S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[madam magpie]

29 minutes ago, rmontro said:

A fair point.  But we can say that incest at least works differently on that world, yes?  It apparently has benefits for Targaryeans that do not exist in the real world.

Dany has always been fairly ruthless though, I don't see that as madness.  Even Ned Stark executed people.  And Viserys had it coming.

Someone also suggested Joffrey suffered from madness, but I think he was just a gigantic jerk.

 

By the way, does anyone have an idea as to why Littlefinger was plotting to get Arya killed?  Is it just that he saw her as dangerous and wanted her out of the way?  So he could influence Sansa more easily?  And what did he think Jon Snow would do when he came back and found out that Arya had been executed?

It's not really any different from inbreeding royals throughout history, and the benefits model those that once existed in our world. They did it to preserve bloodlines, as a means of isolation and insulation.

I'm holding out hope that it's Dany who will be bothered most by this reveal because she does seem to recognize that many old ways of doing things need to change (e.g., slavery) and she's not isolated or insulated. She does buy into ruling by birthright, though, so who knows. 

For what it's worth, and even though it's kind of icky, I don't actually care about the incest morally; these are consenting adults who had no idea they were related. To me, it's a sad wrench to throw at them. But given the types of people they are, I imagine it will bother them both for a variety of reasons. 

I don't see Dany as mad at all either. She can be ruthless, like you say, but she's always totally in control. She knows what she's doing and does it with a lot of thought and calculation. 

I think Littlefinger wanted to isolate Sansa and make her dependent on him. Her having close family confidants threatened that.

Edited August 30, 2017 by madam magpie

[rmontro]

8 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

It's not really any different from inbreeding royals throughout history, and the benefits model those that once existed in our world. They did it to preserve bloodlines, as a means of isolation and insulation.

Good post, but I was referring to the Targaryens' unique ability to control dragons.  And it also seems to be a possibility at least that Dany needed another Targaryen to be impregnated.  Those aren't real world benefits to incest.

[Blonde Gator]

10 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I'm not completely caught up yet, but there's something I haven't yet seen mentioned.  Cersei very clearly told Tyrion he was responsible for two of her children's deaths, and Joffrey was definitely left out.  Considering Tyrion was tried for Joffrey's death, wouldn't he have immediately realized she now knows who really killed Joffrey?  That's a big reveal and it occurred off camera.  A big miss, in my opinion, although I loved the scene overall.  But how hard would it have been to show Jaime relaying the info to Tyrion?  And a throw away line from Tyrion to Cersei about being cleared of Joffrey's death.

And as much as I loved the scene between Olenna and Jaime, I wish Jaime could have gotten off a last shot of - so you were going to happily sit quietly while my brother died for your crime, and Sansa was being hunted down for same. 

Obviously I can't forgive Olenna for this.  I was happy to find out, in a season three re-watch, that Olenna was against Margaery marrying Joffrey, and thought her son as imbecile for putting the plan in action.  So technically, Olenna was cleaning up Mace's mess, and if that involved innocent victims, well she was saving her granddaughter.  I still think she was a bitch.

Jaime told her Cersei, after he killed Olenna.  I remember, because I kept wondering why he said "Old Nana".  But he said, "If you're Olenna, would you rather have your precious grand daughter marry Joffrey, or the easily manipulated Tommen?"  I think the mere fact that Cersei didn't throw Joffrey's death at Tyrion right off the bat told Tyrion everything he needed to know in that scene.

Olenna was a deadly old girl, although I don't suppose anyone other than Jaime, finally, knew how exactly lethal she was.  She always operated under the surface, even though she had that acid tongue.  I'm sure she cleaned up many of Mace's messes, as you put it, and probably many of Luthor Tyrell's (Mace's father) as well.  She considered them both the be rather useless oafs.  Had she been a Lord instead of marrying one, I'm sure she'd have been the equal of Tywin Lannister, and much better at the Game of Thrones than Cersei ever could dream of being. 

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

If I'm Jon Snow, I stick that jawbone in my pocket....and take it back to Winterfell as souvenir.  Dragons have faded almost into myth at this point, so having an actual jawbone would be beyond cool!

It would be so cool, in fact, that I found it hard to believe there are any recognizable bones left. Everyone in the kingdoms knows that there's an ancient pit in King's Landing where the dragons used to live, and in the hundreds of years it's been lying abandoned, treasure hunters and sightseers haven't descended on it and picked it clean of every dragon-related relic?

[RedheadZombie]

1 minute ago, Blonde Gator said:

Jaime told her Cersei, after he killed Olenna.  I remember, because I kept wondering why he said "Old Nana".  But he said, "If you're Olenna, would you rather have your precious grand daughter marry Joffrey, or the easily manipulated Tommen?"  I think the mere fact that Cersei didn't throw Joffrey's death at Tyrion right off the bat told Tyrion everything he needed to know in that scene.

Olenna was a deadly old girl, although I don't suppose anyone other than Jaime, finally, knew how exactly lethal she was.  She always operated under the surface, even though she had that acid tongue.  I'm sure she cleaned up many of Mace's messes, as you put it, and probably many of Luthor Tyrell's (Mace's father) as well.  She considered them both the be rather useless oafs.  Had she been a Lord instead of marrying one, I'm sure she'd have been the equal of Tywin Lannister, and much better at the Game of Thrones than Cersei ever could dream of being. 

I remember Jaime telling Cersei, but why didn't Tyrion perk up when Cersei only accused him of Myrcella's and Tommen's deaths?  It would seem he knew about Olenna, but I dislike the fact that this revelation occurred off camera.  And I wanted to see Cersei be forced to acknowledge to Tyrion that he did not murder Joffrey.  I felt a little cheated.

