S13.E02: The Rising Son

[Diane]

WHAT EVIL THIS WAY COMES… — Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) begin to explore what Jack (Alexander Calvert) is capable of doing with his powers. An unexpected visit from Donatello (guest star Keith Szarbajka) alerts the boys to the fact that Jack will need more protection than the Winchesters can provide. There is a new Prince of Hell in town, Asmodeus (guest star Jeffrey Vincent Parise), and with Lucifer (Mark Pellegrino) out of the picture, he sets his sights set on Jack. Writer: Brad Bucknerand Eugenie Ross-Leming, Director:Thomas Wright

[catrox14]

[Mick Lady]

34 minutes late.! But you never fail catrox, don't ever change!

[Pondlass1]

Bloody commercials!!!!!

[Jediknight]

I like Jack so far.  Don't have him go evil, have him take over Heaven,  or take over Hell in a manner where he has to maintain a balance with Heaven.

Not a fan of Dean being a complete douche about Jack.  At least let him have some faith that the kid will come through, and not be evil.

[ILoveReading]

I'm over My 3 dads.  This doesn't even feel like Supernatural.

Please have Jack go evil just so we can get rid of him.

[Bobcatkitten]

I liked it but two introductory episodes is enough. I need a hunt; something normal to bring me back to the show; some sort of throwback. 

[Katy M]

@Jediknight, I think we saw at the end that he did have a little bit of faith. Or at least hope.

I am going to unapologetically say that I love Lucifer.  I know nobody else does.  So, I won't say anyting more about him.  I was annoyed by the fistfight, though. REally?  And, I'm glad that Lucifer wants Mary for a reason other than Nephilim breeding.  Whew!

Donatello, fun as usual.  I think I like Asmodeus.  Can't decide yet.  He's not dead, right?  He just did the demon version of running away?

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm over My 3 dads.  This doesn't even feel like Supernatural.

Please have Jack go evil just so we can get rid of him.

I agree 100%.  When he was missing, I was like, YES!  Now, Asmodeus can raise him off-screen to be evil and we'll have some kind of big showdown at the end, and maybe some medium showdowns in the middle.  I don't want to watch Jack be raised.  At least send him off with Donatello or something?  Get him off-screen for now.

[Pondlass1]

I guess we can't discuss the episode yet, but on first viewing I really enjoyed it.  I have to watch several times, tho, to know what's going on.  I get distracted (like Dean wearing a Henley) and miss important vital stuff.

Hope they're not going to drag out the 'is he or isn't he' Jack thing, tho.  That will get old quick.

[catrox14]

#TeamMichael

Dean being a total asshole to Jack, which I'm not that annoyed about but it might be cool if they let Dean just have his opinion and be wrong. I'm fine with that. But what I'm not fine with is Sam saying that Dean's wires get crossed in his brain. That's fucking bullshit. Dean has good goddamn reason to not trust Jack because he's half Lucifer. I'm actively insulted at that characterization of Dean.

I am so okay with Dean telling Jack if the time comes he'll be the one that kills him. I really am. Jack knows where he stands. 

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I am so okay with Dean telling Jack if the time comes he'll be the one that kills him. I really am. Jack knows where he stands. 

My only problem with DEan saying that, is he has no idea how to kill him.  But, hopefully he'll come up with something.

[Jeddah]

Jack is doing a good job of making me feel bad for him. He’s so lost and confused. I’m curious about where this storyline goes.

That was one underwhelming Michael vs Lucifer fight.

I don’t know whose fake Southern accent annoys me more; Benny or Asmodeus.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

#TeamMichael

Dean being a total asshole to Jack, which I'm not that annoyed about but it might be cool if they let Dean just have his opinion and be wrong. I'm fine with that. But what I'm not fine with is Sam saying that Dean's wires get crossed in his brain. That's fucking bullshit. Dean has good goddamn reason to not trust Jack because he's half Lucifer. I'm actively insulted at that characterization of Dean.

I am so okay with Dean telling Jack if the time comes he'll be the one that kills him. I really am. Jack knows where he stands. 

I was going to post, but I agree with every word here, so I'll just +1

I never had any faith that Dabb & Co could handle Dean's doubt and grief with any finesse, and they proved me right. Making the two brothers so OTT Black and Supersensitive White does neither of them any favours at all, IMO. It makes me want to slap Dean and actively dislike Sam. Blech.

[ILoveReading]

I think at the end, part of Dean wants to believe that Jack can be good but he's not in the right head space because the lose of Cas, Crowley and Mary won't let him have that hope.   Jensen is really great with the non verbals and his little pauses and tone seemed to convey this.

