Burns & Novick: The Vietnam War

[txhorns79]

Quote

I had been dreading Mogy's death.  His family was so nice.  I'd hoped that at the end, we'd see him and he'd say 'then I came back from Vietnam' but I knew in my heart that wasn't going to happen.  What a dreadful time that was.

The whole think was bleak and depressing.  I just was shocked and very disheartened when they said he purposefully screwed up his assignments so he would be transferred to a combat role.  I fully understand the desire to serve, and recognize that these kids had no idea what they were getting into, but I just wanted to reach into the tv and shake the poor kid.     

[mightysparrow]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

That's been my depressing take-away from all this.  During the Vietnam War many young men were re-defining "patriot," as someone who loved their country and believed in it's tradition of kindness to other nations.  Those patriots were ashamed that US soldiers were acting as invaders in a poor country that was only seeking independence for themselves.  Stories of Vietnamese civilians being killed were all over college campuses, we knew LBJ was keeping the full truth from us.  But even now those who refused to go, went to Canada, or used college deferments are seen by many as unpatriotic cowards who were afraid to fight.  No they didn't hold parades for the returning soldiers because a huge portion of their peer group had been begging them not to go and warning them of the atrocities they would be asked to perform.

The young men who did go were unbelievably brave  and they were, in many ways the best of our society;  courageous and healthy with noble ideals,  but it would have been asking the rest of us to be morally dishonest if we had quit protesting against the war and thrown celebrations for the returning soldier all in the interest of  "supporting our troops."  I've always hated that idea that we must pretend a war is good for the sake of the ones who are fighting and keep sending more young men to die so that the lives who went before would not have been in vain. Where would all that end?  Then and now, I "support the troops," by trying to  bring them home.

That was beautifully said.  You moved me to tears.

I didn't think I needed to say it but I will.  Saying that the society those boys lived in thought they were the bottom of the barrel doesn't mean I did.  I remember the images of those boys from when I was a little girl.  Even then I thought THEY'RE SO YOUNG.  When Mogy's mother said 'not my beautiful boy', I thought my heart would break. More than fifty-eight thousand mothers lost their beautiful boys in a fight that they never should have been in.

I've always felt pity for LBJ.  He should be considered one of the greatest Presidents the US ever had but he will never get rid of the stink of Vietnam.  LBJ was caught in a horrible trap.  He had 'Camelot' hanging over his head and Bobby Kennedy breathing down his neck.  And he wasn't good enough or strong enough to admit Vietnam was a mistake and get the hell out.  Too many people had too much invested in keeping that war going.  Too much money was being made selling guns that didn't even work.

In Canada, we watched while a country tore itself apart.  We welcomed draft dodgers and Vietnamese refugees.  My parents had friends in the civil rights movement in the US, so our family knew WHO was being sent to fight and die.  We knew that most of the boys who were told they were going over to fight for the rights of the Vietnamese didn't have equal rights in their own country.  We knew that they were considered the most expendable.  Black, Brown and poor White boys. The African-American veteran (I can't remember his name) who said that after he had experienced a bombardment, he wasn't afraid of ANYTHING, had the 'thousand yard stare'.  Imagine learning a lesson like that at such a young age. College students might have been protesting for those soldiers but mostly they were fighting to keep THEMSELVES from being sent.  Who could blame them? 

I've been a fan of Ken Burns' work for years.  All my friends think it's hysterical that I'm madly in love with him.  'Vietnam' is almost unbearable to watch.  Now that I'm a middle-aged woman, the faces of those beautiful boys hurts my heart. 

 @JudyObscure is right.  The best way to support veterans is to bring them all home and make sure that no new ones are created.

[Lady Iris]

I haven't watched a minute of this documentary but I can't wait to sink my teeth into it from reading all the comments here. I was born in the early 70's and while I grew up it just seemed like the whole Vietnam war was so difficult to understand. I've never really had a grasp on it other than exposure from movies like Platoon, Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket and Born on the Fourth of July.

My heart breaks for all the vets that served and returned home back then who were so badly looked upon and of course for those who never made it home. It's a dark mark against our country's history they were treated so terribly.

[GHScorpiosRule]

21 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

I was born in the early 70's and while I grew up it just seemed like the whole Vietnam war was so difficult to understand.

