S13.E01: Lost & Found

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, Mulva said:

Dean was quite the hypocrite wasn't he?  He gets blown into another dimension, Sam assumes he's dead, and it's five seasons of "You should have saved me!", but when Mary gets blown into another dimension, Dean's all "Welp, she's dead, no point trying to find her".

Overall, I liked it.  Jack is interesting, and I liked Sam being smart enough to use the angel banishing sigil.

I didn't even think of that, LOL.  Although to be fair, I think it was really only one season of "You should have looked for me."  he just assumed Cas was dead back then, too.  So, not really out of character.

[Wayward Son]

Overall, I liked the episode! I'm not saying it's the best episode the show has ever produced (far from it), but it was a lot better than I was expecting. I enjoyed the introduction of Jack. As someone unfamiliar with Alexander I thought he did a great job of conveying Jack's confusion and introduction to the world around him. I loved Sam's speech to him at the funeral pyre. Of course the Winchester's would feel the guilt needed to include the words "I'm sorry" as a part of their funeral rites. Jared did some excellent subtle work here. I thought the new sheriff and her son were great characters, and I enjoyed the bond between the son and Jack! Can we have more appearances from them please? The sight of dead Castiel on that table was like being stabbed in the heart and was not so enjoyable though :( 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Wayward Son

[MysteryGuest]

38 minutes ago, Mulva said:

Dean was quite the hypocrite wasn't he?  He gets blown into another dimension, Sam assumes he's dead, and it's five seasons of "You should have saved me!", but when Mary gets blown into another dimension, Dean's all "Welp, she's dead, no point trying to find her".

I think this is a bit different though, since Mary went through the portal with Lucifer.  It's a pretty reasonable thought process to assume that he would have killed her immediately, considering his MO.  But I also think that it's out of character for Dean not to try to save her, no matter what.  I get that he's pretty shell-shocked right now after losing everyone, but I just don't think he'd give up on Mary until they'd exhausted every possibility.

I didn't find the episode to be Dean-centric or Sam-centric.  I thought they actually did a pretty good job of giving each character some good scenes.  I was concerned about adding Jack to the mix, thinking he'd just take away screen time from Jensen and Jared, but I wasn't at all pulled out of the story like I was last season every time Lucifer was on the screen.  I hope I still feel that way a few more episodes down the road.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The Mary dream was just supposed to set up the "she is dead", followed by the almost pun-like "nope, she isn`t" by showing how Lucifer conveniently lets her live.   

Taking my comment to the bitterness thread.

[Jeddah]

I know there was a discussion a few months ago about the number of episodes Misha has been in since we heard Cas but didn’t see him in “Baby.” Now he’s been in an episode where all he did was lay dead on a table, but I guess it counts. Did they film that last season? Or did Misha have to go to set just for these two second glimpses of Cas?

[sarthaz]

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

This is icky, but I was thinking he may want to make a new Nephilim to open the door.

Oh my ...

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I know there was a discussion a few months ago about the number of episodes Misha has been in since we heard Cas but didn’t see him in “Baby.” Now he’s been in an episode where all he did was lay dead on a table, but I guess it counts. Did they film that last season? Or did Misha have to go to set just for these two second glimpses of Cas?

I'm fairly certain it was this season. J2 and Misha joked on several occasions about the methods they used to try and get a response from poor Misha while they were filming these scenes. 

[sarthaz]

21 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think this is a bit different though, since Mary went through the portal with Lucifer.  It's a pretty reasonable thought process to assume that he would have killed her immediately, considering his MO.  But I also think that it's out of character for Dean not to try to save her, no matter what.  I get that he's pretty shell-shocked right now after losing everyone, but I just don't think he'd give up on Mary until they'd exhausted every possibility.

Maybe out-of-character 5 years ago, but Dean's been broken so many times that I can buy he needs to wall himself off from hope right now.  It's a defense mechanism.