In his experience good things don't happen to them.  So, right now he can't see past this which is coloring his thinking of Jack.

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But what I'm not fine with is Sam saying that Dean's wires get crossed in his brain. That's fucking bullshit. Dean has good goddamn reason to not trust Jack because he's half Lucifer. I'm actively insulted at that characterization of Dean.

This is precisely why I was dreading this storyline.  Because I felt they were going to take Dean's legitimate concerns, and that he was wary of Jack because they are dealing with something dangerous and make it about Dean just being a stubborn meany. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by ILoveReading

[MysteryGuest]

I like the actor who plays Jack, and I enjoy his interactions with Sam and Dean.  I didn't think I would, but I do.  I could deal with a story line of how they help him learn to control his powers and become something good, although I still don't know what the end game would be.  Send him to Heaven to rule in God's absence?  Honestly, I have no idea.

What I am sick to death of are the scenes in Hell.  At least with Crowley we had one character we liked down there, but now that he's gone we're left with nothing but the new Colonel Sanders and a bunch of whiny demons. So they ran out of plot lines for Mark S., and their solution is to just replace him with another actor and shoot the same boring scenes?  Ok.

I'm also not the least bit enthused by the AU and the battle between Lucifer and Michael.  Lucifer is boring and Michael is equally boring.  I really had no desire for them to bring Michael back, but if they're going to go there, then wouldn't you at least bring back a Michael that has some connection to our story?  Again, I'm in no way championing for a Michael/Dean redo, but I just don't see the point of this.  I know it's early yet, and maybe they have something interesting planned, but I think it's more likely just a case of lack of any originality on the writers' parts.  There are so many ways this season could have gone, why all the retreads?

So basically, I'm enjoying Sam, Dean and Jack and the rest, no so much.  I hope that changes.

[SueB]

That was deliciously complicated.  Jack definitely has the murderous puppy thing down pat.  I am truly sympathetic to him while completely agreeing with both he and Dean -- he's going to hurt someone some day.  This can only end in tears.  And I love Sam in this episode.  He's so stuck between the devil's child and the force of nature that is Dean. He definitely wants to believe but I feel he's had to over compensate for Dean's conviction to not give Jack a chance.  

Lots of raw statements too.  'Dean hates me.'   He's not wrong. But it's also not personal.  In fact the last thing Dean wants is to stop and get to know the kid.  He (Dean) is going to fight this the whole way.  And he's in such a dark place.  

I love Donatello going with the 'What Would Mr Rogers Do' morality guide.  Perfect choice.  

Asmodeus is probably much more of a threat than Crowley so I get the swap out, even though I miss Crowley.  And Lucifer is just not a good substitute.  Yes he's got the snark and that's entertaining but there's nothing about Luci to root for.  

Looking forward to Micheal giving him a beat down. 

 

Still haunted by Jack just stabbing himself.  To feel pain?  To see if he can kill himself?  Its disturbing.  I almost feel like Dean saying he'd kill him was a mercy.  Maybe Jack will feel like Dean is a safety net.  I'm good with that.  

 

And I wonder if killing Jack bothers Dean because he knows this is NOT what Cas would want.  I think Dean ended the episode less sure because of that scene.  

Edited October 20, 2017 by SueB
Because autocorrect was a pita

[Morrigan2575]

I'm digging Jack. I loved that he was trying to emulate Dean. Not sure if it was a reaction to Dean's dislike (I'll act like him so he'll like me better) some odd left over connection to Castiel or simply because he viewed Dean as the leader or Alpha. Whatever it was it amused me, especially because Sam and Dean caught on pretty quick.

[ILoveReading]

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I never had any faith that Dabb & Co could handle Dean's doubt and grief with any finesse, and they proved me right. Making the two brothers so OTT Black and Supersensitive White does neither of them any favours at all, IMO. It makes me want to slap Dean and actively dislike Sam. Blech.

Neither Sam or Dean's reaction to Jack feels organic.  It feels exactly like what it is.  Forced melodrama.  Sam looks like an idiot because no matter how much you want to believe the fact that Jack is dangerous and has the potential to be evil needs to be discussed.   It's making Dean look too rigid and inflexible that he won't even consider that Jack might be good when it has happened in the past.   It's not about Dean having "his wires crossed."  That makes it sound like Dean's concerns can't possibly be legitimate. 

I feel like both characters are long past this all or nothing approach.