I know exactly how you feel. I seem to remember, during the early 80s a commercial that kept playing: A father and son are in front of the Memorial Wall, and the son (who was about six, I think) asks his dad: "What was Vietnam?" And the father looks down at his son, and as it fades to black, a voice over about how there was no clear answer. or something.

[monakane]

As a young woman in 1970s, my first job was with the federal government.  The building I worked in was occupied by several federal agencies including an out patient psychiatric VA clinic.  I will never forget the guys who visited the clinic.  They were wrecked.  It was heartbreaking.   I also worked with a few Vietnam vets.  One of them was so sickly and emaciated due to agent orange exposure and he eventually died from stomach cancer at the ripe old age of 32.

I grew up in the sixties watching the war and the series really captures those times.  I find myself experiencing those same emotions again.  Very powerful and well done by Ken Burns and company.

[Lady Iris]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I know exactly how you feel. I seem to remember, during the early 80s a commercial that kept playing: A father and son are in front of the Memorial Wall, and the son (who was about six, I think) asks his dad: "What was Vietnam?" And the father looks down at his son, and as it fades to black, a voice over about how there was no clear answer. or something.

That actually makes me feel a bit better that it was way over my head as a child to grasp the enormity of it, that even adults didn't quite have the words for it.

[Brattinella]

I must tell you, Lady Iris, I love your username!  Brings back fond memories!

[meep.meep]

I knew that I would have a personal reaction to this.  I come from a military family and we were at West Point when Westmoreland was the superintendant.  I am the same age as his daughter and was one of the few children ever asked to play at their house.  Seeing him is strange.

But what was even stranger is seeing my father, who has been dead for almost 20 years.  He's in the 4th episode when they are talking about the hamlets and Pacification.  I know that Burns is using stock photos and movies from the military, but you don't expect to see your family members.  I don't know anyone in the Civil War! :-)

One of the families talks about sending cassette tapes back and forth as a way to communicate and we did that.  

[JudyObscure]

27 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

He's in the 4th episode when they are talking about the hamlets and Pacification.

We were talking about how shocking it might be to see friends or family members in these films.   I hope it wasn't upsetting for you.

[Brattinella]

I agree.  I hope it was nice to see him again!

[Bastet]

Like a bonehead, I completely forgot that this began Monday, and was hoping episode one would be repeated Tuesday, but no luck.  However, all of this week's episodes will air Sunday, so I can get caught up (I know it's available on the website, but I don't watch programming online; I don't have my TV set up for that, so I'd have to watch on my little 19-inch computer monitor, and that's not happening).

I was a child of the '70s, so the Vietnam War was always history to me, and murky history at that.  I studied broadcast journalism in college, and watched a fair bit of news coverage of the time that way, plus some old documentaries.  It sparked an interest, and in college I took a class on the war.  Fascinating.  A Ken Burns documentary isn't all that much shorter than a semester, heh, so I'm really looking forward to this; I'm glad to see the reaction is so positive.

I've long had such a complicated set of feelings towards LBJ.  I became very interested in the history of civil rights movements in college, too (and, many years later, became a civil rights lawyer), and it has always been hard for me to reconcile LBJ's Vietnam debacle with all his Great Society programs.  Although he inherited a mess, I don't absolve him of responsibility for the choices he made that doubled down on that mess.  But I sure wonder what kind of legacy he'd have left behind had the Vietnam War not happened. 

[Raja]

13 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I can't recall if it was The Seventies or another documentary, but I recall how it was only the officers who were POWs and POWs who were welcomed when they returned home, while everyone else who had gone to fight and returned home were treated horribly. I know Hollywood likes to glamorize, but I remember watching Major Dad, right around the time the troops came home after the Persian Gulf war, and Gerald McRaney's character was very somber and not cheering at the celebratory welcome the troops were getting.  When his wife asked why he wasn't more glad, he brought up Vietnam, and how when he returned, he and his men got the opposite treatment. It was very bittersweet, and Gerald McRaney did a very good job to convey why some Vietnam Vets would feel bitter about it. Not against the soldiers coming home, but against society. I think. I just remember how moved I was by his performance. I've always wondered if he actually served, since his character on Simon and Simon (Rick), was also a Vietnam Vet.

