S03.E06: A. Malcolm

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, nodorothyparker said:

Madame Jeanne is skeptical enough when book Jamie shows up at her brothel door with a woman he suddenly introduces as his wife too.  Because it's not a place a man would ever think to take a respectable married woman, if that's who she really is.  I'm not reading any particular jealousy or much of anything else into that. 

I know. But after the first look, and I think even in the buik, Gabaldon writes it that Madame Jeanne was confused, but accepted what Jamie told her. In the show? Her repeated..."...wife!" came off (at least to me) as scoffing and still not believing Jamie. Her expression was like, do you expect me to believe this obvious lie? But potato, potahto.

[Nidratime]

Quote

I do find it very tiresome that men want to rape Claire the moment they see her. I understand full well that women were in danger so much of the time in that era and that many (not all) men were completely out of control in that respect...and that the omnipresent threat of being raped and killed serves to heighten and intensify the drama of the story, as well as providing ample opportunities for Jamie to rescue Claire or for Claire to demonstrate her cunning, but it wears thin to me after a while. 

I'm not sure that threat to Claire was particular to her. I think he would have said that to practically any woman who walked through the door and told him to get out -- although I wouldn't have been surprised if Madame Jeanne would've pulled a pistol or dagger or something.

And, to be honest, after hearing about all the attacks on women *today* by just one man -- directors, producers, politicians, media, you name it -- the thought goes through my head, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[nodorothyparker]

Claire describes Jeanne as looking like she doesn't fully believe Jamie but goes along with it since that's obviously the story he's going with.  I've never had trouble with characterization given that he's just dragged his wife into a freaking brothel.

[AD55]

So I rewatched the episode last night with a friend, and I liked it better the second time. For me the best parts were the cold open and the small character bits: Claire's meeting with Fergus, Ian popping in, first looking shocked to see a prostitute in his papist uncle's room, then attempting to feign sophistication, and finally his "whoa, this will be complicated, look at the time, gotta go" expression when he finds out the woman is Claire.

I was happy with the reunion at the printshop. I think it was enough that Jamie fainted. I don't think Jamie sobbing and falling apart would have played well on screen. It didn't ring quite true to me in the book, not that it wouldn't be a normal reaction, just not for Jamie. But perhaps I'm projecting. I'm Irish. We stuff our emotions and then keel over from heart attacks in our mid-50s.

I didn't have any problem at all with Jamie mentioning Willie. It seemed perfectly natural to me. Like others, I thought Jamie blurted (perhaps here's the loss of control we didn't get by seeing him huddled on the floor sobbing) because of his relief at finally being able to tell someone (think how this must prey on him daily). This was combined with a mix of emotions at his not having been part of Bree's life. Not jealousy exactly (though maybe toward Frank). More not having gotten to the point where he can even formulate questions about her life (how long has it been since Claire popped into the printshop? 20 minutes tops?)  and perhaps a small part of him doesn't want to be an object of pity for missing out on his daughter's life or for Claire to feel guilty that she got to raise Bree and he didn't (those two things are written all over Cat's face). In other words, he wants Claire to know that he has experienced a little of the bittersweet joy of having a child. I realize I'm reading a lot into it, but these are the thoughts that occurred to me while watching. The mention of Faith clinched it. She's the child they both know. But seeing the pictures of Bree in modern garb, which make concrete that Bree's life is in a time and a place that he can never know or even imagine, must have felt a little like looking at a space alien. I think it's sweet that he asks for her first word, and not "what's she like?" That's one of the milestones, like first steps, that parents care about so much they record them.

I hope they're not going to start using voiceover again on a regular basis for obvious stuff. It barely works for me if we need crucial information that only Claire has and which can't be related in any way other than interior monologue. I don't need a first-person narrator to explain that they're catching up over dinner. What else would they be doing? And Claire lying on the bed all exposed after sex didn't ring true for me. Even though she had just been overcome with passion, I think that the initial shyness would have returned. It would have seemed more natural to me if she had pulled the sheet up. I mention this not to nitpick but because that choice struck me as bordering on exploitation of the female body. On the other hand, I loved how awkward they were initially. I am glad they included the bit about Jamie smashing Claire's nose.

Still hate the rape plot.

[FnkyChkn34]

59 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

She shouldn't have been out of the room in the first place. Jamie told her not to go anywhere (which, sure, Claire could've interpreted as not to go outside the brothel itself). The intruder might've broken into the room regardless, but at least if Claire had stayed in there with the door locked, that might've deterred the guy. But I get why she left the room - she was hungry and probably a little curious. I do find it very tiresome that men want to rape Claire the moment they see her. I understand full well that women were in danger so much of the time in that era and that many (not all) men were completely out of control in that respect...and that the omnipresent threat of being raped and killed serves to heighten and intensify the drama of the story, as well as providing ample opportunities for Jamie to rescue Claire or for Claire to demonstrate her cunning, but it wears thin to me after a while. 

