaning, posturing, grinning BatBoy/Evil Fonz, his posturing, grinning, single-affect "Oil Can Harry" sidekick and his obsession with genitals and name-calling.

I think about gripping scenes, like two little girls pointing guns at a woman's head at the prison, and then compare that scene with Rick in his underdrawers fighting monosyllabic weirdos in a garbage dump and just marvel at such a spectacular deterioration.

[AllyS]

9 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

See, I thought he WAS bitten? I thought he got sick right after he and Negan entered the compound, so I assumed he was bit at some point trying to get through those walkers. I guess not? This show has become so hard to follow lately; and, I swear, I'm not a moron!

I initially thought he was bit too, but then Dr. Carson told Eugene he had some sort of infection. I figured Negan talked him to death.

[peach]

I have finally met someone IRL who thinks Negan is awesome and hilarious and the best character.  And that Rick is boring and terrible.  Pretty sad, considering the Rick Grimes who went into Terminus.  

[Ohwell]

Upon rewatch, I did like how Jadis and the dumpsters just basically said "Fuck it, my name is Bennett and I ain't in it" and just turned around and hightailed it out of there.  I wonder how many survived?  Not that I care.

I did find it odd that when Rick was walking in the tunnel and looking at the sad faces, Ezekiel was the only one who seemed to have a smile on his face.  He looked strange.

I put Enid on my ever-growing list of those who I want to die.  She shot grandma, who was minding her own damn business. 

[Rosiejuliemom]

2 hours ago, jcin617 said:

You wouldn’t put it past the writers to have Carl eventually recover?   Somehow his immune system fights it off?   I totally assume he’s a goner but still I wouldn’t be surprised.  

MSP will clarify the situation. Carl was not munched by a walker. Enid bit him, he did not get the fully activated virus, will be feverish and near-death for the next several episodes, and miraculously recover just in time for the season finale. Yay! Carl's back to kicking ass and chewing bubblegum!

[deemac]

I've been fluctuating on watching the show since Negan was introduced.  Have 3 or 4 still on my DVR unwatched and I just come here and watch TTD to keep up.

My disgust at Negan knows no bounds.  Glen and Abraham had to die to show just how big and bad he was.  Carl, if what I got from TTD is right, dies to foster Rick showing mercy to Negan.  All this for a swaggering egotistic arrested development narcissist abandon all hope idiot.  Real life is bad enough, I've deleted TWD from my dvr schedule.

[Gobi]

11 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

 

I did find it odd that when Rick was walking in the tunnel and looking at the sad faces, Ezekiel was the only one who seemed to have a smile on his face.  He looked strange.

"And yet I smile."

[heisenberg]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

 

 

The warning flares went up that the show was about to transition to a live action comic rather than a grown-up TV show that happened to have zombies with the initial appearance of Abraham, Eugene, and Rosita in full cover pose, but they managed to somewhat hold it off until this and the eventual appearance of the bat-wielding motormouth.  Then there was simply no more saving it.

I think that the tv show is even more cartoonish than the real cartoon.

[FierceCritter]

As much as I'm prepared to accept Carl's (bullshit) death, the part of me that loves him so much I've actually planned to name a future cat after him is grasping at one possibility. The helicopter. That it's a team of recovery soldiers working for government scientists who think they've got a cure ready to go. But that it only works on those who have been bitten, not on the recently dead. And not yet in eliminating the virus from the general population.

 

I know. Wishes and fishes. And I didn't say I BELIEVE that's gonna happen. But, ya know, I just don't want Carl to be dead. :'(

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, peach said:

I have finally met someone IRL who thinks Negan is awesome and hilarious and the best character.  And that Rick is boring and terrible.  Pretty sad, considering the Rick Grimes who went into Terminus.  

I actually see this opinion pretty often on SM as well. :(

[nodorothyparker]

19 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I did find it odd that when Rick was walking in the tunnel and looking at the sad faces, Ezekiel was the only one who seemed to have a smile on his face.  He looked strange.

I don't think that was Ezekiel, but of course I don't have any intention of going back to look to be sure and everything was dark enough that who knows.  Didn't he basically let himself be captured after he got the Kingdomers on the bus to safety?  

