S03.E12: The Bakra

[Athena]

Quote

The Artemis finally reaches Jamaica bringing Jamie and Claire that much closer to their goal. During a lavish ball on the island, the Frasers encounter old allies, as well as former adversaries who threaten to derail their mission.

Reminder: This is the No Book Talk topic. No discussion of the books is allowed including saying "in the books..." Book readers are discouraged from posting and liking in this thread. Posts may be removed without warning.

[Glade]

WOW!  I had been spoiled with the bare fact that Geilis would return--but I kept imagining it happening in Scotland, and being this healing, reflective encounter...I see now that's impossible, because Geilis is more psychotic then ever.  She's Elizabeth Bathory, and also likes 'young boys.'  I don't know what's creepier, that opening scene or the way she spiraled into that bizzare dialogue when meeting Claire...there was certainly no intimacy there. 

I kept wanting Claire to make some mention of being there in 1968, of meeting the first husband she killed (it sounds like she murdered her third husband as well) and Bree and Roger...to actually reference the time travel, and why Geilis didn't go back herself (maybe she thought she would be a murder suspect?  If she heard someone calling her name before she went through the stones, she wouldn't imagine that it was a 'friend' who wouldn't tell the police that she was there at the place where her husband was burned alive...)

There's still so much to be said, and holy fuck the preview for next week's episode was explosive; there's another Craig Na Dune circle right there in Jaimaca?  Are there others all over the world then?  That prophecy frightens me...we know Geilis would go back through the stones two hundred years into the future and commit infanticide if she thought it would work.  And the prophecy didn't even mention Brexit!  It's beyond disturbing that Geilis still wouldn't even admit to having Young Ian, even when she got what she wanted, the three sapphires joined together...I don't think that was goats blood she bathes in.  I wonder if she really believes that Dougal died a hero on the battlefield?  And if she really thinks she wouldn't have just killed him as well if he survived?

It was also thrilling meeting Lord John again, though also very sad for him.  His lover who fell at Culloden hasn't come back, but Claire has and not only that, he also has to see Jaime with the love of his life.  Very awkward conversations between Lord John and Claire, she obviously feels the tension of his feelings for Jaime.  But it seems obvious that Jaime and Claire should have gone to Lord John once Captain Leonard showed up; surely as the governor he outranks Captain Leanord and can stop it.  

This episode just brought everything from the season together in such a dramatic and satisfying way!  That moment of reflection between Claire and Jaime when the music swelled up...just magic, and Fergus/Marseli and Mr. Willoughby and the fortune teller woman's scenes were also just perfect.

Claire's visit to the slave market and her visceral reaction to the man being sexually violated on-stage was so powerful.  I had my doubts at the end of the episode though; if he'll really safely make it up to the escaped slaves camp in the mountains; I hope so!

The amount of payoff we got this episode was staggering; waiting a whole season or even longer in the case of Geillis.  I hope we get a 2-hour finale next week to wrap all of this up.

[leighdear]

So Geilis mentioned "Benjamin Button", which was released in 2008.  So that's at least 3 times she's traveled "through the stones".  And we now know the time travel doesn't have to happen in Scotland, but there are other "doorways".  At least we're learning the rules of the time jumps.   

Too bad Willie wasn't in the island with John.  It would have been nice for Jamie to see him again.

They should have used a model with nicer feet for the scene where she was toying with young Ian after her bath.  The actress has very unattractive and gigantic feet!  *LOL*

So next week is the season finale?

Edited December 3, 2017 by leighdear

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Awwww, I was so happy to see Willoughby and Margaret connect. I want a happy ending for them.

Bonus: we got to see both Geillis and John Grey! I loved seeing them for different reasons. I know Geillis is a shit stirring trouble maker but she is so entertaining, especially in small doses. Heh and I could practically see the cartoon hearts shooting out of John's eyes every time he was near Jamie.

For the record, that goat blood is doing its job. Geillis looked really young, like ridiculously youthful. They're lucky that Lotte Verbeek was a dancer because she knows exactly how to move her body. She made that creepy blood bath sensual with the shapes she made with her body.

Although I'm not a Fergus/Marsali shipper, it's nice to see that she really is into him and that marrying him wasn't just some scheme.

While I get that a 20th century woman like Claire is horrified by seeing slavery, I was rolling my eyes when she told Jamie to "do something" and then she was shocked, SHOCKED I TELL YOU, that he bought the slave in question. What else did she think he could possibly do to help? Have a polite word with the slave traders? I don't know why letting him run to the escaped slaves' camp in the mountains was considered the best choice. If anyone finds him, he doesn't have any papers so he can be captured and sold again. I'm not sure if he would want to go to Europe though, so maybe this was the preferable option.

14 minutes ago, leighdear said:

So Geilis mentioned "Benjamin Button", which was released in 2008.  So that's at least 3 times she's traveled "through the stones".

The movie was based on a short story of the same name by F. Scott Fitzgerald (first published in Collier's in 1922 and later included in Tales of the Jazz Age) so she may have been referring to that, not the movie.

Quote

They should have used a model with nicer feet for the scene where she was toying with young Ian after her bath.  The actress has very unattractive and gigantic feet!

Unattractive feet are the price you pay for ballet! But I don't care about attractive feet. I'd rather have them use her real feet than do something as pointless as hire a foot model for two seconds of weird foot face rubing. I'm always in favor of showing actors' real bodies (unless they're uncomfortable with it).

