S13.E02: The Rising Son

[companionenvy]

I'm really liking this season, so far. First, let's get the bad out of the way:

1. Not having a soul shouldn't be a slight quirk that can be dealt with in an offhand joke, show.

2. While Lucifer's reason for not killing Mary is better than a lot of bad reasons they could have come up with, it still doesn't make sense. Lucifer is way more powerful than Sam and Dean, and Jack is even more powerful. Why would Lucifer think he needs to set up a trade to get Jack back? Even if he thought Sam and Dean could stop him, I can't imagine Lucifer would anticipate Jack not voluntarily coming to him.

3. The description of the shadim was basically the leviathan. 

Now the good:

1. I like Jack. I'm invested in what happens to him, and I think Alexander Calvert is doing a good job giving him layers. The moment where he remembers Lucifer communicating with him before his birth and his affect completely changes was especially effective. His stabbing himself was also interesting - they aren't just playing him as a goofy, very dangerous baby, and they aren't just playing him as an emo, angsty teen. He's both and neither at the same time, and I like it.

2. Shockingly, I'm not minding Lucifer and Mary in the AU. I think it is because they actually have a task at hand (even though we don't know how Lucifer plans on accomplishing it), so we aren't just going through endless iterations of "Lucifer tortures someone" or "Lucifer remains smug even as a prisoner" or "Lucifer commits meaningless evil and threatens the Winchesters." I also think it helps that he is tied to a character I do care about. While I had some issues with Mary last season, I still wound up finding her sympathetic, so it isn't the equivalent of the mind-numbingly boring scenes in which Lucifer pontificated to demon lackeys or sparred with Crowley (who I also liked only when he was paired with the Winchesters or Cas, and wasn't terribly interested in on his own terms).

3. Still on the fence with hammy Asmodeus, but I was impressed with the first view of AU Michael. I think the actor gave off an air of real authority that we don't often get from demons or angels these days.

4. Here's the important one: I love the psychological shadings of the Sam/Dean conflict. I immediately knew when Sam said his line about Dean's "wires getting crossed" that it was going to cause controversy, but his full explanation, combined with Dean's final scene, sold it to me.

As others have said "Dean can't handle grief" and "Dean is too black and white on monsters" are both beats that seem played out and disrespectful to Dean's character growth. But this episode established for me that this isn't actually what is happening. When Sam said Dean had his wires crossed, the conclusion to that statement wasn't simply "because he is sad and Dean acts out when he's sad." Dean's "wires were crossed," according to Sam, because Dean feels an obligation to protect everyone, especially after losing two loved ones, and recognizes that he may not be able to both protect Jack and protect people from Jack. At the end of the episode, Dean more or less confirms this. It isn't that he hates Jack because he's a monster or wants to take out his grief for Cas and Mary on him. It is that he knows that if, as is likely, this goes South, he's the one who will have to kill Jack. Not Sam, him. So he doesn't have the luxury of getting close and just hoping things turn out for the best. This strikes me as comparatively psychologically subtle, for this show.

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I have a bad feeling that this SL is going to end up with Jack going dark side and it all get blamed on Dean for not giving Jack a chance. I can just see it now.

I certainly hope he goes darkside, but I can't see how Dean would be blamed for it.  He doesn't even have any choice but to give him a chance because as we were told about 10 times, they don't know how to kill him.

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

2. While Lucifer's reason for not killing Mary is better than a lot of bad reasons they could have come up with, it still doesn't make sense. Lucifer is way more powerful than Sam and Dean, and Jack is even more powerful. Why would Lucifer think he needs to set up a trade to get Jack back? Even if he thought Sam and Dean could stop him, I can't imagine Lucifer would anticipate Jack not voluntarily coming to him.

I don't think Lucifer knows that Jack aged up.  He may not know how quickly Nephilim come into their power.

[Wayward Son]

I haven’t had a chance to read through the thread yet so these are just my initial thoughts. Sorry if they’ve all already been mentioned. 

• Asmodeus taking out the demons was a pretty cool moment :D . 
• I actually don’t think Sam cares all that much about Jack. The way I see it is Dean wants Jack dead because he sees things as hopeless and doesn’t want things to get any worse. While Sam has hope and wants to keep Jack alive to use for his own means i.e. helping them to get Mary back. This might change in future, but at the moment I think Sam sees Jack as more of a tool than anything.
• So how do we think the scarring from Lucifer worked? Is he tied to that vessel like Crowley ties Lucifer to Nick? Or do the scars just magically reappear every time he takes up a new vessel? Or has he been ordered to keep the same meat suit as an eternal reminder and he’s too afraid to change
• I like that Jack likes watching cartoons and has the same fascination as Castiel had. Plus

 

Spoiler

Nice Scooby Doo episode foreshadowing. 

 

• Ugh, I hate the way they treat Donatello being soulless. “It’s just like having an appendix” ugh. BuckLemming don’t have any respect for the rest of the show, do they? :( 
• I felt sorry for Jack when they were all arguing as though he wasn’t there. There is nothing worse than that. I don’t blame him for teleporting of the room. I think Alexander is doing a good job of playing his confusion and vulnerability. 
• “House keeping is not going to like this” that made me chuckle :) 
• The whole new devils gate no one has ever heard of before, which just happens to be mentioned in John’s journal made me roll my eyes. Clearly Asmodeus is not as loyal to Lucifer as he made out to the other demons since he tried to use Jack to recommit the crime he was previously punished for. 
• Great end scene between Dean and Jack! Since I’m actually starting to like Jack I really hope it doesn’t come to that. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Wayward Son]

32 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think Lucifer knows that Jack aged up.  He may not know how quickly Nephilim come into their power.