Both characters are coming across as petty since it seems like neither wants to consider the others view point. 

At least at the end, Dean took the knife out of Jacks hands, and took it out of the room.  If he was as jerkish as this ep was trying to make him out he wouldn't have done that.  Dean did say "if you go evil I'll try to kill" rather than When.  So bless Jensen for trying at least. 

One thing I find these writers really struggle with is when they have to layer stories and deal with multiple things at once.  As expected Dean's grief got pushed to the backgound and basically dismissed.   Because it wasn't Dean hated jack, he was struggling because of Loss.  That was what I expected Sam to say.  Not this BS about Dean getting his wires crossed.

*my apologies if this post is to much bitch/jerk.  It's not intended to be but since the whole episode was basically one big Sam vs Dean set up its hard to not go there.  If its crossed to far over the line, let me know and I'll move my post. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I was going to post, but I agree with every word here, so I'll just +1

I never had any faith that Dabb & Co could handle Dean's doubt and grief with any finesse, and they proved me right. Making the two brothers so OTT Black and Supersensitive White does neither of them any favours at all, IMO. It makes me want to slap Dean and actively dislike Sam. Blech.

I thought for sure when Sam was talking to Jack, he was going to go with, "Dean is having a hard time right now because Castiel is dead and our mom is gone. He's grieving". Like why wouldn't Sam take the chance to explain grief to Jack, but NOPE, it was basically Sam saying that Dean is ALWAYS like this. I'm SO PISSED about that. I'm not even gonna front.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I'm going to need a second viewing to process this one a little more.  There was a lot that went down.  Plus, I had a friend watching with me who doesn't watch SPN and she had a lot of questions and comments, so I missed a good bit of some of the conversations.  Brief thoughts:

• Asmodeus is...interesting.  Maybe.  I don't know.   Jury's still out on him.
• I liked seeing Donatello again!  But I guess he still doesn't have his soul?  (One of the conversations I missed.)  I caught the part about  WWMR do.  I don't know - that whole, 'he's soulless, but still pretty okay, when even Len who was also a good guy, knew it was only a matter of time before he did something bad.  And well, let's not even talk about Sam, right? - is odd.  I'm not sure I like what they're trying to do with it.  Couldn't they have just said he got his soul back, but didn't know how?  I'd have been okay with that. 
• I still like Jack.
• So AU Mikey wants Lucifer alive.  Probably for the same reason Luc wants Mary alive - to get to our world.  He wrecked his with his apocalypse and now wants a do over on Earth Prime.  Great.  
• I did not like the use of the rapist-hunter.  I wish the show hadn't gone for the oldest clichéd trope ever.  The AU is still the most boring part of the story.

Basically: not as good as the premier, but I think it set up a lot of interesting stories.  We'll see how they all pan out.  

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I liked seeing Donatello again!  But I guess he still doesn't have his soul?  (One of the conversations I missed.)  I caught the part about  WWMR do.  I don't know - that whole, 'he's soulless, but still pretty okay, when even Len who was also a good guy, knew it was only a matter of time before he did something bad.  And well, let's not even talk about Sam, right? - is odd.  I'm not sure I like what they're trying to do with it.  Couldn't they have just said he got his soul back, but didn't know how?  I'd have been okay with that. 

I'm just pretending he has a soul. Because I can't handle soullessness.  I find it stupid every time they do it.  And, yeah, I was just hoping they'd say that Amara barfed up everyone's souls back into their bodies.  Exactly like that.  Totally use the word barf.

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So AU Mikey wants Lucifer alive.  Probably for the same reason Luc wants Mary alive - to get to our world.  He wrecked his with his apocalypse and now wants a do over on Earth Prime.  Great.  

Lucifer doesn't want Mary to get into our world. He wants her once they're in our world to bargain for Jack.  But, I'm not sure why he's wandering all over the  place.  Does he have an escape plan?  What's the point of hurrying if you don't know where you're going.

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

The AU is still the most boring part of the story.

If they have to be in the AU where a Bobby exists, the least we can do is get Bobby onscreen. 

[Morrigan2575]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

• Asmodeus is...interesting.  Maybe.  I don't know.   Jury's still out on him.
•  

Same I kept going back and forth between amusement and annoyance. Not sure which will win in the end.

Quote

I liked seeing Donatello again!  But I guess he still doesn't have his soul?  (One of the conversations I missed.)  I caught the part about  WWMR do.  I don't know - that whole, 'he's soulless, but still pretty okay, when even Len who was also a good guy, knew it was only a matter of time before he did something bad.  And well, let's not even talk about Sam, right? - is odd.  I'm not sure I like what they're trying to do with it.  Couldn't they have just said he got his soul back, but didn't know how?  I'd have been okay with that. 

