S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Hecate7]

4 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

I think a Sansa/Gendry marriage is more likely, if it DOES come down to it. Mostly because marriage in this world is political, not typically romantic, and there are certain expectations (socially and politically) for a "wife" among the great houses that Sansa has been preparing for, and Arya avoiding at all cost (naturally). Plus, I like the symmetry that Sansa was engaged to a Baratheon back in season one, as a political move to unite their houses, and may end up living up to those expectations by finally marrying the only WORTHY Baratheon, and consolidating their power to defeat the Lannisters (bonus that Cersei tried to interfere with the planned Stark/Baratheon union by trying to marry Sansa to Joffrey, who was actually a Lannister, and then Tyrion. I would LOVE it if Sansa's political power-marriage was Cersei's undoing). Plus, Arya would benefit equally from having a weaponsmith as a brother-in-law or as a husband (I don't really see them as more than close friends... but then again, they haven't met up again as more mature young adults. Maybe their chemistry will have blossomed with puberty ;) But I'm totally open to the show convincing me either way!

As I recall, the solid gold hand was Cersei's idea, and although he never said anything, I got the impression that Jaime didn't like it, and found it cumbersome, heavy, and ostentatious, and would have preferred something more functional. I thought he was covering it up (as well as his usual armour) to reduce the chances of being recognized while travelling. The gold hand is a pretty unique feature!

 

Yes! This is totally it. The show hasn't given us much to go on, but I do think the sisters were genuinely experiencing conflict, as they had both endured trial-by-fire and become different people, and were trying to figure out who they were, what they wanted, and how they fit together. LF took advantage of that friction to try and create more profitable chaos, but he pushed too far when he tried to convince Sansa that Arya actually wanted to kill her for her position. There was just no way. That's likely when he ironically became the common enemy that brought them together! But with so few clues onscreen, that's only a guess. And the one big clue they DID give us, I can't make sense of: Why did Sansa send Brienne away? To protect Arya from Brienne? To protect Brienne from Arya? To protect herself from Brienne? To prevent Brienne from protecting Arya? Because Brienne just can't keep a secret and could have tipped off LF to their plan? Nothing REALLY explains it, whether you think Sansa was playing LF or was buying his BS.

She sent Brienne away so that Littlefinger couldn't request trial by combat.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I think Sansa will remarry to further the Stark line. She will be Lady Of Winterfell and Warden Of The North, IMO. Her children will take the Stark name, which is why I don't think she'd marry a legitimized Gendry, whose purpose would be to further the Baratheon line. 

[Isazouzi]

7 hours ago, MrsR said:

Sansa sent Brienne away because she had to stay in Winterfell. Someone had to go to KL, but Sansa was paranoid about what was going on, couldn't risk going away for  a month and come home to find out things had changed in her absence. Aray was giving her mixed signals and LF was pumping up the paranoia.

I don't understand why Brienne had to go to KL. Jon wasn't in Winterfell when Sansa received the message, but surely she knew he would go to the meeting to represent the North and Winterfell, since he was with Dany. Brienne didn't need to be there.

5 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

 But they made such a point of having LF remind Sansa how Brienne was honour-bound to protect BOTH Stark sisters (and he obviously had an agenda in saying this), that it seemed Sansa's choice to send Brienne away HAD to be a response of some sort to LF's words. I wish it had been clearer exactly what the purpose of that response was, but, as others have pointed out, there are many possibilities. I guess it's up to each of us to decide what we want to believe, because I doubt the show is ever going to close this loop. (Personally, I'm leaning towards, there was no good reason, the writers just wanted Brienne down south for the big meeting and hoped "obscure motives" would be mistaken for "brilliant plan.")

My take was that LF wanted Brienne and Arya to fight to the death. It would have taken care of at least one of his problems if either of them had died.

3 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

She sent Brienne away so that Littlefinger couldn't request trial by combat.

That's possible only if she had already planned everything in her head at that point.

[CatWarmer]

One quick thought - after reviewing the episode 5 scene from Old Town and rewatching the season finale, I think the interwebs are unfairly accusing Sam of stealing Gilly's "discovery" about the legitimacy of Jon Snow's birth. He tells Bran "I transcribed the Grand Maester's diary". It's become obvious (at least to me) that he did finish transcribing that diary back in Old Town and then turned it over to Gilly so she could practice her reading and maybe learn some history. So when she asked about the annulment and read the passage out loud, Sam had already seen it before giving her the diary. And we know that Sam remembers most everything he's ever read!

That also explains why (1) he wasn't really paying much attention to what she was saying and (2) he gave the diary to baby Sam since it was no longer a problem if it was damaged.  And Sam is so humble  - he wouldn't take credit for someone else's findings.  When Bran said his name, he replied "I didn't think you'd remember me."  Then of course Bran says "I remember everything" and Sam is o...kay....if you say so....

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, Isazouzi said:

I don't understand why Brienne had to go to KL. Jon wasn't in Winterfell when Sansa received the message, but surely she knew he would go to the meeting to represent the North and Winterfell, since he was with Dany. Brienne didn't need to be there.