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, FierceCritter said:

As much as I'm prepared to accept Carl's (bullshit) death, the part of me that loves him so much I've actually planned to name a future cat after him is grasping at one possibility. The helicopter. That it's a team of recovery soldiers working for government scientists who think they've got a cure ready to go. But that it only works on those who have been bitten, not on the recently dead. And not yet in eliminating the virus from the general population.

 

I know. Wishes and fishes. And I didn't say I BELIEVE that's gonna happen. But, ya know, I just don't want Carl to be dead. :'(

I could totally see Gimple pull some shenanigans that Carl's blood and tissues will be used to find a cure in some way. He goes on the chopper to be used as a guinea pig. Maybe they even find a way to extend his life beyond the normal turning time so they decide to send him back to the group via the chopper and the chopper crashes, killing him for real.

That's not a spoiler just my speculation given the whole Glenn debacle.

8 hours ago, Kiki777 said:

At least when they did that on 'Lost' we got the fun line WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALT!!!!!

And to be fair, it was two different timelines

[Ohwell]

24 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I don't think that was Ezekiel, but of course I don't have any intention of going back to look to be sure and everything was dark enough that who knows.  Didn't he basically let himself be captured after he got the Kingdomers on the bus to safety?  

Well, it looked like a black guy and it wasn't Morgan because I clearly saw him.  I could have sworn it was Ezekiel.   

[ghoulina]

Anyone else think this title is a message from TPTB? "We know you hate the show now, but that's just how it's gotta be".

[Gobi]

9 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Well, it looked like a black guy and it wasn't Morgan because I clearly saw him.  I could have sworn it was Ezekiel.   

Probably was him, they were showing faces of people not in the tunnel, as well.

[watch2much]

watching Talking Dead, the party line all season has been what a great season it was going to be....all out war.  as someone else pointed out, it's become an action series instead of a series about ordinary people adapting to life after a major catastrophe.  

Last season it was all motor mouth Negan.  This season it's all explosions and gun fights.  There's no more thoughtful dialog or interaction among the characters.   The only character I've come to feel anything for is Dwight....you know his story...you understand why he's done what he's done and why he's had enough.  

Although I was ambivalent about the Carl, I, too, felt he was integral to the story.  The children are the future.  They are why you keep trying to survive.  They represent hope.  It will be a long time before Judith becomes a focal point.

and this whole plot of Carl being the moral voice.  He went to the Sanctuary with Jesus to kill Negan.  He's been the first to shoot a lot.  In fact, we've seen his development as a fighter as he grew.  Now, all of a sudden, he does a Carol and becomes reflective.  It's not believable.

[Ohwell]

6 minutes ago, Gobi said:

Probably was him, they were showing faces of people not in the tunnel, as well.

Oh, ok then, that would make sense.  Honestly, as already mentioned, the entire episode was so dark and they kept showing the closeup faces, that I couldn't tell who was in the tunnel and who wasn't. 

[SnarkyTart]

10 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

All the who's Neil talk made me think of this:

LOL!  As I find myself asking, "Who's Neil?" "Who's Diane?" "Who's Jared?" "Who's Cal?", I keep thinking of this:

 

RIP Abraham.  It was so funny when you asked this question, but little did we realize you were foreshadowing the day when viewers would be asking who multiple tertiary characters were as they consumed increasing amounts of screen time before being killed off. 

[CrashTextDummie]

With the episode a few hours behind me, I'm able to focus on the lighter, read: sillier parts of it that haven't been discussed much.

Like, remember how Morgan was a sniper keeping an eye on the savior compound? Never mind the fact that it's never established why they have 3 snipers (I'm pretty sure it was 3: north, east, west?) holding down the compound, I'm pretty sure savior people looked out the windows in the previous episodes and didn't get sniped. Clearly they also weren't there to signal the rest of the army in case something unexpected happened. Also never mind why Morgan became a sniper in the first place when last we saw him he had another existential crisis herding prisoners to the Hilltop, not to mention the fact that I don't think we've ever seen him fire a rifle, him being a big fan of sticks and all. So Rick arrives on the scene and the snipers are gone, or rather they don't respond on the walky talky. Where did they go? Did they flee? Did they run to warn the others? Were they killed?

Whatever the case may be, Morgan arrives alive and well at the Kingdom just in time to witness Zeke getting captured by the end of the episode. Since he arrives well after the saviors, I guess he was on foot? After all, why provide one of your abundant cars to the snipers.