Star Trek: Voyager - General Discussion

[Peace 47]

Voyager has never been my particular jam (other than its theme song which is actually my favorite of all the Treks), but I just watched the episode “One Small Step” on BBCA the other morning (the S6 episode where the 2032 Mars mission astronaut was sucked into that space phenomenon like Voyager’s flier later was, and then Seven had to board the Mars capsule to get a piece of equipment to save their own ship), and I thought that the last 25 minutes or so were particularly well done.

I thought that the reactions of Seven and Tom were quite touching as they listened to John Kelly’s final mission records; I thought the direction was good in never showing John Kelly’s dead body but rather just giving glimpses of his arm or his suit or his hand, and I thought it was moving how Seven beamed him back for a proper funeral, which I thought was the most moving Star Trek funeral since Spock’s.  Basically, I just thought they did a good job of establishing the comradarie of explorers and deference to the fact that it was hazardous but necessary work.  I thought about the TNG episode “The Royale” where the cast was like, “Huh.  Dead old astronaut.  Whatever.”  I mean, I like that TNG episode a lot (although I know it’s polarizing), but they sure didn’t have many emotions about one of their explorer forefathers.

 

On 11/2/2017 at 11:15 PM, Mom x 3 said:

The series got much better when Jeri Ryan came on, and she is a fabulous actress.  

In its original run, I never saw any of the Seven episodes because I stopped watching  in S2, but I see why she was a popular addition.  She was really good here.  I liked her a lot on “Boston Public” too.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Peace 47

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

Voyager has never been my particular jam (other than its theme song which is actually my favorite of all the Treks), but I just watched the episode “One Small Step” on BBCA the other morning (the S6 episode where the 2032 Mars mission astronaut was sucked into that space phenomenon like Voyager’s flier later was, and then Seven had to board the Mars capsule to get a piece of equipment to save their own ship), and I thought that the last 25 minutes or so were particularly well done.

I thought that the reactions of Seven and Tom were quite touching as they listened to John Kelly’s final mission records; I thought the direction was good in never showing John Kelly’s dead body but rather just giving glimpses of his arm or his suit or his hand, and I thought it was moving how Seven beamed him back for a proper funeral, which I thought was the most moving Star Trek funeral since Spock’s. Basically, I just thought they did a good job of establishing the comradarie of explorers and deference to the fact that it was hazardous but necessary work.  I thought about the TNG episode “The Royale” where the cast was like, “Huh.  Dead old astronaut.  Whatever.”  I mean, I like that TNG episode a lot (although I know it’s polarizing), but they sure didn’t have many emotions about one of their explorer forefathers.

In its original run, I never saw any of the Seven episodes because I stopped watching  in S2, but I see why she was a popular addition.  She was really good here.  I liked her a lot on “Boston Public” too.

Yes, I loved the eulogy she gave at the memorial service. As I recall, she said something to the effect that even though she never really knew John Kelly personally, she had nevertheless learned a lot from him about herself and about humanity from reviewing his logs.  I thought that was an especially touching tribute from her, since at this stage of her development, she was still somewhat contemptuous of humans in general and hadn't yet learned how to experience and process human emotions and relationships.

[Peace 47]

Agreed that the eulogy was really beautifully done.  Janeway also said some nice things about space (nothingness) in reality being the concept that binds them all together as explorers.  And I just thought that it nicely stated one of the tenants of Trek.  In fact, there’s a really lovely 50th anniversary Trek YouTube video out there about the theme of good faith space exploration, and the eulogy comes up in it. 

I also liked how Seven finished her portion of the eulogy by saying softly, “The Yankees.  In 6 games.”  (She was telling the dead astronaut the World Series results because he had mentioned in his log that his one regret was not getting to see how it turned out.)

[friendperidot]

That's one of my favorite Voyager episodes. I saw it for the first time just a few days after John Glenn died, and for me that made it so touching. 