I agree about Olenna.  I also think there's no way she wouldn't have outed Littlefinger's role in the whole thing.

[SimoneS]

I loved Olenna. I think that protecting Margaery was foremost in her mind when she conspired to kill Joffrey. She didn't give a thought to the fall out as long as her family was not implicated. Olenna's big mistake was not killing Cersei first. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by SimoneS

[madam magpie]

25 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Good post, but I was referring to the Targaryens' unique ability to control dragons.  And it also seems to be a possibility at least that Dany needed another Targaryen to be impregnated.  Those aren't real world benefits to incest.

Ah, gotcha! I don't think she needs another Targaryen to get pregnant because she was pregnant by Drogo. And wouldn't her baby have presumably been fine if that witch hadn't gotten involved? And Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna with no trouble.

As for the dragons, I do think Drogon's reaction to Jon was both a clue to Jon's parentage and an event that attracted Dany to him, even if she didn't know the backstory. I'm not sure you "need" incest for that, but...it can't hurt?

 

12 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I loved Olenna. I think that protecting Margaery was foremost in her mind when she conspired to kill Joffrey. She didn't give a thought to the fall out as long as her family was not implicated. Olenna's big mistake was not killing Cersei first. 

Amen to that!

Edited August 30, 2017 by madam magpie

[Misplaced]

57 minutes ago, rmontro said:

By the way, does anyone have an idea as to why Littlefinger was plotting to get Arya killed?  Is it just that he saw her as dangerous and wanted her out of the way?  So he could influence Sansa more easily?  And what did he think Jon Snow would do when he came back and found out that Arya had been executed?

Arya is executed because of treason .... Jon returns from his frolic and detour in the South, which the Northern Lords are already unhappy about (bonus round: having bent-the-freakin'-knee to Dany) .... Jon becomes enraged with Sansa for executing Arya ... big fight between the Northern Lords and the Vale (supporting Sansa but loyal to LF, and in the last ep those 'Windvanes' said hey, maybe you should be Queen) ... Jon is un-declared King in the North, Sansa is declared Queen in the North, more or less fully dependent on Littlefinger, in his own tiny mind anyway.  With the North and the Vale, he can ick-ily persuade Sansa to marry him, kill off Robin and plan his next move to take the Iron Throne. 

My opinion, at any rate: he fully intended to take out Jon (his only real rival against Dany, because I'm pretty sure he knows, er, knew, Jon's parentage) and eventually either kill off Sansa to marry Dany for the throne, or be content with being Warden in the North because at least he would have Ned's former seat, and he HATED Ned for marrying Cat.

I thought he was a truly annoying Show!Character and I despised him in the books but I do wish we had a bit more insight into LF's endgame.  Oh well, I'm really pleased I got to see him beg for his life at any rate.  Also that his last word was "I".  So. so. typical....

Edited August 30, 2017 by Misplaced

[DrScottie]

3 hours ago, mac123x said:

When Dany and Jon were chit-chatting about the Dragon Pit (with the tiny dragon jawbone prop) I thought "well, he might not be a tall man, but he's certainly towering over her" then he stepped down onto her level.  I admit to chuckling at that.

If you notice, that first shot of that scene is him physically bending the knee. 

[spaceghostess]

Okay. I felt the need to write a post solely on Jon and Daenerys in this episode, something I hadn't planned to do. After several days processing the finale, however, I've had to accept that it left me with unexpectedly complicated feels that I need to work through here, with you fine people. Be forewarned--this is long.

I posted last week that I shipped these two. And I still do? . . . even after reading through many astute, well-informed posts by those who were squicked and/or concerned by the Boat!sex (both the event and its implications). I can't pinpoint one reason stronger than all others that love and lust between these two doesn't put me off, however. Numbering among the similarly weighted justifications for my hard-core hand waving:

1. As gritty and similar to actual European history as this world is often portrayed, I still regard it as very "other". As such, find myself okay with relations between relatives who are not siblings and don't know they're related to each other. I definitely fall in the camp of being much more creeped out at the fictional prospect of people who were raised as brother and sister (Cersei/Jaime, actually; Sansa/Jon, hypothetically, in some people's minds) doing it as opposed to D&J, who are "less" (I know, only a bit less) related and, in every other respect, are an extremely strong emotional match for one another. Looking at portraits of the Spanish Hapsburgs (and knowing the fate of the last Hapsburg king) is a sobering reminder of how extremely wrong inbreeding can go, but my GoT happy place doesn't countenance that brand of harsh reality.  I know, I know; I'm making excuses for A Bad Thing. But my willingness to do this is also inextricably entwined with . . . 

2. . . . the fact that I regard Jon and Dany as two love-starved heroes who found it with each other, an idea to which it's hard for me to turn a cold shoulder. Yes, she had, um, "love" (memories of her wedding night make it impossible for me to drop those quotes) with Drogo; he had love (under false pretenses) with Ygritte--but those situations were incredibly brief and ended tragically. They were both raised feeling like lonely outsiders and, with the end of this story closing in, I know there's no possibility of other love relationships for either of them. So I couldn't resist rooting for a few moments of happiness for these crazy kids before one (or both) of them ends up dead.

3. I'm a sucker for strong attraction between strong people, even when it's not the most functional situation . . . which is probably why The Lion in Winter is one of my all-time favorite movies. Katherine Hepburn as Eleanor of Aquitaine is decades older than Peter O'Toole as Henry II--and they light the screen on fire, even though they're basically at each other's throats the entire time. Clearly, many people don't see chemistry between Dany and Jon and/or their actors, but I do, even after seeing Kit and Emilia "gag" about it behind the scenes. (I found those clips hysterical, BTW, especially Kit's "Just threw up in my mouth a little"-style aside.)