Edited December 3, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, leighdear said:

So Geilis mentioned "Benjamin Button", which was released in 2008.

I believe the movie was based on a short story written by F. Scott Fitzgerald that was written and published sometime in the 1920s.

[leighdear]

Ok, that makes more sense that she was referring to the story.  The only Fitzgerald I ever read was of course, Gatsby, and I didn't like it enough to continue reading his other works.  

And John SERIOUSLY made his continuing love for Jamie so obvious.  But as the heart wants what the heart wants, he's stuck and I have a lot of sympathy for him.  Excellent acting all around.  

[nara]

Geillis F-ing Duncan!  That was a twist.   (But why is her hair now blonde?) I am so glad to have her back.   Can she please have brought Mrs. Fitz with her as her cook?  I really loved her.

And Lotte Verbeek is a good sport, handling the blood bath with finesse.  I'm glad she clarified if was goat's blood.

Also nice to see Lord John Grey again so soon.  I am not a Jamie/John shipper, but I thought the sexual tension was crackling in the scene where they reunited.  Of course, it will be handy to have a governor friend who can pardon Jamie and end the fugitive status forever...or at least until he and Claire inevitably get involved in the American Revolution or the French Revolution.

Glad we saw the point of the preacher and his sister.  predicting a future romance between Willoughby and the sister.

A lot of coincidences of meeting people again.  Or perhaps the point is that souls are linked to each other.

The slave market was hard to watch, but not nearly as graphic as it could have been.  Very thankful for that.  Was that slave trader really going to jerk off the slave (whose name I could not follow) in public?  I'm glad Claire stopped it.  And I thought her shock at becoming a slave owner to be pretty normal.  It's something she never thought she would ever be.

As for the prophecy, clearly Brianna must be the 200 year old baby--right?  She was conceived in the 18th century and born in the 20th.  And they cannot just forget about Claire and Jamie's daughter.   I wonder if Claire will go back to the future to rescue her at some point.  Perhaps as a season finale?

I want Fergus and Marsali to have a storyline!!!

[BitterApple]

Wow, this was an awesome episode! I feel like it redeemed so many of the clunkers we've seen in Season 3.

Lord John Grey is smoking hot and damned if I'm not giddy to see him back on my tv screen. The awkwardness between Jaime, Claire and John during the office scene was hilarious. 

The scene with Willoughby and Margaret got me right in the feels and I'm praying Willoughby can get her away from her shady brother and Geillis.  Speaking of which, holy hell! I was not expecting her to reappear in Jamaica! My prediction: Claire figures out Brianna is the 200 year-old baby in question and kills Geillis in the cave to prevent Geillis from traveling through the stones and killing her. It's Geillis' skeleton that ends up in the lab in Boston. 

I too was bummed we didn't get to see Jaime reunite with Willie, but I guess there's no point when Jaime can't really ever be a father to him anyways.

Marsali is starting to grow on me. I figured she'd be a whiny, spoiled brat, but quelle surprise, she's a team player!

The only thing that annoyed me was Claire being rude and dismissive to the man who bought her the umbrella. He stated he'd bought it so she'd blend in, which you'd think would be a priority for her considering she and her husband were wanted by Captain Leonard. When in Rome, Claire....

I cannot freaking wait for this season finale. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by BitterApple

[Empressv]

The blood bath was an amazing visual, and Lotte made the most of it! Really well done.

That moment when Margaret really opened her eyes during the Lord John fortune telling scene was creepy as hell. 

Every time I see the actress playing Marsali, I think what a dynamite job they did casting her. Not only is she bringing that character to life, she actually looks enough like the actress playing Laoghaire to be related. 

[terrymct]

23 hours ago, leighdear said:

So Geilis mentioned "Benjamin Button", which was released in 2008.  So that's at least 3 times she's traveled "through the stones".  And we now know the time travel doesn't have to happen in Scotland, but there are other "doorways".  At least we're learning the rules of the time jumps.   

 

The movie was based on a short story that was released in 1922, so she could have conceivably read it during the 60's.

I'm happy to see Geilis back overall as she can be interesting, but her first scene was frickin ridiculous.  It was like something from an Anne Rice novel and way out of place.

It was also nice to see the brother and sister from Edinburgh, especially since the sister and Mr Willowby appear to be heading toward a couple.

The best part of this episode, however, was Claire and Jamie unintentionally ending up buying a slave.  They showed a bit of the horror of the slave market, but better yet, the writers opened a route into the African community on the island.  Not just the enslaved Africans, but it looks like they're going to bring in the Maroons, African people who escaped slavery and lived in free communities up in the mountains.  I'm a little worried, however, based on glimpses in the previews about the show's ability to show the Maroon culture without ending up putting something on the screen straight out of movies like Live and Let Die.

[Otherkate]

This was one of my favorite episodes of the season. For me, this show works much, much better when there's a plot going on that is about more than Jamie and Claire's great romance and when the supporting characters have a lot to do. Loved. 

So nice to see Gellis again, ridiculous blood scene aside. Honestly, I couldn't get over the fact that she hadn't gotten all the blood off of her - she needed at least 2 more pitchers of water. Hah. But, I love watching her and am welcoming the whole Scottish king plot she seems to be bringing us. I also just love that Gellis and Claire have this whole time travel thing in common. 