[friendperidot]

Been 6 weeks or so. Now my question is, did the Borg ever try to assimilate non humanoid species? I know they almost lost to species 8472 and did not assimilate them, but what about species like the Aquatics of the Xindi? All Borg I've seen were generally, 2 legs, 2 arms, head, humanoidish. I'm not a big science fiction fan, but I've read an alternate universe series (not Star Trek related) where one of the species was more canine like, they did eventually evolve to 2 feet and 2 arms and became the Anubis of Ancient Egypt. And in the Star Wars Universe, there were non humanoid species, Jabba the Hut comes to mind quickly. But he probably could not be assimilated. 

I really need more to do with my time.

[Maverick]

 Star Trek has several species which didn't evolve from primates.  We see a felinoid species in the Council scenes in Star Trek IV.  The Federation President in the DS9 two-parter Homefront/Paradise Lost from a a bovinoid species (one that evolved from cows).  And the Xindi had the Aquatics, Insectoid, Reptilian and (unseen) Avian species.  I would assume the Borg could assimilate any of these, if they wanted.

 Then you have other species that are fundamentally different like the Horta and the Founders.  I think whether the Borg could assimilate them depends on which version you're talking about.  Pre-First Contact, I would think no.  After they were converted to space zombies in First Contact and given the magic nanoprobes I would suspect they could assimilate just about any species that has a tangible form.  Species 8472 wasn't impervious to assimilation because they weren't humanoid, it was because they had a unique immune system that could repel the magic nanoprobes.  

 Presumably the Borg have encountered species like the Xindi Aquatics and assimilated them for their knowledge but doesn't utilize them as drones, or they're used as drones on in circumstances when it would sense (i.e. if they were invading another aquatic world.

[legaleagle53]

45 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 Star Trek has several species which didn't evolve from primates.  We see a felinoid species in the Council scenes in Star Trek IV.  The Federation President in the DS9 two-parter Homefront/Paradise Lost from a a bovinoid species (one that evolved from cows).  And the Xindi had the Aquatics, Insectoid, Reptilian and (unseen) Avian species.  I would assume the Borg could assimilate any of these, if they wanted.

 Then you have other species that are fundamentally different like the Horta and the Founders.  I think whether the Borg could assimilate them depends on which version you're talking about.  Pre-First Contact, I would think no.  After they were converted to space zombies in First Contact and given the magic nanoprobes I would suspect they could assimilate just about any species that has a tangible form.  Species 8472 wasn't impervious to assimilation because they weren't humanoid, it was because they had a unique immune system that could repel the magic nanoprobes.  

 Presumably the Borg have encountered species like the Xindi Aquatics and assimilated them for their knowledge but doesn't utilize them as drones, or they're used as drones on in circumstances when it would sense (i.e. if they were invading another aquatic world.

And there are some species that the Borg have simply never bothered to assimilate, such as the Kazon (as Seven of Nine explained it, the Collective decided that there was nothing distinctive enough about the Kazon that made them worth assimilating).

Edited December 31, 2017 by legaleagle53

[blueray]

I'd imagine the couldn't assimilate changelings, that wouldn't work very well.

[legaleagle53]

And I don't think the Borg could ever assimilate the Q or the Prophets, since either race could simply poof them out of existence with just a snap of their fingers.

Edited December 31, 2017 by legaleagle53

[Maverick]

 The original version probably couldn't assimilate the Founders but the zombie version likely could.  Since they assimilate using the magic nanoprobes, they just have to inject a Founder and let them do their work.  The Founders still have an (ill-defined) cellular structure even in their gelatinous form which would be susceptible to the magic nanoprobes.   If Section 31 could infect them with a virus, then the Borg could most likely effect them as well.

 Aside from being omnipotent, I would assume Q and the Prophets would be immune since they're non-corporeal which means there are other species, such as the Calamarain, the Beta XII-A entity and Gorgon that would be as well. 

[John Potts]

I'd vote "No" on their ability to assimilate Changelings because they're just too different. Though the real answer is "It depends on the writer" and whether TPTB would allow it. I suspect it wouldn't be allowed, because if a Changeling was Borg-ified, they could potentially spread that throughout the Great Link, which would give the Borg control of most of the Gamma Quadrant at a stroke (depending at what point it was in the timeline, obviously).