I'm glad they explained it. When he showed up I was all WTF?! Didn't Amara kill him?! 

Quote

So AU Mikey wants Lucifer alive.  Probably for the same reason Luc wants Mary alive - to get to our world.  He wrecked his with his apocalypse and now wants a do over on Earth Prime.  Great.  

 

Curious. I half wonder if Michael now wants Lucifer alive as a way to end the war? Everyone go back to the corners?

I was actually hoping it was Gabriel when he first landed and then when we saw his face I thought it as Rafael. I'm kind of excited that we're finally getting the Michael/Lucifer stuff.

[MysteryGuest]

I had an issue with the new monster, too (sorry...can't remember their name).  The Leviathans were supposed to be the evilest of the evil, then they topped that with the Darkness and now we have these new things which may never even come up again, but enough already.  They're just pulling stuff out of their hats at this point.

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I had an issue with the new monster, too (sorry...can't remember their name).  The Leviathans were supposed to be the evilest of the evil, then they topped that with the Darkness and now we have these new things which may never even come up again, but enough already.  They're just pulling stuff out of their hats at this point.

I was thinking the same thing about the new monsters ("Shadim?")

It's not their hats that they're pulling this crap from. :)

Edited October 20, 2017 by ahrtee

[ILoveReading]

Another really stupid line was Sam telling Dean that Jack was afraid of him.

WTF?  Jack is the most powerful creature in the universe he could end Dean with a snap of his fingers.

He may not know exactly how to take Dean but he never once came across as afraid of him. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm just pretending he has a soul. Because I can't handle soullessness.  I find it stupid every time they do it.  And, yeah, I was just hoping they'd say that Amara barfed up everyone's souls back into their bodies.  Exactly like that.  Totally use the word barf.

I like this.  I think I'm going to go with it too.  And I like barf.  That didn't come out right.  :)  I like thinking that Amara barfed up the souls.

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I had an issue with the new monster, too (sorry...can't remember their name).  

The only issue I had with the new monsters is the way Asmodeus painted Lucifer when he talked about them.  They were so dangerous that Satan Himself got mad when they were let out?  Why would Satan care?  This isn't the Lucifer that's been on the show all these years.  The 'poor misunderstood son' at the end of S11 was bad enough, but I really don't think I like the ret-conning of Lucifer I see coming.  

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

The only issue I had with the new monsters is the way Asmodeus painted Lucifer when he talked about them.  They were so dangerous that Satan Himself got mad when they were let out?  Why would Satan care?  This isn't the Lucifer that's been on the show all these years.  The 'poor misunderstood son' at the end of S11 was bad enough, but I really don't think I like the ret-conning of Lucifer I see coming.  

I actually wouldn't have minded that Lucifer was scared of them, if Asmodeus was also. But, the fact that Asmodeus was trying to bring them out again after stating that Lucifer was scared of them was beyond stupid, IMO.

13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Another really stupid line was Sam telling Dean that Jack was afraid of him.

WTF?  Jack is the most powerful creature in the universe he could end Dean with a snap of his fingers.

He may not know exactly how to take Dean but he never once came across as afraid of him. 

He may not be physically afraid of him. But, he's afraid of him in the sense that he doesn't think he likes him when he wants him to.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He may not be physically afraid of him. But, he's afraid of him in the sense that he doesn't think he likes him when he wants him to.

And because Jack is still basically a child.  Jesse, the anti-Christ was pretty powerful, but I bet he was still afraid of his father, whom he could have ended with a snap of his fingers also.  

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Not sure if it was a reaction to Dean's dislike (I'll act like him so he'll like me better) some odd left over connection to Castiel or simply because he viewed Dean as the leader or Alpha.

I think it was a combination of viewing Dean as the Alpha and wanting to make Dean like him. I liked that Jack gave Dean a little f/u with walking out the door and knocking to come back in.

[ZennyKenny]

It seems like (over these several seasons) the writers want to create a dynamic of "Dean protects Sam, but Sam helps Dean emotionally". 

The first problem with this is that Sam never grieves or is shown processing his emotions. Which makes no sense at all because he's so much more open about being emotional. 

The second problem is that this dynamic can't allow Dean to grow and mature emotionally, lest it become lopsided. Which really it already is because Sam's been given multiple opportunities on the series to show that he's grown beyond needing Dean to take care of him.