Since the show doesn’t explicitly mention the typical aging of nephilim’s this is only head canon, but the impression I got was that they do normally age as we would. However, Kelly’s words about the danger he was in and the fact he would never get to be a child prompted Jack to instinctively use his abilities to age himself at a rapid age out of self-preservation. If Kelly hadn’t of said those words to him he wouldn’t have used that energy and would have just aged normally. At least that’s the impression I got from Jack’s words :)

[ILoveReading]

5 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

^THIS!

Why are all the writers stuck in neutral when it comes to the emotional aspect of Dean? This whole "Dean has trouble grieving" character development arc should have been finished with season TWO!! It can't be character development if he's never allowed to develop.

It seems the writers still view the characters based on the pilot and can't see past Dean's "no chick flick moments" line. 

IMO, despite the show trying to tell us Dean can't process emotions, because "his wires are crossed" I actually find the relationship between Jack and Dean to be more honest than the one between Jack and Sam.

At least Jack knows where he stands with Dean.  I'm not saying Dean's handling things perfectly, far from it, but he's upfront with Jack about certain things.    Sam isn't being honest with himself about why he keeps defending Jack.  What Jack doesn't know, is.... (I'm not sure if this is still considered a spoiler so I'm going to tag it just in case.

Spoiler

Sam sees Jack as mirror for himself.  He's more interested in Jack being good because that some how means he can be good.  Sam want to use Jack for self validation.  Plus, he also sees Jack as some kind of tool.  If they can win him over to their side they can use him to get their mom back. 

Sam doesn't seem to actually care about Jack himself, so much as what he can do.

[Aeryn13]

In terms of badass watch:  I was going "hey, not bad" when Dean seemed to be holding his own against the demon, then going "urgh, not again" when he had to be saved to "hey, cool" to the badass angel blade throw that saved Donatello. So I`ll give this a tiny win. 

Demonic Colonel Sanders? I don`t know. The only Prince of Hell who impressed me on the show so far was Azazel. The others are a lot of "bla bla bla". And the first one last Season was a Cain knockoff.

Also, demon politics in the warehouse "it`s a throne room, we swear" set have become really tedious and boring. And not just this episode.

It`s somewhat hilarious that the concept of losing a soul has become as inconsistent and all over the place as how Soulless!Sam was, depending on what the episodic writer wanted his soullessness to be, comedy, scare etc. Now on the show we had the soulless people Abaddon created who were raging maniacs, the soulless people Amara created who were mostly psycho to tragic (Len) and now mostly okay (Donatello). Leave it to Bucklemming to not give a shit about any pre-existing canon. I noticed they didn`t reference the birth order of the archangelic brothers here either. Well, can`t very well have Lucifer refer to Michael as "little bro" as they ret-conned it.

And the "evilest evil" thing buried deep down in hell is just so corny and eleventh hour. If that was a thing, it should have been at least mentioned before. But that requires clever storytelling where you plan out things way in advance so you can drop little hints and only flesh them out years later. This ain`t that kind of show.  

The conflict with Jack was the main thing in the episode and it was as simplistic as I imagined it to be from the start. Jack is played very much like the wounded baby bird right now, even his angst is all about him being sympathetic. So of course Dean is made to look extra-mean about it. Now I doubt Jack will go actually evil in the end but if he did, yup, they would make it Dean`s fault. 

Sam explaining Dean`s wrong feelings away, that is feelings that aren`t in accordance what Sam thinks is the right way to feel, is not a new thing. He did it last year to Mary and Dean himself and now to Jack and Dean himself. Now I doubt Jack actually understood it. Dean is probably lucky Jack didn`t take the "crossed wires" comment literally and tried to "fix" Dean`s brain or something. What is that even supposed to mean, his "wires get crossed"? He sees things differently than Sam, that doesn`t mean he has a mental deficiency. Those two things are not the same, even if for Sam they are.

Overall, I have seen worse from the Nep Duo. Like, last Season. This Season so far is more boring to me. I like Alexander Calvert`s performance as Jack but this doesn`t mean I care about this or any other storyline right now. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I haven't re-watched yet, so there's that.  

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Just wanted to add, I do wonder how much Sam really likes Jack or is manipulating him to figure out his powers so he can get him to open a rift. Like I'm not saying Sam doesn't think Jack has goodness or could be good but everything Sam is asking him about is "What can he do for us", which is that really any better than Dean being all "We can't trust him".

I think Sam is holding off on trying to outright kill Jack because he (Sam) thinks he may be able to open up the rift to get Mary back.  Sam said that to Dean.  But I'm not sure I would call it manipulation.  I also wouldn't necessarily say Sam 'likes' Jack - as he really doesn't know him well enough to decide that he likes him - but is at least willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.   That willingness to give him the benefit of the doubt is why I wouldn't say that Sam is outright manipulating Jack.  

8 hours ago, Whodunnit said:

Lucifer was an archangel  (good) who went dark side. Wouldn't Jack's powers be based on the original formula  (powerful and proud but not evil) version of Lucifer?