Yeah, Brienne was just an extra member of Jon's entourage. If she was to represent interests other than Jon's she could have reacted to learning he'd bent the knee without telling Sansa. But she only showed interest where Jaime was concerned, with no sign that Sansa's interests meant anything different than Jon's interests. Her presence was just an excuse for a Jaime/Brienne reunion and to a lesser extent, Tyrion/Pod. Sansa didn't actually need to send anyone. (It annoys me that we don't even know who sent Sansa the message about the parley, just "oh, an invitation to King's Landing". I could buy her responding to a letter from Tyrion, who she somewhat trusts, but we don't even get a word about who it was from, and I have to just infer that possibility because the whole thing was his genius idea.) 

[NeenerNeener]

4 hours ago, ImpinAintEasy said:

I think Sansa will remarry to further the Stark line. She will be Lady Of Winterfell and Warden Of The North, IMO. Her children will take the Stark name, which is why I don't think she'd marry a legitimized Gendry, whose purpose would be to further the Baratheon line. 

Yep, my take on it too. If not Bronn, then maybe Pod would be willing to let his children be Starks instead of Paynes. It's too late in the story to introduce somebody new from a minor house. Of course, I thought that about Sookie's future husband in True Blood too, and they gave us a shot of some random brown-haired guy at Thanksgiving dinner in the very last scene, so what do I know?

[paigow]

[Flash Forward 5 years]

[Interior: Metal Foundry]

Arya: [throws a lumpy ingot on to a work bench] Gendry! Take a look at this...

Gendry: [examines ingot] Never seen this before...

Arya: Some trader from Yunkai brought this...they call it Vibranium...maybe you can make a shield or something...

Gendry: I love you...

[NeenerNeener]

I suppose Sansa could always adopt some random Karstark cousin if there are any left after two major wars.

Edited August 30, 2017 by NeenerNeener

[wayne67]

Viserion the Wight Dragon reminded me of Azula from Avatar with its blue fire, I'm guessing he was upgraded through death magic so that the fire is hotter than normal, so that it's 3000 degrees as opposed to the reddish flames that are only 900 degrees celsius. 

I liked that they reminded us all that "dragons aren't slaves" the same thing Dany told that slaver back before she had him roasted. Hopefully that's foreshadowing that the Night King will be burned by super blue fire once Viserion sees his mummy again. 

As soon as Sansa said treason I finished the sentence with Baelish before she had even uttered the word. I'm guessing that most of the Sansa/Arya arguments were real up until Sansa sought Littlefingers advice in this episode. Arya wanting to be Lady of Winterfell was ridiculous motivation.

I really wonder how Theon plans on rescuing Yara from Euron. A secret night time raid on the Iron Islands ? Chasing his fleet to wherever it's going ? 

Varys was disappointing this season. He didn't do much except whine that Dany burned a couple of nobles alive, apparently unconcerned with the thousands of people she burned prior to that. 

I did like Sansa's description of the Lords of the North as weathervanes, shifting to whichever way the wind was blowing. Apparently the rest of the North isn't that concerned with oaths as the Starks are.

I have no idea how the Unsullied managed to get to Kings Landing. Did they just march all the way there ? Did the Dothraki resupply them ? 

Oh well, I guess we'll find out what happens in a year or three. 

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, Isazouzi said:

That's possible only if she had already planned everything in her head at that point.

I think it is possible that she'd already planned everything. When she found out Littlefinger had given Bran the knife, she not only questioned Littlefingers' motives, but let her siblings in on the fact that they couldn't trust him.   I think she's been playing a long con - using him for her needs, pretending to take his counsel, and waiting for the perfect time to take revenge.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Mabinogia]

10 hours ago, justawatcher said:

Arya and Yara. That's your pairing. Two unconventional women sailing off for pirate mayhem and adventure.

I would watch the hell out of that sequel!

[TobinAlbers]

11 hours ago, ImpinAintEasy said:

I think Sansa will remarry to further the Stark line. She will be Lady Of Winterfell and Warden Of The North, IMO. Her children will take the Stark name, which is why I don't think she'd marry a legitimized Gendry, whose purpose would be to further the Baratheon line. 

Someone else mentioned that if Sansa does marry lower than her that her children could have the option of taking the Stark name.  Her making sure she's married to make sure the kid is legit and not a bastard I think is key.

In the case of Gendry he can't even take Waters as his last name as he's unacknowledged and his mother was lowborn so if they decided to go the Sansa/Gendry route, him not becoming a legitimized could actually work in her favor and allow the children to continue the Stark line.  Although could Gendry be allowed to take a surname (either by King Jon or Queen Dany) and create a bastard line of Baratheons (like the Blackfyre's did) and have a reverse Baratheon sigil of a stag and he adds a hammer?  If he plays a key role in the Great War I can see him being rewarded similar to how Bronn and Davos were elevated to the point he could make someone a good marriage match.

Going back to an earlier post, in the case of Sansa/Gendry vs Arya/Gendry, Sansa being the more conventional beauty didn't factor into my leaning more the Sansa/Gendry route than Arya/Gendry.  Arya and Gendry would be cute as button and she did meet him first and bonded with him first and I can see them being a good match and having great adventures except for the fact that Arya has stated she's not the marrying kind of girl and running a household is the last thing she wants to do. Also while there were inklings of a crush there, I felt more bro/sis chem between them. Having said that she and Gendry could easily set up an unconventional for its time marriage and household. 