[readster]

4 hours ago, John Potts said:

I'd vote "No" on their ability to assimilate Changelings because they're just too different. Though the real answer is "It depends on the writer" and whether TPTB would allow it. I suspect it wouldn't be allowed, because if a Changeling was Borg-ified, they could potentially spread that throughout the Great Link, which would give the Borg control of most of the Gamma Quadrant at a stroke (depending at what point it was in the timeline, obviously).

True, however, if a set group like Section 31 could figure out a way to create a virus that slowly killed off the Changlings before the cure was found. How hard would it be for the Borg to assimilate or learn of a new science that could alter cellular structure like Changlings at some point?

[VCRTracking]

Set Course For Home: In Defense Of STAR TREK: VOYAGER

Excerpt:
 

Quote

 

One of the most common complaints leveled against Voyager is that it never followed through on its central ideas - those of a lone Federation ship journeying across unfamiliar space with no help in sight, and of a Federation crew merging uncomfortably with Maquis rebels. As far as the rebels go, that’s a fair point: the two crews get along surprisingly smoothly for two populations bordering on civil war, although friction between them drives more episodes than viewers probably remember. The complaint about Voyager’s journey being too easy, though, derives most of its fuel from continuity nitpicking. Voyager crashes more shuttlecraft (including a ton of Delta Flyers) and fires more torpedoes than it’s technically got to lose, sure - but such complaints misinterpret what Voyager was really about.

Upon a revisit, it's clear Voyager was never meant to be the gritty survival show fans thought they wanted (largely retrospectively, it’s worth noting, thanks to the rebooted “anti-Trek” Battlestar Galactica premiering shortly after Voyager’s conclusion). Viewed with fresh eyes and an open mind, Voyager was always about making the best of a bad situation: a crew made up of sworn political enemies, coming together to seek out their shared home - and taking the opportunity to do some honest-to-Science space exploration along the way. In other words, it’s BSG’s search for Earth, but fueled by Star Trek’s sense of discovery and optimism. In a sense, it’s almost a direct refutation of the political greyness of Deep Space Nine, refocusing attention at how tiny and precious is our pale blue dot - and how petty are our disagreements over it.

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by VCRTracking

[CherryAmes]

On 6/17/2017 at 10:33 PM, MaKaM said:

Waking Moments: Aliens put everyone in a dream sleep to kill them (?). Motivation was unclear. Waking people were mean to them when they inserted themselves into nightmares? I don't know. It was weird. Chakotay got to carry on being a bit more mystical from the last one and it worked okay. The fact that everyone ended up afraid to go to sleep seemed very realistic.

I just saw this episode and was coming here to ask if anyone knows what the aliens were trying to do.  I actually like this episode a lot but the basic premise just doesn't make sense.  Or does it and I just missed the point somewhere?

[BlossomCulp]

On 6/1/2018 at 4:03 PM, CherryAmes said:

I just saw this episode and was coming here to ask if anyone knows what the aliens were trying to do.  I actually like this episode a lot but the basic premise just doesn't make sense.  Or does it and I just missed the point somewhere?

This is one of those episodes (and all the Star Trek incarnations have them) where I like the story but the premise is weak!  

[Bort]

Maybe they wanted to use the crew as batteries a la the Matrix?

 

...I got nuthin’

[friendperidot]

I am such a cry baby. Tonight on H&I, Voyager arrived home. Tom & B'Lana's baby was born and like every time, I was sobbing. Tomorrow, the voyage begins anew. 

It didn't help that Deep Space Nine ran my favorite episode tonight, the one with Nog recuperating from his amputation by living with Vic in the holosuite. And then Enterprise just started the series over again last night think I'll go wash my hair so I can prepare for NYPD Blue, with my luck it'll be the episode where John Clark Sr commits suicide.

[BlossomCulp]

They've circled around to the first season of Voyager and I'm surprised at how many of the episodes they've aired so far that I really like, and remember liking back in the day!  IF you had asked me I'd have said I didn't particularly like the first couple of years all that much - and it's true that I think it got stronger and better as the series progressed - but wow some of these early episodes were very, very good!  

[friendperidot]

Oh good grief, a doctor singing episode tonight on H&I. Think I'll switch to Law & Order on WE.