You mean like Luke Skywalker?  ;)

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

A for Asmodeus bringing them out... I have a feeling that his "I'll keep the seat warm for him" is a ruse. He knows Lucifer is gone right now, so he wants to raise these things as an FU to Lucifer and to maybe get  a hold for himself... For me it's 50/50 at this point if Asmodeus' intent is to get in good with Lucifer and/or negotiate a better position for himself or if he wants to take over hell for himself and dig in his heels for when Lucifer comes back that he can fight him.

I agree about the ruse.  I got the feeling that Asmodeus is not going to willingly give up the throne when Lucifer gets back.  I think he's harboring a big desire for revenge for the face scarring thing.  That embarrassed him.  I don't think he ever quite got over it, and now he sees his chance to get back at the devil who did it.  

4 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I'm really liking this season, so far.

Excellent post!

One more thing about Asmodeus: when I read it his name, I have to read his name as (As-MOH-dee-us) not (As-moh-DAY-oos) as pronounced.  Because when I 'read' it as it's supposed to be pronounced, all I can think of is this:

And I don't think that's a good thing. ;)

[Boopsahoy]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

When my sister and I were little, my Grampa had a "wires crossed" type reaction in a similar vein. If something happened where one of us got hurt or was in some sort of danger of injury, he'd be afraid for us... but it would come out as yelling. As you can imagine, that sometimes made the situation worse, because then even if we hadn't gotten hurt from say a tumble, Grampa yelling might start the waterworks anyway. Eventually we figured out Grampa didn't mean it - he was just scared for us and frustrated that he wasn't able to stop us from taking the tumble in the first place and it came out as yelling - but it was confusing until that realization. ; )

I 100% understand this. When my Mom started having memory problems she took the wrong pills (even though I put the correct pills pout for her) and I got so angry and then I realized I wasn't angry I was scared.

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I agree about the ruse.  I got the feeling that Asmodeus is not going to willingly give up the throne when Lucifer gets back.  I think he's harboring a big desire for revenge for the face scarring thing.  That embarrassed him.  I don't think he ever quite got over it, and now he sees his chance to get back at the devil who did it.  

Definitely.  If he were all about keeping the seat warm he wouldn't immediately go out and try to let out the things that Lucifer immediately locked up and punished him for letting out in the first place.  It does kind of make you wonder why he just sat on the sidelines for centuries, millennia(?), though, while Lucifer was otherwise disposed of in the cage.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Not having a soul shouldn't be a slight quirk that can be dealt with in an offhand joke, show.

The more I think about it, the more the soulless thing is really bugging me.  I think I'm going to take the rest of this to the WTFery thread.

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It does kind of make you wonder why he just sat on the sidelines for centuries, millennia(?), though, while Lucifer was otherwise disposed of in the cage.

Yeah, I did wonder that.  I was kind of afraid to bring it up, but since you did.... :)  Maybe because Asmodeus is the 4th prince of Hell and Ramiel was higher up than him and Ramiel was the one who gave Crowley the crown, and until recently, Rammy was still alive and/or Lucifer was out of the cage, As was afraid to upset the hierarchy.  Otherwise, I got nothing.  

[gonzosgirrl]

I would buy Sam's explanation of Dean's 'hatred' to Jack if it weren't for that pesky 'wires crossed' thing. Because of course Dean doesn't do feelings right, and now it's not just that he chooses to be angry, he's just plain incapable of higher thinking. They never miss a chance to have characters call him a natural born killer, and now he's kinda sorta not wired right to boot. Yeah, no.

And since when do demons emit white light and burned out eyes when 'dying'? That's only ever been a smiting/angelic murder thing. Are they implying Asmodeus and the other YEDs (or Princes of Hell if we're going with that) are angelic?

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Definitely.  If he were all about keeping the seat warm he wouldn't immediately go out and try to let out the things that Lucifer immediately locked up and punished him for letting out in the first place.  It does kind of make you wonder why he just sat on the sidelines for centuries, millennia(?), though, while Lucifer was otherwise disposed of in the cage.

And aren't demons (they are still demons, right?) in meat suits? Why would he keep this scarred one for centuries if the scar bothers him? Even with some jumped-up explanation that demons can't heal their meatsuits of Lucifer-inflicted wounds, why not just find another suit?

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And aren't demons (they are still demons, right?) in meat suits? Why would he keep this scarred one for centuries if the scar bothers him? Even with some jumped-up explanation that demons can't heal their meatsuits of Lucifer-inflicted wounds, why not just find another suit?

Maybe the scar is so deep on him that it transfers to his meat suit? 

[Pondlass1]

I'm fed up with the cheap looking hell throne room scenes (are they in hell or what?). Asmo is a flat caricature (so far) and the demon actors terrible. Also fed up with the dusty AU (are they walking in circles?).  The episodes are only 42 minutes long - these scenes waste my time.

It took me less than 30 minutes to re-watch.  

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I'm fed up with the cheap looking hell throne room scenes (are they in hell or what?). Asmo is a flat caricature (so far) and the demon actors terrible. Also fed up with the dusty AU (are they walking in circles?).  The episodes are only 42 minutes long - these scenes waste my time.

It took me less than 30 minutes to re-watch.  

Crowley's former throne room is based on earth. It's an abandoned asylum if I recall correctly :) 

[Jeddah]

Maybe I missed it last season, but when did they get John’s journal back?