I guess what I'm saying is the show has far outgrown the original "we need each other" dynamic, and really needs to find new areas in which they can explore the brothers' relationship.

[catrox14]

I have a bad feeling that this SL is going to end up with Jack going dark side and it all get blamed on Dean for not giving Jack a chance. I can just see it now.

[gonzosgirrl]

49 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought for sure when Sam was talking to Jack, he was going to go with, "Dean is having a hard time right now because Castiel is dead and our mom is gone. He's grieving". Like why wouldn't Sam take the chance to explain grief to Jack, but NOPE, it was basically Sam saying that Dean is ALWAYS like this. I'm SO PISSED about that. I'm not even gonna front.

He not only didn't say any of that, he pretty much said Dean isn't wired right. I am so, so very tired of Sam talking down to Dean. The words are bad enough, and they are exacerbated by Jared's delivery of them, so exasperated and condescending. I actually don't mind the Jack story in theory, but this caricature of the brothers worst characteristics is wasting the potential (the IMO is implied here, yes?). And I absolutely could not care less about Marifer and the great, dusty AU.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He not only didn't say any of that, he pretty much said Dean isn't wired right.

Yup. That's why I'm so pissed about it. It's like I don't understand where they are going with this at all. It's bad for Dean and Sam!

[SueB]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yup. That's why I'm so pissed about it. It's like I don't understand where they are going with this at all. It's bad for Dean and Sam!

I don't think he's saying he's wired wrong. He's saying that anger and fear are getting mixed together.  I think that's reasonable accurate.  And he's trying to say Dean is taking his fear and turning it into an anger response.  So the 'crossed wires' are Dean responding to fear with anger.  It's not obvious to a newly created person but it makes sense to those of us who see that happen all the time.  

 

Is it possible they tried to make Sam say Dean is mentally not right?  That's a pretty big leap IMO. I think he's using a metaphor versus trying to explain a defective mental condition. 

[catrox14]

Just wanted to add, I do wonder how much Sam really likes Jack or is manipulating him to figure out his powers so he can get him to open a rift. Like I'm not saying Sam doesn't think Jack has goodness or could be good but everything Sam is asking him about is "What can he do for us", which is that really any better than Dean being all "We can't trust him".

[catrox14]

I don't know if BL is saying Dean is wired wrong but this is what Sam said

"Dean doesn't hate you. Sometimes the wires in Dean's head get crossed. And he gets frustrated and then he mixes frustration with anger...and fear."

So it's up to interpretation but this is from the writers who think it's in Dean's DNA to be a killer...so... make of it what you will.

But I will say this. IMO, Dean's wires don't get crossed. Dean does get frustrated. And Dean does get angry and Dean is afraid at times.  But  IMO the narrative is suggesting that Dean just doesn't have the emotional capacity to comprehend his own emotions and process them, which where I take issue. Dean knows what he thinks and feels.

Dean is grieving but his anger about Spawn has been in play since Spawn was known to exist. Dean's been on the kill Spawn train from the jump for the most part and was malleable to remove Spawn's grace until that super good person Kelly nixed it.

Dean being on don't trust and maybe kill Spawnifer train IS a legitimate position for him to hold because Jack is HALF LUCIFER and IMO it's disingenuous of the writers to imply that it's because Dean's wires are crossed. PFFFT. They can step off with that noise.

[Whodunnit]

Lucifer was an archangel  (good) who went dark side. Wouldn't Jack's powers be based on the original formula  (powerful and proud but not evil) version of Lucifer?

[catrox14]

Just another note. I think Dean was not threatening Jack at the end. I think he was telling him that IF he goes dark side, that Dean will take him out and IMO that's because Dean won't put that burden on Sam. 

[ahrtee]

There was also the brief (mostly aside) comment from Asmodeus when he said that Jack was not a child that implied (or did he say outright?) that he had *all the knowledge* already in him.  So he's not merely a clean slate who needs to be shown the right way.  I think he was implying that Jack has all of Lucifer's knowledge (and maybe memories) even though he can't access them (yet), just like he can't access his powers.  That's...disturbing.  

[Whodunnit]

To quote one of the imps in Hercules  (Disney):

If. If is good.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Whodunnit

[Lady Calypso]

So, since there's nothing really on for me during Thursdays at 8, I guess I'm in for the season, which is good, because at least there are some things I like.

I do like the Sam/Dean/Jack dynamic. This show is in its 13th season. They're bound to run out of ideas (see: new Big Bad replacing Mark S.) But I'm having fun with the boys with Jack. 