Having said all that, Boat!sex elicited the complex feels I mentioned above because:

a) It was too abrupt, which is great if it gives one the wiggins, but not great if one isn't wigged out, but rather, very invested in seeing Jon Snow actually disrobe for once in his ever-loving life. Think about it: he's had exactly one other sex scene, in which he was covered in fur for part one and submerged in water for part two.* I wanted to see his armor figuratively AND literally removed--and no, Davos cracking him out of his frozen kit last week doesn't count. This show is so great with certain things, like dragons and murdering, yet so fucktarded when it comes to portraying intimacy. Aside from Cave!Sex (which, despite my asterisk-ing, at least represented a real connection and showed a woman getting some for-serious pleasure) I feel like the last truly intimate romantic scenes were between Renly and Loras (I don't count Robb and Talisa, not because they weren't attractive and romantically lit; I just wasn't feeling it because they were dumb). That's a long dry spell.  I definitely enjoyed the Intense Stare of Love midway through the five seconds of BoatSex, but the very deliberate avoidance of foreplay of any kind makes me wish they'd have allowed someone--anyone--who actually gets love scenes into their writing/directing frat house. Of course, these are moot points if, in fact, the scene was made this way because the creators are intent on beating us over the head with how Bad, Inappropriate, and Doomed this relationship is, which brings me to . . . 

b) . . . it can't end well! I'm not kidding myself; I know it can't. Putting aside the fact that Jon Snow is unlikely to be borrowing Jaime's "Incest Is Best! (Relatively Speaking)" tee-shirt anytime soon, I agree that the truncated presentation of the scene and the fact that it was intercut (and undercut) by wet-blanketing-with-extreme-prejudice via Bran's voiceover (and Tyrion lurking to remind us that this is THE WORST THING EVER) means that we won't see D&J sex in season 8. We'll pick up with them arriving in Winterfell (or getting a pre-emptive raven: "Greetings, Jon! [stop] In case you and Daenerys were thinking about boning, don't. [stop] Why not? [stop] For reasons. [stop] Talk more once you get here! [stop] xox, Sam & Bran") Once Jon finds out who he really is, the Targaryan baggage is really gonna hit the fan. Will Dany be as bothered as Jon will be by the fact that her nephew just put a baby in her (because you know he did)? I think maybe not? But even if she isn't, his probable freaked-out reaction re: this shit sandwich will put the kibosh on their relationship.

c) Even as I ship D & J, I paradoxically find the whole situation incredibly sad and frustrating.  (The setup is truly tragic, as stillshimpy eloquently pointed out.) I'm angry that two people who've been through so much can't find a little goddamn happiness because the writing went here. Jon is my favorite character. I liked him well enough for the first few seasons of the show, but I read all the books between seasons 3 and 4, and they made me fall in love with the guy. I don't think he's a Gary Sue at all (and not even as broody as people always say). To me, he's a flawed hero--the best kind. I also love Dany, so of course I wish more than anything that GRRM hadn't written this blood connection. If I could exchange either one in this relationship for an equal love interest who isn't a blood relative, I'd do it in a second. But I can't, so I could either root for this fleeting moment of joy, or be grossed out by it. I chose the former, but knowing full well that the other fur-lined boot is going to drop SO HARD next season. Bummer.

*WTF was the deal with GRRM, in the book, putting them in a freezing cave with a cold spring? I had to re-read that like, four times because I couldn't believe that he (or his editor) didn't think through the physiological consequences of that little scenario (cue George Costanza). At least the show runners got it right by giving J & Y a hot spring, damn.

Edited August 31, 2017 by spaceghostess
Accidental emoticon

[Misplaced]

7 hours ago, doram said:

How is Dany's execution of the two men who volunteered to die more "mad" than Stannis burning his own daughter to win a battle or than Cersei blowing up the Westeros's version of St Peter's Basillica and all the people in a ten-mile radius of it to target a few enemies?

Well ... it's not.  But neither Cersei nor Stannis have the existing bad press of "Mad King Aerys" to blame for burning their relatives and/or enemies -- just like dear old (crazy) Dad did -- instead of at least reasonably sending D(R)ickon to the Wall while executing Randyl (which was surely the 'right' response from her to that poor ill-named slob being noble).  

Not 'fair' but if Dany is hell-bent on breaking the wheel, she needs to not deliberately repeat the actions her future people will think about when they think about the wheel.  Again, it might not be 'fair', and in point of fact it probably isn't, but if she wants good press, she can't do anything that repeats what the Mad King did -- particularly burning a father and son i.e. Rickon and Brandon Stark.  Surely she knew?  

Edited August 30, 2017 by Misplaced

[spaceghostess]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I had forgotten that Jon had a sex scene with Ygritte. I went back and watched it YT. Other than him "bending the knee," there really was a nothing much in that scene. I found the scene with Dany was way more explicit and intense even though it was shorter.  

Have to say that I never liked Jon's relationship with Ygritte because of his deception and the lies so he could stay alive to return to Night Watch. I know that Ygritte knew, but still, it was obviously that she kept hoping that he would choose her. Tragic.

Points taken, and I totally agree re: how sad that their connection was predicated on a lie and then ended so horribly. IIRC, the cave tryst in the show hews really closely to the book version, except for GRRM's idiotic decision to give them a cold spring instead of a hot one, which the show corrected in the post-"bending the knee" scene. (I gripe about this in the insanely long post I just did, but feel free to skip that tome!)