[JanetWaldo]

I'm enjoying the new season so far!

13 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

*my apologies if this post is to much bitch/jerk.  It's not intended to be but since the whole episode was basically one big Sam vs Dean set up its hard to not go there.

I didn't think the whole episode was one big Sam vs. Dean set up for the following reason:

6 hours ago, companionenvy said:

IAs others have said "Dean can't handle grief" and "Dean is too black and white on monsters" are both beats that seem played out and disrespectful to Dean's character growth. But this episode established for me that this isn't actually what is happening. When Sam said Dean had his wires crossed, the conclusion to that statement wasn't simply "because he is sad and Dean acts out when he's sad." Dean's "wires were crossed," according to Sam, because Dean feels an obligation to protect everyone, especially after losing two loved ones, and recognizes that he may not be able to both protect Jack and protect people from Jack. At the end of the episode, Dean more or less confirms this. It isn't that he hates Jack because he's a monster or wants to take out his grief for Cas and Mary on him. It is that he knows that if, as is likely, this goes South, he's the one who will have to kill Jack. Not Sam, him. So he doesn't have the luxury of getting close and just hoping things turn out for the best. This strikes me as comparatively psychologically subtle, for this show.

I thought that was incredibly insightful of Sam.  And this part seems to be missing or glossed over in a lot of the complaints about this conversation between Sam and Jack.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean is probably lucky Jack didn`t take the "crossed wires" comment literally and tried to "fix" Dean`s brain or something.

Heh.  I actually think this would be an interesting and fun episode if they did it.  Or it could turn out not so fun and some fans would get the 'dark' Dean they've been wanting since the Demon Dean storyline. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Heh.  I actually think this would be an interesting and fun episode if they did it. 

If it ended up being played as a comedy, making a big joke out of the character? No thanks. Actually, I thought more like Jack would try to "uncross some wires" in Dean`s brain and end up either killing him or giving him permanent brain damage. Because, contrary to what Sam seems to believe, Dean isn`t actually mentally deficient and his wires are working properly. 

[JanetWaldo]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If it ended up being played as a comedy, making a big joke out of the character? No thanks.

It could be done as a comedy without making a joke out of the character, imo.  Of course, unfortunately, some would probably not think so no matter how well it was done.

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Because, contrary to what Sam seems to believe, Dean isn`t actually mentally deficient and his wires are working properly. 

I don't think that Sam believes Dean is mentally deficient at all.  I think that is a gross, perhaps intentional, misinterpretation of what Sam meant.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I don't think that Sam believes Dean is mentally deficient at all.  I think that is a gross, perhaps intentional, misinterpretation of what Sam meant.

I don`t think Sam is even aware that this is what he is putting out there with the "crossed wires" comment. His word choice on such things is IMO often poor. 

[Myrelle]

48 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

In terms of badass watch:  I was going "hey, not bad" when Dean seemed to be holding his own against the demon, then going "urgh, not again" when he had to be saved to "hey, cool" to the badass angel blade throw that saved Donatello. So I`ll give this a tiny win. 

Ditto.

 

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They never miss a chance to have characters call him a natural born killer, and now he's kinda sorta not wired right to boot. Yeah, no.

I loved Dean in this episode. And I like that he's being point blank with Jack. That's Dean. And I certainly don't agree with Sam(or the nepotism duo) that Dean gets his "wires crossed" when he's simply disagreeing with his brother on something, but I'm not surprised in the least that they had to throw that line in there; and that's too bad because the rest of the explanation worked. Typical of these two writers, though.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

The conflict with Jack was the main thing in the episode and it was as simplistic as I imagined it to be from the start. Jack is played very much like the wounded baby bird right now, even his angst is all about him being sympathetic.

Totally and completely predictable and I never thought that it would present any other way than the way that it has so far. Dean is even softening towards him. That's obvious, but Jensen still sells even the predictable so well. I loved what he said to Jack at the end and he's(as usual) creating all sorts of chemistry with this actor, too, even if it's of a far more complex nature than that which the whole nature vs nurture debate would ever allow for any actor in the role that Dean's been saddled with concerning the spawn-and he's still the spawn to me, just as he is to Dean-for now, anyway. It was obvious that that's about to change also, though. The fear for this Deanfan lies in the question of who it will be to school him and set him straight on those pesky/"wrong" feelings/thoughts of his this time around and the words that that person will use to do that. I think I know, but that's for the bitterness spoiler/spec thread.

I LOL at what's happening in the AU with Lucifer, Mary, and now Michael-especially when the two archangels went for fist fighting.

And now soullessness is being played for laughs, too-except I didn't laugh at that, writers.

And I won't touch Colonel Ham's performance with a ten foot pole. Hopefully he won't be around too long or too often.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Overall, I have seen worse from the Nep Duo. Like, last Season. This Season so far is more boring to me. I like Alexander Calvert`s performance as Jack but this doesn`t mean I care about this or any other storyline right now. 

I'm not finding his performance riveting, the whole woobie thing does nothing for me, and I actually thought that the other kid completely stole their scenes together in the premiere. There's too many problems with this show for me to list them all right now. But in a nutshell, it feels not only predictable, but very flat also to me right now; like it's truly past it's expiration date, as I recently saw it described here. Repetitiveness and redundancy will do that to a show.