[friendperidot]

Tonight, the episode where Voyager time travels back to 1996. Tom & Tuvok  driving to the Observatory, I looked at the tv screen and immediately said, "M*A*S*H*." I am the least observant person about tv, I don't really watch, only listen, but I know that mountain/hill. I've seen the M*A*SH* opening thousands of times.

[craziness]

Not sure if this is the place to post this, but I saw that Kate Mulgrew is going to be on the Star Trek cruise in early 2020 (yes, over a year away).

[wanderingstar]

A zoo just named a baby giraffe Neelix.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Gillian Rosh

[marina to]

On 5/24/2018 at 7:01 PM, VCRTracking said:

Set Course For Home: In Defense Of STAR TREK: VOYAGER

Excerpt:
 

Thanks for this link. It reminded me why I like this series so much.

[friendperidot]

Tonight on H&I the last episode aired. I had trouble concentrating in the first half because of some family drama, but it got resolved and I could watch. I have been wondering if Tom & B'Lanna's baby was born in the Delta or Alpha quadrant, but I think she was born in the wormhole. Did they ever announce the baby's name? And I was in tears at the end, but it might have been because my nephew let me know he was safe. He had been out of communication for 48 hours, we were on the verge of reporting him as a missing person. He is recovering from a broken femur, has no service on his phone, which is fine when he can access wifi, but he couldn't. He will get a couple of earfuls when he gets home.

[SVNBob]

35 minutes ago, friendperidot said:

I have been wondering if Tom & B'Lanna's baby was born in the Delta or Alpha quadrant, but I think she was born in the wormhole. Did they ever announce the baby's name?

She was indeed born in the conduit.  And while they never officially announced the name, she was apparently named after B'Elanna's mother, Miral.  The name was noted in the script, and B'Elanna mentioned she and Tom were considering that name when she spoke to her father in "Author, Author".

[friendperidot]

watching the episode where Tom and Neelix are fighting over Kes, then sent on an away mission to work out their differences. They find a reptilian egg in a cave and when it hatches, all I can think is "not the mama, not the mama!"

[friendperidot]

talking to myself again, as usual. I thought B'Laina was half Klingon and half human. So are Klingons and Vulcans related races? I don't remember Worf going through Pom'far (however it's spelled) but on the episode tonight, on H&I, a Vulcan shipmate, not Tuvoc, but I don't remember his name, he was in Pom'far and on a planet they were on B'Laina was also going through Pom'far. Then they fought and then there's the implication that Tom Paris and B'Laina took care of what they needed to in an old fashioned way (even if it was a little rough). Am I just confused or are they related or were the writers of Voyager rewriting histories? 

[SVNBob]

I think the explanation in the episode was along these lines:

Ensign Vorik (the Vulcan in question), while in the early stages of pon farr, semi-unintentionally initiated a mind meld with B'Elanna.  (I say semi-unintentionally, because he had proposed marriage to her at the time, and Vulcans usually meld with their mates.  Between that cultural "standard" and the oncoming blood lust, he may not have consciously started the meld, but he did do so.)  Because of the mental link of the meld and his pon farr, B'Elanna's Klingon mating instincts also kicked into overdrive.

As for "resolving" B'Elanna's "pon farr", Paris was encouraged by Tuvok to "help her" since she had been attempting to go through Klingon mating rituals with him.  (And to his credit (and the writers), even though he was interested in her, he forced them both to stop several times since she was not in control and he did not want to take advantage of her impaired condition.)  But before they could consumate anything, Vorik attacked Paris, trying to invoke the Kal-if-fee, the ritual fight for the hand of the female as seen in TOS's "Amok Time".  B'Elanna chose herself to be her champion, and beat the ever-living hell out of Vorik, which snapped them both out of the titular "Blood Fever".

[starri]

I'd never seen the episode "Retrospect" before, but my husband and I picked it at random while we practice social distancing.

I am so angry at this episode, I don't know if I'll be able to watch another VOY episode again.  I don't think there is a single Trek episode I hate more than this one, and yes, that includes "A Night in Sickbay."