My favorite scenes were anything with Lord John, Claire, Jamie and the Great Awkwardness of WTF Is Going On Here, Sirs? Am really enjoying the friendship of Jamie and Lord John again and Claire's utter confusion over the whole thing. Hope we get more of him. 

Am also digging Marsali which is an unexpected turn of events.

22 hours ago, nara said:

As for the prophecy, clearly Brianna must be the 200 year old baby--right?  She was conceived in the 18th century and born in the 20th.  And they cannot just forget about Claire and Jamie's daughter.   I wonder if Claire will go back to the future to rescue her at some point.  Perhaps as a season finale?

Oh lord. As much as I know that there needs to be more Brianna in this story, I'm totally dreading if it happens because of that actress. 

[terrymct]

7 minutes ago, Otherkate said:

This was one of my favorite episodes of the season. For me, this show works much, much better when there's a plot going on that is about more than Jamie and Claire's great romance and when the supporting characters have a lot to do. Loved. 

So nice to see Gellis again, ridiculous blood scene aside. Honestly, I couldn't get over the fact that she hadn't gotten all the blood off of her - she needed at least 2 more pitchers of water. Hah. But, I love watching her and am welcoming the whole Scottish king plot she seems to be bringing us. I also just love that Gellis and Claire have this whole time travel thing in common. 

My favorite scenes were anything with Lord John, Claire, Jamie and the Great Awkwardness of WTF Is Going On Here, Sirs? Am really enjoying the friendship of Jamie and Lord John again and Claire's utter confusion over the whole thing. Hope we get more of him. 

Am also digging Marsali which is an unexpected turn of events.

Oh lord. As much as I know that there needs to be more Brianna in this story, I'm totally dreading if it happens because of that actress. 

 

I agree completely.  The supporting characters are consistently MUCH more interesting than Claire and Jamie.

I suspect that the 200 yr old baby has to be Brianna, but how does her birth in the 1950's bring a Scot to the throne?   Queen Elizabeth's mother was raised in Glamis Castle (been there, very much worth visiting, gorgeous) in Angus, Scotland.  The Queen Mother was born in London, if I recall correctly.  Spending a good bit of your childhood in a Scottish castle doesn't necessarily make one a Scot.   It wouldn't make her daughter, Queen Elizabeth, a Scot either.

[BitterApple]

If I understood it correctly, I thought it was her death that brought a Scottish king to the throne? We know that doesn't happen, so Brianna can't die. I have to rewatch, because Margaret's jumbled way of speaking is hard to interpret.

[terrymct]

30 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

If I understood it correctly, I thought it was her death that brought a Scottish king to the throne? We know that doesn't happen, so Brianna can't die. I have to rewatch, because Margaret's jumbled way of speaking is hard to interpret.

I'm sure you're right and I had it mixed up.

Maybe Brianna travels back through the stones which would result in her technically being dead in the 1960's timeline?  I've long since stopped expecting anything on this show to make sense.  Black Jack is likely to show up on the next ship out of the blue.

[ganesh]

On 12/3/2017 at 0:59 AM, Glade said:

WOW!  I had been spoiled with the bare fact that Geilis would return--but I kept imagining it happening in Scotland, and being this healing, reflective encounter...I see now that's impossible, because Geilis is more psychotic then ever.  She's Elizabeth Bathory, and also likes 'young boys.'  I don't know what's creepier, that opening scene or the way she spiraled into that bizzare dialogue when meeting Claire...there was certainly no intimacy there. 

I was not spoiled and screamed when she appeared. I was talking about the show needing more bonkers. Well, bonkers is bathing in goat's blood and then having sex with young Ian. Oh, I was dying: "I'm not a virgin." *opens robe* "Then you know what to do." cue theme. 

The governor seemed happy to see Jamie though. Geewiz, everyone likes my sapphire! *swoons at Jamie*

On 12/3/2017 at 6:54 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

While I get that a 20th century woman like Claire is horrified by seeing slavery, I was rolling my eyes when she told Jamie to "do something" and then she was shocked, SHOCKED I TELL YOU, that he bought the slave in question. What else did she think he could possibly do to help? Have a polite word with the slave traders? I don't know why letting him run to the escaped slaves' camp in the mountains was considered the best choice.

That whole sequence bugged. Typical Claire though. It's bothersome how Claire doesn't have any context of the times. What are you going to do, end slavery? I mean, go for it, but be strategic about it. 

Are we supposed to believe the psychic is actually real? I thought when Claire visited her that she thought she was just mentally ill. 

On 12/3/2017 at 8:38 AM, nara said:

As for the prophecy, clearly Brianna must be the 200 year old baby--right?  She was conceived in the 18th century and born in the 20th.

This was my first thought. It's the only way the tie the two time periods together. 

The show is infinitely better with the threat of time travel hijinks written all over it. 

I have to say though, given that this was the most exciting episode of the season, TPTBs need to do better executing the overall story. Honestly, much of this season was filler. 

[Bizabra]

Benjamin button was written by F. Scott Fitzgerald in 1922. So, that does not indicate Geillis ever came back after she went through in 1968.

 

EDIT: heh, reminder to self to read all the posts before posting, as many others pointed this little factoid out before I did! 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Bizabra

[Swiss]

  Enjoyed the episode.  Poor Sam..not a good look in that wig.  His hair for most of this entire season has been just awful.    However...David Berry is gorgeous!  Was glad to see him back.   Did I mention he's gorgeous??

