Avengers: Infinity War (2018)

[Smad]

43 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

I haven't seen any specific explanation, but I would guess that her soul was gone from her body before it hit the bottom, so basically it was just a shell at that point.  

The soul doesn't leave the body unless the body is dead. Or at least I can't imagine it would. And Gamora was moving and screaming still during the fall. I don't buy it. It's just another retcon to me. The fall wasn't that far and we have seen her land on her feet from an equal if not higher starting point. Just more BS surrounding Gamora in this movie.

[Wynterwolf]

Just now, Smad said:

The soul doesn't leave the body unless the body is dead. Or at least I can't imagine it would.

It's my understanding that is exactly the function of the Soul Stone (and the Russos confirmed that her soul is now in the Soul Stone), to transport souls to a pocket universe it houses before the body is dead.  I think we have yet to be told the exact mechanics of how this will work in the MCU but from the Marvel site:

Quote

Soul Gem. Within the Soul Gem is a pocket Dimension known as Soulworld. TheSoul Gem has the vampiric ability to absorb souls, project concussive blast of force, devolve living organisms, telepathy and shape shifting abilities.

But, until they explain it on screen, you can interpret what you saw in any way that makes sense to you.  

[Smad]

57 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

It's my understanding that is exactly the function of the Soul Stone (and the Russos confirmed that her soul is now in the Soul Stone), to transport souls to a pocket universe it houses before the body is dead.  I think we have yet to be told the exact mechanics of how this will work in the MCU but from the Marvel site:

But, until they explain it on screen, you can interpret what you saw in any way that makes sense to you.  

I can only work with what I see on screen. We see Gamora falling, she is still moving her limbs and screaming so she was alive in the moment. Then we get one second on Thanos' face as he closes his eyes. The next shot is Gamora dead on the ground. And only after that is the lightening in the sky which was for me when her soul left and got into the stone. Hence I have a problem with the scene because the fall shouldn't have killed her. She has fallen from greater heights and survived.

Also it's the only thing that makes sense to me. Why is a death necessary if the soul can leave the body before death? Then Thanos could have just said: I give this soul to you, stone. And the stone just takes her soul. But the death was required, and IMO it was for the body to die so the soul can be freed and go into the stone.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Smad

[Dee]

‘Avengers: Infinity War’ Tops ‘Jurassic World’ As Fourth-Biggest Film Globally

Quote

Disney announced Thursday that the third “Avengers” film hit $1.686 billion worldwide. Domestic grosses reached $562.9 million after 20 days of release, while international totaled $1.123 billion in three weeks. Overseas grosses are led by China with $240.3 million, South Korea with $86.2 million, the U.K. with $84.5 million, Brazil with $57.5 million, and Mexico with $56 million.

“Avengers: Infinity War” became the fastest film to hit the $1 billion worldwide mark, needing only 11 days to do so. It reached the milestone one day earlier than “Star Wars: The Force Awakens.” It now trails only three titles at the all-time worldwide box office — “Avatar” with $2.79 billion, “Titanic” with $2.19 billion and “Star Wars: The Force Awakens” at $2.07 billion.

The domestic total is currently eighth on the all-time list. After three weekends in first place, “Infinity War” will likely get bumped down to second place in its fourth weekend by Fox’s launch of “Deadpool 2,” which is tracking for between $130 million and $150 million in North America. “Infinity War” will probably take around $30 million to wind up this weekend with close to a $600 million domestic total.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Dee

[HunterHunted]

I loved this exploration of Gamora and Thanos.

https://www.tor.com/2018/05/17/its-time-to-talk-about-marvels-gamora-problem/

[scarynikki12]

That sums up nicely why I DON’T think Thanos loves her. She matters to him more than anything or anyone else but that’s not the same thing. And I fully believe this was intended and will contribute to his undoing in 4. 

[festivus]

That's an interesting article. Maybe that will be part of the undoing of Thanos in A4. That he did not sacrifice someone he loves because he loves nothing and can not understand love. I'll save any rage I have over it till we see what happens.

[Smad]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

That sums up nicely why I DON’T think Thanos loves her. She matters to him more than anything or anyone else but that’s not the same time. And I fully believe this was intended and will contribute to his undoing in 4. 

I think the problem for me is how an adult viewer can tell the difference and see the nuance within that dynamic. That of course it's not love as we understand it. That this 'love' is twisted, possessive and abusive. But the many children watching this movie...will they get that nuance? Because when you sum up that scene on Vormir it's basically 'abused child tells abusive parent that abuse is not love' and the movie says 'yes it is' because the sacrifice is successful.

It also didn't help that they retconned Gamora's history established in GOTG1 to make Thanos more sympathetic when it comes to her and their relationship.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Smad

[Lantern7]

 Just wanted to share this sketch I got. Based it off Steve's look from the movie. Oh, and we're not calling him "Nomad," are we? That never feels right.

[VCRTracking]

5 hours ago, Smad said:

I think the problem for me is how an adult viewer can tell the difference and see the nuance within that dynamic. That of course it's not love as we understand it. That this 'love' is twisted, possessive and abusive. But the many children watching this movie...will they get that nuance? Because when you sum up that scene on Vormir it's basically 'abused child tells abusive parent that abuse is not love' and the movie says 'yes it is' because the sacrifice is successful.

It also didn't help that they retconned Gamora's history established in GOTG1 to make Thanos more sympathetic when it comes to her and their relationship.

Yeah, I rewatched the scenes where Gamora talks about Thanos in the first GOTG and it does seem like a total retcon.

I will say I like the touch of Thanos always calling her "little one" and seeing her as her younger self in the Soul Stone in the end.