Basically, the Doctor helps Seven discover a memory where she was assaulted by the Alien of the Week.  He freaks out at having been accused, Tuvok and the Doctor investigate, and at the first evidence that suggests Seven could be mistaken, they instantly start believing the man and side-eye Seven.  Then, the guy kills himself because his life has been ruined, and we're left with Seven having to feel guilty about that.

Worse, the episode ends not with Seven, but with the DOCTOR having to wrestle with his fee-fees.

I wanted to put my foot through the TV.

[Stardancer Supreme]

On 12/22/2015 at 6:34 PM, Miss Dee said:

I always thought it was stupid that the writers didn't go for the Janeway/Chakotay romance near the end of the series. Not because I shipped them all that hard, but because it was the ONE Star Trek series where such a plot line could be explored with some thematic resonance. Most people would be in the position Picard and Wendy were in "Lessons"...it's not a good idea, so someone transfers off the ship and they keep it long-distance, or someone gives up their career, or takes a demotion, or the two simply break up.

The fascinating thing with Voyager was *none of that would have worked*. If Janeway had fallen for a member of the crew, short of a Vulcan "forget" mind-meld, what was she going to do about it? Chakotay (if that's what they had decided to go with) wouldn't be able to transfer anywhere. She can't afford to have him out of the chain of command, so leaving his field commission for a civilian life wouldn't have worked. She can't take a demotion; the crew are relying on her to go home. And they can't get away from each other, there's nowhere else to go.

So how would someone deal with an overpowering attraction and heightened feelings in a situation like that? Personally, I think Tuvok would have told her to go for it, not because he thought it was that hot of an idea but because logically none of the other solutions would have worked in their circumstances, and not acting on it would probably cause a bigger FUBAR than if she did. It would have been one of the few times where a romance for the captain and a crewmember would actually have an impact on plots and storylines. Didn't have to be Chakotay, although having it be the first officer would have been the best kind of monkey wrench to make the situation even more difficult.

I'm pretty convinced the writers didn't go there because they didn't want the one female captain/series lead in the franchise be the one who had a big romance storyline. But DAMMIT that was a waste of a good plot that literally could not have been done on any other series.

Especially considering that Mulgrew and Beltran had explosive chemistry with each other. I noticed that in the season two episode "Resolutions".  I also thought it was a wasted opportunity.  That romance with Seven always baffled me. 

 

[Cobb Salad]

2 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Especially considering that Mulgrew and Beltran had explosive chemistry with each other. I noticed that in the season two episode "Resolutions".  I also thought it was a wasted opportunity.  That romance with Seven always baffled me. 

 

Yeah, while watching that episode initially I thought it was a cop out to not pursue it further.  Janeway was hell bent on studying the disease but pretty much telling Voyager leave and don’t come back for us - it seemed her and Chakotay would have done pretty well for themselves if left on their own for good.   In the end I agree it would have made more sense to have a Janeway/Chakotay pairing at the end instead of the all of a sudden romance between Chakotay and Seven.  

I would have also like to have seen how the Maquis on Voyager fared once the crew disembarked on Earth, Janeway surely would have gone to bat for them to help them.  

[The Crazed Spruce]

Garrett Wang and Robert Duncan McNeill are making a Voyager podcast!

They said in the replies that it'll be an episode-by-episode breakdown of the show.

[Charone]

Yeah, I think that if any romance was to happen between Laneway/Chakotay it should be towards the end.  But I think Chakotay and B'elana had some kind of chemistry .  Paris/Torras did grow on me.  Chakotay/Seven just did not do anything for me.  I wished TPTB would have at least given us a little fan service and have Seven experiment a little deeper something with a woman.  

[Stardancer Supreme]

25 minutes ago, Charone said:

Yeah, I think that if any romance was to happen between Laneway/Chakotay it should be towards the end.  But I think Chakotay and B'elana had some kind of chemistry .  Paris/Torras did grow on me.  Chakotay/Seven just did not do anything for me.  I wished TPTB would have at least given us a little fan service and have Seven experiment a little deeper something with a woman.  

Seven is in Star Trek: Picard... 

[Cobb Salad]

On 4/17/2020 at 9:47 PM, The Crazed Spruce said:

Garrett Wang and Robert Duncan McNeill are making a Voyager podcast!