Sansa/Gendry for me would be an ironic twist for Sansa in that he is the last type of guy she or the audience expected to see her with at the start of the show and while he's a gruff blacksmith, he's also a funny, kind loyal guy that I think could win her over in spite of herself.  Admittedly it falls into all the cliched tropes (opposites attract)that GRRM tries to subvert and I'm hoping for a somewhat happy ending for Sansa including marriage to someone she loves after all the crap she's been through.

The way the final scene with Sansa and Arya was shot had a lot of finality and happy ending resolution of the Stark girls finding common ground as they enjoy having Winterfell back. A chapter was definitely closing in regards to their relationship. We still have another season so either that peace is going to be blown to hell in S7 or Arya vs. Sansa's personal story is pretty much done with them wrapping up other lose threads in their stories in S7 (Arya and her list; Sansa vs. Cersei) playing against the backdrop of the Great War.  Sansa and Bran are both Starks without living direwolves; Bran effectively died at that cave and is now the three eyed raven so it makes sense that Summer is gone as well but in the case of Sansa I've always wondered with the death of Lady if she was basically a dead Stark walking.  With all the talk of how being Lady of Winterfell is the last thing that Arya would want, it makes sense that like Jon, she'll have that title thrust upon her with Sansa tragically biting it in S7. Hope I'm wrong!

Edited August 30, 2017 by TobinAlbers
Job changed to Jon

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Arya and Yara. That's your pairing. Two unconventional women sailing off for pirate mayhem and adventure.

Yeah, I don't see this paring at all. I don't get the impression that Arya is into women. She's a tomboy, and she's not trying to be a lady, but I don't think she's attracted to women. I wouldn't mind at all if Arya found a Thormund type guy to roam about with and live happily ever after. 

Speaking of not trying to be a lady, that's when I really knew my prediction that Sansa was going to flip the script on LF was correct, when she drew that false conclusion in front of LF that Arya's motive for wanting to see her dead was so that she could become Lady of Winterfeld. She knew better that than that. Um no LF, that's what you get for not truly knowing your prey, if his ass had truly known Arya, he would have known that in no way would Arya EVER act on the motive of wanting to become the lady of anything. If anything, her motive would have been to protect it all for Jon, because she felt closer to him, but it wouldn't be so she could take power for herself. Dummy, LF, he was way out of his league in the North.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[enoughcats]

"You make me a better person"  has not been said at all.  But if it were said,  that would be a reason for marriage between two GOT characters.  Right now,  Cersei might say that to Pycelle.  

Jamie should, but won't say it to Brienne.

Jon and Danys don't have anyone to say that to.   (It's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way- a country song from years ago, but for it's being corny, it could be Danys' theme.) 

I looked for and didn't find any finesses in personal relationships in this episode, only some really interesting renewed relationships.  Especially the Bronn Tyrian, after exchanging insults "Good to see you"  "You too"  exchange that to me indicated that both appreciated their rolls in the big game that they both knew it to be. 

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

 

Speaking of not trying to be a lady, that's when I really knew my prediction that Sansa was going to flip the script on LF was correct, when she drew that false conclusion in front of LF that Arya's motive for wanting to see her dead was so that she could become Lady of Winterfeld. She knew better that than that. Um no LF, that's what you get for not truly knowing your prey, if his ass had truly known Arya, he would have known that in no way would Arya EVER act on the motive of wanting to become the lady of anything. If anything, her motive would have been to protect it all for Jon, because she felt closer to him, but it wouldn't be so she could take power for herself. Dummy, LF, he was way out of his league in the North.

I suspect Littlefinger couldn't envision a person who didn't want power and standing. Those are the two things he wanted most in life. They were valued by everyone around him. The idea that someone might not want to climb up the ladder seemed impossible to him. 

[VCRTracking]

(Crap I thought I was posting in the "Book Talk thread"! Sorry!

Edited August 30, 2017 by VCRTracking

[paigow]

4 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I would watch the hell out of that sequel!

But every week would be different because Arya will always be somebody else....

[Interior: Volantis Brothel] 

Yara: I like that one...

Arya: [STAB!!!] Anything for you.....

[HunterHunted]

On 8/29/2017 at 9:19 AM, Keepitmoving said:

Well since we see that the rebellion was based on a lie and they were actually in love, is it possible that he had nothing to do with kidnapping her?

There was never a kidnapping. Lyanna, who was a lot like Arya, fell for Rhaegar and ran off with him. Lyanna's father and brother knew Rhaegar was interested in Lyanna and assumed she'd been kidnapped. People forget that prior to all of the war of the 5 Kings, noble women were not entitled to make their own marriage decisions except for maybe in Dorne. Lyanna was promised to Robert. For whatever reason he thought that they were mutually in love. That wasn't true. Ned has a little tell in the first episode because he has this sheepish look on his face when Robert goes to visit Lyanna's crypt.

George has said that he let D&D adapt A Song of Ice and Fire because they correctly guessed Jon's parentage. I doubt Sean Bean's script had any explicit details about Jon's parents, but I'm fairly sure there was a note for him to act embarrassed.