37 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Overall, I liked the episode! I'm not saying it's the best episode the show has ever produced (far from it), but it was a lot better than I was expecting. I enjoyed the introduction of Jack. As someone unfamiliar with Alexander I thought he did a great job of conveying Jack's confusion and introduction to the world around him. I loved Sam's speech to him at the funeral pyre. Of course the Winchester's would feel the guilt needed to include the words "I'm sorry" as a part of their funeral rites. Jared did some excellent subtle work here. I thought the new sheriff and her son were great characters, and I enjoyed the bond between the son and Jack! Can we have more appearances from them please? The sight of dead Castiel on that table was like being stabbed in the heart and was not so enjoyable though :( 

More-or-less how I felt.  It was much better than I expected.  Granted, I had terribly low expectations, but still.  Best moment for me was when the sheriff suggested Dean was a superhero, and he absorbed it for a beat before deflecting it.  Still got it.

[catrox14]

Sudden loss and grief to the degree that Dean is experiencing especially the loss of Cas, can make someone feel hopeless. There is a reason why grief counselors say to never make major decisions within even a year or more after suffering a death of a loved one** and aside from Sam , Cas is the person closest to Dean and who Dean loves deeply.

Even for someone as experienced with death and resurrection as Dean, this happened within a matter of hours maybe a day.  I don't think it's hypocrisy so much as his grief talking, his prayers and begging going unanswered (in his viewpoint) and his opinion that Lucifer would have killed her immediately which IMO is a not an unreasonable conclusion given their battle with him.

 

** If only I had listened to those grief counselors! Seriously. Listen to them.

Edited October 13, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sudden loss and grief to the degree that Dean is experiencing especially the loss of Cas, can make someone feel hopeless. There is a reason why grief counselors say to never make major decisions within even a year or more after suffering a death of a loved one and aside from Sam , Cas is the person closest to Dean and who Dean loves deeply.

Even for someone as experienced with death and resurrection as Dean, this happened within a matter of hours maybe a day.  I don't think it's hypocrisy so much as his grief talking, his prayers and begging going unanswered (in his viewpoint) and his opinion that Lucifer would have killed her immediately which IMO is a not an unreasonable conclusion given their battle with him.

I think this is the key here, and it has been said that the conflict with Sam over Mary's fate doesn't last too long.

After letting the episode ruminate, I'm feeling okay with most of it. I don't even mind the idea of the AU, but lordy, I just can't bring myself to care about Mary. They have ruined her for me, and I found myself wishing Dean's dream/nightmare was real. And I care even less about Lucifer. I wish they'd have cut that last minute off altogether and left us with the funeral pyre scene.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I wish they'd have cut that last minute off altogether and left us with the funeral pyre scene.

Exactly. I don't know why the show has stopped doing this. It's been a problem for sometime now.I mentioned upthread it RUINS the emotionality of scenes that are so important.  And I think it has to be a writing choice vs directing. It's like they care more about these "gotcha" tags than something that sustains the emotional moments. I don't why they do it now.
 

Edited October 13, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I just can't bring myself to care about Mary. They have ruined her for me, and I found myself wishing Dean's dream/nightmare was real. And I care even less about Lucifer. 

I would have cared for him if he had killed Mary. But when she didn`t "fall on the sword", so to speak, I only thought "Lucifer, you can`t even do one thing right". I mean, it was obvious that`s how it was gonna go but the character had a chance to score some points there.

As for not killing someone, what I didn`t get was this whole Becky analogy-angel. The angels hate the Winchesters or Dean more or whatever, I know that, but why is an angel trying to blackmail some random human into killing Dean? They do still have powers, she could kill him herself. And seriously, the Winchesters may have been horrible for Earth on occation but the angels/demons/whatnots aren`t that much better. They are simply less successful in both breaking and/or saving the world. 

Cas still bats a 50/50 average with one angel saying he deserved better and the other hating on him. And he killed off hordes of heaven, caused their fall and said "yes" to Lucy, letting him out. Summarily speaking, this is not worse or better than the Winchesters fuck-ups. 

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I would have cared for him if he had killed Mary. But when she didn`t "fall on the sword", so to speak, I only thought "Lucifer, you can`t even do one thing right". I mean, it was obvious that`s how it was gonna go but the character had a chance to score some points there.