So I'll be hunking down this weekend to watch this series online (I have very good internet connection), and I don't want the edited version.

He, Gerald McRaney is not a veteran of the armed forces. It was becoming a thing in the 80s for a least one character in cop and action shows to be Vietnam veterans. Going with the American loser label discussed early many characters from the early 80s onward were shown to be not that at all, From All American football player  Sonny Crockett on Miami Vice to the straight man Jon Baker compared to to the rookie Ponch on CHiPs, down to one member of detective squads. Vietnam veterans from that era were treated sort of like how Special Forces and SEALs veterans are now portrayed on TV today. However Rick Simon was more rough and ready and not the silver spoon type like his college educated little brother AJ on Simon and Simon.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, meep.meep said:

One of the families talks about sending cassette tapes back and forth as a way to communicate and we did that.  

I heard part of an interview on NPR with Ken Burns and Lynn Novick this week. She was recounting how she was at (IIRC) a viewing of their last project, and when asked what was next, she said "Vietnam," whereupon a woman came forward and said she had those tapes. Novick expressed how grateful she was for that serendipitous happenstance. If you can still locate any of your tapes, @meep.meep, they too should be digitized and preserved so that someday (whenever you and your family decide) they too may serve to, in some small way, prevent this history from continuing to repeat itself. I felt they gave an intimate immediacy that was heroic without the vain glory of accounts altered by memory and years.

[Cheezwiz]

Just finished episode 5 "This is What We Do". I cannot imagine how demoralizing it must have been to the ground troops to be told to take some supposedly strategic hilltop, get half their comrades blown to smithereens, retreat, and then be sent back to retake the same spot AGAIN. This, on top of the horrific environmental conditions they had to work in: 100 degree temperatures, 90% humidity, carrying 60lbs of gear, deep sucking mud, biting insects. I can only imagine how many young men at that point were thinking "why are we here?".

My mouth dropped open when the North Vietnamese Officer explained that the Americans were easy to spot and track because they smoked and always left a trail of cigarette butts behind them.

[JudyObscure]

3 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

they smoked and always left a trail of cigarette butts behind them.

That surprised me, too. My WWII father once showed me how they had  "field stripped," their cigarette butts by shredding the paper into bits, so the idea that the enemy could track the soldiers by them wasn't knew. Weren't they doing that in Vietnam?  For that matter, the tobacco companies made enough money off them to have manufactured some cigs in brown paper to help them out.

[dorcastrilling]

Johnson's lying and aggressive recruiters targeting kids from lower socio-economic families had my husband enlistingat 17; one of the first selected at Benning for door gunner. Days after his 18th birthday on a troop carrier. Died at 56, in 2003, direct result of AOE. McNamara knew and signed off on it anyway. He should have been tried for war crimes. Bastard.

[SusanSunflower]

yes, people "volunteered" to avoid being drafted with the promise that they might get better assignment or even some choice of service ...  rather than being put in the pool of unwilling conscripts.  I'd knew but had forgotten.  High school student groups fought to have draft counselors as well as recruitors ... as I recall, we/they lost 

[JudyObscure]

The draft.  The very idea that eighteen year old boys could be forced, against their will, to fight, kill, sacrifice limbs or even die, for the political objectives of old, powerful men   -- is shocking and barbaric. 

[Brattinella]

My brothers were too young for the draft, and for that I am thankful.  I only knew 3 guys who went to Vietnam; 2 cousins and a friend.  They all came back.  I do remember the terror in high school over the draft; several friends and family escaped to other countries.  They are still there.

[Cheezwiz]

17 minutes ago, Brattinella said:

My brothers were too young for the draft, and for that I am thankful.  I only knew 3 guys who went to Vietnam; 2 cousins and a friend.  They all came back.  I do remember the terror in high school over the draft; several friends and family escaped to other countries.  They are still there.

As the war heated up, it must have been a frightening time - especially for those on the bottom rungs of the economic ladder.

In the late 60's my Mom briefly worked as a clerk in a Canadian government office that handled immigration. She remembers assisting one family from the States with their paperwork. They were fairly well off - the Dad was a University Prof and they seemingly had a great life (not sure what state they were from, I'm assuming it was on the West Coast somewhere). My Mom politely asked them why they were suddenly pulling up stakes to come to an entirely new country. The couple simply pointed to their two sons "our boys, look at them". They were teenagers nearing high-school graduation. My Mom never found out if they gained entry or not.