Dean has every right to be wary of Jack and just assume that he'll turn out to be bad. After seeing what they've seen, I think Dean's perfectly reasonable in expressing his cynicism over Jack being able to fight the darkness within himself. And yeah, I expect Jack will slip many times and that he could very well join the demons, especially if things don't go well with Dean and Sam for whatever reason. Dean is also dealing with the loss of Cas and their mom (oh, and I guess Crowley) so he's been going through a lot. The last thing he needs is more people dying, and I can see why he might want to find a way to eliminate Jack sooner rather than later. It's better to get rid of the imposing threat than hope for the small chance that it won't happen. 

It's also acceptable for Sam to hope for the best, to take Jack in and try to keep him on the side of good. Jack's basically an infant. He may have some knowledge of stuff deep down because he's this special child, but this goes into the nature vs nurture debate with children. Is someone ultimately influenced by their environment, or are they who they are because of genetics? So Sam wanting to teach Jack about being good instead of falling into evil is not the worst plan. Jack seems to want to be good, but he's still young and easily manipulated, so he's vulnerable. What Sam is trying to do is save Jack from his father and choose what is right. 

So yeah, I fully expect Jack to go evil but also to find a way back to the side of good at the end of the season. I do like Jack and Alexander Calvert is doing a pretty good job at showing Jack's layers and how vulnerable he really is, but how he can be good, despite how hard it'll be. 

It's also a new dynamic to see Sam and Dean take in a literal child. We don't have as much of that besides a one episode deal. I mean, I guess Cas is an example, in a way, with how new he was to Earth at first, but Jack's a different type of new for them. And, so far, the dynamic is working very well for me. I mean, I found it incredibly endearing that Jack really wanted Dean to like him. The scene with him mimicking Dean's actions was pretty funny. And I respect that Dean told Jack upfront that he'll kill him if necessary. It could backfire on him later on if Jack goes full evil, but I could also see that being respected by Jack as the struggle between good and evil within him grows stronger. Jack stabbing himself over and over to presumably find a way to kill himself really goes to show that he's trying to be different than what Dean expects of him.

Oh...other things happened in this episode, I guess. The AU world is pretty uninteresting for me. I mean, good for the show for giving a reason as to why Lucifer isn't just killing Mary right off, but I simply don't care about these two. AU Michael only makes me wonder about Adam, which I really should just accept that they'll probably not bringing Jake Abel back anytime soon.  

New villain Asmodeus annoys me. Nope, don't care. I also don't want any Hell scenes like that. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

There was also the brief (mostly aside) comment from Asmodeus when he said that Jack was not a child that implied (or did he say outright?) that he had *all the knowledge* already in him.  So he's not merely a clean slate who needs to be shown the right way.  I think he was implying that Jack has all of Lucifer's knowledge (and maybe memories) even though he can't access them (yet), just like he can't access his powers.  That's...disturbing.  

Oh I forgot about that. Jack also said in the last episode that "I was my mother", so this implies he's got the ability to possess in a way without consent.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh I forgot about that. Jack also said in the last episode that "I was my mother", so this implies he's got the ability to possess in a way without consent.

I'm not sure about non-con possession (he is still an Archangel, though a new improved model.)  And I'm pretty sure by being pregnant his mother gave (implied) consent to being possessed :)  

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not sure about non-con possession (he is still an Archangel, though a new improved model.)  And I'm pretty sure by being pregnant his mother gave (implied) consent to being possessed :)  

That's tricky. She never gave consent to being impregnated by Lucifer. Jack seemed to be able to keep her alive even when she tried to kill herself to kill him. So...how much consent is there for her? I'm not arguing just thinking it through.

[AwesomO4000]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But  IMO the narrative is suggesting that Dean just doesn't have the emotional capacity to comprehend his own emotions and process them, which where I take issue. Dean knows what he thinks and feels.

Comprehending and expressing can be two different things, though. I'm remembering back to when Dean was grieving John. It came out as anger then also. Dean understood that he was grieving, but that still didn't stop things from coming out as anger and in that case violence against his Baby.

When my sister and I were little, my Grampa had a "wires crossed" type reaction in a similar vein. If something happened where one of us got hurt or was in some sort of danger of injury, he'd be afraid for us... but it would come out as yelling. As you can imagine, that sometimes made the situation worse, because then even if we hadn't gotten hurt from say a tumble, Grampa yelling might start the waterworks anyway. Eventually we figured out Grampa didn't mean it - he was just scared for us and frustrated that he wasn't able to stop us from taking the tumble in the first place and it came out as yelling - but it was confusing until that realization. ; )

Just now, catrox14 said:

I think Dean was not threatening Jack at the end. I think he was telling him that IF he goes dark side, that Dean will take him out and IMO that's because Dean won't put that burden on Sam. 