Edited December 5, 2017 by Swiss

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I watched this sometime mid-morning Sunday and since it's now two days later, I'm sure I'm forgetting about something (before I go read the other comments).  Briefly:

• That was a heck of lot of blood in that sunken bath.  She drain a whole herd of goats?  I know it was fake blood, but kudos to the actress for the scene.  Ew.
• But would Ian have not immediately seen her head in the blood pool?  He was sitting right in front of it and looking all around like he didn't notice her until her leg went up.  Riiiight....
• Marsali and Fergus were kind of annoying, tbh.  I think they were supposed to be 'cute in love like when Jamie and Claire were younger' but it just didn't work for me.  Probably because I still don't like Marsali, I'm sure. 
• I don't think the Captain of the Porpoise could just barge into the governor's ball and start looking for one of his guests to arrest.  1. He didn't have an arrest warrant.  2. I'm pretty sure the Governor would be in charge of issuing said warrant.  3. - and maybe even most importantly, the Governor is the highest law on the island.  So...Captain Idiot has no authority there without the Gov's say so.
• Claire: "I can't believe this woman - who's apparently a serial killer because I know she murdered two husbands; one in the past-past at Castle Leoch and another in the past-future year of 1968 - would lie to me!"  Really, Claire?  Stick to doctoring, honey. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 12/3/2017 at 2:59 AM, Glade said:

 And the prophecy didn't even mention Brexit! 

Probably a limitation of the source material, since I think it originated well before Brexit. 

On 12/3/2017 at 8:43 AM, leighdear said:

They should have used a model with nicer feet for the scene where she was toying with young Ian after her bath.  The actress has very unattractive and gigantic feet!  *LOL*

Aw...I thought her feet were fine.  They didn't look overly huge to me anyway.  ::shrug::

[StrictTime]

Will someone remind me of the storyline surrounding Gellis in 1968?  I seem to have some sort of amnesia about this character.  I barely remember her.

[ganesh]

Brianna was wandering around the University and heard Gellis talking about Scottish independence. I think Claire was like "oh damn" and went to visit her to learn more. She ended up killing her husband to trigger the stones and ran through. Claire, ever the humanitarian was gushing about how she could get back to Jamie before the body was even cold. 

I still don't get how Gellis left in 1968 but appeared years before Claire, and then Roger was like, time runs the same. Clearly not. 

[nara]

I hope we see Geillis’s reaction when she realizes that if she had just stayed in the 1960’s she could have had a chance to kill Briana and bring about the prophecy. Of course, she would never have known about it.

[terrymct]

11 hours ago, ganesh said:

Brianna was wandering around the University and heard Gellis talking about Scottish independence. I think Claire was like "oh damn" and went to visit her to learn more. She ended up killing her husband to trigger the stones and ran through. Claire, ever the humanitarian was gushing about how she could get back to Jamie before the body was even cold. 

I still don't get how Gellis left in 1968 but appeared years before Claire, and then Roger was like, time runs the same. Clearly not. 

 

Isn't there some sort of hooey about carrying a gem stone through the stones lets you steer yourself to a certain time?   It's a big old dues ex machina dumped in when the writer(s) came to the point where a person would want to steer themselves, I think.

[ganesh]

Clearly, Gellis is interested in the sapphires for some reason related to the stones. I only vaguely recall something about gemstones. Claire doesn't seem to need them. 

[AAEBoiler]

I enjoyed the creepiness of some of the background music. The low, eeries strings were very reminiscent of "Hannibal".

[piequinn35]

On 12/3/2017 at 10:52 AM, BitterApple said:

Lord John Grey is smoking hot and damned if I'm not giddy to see him back on my tv screen. The awkwardness between Jaime, Claire and John during the office scene was hilarious. 

Claire interrupting while John was speechless and just staring at Jamie was damn, yup Claire stick to doctoring lmao.

And nice to see Geillis again.

I didn't see that coming.

[tennisgurl]

Oh snap, its Gellis! And she`s the Witch of Rose Hall, apparently! I knew that Gellis was scary after she killed her husband back in the 60s, but she has gone full Bathory at this point, and I kind of love it. That blood bath was something else, wasn't it? Poor young Ian. I greatly fear for his health with her around, and I cant say I`m totally sure I believe that the blood was all animal...

Also coming back, Lord John! Lord John is significantly less creepy, but equally sexy, so it was nice to see him again, especially now that Jaime and Claire are in trouble (again) and maybe he can pull some strings. Claire's expressions throughout their scenes, with John clearly giving Jaime heart eyes, was pretty hilarious. Did Jaime tell Claire that his buddy John had a MASSIVE crush on him? And is apparently still hung up on him. Come on, Claire, put two and two together. Your from the 60s! 

Speaking of, I appreciate that Claire wants to help people and fight injustice, and that slave market was quite horrifying, but Claire seriously needs to stop making huge scenes everywhere! She cant run around fighting every injustice she finds, she`s just one person against an entire system. Not that one person cant make a difference, but she has a ton of other crap to deal with already, she doesn't really have much time to fight the entire institution of slavery. Granted, it worked out well here, but only because Jaime covered things up. Maybe just buy the guy and free him to start with, without the dramatics? That being said, what she was witnessing was pretty freaking awful, so who I am I judge? 