[YaddaYadda]

31 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I loved Olenna. I think that protecting Margaery was foremost in her mind when she conspired to kill Joffrey. She didn't give a thought to the fall out as long as her family was not implicated. Olenna's big mistake was not killing Cersei first. 

Olenna skipped all of season 1 and didn't realize that the reason Ned was killed was because he showed Cersei and her children mercy. 

[Willowy]

For those saying that was the jawbone of a baby dragon, I'm not so sure. I think that it was a visual reminder for us of what they'd said multiple times - that eventually the dragons shrunk in on themselves and were about the size of a small dog.

Also if that's what's just lying on the surface, imagine what's underground. Aren't there any Westerosi paleontologists around?

[Francie]

3 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

Ah, but his only other sex scene on this show was with Rose Leslie (Ygritte), who I'd definitely consider longer and angular--next to Kit, at least. Then again, the workarounds in that particular scene very successfully sidestepped the height issue, IMHO. *creeps off to gutter*

My favorite Ygritte/Jon romantic moment was the kiss on top of the wall, in The Climb. 

I enjoyed their dynamic. Rose Leslie was Kit was a great match up. Jon and Ygritte benefitted from much better dialogue, with her teasing him about his vows and what it meant to be free. 

21 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Olenna skipped all of season 1 and didn't realize that the reason Ned was killed was because he showed Cersei and her children mercy. 

Ned was killed because he 1) Trusted Littlefinger; 2) Put his fate into the hands of 16-year-old spiteful brat; and 3) was, generally, an idiot. 

[spaceghostess]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

IHaving whined about their colors, however....there wasn't one thing wrong with the CGI or the mechanics of the dragons in this series.  They truly look like they could actually exist, nothing about them looked fake or imaginary.  I absolutely LOVED the effects of the close-ups of both Drogon and Viserion in Ep. 5 & 6.  Drogon's facial musculature, and his "smelling" Jon with his gums, like a horse, was fantastic, as were his facial movements when he was purring like a kitten.  And both close-ups of dragon eye's were spectacular.  Emmy-worthy effects, IMO.  Those close ups could be my very favorite things about this season.  Oh, and Ice Viserion's flight movements have been made more mechanical, choppy, and far less graceful than the flight of live dragons.  I don't know how they'd improve on the basics of the dragons at this point, other than their coloration. 

THIS, absolutely. The FX in that scene with Jon blew me away. Drogon's response to touch was flawless, and ITA with your comparison to horse expressions; the animators must have examined that at some point. That scene was so gorgeous and mesmerizing that I showed it to my kids (their only experience with GoT is scenes with Drogon taking off, landing, and being petted, and I intend to keep it that way until they're above the age of majority).

Edited August 30, 2017 by spaceghostess

[spaceghostess]

9 minutes ago, Francie said:

My favorite Ygritte/Jon romantic moment was the kiss on top of the wall, in The Climb. 

I enjoyed their dynamic. Rose Leslie was Kit was a great match up. Jon and Ygritte benefitted from much better dialogue, with her teasing him about his vows and what it meant to be free. 

Ned was killed because he 1) Trusted Littlefinger; 2) Put his fate into the hands of 16-year-old spiteful brat; and 3) was, generally, an idiot. 

OMG, how could I forget about the kiss atop The Wall? I loved that, too. Well-deserved credit to the show for that scene--it really was beautiful. I also enjoyed the two of them, but always with that underlying feeling of impending doom. Her death brought me to tears; talk about a lose-lose situation.

[Misplaced]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

Oh, and Ice Viserion's flight movements have been made more mechanical, choppy, and far less graceful than the flight of live dragons.  

I am SO pleased that someone else is calling him Ice Viserion because I cannot, CANNOT, get that Vanilla Ice song out of my head ...

(To wit: 'Ice Ice Baby, Vanilla Ice Ice Baby' for everyone born after the 1980's, and yes, you should Youtube it, because it *remains* an awesome song).  

[TigerLynx]

19 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Olenna skipped all of season 1 and didn't realize that the reason Ned was killed was because he showed Cersei and her children mercy. 

Hee!!!

If Lyanna went with Rhaeger willingly, and they were married, Lyanna's and Elia's families still would have had a right to object to the marriage.  Brandon and Rickard (Lyanna's brother and father) would still have had the right to go to the King, and ask for Lyanna's return.  If Rhaeger did send Ravens to let the right people know what was going on, if they were intercepted, if the Mad King out of paranoia, if Rhaeger was also insane, if someone else interfered - there are simply to many ifs and speculation the writers have left dangling.  Why would Ned not tell Cat the truth about Jon's parents?

Once the Mad King murdered Brandon and Rickard, and took Elia and her children hostage, the lords did have the right to rebel.  The King owes loyalty to his noblemen and subjects just like they owe loyalty to him, and knights and soldiers are supposed to protect the people just like they do the lords they serve.  When the Mad King was planning to kill everyone in King's Landing, Jamie's duty to protect the people took precedence over his oath to the King.  Jamie the twincest jerk who shoved a child out a window to protect his secret did the right thing when he killed to King, and he is right now for wanting to join forces with Jon and Dany to defeat the White Walkers.

Rhaeger wanting to replace Elia with a wife who could give him more children does resemble Henry VIII.  Ironically, after all of the murders and marriages Henry VIII committed, his son Edward with Jane Seymour only ruled for a few years and died young.  His daughter Mary with Katherine of Aragon then ruled, but didn't have any children (which might not have been the case if Henry VIII had allowed her to marry when she was young).  His daughter Elizabeth with Anne Bolyne then took the throne and ruled for longer than Henry or any other Tudor.  So Henry VIII's I have to have a male heir idiocy accomplished nothing but a lot of people being killed.