As for not killing someone, what I didn`t get was this whole Becky analogy-angel. The angels hate the Winchesters or Dean more or whatever, I know that, but why is an angel trying to blackmail some random human into killing Dean? They do still have powers, she could kill him herself. And seriously, the Winchesters may have been horrible for Earth on occation but the angels/demons/whatnots aren`t that much better. They are simply less successful in both breaking and/or saving the world. 

Cas still bats a 50/50 average with one angel saying he deserved better and the other hating on him. And he killed off hordes of heaven, caused their fall and said "yes" to Lucy, letting him out. Summarily speaking, this is not worse or better than the Winchesters fuck-ups. 

This made no sense to me, either. Did she want Dean to die knowing a human was willing to kill him? It was weird. Honestly, at that point I wasn't sure whether she was an angel or a demon.

Not gonna lie though, I chuckled when she called Sam, 'other one'.

Edited October 13, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I didn't find the episode to be Dean-centric or Sam-centric.  I thought they actually did a pretty good job of giving each character some good scenes.  I was concerned about adding Jack to the mix, thinking he'd just take away screen time from Jensen and Jared, but I wasn't at all pulled out of the story like I was last season every time Lucifer was on the screen.  I hope I still feel that way a few more episodes down the road.

I agree with all of this, especially the part about Jack not pulling me out of the story like Lucifer did last season. 

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sudden loss and grief to the degree that Dean is experiencing especially the loss of Cas, can make someone feel hopeless. There is a reason why grief counselors say to never make major decisions within even a year or more after suffering a death of a loved one and aside from Sam , Cas is the person closest to Dean and who Dean loves deeply.

Even for someone as experienced with death and resurrection as Dean, this happened within a matter of hours maybe a day.  I don't think it's hypocrisy so much as his grief talking, his prayers and begging going unanswered (in his viewpoint) and his opinion that Lucifer would have killed her immediately which IMO is a not an unreasonable conclusion given their battle with him.

taken to the Bitch thread, just in case.  

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

but why is an angel trying to blackmail some random human into killing Dean?

Will respond in spoiler thread. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

53 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Best moment for me was when the sheriff suggested Dean was a superhero, and he absorbed it for a beat before deflecting it.

I could see him wanting to say and yet struggling not to say "I'm Batman."  :)

[catrox14]

I'm probably giving Dabb WAY more credit here than he deserves, but thinking more about this, I don't think Dean is being a hypocrite here. Maybe this should be seen as character progression for Dean.

When Sam was murdered by Jake, Dean was devastated and distraught.  He kept Sam's body and refused to let Bobby bury him. (why they weren't going to burn Sam back then is another question) Dean believed he had failed Sam and John by not protecting him. In his desperation, grief,  and compelled by the Prime Directive, he sold his soul for Sam and the end result was him being in Hell and breaking the first seal leading to the apocalypse.  In 9.1 he made another desperate choice to save Sam by allowing an angel to possess him and that ended up with Kevin dead, a rift with Sam, him taking on the MoC and all the problems that caused.

Dean obviously struggled with preparing Cas' body for the funeral pyre. He had to steel himself to even do it. IMO, Dean was fighting the desire to make a deal of some kind. Dean did pray for Chuck's help and the prayer wasn't answered by Cas' resurrection.  Maybe Dean came to the conclusion that maybe the answer was that Dean had to let go of Cas and Mary.  Maybe that's why he beat up the sign because he was facing having to NOT do what he has always done in the past. He gave Cas a hunter funeral out of respect and to make sure Cas couldn't come back as anything malevolent and dangerous. 

As to not keeping the body around being some kind of hypocrisy, God resurrected Cas whole cloth when he was atomized by Lucifer in s5, so the state of Cas' body is almost irrelevant if God wants to bring him back he will.

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

As for not killing someone, what I didn`t get was this whole Becky analogy-angel. The angels hate the Winchesters or Dean more or whatever, I know that, but why is an angel trying to blackmail some random human into killing Dean? They do still have powers, she could kill him herself. And seriously, the Winchesters may have been horrible for Earth on occation but the angels/demons/whatnots aren`t that much better. They are simply less successful in both breaking and/or saving the world. 