[JustaPerson]

7 hours ago, Smad said:

I think the problem for me is how an adult viewer can tell the difference and see the nuance within that dynamic. That of course it's not love as we understand it. That this 'love' is twisted, possessive and abusive. But the many children watching this movie...will they get that nuance? Because when you sum up that scene on Vormir it's basically 'abused child tells abusive parent that abuse is not love' and the movie says 'yes it is' because the sacrifice is successful.

I interpreted the scene with the soul stone as it using what the individual (Thanos) considers love. For Thanos, his feelings toward Gamora were loving. Since he is the one to wield it, the stone used Thanos's personal scale to determine the validity of his sacrifice. But I don't read the comics. And as he is the "bad guy," I can't imagine kids would see his abuse in a positive light. 

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

I will say I like the touch of Thanos always calling her "little one" and seeing her as her younger self in the Soul Stone in the end.

Me too. The scene in the soul stone where she asks him "what did it cost?" was eerie and poignant. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by JustaPerson

[Smad]

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Yeah, I rewatched the scenes where Gamora talks about Thanos in the first GOTG and it does seem like a total retcon.

Absolutely. Almost everything about Gamora from GOTG1 was retconned. The movie flat out states that Gamora is the last of her people. But apparently not. Gamora herself said that Thanos killed her parents in front of her. First off, she seemed to only have one parent in the IW flash back but I can headcanon that away with maybe the father being at work or something. The bigger problem is that Thanos shielded her from seeing the massacre of her people. There is no way that he killed her parents in front of her after he shielded her from that horrific act. And then there is the fact Gamora seemed to have no prior knowledge of Infinity Stones. She appeared as unknowing about them as Peter. Otherwise there should have been some reaction on her part because she apparently was send on a quest herself to get a stone prior to GOTG1.

[Jenniferbug]

This is probably an embarrassing question to ask, considering how many times I've seen this movie now, but: how does Thanos know where most of the stones are?

I can accept that word of the power stone on Xandar and the reality stone on Knowhere would maybe be common knowledge. I can even accept that he may have known the space stone was on Asgaard. 

But how did he know Loki had taken it from Asgaard and had it on the ship? How did he locate the ship? 

It doesn't seem like Vision's existence and possession of the mind stone is super common knowledge. How did they track him to Scotland and then to Wakanda?

It also doesn't seem like Doctor Strange's possession of the time stone was well known either. Yes he used it publicly in his movie, but I don't think most people would remember that since he reversed what happened. 

And I don't think we can say that Thanos had some ability to sense the stones or he would have been able to find the soul stone without Gamora. (He wouldn't have been able to obtain without her, but that's beside the point). 

Maybe this was all explained and I've missed it with all the other fun things to think about, but I'd really love to know the answers. 

[scarynikki12]

They didn't explain but I would guess that either Ebony Maw cast a tracking spell of some kind or the stones can sense each other in some way.  None of that would explain why he couldn't find the Soul Stone without Gamora but that's all I've got.

[Jenniferbug]

If we never get an official explanation, I'm going to accept your Ebony Maw theory as my head canon! 

[HunterHunted]

17 hours ago, Jenniferbug said:

This is probably an embarrassing question to ask, considering how many times I've seen this movie now, but: how does Thanos know where most of the stones are?

I can accept that word of the power stone on Xandar and the reality stone on Knowhere would maybe be common knowledge. I can even accept that he may have known the space stone was on Asgaard. 

But how did he know Loki had taken it from Asgaard and had it on the ship? How did he locate the ship? 

It doesn't seem like Vision's existence and possession of the mind stone is super common knowledge. How did they track him to Scotland and then to Wakanda?

It also doesn't seem like Doctor Strange's possession of the time stone was well known either. Yes he used it publicly in his movie, but I don't think most people would remember that since he reversed what happened. 

And I don't think we can say that Thanos had some ability to sense the stones or he would have been able to find the soul stone without Gamora. (He wouldn't have been able to obtain without her, but that's beside the point). 

Maybe this was all explained and I've missed it with all the other fun things to think about, but I'd really love to know the answers. 

17 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

They didn't explain but I would guess that either Ebony Maw cast a tracking spell of some kind or the stones can sense each other in some way.  None of that would explain why he couldn't find the Soul Stone without Gamora but that's all I've got.

 

I think an argument can be made that the stones "call" to each other. We've just never seen someone knowledgeable about them and in possession of them for long enough to see that happen. Didn't Vision say he could sort of sense the other stones in Infinity War? The Avengers were also able to use the mind stone to deactivate the space stone in Avengers 1.

In Avengers, they were able to search for Loki and the space stone based on the radiation they gave off. I think once Thanos' agents had a hint about what planet the stone might be on, it was probably pretty easy to find the stone.

Additionally, Thanos has/had tons of agents searching for the stones:

• Gamora
• Nebula
• The Other
• Loki
• Korath the Pursuer
• Ronan the Accuser
• Proxima Midnight
• Corvus Glave
• Ebony Maw
• Cull Obsidian
• 3 armies (Chitauri, Sakaaran, and Outrider)

The stinger at the end of Age of Ultron was Thanos saying "Fine. I'll do it myself." to The Other, which suggests that The Other had some ability to monitor what was happening on Earth.

As @Jenniferbug said, a number of infinity stone events where high profile enough that Thanos and his agents should know where to look:

• Odin sent the space stone to Earth. Thanos let Loki use the mind stone to retrieve the space stone and conquer Earth. Loki failed to conquer Earth. Loki was later prominently seen in the dungeons of Asgard, and Sakaar. This suggests that the space and mind stone are likely on Earth or Asgard.
• The Dark Elves attacked Asgard looking for the reality stone. The Asgardians sent it to Knowhere.
• The power stone was prominently seen on Knowhere and Xandar. Thanos' actual agents (Korath, Ronan, and the Sakaaran troops) were present at both locations and could have relayed this info to Thanos.
• Since he knows that the mind, space, and reality stones might be on Asgard, he could have sent his troops to slip into Asgard while Hela and Surtur were battling to look for the stones.