I'm not sure what to think about Jon and Dany.  It's a tragic story, but one of the reasons it's so tragic is because a lot of these people are to stupid to live.  I hate when a SL devolves down to people keeping secrets they don't have to, and doing really dumb things that aren't necessary.

[Blonde Gator]

15 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

I am SO pleased that someone else is calling him Ice Viserion because I cannot, CANNOT, get that Vanilla Ice song out of my head ...

(To wit: 'Ice Ice Baby, Vanilla Ice Ice Baby' for everyone born after the 1980's, and yes, you should Youtube it, because it *remains* an awesome song).  

O/T but.....Robb would be so happy to be mentioned along with GOT.  He'd probably fall off the roof of his latest Palm Beach mansion he's renovating (on his HGTV Vanilla Ice Project).  Hilariously bad show, BTW, but I watch, because South Florida.

[Macbeth]

15 hours ago, patchwork said:

The Golden Company are mercenaries why would they stick around after they find out about the army of the dead? I'm expecting them to have one big battle/pay day before running back to Essos.

Now that the NK has brought down the wall (kinda) shouldn't his zombie AOA start to affect the Seven Kingdoms? 

Seriously - Right.

Stannis had employed mercenaries not only as an army, but also as a fleet.  And a good portion of that fleet was at Hardhome, and saw what went down.  Those mercenaries should be spreading word about the White Walkers throughout the rest of the world.

We haven't seen our favorite pirate Sallador Saan since then.  He was either there or heard and steered his ship away from Westeros pronto.

[stillshimpy]

2 hours ago, madam magpie said:

For what it's worth, and even though it's kind of icky, I don't actually care about the incest morally; these are consenting adults who had no idea they were related. To me, it's a sad wrench to throw at them. But given the types of people they are, I imagine it will bother them both for a variety of reasons. 

That's precisely where I am with it also, it's icky because of what I know but it's tragic because of what they don't know.  These are two people who have been through a lot of hell.  They have both tried to put their duty/goals ahead of their personal desires (Dany left Daario and Jon did love Ygritte) and they found something that should have been okay, should have been "finally, some happiness and solace in this increasingly brutal world" and...they are both set to be emotionally mugged. 

Sure, I recoil from the "Oh jeez, you just boned your aunt, dude!"  but Jon has no way of knowing that and far worse, no reason to even suspect it is possible.  Neither does Dany.  It's genuinely sad but because it's also "...because it is really quite icky" I don't expect they'll decide to just forge ahead.  

Those poor people (characters, you all know what I mean).  It's a cruel twist to that moment.  It's sad because they are both the sort of people to have genuine anguish over this. 

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

It would be so cool, in fact, that I found it hard to believe there are any recognizable bones left. Everyone in the kingdoms knows that there's an ancient pit in King's Landing where the dragons used to live, and in the hundreds of years it's been lying abandoned, treasure hunters and sightseers haven't descended on it and picked it clean of every dragon-related relic?

That is precisely the reason I was on the "Stop playing with that person's bones! Dear Dog, what hell?" because it wouldn't have occurred to me that there were bones there after all that time.  Sure the big bones survived in the Crypt but that was awfully exposed to the elements.   

1 hour ago, Misplaced said:

Not 'fair' but if Dany is hell-bent on breaking the wheel, she needs to not deliberately repeat the actions her future people will think about when they think about the wheel.  Again, it might not be 'fair', and in point of fact it probably isn't, but if she wants good press, she can't do anything that repeats what the Mad King did -- particularly burning a father and son i.e. Rickon and Brandon Stark.  Surely she knew?  

This is the thing with burning people.  She knows that her father was a madman who did terrible things, she's admitted as much.  She can't emulate him, even the appearance of it, and persuade people that she's any different than he is.  

I know Dany isn't deranged but she didn't need to burn the Tarlys.  Tyrion was right and it is particularly wrong because she knows what it is like to be the last of a family.  Kind of not for long, I think we're all accurately guessing whether or not she shuns Jon (and I do expect them both to simply say, "this is wrong" ) she likely will be pregnant.  

I've always liked that Dany is fallible but they made poor Dickon into such a White Hat and an honorable one at that.  She wants the Northern Lords to follow her and that's going to be a hurdle to clear.  Even if she comes around to understanding, "Well, that was wrong and I'm not doing it any longer"   Sam's family members are just as dead, so it's never going to help him.  I know his father sucked and the story on the screen downplayed the extent...compared to Martin's frankly melodramatic treatment that suffered from an embarrassing excess (as a lot of his villains do) ...but he was still the guy that threatened to kill Sam if he didn't join the Night's Watch.  But they went out of their way to make Sam's younger brother a sweet guy and there's no way that isn't significant to Sam. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by stillshimpy

[YaddaYadda]

36 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Seriously - Right.

Stannis had employed mercenaries not only as an army, but also as a fleet.  And a good portion of that fleet was at Hardhome, and saw what went down.  Those mercenaries should be spreading word about the White Walkers throughout the rest of the world.

We haven't seen our favorite pirate Sallador Saan since then.  He was either there or heard and steered his ship away from Westeros pronto.