On 8/29/2017 at 8:52 AM, Mabinogia said:

My first thought watching that scene was that Cercei was lying. That Euron did leave and she is trying to pacify Jaime. But I do like the third option even better. That she thinks Euron is coming back but Euron, not being a total moron (though close), truly did say fuck this shit, I'm staying on my safe little island until you are all dead. Mainly because I want to see Cercei suffer the loss of every ally she has. I want her to be totally and completely alone before someone comes and kills the bitch. I don't care who at this point. They can all take turns for all I care. But I want her to first realize she has driven away anyone who ever cared for her or even remotely liked or hell, even tolerated her. I want her to be alone with her crown and her throne, ruler of nothing and no one (not because it is all destroyed but because the seat of power was relocated to the north or to Dragonstone and no one gives a fuck about the iron throne or Kings Landing)...and then dead.

I think Euron went to Essos. I think he'll hire the Golden Company and bring them back to Kings Landing, but I do believe that he'll retreat to Pyke with the Ironborn. I think they'll build more ships. I don't think he plans on using a single Ironborn or ship to help Cersei fight the army of the dead if Jon and Dany lose. If the seas continue to freeze and the dead can walk to the Iron Islands, I think Euron and the Ironborn are going to leave Westeros to raid and conquer some other part of the world. Euron intimated that he was going to marry and double cross Dany when an alliance with her was still on the table. There is no reason to think he wasn't planning on doing the same to Cersei, especially since he knows that Cersei will never give him an heir because she's addicted to fucking her family.

[JustaPerson]

1 hour ago, HunterHunted said:

I doubt Sean Bean's script had any explicit details about Jon's parents, but I'm fairly sure there was a note for him to act embarrassed.

Maybe Sean Bean was a long time believer in the theory and incorporated it into his performance! 

Edited August 30, 2017 by JustaPerson

[Haiti D]

The finale was OK.

I would have preferred a more direct approach to Littlefinger's trial.   He should have been held captive by Arya soon after her return.  He would have petitioned Sansa for his release; not realizing that Sansa had okayed Arya's act.  The two sisters would have given Baelish a few days to prepare a defense; and maybe hold a sham trial ending with his execution.  This would have given the audience the opportunity to see Baelish use his verbal skills to attempt an exoneration.  In the end, he still would have been executed; but I feel we were deprived of scenes of potential high drama.

 

I also think the destruction of the Wall should have been a more deliberative process; perhaps even a cliffhanger.  The toppling of the Wall should have opened the next season.    

The rest of the episode was pretty good; except the Theon punch to the non-balls thing--- so dumb.

[SoothingDave]

15 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

She sent Brienne away so that Littlefinger couldn't request trial by combat.

 

Who would fight for Littlefinger?  You think Brienne would?  Who is oath-bound to protect both Stark girls?

 

7 hours ago, wayne67 said:

I really wonder how Theon plans on rescuing Yara from Euron. A secret night time raid on the Iron Islands ? Chasing his fleet to wherever it's going ? 
 

Euron gave Yara to Cersei.  I assume she's in the dungeons in King's Landing.  

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

But every week would be different because Arya will always be somebody else....

[Interior: Volantis Brothel] 

Yara: I like that one...

Arya: [STAB!!!] Anything for you.....

LOL - it's Quantum Leap and Dexter in the GoT universe.

[Calamity Jane]

49 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Another favorite moment is the look exchanged between Tyrion and Jaime when Euron is being an ass and Tyrion's like "Is this idiot for real?" and Jaime's like "Yep."

I think my very favorite moment was when Cersei realized that her opponent was a complete equal capable of standing up to her.  She has always been either subordinate, to Tywin and Robert, or superior to everyone. (Iron Bank guy was hard to buffalo, but socially she was clearly superior to him.)  She was ready to spit nails at Daenerys's cool "My apologies."  

[GraceK]

2 minutes ago, Calamity Jane said:

I think my very favorite moment was when Cersei realized that her opponent was a complete equal capable of standing up to her.  She has always been either subordinate, to Tywin and Robert, or superior to everyone. (Iron Bank guy was hard to buffalo, but socially she was clearly superior to him.)  She was ready to spit nails at Daenerys's cool "My apologies."  

I also love how Dany completely upstaged Cerseis late entrance by riding in on a Dragon :) that was satisfying . 

[Lady S.]

5 hours ago, SoothingDave said:

Euron gave Yara to Cersei.  I assume she's in the dungeons in King's Landing.  

No, he gave her the Dornish gifts and led Yara out with his horse. Cersei has no reason to care about her so I assume she's being held back on Pyke.

14 hours ago, doram said:

Whoever Sansa marries, she'd have to take his name. This isn't 21st century. Children don't take their mother's names. Unless Bran decides to his duty, even in a catatonic state, the Stark name has effectively ended. 