Basically he knows to look for stones on Earth, Asgard, Xandar, and Knowhere. Asgard is in ruins, so he needs to find Asgardians.

Edited May 19, 2018 by HunterHunted

[Kel Varnsen]

Plus Thanos was in possession of the mind stone for who knows how long before he gave it to Loki in Avengers. Maybe that gave him some kind of link to it and/or the other ones.

[Jenniferbug]

I think my only problem with the theory that he knows where they are because the stones sense each other is that the soul stone's location was unknown. Why would that one be exempt? Also while I could believe the Thanos, Vision, and Doctor Strange can sense stones because they are in possession of one, that doesn't really explain how Proxima Midnight, etc were able to track Vision to Wakanda. 

I'm probably over thinking this. It's not detracting from my enjoyment of the movie, just seems like a big plot hole.

[Smad]

Does anyone know if 'nixing half the universe' only concerns the dominant life form on each planet? Because half of all life also means animals and plants. Which is why Thanos' plan makes no sense to me. Animals and plants are also resources, not just for the dominant life form but also each other. So by erasing half of all life, Thanos also essentially erased parts of the 'finite resources' that he was so damn concerned about.

[Sakura12]

He didn't take Rocket, it could be because he's an animal or the only one of his kind. 

[HunterHunted]

5 hours ago, Jenniferbug said:

Also while I could believe the Thanos, Vision, and Doctor Strange can sense stones because they are in possession of one, that doesn't really explain how Proxima Midnight, etc were able to track Vision to Wakanda. 

In the first Avengers film, the team was able to track Loki and the mind stone to Germany and the Tesseract/space stone just based off of the radiation that the stones emit. This was actually Bruce Banner's sole reason for being on the Helicarrier--to help SHIELD search for the Tesseract with his knowledge of gamma radiation. If humans are able to do that, I can't imagine that Thanos and the Black Order can't do it.

However, the reason that Thanos needs his agents generally searching for the stones is because it's one thing to just search on a particular planet, it's another thing to search across the entire universe. We don't know how strongly the Infinity stones emit radiation or whether it's detectable across many galaxies. It's the difference between looking for your missing car keys in your house and looking for them somewhere in the Northern Hemisphere.

Edited May 19, 2018 by HunterHunted

[Wynterwolf]

52 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

We don't know how strongly the Infinity stones emit radiation or whether it's detectable across many galaxies.

... or even if they all do emit radiation.  Each stone may have unique properties, which would require different methods for finding each of them.  Which would be even more reason why Thanos would need a lot of agents scouring the universe for them.  

[Bruinsfan]

The mind stone was in Thanos' possession first, before he gave it to Loki prior to the beginning of The Avengers. I think it highly likely he would have developed some way to track that particular stone before letting go of it to an ally whose treacherous nature was well established.

As for destroying the stones that various heroes had access to, Thor was unable to destroy the reality stone with a weapon that helped melt Ultron's nearly indestructible vibranium body and could channel enough power to disintegrate a small city. It's quite likely that no one would have been able to destroy the time stone, and in fact is entirely possible that the mind stone would have reassembled itself after Wanda blew it to bits just as the reality stone did in Thor: The Dark World if the time stone hadn't been used to reverse its destruction first.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Bruinsfan

[dwmarch]

On 5/12/2018 at 5:14 PM, rmontro said:

Finally saw this - I like to wait until the crowds thin out.

In that case you must have loved the ending.

Too soon?

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, dwmarch said:

In that case you must have loved the ending.

Too soon?

Too soon! ???

[nicepebbles]

Quote

Starri: I loved every damned thing about the Wakanda parts.  Especially Okoye saying that she'd hoped a more open Wakanda would mean they'd host the Olympics or get a Starbucks.  Just so long as Karen agrees to leave her bland-ass potato salad at home.

This is from several pages way back.  I had to repost it.  Still cracks me up.

I saw the movie last week and it's taken this long to really process it.  It was an emotional experience.  I needed a drink after and to sleep to recover.  

I'd put this in my top 5 Marvel movies (listed from #1 to #5): Black Panther, Avengers: Infinity War, Thor: Ragnarok, Spiderman: Homecoming, Captain America: Civil War (which might as well be called Avengers: Civil War but that's a topic for another thread);

At the time different characters died, I wasn't thinking about sequels so I was gutted.  Even now having remembered the sequels, I'm still upset.  So I disagree with the critics that say the deaths are meaningless and have no emotional resonance.  Until we see the next one, we really don't know who's really dead.  Nor do we know how the sequels will fit into the timeline. 

Bucky better come back in the next one and Steve better not die because we fans have earned some quality time on screen for these two without Bucky being the Winter Solider and Steve on his epic quest.  I feel so cheated at only having gotten a hug between the two of them.  If Steve has to die in the next one, please give us some moments of significance between the two.  I'd be okay if Steve did die in the next mostly because I was expecting it to happen in this one.  Glad it didn't happen though and I'd like it not to happen.  It'd make sense though if it does.  All this talk of we don't sacrifice anyone, which had me like, "You sure? Half the world for the person/entity that's like I'm willing to do this?"  Yeah, it sucks because life is unfair. 