I find it no odder than Death insisting Dean kill Sam when he could have easily done it himself. This show just makes up implausible scenarios sometimes.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

God resurrected Cas whole cloth when he was atomized by Lucifer in s5, so the state of Cas' body is almost irrelevant if God wants to bring him back he will.

I think bitchy angel saying this time Cas was really, truly, for realz dead was supposed to be the same clue the burning Mary dream was for explaining why Dean opted for the funeral for one and declared the other dead.  

Quote

I find it no odder than Death insisting Dean kill Sam when he could have easily done it himself. 

 Death was unbelievably stupid there, no arguments. I can at least see him get a sick thrill from it or something, to see if Dean was gonna do it. He should not have handed Dean the scythe and stood behind him, of course. As if Sam could only be killed by Death` scythe. 

The scene with the angel was just so strange to me because the only reason I could see for it was to prolong the scene a minute or two with some random nonsense.  

[DittyDotDot]

Slow start to the season, but I think it was the right choice. Scriggia did a great job directing once again! Loved all the driving scenes and the scenery. They were actually on the road. Love that!

I also thought they did a good job of balancing the discussion of what to do with the Spawn. Whether or not the Spawn is or will be good or bad, they both make good points. In true fashion of the show, I think both Sam and Dean will be right in the end. I think Sam will be right in that they should assess the situation before they act and that Dean will be right that they should be prepared to do something if they need to. But, I suspect both will be wrong in that Jack will neither be good or bad. In the end, I think Jack will just be too powerful and thus too dangerous for this universe. So, I'm not so sure the season is going to be about nature vs. nurture, but more about unchecked power and balance. 

Weak spot of the episode was the Alternate, but did get a chuckle out of Lucifer snarking about Mary not being very bright...Dude, takes one to know one!! ;)

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Weak spot of the episode was the Alternate, but did get a chuckle out of Lucifer snarking about Mary not being very bright...Dude, takes one to know one!!

It kind of reminded me of Dark Side of the Moon when Zachariah said something to the effect of "running?  From angels?  In Heaven?  With out of the box thinking like that I'm surprised you haven't stopped the apolcalypse yet."   Since they do seem to overpower creatures that are so much stronger than them on a daily (weekly, I guess) basis, it's not to have the reminders that, yeah, you really can't.

[Ria]

4 hours ago, Mulva said:

Dean was quite the hypocrite wasn't he?  He gets blown into another dimension, Sam assumes he's dead, and it's five seasons of "You should have saved me!", but when Mary gets blown into another dimension, Dean's all "Welp, she's dead, no point trying to find her".

Overall, I liked it.  Jack is interesting, and I liked Sam being smart enough to use the angel banishing sigil.

I had the exact same thought even as Dean was speaking. But then Dean has always been a hypocrite. 

I guess he’s also forgotten how many innocent people Crowley has harmed. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Ria

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

The scene with the angel was just so strange to me because the only reason I could see for it was to prolong the scene a minute or two with some random nonsense.  

I wondered if she'd eaten one too many french fries and had damaged her angel brain...

She did seem somewhat sadistic in a slightly amusing way. She tormented the poor guy at the food stand with wanting french fries and then annoyed Dean at the car... Unless I missed something and she wasn't an angel then yet, but I'm thinking that she was, and was trying to find out where Jack was, but still couldn't help being as annoying as all get out to the counter guy and Dean... She kinda reminded me of Metatron in that way: amusing herself by being annoying. I'm gonna go with that was just her personality. (A cross between Metatron - annoying - and Zachariah - petty.) Weirdly I found her somewhat amusing while at the same time feeling sorry for the poor counter guy and Dean at Baby.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I wondered if she'd eaten one too many french fries and had damaged her angel brain...

She did seem somewhat sadistic in a slightly amusing way. She tormented the poor guy at the food stand with wanting french fries and then annoyed Dean at the car... Unless I missed something and she wasn't an angel then yet, but I'm thinking that she was, and was trying to find out where Jack was, but still couldn't help being as annoying as all get out to the counter guy and Dean... She kinda reminded me of Metatron in that way: amusing herself by being annoying. I'm gonna go with that was just her personality. (A cross between Metatron - annoying - and Zachariah - petty.) Weirdly I found her somewhat amusing while at the same time feeling sorry for the poor counter guy and Dean at Baby.