Um, House Mormont continued without any male Mormonts. And this isn't a modern concept. Husbands don't really take their wives names now but that did sometimes happen historically in noble families where the wife was higher-born. (Or in the case of British double-barrelled, tripled-barrelled or even quadruple-barrelled names, the male and female names all get smooshed together to consolidate the family lines.) It's crazy enough to think all these Westeros houses survived for thousands of years, let alone in an unbroken male line. They've never had a ruling QitN before but having a guy inherit from his maternal grandfather or uncle, bypassing his mother but keeping the name alive would not require a great leap in feminism. (For a fantasy example, Eomer became King of Rohan as Theoden's "sister-son" and the family was all one house, with the LotR appendix showing that was not the first time the crown passed that way in the House of Eorl. For a real-world example, the direct male line of the Romanovs came to an end long before the Russian Revolution.) If the family name were in danger of dying out, Jon could have legitimized himself and immediately taken the name on becoming KitN.

6 hours ago, JustaPerson said:

Maybe Sean Bean was a long time believer in the theory and incorporated it into his performance! 

More likely they just told him since his character would have known. Alfie Allen once bragged about Evil Santa confirming Jon Snow's parentage to him and there's no reason he needed to know that to play Theon.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Lady S.

[JustaPerson]

Yea i remember reading somewhere that GRRM told Sean Bean about Jon's parentage to help inform his performance, but I couldn't remember where and couldn't find an article so i thought maybe I imagined it!

15 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

More likely they just told him since his character would have known. Alfie Allen once bragged about Evil Santa confirming Jon Snow's parentage to him and there's no reason he needed to know that to play Theon.

[riley702]

On 8/29/2017 at 10:54 PM, justawatcher said:

Arya and Yara. That's your pairing. Two unconventional women sailing off for pirate mayhem and adventure.

 

15 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I would watch the hell out of that sequel!

I would, too!

13 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

I really knew my prediction that Sansa was going to flip the script on LF was correct, when she drew that false conclusion in front of LF that Arya's motive for wanting to see her dead was so that she could become Lady of Winterfell. She knew better that than that. Um, no, LF, that's what you get for not truly knowing your prey; if his ass had truly known Arya, he would have known that in no way would Arya EVER act on the motive of wanting to become the lady of anything. 

Or he assumed because Sansa valued being Lady of Winterfell, she feared losing it to Arya. He didn't have to believe it himself - as long as he thought Sansa believed it, it was something he could use. But she was conning him the whole time. Oopsie.

3 hours ago, Lady S. said:

More likely they just told him since his character would have known. Alfie Allen once bragged about Evil Santa confirming Jon Snow's parentage to him and there's no reason he needed to know that to play Theon.

Who the hell is Evil Santa? One of the producers? I don't believe I've ever heard that term.

[Lady S.]

Just now, riley702 said:

Who the hell is Evil Santa? One of the producers? I don't believe I've ever heard that term.

Sorry, yes, he's one of the producers. 

[voiceover]

Sorry if I'm repeating this, but I just stumbled across the story about how a scene between Bran & Sansa was cut from the finale.  It would certainly have tipped their hand before LF's accusation/execution sequence.

In brief: Sansa asks Bran for help, post-Arya argument.

[riley702]

That's disappointing - so Sansa was stupid enough to listen to Littlefinger and plan on killing her own sister. That's why she sent Brienne away - to keep her from interfering with her plans to kill Arya. It makes her comment poignant, though: "I'm a slow learner, it's true; but I learn." Now I wonder if she was cruel enough to not let Arya know before the summons.

Edited August 31, 2017 by riley702

[Lady S.]

9 minutes ago, riley702 said:

That's disappointing - so Sansa was stupid enough to listen to Littlefinger and plan on killing her own sister. That's why she sent Brienne away - to keep her from interfering with her plans to kill Arya. It makes her comment poignant, though: "I'm a slow learner, it's true; but I learn." Now I wonder if she was cruel enough to not let Arya know before the summons.

Arya pretty obviously knew why she was in that hall. I take Isaac's "So basically, as far as I know" to mean the scene really was just Sansa knocking on his door and saying she needed his help, and the rest of it is just his interpretation of what the story must have been. I wouldn't really put too weight on Isaac's, Maisie's, or Sophie's personal interpretations.

[Daisy]

On 8/30/2017 at 4:11 AM, CatWarmer said:

One quick thought - after reviewing the episode 5 scene from Old Town and rewatching the season finale, I think the interwebs are unfairly accusing Sam of stealing Gilly's "discovery" about the legitimacy of Jon Snow's birth. He tells Bran "I transcribed the Grand Maester's diary". It's become obvious (at least to me) that he did finish transcribing that diary back in Old Town and then turned it over to Gilly so she could practice her reading and maybe learn some history. So when she asked about the annulment and read the passage out loud, Sam had already seen it before giving her the diary. And we know that Sam remembers most everything he's ever read!

That also explains why (1) he wasn't really paying much attention to what she was saying and (2) he gave the diary to baby Sam since it was no longer a problem if it was damaged.  And Sam is so humble  - he wouldn't take credit for someone else's findings.  When Bran said his name, he replied "I didn't think you'd remember me."  Then of course Bran says "I remember everything" and Sam is o...kay....if you say so....

that's how I saw it. that whole stacks of books were to be transcribed - so he's not lying. I think it's because Gilly said it and Sam's first reaction was "who gives a eff, because ALL THESE DAMN MAESTERS....." but when I heard him say "I transcribed..." well yah. he did . Plus at the time he was mad at the Maesters. I do wonder then if he has Valyrian steel knowledge in that head of his.