Looks like the psychic lady is actually for real, which I suppose shouldn't surprise me very much. We`ve already established magic time traveling stones exist, so why not more weird stuff we just haven't come across yet? I hope she runs off with Mr. Weatherby, her brother is a huge dickhead. 

This was a really good episode, even if Jamie and Claire got separated again. Its like they need to plant GPS trackers on each other.

[jqdeco]

tennisgurl, your comment on Jamie and Claire needing GPS trackers made me laugh!  So true! 

I love Gellis. She is so nutty. Did anyone catch that she is an Abernathy (same last name and Claire's friend Joe from the 60's) and a comment by someone that she normally likes the "negros".  Is she looking to get pregnant and is that how the Abernathy lineage continues? 

Loved the smoldering look between Jamie and Claire while waiting to meet the governor. 

I don't get the love for Lord John.  He just doesn't do anything for me.

[Adira]

23 hours ago, terrymct said:

 

Isn't there some sort of hooey about carrying a gem stone through the stones lets you steer yourself to a certain time?   It's a big old dues ex machina dumped in when the writer(s) came to the point where a person would want to steer themselves, I think.

 

22 hours ago, ganesh said:

Clearly, Gellis is interested in the sapphires for some reason related to the stones. I only vaguely recall something about gemstones. Claire doesn't seem to need them. 

You do need a gemstone to go through the stones.  I forget which gemstone Claire had the first time around, but remember how she said she used the gemstone from Jamie's ring (Jamie's father's ring?) on her return trip?  Then before she went back to Jamie, when she was having Christmas with Brianna and Roger, they gave her a necklace with a gemstone to use to go through the stones again.

[nara]

3 hours ago, jqdeco said:

 

I love Gellis. She is so nutty. Did anyone catch that she is an Abernathy (same last name and Claire's friend Joe from the 60's) and a comment by someone that she normally likes the "negros".  Is she looking to get pregnant and is that how the Abernathy lineage continues? 

 

Great catch on Abernathy! I completely missed it. That, combined with the idea that the bones Joe examined were those of Geillis, opens up some interesting possibilities. It would be great if Joe were a bigger character than he appeared to have been. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Adira said:

 

You do need a gemstone to go through the stones.  I forget which gemstone Claire had the first time around, but remember how she said she used the gemstone from Jamie's ring (Jamie's father's ring?) on her return trip?  Then before she went back to Jamie, when she was having Christmas with Brianna and Roger, they gave her a necklace with a gemstone to use to go through the stones again.

There was a retcon (imo, it was a retcon, since it was not established in either S1 or S2, as far as I remember) that Claire lost her diamond watch the first trip through the stones to the past.  I do remember the pilot, and that her watch was missing - but there was never any mention of it being a diamond watch previously afair.

3 hours ago, jqdeco said:

Loved the smoldering look between Jamie and Claire while waiting to meet the governor.

Yes, I did love this bit.  But upon further reflection, the whole "reminds me of us" dialogue from Claire about Fergus and Marsali didn't ring true to me.  Because, really - how often did we the viewers ever see Jamie and Claire being all lovely dovey in the past?  A couple glimpses in one, maybe two episodes in S1 after their marriage before things went to crap?  I'm not counting the wedding night.  There was one before the witch trial when they were still out on the road when another clan attacked them.  Then they had the falling out.  So another after they reconciled right before Jamie got shipped off with Dougal.  Oh, there was another brief one at Lallybroch before Jamie disappeared with the Watch.  So three.  I can only think of one brief scene when they were at Lallybroch after the potato harvest from S2.   One.  The rest of S2 was angst and PTSD (not that I disagree there should have been PTSD) and war.  But I sure don't remember a lot of "look, that's how we were too" moments. 

Will someone remind (tell) me what the prophecy actually was?  I admit to not having rewatched the ep and zoning out a bit during that part as Margaret's speech was just kind of jumbled nonsense to me.  I thought she just said that there wouldn't be another king of Scotland for 200 years - which is obviously wrong.  Why does it maybe pertain to Brianna? 

[BitterApple]

11 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Oh Not that one person cant make a difference, but she has a ton of other crap to deal with already, she doesn't really have much time to fight the entire institution of slavery

Lulz! I guess it wouldn't be Outlander if Claire wasn't Mary Sue-ing her way through an episode!

Regarding the prophecy, this is my best interpretation: Margaret told Geillis a Scottish King would return to the throne upon the death of a baby who was already 200 years old on the day of his/her birth. Since Briana was conceived in the 1740's, yet born in the 1940's, she's the baby in question, although Geillis doesn't know it yet. 

I think Geillis was initially thrown off because what Margaret said sounded like complete gibberish, but given that she herself is a time traveler and she knows Claire is a time traveler, she's going to connect the dots very quickly. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by BitterApple

[ganesh]

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Maybe just buy the guy and free him to start with, without the dramatics?

Would that even help though? The one free guy would be harassed all the time anyway. 

11 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Looks like the psychic lady is actually for real, which I suppose shouldn't surprise me very much.

I don't have a problem if she is for real, but it's not clear to me that she actually is. When Claire visited them in Scotland, I read it as she being just mentally ill and spouting nonsense. I mean, she didn't say "200 y/o baby", the brother kind of 'interpreted it.' Though I suppose it's irrelevant if everyone does think she's legit. 

4 hours ago, jqdeco said:

I don't get the love for Lord John.  He just doesn't do anything for me.