I've been wondering if Jack's birth has caused things to change. Like reset the angels and the demons. She kind of reminded me of Meg TBH with her vindictiveness towards Dean.  Like it was a personal thing with Dean. Since when do angels play games like that? They don't pretend to be something they aren't because they don't have to. They are petty and vindictive but completely upfront in what they are doing. It was definitely demon behavior. It was weird and I wonder if it's signaling a shift in the demon/angel lore. Really weird.

Edited October 13, 2017 by catrox14

[auntvi]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think this is a bit different though, since Mary went through the portal with Lucifer.  It's a pretty reasonable thought process to assume that he would have killed her immediately, considering his MO.

I dunno, in the Winchesters' experience with Lucifer and hell, Lucifer might torture her for a while instead of killing her right away. Then it's a big deal to get her back ASAP.

[Ria]

23 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I dunno, in the Winchesters' experience with Lucifer and hell, Lucifer might torture her for a while instead of killing her right away. Then it's a big deal to get her back ASAP.

 And Dean and Sam saw her get sucked into a portal from which others returned alive. Sam had no idea where Dean had gone. You’d think they’d both want to know for sure if she was dead or alive rather than possibly just leaving her to be tortured by Lucifer for eternity. 

[Bessie]

Maybe since Sam has been dragged for years for not looking for Dean, he's learned that lesson. Guess it's Dean's turn. 

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

It kind of reminded me of Dark Side of the Moon when Zachariah said something to the effect of "running?  From angels?  In Heaven?  With out of the box thinking like that I'm surprised you haven't stopped the apolcalypse yet."   Since they do seem to overpower creatures that are so much stronger than them on a daily (weekly, I guess) basis, it's not to have the reminders that, yeah, you really can't.

Right? I'm just saying that Lucifer ain't that bright either and I found it funny the pot was calling the kettle black. I mean, instead of just going and getting his Spawn, he decided to follow the two guys--who already got him locked in a cage for years after derailing the plan he'd been working on for...well, ever--through a portal when they clearly wanted him to follow them through that portal...with that sort of out-of-the-box thinking, I'm surprised he didn't get his spawn, ya know? ;)

[catrox14]

I still want to know how President Jeff's DNA is gonna enter into this whole thing. I mean are they just going to ignore that Lucifer was possessing the POTUS when he impregnated Kelly; that it was POTUSperm here, not solely Lucifer grace? Is anyone in the WH asking what about POTUS' personal aide? What about the friend whom Kelly told she was pregnant? Wouldn't she be curious to know what happened to her after all this time? 

[Affogato]

For the past couple of years I've watched in a desultory fashion and I'm trying to draw everything together right now and coming up blank. Sorry. I miss the beginning when it was really juicy horror.

It seems to me that the purpose of this episode was to show Dean and Sam at the opposite side of the Jack issue. This will become a problem because Jack, still an innocent (although a powerful one) heard Dean talking about him as evil. The episode was from Dean's POV though (when he was onscreen) and we know a lot more about what is going on inside him than we know about what is going on inside Sam. This was a Dean episode, no doubt about it, and Dean is desperate and afraid of Jack, while Sam presents as his friend. These are familiar corners for the brothers.

This will cause them to miss things and at some point one of them will storm off at the wrong time.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I still want to know how President Jeff's DNA is gonna enter into this whole thing. I mean are they just going to ignore that Lucifer was possessing the POTUS when he impregnated Kelly; that it was POTUSperm here, not solely Lucifer grace? Is anyone in the WH asking what about POTUS' personal aide? What about the friend whom Kelly told she was pregnant? Wouldn't she be curious to know what happened to her after all this time? 

I think that trail is cold. Kelly is dead and I assume untraceable. They might trace her to Cas when she was pregnant and shopping for diapers (etc), but Cas is burned to a crisp and I hope Kelly was part of the conflagration, too. Jack doesn't have a birth certificate and is a teenager. Lucifer is in another place. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I still want to know how President Jeff's DNA is gonna enter into this whole thing. I mean are they just going to ignore that Lucifer was possessing the POTUS when he impregnated Kelly; that it was POTUSperm here, not solely Lucifer grace? Is anyone in the WH asking what about POTUS' personal aide? What about the friend whom Kelly told she was pregnant? Wouldn't she be curious to know what happened to her after all this time? 