[paigow]

16 hours ago, SoothingDave said:

Euron gave Yara to Cersei.  I assume she's in the dungeons in King's Landing.  

Euron brought Yara and Ellaria to Kings Landing...he left with Yara....

[SoothingDave]

Thanks, I missed that.

[Mabinogia]

Sadly I think Yara would have been better off with Cercei. Cercei has no real vendetta against her, like she does with Ellaria, so I think she'd just stick her in a cell and forget about her. I loathe to think of what Euron is doing to poor Yara. Come on Theon! She needs you!!!!

[Keepitmoving]

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Or he assumed because Sansa valued being Lady of Winterfell, she feared losing it to Arya. He didn't have to believe it himself - as long as he thought Sansa believed it, it was something he could use. But she was conning him the whole time. Oopsie.

That's why one shouldn't assume. Again, it's still the same point I was making, he didn't know his prey which includes every one in the Stark family and the North itself. He was out of his league. Yeah he didn't have to believe it but he also didn't know what Sansa knew about her sister deep down. By the time they had the scene I was referring to she probably had already spoken to Bran. Fact of the matter is, she knew her sister was no lady and therefore that would not be Arya's motive, to become the lady of Winterfeld. She knew, everyone who knows of Arya knew, but he did not. Because like someone posted above, a character like LF cannot fathom the idea that someone would be operating in the world not lusting for power.

He didn't factor in what Sansa might have known about her own sister and he didn't factor in that she was actually capable of learning his lessons. Which means he didn't know Sansa.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

he didn't factor in that she was actually capable of learning his lessons. Which means he didn't know Sansa.

He really underestimated Sansa. Sure, it took her a while, sure her paranoia got the worst of her, but she listened to him and she finally applied what he was saying and realized where the true enemy was. He totally overplayed his hand because he thought she was still that little girl she once was.

I actually prefer thinking that it took her a while, that she did worry about Arya at first. It makes more sense. It doesn't make sense that two sisters who were never really close and have some serious bad blood between them (the whole Joffrey killing the friend thing) would instantly buddy up and take down LF the master manipulator. I think seeing each other brought back all their childhood issues. They had to get past that and wade through LF's BS before they could come together in the single most satisfying way ever!

I don't care that LF's death was fast. What I care about is that he knew before he died that his little puppet had turned on him. That all his carefully laid plans had backfired and that it was his precious Sansa who ordered him to die.

[Chinspinner]

56 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

He really underestimated Sansa. Sure, it took her a while, sure her paranoia got the worst of her, but she listened to him and she finally applied what he was saying and realized where the true enemy was. He totally overplayed his hand because he thought she was still that little girl she once was.

I actually prefer thinking that it took her a while, that she did worry about Arya at first. It makes more sense. It doesn't make sense that two sisters who were never really close and have some serious bad blood between them (the whole Joffrey killing the friend thing) would instantly buddy up and take down LF the master manipulator. I think seeing each other brought back all their childhood issues. They had to get past that and wade through LF's BS before they could come together in the single most satisfying way ever!

I don't care that LF's death was fast. What I care about is that he knew before he died that his little puppet had turned on him. That all his carefully laid plans had backfired and that it was his precious Sansa who ordered him to die.

Plus, why would Sansa and Aria have kept up the pretence in all those scenes behind closed doors? If they had been manipulating Baelish from the start, then the show-runners were also manipulating the audience. The only way this sub-plot works is if Sansa believed Baelish, Arya led her by the nose to the truth of it and Sansa woke up to Baelish' plot (confirmed by Bran off-screen) at some point between her first scene with Baelish of this episode and the scene in which she had him killed. To be honest, I felt this entire sub-plot was poorly written, rushed and slightly confused. It had the feel of a standard bait-and-switch and series of tropes used in lesser dramas than GOT, and it relied entirely on deceiving the audience in a rather cheap manner.    

Edited August 31, 2017 by Chinspinner

[Mabinogia]

I disagree that Arya led Sansa anywhere. Arya was just as into the death feud as far as I could see. She truly believed Sansa wanted to take over from Jon. I've seen no evidence at all that she was aware of all that was happening. It was LF himself that led Sansa to the truth. He overplayed his hand, made one comment too many and Sansa finally decided to use Google Bran to see what was really going on.

I actually thought the whole thing worked quite well. Of course I don't put either girl on a pedestal so I find it perfectly acceptable that a master manipulator would know how to push just the right buttons on both of them but that he would also push on button too many out of pure hubris.

[Keepitmoving]

On 8/30/2017 at 1:53 AM, ImpinAintEasy said:

I think Sansa will remarry to further the Stark line. She will be Lady Of Winterfell and Warden Of The North, IMO. Her children will take the Stark name, which is why I don't think she'd marry a legitimized Gendry, whose purpose would be to further the Baratheon line. 

But can she give them the Stark name if she's not married? And even if she is married, they won't carry that name. They'll just carry some of blood line like Jon does.  Don't they have to be named "Snow" if they are conceived outside of marriage and born in the North? So she might as well find someone decent to marry before having a kid so they don't have to be called bastard for the rest of their lives as if they count less.