I was actually thinking that Dean meant it to be reassuring to Jack - so Jack didn't have to worry. I almost expected Jack to say thank you... Shades of Sam wanting Dean to reassure him that if he went evil, that Dean would take him out before he did anything awful.

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

The only issue I had with the new monsters is the way Asmodeus painted Lucifer when he talked about them.  They were so dangerous that Satan Himself got mad when they were let out?  Why would Satan care?  This isn't the Lucifer that's been on the show all these years.  The 'poor misunderstood son' at the end of S11 was bad enough, but I really don't think I like the ret-conning of Lucifer I see coming.  

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I actually wouldn't have minded that Lucifer was scared of them, if Asmodeus was also. But, the fact that Asmodeus was trying to bring them out again after stating that Lucifer was scared of them was beyond stupid, IMO.

I would think it's more Lucifer's ego. Lucifer wouldn't want anything released that 1) might be more intimidating than him 2) he might not be able to completely control.

Lucifer may want to get rid of humans, but I think he's more of a hands on type of guy. It sounds like these whatever they ares are difficult to control and unpredictable. I don't think Lucifer would appreciate either of those things.

A for Asmodeus bringing them out... I have a feeling that his "I'll keep the seat warm for him" is a ruse. He knows Lucifer is gone right now, so he wants to raise these things as an FU to Lucifer and to maybe get  a hold for himself... For me it's 50/50 at this point if Asmodeus' intent is to get in good with Lucifer and/or negotiate a better position for himself or if he wants to take over hell for himself and dig in his heels for when Lucifer comes back that he can fight him.

[ahrtee]

51 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

So yeah, I fully expect Jack to go evil but also to find a way back to the side of good at the end of the season. I do like Jack and Alexander Calvert is doing a pretty good job at showing Jack's layers and how vulnerable he really is, but how he can be good, despite how hard it'll be. 

It's also a new dynamic to see Sam and Dean take in a literal child. We don't have as much of that besides a one episode deal. I mean, I guess Cas is an example, in a way, with how new he was to Earth at first, but Jack's a different type of new for them. And, so far, the dynamic is working very well for me. I mean, I found it incredibly endearing that Jack really wanted Dean to like him. The scene with him mimicking Dean's actions was pretty funny. And I respect that Dean told Jack upfront that he'll kill him if necessary. It could backfire on him later on if Jack goes full evil, but I could also see that being respected by Jack as the struggle between good and evil within him grows stronger. Jack stabbing himself over and over to presumably find a way to kill himself really goes to show that he's trying to be different than what Dean expects of him.

Oh...other things happened in this episode, I guess. The AU world is pretty uninteresting for me. I mean, good for the show for giving a reason as to why Lucifer isn't just killing Mary right off, but I simply don't care about these two. AU Michael only makes me wonder about Adam, which I really should just accept that they'll probably not bringing Jake Abel back anytime soon.  

New villain Asmodeus annoys me. Nope, don't care. I also don't want any Hell scenes like that. 

I'm not 100% convinced that Jack will go evil (though I'm pretty sure the writers will keep seesawing to create much angst with Sam v. Dean until we know for sure.)  I think the fact that Jack saved "his friends" from Asmodeus without even thinking about it shows good instincts, though he was about to let loose the evillest evil that ever evilled (again) just out of sheer naivete and good intentions (like Cas let loose the Leviathan.  Like Sam set Lucifer free  Like...well, you get the picture.)  But the point is, he stopped himself, which IMO is a good sign.  So I think, unless something happens to trigger the "evil" response (Dean trying to kill him?  Lucifer mind control?) he might stay good.  I'm also pretty sure they'll keep hinting at going evil

Spoiler

till episode 8, "The Scorpion and the Frog," where the story behind the title implies he gives in to nature, but maybe they'll flip it to show that nurture has overcome it.  

I actually did like Jack, much more than expected, and found his mimicking Dean as, yes, endearing.  And that's a word I *never* expected to use in this SL.  