 

I was going to post about this scene anyway, so I'll post a few thoughts in response to this comment if that's ok.

Jamie easily could have meant the building, not just the room, which is basically what I thought when he said it.  And Pauline didn't bring breakfast back like Jamie asked, so of course Claire was hungry and had to fend for herself, which meant finding the kitchen or dining room and therefore leaving the small bedroom.  Also, Claire fell back asleep right away when Jamie left, and he left without locking the door (because it could only be locked from the inside).  Sure, she could have locked it after Ian left, but she's on the top floor of a brothel where Jamie and the madame have a good business relationship - I probably wouldn't think I was in any danger either.

And the guy threatened to rape her because she's a woman alone in a brothel.  Isn't that what he thought she was there for?  Once he learned she was Jamie's wife, I took it more as he threatened to kill her, and never even considered "rape" until I came here to read the comments.  Yes, he talked about f-ing, but he also held a knife to her throat which is more of a death threat to me.

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Once he learned she was Jamie's wife, I took it more as he threatened to kill her, and never even considered "rape" until I came here to read the comments.  Yes, he talked about f-ing, but he also held a knife to her throat which is more of a death threat to me.

Well damn. I totally didn't see the knife both times I watched! Will have to go back and watch it again! I thought he just grabbed her jaw and was squeezing it hard. Hence Claire's gasp.

And speaking of their room--where did those thick gold and whatever other color blankets? duvets? come from? The night before, all they had were those ivory sheets! Hee.

[FnkyChkn34]

2 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Well damn. I totally didn't see the knife both times I watched! Will have to go back and watch it again! I thought he just grabbed her jaw and was squeezing it hard. Hence Claire's gasp.

And speaking of their room--where did those thick gold and whatever other color blankets? duvets? come from? The night before, all they had were those ivory sheets! Hee.

Well now I'm questioning myself, but I could have sworn he had a knife.  And then in the previews, she's holding a knife.

The duvets were on the bed in the "I broke my nose" scene I think - then they must have just thrown them on the floor...

[Atlanta]

45 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Madame Jeanne is skeptical enough when book Jamie shows up at her brothel door with a woman he suddenly introduces as his wife too.  Because it's not a place a man would ever think to take a respectable married woman, if that's who she really is.  I'm not reading any particular jealousy or much of anything else into that. 

Claire's out roaming around a freaking brothel in her shift even though she has a still perfectly intact dress.  It's actually not unreasonable for whatever man she comes across to assume from that that she's one of the working girls.  There's that butterfly effect of changing some details but not reflecting how they should have changed what came after.

I wondered why she didn't put her dress back on to go downstairs. In the book, her dress was being repaired so it made sense. Here it really didn't. At least we got the funny banter with the prostitutes.

[toolazy]

It takes something like 15 or 20 minutes to put on all of those clothes - she probably didn't want to screw around with it until she had to.  After all, she was hungry.

[FnkyChkn34]

6 minutes ago, toolazy said:

It takes something like 15 or 20 minutes to put on all of those clothes - she probably didn't want to screw around with it until she had to.  After all, she was hungry.

Exactly.  Plus, they often need help with all of that, don't they?  Like in the first season how they show Mrs. Fitz helping her get dressed.

[Cloudberryjam]

I dont know if someone has mentioned this already (no time to read new posts rn) but on another thread i saw that maril davis, one of the producers, had posted last night on her twitter the script page from the photo scene. It WAS scripted that Jamie “falls to pieces” and cries on Claires shoulder after seeing the photos.  Why it wasnt shot/was cut....welp only tptb know

[nodorothyparker]

There are some great videos somewhere of just how much effort went into putting all of a typical 18-century woman's wardrobe on was.  But she clearly got into it well enough on her own to make the trip back through the stones.  She also obviously managed to get dressed somehow in the first season when they were on the road and last season when they were at war.

More likely, it's a matter of her being a 20-century woman not really thinking through the ramifications of her actions in an 18-century world on her first full day back.  She'd lived in the time period before so she should have known a proper respectable wife would never go wandering around a brothel in a state of undress and how that would be perceived, but she obviously didn't consider it.  It's actually a consistent character trait from first book/season that got her in enough trouble along the way then.

[Cloudberryjam]

5 hours ago, BryroseA said:

Yes, that line is in the book. On the page, it marks the moment when they swing away from the wild emotion of reunion to the more embarrassed awkwardness of haven’t-seen-each other-in-twenty-years. The line didn’t work as well in the episode, IMO, because it wasn’t preceded by a giant cry-fest on the floor. 

 

Buik:

“Given a moment to recover from the shock of seeing each other, we were both stricken now with shyness. I saw his shoulders straighten and then he turned around to face me. The hysterical laughter had left us, and the tears, though his face still showed the marks of so much sudden feeling, and I knew mine did, too. “It’s verra fine to see ye, Claire,” he said softly. “I thought I never … well.” He shrugged slightly, as though to ease the tightness of the linen shirt across his shoulders. He swallowed, then met my eyes directly.”