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I disagree that Arya led Sansa anywhere. Arya was just as into the death feud as far as I could see. She truly believed Sansa wanted to take over from Jon. I've seen no evidence at all that she was aware of all that was happening. It was LF himself that led Sansa to the truth. He overplayed his hand, made one comment too many and Sansa finally decided to use Google Bran to see what was really going on.

I guess we all have our perception of that scene, but I thought by the time Arya got to that hall she knew exactly what was going down. It was the way she looked at LF and reminded him that her sister had asked him a question. Now she's nuts, LOL, she's a killer, she couldn't wait to slit his throat. I love that girl. She's cool, calm, so it could be that nothing shakes her anymore, because she did have this attitude of just get on with it then. And I could actually buy her not shaking one bit as she takes her last breath. But I just felt that her reaction after Sansa let LF know that he was the one on trial seemed like at some point she and Sansa got on the same page to play it all out.Not to mention their last scene together, it just had a vibe of they knew what they were going to do and that Arya was in on it. Their last convo. about you did it, but you passed the sentence and I was just the executioner just did not sound to me like any of the Stark children were out of the  loop on the plan to set LF up and end him.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Lady S.]

54 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

But can she give them the Stark name if she's not married? And even if she is married, they won't carry that name. 

Yes, they will.

It's open to interpretation but I really think the cut Sansa/Bran scene must have been at the end of last week's ep, before Sansa's first scene in this one. There's no reason for her to ask Littlefinger's advice as if he had some special insight into Arya, no reason to discount their stated conflict over Jon and s1 baggage and act as if there's a bigger mystery, no reason to assume Arya came there just to murder her instead of to see Jon, no reason to bring up Sansa's marriages to Stark enemies when Arya never mentioned them, etc. Yes, Sophie didn't telegraph that she was playing him in that scene, but she didn't play the last line about Arya becoming Lady of Winterfell as some a-ha moment either, it came off as sincerely as all the rest, even though Sansa shouldn't have believed for a moment that Arya was motivated by personal ambition. Littlefinger is the one who schooled Sansa about being a better liar, after all. 

[LanceM]

22 hours ago, GraceK said:

I also love how Dany completely upstaged Cerseis late entrance by riding in on a Dragon :) that was satisfying . 

The one thing that would have made that scene even better was if Missandei stood up and announced all her titles as she arrived just to annoy Cersei some more.

Edited August 31, 2017 by LanceM

[Calamity Jane]

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

I guess we all have our perception of that scene, but I thought by the time Arya got to that hall she knew exactly what was going down. 

Agree completely, this is how I saw it.  After we get Baelish's jaw drop, we see Arya has turned her head to him and is smiling that Arya smile, which sealed it for me.  

[Lady S.]

Here's another Isaac interview, which makes it clear the scene was just Sansa asking Bran for help and he doesn't know much beyond that.

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"There was a scene that we ended up getting rid of, I’m not sure why, where Sansa came to Bran’s chambers and said 'I need your help,'" Hempstead-Wright told IGN. "The way I understand it, Bran didn't know what was going on."
According to the actor, Bran stayed out of the conflict between the two Stark girls until Sansa approached him about the situation. "It was a battle between Sansa and Arya really, and it wasn't any of Bran's business until Sansa thought 'why don't I fact check this with the best fact checker in the universe' and Bran was like 'Littlefinger did this and this and this,'" he explained.
While Hempstead-Wright isn't entirely sure where the scene would have fit within Season 7, he thinks it would have appeared somewhere in the finale. "It was going to be in the finale—I don’t know actually. I have no idea when that scene was. I think it would have been the last episode," he said.

 

1 hour ago, Calamity Jane said:

Agree completely, this is how I saw it.  After we get Baelish's jaw drop, we see Arya has turned her head to him and is smiling that Arya smile, which sealed it for me.  

The knife is the key, people. Arya gave it to Sansa in their last scene in 7.06. Why would Sansa give it back to Arya or leave it in Arya's room if she was that afraid Arya would murder her? And Arya couldn't have known Littlefinger lied about the knife to their mother unless Bran told her. The exact order of events between the Starklings is left up to the audience but the last scene is clear that everyone except Littlefinger was on the same page. (The whole thing is meant to mirror his betrayal of Ned in the throne room, where all the baddies were secretly working together from Baelish to Slynt to Cersei.)

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

I guess we all have our perception of that scene, but I thought by the time Arya got to that hall she knew exactly what was going down.

Oh, I agree that by the time of the "trial" Sansa and Arya were on the same page. Arya knew she was walking in as executioner and not as defendant. Lead by the nose made me think you meant that Sansa was blind until all knowing Arya told her LF was the bad guy. That I don't believe. I think Sansa is the one who went to Arya and explained what was going on after LF made the mistake of making Sansa second guess Arya's motives. 