Before seeing this one, if you had asked me about Thanos, I might've given you a blank look and had to rack my brain for info on his character.  He never resonated much with me.  I didn't care much for his quest.  In this though?  Way to make a compelling character.  Even though he's wrong, wrong, and more wrong, I could understand his viewpoint and want to watch and see what he does.  I wasn't rolling my eyes and waiting for him to get off the screen.  What really sold it for me was him killing Gamora and then when he talks to little Gamora after he's done the dusting. 

I really had low expectations coming into this movie.  I didn't trust that they would be able to pull all these characters together and have a coherent story and do everyone justice in 2-3 hours.  I really thought it would be one movie.  I was avoiding any and all info about the movie so I was pleasantly surprised at it being a 2 parter.  Knowing it's a 2 parter makes the decisions about certain characters in the movie make a lot more sense because I suspect we'll see more of them in the second one.  Those characters that got short drift in this one being Steve, Shuri, Nat and a few others.  Plus, we'll get the guys that weren't in this one.  They did really did a great job in bringing everyone together.  It didn't feel haphazard and rushed.  I felt like they were able to blend the movies seamlessly for the most part.

A couple of part seemed off, like there's something with both Steve and T'Challa that can't quite put my finger on.  I think it was maybe some of their lines. 

Thor was the MVP for me, which I wasn't expecting at all, since I didn't think anyone character would've been written in such a way as to stand out except for Thanos.  After this movie and Thor: Ragnorak, I act like the first 2 Thor movies don't exist.  I much prefer this version of Thor.  Pretty much all of his scenes gutted me from watching Loki and Heimdall die to talking to Rocket about going after Thanos.  Chris H nailed it.  I really hope for his sake Valkyrie made it safely off with some Asgardians and not too many of them were dusted.  When Loki and Heimdall died I just wanted to cry and the feeling just got worse.  (I wouldn't be surprised if they don't come back.)  I mean when Peter P (he's just a baby!) went, just come one movie with the tugging at the heartstrings.  Okoye and T'Challa.  Steve and Bucky.  I'm really surprised I didn't start bawling. 

I'm okay with Thor and Peter Q "messing up" if it's meant to be.  I, too, hate when characters do stupid things for sake of plot.  I don't think that's the case here though, which perhaps doesn't make sense.  But it did in my head when I was thinking about it. 

I refuse to believe Groot can't come back since Stormbreaker has a piece of Groot as it's handle.  Rocket just has to remember that. 

I really hope Nat keeps the blonde hair.  Seeing her just made me realize how bad her wig was in some of the other movies. 

I never paid much attention to Vision and Wanda yet I gave a damn in this movie. 

I think that's all I got.  I'm tempted to see it again yet I don't know if I want to have that experience again even though I know what happens.  *sigh*

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 5/14/2018 at 5:39 PM, Smad said:

The only way Peter could have successfully killed Gamora was asap, pretty much before Thanos knew what would happen. And as for Vision, again that was something that should have been looked into since CW if not right after AoU. Then maybe Vision and the stone would have parted ways long ago. But waiting until it's literally too late never works out.

I don't think that was ever really an option. Gamora tried to kill herself on Vormir when she realized Thanos was really going to throw her off the cliff, and he did the same thing he did with Peter, turned the knife she was carrying into bubbles. She mocked him for weeping, because she thought it was due to him finally not being able to have something he wanted, but when Red Skull said the tears weren't for himself, she made a last effort to keep him from sacrificing her. Didn't work, sure, but I think Thanos was just so damn single-minded about his goal that he'd prepared for every possible instance. Even Nebula was stunned that he'd gone through with it, and after everything she's been through with him, you'd think she'd have been prepared for it.

 

On 5/18/2018 at 6:55 AM, Smad said:

 The bigger problem is that Thanos shielded her from seeing the massacre of her people. There is no way that he killed her parents in front of her after he shielded her from that horrific act. And then there is the fact Gamora seemed to have no prior knowledge of Infinity Stones. She appeared as unknowing about them as Peter. Otherwise there should have been some reaction on her part because she apparently was send on a quest herself to get a stone prior to GOTG1.

FWIW, the flashback doesn't specify if Gamora's mother was killed when the soldiers opened fire, because they got separated in the confusion and then Thanos found her in the crowd. He does shield her from watching the slaughter, but what I took away from it was that he was already starting the indoctrination process by keeping her focused on the knife with its perfect balance. He wasn't doing it out of kindness, he was doing it so he could start molding her into what he wanted right there. And when he brings her into Nebula's cell, he already knew she knew where the final stone was, he just didn't know how to get there. At one point, Gamora tells Thor that the only thing Thanos ever wanted was to fulfill his goal of getting the stones, but she never mentions the gauntlet he'd had made. Of course, even Thor didn't know about the gauntlet until his group of non-morons go to the forge to find all but one of the dwarves dead.

 

1 hour ago, nicepebbles said:

 Thor was the MVP for me, which I wasn't expecting at all, since I didn't think anyone character would've been written in such a way as to stand out except for Thanos.  After this movie and Thor: Ragnorak, I act like the first 2 Thor movies don't exist.  I much prefer this version of Thor.  Pretty much all of his scenes gutted me from watching Loki and Heimdall die to talking to Rocket about going after Thanos.  Chris H nailed it.  I really hope for his sake Valkyrie made it safely off with some Asgardians and not too many of them were dusted.  When Loki and Heimdall died I just wanted to cry and the feeling just got worse.