Thank you!! 

[FnkyChkn34]

So the other part I wanted to comment on is the voice-over.  (Sorry that I'm commenting randomly, I'm doing it as I get time at work.)

When Claire says they spent the entire meal savoring each other and talking about their lives for the past 20 years apart, the voice-over implies that Jamie would have said "I was rescued against my will at Culloden and my life was spared - more about that guy later - and Jenny saved my leg.  Then I lived in a cave for many years and that's when Fergus lost his hand.  I turned myself in so Jenny could get the reward money and spent the next several years in prison where I reunited with Murtagh!  Yeah, I know, I thought he was dead too... He was sent to the colonies and I was sent to be a groomsman.  I was spared because - remember when we pretended that I was going to rape you to scare that little kid shitless?  Good times, good times... well, that little kid became the warden of the prison.  He likes me. ::wink:: So he spared my life.  Then, well... Willie, I already told you about him, and... I marr- I mean, some more stuff happened... and here we are."  

Apparently all they really said was "we did some stuff, now we're here, wanna screw?  OK, cool."  

Don't have the voice-over imply that they told plenty of stories when 5 minutes later you're going to have Jamie bring up that he was in prison.  That's clearly a major event that he left out of the long, in depth conversation during the meal that he probably wouldn't have actually left out.  Very disjointed.  Details like this dragged the episode down, whereas other parts were excellent.

[SandyToes]

13 hours ago, Atlanta said:

So bummed she didn't give him the kiss on the cheek from B.

And honest to God, I've watched the ep twice, and I would SWEAR this was in the show! I guess it is just that powerful enough moment in the books, and was so expected, that my brain just filled it in.

Hoping she "remembers" and delivers it soon.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

18 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Don't have the voice-over imply that they told plenty of stories when 5 minutes later you're going to have Jamie bring up that he was in prison.  That's clearly a major event that he left out of the long, in depth conversation during the meal that he probably wouldn't have actually left out.

When Jamie told Claire about Willie, I think he mentioned he'd been in prison, and then in service of the Dunsany family in England, I think? I do know he told her how he'd been arrested after Culloden later, when she was trying to guess what other work he does in addition to being a printer.

[FnkyChkn34]

11 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

When Jamie told Claire about Willie, I think he mentioned he'd been in prison, and then in service of the Dunsany family in England, I think? I do know he told her how he'd been arrested after Culloden later, when she was trying to guess what other work he does in addition to being a printer.

Right, he mentions it later.  He says something like "I was in prison for awhile..." and she says "I know."  Then she says something like how she knows that and other things. 

But why wouldn't that have come up while they were talking so in depth over dinner?  As the voiceover implied?  I don't know.  It should have, but apparently didn't, so the voiceover was very, very misleading.  I didn't like that part - I guess that's my point.  It was deceiving and confusing and pointless if they didn't really tell each other much at all, which apparently they didn't.

[cardigirl]

Well, I enjoyed most of the episode.  I look forward to every episode, because they are filmed so beautifully, and it's like a new Outlander movie every week, they are so well done. 

I love the "Come with me" scene (swoon) and the rest of them trying to reconnect after so long apart.  But I agree with whoever the poster was (sorry) that said she didn't need the p@rn part of the reunion.  *ducks*   I love seeing beautiful people beautifully choreographed and filmed but that sex scene went on a little too long in my opinion.  Haha!  More conversation, less thrusting!  

Just my opinion.  I love this show, but I have to watch it by myself.  

[Juliegirlj]

Even the worst episode of Outlander is still worth watching. However, the reunion scenes were underwhelming in my opinion. The showrunners included  some of the precious details of the scene, and Claire's loving, joyful smile was befitting of finding the love of her life again, but, other details were lacking, and for no good reason. Enacting the scene in which Jamie and Claire were so overcome by emotion that they could only weep, tremble, and cling to each other was sorely missing. And honestly, that would have more succinctly portrayed their reunion than any dialogue could . 

Jamie seemed oddly emotionally removed when looking at photos of Brianna, and abruptly showing Claire the portrait of wee Willy seemed almost boisterous and strange. 

The whole of it is that the show seems a bit over commercialized, and depersonalized when compared to the books. In my opinion they need not cater to either book readers, nor strictly viewers, but, if they veer too far from the beautiful story of Claire and Jamie, and the heartstring details that make it so compelling, they risk losing both. 

[aemom]

28 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Right, he mentions it later.  He says something like "I was in prison for awhile..." and she says "I know."  Then she says something like how she knows that and other things. 

My impression was that she knew because they had found the document that listed the prisoners when they were trying for find Jamie.

[GHScorpiosRule]

13 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

But I agree with whoever the poster was (sorry) that said she didn't need the p@rn part of the reunion.

If those scenes are considered porn, then I say gimme Porn!