I've spent my whole life driving back and forth across the Peace Arch crossing that separates Canada and Washington State, never giving it a second thought. I can only imagine how fraught and nerve-wracking that trip might be for someone contemplating never returning stateside and possibly never seeing their family again. What a terrible time.

[PodcastTown]

On 9/23/2017 at 11:22 AM, JudyObscure said:

The draft.  The very idea that eighteen year old boys could be forced, against their will, to fight, kill, sacrifice limbs or even die, for the political objectives of old, powerful men   -- is shocking and barbaric. 

 Agree.  18 yrs of age. automatic weapons and an unlimited amount of ammunition and whatnot. What could possibly go wrong? 

In the middle of Episode 7, had to take a break. Emotionally draining.  As soon as I see Nixon in the clips, OH BOY!!!

On 9/23/2017 at 1:57 AM, Cheezwiz said:

 

My mouth dropped open when the North Vietnamese Officer explained that the Americans were easy to spot and track because they smoked and always left a trail of cigarette butts behind them.

 

 Yeah, was shocked too. They were just kids. All the bullsh!t they had to go through, gotta smoke once in awhile. 

[Cheezwiz]

14 minutes ago, PodcastTown said:

 Agree.  18 yrs of age. automatic weapons and an unlimited amount of ammunition and whatnot. What could possibly go wrong? 

In the middle of Episode 7, had to take a break. Emotionally draining.  As soon as I see Nixon in the clips, OH BOY!!! 

I'll be watching episode six tonight. Not looking forward to seeing Nixon's sweaty visage later on in the program. Yikes.

5 minutes ago, PodcastTown said:

 Yeah, was shocked too. They were just kids. All the bullsh!t they had to go through, gotta smoke once in awhile. 

Exactly what I was thinking when I was watching. It was probably the only small comfort those kids had in absolutely miserable conditions, and were I in the same position I wouldn't have given chain-smoking a second thought.

But to opponents intimately familiar with jungle surroundings, those cigarette butts had to have been the equivalent of a giant neon arrow pointing the way and saying "OVER HERE". Such a small easily overlooked detail.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Cheezwiz

[officetemp]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

The draft.  The very idea that eighteen year old boys could be forced, against their will, to fight, kill, sacrifice limbs or even die, for the political objectives of old, powerful men   -- is shocking and barbaric. 

New Yorkers rioted in the streets when the Union started up the draft in 1863 during the Civil War:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots .  [My comment's more or less off-topic, but oh, well.]

Re:  Field-stripping cigarettes--we were taught how to do that in Basic Training--I didn't smoke--so it surprised me that the troops just dropped their butts on the ground while out on a mission.  Maybe, by that time, they figured it wouldn't make much difference, anyway?

[Brattinella]

I'm pretty sure most soldiers were taught to police their cigarette butts.

[walnutqueen]

2 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

I've spent my whole life driving back and forth across the Peace Arch crossing that separates Canada and Washington State, never giving it a second thought. I can only imagine how fraught and nerve-wracking that trip might be for someone contemplating never returning stateside and possibly never seeing their family again. What a terrible time.

I have fond memories of Peace Arch Park in the late 50s/early 60s.  :-)

Watching this excellent series is certainly gut-wrenching.

[Cheezwiz]

28 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

I have fond memories of Peace Arch Park in the late 50s/early 60s.  :-)

Watching this excellent series is certainly gut-wrenching.

Off-topic @walnutqueen, but are you on the U.S. or Canadian side of the border? I agree, that is series is a gripping and emotional experience - a major learning experience too, since Vietnam was not on the school curriculum menu growing up. (P.S. I love your purple dino-avatar!)

[Raja]

2 hours ago, Brattinella said:

I'm pretty sure most soldiers were taught to police their cigarette butts.

It was probably the teaching method, you were taught to do it so that the Drill Sergeant would not yell at you or do worse. It being little different than cleaning the kitchen or the latrine. no reason why besides I told you so. With lax discipline in the field compared to basic training camps  one of the reasons was lost and then small unit leaders had other things on their minds to take care of. I recently saw a special on the Military Assistance Command (MACV) Recondo School and one of the lessons being taught to those making up the cadre of the small behind the lines long range patrols (Lurps, later officially known as Ranger Companies) was the no smoking rules.