 

I was thinking on this myself, and yes, Thor's practically an entirely different character now. His early booming cheerfulness has been replaced with gravitas, even if it's melancholy. His parents, brother, and best friend are all dead, his home has been destroyed, and we don't even know where Sif and Valkyrie are, though I've heard that Valkyrie is alive and managed to take some of the refugees with her before Thanos attacked. But like he told Rocket, and did I ever love Rocket's discomfort at all that pain just roiling under the surface, he's fought hundreds if not thousands of enemies and defeated them all. He will only die if fate wills it. I didn't even know Hemsworth could pull off the bloodied-but-unbowed thing, but wow.

[anna0852]

 I agree, Thor really was a stand out here. I'm really looking forward to seeing how he reintegrates with the team in A4. I'm pretty sure it's going to center around ripping them up one side and down the other for tearing each other apart in Civil War. And once he's done yelling at them, starting to formulate a plan to deal with the aftermath of the dusting. Because by now we have seen Thor possesses the ability to maturely push through the pain and get things done. He seems to have developed a knack for identifying the practical steps that need to be taken to move forward. And I think they're all going to need someone who can do that.

[Smad]

7 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I don't think that was ever really an option. Gamora tried to kill herself on Vormir when she realized Thanos was really going to throw her off the cliff, and he did the same thing he did with Peter, turned the knife she was carrying into bubbles. She mocked him for weeping, because she thought it was due to him finally not being able to have something he wanted, but when Red Skull said the tears weren't for himself, she made a last effort to keep him from sacrificing her. Didn't work, sure, but I think Thanos was just so damn single-minded about his goal that he'd prepared for every possible instance. Even Nebula was stunned that he'd gone through with it, and after everything she's been through with him, you'd think she'd have been prepared for it.

Well first of all I had to swallow the stupidity of Gamora being the one saying 'lets go directly to Thanos' and then putting it on Quill to kill her. Instead of her killing herself right then and there. Or I don't know, not going directly to where Thanos is might also have been a good option. But Peter could have killed Gamora on Knowhere, only it needed to be done right away. The scene was so long though and Thanos caught on quickly. If Peter had shot Gamora right away when Thanos grabbed her, Thanos might not have reacted quickly enough to use the gauntlet and Reality stone.

8 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

FWIW, the flashback doesn't specify if Gamora's mother was killed when the soldiers opened fire, because they got separated in the confusion and then Thanos found her in the crowd. He does shield her from watching the slaughter, but what I took away from it was that he was already starting the indoctrination process by keeping her focused on the knife with its perfect balance. He wasn't doing it out of kindness, he was doing it so he could start molding her into what he wanted right there.

It depends on how you read the writers intend IMO. This movie was designed to focus on Thanos and make him a complex person. It also focused heavily on Thanos' feelings for Gamora to show a different side of him. I guess you could read the scene as just indoctrination but that would go against what they were trying to do with him in regards to Gamora in this movie. Also the odds of both of Gamora's parents (and the movie never showed 2 parents so she likely only had a mother) surviving the bombings of the planet and the massacres are pretty unlikely. It would make more sense to me for Thanos to shield her from the horrors so he ends up with a more complacent child. The writers were also going for there being some form of love Gamora felt for him to sell her reaction to when she 'killed' him and that wouldn't have worked IMO if he killed her parents in front of her. Something that wasn't even mentioned/shown in the movie because IMO in this retconned version it never happened.

[Kel Varnsen]

11 hours ago, nicepebbles said:

Before seeing this one, if you had asked me about Thanos, I might've given you a blank look and had to rack my brain for info on his character.  He never resonated much with me.  I didn't care much for his quest.  In this though?  Way to make a compelling character.  Even though he's wrong, wrong, and more wrong, I could understand his viewpoint and want to watch and see what he does. 

I can't really understand it. With the full gauntlet he basically had god-like powers to control just about anything. If he was really worried about people suffering due to limited resources, just use the stones to make more resources. If your go to solution is to wipe out half the population of the universe, you're just an asshole.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

It depends on how you read the writers intend IMO. This movie was designed to focus on Thanos and make him a complex person. It also focused heavily on Thanos' feelings for Gamora to show a different side of him. I guess you could read the scene as just indoctrination but that would go against what they were trying to do with him in regards to Gamora in this movie. Also the odds of both of Gamora's parents (and the movie never showed 2 parents so she likely only had a mother) surviving the bombings of the planet and the massacres are pretty unlikely. It would make more sense to me for Thanos to shield her from the horrors so he ends up with a more complacent child. The writers were also going for there being some form of love Gamora felt for him to sell her reaction to when she 'killed' him and that wouldn't have worked IMO if he killed her parents in front of her. Something that wasn't even mentioned/shown in the movie because IMO in this retconned version it never happened.

Except I think it's important to remember what Thanos considers love, and this is something I never say otherwise. At the start of the film, when Thor or whoever is sending out the distress signal  and then they show the interior of the ship with bodies lying everywhere, one of his Children is walking through the carnage saying that they should rejoice, because that was Thanos' way of showing mercy. A quick death, as opposed to what he was doing and had done to Nebula; literally pulling her apart in an effort to get Gamora to reveal the location of the last stone, and before that gradually replacing her human(ish) body with cybernetic parts to 'improve' her. Make her more like Gamora, who I think does (did) love him, even though he's monstrous and psychopathic and genocidal. That it turns out he doesn't think she's relevant enough to kill permanently doesn't undo what's already happened, IMO.  In the first Guardians movie, Nebula told Ronan that if he killed Thanos, she'd help him destroy a thousand planets, but while her entire arc has been about how much she hates him, I don't think she ever really hated her sister, no matter how many times they'd fought and her attacking Gamora repeatedly. To say that family is complicated in the MCU is putting it mildly, and I think in Thanos' twisted mind he thinks what he feels for Gamora is fatherly love. Again, psychopath, and I think him taking Gamora when she was still a little kid has a lot to do with how she still felt about him. She didn't have anyone left by the time he was done, and like Peter with Yondu she had to cleave to him if she wanted to live. JMO.