[AD55]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

When Claire says they spent the entire meal savoring each other and talking about their lives for the past 20 years apart, the voice-over implies that Jamie would have said "I was rescued against my will at Culloden and my life was spared - more about that guy later - and Jenny saved my leg.  Then I lived in a cave for many years and that's when Fergus lost his hand.  I turned myself in so Jenny could get the reward money and spent the next several years in prison where I reunited with Murtagh!  Yeah, I know, I thought he was dead too... He was sent to the colonies and I was sent to be a groomsman.  I was spared because - remember when we pretended that I was going to rape you to scare that little kid shitless?  Good times, good times... well, that little kid became the warden of the prison.  He likes me. ::wink:: So he spared my life.  Then, well... Willie, I already told you about him, and... I marr- I mean, some more stuff happened... and here we are." 

This made me laugh out loud.

[cardigirl]

10 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

If those scenes are considered porn, then I say gimme Porn!

I will admit to lack of experience with porn.  :) 

[toolazy]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

There are some great videos somewhere of just how much effort went into putting all of a typical 18-century woman's wardrobe on was.  But she clearly got into it well enough on her own to make the trip back through the stones.  She also obviously managed to get dressed somehow in the first season when they were on the road and last season when they were at war.

More likely, it's a matter of her being a 20-century woman not really thinking through the ramifications of her actions in an 18-century world on her first full day back.  She'd lived in the time period before so she should have known a proper respectable wife would never go wandering around a brothel in a state of undress and how that would be perceived, but she obviously didn't consider it.  It's actually a consistent character trait from first book/season that got her in enough trouble along the way then.

She wasn't threatened because she wasn't properly dressed. She was threatened because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

She DID NOTHING WRONG by going down to breakfast in her shift and a throw.

[FnkyChkn34]

17 minutes ago, AEMom said:

My impression was that she knew because they had found the document that listed the prisoners when they were trying for find Jamie.

Exactly.  It wasn't because he told her. 

6 minutes ago, AD55 said:

This made me laugh out loud.

Thanks!  :-)  Glad you liked it.

[nodorothyparker]

9 minutes ago, toolazy said:

She wasn't threatened because she wasn't properly dressed. She was threatened because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

She DID NOTHING WRONG by going down to breakfast in her shift and a throw.

The intruder first assumed she was a whore, which is where you get him telling her to get on the bed before she reveals that she's Jamie's wife.  Because a woman walking around in the 18-century equivalent of her underwear in a whorehouse would be assumed by most people to be a whore.  The entire breakfast scene with the working girls is predicated on them also assuming she's one of them.   They wouldn't make that assumption if she was not walking around a public part of the house in her shift, which happens for a reason in the book but didn't happen in the show version.

This really isn't about blame but shoddy episode construction in wanting to keep the whores brunch book scene but not thinking about how that scene exists in the first place.

[GHScorpiosRule]

One scene I really, really loved, was Jamie and Claire's first kiss. How he asked her if he could kiss her. Now the lighting wasna the best on his face, but I swear it seemed like Jamie was all teared up. And that SMILE. And brief chuckle. And ohhh, that KISSSS!!!!!!! Right after he said "I havena done this in a verra long time..." And the way Claire touched Jamie's face! And how he stroked her ear and hair. I was grinning like my inner tween!

And then the more passionate one, that was rudely interrupted by Geordie! Hmph.

[TaurusRose]

4 hours ago, Biggie B said:

She shouldn't have been out of the room in the first place. Jamie told her not to go anywhere (which, sure, Claire could've interpreted as not to go outside the brothel itself). The intruder might've broken into the room regardless, but at least if Claire had stayed in there with the door locked, that might've deterred the guy. But I get why she left the room - she was hungry and probably a little curious. I do find it very tiresome that men want to rape Claire the moment they see her. I understand full well that women were in danger so much of the time in that era and that many (not all) men were completely out of control in that respect...and that the omnipresent threat of being raped and killed serves to heighten and intensify the drama of the story, as well as providing ample opportunities for Jamie to rescue Claire or for Claire to demonstrate her cunning, but it wears thin to me after a while. 

 

Gotta agree with this. But since she just had to leave the room, was it really so hard to put on a bit more clothing? She is in a whorehouse after all and random men roaming the halls was not an unexpected occurrence. Seriously, for someone so intelligent, Claire acts as if she was dropped on her head as a baby quite a lot in the 18th century.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Of course HE knows (as we know) about Jamie’s 2nd marriage.  I do wonder if the non-readers will pick up on all these hints. 

Yes. I have only read the first book, but I read the "book talk" thread because I don't mind being spoiled and I'm interested to know how the show differs from the books. Yes, I thought something was fishy and could tell there was something else Jamie wasn't telling her. If someone wants to PM me I'd love to know why the hell he married Laoghaire and where she is. 

Also as a non-book reader, I did think the scene where he looks at the photos fell a little flat. It's interesting to learn he was much more emotional over the photos in the book. Part of me suspects that the people who make the TV show don't want Jamie breaking down into sobs because it's less "manly."