[walnutqueen]

50 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

Off-topic @walnutqueen, but are you on the U.S. or Canadian side of the border? I agree, that is series is a gripping and emotional experience - a major learning experience too, since Vietnam was not on the school curriculum menu growing up. (P.S. I love your purple dino-avatar!)

Grew up on the North side (Vancouver, and later Langley, eh!).  Am now in sunny San Diego County, and miss the PNW to this day. (BTW, love your screen name!).

We didn't learn anything about Vietnam in school either; but I heard some horrific stories from some close friends who were veterans; their anguish was palpable and my heart ached for their lost youth.

Edited September 23, 2017 by walnutqueen

[Calvada]

I wonder why PBS insists on showing these documentaries within 2 weeks.  Why not show a couple episodes per week?  I find them really gut-wrenching to watch, plus adding 18 hours to my TV schedule in a lot.  I've only gotten through 3 episodes thus far, and I'm sure it will take me about a month to get through all of this.  

And why isn't the title of this thread Ken Burns & Lynn Novick:  The VIetnam War????  

[officetemp]

Episode 6 really illustrated how powerless the civilian population was during the war.  The adversaries were determined to wipe each other out and the civilians were literally caught in the crossfire.

The production team for this documentary seems to have taken great pains to paint a more complete picture of what happened during the war.  The image of that VC operative being summarily executed on the street by the South Vietnamese police commander is what most of us think of when "Vietnam War" is mentioned.  I never knew--before watching this film--about how the North Vietnamese Army/Viet Cong themselves carried out those purges of South Vietnamese "subversives" while they were conducting, and withdrawing from, the Tet Offensive.  (Also, in one of the earlier episodes, it was mentioned that some of the Viet Cong had serious differences of opinion with the Hanoi government with regards to the conduct of the war in the south and that many of the North Vietnamese citizenry were also growing tired of the war.  Always believed that the North Vietnamese side was pretty monolithic.)

Bobby Kennedy's comments during his presidential campaign regarding the men making the decisions about the war seemed kind of ironic in that it had been mentioned in an earlier episode that LBJ had retained a great number of JFK's cabinet and staff for Johnson's own administration.

The stories recounted by the former US military members seem so surreal.  Unfortunately for them, the events weren't just some fiction; they actually happened.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, Calvada said:

And why isn't the title of this thread Ken Burns & Lynn Novick:  The VIetnam War????  

Right?!  I was just reading this article about Novick a short time ago, written by someone who worked on this series.  It's a good one, about her in general, and her specific role as co-director of this film.

Quote

I wonder why PBS insists on showing these documentaries within 2 weeks.  Why not show a couple episodes per week? 

In an article I read announcing this series, but that I cannot find now, it was said that after this marathon two-week premiere, PBS is going air it one episode per week.

[Cheezwiz]

Episode 6 was a really tough watch. This was certainly the most graphically violent so far.

I had no idea that the North Vietnamese had actually managed to breach the U.S. Embassy in Saigon during Tet. The footage taken around the embassy was terrifying.

The personal stories veterans shared in this episode were so harrowing as well - I don't know how that physician even survived after being in a helicopter crash, being shot through the shoulder multiple times and then frog marched barefoot through the jungle for days on end. How did he not die of infection? I think I would have just laid down on the ground and given up.

And CPL Harris - imagine having the day you finally get to fly home from your tour of duty coincide with the Tet offensive. The guy survives two separate attacks  on two separate airstrips in two different cities. Then he finally makes it back home to Boston and can't get a cab ride home to Roxbury. Jesus.

[CarpeDiem54]

The first five episodes left me distressed and exhausted.  This one left me sobbing.  I turned 14 in August 1968.  The events of that year were terrible for a kid to wrap their mind around.  It was a frightening time and this brought it all back.  It was the year a girlfriend's older brother was killed in Vietnam.   I don't know how the veterans, on both sides, could talk about it without completely breaking down.  Maybe they did.

I realized that LBJ was only in his 50's.  He looked like he was 80.

What an outstanding series.  