Salladhor Saan was taking Davos down to White Harbor, lost a few ships during storms, had a freak out because he didn't get paid for his efforts, left Davos off the Three Sisters and headed down to the Stepstones which has got to be one of the most interesting places we never see. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[GraceK]

I don't see why there is endless defense of Dickson ( tee hee) and Randall Tarly. Is Dickon a nice guy? Yes. He's a nice guy who betrayed the Tyrells, killed his friends and helped rob them of gold. Let's not pretend he was skipping through a field singing pacifist ballads.  So he was nice big deal. Randall was a complete shitheel . Dickson chose to die with his father when he had every chance of mercy, just like he chose to follow his father into being a turncoat and didn't defend his brother either. He was weak willed and chose to die along side his bully of a father. I'm weeping over it. I also find it ironic that people  saying Poor Dickon!! He was so nice!  Mean Dany! Are the same people who think Ned and Jon are morons for their honor.

 

if Dany was as much of tyrant as some people think she is, she would have attacked kings landing immediately at full strength and conquered the shit out of Westeros. She certainly wouldn't have put her life and her children's at risk by rescuing Jon Snow and that whole band of wight catchers. She lost a dragon trying to do the right thing and help people, but sure, let's keep raking her over the coals for executing her enemies.

Edited August 31, 2017 by GraceK

[Macbeth]

16 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Salladhor Saan was taking Davos down to White Harbor, lost a few ships during storms, had a freak out because he didn't get paid for his efforts, left Davos off the Three Sisters and headed down to the Stepstones which has got to be one of the most interesting places we never see. 

That did happen in the book.  On the show he disappeared.

I like my theory better.  Don't mess me up with facts.  I'd like to think Sallador Saan is working his wiles and trying to get the rest of his gold out of his wife's hands.

[madam magpie]

@stillshimpy Yeah, I pretty much agree about Jon and Dany, though I can't help wondering if ultimately they will forge ahead together. They are, hands down, the best and strongest alliance, and they need (and want, obviously) each other. Who even needs to know the real story? It's probably wishful thinking, though, and I've been worried Dany will die and Jon end up taking it all for many seasons now...mainly because she can't actually just march to victory from beginning to end, can she?? Maybe she'll die in childbirth after heroically defeating the Night King atop Drogon and sacrificing Viseryon for the greater good. Maybe it'll be after Jon forsakes the Iron Throne and reasserts his pledge that she's his queen. Then he'll grudgingly step up to ensure that their baby grows up to rule everything. That would be typically overwrought and befitting a show that won't let ANYONE have ANY peace.

I don't have any problem with her methods of rule, though, which is a little weird because in real life I'm a huge ACLU supporter who is adamantly opposed to capital punishment, mass incarceration, and most war. But I feel like this world is in desperate need of tough, benevolent control. These people are mostly nuts with little sense of mercy. They don't believe in democracy. The only people who've shown any real commitment to freedom are Dany herself, Jon, and Tyrion somewhat. Do any of them, Dany included, believe in equality of race and class?? Dad Tarly was awful, wasn't he? Or do I remember wrong? Sure, Dickon seemed nice enough, but he'd have killed Dany where she stood if he'd had the chance. That's what his army was there to do. War is hell as they say, and if you're too dumb to bend the knee after you've lost and the lady with the frakkin dragons tells you to so you can live, well then...

Edited August 31, 2017 by madam magpie

[Nanrad]

9 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Yes, you do. You can make mistakes and still have rights, and besides, she's right. Lyanna didn't have a vote in whether she married Robert. The only way to marry her choice was to run away.

Thing is: almost none of the houses/royalty have a choice--that goes for men and women. Granted, Lyanna had less of a choice, but unless she is a commoner, more times than not, your spouse was arranged. Now, the hypocrisy comes in when it comes to pre-marital sex. But, marriage is very much different. 

 

Have we come to an agreement about where recognized bastards get their names from. Because if it's from the region they are born in, why did Ned give Jon Snow as his last name? Everyone knows he wasn't born in the North even if they didn't know it was Dorne. So, doesn't that point to the kid being named after where the father is housed? Jon is named Snow in both the show and the books. Either the author, character, or show broke the narrative or continent law.

[Mabinogia]

4 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Have we come to an agreement about where recognized bastards get their names from.

It's hard to figure out when, as you point out, the creator of this world can't even seem to keep it straight. Because if it's based on where the kid was born...not Snow. If it's based on where they mother is from (technically Snow, since Lyanna is a Stark however, no one is supposed to know she's the mother, so didn't Ned pretend it was some southerner he screwed while away from home and then he came back with a baby) so again, not Snow. If it's where the kid was raised, then Snow would make sense. If it's where the father is from, well that makes no fucking sense because then all these men's extramarital affairs would be revealed, so that is not it. So I'm going with where raised. It's the only thing that fits Jon being a Snow. It really is a silly sort of system anyway. Why don't these kids just have their mothers' names like bastards in the real world? lol

[Nanrad]

2 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Why don't these kids just have their mothers' names like bastards in the real world? lol

Sooooo, Stark? lol

ETA: would've gotten a little messy. *shifty eyes*

Edited August 31, 2017 by Nanrad

[madam magpie]

4 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Why don't these kids just have their mothers' names like bastards in the real world? lol

I suspect it's to shame them no matter where they go.

[anamika]

42 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I've always liked that Dany is fallible but they made poor Dickon into such a White Hat and an honorable one at that.  She wants the Northern Lords to follow her and that's going to be a hurdle to clear.  Even if she comes around to understanding, "Well, that was wrong and I'm not doing it any longer"   Sam's family members are just as dead, so it's never going to help him.  I know his father sucked and the story on the screen downplayed the extent...compared to Martin's frankly melodramatic treatment that suffered from an embarrassing excess (as a lot of his villains do) ...but he was still the guy that threatened to kill Sam if he didn't join the Night's Watch.  But they went out of their way to make Sam's younger brother a sweet guy and there's no way that isn't significant to Sam. 