I think it's just that he's one of the few people in the past that isn't a huge jerk, and it's kind of tragic that he'll never be able to live openly. Plus, post-Collodeon, he's like the only actual friend Jamie has. 

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Will someone remind (tell) me what the prophecy actually was?  I admit to not having rewatched the ep and zoning out a bit during that part as Margaret's speech was just kind of jumbled nonsense to me.  I thought she just said that there wouldn't be another king of Scotland for 200 years - which is obviously wrong.  Why does it maybe pertain to Brianna? 

I think it was that a 200 y/o baby has to be sacrificed before a king can claim the throne of Scotland. This was the brother's interpretation. Gellis wasn't so pleased because she remarked that a 200 y/o baby is kind of a ridiculous thing to say. Nothing about who the king would be iirc. 

I'm all for racing against time to change history plots even if history can't be changed, and this one is patently nuts which is what I've been waiting for. 

[terrymct]

19 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Regarding the prophecy, this is my best interpretation: Margaret told Geillis a Scottish King would return to the throne upon the death of a baby who was already 200 years old on the day of his/her birth. Since Briana was conceived in the 1740's, yet born in the 1940's, she's the baby in question, although Geillis doesn't know it yet. 

My guess is still that they'll try to torque Queen Elizabeth II into being Scottish via her mother, but two things are wrong with that (including the tenuous Scottish linkage).  Does the prophesy specifically say King or was there some kind of wiggling that could mean either gender?  Second, we've already seen Brianna living into the 1960's so Elizabeth was already firmly on the throne by then.   Does Brianna get up to some time travel, then dies?  Maybe she jumps back to when King Jame VI/I?  No, that would be way to convoluted.  It seems difficult to get a true died in the wool Scot on the throne in the lifetime of Brianna unless there's some time travel funkiness or they go for an alternate history.

19 hours ago, ganesh said:

I don't have a problem if she is for real, but it's not clear to me that she actually is. When Claire visited them in Scotland, I read it as she being just mentally ill and spouting nonsense. I mean, she didn't say "200 y/o baby", the brother kind of 'interpreted it.' Though I suppose it's irrelevant if everyone does think she's legit. 

 

I think that's why the three sapphires had to be together.  Something about bringing them together and being able to find out when a Scot would sit on the throne.    That's one of those legends/prophesies that doesn't make sense.  How would you know that would happen?  Because you'd brought them together and found out already?  Why keep that to yourself?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, terrymct said:

My guess is still that they'll try to torque Queen Elizabeth II into being Scottish via her mother, but two things are wrong with that (including the tenuous Scottish linkage).  Does the prophesy specifically say King or was there some kind of wiggling that could mean either gender?  Second, we've already seen Brianna living into the 1960's so Elizabeth was already firmly on the throne by then.   Does Brianna get up to some time travel, then dies?  Maybe she jumps back to when King Jame VI/I?  No, that would be way to convoluted.  It seems difficult to get a true died in the wool Scot on the throne in the lifetime of Brianna unless there's some time travel funkiness or they go for an alternate history.

Well, Gellis, or Gillian, was originally alive in the 60's also, so she'd know from first hand experience that Elizabeth was on the throne by then. 

Even if Brianna did some time-traveling too (I don't doubt it, since they introduced the character and I can't see her never coming back into the story) how would her death, even in the past, have anything to do with a Scottish king getting the throne?  Brianna is a nobody.  She's not royalty or Joan of Arc or anything.  So what if she dies back in the past?  Or am I supposed to believe that her death would throw Jamie into such a rage that he would single handedly overthrow the entire British occupation of Scotland?  [see me rolling my eyes.]

[terrymct]

27 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, Gellis, or Gillian, was originally alive in the 60's also, so she'd know from first hand experience that Elizabeth was on the throne by then. 

Even if Brianna did some time-traveling too (I don't doubt it, since they introduced the character and I can't see her never coming back into the story) how would her death, even in the past, have anything to do with a Scottish king getting the throne?  Brianna is a nobody.  She's not royalty or Joan of Arc or anything.  So what if she dies back in the past?  Or am I supposed to believe that her death would throw Jamie into such a rage that he would single handedly overthrow the entire British occupation of Scotland?  [see me rolling my eyes.]

Excellent point.  She'd have to go into the past (or future) and somehow immediately fall into a position related to a potential royal.  Then again, her mother dropped into Scotland and people such as Dougal inexplicably started showing and telling her all sorts of details of the Jacobite rebellion.  Her mother steps off a ship in France, someone gives her a fancy wardrobe, and voila she's at Versailles.   Not much about this show makes sense.  I think we're supposed to ignore all the details and just revel in how darn romantic it is that Claire and Jamie keep getting ripped away from each other and magically finding each other again.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

17 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Excellent point.  She'd have to go into the past (or future) and somehow immediately fall into a position related to a potential royal.  Then again, her mother dropped into Scotland and people such as Dougal inexplicably started showing and telling her all sorts of details of the Jacobite rebellion.  Her mother steps off a ship in France, someone gives her a fancy wardrobe, and voila she's at Versailles. 