Edited September 25, 2017 by CarpeDiem54

[Cheezwiz]

5 minutes ago, CarpeDiem54 said:

I realized that LBJ was only in his 50's.  He looked like he was 80. 

I was astonished by this too. Apparently he was only in his early 60's when he passed away. He looked much MUCH older. I was reading about his retirement, and one of the reasons (among many others) he decided not to run again, was the fact that men in his family tended to die very young. He realized he probably only had a few years left and did not want to spend it entangled in the Vietnam conflict. He was correct.

He retreated to his ranch, worked on his memoirs and Presidential library and apparently grew his hair long just before he died.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Cheezwiz

[friendperidot]

In the last few minutes of tonight's episode (6), a former soldier was talking about July 4, said they were not allowed to sing patriotic songs, but sometimes late at night they would softly sing. They understood that even though they were of different socio-economic, racial and religious backgrounds, they were still Americans. That leaves me sobbing. Why can't we see this and feel this way now?

While this documentary has it's flaws, and is so hard to watch, it's things like that they makes me feel and mourn for our country, for our young, for our military.

I have a great nephew who will be 19 on Halloween. He is lost. Sometimes I think maybe being in the military might be good for him, but mostly I am terrified that he might even consider enlisting. Then there's the whole thing about putting such young men and guns together, scares me spitless. I don't think a darn thing has been learned.

Then there is President Johnson. I was 18 in 1968, and started college so these times are part of my youth. I remember, "hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?" I have also heard that he heard those chants and it tore at him. But there was a scene in tonight's episode where he was ripping a reporter a new one about not wanting to hear the fake news all over the place. At least I think it was Johnson, I wasn't looking at the screen, but it sure sounded like him. Such awful times, such awful messes and we still never learn. 

In the summer of 1971, my summer job was with the Air Force recruiters, their receptionist was on maternity leave. We were on the top floor of a 3 story building near Union Station in KCMO. On the 2nd floor was the Army induction center. One of the things I remember most from that summer is walking up the open stairwell when the elevator was out and passing the 2nd floor and all those young men sitting there, waiting. Aside from the personal embarrassment of being a young woman in a too short mini skirt and knowing they were all looking. I didn't really have a clue what those young men were up against. 

[PodcastTown]

The editing in episode 6 was incredible. Thought I was watching an action movie or something. Just reality. 

[monakane]

10 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

I was astonished by this too. Apparently he was only in his early 60's when he passed away. He looked much MUCH older. I was reading about his retirement, and one of the reasons (among many others) he decided not to run again, was the fact that men in his family tended to die very young. He realized he probably only had a few years left and did not want to spend it entangled in the Vietnam conflict. He was correct.

He retreated to his ranch, worked on his memoirs and Presidential library and apparently grew his hair long just before he died.

I feel that Johnson was full of regret.  If not for Viet Nam, I think he would have been considered one of our greatest presidents.  I think he was a brilliant domestic strategist, but had no feel for foreign relations.  I read a book recently titled "The President's Club" and it's about the presidents' relationships with each other.  One of the things I learned is that Nixon scuttled the Johnson's 1968 peace talks.  Here's an article on it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/31/opinion/sunday/nixons-vietnam-treachery.html?mcubz=3

[meep.meep]

On 9/22/2017 at 4:17 PM, JudyObscure said:

We were talking about how shocking it might be to see friends or family members in these films.   I hope it wasn't upsetting for you.

No, not at all.  Just a little surprising.  Now I have to look for my 3 uncles, especially the one who was killed there.

On 9/22/2017 at 8:29 PM, shapeshifter said:

I heard part of an interview on NPR with Ken Burns and Lynn Novick this week. She was recounting how she was at (IIRC) a viewing of their last project, and when asked what was next, she said "Vietnam," whereupon a woman came forward and said she had those tapes. Novick expressed how grateful she was for that serendipitous happenstance. If you can still locate any of your tapes, @meep.meep, they too should be digitized and preserved so that someday (whenever you and your family decide) they too may serve to, in some small way, prevent this history from continuing to repeat itself. I felt they gave an intimate immediacy that was heroic without the vain glory of accounts altered by memory and years.