And I miss Mark Sheppard's Crowley terribly already, especially after watching the nonsense that went on in the AU and with Colonel Ham in Hell. Blech.

[DittyDotDot]

Wow, for a Horrible Duo episode it wasn't bad--I'm not saying it was necessarily good, just not bad. Lots of annoying preaching and bullshit philosophizing, as is their want, but it wasn't outright offensive and it mostly made sense...or made no more or less sense than anything else. Whatever.

However, Sam needs to stop talking. I don't necessarily disagree with him--except on his saying that Dean's wires get crossed--but he just kept saying the same thing over and over and over again expecting different results. SHEESH! I get it Sam, you want something good to come out of all the bad but saying it over and over and over again will not make it come true. Not to mention that you seem to be taking the easier road, but couching it as moral superiority. Dean's just preparing himself to take the hard road, if need be, it doesn't mean Dean is actually wrong, though. Plus, it never hurts to be proactive and prepared. 

Even though I'm not sure I see him as soulless--not enough edges or differences--I enjoy Donatello the "scientist" prophet, soulless or not. As for Asmodeus, I wouldn't say I either like or dislike him yet. Seems pretty typical bad guy right now, but somehow I don't think he will be typical in the end. Is it wrong I really wanted him to succeed in freeing the Shedim, though? ;)

Weak spot is still the Alternate right now. It's just not doing anything for me so I keep checking out during those bits. Hopefully that changes as we move forward now.

They keep saying the season is about nature vs. nurture, but I stick by my assessment that it will ultimately be about absolute power corrupting absolutely. That seems to be what's wrong in the Alternate; Michael has no counterbalance and absolute power. In the end, I don't think Jack will either be good or bad, but will be the yang to Michael's ying.

Edited October 20, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I'm not finding his performance riveting, the whole woobie thing does nothing for me

Maybe it`s because I saw him on Arrow as the unhinged psycho first but I see Jack as different enough that I gotta credit the actor with some range here.

Compared to last year when the Vampire Diaries transplant Lady Deadeyes showed me the same damn non-performance in either show. 

They aren`t at all subtle with Jack right now or create any true tension whether he is good or bad but I don`t think that is the actor`s fault, rather the writing. 

[auntvi]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Definitely.  If he were all about keeping the seat warm he wouldn't immediately go out and try to let out the things that Lucifer immediately locked up and punished him for letting out in the first place.  It does kind of make you wonder why he just sat on the sidelines for centuries, millennia(?), though, while Lucifer was otherwise disposed of in the cage.

Last season Ramiel said that Azazel was a fanatic but that the 3 Princes who were left were not interested in the world. I think he said that Asmodeus was interested in his games or toys?

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

They aren`t at all subtle with Jack right now or create any true tension whether he is good or bad but I don`t think that is the actor`s fault, rather the writing. 

This is likely the case because it's not that I despise, hate, or even dislike the character-it's just that so far he's done very little for me. He doesn't move me in any way, tbh. 

And I certainly don't love him, that's for sure.

[ILoveReading]

49 minutes ago, JanetWaldo said:

I didn't think the whole episode was one big Sam vs. Dean set up for the following reason:

I disagree because Sam and Dean were very much at odds this entire episode.  Sam and Dean didn't talk to each other they spent the episode talking at each other.  Neither is really listening to what the other had to say. 

Its when they get like this that apocalypses start. 

[Casseiopeia]

This whole episode just seemed to be pointless.  We didn't learn anything new from last week.  Dean doesn't like/trust/wants to kill Jack (why is he deliberately provoking Jack?).  Sam is being peacemaker again.  Jack is still confused about what/who he is.  Other than a Jack tracker Donatello had no purpose. Asmodeus is another mustache twirling villain.  How long before the Sedrim (?) start wearing suits and terrorizing corporate America?  Lucifer and Mary are running around Riftworld kind of aimlessly.  Lucifer can teleport why is he running.  Michael makes his grand entrance, is told Lucifer is from an alternate universe and gets into a fist fight.....

In other words a typical Ross/Lemming script only more pointless than most.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think Sam is even aware that this is what he is putting out there with the "crossed wires" comment. His word choice on such things is IMO often poor. 

The problem for me  is that this isn't *Sam's* word choice that's poor, it's the writers'.  And they should know better, unless it was deliberate; because "crossed wires" *does* have a negative connotation, whereas they could have just said "processes things differently," or even the more specific "sometimes when he's worried or sad he seems to be angry," which would explain without seeming insulting.  And since he *did* give that explanation later, there was no need for the "crossed wires" comment, because not only does it make it seem as if there's something wrong with Dean, it wouldn't mean anything to Jack, who has only the vaguest idea of how humans are supposed to work in the first place. 

But no, I don't think they intended to say he's mentally deficient, just that his way of processing is "wrong" (as opposed to Sam's).  I just expect more of writers (even those two) when it comes to choosing the words they put in their characters' mouths.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

A lot of weird shit has happened over the years, and Dean is still so damn sure that he can't get their mother back alive?

Since he believes she has been killed immediately, why would he? He doesn`t believe the problem lies in getting her back from the AU world but that there would only be a corpse TO get back right now. Or maybe not even that.

Quote

That said, it is hard for me to believe that a guy at Dean's age can't be reasoned with. 

Sometimes people simply have different opinions. Sam started this by saying "we need to be on the same page" and Dean answered "that`s a problem because we aren`t". He said this pretty calmly and matter-of-factly. And yet the entire episode Sam continued to try with a basic variation on "we need to be on the same page". 