Upon further reflection, I think Brianna would have to go back further into the past than where Claire, Jamie & Co are presently.  Gellis knew, as of 1968? '69? that the rebellion of '45 had failed.  I thought Gellis' purpose for going back was to try to change that to prevent the destruction and loss of Scottish culture as a result by having an independent Scotland with its own king.  But in 1765-ish, she knows that, despite her best efforts, she still didn't change the outcome of the uprising and the clan life and a lot of Scottish heritage is destroyed.  As of Gellis' present time in the past (1765-ish) the Highland Clearances have already taken place.  So in order for Brianna (or the prophecy) to have any effect on whether or not Scotland gains its independence without the destruction of its clan culture first, I think Brianna would have to go back to before 1745 and change something that would affect the outcome of the war differently this time.  But since Claire and Jamie (and Gellis) already tried that, I don't see it happening. 

Damn, that's a mess.

28 minutes ago, terrymct said:

 Not much about this show makes sense.  I think we're supposed to ignore all the details and just revel in how darn romantic it is that Claire and Jamie keep getting ripped away from each other and magically finding each other again.  

Yeah, I guess.  It's just rather disappointing to me after how the show in it's first season was touted as so "realistic" and "historically accurate", which is what got me interested in the first place - not magically wonderfully delicious 'romantic' coincidences. 

[BitterApple]

I agree that when you think about it, the illogical scenarios can give you migraines.

From what we've seen, time travel can't change events that have already happened. Geillis must know that because she's alive in 1968 and knows Cullodeon was a failure and QE2 sits on the British throne. So is she hoping that fulfillment of the prophecy in the 1700s means a Scottish King will eventually take over at some point after 1968? Which makes absolutely no sense, I know. Or is there a way to create an alternate timeline? 

Or is this whole mess just a plot device for Claire to have a showdown with Geillis in the cave or for Brianna to travel back in time? I think ganesh made a good point that the brother's interpretation is just that; an interpretation. It doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. 

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yeah, I guess.  It's just rather disappointing to me after how the show in it's first season was touted as so "realistic" and "historically accurate", which is what got me interested in the first place - not magically wonderfully delicious 'romantic' coincidences. 

I was surprised that the whole trying to prevent Colleoden plot ended so quickly. I thought it was the main overarching theme of the books. I figured it would be S4 ish by the time we got there. I don't feel that would have dragged either because there was really a lot going on leading up to Colleoden, and you had such a great nemesis in Black Jack. I don't feel like he was wasted, but I think there was a lot more to this era in the show to explore. 

22 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I think ganesh made a good point that the brother's interpretation is just that; an interpretation. It doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. 

I'm not buying that the sister is really psychic because Claire didn't either, but the other half of what I was saying was that it really doesn't matter because if Gellis and the brother and everyone else thinks she's for real, then they're going to act on it. I don't think the Governor thinks she's real either. (Side note - I totally want to be called 'guv' irl). 

The dark humor in it for me is that Gellis seems to be acting on the psychic's words and is going to be wreaking havoc and killing people. All for nothing because her words were really meaningless nonsense. 

The return of Gellis is a good move for the story imo because she brings in a whole other level of chaos. 

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Gellis knew, as of 1968? '69? that the rebellion of '45 had failed.  I thought Gellis' purpose for going back was to try to change that to prevent the destruction and loss of Scottish culture as a result by having an independent Scotland with its own king.  But in 1765-ish, she knows that, despite her best efforts, she still didn't change the outcome of the uprising and the clan life and a lot of Scottish heritage is destroyed. 

When she revealed to Claire that she was from the future, she said her intent was to put Charlie on the throne and win Scottish independence. When we saw her in 1968 she was talking about independence as well. At this point in 1765, from what I got is that if she can win an independent Scotland then their way of life will return. The problem that they haven't addressed yet is that who would the king be? Anyone? Or is she looking for a legit heir?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

Or is this whole mess just a plot device for Claire to have a showdown with Geillis in the cave or for Brianna to travel back in time?

Both of the above.  I think it's a plot device for Claire to have a showdown with Gellis in the cave and for Brianna to travel back in time.  That will probably be the cliff hanger for the end of the season.

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

I was surprised that the whole trying to prevent Colleoden plot ended so quickly. I thought it was the main overarching theme of the books. I figured it would be S4 ish by the time we got there. I don't feel that would have dragged either because there was really a lot going on leading up to Colleoden, and you had such a great nemesis in Black Jack. I don't feel like he was wasted, but I think there was a lot more to this era in the show to explore. 

Oh, I agree.  I really wish they'd drawn out the attempt to prevent Culloden much longer - while in Scotland.  I think that would have been so much better than what we got.

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

I'm not buying that the sister is really psychic because Claire didn't either, but the other half of what I was saying was that it really doesn't matter because if Gellis and the brother and everyone else thinks she's for real, then they're going to act on it. I don't think the Governor thinks she's real either. (Side note - I totally want to be called 'guv' irl). 

The dark humor in it for me is that Gellis seems to be acting on the psychic's words and is going to be wreaking havoc and killing people. All for nothing because her words were really meaningless nonsense. 

But I think we're supposed to believe that the sister really is psychic, even if Claire doesn't - after the Abandawe mention/confirmation that it wasn't complete gibberish by Fogden and the way Margaret seemed to go into a trance for the prophecy.  That doesn't mean that all of Gellis' scheming and murdering is going to amount to anything - I don't think it will.  (Obviously, historically, it can't.)

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

At this point in 1765, from what I got is that if she can win an independent Scotland then their way of life will return.