They said in the replies that it'll be an episode-by-episode breakdown of the show.

The first three episodes are available on Apple Podcasts.  I’ll be checking them out later today.  

[Affogato]

On 11/3/2016 at 7:46 PM, stillshimpy said:

 

I know the writing seldom did him any favors, and as near as I can tell, the directors appeared to actively hate him because he had the emotional equilibrium of a seesaw, but I hope it's never too much Neelix bashing.  I don't deeply despise the character or anything but sometimes my responses to him are so ungenerous, it kind of flips me out.  I mean, out-of-character, "I remain emotionally inaccessible to this character....or he, to me...." like the other night I watched a hugely, hugely problematic episode on many levels.  

It's essentially the mind-rape "remember our genocide....as the villains who perpetrated it! And to really be lacking nuance here, our big ol' transmitter looks insanely phallic with much attention called to it's throbbing end (god GAWD show, the hell?) " episode , the title of which is escaping me.  

Anyway, something incredibly horrible happens to Tom, Chakotay, Harry and Neelix in that they remember themselves as having participated in a genocide that actually took place hundreds of years earlier but that someone in their infinite wisdom decided "we will just broadcast this into your ships, creating PTSD survivors, in space, who will be in essence killed as the people they were before...so no irony there!..." would be an appropriate memorial.  Because someone somewhere thought that mind violation would be a way to ...uh...honor?....a murdered people?  Man, if that was my dead butt in the mists of time, I'd be one outraged spook at the violation, violence, and wrong that kept on giving.  

The way Voyager set it up there was at least a warning beacon but here's hoping it was lengthy, detailed and not prone to English understatement because I don't think offering to psychologically maim yourself is a good answer for honoring the fallen.  

So a meaty episode in concept, problematic -- even for the time period in which it was made -- on issues of consent and a chance for the entire crew to just swing from the heels with their trauma-acting-chops on display.  

I spent so much of it thinking, "Please stop that shrieking" at Neelix.  Neelix who was a pure freaking victim of wrongdoing and was suffering horribly.  Yeah, I felt like a gem of a human being there, but clearly, I hate yelly acting choices.  He was 100% worthy of compassion there but the scenery-chewing choices of both the script, the director, the staging upstaged everything, every time they cut to it. 

It really isn't the actor, I've seen him in other things and he's honestly a good actor, in my estimation.  But damn, pipe down, dude.  

Well, late to the party.

Voyager fixes the memorial obelisk (it is broken. It wasn't supposed to cause permanent trauma to visitors) and sets up the warning beacon in orbit. 

Neelix? . Yes, he was way too eager to please to be likeable most of the time, especially at first, and must have grated on the quieter, more refined Starfleet group. When it was on I stopped watching after maybe the second season (just watched the whole thing now) and at that point I would have found him irritating, even as I understood his function, but he grew on me, and he also gained confidence. There was some real character growth there.

Kes? though. What happened with her? She humanized the doctor, sure, and didn't seem to have a lot of story left when she expanded into the universe (and then apparently shrunk again)? Anyway, it doesn't make much sense to me. 

[Affogato]

This was a good thing to watch during the lockdown. Janeway is a great captain. The principles of the federation are upheld. The future is good.  I do agree with others that they should have spent more time on things like the integration of the Maquis.

I got really tired of the Kazon and was glad to move past them. 

I want the doctor to get his siblings, the ones doing menial labor, to strike for holorights. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Comic Con is going to be free online this year due to COVID-19. This panel hasn't been assigned a time slot yet so be sure to check the Comic Con website for the schedule.

Quote

TV Guide's Fan Favorites
Featuring Hale Appleman (The Magicians), Chris Chalk (Perry Mason), Robbie Amell (Upload), Kennedy McMann (Nancy Drew), Jeri Ryan (Star Trek: Picard), Richard Harmon (The 100), Lindsey Morgan (The 100), Harvey Guillen (What We Do in the Shadows), and Alex Newell (Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist). 

[Maverick]

 H&I showed Macrocosm the other night.  I'm fear this is another episode where Star Trek was prescient about the future and 2 foot tall Covid viruses will be chasing us around by Christmas.  