Well, if they have diametrically opposing viewpoints on an issue, that is impossible so I don`t know what he Sam thinks is gonna happen there. That has nothing to do with being not being reasoned with on Dean`s part. He just has different reasons. If Sam thinks those are valid or not, doesn`t change that Dean has a different outlook than Sam. 

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Dean is the type of guy that is so easy to piss off, it is comical.  That said, it is hard for me to believe that a guy at Dean's age can't be reasoned with.  Dean and Sam have been doing this shit for well over a decade, and they still don't know how to talk to each other. 

A lot of weird shit has happened over the years, and Dean is still so damn sure that he can't get their mother back alive?  Bull crap on that.  It is like Dean is looking for any excuse to kill Jack.

Dean deciding Mary is dead and it's not worth looking for a way to get her back from the rift, or at least find out for sure, is the most out-of-character thing the writers have ever done with him, bar none.* Cas? Well, maybe Dean watched the show and believed that burned up wings = irrevocably dead angel, the silly goose. But Mary? No way, no how.  As for the bolded, I'd say by the end of the episode, Dean is looking for an excuse not to kill Jack.

 

*the rest of my thoughts on this, I'll take to BvJ.

Edited October 20, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, if they have diametrically opposing viewpoints on an issue, that is impossible so I don`t know what he Sam thinks is gonna happen there. That has nothing to do with being not being reasoned with on Dean`s part. He just has different reasons. If Sam thinks those are valid or not, doesn`t change that Dean has a different outlook than Sam. 

Kind of like many of the posters on this site. :)  

[Icarus]

I've just watched and I am rather depressed. I enjoyed the “Premier”, I could sympathise with Dean and Sam equally with how they approached the Jack conundrum. However I felt that in this episode Dean just was far too negative for me. I don't get as caught up as I used to about who does what and where etc but I just found this episode didn't feel “true” to me for either Dean or Sam but more especially Dean. Jensen gave it his all as usual i.e. I felt how low and devastated he was, I also felt how Jared portayed his desperate hope that Jack would turn out to be good but – sorry acting can only do so much – if the writing is not there, can't make it be there! So basically my feeling is that they are going to go too far, for me that is of course, in the direction of Dean is angsty, emotional and not the soldieir/fighter he is in my mind.

[Gbb]

HATE Colonel Sanders/Foghorn Leghorn/Amodeus. Hate his stupid white suit and his stupid fake accent. He needs to be gone yesterday. 

There’sno chance of getting Crowley back? How big is the rift?

[Dobian]

I kept waiting for the new Colonel Sanders demon to pull out a bucket of extra crispy.

[lmdreamer]

I really hope Jack turns out to be good because I don't want Sam to be wrong again. Also, I miss Crowley.  That is all for now.

[DeeDee79]

I enjoyed this episode more than last week but I continue to be bored by the AU and I can already tell that Asmodeus is going to be a little too over the top for me. Also agree with other posters that I don't like the handwaving over everything that they've shown us in previous seasons of how devastating soullessness turns out for the victim. Or maybe Donatello's lack of violent impulses that seemed to happen with the others was tempered due to him being a prophet *shrugs* I didn't mind Dean being prepared for the worst with Jack and Sam wanting to hope for the best but the whole " he's evil! let's kill him!" vs " he may be good! let's help him!" debate  between the brothers will be annoying if they don't find some middle ground. Also loved seeing a bit of badass Dean with the angel blade throw & the Jack mimicry of Dean was amusing.

18 hours ago, companionenvy said:

3. The description of the shadim was basically the leviathan.

Exactly!!

[catrox14]

I was re-watching this and Dean went to the Black Spur Bar.  That's the name of the bar he and Crowley were staying at in Black. Hmmmmm....

Also, I'm gonna call those things the Shitteen.

Edited October 21, 2017 by catrox14

[Casseiopeia]

7 hours ago, Gbb said:

HATE Colonel Sanders/Foghorn Leghorn/Amodeus. Hate his stupid white suit and his stupid fake accent. He needs to be gone yesterday. 

There’sno chance of getting Crowley back? How big is the rift?

Foghorn Leghorn is now my favorite....Lol

[mertensia]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was re-watching this and Dean went to the Black Spur Bar.  That's the name of the bar he and Crowley were staying at in Black. Hmmmmm....

Also, I'm gonna call those things the Shitteen.

The shedim are mentioned in Jewish mythology so calling them the Shitteen seems wildly disrespectful to me, but YMMV.

I enjoyed the episode quite a bit.  Jack's mimicking of Dean,  Donatello's guiding philosophy (and how weirdly appropriate that my Kindle wanted to autocorrect Donatello's to Control's. ),  Jack trying to adjust, Sam trying to explain Dean,  Asmodeus being proactive.

[Reganne]

19 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 

I think Sam is holding off on trying to outright kill Jack because he (Sam) thinks he may be able to open up the rift to get Mary back.  Sam said that to Dean.  But I'm not sure I would call it manipulation.  I also wouldn't necessarily say Sam 'likes' Jack - as he really doesn't know him well enough to decide that he likes him - but is at least willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.   That willingness to give him the benefit of the doubt is why I wouldn't say that Sam is outright manipulating Jack.  