Ours are long gone, victim of many moves.  And since I work in a place where people think everything must be preserved, I have to say that our recorded conversations were not interesting in the least.  But, when I see people calling and skyping their loved ones who are part of the military in Iraq and Afghanistan, I realize how much the world has changed.  It took more than a week to get a cassette from Vietnam.  

[Caseysgirl]

I'm still not caught up on this yet ( the person who said this is a like an academic assignment was right) but it iS tearing me apart when these former young soldiers tell their stories as adults. As a college student at the time, I still remember that I had very little compassion for them and I'm ashamed of myself now.  How we can continue to send young people to war that profits no one is beyond  understanding.The lies that our government perpetuates to continue to send them make me ill.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I don't know how the veterans, on both sides, could talk about it without completely breaking down.  Maybe they did.

You do see some signs that it's still pretty emotionally loaded for the American side.  I was listening to a NPR interview with Burns and Novick, and they played clips from the audio tapes between a son and his family.  I know none of these people, and it made me want to cry.   

I think the North Vietnamese they interviewed are just coming at it from an entirely different perspective.  After all, they won, so the sacrifices made on their side were "worth" it.  This is as opposed to the American side where every death was in service of nothing.  It's just so depressing. 

[wonderwoman]

Quote

I wonder why PBS insists on showing these documentaries within 2 weeks.  Why not show a couple episodes per week?  I find them really gut-wrenching to watch, plus adding 18 hours to my TV schedule in a lot.  I've only gotten through 3 episodes thus far, and I'm sure it will take me a month to get through all of this.

Scheduling a project of this size is tricky, particularly since the broadcast networks are kicking off the Fall Season (such as it is). 

But, scheduling issues aside, and gut-wrenching as the material is, I'm not sure that spreading out the pain over five weeks is the answer. It was such a divisive time (and disturbingly prescient, given this country's current state of affairs), that there's something to be said for just sucking it up and plowing through -- kind of like lancing a boil or ripping off a bandaid. 

I have Roku, and while I certainly had no intention of binge-watching, last week I watched the first five episodes over the course of two days. I watched episode six as it aired last night, then seven and eight today. i'll finish up the rest tomorrow.  

Not sure if the music, which has been a blast from the past in so many ways, has been discussed. The standout for me, thus far is episode eight, which ends with Kent State, and opens with the haunting strains of George Harrison's "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" 

[Cheezwiz]

1 hour ago, wonderwoman said:

Not sure if the music, which has been a blast from the past in so many ways, has been discussed. The standout for me, thus far is episode eight, which ends with Kent State, and opens with the haunting strains of George Harrison's "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" 

The music on this show has been superb - both the nostalgic rock songs as well as the background score. I've been listening to the score composed by Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross on Spotify. Very atmospheric and haunting.

[Calvada]

Glad to see the change in the title of the thread.  

LBJ did look a few decades older than his actual age - I guess really serious heart issues plus unbelievable job stress ages a person.  The other person like this was King George VI - he was only 56 when he died and he looked about 80.  Given LBJ's heart issues, it's amazing he lived as long as he did.

I'm only mid way through episode 4.  As someone who grew up outside of Madison, Wis., I'm interested to see how much of the anti-war protests up to and including the bombing of Sterling Hall are included.  In those days before shopping malls opened, we went to downtown Madison to shop and also for medical appointments, and there were days when my parents were concerned about tear gas drifting from campus up to the Capitol Square.

The person who made the point about realizing that presidents & politicians & generals lie really hit home with me.  As I was moving from grade school to middle school to high school in the 60s into the 70s, the combination of Vietnam and Watergate was quite disillusioning.  "Question Authority" thus became my lifelong mantra.  

[magdalene]

Tricky Dick in action tonight, committing treason to win the presidency...it just makes you want to cry.

[Cheezwiz]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

Tricky Dick in action tonight, committing treason to win the presidency...it just makes you want to cry.

Agreed. I wanted to bang my head against the table during that reveal. He was already up to skullduggery even before taking office!

And Johnson caught him red-handed but couldn't reveal anything. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Cheezwiz

[shapeshifter]

13 hours ago, meep.meep said:

Ours are long gone, victim of many moves.  And since I work in a place where people think everything must be preserved, I have to say that our recorded conversations were not interesting in the least.  But, when I see people calling and skyping their loved ones who are part of the military in Iraq and Afghanistan, I realize how much the world has changed.  It took more than a week to get a cassette from Vietnam.  