But that was part of my point, and one of the problems with her plan, I think.  Gellis, in 1768, knows the Highland Clearances and the other laws (sorry I can't remember the names of them right now) which forbade the wearing of tartan and playing bagpipes and having the traditional Scottish weapon, like claymores,  which is what destroyed much of the Scots heritage, have already been enacted and had their intended effect.  Even if she managed to win an independent Scotland in a few more years, I really don't understand how she could believe (as a more 'modern' woman herself - knowing how the future and technology progress) that that traditional way of clan life would return.  I think it's ridiculous. 

The only way for that to happen, imo, would be to not let it happen in the first place - which would entail going back in time yet again. 

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

The problem that they haven't addressed yet is that who would the king be? Anyone? Or is she looking for a legit heir?

Well, we never saw her meet BPC, did we?  Maybe she doesn't realize what a complete idiot he really is.  He made it out of the rebellion alive, you know.

[ganesh]

I think she's just so bent on an independent Scotland that she's not thinking much past that. Mark me. (sry)

I don't see how Brianna will travel back in time. Or why. She's living her life in 1968, so why would she have any motivation to travel back? 

[terrymct]

2 hours ago, ganesh said:

I was surprised that the whole trying to prevent Colleoden plot ended so quickly. I thought it was the main overarching theme of the books. I figured it would be S4 ish by the time we got there. I don't feel that would have dragged either because there was really a lot going on leading up to Colleoden, and you had such a great nemesis in Black Jack. I don't feel like he was wasted, but I think there was a lot more to this era in the show to explore. 

I'm not buying that the sister is really psychic because Claire didn't either, but the other half of what I was saying was that it really doesn't matter because if Gellis and the brother and everyone else thinks she's for real, then they're going to act on it. I don't think the Governor thinks she's real either. (Side note - I totally want to be called 'guv' irl). 

 

I suspect it was difficult writing historically accurate, detailed story lines as opposed to a casual romp across landscapes.   Black Jack started out interesting but got way to 2 dimensional with the sole goal of trying to sexually assault either Claire or Jamie, depending on who was in the vicinity.

Weren't the sapphires, once brought back together supposed to allow the sister to actually BE psychic about the Scottish king thing, rather than being a woman who raves because of mental health issues?

1 minute ago, ganesh said:

I think she's just so bent on an independent Scotland that she's not thinking much past that. Mark me. (sry)

I don't see how Brianna will travel back in time. Or why. She's living her life in 1968, so why would she have any motivation to travel back? 

 

To meet her birth father and/or to save her mother by bringing some tidbit of information to them that she or Roger finds in a book or genealogy resource.  I bet you it's either one of those or a combination of the two.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

35 minutes ago, ganesh said:

Mark me. (sry)

Lol!  Admit it - you loved saying it! ;)

38 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I don't see how Brianna will travel back in time. Or why. She's living her life in 1968, so why would she have any motivation to travel back? 

Well, what @terrymct said definitely.  But also, she's got no other family in 1968 now, so why not?  Especially if it's to save her mom.  

[ganesh]

I meant, how would she even know what's going on to actually travel back?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

21 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I meant, how would she even know what's going on to actually travel back?

Oh, I still think what @terrymct said: she and Roger find something in a genealogy book or a newspaper clipping. Or runs into Joe Abernathy somewhere and he makes some comment about the 200 year old skeleton found in the Caribbean on which he's doing research and somehow she finds out (again, news paper, historical record) that it's connected to Claire.  I'm sure the show will make up something.  It doesn't even have to be well explained - just one giant coincidence like Claire and Jamie ending up on the same island - because FATE!

[ganesh]

I forgot about the skeleton. That would be the proverbial chekhov's gun. 

That would actually be a great bonkers move. Gellis kills Claire in the finale and goes through the stones to hunt for Brianna. In the coda, Brianna finds out the skeleton is Claire and says, "I have to go back!" fade to black

[vavera4ka]

It WOULD be kinda cool if the freed slave was an ancestor of the Doctor in the 60s. Escaped slaves to live not too far from Gellis' residence... 

[grommit2]

So, that's what they mean by "blood bath"?  
Hmmm...I thought it actually referred to something completely different.
But, I like this portrayal a whole lot better.  And Ian certainly found the scene...ummm...exciting?
For a woman that would have to be about 45 or so, she is in really good shape.
 

[Hook75]

Poor John Grey. I'm kinda hoping to see him and Jamie together, maybe just for one night? A dream? A goodbye kiss? Something? These two are SO hot!

[foxfreakinmulder]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 10:52 AM, BitterApple said:

Lord John Grey is smoking hot and damned if I'm not giddy to see him back on my tv screen.

OMG, what a beautiful man :-) I think he looks a little like my honey Chris Evans.

Claire and Jamie must carry a lot of money around with them. First he buys a slave then they buy new party clothes for Claire, Jamie, Furgus, Marsali, Willoughby plus their slave and they rented 2 coaches. I know Claire brought back some coins is that what they are using or are we just supposed to hand wave this?

I think the new Furgus is cute and he's likeable but he just doesn't have what the young Furgus had and I can't pin point what that is but he doesn't have it. For me anyways.

And of course Claire goes off by herself at the slave market right after Jamie tells her to stay close to him. I agree with the above posted that said she was rude to the person that handed her the umbrella.

I bet that slave ownership paper is going to come into play somewhere down the line, especially since it's in Claire's name. Maybe Roger finds it?

I know I'm way behind but I'm watching on Netflix.