 

I completely agree with this.  Although I think Sam does want to see if Jack can open the portal to find their mom, I don't think that's the sole reason he is taking an interest in Jack.  Yes, he doesn't completely know him enough at this point to determine whether or not he likes him, but he is as you say giving him the benefit of the doubt.  I think if Sam solely wanted to use him to get their mother, I don't think he would be putting emphasis on the possibility of Jack being good to Dean.  Perhaps the reason is because of Sam's experience with having his own sets of powers and a possible dark destiny in his past.

As far as the episode on a whole, I really liked it..... much like the premiere.  I think I'm liking this season more than last season so far.  Last season I wasn't interested in the whole nephilim plot and didn't care about the birth etc.  This year, I'm really liking Jack.  I'm enjoying the new dynamic.  I even find the whole AU arc interesting, but then again I still like Lucifer.  So that could be why.  

Edited October 21, 2017 by Reganne

[Wayward Son]

56 minutes ago, mertensia said:

The shedim are mentioned in Jewish mythology so calling them the Shitteen seems wildly disrespectful to me, but YMMV.

I think when it comes to this show and it’s fandom that it is important for fans to realise there are real life related faith things and then there are the shows version of these things. For instance I personally am a Catholic, a faith which believes in angels and attributes some importance to them. However, on this show angels are often portrayed in a rather negative manner and the fandom discusss then negatively as a result. I don’t see this as disrespect towards me and my faith because I know they’re discussing the angels as seen on this show. I’m sure that is what @catrox14 meant too. She wasn’t trying to disrespect the Jewish faith, but simply referring to her dislike of the way the show has introduced their version of the Shedim. 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I think when it comes to this show and it’s fandom that it is important for fans to realise there are real life related faith things and then there are the shows version of these things. For instance I personally am a Catholic, a faith which believes in angels and attributes some importance to them. However, on this show angels are often portrayed in a rather negative manner and the fandom discusss then negatively as a result. I don’t see this as disrespect towards me and my faith because I know they’re discussing the angels as seen on this show. I’m sure that is what @catrox14 meant too. She wasn’t trying to disrespect the Jewish faith, but simply referring to her dislike of the way the show has introduced their version of the Shedim. 

Yep. In a show with  "dicks with wings", "winged douchebags" and God, the deadbeat dad, calling an actual monster from Hell a bad name doesn't seem so bad.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Reganne said:

think if Sam solely wanted to use him to get their mother, I don't think he would be putting emphasis on the possibility of Jack being good to Dean.  Perhaps the reason is because of Sam's experience with having his own sets of powers and a possible dark destiny in his past.

IMO, Sam cottoned that when Jack is scared he destroys things. He told Dean that Jack is afraid of him. He wants Dean to see Jack as good so that Jack isn't afraid of Dean and does not destroy things out of fear. IMO Sam doesn't see Jack for Jack's sake but for what he can do for them and because he clearly identifies with him about the dark side thing. It doesn't make any sense to me because wasnt Sam purified by the trials? That he was free of that guilt.

[Reganne]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Sam cottoned that when Jack is scared he destroys things. He told Dean that Jack is afraid of him. He wants Dean to see Jack as good so that Jack isn't afraid of Dean and does not destroy things out of fear. IMO Sam doesn't see Jack for Jack's sake but for what he can do for them and because he clearly identifies with him about the dark side thing. It doesn't make any sense to me because wasnt Sam purified by the trials? That he was free of that guilt.

I disagree.  Jack hasn't destroyed or hurt anyone (other than when Dean shot at him which was technically self defence) with simply having Dean around.  In fact, Jack has shown to control those outbursts a little more in this episode than last.  When he became afraid in this episode, he just teleported somewhere else.  If Jack were truly so afraid of Dean to the point that this worried Sam only about Jack hurting someone else, I think we would have seen more of Jacks random outbursts around Dean.  I also think there are some instances with Sam where he is trying to make Jack feel more comfortable in ways that Jack wouldn't understand at this point.  Like by offering Jack the bed.  

 

Just because Sam feels 'guilt free' or 'purified' at the moment, that doesn't mean he doesn't remember what it felt like to hold powers that were given to him by a dark force..... or to be used for dark purposes.  Being afraid and scared of those purposes and desperately not wanting to go down that road.  He can still feel empathetic towards Jack because although the situations are different, he knows the fear involved.

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I think when it comes to this show and it’s fandom that it is important for fans to realise there are real life related faith things and then there are the shows version of these things. For instance I personally am a Catholic, a faith which believes in angels and attributes some importance to them. However, on this show angels are often portrayed in a rather negative manner and the fandom discusss then negatively as a result. I don’t see this as disrespect towards me and my faith because I know they’re discussing the angels as seen on this show.

Very well said. I totally agree.

[Dobian]

7 hours ago, Reganne said:

I think if Sam solely wanted to use him to get their mother, I don't think he would be putting emphasis on the possibility of Jack being good to Dean.  Perhaps the reason is because of Sam's experience with having his own sets of powers and a possible dark destiny in his past.

The show is simply recycling the tired trope of Sam's philosophy that you have to look at each individual on their own merits versus Dean's philosophy that a monster is a monster is a monster.