I don't think Jack has any of the President's DNA.   I don't think it works that way, although I'm not sure how that does work.  I mean, when Sam drank blood out of a demon possessing a person, he was drinking demon blood.  I guess in theory, maybe he was getting human blood, also, but I think my point is that I think the demon or angel fully takes over and any bodily fluid they excrete is theirs.  Not the human's.  I know the military type people were asking about and looking for Kelly, so maybe they made up a story before the BMOLs killed them.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

This was a Dean episode, no doubt about it

I guess we have very different definitions about that. In my time of Dying or Lazarus Rising or last year Regarding Dean, yes, but this one I would call probably a Jack episode. He was the lynchpin of the episodic plot.

Sam got the success parts with the save and the kill but I wouldn`t even give him the episode. Dean got some emo but that is too low on the totem pole for me to give someone an episode for it. 

[KirkB]

Was there a particular significance, that I might have missed, to the way the sheriff was staring at Jack's fingerprint? I've only watched it once so far but it seemed like she was reacting in an odd manner. Was it just because, with him being new and all, he doesn't exist anywhere and thus wouldn't be in the system? As far as I know not everyone is. Or did I just read the scene wrong?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, KirkB said:

Was there a particular significance, that I might have missed, to the way the sheriff was staring at Jack's fingerprint? I've only watched it once so far but it seemed like she was reacting in an odd manner. Was it just because, with him being new and all, he doesn't exist anywhere and thus wouldn't be in the system? As far as I know not everyone is. Or did I just read the scene wrong?

I think it was weird.  Weird in that, it was a series of lines kind of like a bar code instead of a pattern of swirls and whorls like a normal fingerprint.  But I haven't rewatched, so maybe I'm wrong.  

Edited October 13, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Was there a particular significance, that I might have missed, to the way the sheriff was staring at Jack's fingerprint? I've only watched it once so far but it seemed like she was reacting in an odd manner. Was it just because, with him being new and all, he doesn't exist anywhere and thus wouldn't be in the system? As far as I know not everyone is. Or did I just read the scene wrong?

Yes, it was not in circular patterns like normal fingerprints. It was in straightlines so that pinged her to think something was really off.

[KirkB]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think it was weird.  Weird in that, it was a series of lines kind of like a bar code instead of a pattern of swirls and whorls like a normal fingerprint.  But I haven't rewatched, so maybe I'm wrong. 

 

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Yes, it was not in circular patterns like normal fingerprints. It was in straightlines so that pinged her to think something was really off.

Okay, good, thanks. I thought I was imagining things. For some reason I noticed her reaction but not WHAT she was reacting to.

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think Jack has any of the President's DNA.   I don't think it works that way, although I'm not sure how that does work.  I mean, when Sam drank blood out of a demon possessing a person, he was drinking demon blood.  I guess in theory, maybe he was getting human blood, also, but I think my point is that I think the demon or angel fully takes over and any bodily fluid they excrete is theirs.  Not the human's.  I know the military type people were asking about and looking for Kelly, so maybe they made up a story before the BMOLs killed them.

I can see that being the case for demons because they were actually derived from humans but angels are not human at all. I'll just agree to disagree on this point :)

I still think a presidential aide who was clearly very close to the POTUS and someone  else knew was pregnant by POTUS would want to know her whereabouts. I'll be annoyed if the show never follows up on that.

[Commando Cody]

I think they should have used the kid who played Jack to play someone related to Castiel or Jimmy I guess. I thought he looked a lot like a young Misha Collins.  

[FlickChick]

8 hours ago, Jediknight said:

It's Jack's eye.  Whenever he gets mad or scared, his eyes get that fiery ring, and his power is unleashed.