I am pretty sure that the Northern Lords will have no issues with Dany handing out justice to the Tarlys.

Let's remember that Sansa - whom the Northern Lords want to make Queen because Jon is off trying to save their asses - wanted to punish children for the treason committed by their parents even after their parents were executed for said treason. She wanted to punish a 10 year old child who was ready to bend the knee and pledge allegiance, strip him of his home and lands that have belonged to his family for hundreds of years and throw him out amongst the common folk. 

In comparison to that child, Dickon was an adult who actually committed treason against his liege lords, refused to bend the knee,  killed people who were his brothers in arms, ransacked and looted the Reach so that Cersei is even now sitting comfortably in KL with gold to hire mercenaries and backstab Jon/Dany.

So no. Sam's brother was not a 'sweet guy' and he was also not that great a brother to Sam. Even in the books, there's a vast difference in how he treated Sam as opposed to how Robb/Bran treated their brother Jon who was also an outcast.  So John Bradley is right when he says that Sam is not going to be too cut up about it...

Quote

Sam still doesn’t know about the death of his father and brother. How do you think he’ll respond when he learns that Jon’s new queen-aunt-lover burned them alive? Will that put a dent in their friendship? Will he even care at this point?

When Sam went back home to Horn Hill, he reconnected with his younger self and his place in that family. He had carried around those psychological scars and what that family did to him as a child, and he didn’t feel like that person anymore. He broke free of it. He doesn’t see himself anymore as a Tarly. He doesn’t see himself anymore as a man of the Night’s Watch. He doesn’t see himself anymore as a maester-in-training at the Citadel. He’s not tied to anything anymore. And he certainly wouldn’t jeopardize anything between Jon and Dany because Sam knows what his father was like. I don’t think Sam would be too heartbroken over it, to be honest! [Laughs]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/arts/television/game-of-thrones-samwell-tarly-interview.html

[mac123x]

If Lyanna and Rhaegar had gotten married a little further north then he couldda been named Jonny Storm.

 

No no, don't bother, I'll see myself out.

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

c) Even as I ship D & J, I paradoxically find the whole situation incredibly sad and frustrating.  (The setup is truly tragic, as stillshimpy eloquently pointed out.) I'm angry that two people who've been through so much can't find a little goddamn happiness because the writing went here. 

... as yet! We are not at the end of the story. I don't view the reveal about Jon's legitimacy as tragic rather than it is an obstacle for Jon and Dany's love to overcome. 

 

1 hour ago, stillshimpy said:

This is the thing with burning people.  She knows that her father was a madman who did terrible things, she's admitted as much.  She can't emulate him, even the appearance of it, and persuade people that she's any different than he is.  

I know Dany isn't deranged but she didn't need to burn the Tarlys.  Tyrion was right and it is particularly wrong because she knows what it is like to be the last of a family.  Kind of not for long, I think we're all accurately guessing whether or not she shuns Jon (and I do expect them both to simply say, "this is wrong" ) she likely will be pregnant.  

I've always liked that Dany is fallible but they made poor Dickon into such a White Hat and an honorable one at that.  She wants the Northern Lords to follow her and that's going to be a hurdle to clear.  Even if she comes around to understanding, "Well, that was wrong and I'm not doing it any longer"   Sam's family members are just as dead, so it's never going to help him.  I know his father sucked and the story on the screen downplayed the extent...compared to Martin's frankly melodramatic treatment that suffered from an embarrassing excess (as a lot of his villains do) ...but he was still the guy that threatened to kill Sam if he didn't join the Night's Watch.  But they went out of their way to make Sam's younger brother a sweet guy and there's no way that isn't significant to Sam. 

Poor Dickon? Your definition of honorable and sweet differs from mine. Dickon betrayed his oath and killed his friends, the Tyrell bannerman. Not only was he a traitor, he was a fool who only thought of his pride and father when he should have been thinking about his mother and sister all alone in the world. 

Tyrion was wrong about the Tarlys as he has been about everything since they arrived in Westeros. Subconsciously, he is trying to protect his family, but notice Cersei doesn't give a shit about him. I don't want Missandei or Dany to end up on that table being raped by the Mountain so Tyrion can f' off. Dany did need to burn the Tarlys and was right to do so. It was lesson to the other Lannister bannermen that she was serious and it saved many lives as many Westeros lords will stay on the sidelines and not be foolish enough to pledge themselves to Cersei like the dumbass Tarlys.

Edited August 31, 2017 by SimoneS

[ulkis]

I don't think Dany should have used the dragons for the Tarlys. 

Edited September 3, 2017 by ulkis

[anamika]

10 hours ago, ulkis said:

I suppose she could have told them that if she wasn't proclaimed Queen she would tell Littlefinger to take his men back to the Vale. 

Probably would not have worked, but she had that leverage.

Becoming queen using blackmail? You are right, probably would not have worked.

22 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Re: the Tarlys. I think Dany should have had them beheaded. Was burning them that much slower? No. But there is just a stronger visceral reaction, imo.

Jon had a 10 yr old hanged for mutiny - his neck did not break immediately - we had to look at the swollen face and bulging eyes of a child.

We saw a man getting eaten alive by hungry dogs.

Arya baked some men into pies and fed them to Walder Frey and later we saw a whole lot of them clutching their throats and dying from poisoning.

If we don't have visceral reactions to the above because it's justice, why would we to Dany executing the Tarlys using dragonfire - the least painful death compared to the above - the Tarlys became ashes in seconds. 