I'd also like to point out that if anyone finds those photos, or discovers the zipper on Claire's dress, there's a good chance she'll wind up back in prison accused of being a witch.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, iMonrey said:

Yes. I have only read the first book, but I read the "book talk" thread because I don't mind being spoiled and I'm interested to know how the show differs from the books. Yes, I thought something was fishy and could tell there was something else Jamie wasn't telling her. If someone wants to PM me I'd love to know why the hell he married Laoghaire and where she is. 

Also as a non-book reader, I did think the scene where he looks at the photos fell a little flat. It's interesting to learn he was much more emotional over the photos in the book. Part of me suspects that the people who make the TV show don't want Jamie breaking down into sobs because it's less "manly."

I'd also like to point out that if anyone finds those photos, or discovers the zipper on Claire's dress, there's a good chance she'll wind up back in prison accused of being a witch.

If you really want to be spoiled, I'd be happy to PM you, but I do believe we'll be shown everything in episode 8.  

[Thalia]

8 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So while he doesn't look like a decrepit 46 year old, who should look 10 years older just based on everything he's been through, he doesn't look as young as when we saw him in the first season.

This reminds me -- a few weeks ago I was binging season 1 and I was shocked at how young and innocent Jamie looked.   Part of it is makeup, but I think Sam's acting must be praised as well.  At the time season 1 aired, I knew how old the actor was, and kept thinking he didn't look like a 23 YO.  He still doesn't, but he looks years younger than he was even in season 2, when the mantle of Black Jack's torture hangs over him like a cloud.  Likewise, during last night's cold open, I thought he looked like an older-ish man who had lost everything, but was at peace with the life he had.  

I see Claire's aging mostly around the eyes.  Somehow they've made it seem she has some bags underneath.  When she was naked, she also looked a little saggier in the breasts.  And while we're at it, I thought Sam looked slightly thicker in the middle.  I'm wondering if he managed to gain a little weight since the Helwater scenes, or if all of it was done with CGI. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Thalia

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

46 minutes ago, Thalia said:

This reminds me -- a few weeks ago I was binging season 1 and I was shocked at how young and innocent Jamie looked.

Yeah, I was going to say I rewatched seasons 1 and 2 before season 3 started and I can notice a difference with how they look. It's subtle, but Jamie and Claire look older than they did.

[morgan]

I am so done with all the griping about the actors and how they haven’t aged then enough.  Maybe I’m just sensitive because my husband and I are the ages Claire and Jamie are supposed to be this season.  I certainly don’t think we look decrepic!  I do see a wide range among our friends of those who look older and younger but my god.  I actually think they have done a great job showing 40-something Claire and Jamie!  

Think of some famous actors like Cate Blanchette, Amy Adams, Sandra Bullock, Gwyneth Paltrow., all look fabulous and none ready for the home yet.  Same with actors like Matt Damon, Ewan McGregor, Keanu Reeves.  

Ok, rant over.  Sorry if I offended.  I’m just in a mood about it.  And I honestly see such a huge difference between the first season Jamie and Claire and this one.  I think they are all knocking it out of the park.

As for the episode, I loved the opening (sans Mme Jeanne), loved that we got so much from the book.  But I do wish they had taken a bit more of a beat when Jamie looked at Bree’s pics.  I think they tried...showing him with the first picture and having to take a seat like his legs were giving way and he needed to just be there to go through them. But I missed the gasp when he saw them in color.  I wanted the kiss from Bree.  I wanted just a bit more.  I loved the Faith reference, and actually would have been fine if he brought up Willy during the same scene, but I really just wanted a bit more of his time learning about his daughter.  And the pantless Jamie after the ale pot spill made him look like a hobbit.  I seriously almost called my hobbit obsessed 13 year old son to come see him when he was sitting there.  Normally hobbit is not what I think of when I see Jamie!  Lol.

I really missed Ian’s horror about Claire knowing his father when he thinks she’s a whore.  Loved that they kept the whore’s breakfast.  Loved the incredible sets and costumes and just how gorgeous everything is filmed.  Loved that quick intro to Fergus and trying not to be bummed it was so random on the street meeting.  Thought it was weird that Claire was telling about BPC so publicly.  Just felt strange to me.  Loved their initial awkwardness together.  Missed the “take me as the man I am” line a lot.  But I still have my books....

Overall I am loving this season and look forward to watching it all as a whole.  I am very curious as to what of the wackadoodle stuff they keep and what they get rid of.  And while I am trying not wish time away, I’m already excited for next season!

Edited October 23, 2017 by morgan

[iMonrey]

Quote

Think of some famous actors like Cate Blanchette, Amy Adams, Sandra Bullock, Gwyneth Paltrow., all look fabulous and none ready for the home yet.  Same with actors like Matt Damon, Ewan McGregor, Keanu Reeves.  