Here's how I think it all went down. (I could be totally wrong, this is just what I gathered from what we were shown). Arya comes back and the girls don't exactly hit it off. Sansa is listening to LF tell her Arya is out to get her while Arya thinks Sansa is betraying Jon and she does not like betrayal. Sansa sends Brienne away to avoid any conflict of interest if things go down. Sansa is considering her options. I don't think she'd kill Arya but I think she might have been considering getting rid of her somehow, locked up, sent away, something. But LF can't leave well enough alone. He tells Sansa to think of why Arya would want her dead. Sansa, of course, goes with revenge, which is perfectly logical. If Arya did kill Sansa it would have been because she felt Sansa betrayed Jon. LF, however, seems to go with the whole taking Sansa's spot as Lady of Winterfell. At first Sansa goes with it but then she's all "the fuck? This is Arya the little terror we're talking about". I think she goes to Bran and asks him to clarify what Arya is going to do. When he doesn't see Sansa's mutilated corpse in the future she goes to Arya and explains that it is not her that is trying to undermine Jon, it's Littlefinger. And if they don't deal with him, he will find a way to destroy Jon. This is enough for Arya to spring into action. They decide on the plan we saw played out because they know they need to blindside LF. If they don't, he could weasel his way out of it. I think Sansa did send Brienne away, just in case she had to "deal" with Arya. And Arya really threatened Sansa (it was not a performance in case LF was watching) so that she could see that Sansa was truthful in not wanting to hurt Jon. They were both being played by a professional manipulator, but in the end the one who knew him best was able to see through his machinations and turned to her sister for help in taking him out. It was perfect to me. 

[CletusMusashi]

As much as I love the idea of Euron actually being a fucking pirate, and stealing all of Cersei's gold, I think he's legit. It's Theon that has me convinced. I mean, yeah, great, he gets a final redemption arc, yadda yadda yadda. But he's actually gettting story arc time, this late in the game, to rescue Yara?  And this is coming from someone who loves Yara. But let's be serious here. Now that Danaerys is in the west, the plot can take or leave Yara. Yara even still being alive, and tied to the nautical equivalent of railroad tracks, is a discussion in and of itself. But if Urine's got her, he's presumably got her on his ship. I suppose there might be a dungeon at Castle Pyke that is as ludicrously underguarded as Dragonstone, and all Theon really has to do is sail there, walk up to the door, and open it. But more likely Yara is shackled up on the flagship and being used as a sexual reward for whoever makes the best dwarf joke or whatever. So this means that Theon will be following Euron. And, for that adventure to be even remotely important, at a point this late in a story written by a man who seriously does not have any problem with likeable characters dying.... Conservation of Narrative dictates that Theon will in some way be cock-blocking Euron from bringing in reinforcements.

Edited September 1, 2017 by CletusMusashi

[paigow]

It was all very dramatic for the Hound to haul that crate up 200 steps from the dragon pit basement but WTF????

The crate was on a wagon pulled by a donkey / mule that stopped outside the pit on the road that EVERYBODY walked in on...

So the Hound goes DOWNSTAIRS [to the underground loading dock??] instead of walking out the way he came in...almost gets a hernia carrying it UP those stairs. When he drops it, the zombie does not react; however, it was shown to scream when the crate is merely tapped.

Agreed that leading a donkey / mule wagon into the dragon pit is not that compelling, but making Team Dragon exponentially stupid is also undesirable....

[paigow]

 Qyburn of the future...

[Keepitmoving]

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Lead by the nose made me think you meant that Sansa was blind until all knowing Arya told her LF was the bad guy. That I don't believe. 

I never said this in any of my posts, that was someone else I guess.  I would not have posted anything about Arya being all knowing compared to Sansa because I don't see Sansa as dumb, never have. I saw her as being way too superficial and not understanding that girl, you need to get some skills to look after your own self and not rely on some prince out there. I never thought of Sansa as in dumb, meaning, she can't learn no matter what you do. I just felt her attitude and outlook on life is what held her back. Even her mother had some grit, and I was just waiting for Sansa to get some and here we are, she is Lady of Winterfell and she earned it even though it should have been hers simply as her birthright IMO. When she asked Arya at the end if she was bothered by her being the Lady, Arya truthfully answers that she would not have made a very good lady. But I thought, not only that, Sansa is in line before Arya for that position, John shouldn't even be in line before any of the other Stark kids for that position because he supposed to be a "bastard."

Edited September 1, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Chinspinner]

4 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I never said this in any of my posts, that was someone else I guess.  I would have posted anything about Arya being all knowing compared to Sansa because I don't see Sansa as dumb, never have. I saw her as being way too superficial and not understanding that girl, you need to get some skills to look after your own self and not rely on some prince out there. I never thought of Sansa as in dumb, meaning, she can't learn no matter what you do. I just felt her attitude and outlook on life is what held her back. Even her mother was had some grit, and I was just waiting for Sansa to get some and here we are, she is Lady of Winterfell and she earned it even though it should have been hers simply as her birthright IMO. When she asked Arya at the end if she was bothered by her being the Lady, Arya truthfully answers that she would not have made a very good lady. But I thought, not only that, Sansa is in line before Arya for that position, John shouldn't even be in line before any of the other Stark kids for that position because he supposed to be a "bastard."

Yeah, I wrote it, and all I meant is the following: Sansa has history and baggage with Baelish, and how ever much her logical mind knows not to trust him, her emotional mind may stand in her way. Therefore, it struck me that it was likely to be with the help of Arya and Bran that she was able accept him for what he is. Furthermore, the scene in the previous episode where Arya hands her the knife (later submitted as evidence against Baelish) is strongly indicative that this is how events unfolded. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Chinspinner