That's why I don't like the title card. If you go back, all the title cards from S6-S12 show the predominant focus of the season. And I have zero interest in focusing on Jack and a nature/nurture debate. I didn't see any mention of Cas' wings in the opening scene with Dean by his side. If you look closely, they look like full wings - not burned wings. I don't know if that will have any meaning or not, but that's what I saw.

As far as the episode goes, I'll give Jensen an A+ for his role of a grieving Dean. The rest is a C- at best. Like I said above, I'm not interested in Jack as a character at all - just like his biological father!

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

That's why I don't like the title card. If you go back, all the title cards from S6-S12 show the predominant focus of the season. And I have zero interest in focusing on Jack and a nature/nurture debate.

I definitely don't either.  I do like the title card, though.  It just looks cool.

15 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I didn't see any mention of Cas' wings in the opening scene with Dean by his side. If you look closely, they look like full wings - not burned wings.

I did not notice that.  I'll have to take another look.  I love when you guys point out details I miss.

[catrox14]

This face is too much. He is struggling to do what he must

 

 

 

[Bessie]

Throughout that scene, I was waiting for the single man-tear!

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Throughout that scene, I was waiting for the single man-tear!

He saved those for the funeral pyre IMO. And he cried during his prayer to Chuck.  I think Jensen played it perfectly. I think Dean was stopping himself from breaking down during that moment.

[Bessie]

I was kinda bummed that he mentioned everyone except Rowena when he was praying. I loved her! Maybe it's a clue that she's not dead. 

[SueB]

Wow. SUCH an awesome start. Sad... but awesome. About the only surprise for me was the Angel's actually wanting Jack versus just going for the kill. Read the bold and Bottom Line for the TL; DR:



Sam: Sam feels like he's actually NOT dealing with things. He's more on-guard about Dean melting down. Don't get me wrong, I think Sam's response is a normal one. Focus on someone else rather than yourself. But while Sam expressed sadness, it felt muted. Like job #1 was to keep Dean from killing Jack out of grief, then keeping Dean from letting himself get killed. At the BroMoment while discussing taking Jack back to the Bunker, Dean's rationale was so that the only people Jack could hurt would be them. Sam's no dummy. Dean's going to be reckless. It's not that Dean is suicidal. He's not. But his 'give a shit' is at an all-time-low (except for when he was a demon). And Sam sees that. So, I think the other shoe will drop on Sam's grief. But right now he's got too many other worries to let that take priority. I think Sam's optimism in Mary still alive is also a really big difference. IMO he's right to take that perspective. Even if WE know it's true, it's logical to presume that Mary is a bargaining chip if the boys make it back to the AU. Kind of an interesting parallel that Sam and Lucifer may be on the same wavelength whereas Mary (and Dean) presumed he'd just kill her straight away. I agree with those who say "scared Sam" was played perfectly. Sam is not remotely "kum-bay-yah" regarding Jack. And I loved that his first question was 'how are you even talking, your a day old?' And his FACE (Sam's) when Jack said Castiel was his father. Ouch. So glad Sam straight out told Jack that Cas was dead. Any delay would have made Jack's potentially worse. But how brave of Sam to risk Jack losing his nut and control over his powers. Of course in typical TV fashion, Sam sees all the raw reactions Jack has. So he has better insight into Jack's goodness.





Dean: PAINFUL TO WATCH. Jensen’s performance was just.. shattering, and perfect. He’s amped up the ‘don’t give AF’ big time. Yelling at God, acting out his grief, not bothering with a cover story and going straight for violating Rule #1 (we do what we do and we shut up about it), and throwing his body in front of a problem (with the Angel, with Jack). I’m curious about his nightmare – does that mean he really did SEE his Mom burn on the ceiling at 4? It sure implies he did (although in ‘Pilot’ it seemed like John intercepted him). I LOVED that he mentioned bringing back Crowley. I love that bromance. Watching him wrap Cas’ body with yellow sheer curtain ties? Yes, STOP NOW. And his face. In just about every scene. 



Jack: He’s got a mercurial style to him. Excellent job of showing the nature vs nurture battle already on display. So MANY of his ‘human’ moments seemed like callbacks to Kelly in terms of the way he spoke. Loved the Cas mimicking as well. And he likes nougat! Sugar, the universal child happiness food. 