To be fair, nobody in the 1700s had access to the kind of fitness regimes and healthy diets modern day movie stars do (not to mention plastic surgery). Then there's the sheer torture that has been Jamie's life for the past 30 years. I have a hard time believing he'd still be so pretty in his 40s after the years in prison, the beatings, the starvation, etc.

By the way - how long has it been since Jamie left Helwater? How many years are supposed to have passed between then and now?

[Eureka]

15 minutes ago, morgan said:

I am so done with all the griping about the actors and how they haven’t aged then enough.  Maybe I’m just sensitive because my husband and I are the ages Claire and Jamie are supposed to be this season.  I certainly don’t think we look decrepic!  I do see a wide range among our friends of those who look older and younger but my god.  I actually think they have done a great job showing 40-something Claire and Jamie!  

Think of some famous actors like Cate Blanchette, Amy Adams, Sandra Bullock, Gwyneth Paltrow., all look fabulous and none ready for the home yet.  Same with actors like Matt Damon, Ewan McGregor, Keanu Reeves.  

Ok, rant over.  Sorry if I offended.  I’m just in a mood about it.  And I honestly see such a huge difference between the first season Jamie and Claire and this one.  I think they are all knocking it out of the park.

 

I agree (as someone who is probably about your age from your description, and gasp!, my DH is even older! Lol.) I see it in J and C mostly around the eyes. But I do think J’s face should be a little more weathered. The books always talk about C looking so young bc of modern hygiene and health care, and while she did teach J a few things, a lot more just wasn’t available to him. 

[morgan]

21 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

To be fair, nobody in the 1700s had access to the kind of fitness regimes and healthy diets modern day movie stars do (not to mention plastic surgery). Then there's the sheer torture that has been Jamie's life for the past 30 years. I have a hard time believing he'd still be so pretty in his 40s after the years in prison, the beatings, the starvation, etc.

By the way - how long has it been since Jamie left Helwater? How many years are supposed to have passed between then and now?

People back then didn’t need fitness routines, their lifestyles were built in fitness routines.  Looking youthful is often just the luck of the draw or genes...my mom has fabulous skin and I lucked out and inherited it.  I also drink a ton of water and eat healthfully.  Claire always seemed health conscious when it comes to food, and she passed that along to Jamie.  Nutrition helps.  And yeah, Jamie had a hellish life and could be quite wearing but men tend to look younger longer than women do, their hormone changes don’t play the same havoc with skin, and theirs is thicker and all that.  

I know I’m in a mood about it.  I must be on my way to becoming a crabby old lady. Lol

Edited October 23, 2017 by morgan

[WatchrTina]

There is a link in the "Outlander in the Media" folder to a really good interview with Sam on HarpersBazaar.com, in which he talks about this episode (among other things.)  I'm going to quote one section from that interview here.  Sam said, 

Quote

“We tried to be as honest as we could be,” Heughan says of the Frasers’ long-awaited reunion. “What's it like for two people who have not only not seen each other for 20 years, but were deeply in love and have shared some history together, then actually moved on?”

I find that very interesting in light of the negative feedback (from me and others) on the way they wrote and filmed the print shop reunion.  It tells me that they made choices that they thought were true to the emotions that people in that situation would actually feel.  I really respect Sam's sincerity about trying to get Jamie right (he talks about that more in the article) and mostly I think he does get Jamie right.  Am I still a bit bummed that the scene with the photos of Brianna didn't play out on camera the way it does in my mind?  Yeah.  But I'm going to get over it because TV!Jamie's more restrained, less emotional reaction to the photos (and his thinking immediately of Faith and Willie) is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of how a surreal moment like that might go.

Edited October 24, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Glaze Crazy]

8 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

Even the worst episode of Outlander is still worth watching. 

This is how I feel about this show too. I'm OK with how the show runners are choosing to present their version of the source material. For the most part they have been accommodating to the story as it's written and are gracious to the author about getting her thoughts on how they are presenting it and about any changes they make to it. Even if they don't always take her advice they at least let her tell them why something might or might not work. But I agree with this too:

10 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

 

Claire's out roaming around a freaking brothel in her shift even though she has a still perfectly intact dress.  It's actually not unreasonable for whatever man she comes across to assume from that that she's one of the working girls.  There's that butterfly effect of changing some details but not reflecting how they should have changed what came after.

They sometimes need to do better at considering the bigger picture and/or the reasons characters do something. If they are keeping random funny, interesting or dramatic interactions for screen effect they need to consider how it came about and adjust accordingly.

The overall show, and this episode, is great and still is some impressive storytelling by an excellent production team. But it's a story that so many people already know the bones of, so they need to stay aware of the bigger storyline when they make their changes or keep in random bits that they like or think they need to show the fans. I know I'm kind of dreading, yet also anticipating how they course correct, the whole Laoghaire reveal next week, for what they messed with in season one in their quest for more "drama." Any nits I pick I try to do it in this same sense. "You PTB guys changed/added/deleted/killed/didn't kill this person or thing. So, what happens in season xx, when that person/thing performs or needs to perform some other big plot point for the story then?" The travails of a devoted book reader. ;-)

Edited October 24, 2017 by Glaze Crazy

[WatchrTina]

7 hours ago, taurusrose said:

She is in a whorehouse after all and random men roaming the halls was not an unexpected occurrence. Seriously, for someone so intelligent, Claire acts as if she was dropped on her head as a baby quite a lot in the 18th century.