[Crs97]

5 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

If he was really worried about people suffering due to limited resources, just use the stones to make more resources

My kids kept saying the same thing.

[morakot]

Nitpicky question: if Steve and his team were traveling around the globe doing something (it was not clear to me quite what that was) that resulted in them looking sad, ungroomed, and raggedy, how did they get the jet, and how did they pay for jet fuel?

[Wynterwolf]

34 minutes ago, morakot said:

Nitpicky question: if Steve and his team were traveling around the globe doing something (it was not clear to me quite what that was) that resulted in them looking sad, ungroomed, and raggedy, how did they get the jet, and how did they pay for jet fuel?

Per the Prelude comic tie in, Steve, Natasha and Sam (and apparently also Wanda, with apparently Vision's knowledge), have been going all over the world tracking down and retrieving any alien tech that is being used for nefarious purposes.  I believe that quinjet is the one that Steve and Bucky left Siberia in after Civil War and it seems a fair assumption that T'Challa has been funding and supporting them.  Though since Sam didn't seem to know that, I am also assuming Steve has kept that to a minimum (and Natasha would also likely have resources they could use), especially since he wouldn't want to put T'Challa and Wakanda at risk.  They are still trying as much as possible to stay under the radar of the world's governments, which is probably also why Steve hid his visits to Bucky in Wakanda.   

[Morrigan2575]

7 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I don't think she ever really hated her sister, no matter how many times they'd fought and her attacking Gamora repeatedly. To say that family is complicated in the MCU is putting it mildly, and I think in Thanos' twisted mind he thinks what he feels for Gamora is fatherly love. Again, psychopath, and I think him taking Gamora when she was still a little kid has a lot to do with how she still felt about him. She didn't have anyone left by the time he was done, and like Peter with Yondu she had to cleave to him if she wanted to live. JMO.

I thought all the way back in GOTG1 that Nebula had a love/hate relationship with Gamora. There was an epic level of sibling rivalry there and we do get that line from Nebula (of all out siblings I hated you the least). We also get comments from Thanos about Gamora being his favorite daughter.

In GOTG2 we got more of the Nebula/Gamora relationship. They were both tortured/scared children but, it was clear that Gamora was a favorite child while Nebula constantly got the Thanos version of 'why can't you be more like your (big) sister?'

I don't doubt that Thanos loves Gamora, it's a weird, twisted, psychopathic version of love but, consider the source.  I also think that's all the Soul Stone needed, that the Person making the sacrifice had to feel the sacrifice (love/loss of love).

I also wasn't surprised to find out that part of Gamora actually did love Thanos, even though a larger part hated him. That scene where she broke down after killing him reminded me of the line from Kill Bill:

So, now you ain't gonna hafta face your enemy on the battlefield no more, which "R" are you filled with: Relief or Regret?

Would have been interesting to see Gamora's answer because I could see it going either way.

I absolutely loved ALL of the Thanos/Gamora interactions in this movie. I thought it added so much depth to Gamora's character. 

[Smad]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I thought all the way back in GOTG1 that Nebula had a love/hate relationship with Gamora. There was an epic level of sibling rivalry there and we do get that line from Nebula (of all out siblings I hated you the least). We also get comments from Thanos about Gamora being his favorite daughter.

In GOTG2 we got more of the Nebula/Gamora relationship. They were both tortured/scared children but, it was clear that Gamora was a favorite child while Nebula constantly got the Thanos version of 'why can't you be more like your (big) sister?'

Funnily enough Nebula's line from the first movie doesn't make sense when looking at the second one. Because the second movie strangely makes no mention of other children, however we are lead to believe that every body modification done to Nebula is because Gamora won every fight. And to me it seemed all of Nebula's hatred was for Gamora (and Thanos), not any other children.

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I also wasn't surprised to find out that part of Gamora actually did love Thanos, even though a larger part hated him. That scene where she broke down after killing him reminded me of the line from Kill Bill:

So, now you ain't gonna hafta face your enemy on the battlefield no more, which "R" are you filled with: Relief or Regret?

Would have been interesting to see Gamora's answer because I could see it going either way.

Abused children can still love their abusive parent. Her tears were probably equal parts sadness and relief after she killed him. I would have preferred to have her crying and laughing to give it even more nuance but, oh well.

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I absolutely loved ALL of the Thanos/Gamora interactions in this movie. I thought it added so much depth to Gamora's character. 

Eh, too abrupt for me. This should have been explored in a previous Guardians movie instead of Gunn just paying lip service to it. Preferably the first one which was Gamora's story but it got high jacked by man-child Quill. Just like Thanos calling her 'the fiercest woman in the galaxy'. I was hoping no one would ever drop any variation of her title from the comics because there has been nothing so far to back that up. They can't have him call her that without having shown us any indication that she deserves that title. One reason I'm starting to resent Gunn and the GOTG movies. She's nothing but a glorified, potential girlfriend and mother hen to a bunch of eternal man-children.