Miram (Angel pretending to be drunk): I really found her performance memorable. I liked how her whole body language shifted as soon as the boys took off. She seemed more comfortable with ‘playing human’ than her counterparts. But I don’t think she liked humans very much. And she called Dean a bitch, so she had to die.



Other characters:

- Clark: pretty eyes, bit of an ass

- Christine: another competent female sherriff in the know!

- Claude(?): not team huamanity

- Unnamed Angel: Team Humanity and Team Cas! Yay! Some still like him!

- Mary & Luci: predictable but worked for me



Other Elements:

- I think the Angels have a “no kill” order for Sam and Dean. Miriam tried to get around it by having Christine kill Dean but to no luck. And the other Angel had to content themselves with just beating the shit out of Sam. The only reason for them to NOT break their neck, IMO, is because they have been ruled off-limits. Cause Miriam had no problem shanking Clark.

- Parallels: 1) Dean making a ‘call’ to God for help next to the bathroom like he made a call to John in Home. 2) Shades of Demon!Dean or late-stage Mark of Cain!Dean with him just totally OVER it. 3) Cas & Jack’s description of where they are (Earth).

- VFx/SFx – a REAL conversation as they drove and the camera moved around. VERY cool, very tricky. 

- Miriam’s Insults: Designed to hurt or real reflection of her POV? Calling Dean him a bitch, calling Sam “the other one”. Does this imply Dean hates his emotions (my vote is yes), and Sam feels overshadowed (I’m not sure)?

- Music: that SONG (Nothing Else Matters), suitably somber opening. 

- Not bothered by: Not showing an attempt to resurrect Cas on screen. They showed Jack trying to resurrect Kelly, if he couldn’t do that, Cas seems out of his league. 



Bottom Line for the TL;DR: An emotional season opener. I love how Dean feels he can mourn in front of Sam and Sam showing concern for Dean. There was a LOT of plot wrapped up in small doses. Looking forward to next Thursday.


 

[Wayward Son]

Am I the only one who wondered why Dean didn’t try praying to Amara? She likes him and recently brought back Mary for him. 

 

And in this paricular instance I’m not criticising Dean. I’m more just curious why she was ruled out as a option to try. 

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He saved those for the funeral pyre IMO. And he cried during his prayer to Chuck.  I think Jensen played it perfectly. I think Dean was stopping himself from breaking down during that moment.

Yes. You can see him gather himself before he goes to rip down the curtains for Cas' shroud. He swallowed his emotions and set his mind to what needed to be done.

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I was kinda bummed that he mentioned everyone except Rowena when he was praying. I loved her! Maybe it's a clue that she's not dead. 

I didn't think about her during Dean's prayer, but on the whole I find the lack of attention paid to Rowena's death suspect. Between the drama with Mark, and the outcry over Castiel and subsequent spoiling at JIBcon, Ruth and Rowena really got lost in the shuffle. I don't recall any fond farewell's from TPTB or cast. There was little mention of her at all. I really wonder if she is really, most sincerely dead. Or, maybe they did just kill her off out-of-hand because the Crowley story was over.

Edited October 13, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[smree]

Really enjoyed this episode. Jensen killed it showing Dean's emotion and Jared the fear and hesitation Sam had when dealing with Jack.

One thing that I struggled with last season was the music was really off and didn't seem right for a lot of the scenes but this episode they nailed it with the music.

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I didn't think about her during Dean's prayer, but on the whole I find the lack of attention paid to Rowena's death suspect. Between the drama with Mark, and the outcry over Castiel and subsequent spoiling at JIBcon, Ruth and Rowena really got lost in the shuffle. I don't recall any fond farewell's from TPTB or cast. There was little mention of her at all. I really wonder if she is really, most sincerely dead. Or, maybe they did just kill her off out-of-hand because the Crowley story was over.

Yeah I thought it was fair enough Dean not mentioning Rowena during his prayer but I'm pissed with the show for killing such a strong character and actress off screen and also her death getting lost in the season finale deaths. 

[catrox14]

I'm fine. This is fine. NOPE. I did not ask for this :(:(:(

I agree that Dean thinks Cas is dead because of the wings.