[Maverick]

 Watching "The Gift" with Seven of Nice spending half the episode on the Doctor's biobed.  It's...interesting because it draws so much attention to the fact that her Borg armor has a cinched waist and boobs.  Yes, boobs.  Armored Borg Boobs.    Crap like this is why I hate how they destroyed the Borg after their first couple of appearances.    They went from genderless automatons under the control off a hive mind to scowling, EVIL zombies with blinky lights, form fitting latex and vampire tubes.   And boobs.   Borg Boobs.

[txhorns79]

On 8/17/2020 at 11:18 PM, Maverick said:

Yes, boobs.  Armored Borg Boobs.    Crap like this is why I hate how they destroyed the Borg after their first couple of appearances.    They went from genderless automatons under the control off a hive mind to scowling, EVIL zombies with blinky lights, form fitting latex and vampire tubes.   And boobs.   Borg Boobs.

In fairness, the Borg Queen had the same armored form fitting look going on, and her appearance predated 7 of 9 by a number of years. 

I was watching the show on Netflix.  Equinox is a good two-parter.  It's easy for the Voyager crew to judge, but I do think Ransom has a point that when you are truly desperate, you start making decisions that you might otherwise never have made.  I don't say that to excuse what they were doing, but I don't get the impression Janeway has ever been in a position of being that desperate.  It reminded me a little bit of that episode where that alien disguised his ship to make it seem like it was a Federation vessel in order to get vengeance on Janeway for the deal she made with the Borg.  She was held to account and offered a similar justification of doing what they needed to do and not having a choice. 

[starri]

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Equinox is a good two-parter.

It would have been even better if we'd ever seen the surviving Equinox crew members again.  Aside from sanding off all the edges of the Maquis characters immediately, that may have been show's biggest waste of a great setup.

[txhorns79]

4 hours ago, starri said:

It would have been even better if we'd ever seen the surviving Equinox crew members again.  Aside from sanding off all the edges of the Maquis characters immediately, that may have been show's biggest waste of a great setup.

I didn't mind not seeing them, as I didn't find them particularly interesting.  I think only two of the ones who survived even had speaking parts.  I would have liked to see some more fallout from the Doctor's program being altered.  I appreciated that Seven handled it in a practical matter, but I'd think the Doctor would have been fairly traumatized by it.  I also thought Janeway was a little too quick to forgive Chakotay for his insubordination, and would have liked to see some continued tension in their relationship.  The look Janeway gives Chakotay when he overrode her plan for how to get information from the captured Equinox crew member was just so good, and I would have been happy to see her demote him to Neelix's kitchen assistant.   

[Maverick]

12 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

In fairness, the Borg Queen had the same armored form fitting look going on, and her appearance predated 7 of 9 by a number of years. 

 Yes, the Borg Queen had the same space vamp look and it was just a ridiculous.   At least with her, she was suppose to be a distinct leader of the Borg which was some justification for her looking different (but doesn't explain the 50s-style They Invaded to Mate With Us look).   Seven was just another drone so her look doesn't make sense.  Certainly a far cry from Q's "not a he, not a she" description to Picard when they first encounter a Borg drone.

5 hours ago, starri said:

It would have been even better if we'd ever seen the surviving Equinox crew members again.  Aside from sanding off all the edges of the Maquis characters immediately, that may have been show's biggest waste of a great setup.

They show was all about missed opportunities.  They should have been losing and adding crew members throughout their journey and when they finally do add some , they're completely ignored,   Another missed opportunity from this episode is, while it was originally implied  the Caretaker was sending ships back where he got them from but Equinox disproves that.  If there's other ships (even presumably from the Beta and Gama quadrants), Voyager should have at least heard stories about--if not run into--other lost ships trying to get home.

 

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I also thought Janeway was a little too quick to forgive Chakotay for his insubordination, and would have liked to see some continued tension in their relationship.  The look Janeway gives Chakotay when he overrode her plan for how to get information from the captured Equinox crew member was just so good, and I would have been happy to see her demote him to Neelix's kitchen assistant.   