 

10 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Except I think it's important to remember what Thanos considers love, and this is something I never say otherwise. At the start of the film, when Thor or whoever is sending out the distress signal  and then they show the interior of the ship with bodies lying everywhere, one of his Children is walking through the carnage saying that they should rejoice, because that was Thanos' way of showing mercy. A quick death, as opposed to what he was doing and had done to Nebula; literally pulling her apart in an effort to get Gamora to reveal the location of the last stone, and before that gradually replacing her human(ish) body with cybernetic parts to 'improve' her. Make her more like Gamora, who I think does (did) love him, even though he's monstrous and psychopathic and genocidal. That it turns out he doesn't think she's relevant enough to kill permanently doesn't undo what's already happened, IMO.  In the first Guardians movie, Nebula told Ronan that if he killed Thanos, she'd help him destroy a thousand planets, but while her entire arc has been about how much she hates him, I don't think she ever really hated her sister, no matter how many times they'd fought and her attacking Gamora repeatedly. To say that family is complicated in the MCU is putting it mildly, and I think in Thanos' twisted mind he thinks what he feels for Gamora is fatherly love. Again, psychopath, and I think him taking Gamora when she was still a little kid has a lot to do with how she still felt about him. She didn't have anyone left by the time he was done, and like Peter with Yondu she had to cleave to him if she wanted to live. JMO.

That's nice and all but not my point. My problems were purely about the retcon of her backstory (to me anyway). Additionally the stupidity forced on her character. And what I perceive as out of character for her. And don't get me started on the fridging.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Smad

[Raja]

7 hours ago, morakot said:

Nitpicky question: if Steve and his team were traveling around the globe doing something (it was not clear to me quite what that was) that resulted in them looking sad, ungroomed, and raggedy, how did they get the jet, and how did they pay for jet fuel?

 

6 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Per the Prelude comic tie in, Steve, Natasha and Sam (and apparently also Wanda, with apparently Vision's knowledge), have been going all over the world tracking down and retrieving any alien tech that is being used for nefarious purposes.  I believe that quinjet is the one that Steve and Bucky left Siberia in after Civil War and it seems a fair assumption that T'Challa has been funding and supporting them.  Though since Sam didn't seem to know that, I am also assuming Steve has kept that to a minimum (and Natasha would also likely have resources they could use), especially since he wouldn't want to put T'Challa and Wakanda at risk.  They are still trying as much as possible to stay under the radar of the world's governments, which is probably also why Steve hid his visits to Bucky in Wakanda.   

And if you want to bring in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. continuity when Nick Fury  went dark after faking his death in The Winter Soldier he had seemingly unlimited hidden S.H.I.E.L.D.  assets  to distribute., Phil Coulson had access to that for the then vigilante S.H.I.E.L.D. organization.. In Age Of Ultron somehow the helicarrier damaged in the Battle Of New York was repaired, fueled and manned. The TV show says that was being managed by Coulson  and in  the movie there was no evidence of who did but it seemed a surprise to Stark  despite Maria Hill  who also was aboard had started working for Stark at the end of Winter Soldier.. Beyond driving around with Maria Hill, Fury must have done something with his time before the snapture.

[Wynterwolf]

3 minutes ago, Raja said:

And if you want to bring in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. continuity when Nick Fury  went dark after faking his death in The Winter Soldier he had seemingly unlimited hidden S.H.I.E.L.D.  assets  to distribute.,

Another good possibility, though I think if they'd been in contact with Nick, they would have looped him in sooner about what was going on.  But since they were doing this for two years, they probably had developed other resources along the way as well... maybe we'll get that fleshed out a bit in Part II. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

21 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Another good possibility, though I think if they'd been in contact with Nick, they would have looped him in sooner about what was going on.  But since they were doing this for two years, they probably had developed other resources along the way as well... maybe we'll get that fleshed out a bit in Part II. 

I would think that most of them have assets and resources they can tap into, with the possible exception of Vision. Steve had his own apartment in WS, and Sam was living somewhere since he'd gotten out of the armed forces and was a civilian again. Natasha's probably got one or two (or eight or nine) offshore accounts only she knows about, and Wanda was managing to go to Scotland and wherever to see Vision on the sly in between missions. When Rhodey makes the comment about them looking like crap, they were pretty fresh out of a fight to protect Wanda and Vision, and Sam says something about the accommodations not exactly being five star, but I don't think it was clear how long it had been since they'd seen Rhodey, or how long he'd been done with physical therapy come to that. Tony tells Bruce that he and Steve hadn't spoken in two years, so it seems unlikely that Rhodey would have involved himself any more than he had to.

[Raja]

55 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I would think that most of them have assets and resources they can tap into, with the possible exception of Vision. Steve had his own apartment in WS, and Sam was living somewhere since he'd gotten out of the armed forces and was a civilian again. Natasha's probably got one or two (or eight or nine) offshore accounts only she knows about, and Wanda was managing to go to Scotland and wherever to see Vision on the sly in between missions. When Rhodey makes the comment about them looking like crap, they were pretty fresh out of a fight to protect Wanda and Vision, and Sam says something about the accommodations not exactly being five star, but I don't think it was clear how long it had been since they'd seen Rhodey, or how long he'd been done with physical therapy come to that. Tony tells Bruce that he and Steve hadn't spoken in two years, so it seems unlikely that Rhodey would have involved himself any more than he had to.

We are talking jet fuel and safe houses. Maybe Black Widow has old contacts but a soldier's condo, even in DC as a financial assett isn't funding more than one load of fuel 

[Wynterwolf]

18 minutes ago, Raja said:

We are talking jet fuel and safe houses.

Yeah, I can see T'Challa mostly funding the fuel and big ticket supplies (Steve did mention to T'Challa that he was always thanking him for something), but I would bet that both Natasha and Bucky (and maybe even Clint, because you know Nat kept in contact with him) had plenty of places already set up all over the world that they would have been able to use as safe houses, which would include weapons and ammo, but they definitely wouldn't have been 5-star accommodations.  ;-D

Edited May 22, 2018 by Wynterwolf

[Cobalt Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, Raja said:

We are talking jet fuel and safe houses. Maybe Black Widow has old contacts but a soldier's condo, even in DC as a financial assett isn't funding more than one load of fuel 

Point taken, since I was mostly thinking of monetary matters. Although since Fury was the one who arranged for Clint to have a place only Natasha knew about, I could see him having a hand in helping Team Cap hide out if T'Challa was providing funds. Both she and Clint spent years being half off the grid, and although Stark meant it as an insult I think that old-school spy stuff is something neither of them have entirely left behind.