 

7 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I think when it comes to this show and it’s fandom that it is important for fans to realize there are real life related faith things and then there are the shows version of these things. For instance I personally am a Catholic, a faith which believes in angels and attributes some importance to them. However, on this show angels are often portrayed in a rather negative manner and the fandom discuss then negatively as a result. I don’t see this as disrespect towards me and my faith because I know they’re discussing the angels as seen on this show. I’m sure that is what @catrox14 meant too. She wasn’t trying to disrespect the Jewish faith, but simply referring to her dislike of the way the show has introduced their version of the Shedim. 

All this show has ever done is use Judeo-Christian based themes/symbols/imagery, not actually delved into the religions themselves.  The Supernatural universe is a Judeo-Christian one because they wanted the overarching story to be about Heaven versus Hell.  But the actual depictions of this ongoing battle are completely made up and most of the time are about as deep as an action movie or cartoon.

[MysteryGuest]

As I've said before, I'm enjoying the dynamic of Jack with Sam and Dean.  With the exception of a few clumsy lines by the writers, I think both of their positions in regard to Jack are pretty clear and reasonable.  Sam wants to give him the benefit of the doubt, partly because it's his nature to do so, partly because he's hoping Jack can help them find Mary, and partly because he sees himself in Jack to some degree.  I don't need to see Sam regressing back to where he feels tainted and wonders if Dean still sees him as a monster.  There's no basis for that and it's been done to death.  

Dean's reaction to Jack has also been pretty normal for him.  Jack's the unknown, mega-powerful son of Satan...I'd be pretty wary myself, and I haven't experienced what Sam and Dean have with angels and demons.  He knows that if Jack is evil, it will be on them to destroy him.  Just like it would have been on him to kill his own brother, had things gone differently.  We don't need any artificial angst between Sam and Dean over this.  We all know the back story of these characters, so I hope they don't feel the need to hit us over the head with it.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

8 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I think when it comes to this show and it’s fandom that it is important for fans to realize there are real life related faith things and then there are the shows version of these things. For instance I personally am a Catholic, a faith which believes in angels and attributes some importance to them. However, on this show angels are often portrayed in a rather negative manner and the fandom discuss then negatively as a result. I don’t see this as disrespect towards me and my faith because I know they’re discussing the angels as seen on this show. I’m sure that is what @catrox14 meant too. She wasn’t trying to disrespect the Jewish faith, but simply referring to her dislike of the way the show has introduced their version of the Shedim. 

Did the show explicitly state they were the shedim of Jewish lore? I don't recall them saying one way or another.

I was not intending to disrespect any faith. I was just being stupid and making up a name that was funny to me because I thought it was  cheesy and IMO poor CGI introduction of another monster that sounds like a redux of the Leviathan.

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Did the show explicitly state they were the shedim of Jewish lore? I don't recall them saying one way or another.

I was not intending to disrespect any faith. I was just being stupid and making up a name that was funny to me because I thought it was  cheesy and IMO poor CGI introduction of another monster that sounds like a redux of the Leviathan.

FWIW, the shedim are not by any means a core part of Jewish faith. I'm positive that most Jews have never heard the term (I'm fairly observant, and my reaction was "Hmm...that sounds familiar/like Hebrew - let me look it up). The word comes up twice in the Old Testament, both times in the negative context of sacrifices made to apparently demonic creatures. Otherwise, it is a part of Jewish folklore.

So, shedim aren't really part of Jewish theology at all. It would be more accurate to say that ancient Israelites believed in demons and other supernatural creatures, which is reflected in a couple of mentions of them in sacred writings. Lots of things are mentioned in the Torah (including, by the way, Azazel and nephilim; in both cases, it isn't entirely clear what these entities are, but the ideas that Azazel is a demon and nephilim are the children of mortals and angels reflect common interpretations); not all are holy. 

As a Jew with some knowledge of Hebrew, I'm much more offended by the use of the plural word "nephilim" as a singular :)  One "nephilim" should be a "nephil," or a "nephilah" for a female. It is like nails scraping a chalkboard every time I hear it. 

If I got upset about heresy, on the other hand, I couldn't watch the show at all! 

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

FWIW, the shedim are not by any means a core part of Jewish faith. I'm positive that most Jews have never heard the term (I'm fairly observant, and my reaction was "Hmm...that sounds familiar/like Hebrew - let me look it up). The word comes up twice in the Old Testament, both times in the negative context of sacrifices made to apparently demonic creatures. Otherwise, it is a part of Jewish folklore.

So, shedim aren't really part of Jewish theology at all. It would be more accurate to say that ancient Israelites believed in demons and other supernatural creatures, which is reflected in a couple of mentions of them in sacred writings. Lots of things are mentioned in the Torah (including, by the way, Azazel and nephilim; in both cases, it isn't entirely clear what these entities are, but the ideas that Azazel is a demon and nephilim are the children of mortals and angels reflect common interpretations); not all are holy. 

As a Jew with some knowledge of Hebrew, I'm much more offended by the use of the plural word "nephilim" as a singular :)  One "nephilim" should be a "nephil," or a "nephilah" for a female. It is like nails scraping a chalkboard every time I hear it. 

If I got upset about heresy, on the other hand, I couldn't watch the show at all! 

Thanks for the information! Always like learning new things. SPN is generally heretical about most religions as I see it. LOL. I'm not a religious person but even I was like "Whooaa they made God bisexual!" which I suspect rankled some viewers for sure.

[lmdreamer]

Also what ever happened to "being a monster is a choice?" how many times does this lesson need to be learned?