About the rest:  Yes.  No.  Don't want Asmodeus as the new sheriff in town.  Don't want any more hell scenes, especially with nattily-dressed administrative demons.  I thought Lucifer was actually kind of funny (he was playing the annoying-rather-than-dangerous Lucifer of Sam's season 7 hallucinations rather than season 11's whiny child Lucifer or season 12's scheming and vindictive Lucifer) but I'm well over him, and found Mary particularly annoying tonight.  

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's tricky. She never gave consent to being impregnated by Lucifer. Jack seemed to be able to keep her alive even when she tried to kill herself to kill him. So...how much consent is there for her? I'm not arguing just thinking it through.

But once she knew, she opted not only to keep the child, but not de-power him.  She also saw it as a wonderful thing that he wouldn't let her die.  So that seems pretty much like consent to me.

Edited October 20, 2017 by ahrtee
Must put the correct word in instead of repeating the word before.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Comprehending and expressing can be two different things, though. I'm remembering back to when Dean was grieving John. It came out as anger then also. Dean understood that he was grieving, but that still didn't stop things from coming out as anger and in that case violence against his Baby.

Dean expresses his emotions all the time.  Anger is a normal part of the grieving process.  IMO Dean was expressing that anger pretty clearly to God when he yelled at/prayed to Chuck for help and got no answer and punched the sign.

23 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But once she knew, she opted not only to keep the child, but not de-power him.  She also saw it as a wonderful thing that he wouldn't let her die.  So that seems pretty much like consent to me.

How much of that was her really thinking that or Jack's influence over her? Kind of like that weird "Paradise" thing from Cas that was never heard out of Cas' mouth before?

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How much of that was her really thinking that or Jack's influence over her? Kind of like that weird "Paradise" thing from Cas that was never heard out of Cas' mouth before?

In the immortal words of Spock (or William James, depending on how obsessive you are with fact-checking), "a difference which makes no difference is no difference."  She believed it was her own choice, and we have no way of knowing if it was influenced or not.  She was happy and at peace.  And it won't make any difference to anyone now.  

[flyinghigh]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I like the actor who plays Jack, and I enjoy his interactions with Sam and Dean.  I didn't think I would, but I do.  I could deal with a story line of how they help him learn to control his powers and become something good,

I too never thought I would like Jack, but I do, in both the episodes.  when Asomendus had Jack I was totally rooting for Sam and Dean to reach there before anything happens.  

Jensen/Jared/Alex - watchable trio.

The scene where Jack is imulating Dean - hilarious. Specially Dean's reaction to it.

I think sooner or later Dean will come around accepting him as part of the family.

Though I am 100% sure sooner or later writers will take Jack into totally evil space, I am so waiting for Jack to have moral conflict - realizing that there is goodness in him that can overcome evil. He is a very interesting character - IMO.

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I think at the end, part of Dean wants to believe that Jack can be good but he's not in the right head space because the lose of Cas, Crowley and Mary won't let him have that hope.   Jensen is really great with the non verbals and his little pauses and tone seemed to convey this.

I agree with you. At present Dean is mourning - so many times now he has used the tone of finality when speaks of Mary and Cas with Sam-  his head space is not letting him really see Jack for what he is. But I have faith in Dean -  he will see Jack and then he would be the  one speaking for Jack -  to protect Jack at all costs. Plus he will support Sam's decision - I think. Anyways - IMO, Dean will come around trusting and making Jack part of the team.

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Because it wasn't Dean hated jack, he was struggling because of Loss.  That was what I expected Sam to say.  Not this BS about Dean getting his wires crossed.

About that wire crossing line - I do wish Sam had been given something else to say . 

36 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

So yeah, I fully expect Jack to go evil but also to find a way back to the side of good at the end of the season. I do like Jack and Alexander Calvert is doing a pretty good job at showing Jack's layers and how vulnerable he really is, but how he can be good, despite how hard it'll be. 

I like Jack - and the actor Alexander Calvert is doing a good job - portraying his vulnerability, confusion, innocence - I really liked the flashback that they showed of Kelly he telling him how much he is loved. The actor played the scene so well.

This episode deserves a second viewing. 

good episode .

[ZennyKenny]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

But I will say this. IMO, Dean's wires don't get crossed. Dean does get frustrated. And Dean does get angry and Dean is afraid at times.  But  IMO the narrative is suggesting that Dean just doesn't have the emotional capacity to comprehend his own emotions and process them, which where I take issue. Dean knows what he thinks and feels.

^THIS!

Why are all the writers stuck in neutral when it comes to the emotional aspect of Dean? This whole "Dean has trouble grieving" character development arc should have been finished with season TWO!! It can't be character development if he's never allowed to develop.