 What they really needed to explore is that in the beginning, Janeway is a super straight-laced, by-the-book Starfleet officer.   By the end, she's much more hellbent on accomplishing her goals--whether getting home or stopping an enemy--to the point where Chakotay, the former terrorist leader, has to reign her in.   They try to explain it in a roundabout way in Night, where Janeway secludes herself in her quarters over guilt but there was a lot more to mine there.  Especially since, apparently, Voyager was Janeway's first command.   That really should have come up more.  

[txhorns79]

42 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 Yes, the Borg Queen had the same space vamp look and it was just a ridiculous.   At least with her, she was suppose to be a distinct leader of the Borg which was some justification for her looking different (but doesn't explain the 50s-style They Invaded to Mate With Us look).   Seven was just another drone so her look doesn't make sense.  Certainly a far cry from Q's "not a he, not a she" description to Picard when they first encounter a Borg drone.

That's very true.  I give them some leeway with that, only because I'm sure when the Borg were first introduced, they did not have every single thing completely sketched out, and certain ideas about them were allowed to evolve to fit into the day to day of a weekly series.      

[Bort]

1 hour ago, Maverick said:

Certainly a far cry from Q's "not a he, not a she" description to Picard when they first encounter a Borg drone.

I find that to be a handwave because anything Q says is suspect due to him being so full of shit all the time. 

[Maverick]

 True, but it's not exactly something worth lying about.   More importantly, the originally costuming supports the androgyny comment.  Which makes sense.  Why would a race like the Borg have a need to outwardly express gender, of need gender at all.   Even in "I, Borg" where Hugh is identified as male, he still presents largely androgynous.   It's not until the movies and Voyager when the Borg costumes become less bulky and more form-fitting.

 To be fair about the boob issue, when Picard was turned into Locutus, the Borg gave him armored abs.  Which is equally as WTF as armored  breasts.   

[Bort]

1 hour ago, Maverick said:

Why would a race like the Borg have a need to outwardly express gender, of need gender at all.

Maybe not so much expressing gender but Borg boobs need support just like regular boobs. Otherwise you end up with a lot of drones with back problems. 

[marinw]

40 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

Maybe not so much expressing gender but Borg boobs need support just like regular boobs.

Ditto for male anatomy. See: Locutus's cod piece.

I'll show myself out.

Edited September 18, 2020 by marinw

[KatWay]

on my Star Trek binge watching I'm now nearing the end of Voyager. I had always heard it's the "bad" one out of the three 90s shows, TNG, DS9 and VOY and I have to say I don't totally agree? TNG and DS9 both had more stinkers for me, it's just that VOY doesn't ever reach their heights (TNG had the best individual episodes, DS9 had the best overall story arc for sure). It's a bit mediocre but perfectly enjoyable for the most part.

I will say that it feels like it just never lives up to its potentially far more interesting premise. Stranded in the Delta Quadrant, with a crew of ex-terrorists and there's really SO LITTLE conflict?? I didn't need it to be a gritty survival drama or super dark, but it would have benefited more from a DS9 approach than the TNG one they were aiming for. Some serialised storytelling - they practically blow up Voyager in a bunch of eps, in the middle of nowhere and yet the ship is mysteriously back to pristine condition the next ep, there's almost never any "crap we need those parts and have no way of getting them" conundrums. And the maquis and starfleet are essentially best buds after ep 3, all the characters lose their edge. I know Paris and B'Elanna are a loved pairing but I found them surprisingly boring together for a half Klingon ex-maquis and a former prisoner rebel. Like Harry Kim in his naive optimism (a woefully underutilised character) should have felt more like a foil to other characters but they all turned pretty straightlaced anyway after the initial episodes.

also Janeway and Chakotay have great chemistry and so much storyline potential and then the writers get him with Seven out of nowhere. Why is Star Trek so bad at writing romance. Literally who asked for this.

Most improved character goes to Neelix probably, I found him annoying as hell in S1 but in later seasons he works very well (in smaller doses). Him and Naomi Wildmann are a nice friendship too. While I think replacing an eye candy actress with another eye candy actress is...hmmm, I will say that Seven is a much better character than Kes who I didn't mind but was mostly just there. Although Seven takes up a lot of screentime...some of the other characters start being very underused in comparison.