I disagree.  Claire putting a throw over her shoulders and going in search of food (after they forgot to come back with her breakfast) reminded me of the scene from the wedding episode where she puts a throw over her shift and goes down to the dining room in search of water.  She didn't expect anyone to be down there (after the wedding party ended) but when she ran into Dougal and Rupert it was no big deal (we'll ignore Dougal's indecent proposal because he would have said that no matter what she was wearing.)  When she went downstairs at the brothel in search of food she knew she was in a brothel, a house run by and occupied by women -- specifically whores.  If ever there was a place where trotting downstairs in a nightgown and shawl should not have been a big deal, it's there -- especially in the morning when it could be assumed that there would be few if any customers on the premises.  Yeah it was better in the book that she had no choice because they'd taken her clothes but I had no problem with the plausibility of Claire trotting downstairs that way in search of breakfast -- she is after all the wife of a man who has a room set aside for him on a continual basis so that makes her something of an "insider." And I certainly don't blame her for the arsehole who broke into her room or for failing to anticipate that he would assault her.  In fact I think the idea that Claire should have stayed in her room all day with the door locked is ridiculous.  But just imagine if she had.  Imagine that guy coming to the door and finding it locked.  What do you suppose would happen then?  Claire would call out asking "Who's there?" when he tried the door and the guy would have lied -- he would have said that he was there to deliver wood for the fire or had a message for Claire from Madam Jeanne or some other plausible lie to get Claire to open the door and then he would have forced his way in.  I do regret that Claire didn't back up to the wall and let loose with a good scream but the writers took care of that by having him grab her by the throat.  For me, the way they wrote it worked and I don't blame Claire for any part of the assault.

Edited October 24, 2017 by WatchrTina

[toolazy]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

To be fair, nobody in the 1700s had access to the kind of fitness regimes and healthy diets modern day movie stars do (not to mention plastic surgery). Then there's the sheer torture that has been Jamie's life for the past 30 years. I have a hard time believing he'd still be so pretty in his 40s after the years in prison, the beatings, the starvation, etc.

By the way - how long has it been since Jamie left Helwater? How many years are supposed to have passed between then and now?

He was at Helwater 6-7 years and has been gone from there for two or three years.  Keep in mind that when he was Helwater, he had enough to eat and decent living conditions. He also had a job that would keep him fit without wearing him down.  So yeah, that first 10 years might have been rough but since he once Ardsmuir his living conditions were fine.

[morgan]

And let’s not forget, not a lot of sun damage likely in Scotland!  Lol

[sas616]

10 hours ago, Cloudberryjam said:

I dont know if someone has mentioned this already (no time to read new posts rn) but on another thread i saw that maril davis, one of the producers, had posted last night on her twitter the script page from the photo scene. It WAS scripted that Jamie “falls to pieces” and cries on Claires shoulder after seeing the photos.  Why it wasnt shot/was cut....welp only tptb know

I read that they  generally film much more than the 58 minutes that makes it on to the show.  So I would bet the scene WAS filmed and then edited out (thus all the extended scenes that are included on the DVDs--don't get me started on the excellent scene in "Faith" when Jamie comes home after being released from the Bastille.    Now I must go read the A. Malcolm script.

[Scarlett45]

From a makeup aristry stand point, middle age is the hardest to accomplish because there is such a wide range of what "middle age" looks like. You can take a set of identical twins (so same DNA) and if one has lived a "hard life", i.e. Smoking, drug addiction, illness, stress etc, they will look MUCH older at 40/45 than the twin who ate a healthy diet, wore sunscreen and is satisfied with their life. I can buy Claire looking younger than Jaime because women tend to carry more fat in their faces, even as they age, where as Jaime (although living comfortably now) was put through tons of physical and mental stress these last couple of years. I do think they should done a little more work on his face to age him- he should've looked more weathered and weary.

 

Side note- some of the BEST aging makeup I have seen done on TV was the Roots remake last year. They were able to show characters go from their late teens to middle aged, and it was especially notable because not everyone can do a good aging technique on darker complexions. They should've hired those artists for Outlander. 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Scarlett45

[WatchrTina]

Slightly off topic but I thought the team that aged Travis Fimmel (Ragnar Lothbrok) in "Vikings" also did a great job.  I doubt if I could have named the character's actual age (or rather, the age he was playing) at any given time, but there was no question but that he did look different and did look older as the seasons passed.  So I feel confident that the Outlander make-up team will be able to manage the same miracle.