[JessePinkman]

Really in-depth interview with Markus and McFeely, the writers behind IW.

 

Here's what stood out to be the most:

• Sharon was in some early drafts (she and Steve adjusting to being a couple or something) but they decided that anyone and anything not essential to the A-plot had to be taken out.
• Some characters death took longer to take because...drum roll...dramatic effect.
• The initial screenings didn't get a favorable response, which they expected due to the downer ending, luckily they'd already decided to add the Captain Marvel tag to give the film a sense of hope.
• Nate Moore, Marvel producer extraordinaire, advised them to be sure to include Shuri because he could tell from Black Panther dailies (BP and IW filmed at the same time) that she was going to "pop". 
• They always intended to bring back Red Skull in some form or fashion, they pushed for it even when told it was a bridge too far.
• They discussed showing the Netflix heroes but couldn't figure out a way that would satisfy fans of those characters and people who have no idea who they are. This was a celebration of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

And they said a bunch more nerdy things, interesting interview.

[VCRTracking]

8 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

Really in-depth interview with Markus and McFeely, the writers behind IW.

 

 

I was just about to post that! Started watching right now.

[Kel Varnsen]

16 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Point taken, since I was mostly thinking of monetary matters. Although since Fury was the one who arranged for Clint to have a place only Natasha knew about, I could see him having a hand in helping Team Cap hide out if T'Challa was providing funds. Both she and Clint spent years being half off the grid, and although Stark meant it as an insult I think that old-school spy stuff is something neither of them have entirely left behind.

Yea the ex-spy with a bunch of safety deposit boxes full of cash or storage lockers full of supplies hidden around the world or important contacts that owe them favours is a pretty standard plot devices.

[VCRTracking]

I really wish I could read the conversation the screenwriters wrote between Peter Parker and Natasha in the early drafts. That's what I wondered about too when I watched Civil War. A wide-eyed, naive, enthusiastic kid meeting this hardened, world-weary spy who's done some terrible things in her past.

[Wynterwolf]

That was an interesting interview, but one of the things I found most interesting is that there weren't a lot of surprises in it, so I think they did a good job of getting what they wanted and intended on screen. 

I had actually wondered if TeamTony would have been able to really win if they'd gotten the gauntlet off Thanos, and they are saying that it probably wouldn't have made a difference (so Quill really didn't change much, and maybe Tony would have been more badly hurt if he hadn't messed their plan up) and that Thanos probably still could have beaten Hulk even without the Power stone.

There is additional filming in September, so... they still could (and probably will) tweak stuff.

They never had any intention of having Clint in IW, so they were always going to save his transformation for A4. 

And even though they were still jokey about it, at least they didn't come across (to me) as condescending about Steve and Bucky as a potentially romantic relationship, but I do think they were a little disingenuous comparing fans who want Steve and Bucky to kiss and fans that want Steve and Sharon... I think there's a lot more fan traction for Steve and Nat (or even Steve and Tony) than there is for Sharon.  Sharon is just the only one he's had any overt physical scenes with (I'm not counting the kissing with Nat because of the context of the scene).   (eta: also not including Peggy in this, because she's not part of this storyline) 

Edited May 22, 2018 by Wynterwolf

[Cobalt Stargazer]

MCU Fans: "The movies are terrible at presenting romantic relationships and should just focus on inter-team friendships!"

Also MCU Fans: "The movies should totally let Steve and Bucky get together....even though the movies are terrible at presenting romantic relationships!"

[HunterHunted]

3 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

They discussed showing the Netflix heroes but couldn't figure out a way that would satisfy fans of those characters and people who have no idea who they are. This was a celebration of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

I feel Jessica Jones is always the one to show because her apathy and cynicism are completely understandable even if you don't know who she is. It could have been as simple as somebody getting thrown into a bar during the New York fight where Jessica is day drinking. She's not going to help just because she's Jessica. However, more than anything trying to show the Netflix heroes disrupts the momentum of the film. So as much as I would have loved to see Luke Cage helping rescue people from the buildings the Black Order destroyed, I don't think the movie could handle even brief cameos like that.

Characters who we've spent the better part of 10 years getting to know got short shrift. Cap was shafted. Black Panther was shafted. Black Widow got a wry smile with Bruce and the world's briefest "yay girl power" scene to conclude her MCU arc. Gamora had a real arc. Tony had a real arc. Thor, Rocket, and Groot had a real arc. Wanda and Vision too. Bucky may have helped split the Avengers in 2, but it's cool he's a got a new arm, the Wakandans seem to trust him, and there's nary a question from the remaining members of Team Iron Man about Heather's Bucky's better. I liked the film, but it had far too many characters and some just didn't get their due. I can see how they couldn't be able to fit the Netflix characters.

[Wynterwolf]

Quote

MCU Fans: "The movies are terrible at presenting romantic relationships and should just focus on inter-team friendships!"

Also MCU Fans: "The movies should totally let Steve and Bucky get together....even though the movies are terrible at presenting romantic relationships!"

Heh, I think one of the reasons Steve and Bucky actually work as a romantic relationship for a lot of fans is because they aren't trying to write a "romantic relationship", they're just trying to write about two characters that love each other.  

Edited May 22, 2018 by Wynterwolf