I wrote and mailed a letter every day, which were delivered in packets only once a week. The boxes full of weekly letters I received back were destroyed in the mid 80s, about the same time the writer committed suicide. Unintended symbolism.
I've still only watched the first 2 episodes. This wouldn't be the first time I've failed to watch a show that was released in rapid succession or binge style. 

[PodcastTown]

Tunnel Warfare: I strangled a guy to death in the dark. If you turn the light on, you better be sure you're the only one there.  Jesus Lord, war is not to be taken lightly.  Episode 7 NO, NOT THE CAT!!! NOT THE CAT!!!! 

Vietnam war should've been the war to end all wars!! Brutal brutal stuff!!! 

[JudyObscure]

40 minutes ago, PodcastTown said:

 Episode 7 NO, NOT THE CAT!!! NOT THE CAT!!!! 

And even after he was caught, tied up and beaten, he still wanted to eat the cat.

I was interested to hear the one man tell about how exciting and thrilling (like a cocaine high) it was to be in the midst of battle.  I was wondering if anyone was going to talk about that.  You could see a certain amount of thrill in some of their faces -- more often, pure terror, of course.

The honesty we're getting from theses veterans is  breath taking.

[officetemp]

With the way the war was conducted on the US side, I really wonder if the senior leadership ever bothered to talk with any one below the battalion command level.  The orders coming down to the companies, platoons and squads seemed consistently contradictory; a lot of the action described seemed as if everything was done for symbolism and for show, and not for tangible goals that would have actually led to some advantages in the field.  Maddening.

 

The reveal that most of the North Vietnamese leadership sent their children out of harm's way while urging the ordinary citizenry to commit everything to the "Revolution" should not have surprised me, but it did.  The contrast in the images of the Party Elite offspring comfortably passing the time in Moscow, etc., while the ordinary North Vietnamese struggled to ferry supplies down the Ho Chi Minh Trail while under constant bombardment by US forces was so stark.

Also, the decadence displayed by the South Vietnamese elite class demonstrated how little regard that class had for the ordinary citizenry in the South.  Add to that behavior the widespread profiteering (by so many different parties), the breakdown of societal norms, the exploitation of the most vulnerable.  So ugly.  And in the meantime, the ordinary South Vietnamese citizenry were the ones making the most sacrifice and doing most of the dying.

 

That photo of LBJ and Lady Bird lying in bed watching the Democratic Convention proceedings on TV was so odd, especially since Lynda Bird and Luci Baines were in the picture, too, along with staffers and presumably Secret Service agents.  (And Lynda Bird in baby-doll pajamas, no less. . . )  Where did the film makers get that picture, I wonder?  Had it been taken by the official White House photographer?

 

Nixon.  Jeez.

 

I don't know why, but I felt incredibly happy and relieved when we found out that both the Viet Cong truck driver and her fiancé survived the war and were able to reunite and get married a few years later.  I guess maybe it was because it was a small bright spot in an overwhelmingly bleak story.

[kassygreene]

1 hour ago, officetemp said:

...

That photo of LBJ and Lady Bird lying in bed watching the Democratic Convention proceedings on TV was so odd, especially since Lynda Bird and Luci Baines were in the picture, too, along with staffers and presumably Secret Service agents.  (And Lynda Bird in baby-doll pajamas, no less. . . )  Where did the film makers get that picture, I wonder?  Had it been taken by the official White House photographer?

...

I don't know why, but I felt incredibly happy and relieved when we found out that both the Viet Cong truck driver and her fiancé survived the war and were able to reunite and get married a few years later.  I guess maybe it was because it was a small bright spot in an overwhelmingly bleak story.

I believe the final vote for the nomination was sometime after o-god-hundred, and therefore the family was awakened to watch it; it very likely was the official WH photographer.  Conventions used to run into the early hours every time, because that was when the deals were brokered to nominate someone (smoke-filled back rooms).

I was also very happy to know that that VC couple found each other and married (and from the picture looked to be happy and in good health).  I was also impressed with McPeak, who wound up as Air Force Chief of Staff and for three weeks during that time as the Acting Secretary of the Air Force; in a later episode he mentions that he loved the music of the time and listened whenever he could.