Now the hair and wig crew, I have less confidence in.  Since it looks like just about every male going forward is going to be sporting a wig (including Sam), and it looks like Cait with be donning a grey-studded wig very soon -- well, they need to get that situation sorted.  It's funny how sometimes a wig makes an actor look better (Hello Aragorn in Lord of the Rings and Legolas too) and sometimes a wig makes them look dorky (alas poor Haldir in LotR and even Borormir to a certain extent).  Here's hoping most of the Outlander men are flattered by their faux locks as we move forward.  But so far . . . not so good.

[WatchrTina]

Double-posting because this video homage to episode 306 is SO VERY GOOD

https://youtu.be/d5tGzbCmAjg

Edited October 24, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Ziggy]

10 hours ago, cardigirl said:

But I agree with whoever the poster was (sorry) that said she didn't need the p@rn part of the reunion.  *ducks*   I love seeing beautiful people beautifully choreographed and filmed but that sex scene went on a little too long in my opinion.  Haha!  More conversation, less thrusting! 

Oh, me too!  It just went on a little too long.  I was done and ready to get back to the story.  I might not have been had I not known the story.  Non book readers might not mind so much.

[WatchrTina]

I am amused to see that Diana posted on Facebook asking "So . . .?  Did you like it?" and the top-ranked reply (with over 1,000 likes) is someone who was very disappointed that they left out "Jamie going thoroughly to pieces over the photographs."

I find it gratifying that so many people had the same reaction I did to that particular deviation from the book.

Edited October 24, 2017 by WatchrTina

[FnkyChkn34]

13 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Well damn. I totally didn't see the knife both times I watched! Will have to go back and watch it again! I thought he just grabbed her jaw and was squeezing it hard. Hence Claire's gasp.

I just watched again and I believe you are right, my apologies - he doesn't have a knife. But she definitely has one in the preview, so where did she get it? I guess I automatically thought it was his and he used it on her first. 

[TaurusRose]

3 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I disagree.  Claire putting a throw over her shoulders and going in search of food (after they forgot to come back with her breakfast) reminded me of the scene from the wedding episode where she puts a throw over her shift and goes down to the dining room in search of water.  She didn't expect anyone to be down there (after the wedding party ended) but when she ran into Dougal and Rupert it was no big deal (we'll ignore Dougal's indecent proposal because he would have said that no matter what she was wearing.)  When she went downstairs at the brothel in search of food she knew she was in a brothel, a house run by and occupied by women -- specifically whores.  If ever there was a place where trotting downstairs in a nightgown and shawl should not have been a big deal, it's there -- especially in the morning when it could be assumed that there would be few if any customers on the premises.  Yeah it was better in the book that she had no choice because they'd taken her clothes but I had no problem with the plausibility of Claire trotting downstairs that way in search of breakfast -- she is after all the wife of a man who has a room set aside for him on a continual basis so that makes her something of an "insider." And I certainly don't blame her for the arsehole who broke into her room or for failing to anticipate that he would assault her.  In fact I think the idea that Claire should have stayed in her room all day with the door locked is ridiculous.  But just imagine if she had.  Imagine that guy coming to the door and finding it locked.  What do you suppose would happen then?  Claire would call out asking "Who's there?" when he tried the door and the guy would have lied -- he would have said that he was there to deliver wood for the fire or had a message for Claire from Madam Jeanne or some other plausible lie to get Claire to open the door and then he would have forced his way in.  I do regret that Claire didn't back up to the wall and let loose with a good scream but the writers took care of that by having him grab her by the throat.  For me, the way they wrote it worked and I don't blame Claire for any part of the assault.

I don’t blame Claire for the actions of someone else, specifically the assault, but I do blame her for not thinking about her surroundings or considering her personal safety. I thought it was ridiculous that she sashayed downstairs in a shift, even the madam was shocked to see her hanging out with the whores. And don’t get me started on falling asleep without locking the door. The scene didn’t work for me because the whole “Jamie is living in a whorehouse and the details of his activities and associations are sketchy enough to put Claire in peril after she hangs out with whores” fiasco made me roll my eyes. The situation here is completely different than the wedding episode. The whorehouse is a place of business and men wanting to get laid can show up at any time, also illustrated in the hanging out with whores scene. So Claire doesn’t get a pass for being silly (IMO) yet again. I guess I’m just getting tired of all the contrived drama; Claire has been back one day and she’s attacked. Oh, and Jamie is living in a whorehouse!  I know this stuff happened in the book, but it just didn’t translate well on the screen for me.

Edited October 24, 2017 by taurusrose

[FnkyChkn34]

32 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I am amused to see that Diana posted on Facebook asking "So . . .?  Did you like it?" and the top-ranked reply (with over 1,000 likes) is someone who was very disappointed that they left out "Jamie going thoroughly to pieces of the photographs."

I find it gratifying that so many people had the same reaction I did to that particular deviation from the book.

I thought that they needed to show more emotion when first meeting in some way. It doesn't bother me that he didn't bawl over the photos, but there should have been more emotion in some way or another, imo.