I did have a visceral reaction to Stannis burning Mance because Ciarán Hinds was just amazing and that took a while. That was a slow roast.

That's why I think Tyrion is a bit of a hypocrite. He used wildfire against Stannis and we saw several people partially burned and crying out in pain. As Davos pointed out, his own son was killed by Tyrion using Wildfire. He knew who he was supporting when he came to Westeros with Dany. Was he expecting Dany to never, ever use her dragons?

The dragons are Dany's weapons. It's what she uses to kill. She offered to forgive them if they bend the knee, they refused. She would have offered to send them to the wall, they refused. She looked them in the eyes, passed the sentence and swung the metaphorical sword (in this case her dragons) herself.

Edited August 31, 2017 by anamika

[ulkis]

I don't think using the dragons on the Tarlys means that Dany is on her way to becoming the wicked witch of westeros, just that it wasn't the best choice.

Edited September 3, 2017 by ulkis

[Blonde Gator]

11 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I'm sure people did have visceral reactions to that stuff, and  I fast forwarded over two of those myself. They all should have chosen the swifter method as well.

I'm not one of the posters who think it means Dany is on her way to becoming the wicked witch of westeros, just that it wasn't the best choice.

My visceral reaction was to Bronn/Dothraki charge, when the poor horse had it's leg cut off.  I covered my head and put my fingers in my ears on every single rewatch.  Screw Ollie, the little traitor.

[VCRTracking]

So this comment by 83kFencemen on Reddit made me feel better about Sansa trusting Littlefinger again recently after saying a "only a fool would":
 

Quote

 

You might be underestimating how long Jon has been gone from Winterfell. At one point she said it's been weeks since the last raven and I think she said that before they were even back from beyond the wall. Including their time in Dragonstone, beyond the wall and then King's Landing, he's been gone for ages.

She's surely on edge because of that and having Arya breathe down her neck, threatening and intimidating her at every turn surely doesn't help.

In my mind these circumstances are what's brought her back closer to Baelish. Take away Jon because he's gone, Bran because he's not Bran anymore, Arya because she's being a psycho and suddenly Sansa doesn't have that many people in Winterfell anymore. Littlefinger while she doesn't trust him is still looking out for her.

I don't think it's too far fetched that she's buying into it. Planting the letter and Arya's resulting behaviour isn't something she can attribute to him scheming. She just doesn't know Arya anymore at this point. She has no idea what to expect, anything's possible including her being a psycho. Only once LF pressured her to take action against Arya repeatedly she probably realized something was up.

 

I also want to add that now I don't think Arya wasn't really going to kill Sansa, she was playing the "game of faces" as lots of people pointed out. Arya got the truth, that Sansa wasn't going to betray Jon, but it did scare the hell out of Sansa(and me)!

Also note that since the scene of Sansa going to Bran was deleted it's not canon so I can still hold on to the idea that they were plotting against Littlefinger all along. It really dependent on Sansa and Arya being great actresses in-universe but why not? I've just imagined Mission: Impossible like scenarios of Arya whispering to a warged raven after finding the letter and  Bran and Sansa at the Weirwood and Bran repeating what Arya said!

[anamika]

26 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I'm not one of the posters who think it means Dany is on her way to becoming the wicked witch of westeros, just that it wasn't the best choice.

The problem is that in this fandom, Dany is usually damned if she does and damned if she does not. In season 5, she got a ton of criticism because she had Daario execute Mossador instead of doing it herself - mainly because that scene was followed by Jon taking off Slynt's head and it showed that he was the better leader because the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword and all that. But then she actually executes people herself using her weapons and she is deemed too cruel or mad.

I did think her choice was alright.  She got everyone else there to immediately bend the knee.  Tyrion's arguments made no sense to me in that scene.

Quote

In my mind these circumstances are what's brought her back closer to Baelish. Take away Jon because he's gone, Bran because he's not Bran anymore, Arya because she's being a psycho and suddenly Sansa doesn't have that many people in Winterfell anymore. Littlefinger while she doesn't trust him is still looking out for her.

Yes, let's blame Sansa idiotically trusting in LF on Jon, Arya and Bran. What's new!

Sansa trusting in LF and giving him free reign in WF was what led to LF knowing where to find the letter that he then used to manipulate Arya. Brienne kept trying to warn her, but dumb Sansa could not see past her own ego and take the advice because she thinks she knows better than everyone else.

Edited August 31, 2017 by anamika

[GraceK]

22 minutes ago, anamika said:

The problem is that in this fandom, Dany is usually damned if she does and damned if she does not. In season 5, she got a ton of criticism because she had Daario execute Mossador instead of doing it herself - mainly because that scene was followed by Jon taking off Slynt's head and it showed that he was the better leader because the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword and all that. But then she actually executes people herself using her weapons and she is deemed too cruel or mad.

I did think her choice was alright.  She got everyone else there to immediately bend the knee.  Tyrion's arguments made no sense to me in that scene.

Yes, let's blame Sansa idiotically trusting in LF on Jon, Arya and Bran. What's new!

Sansa trusting in LF and giving him free reign in WF was what led to LF knowing where to find the letter that he then used to manipulate Arya. Brienne kept trying to warn her, but dumb Sansa could not see past her own ego and take the advice because she thinks she knows better than everyone else.

Agreed. Dany gets a lot of undeserved hate while characters like Cersei are given undeserved sympathy. One episode she's given crap for using her Dragons on enemies, the next episode she's given crap for "risking " her dragons to RESCUE people. What was more badass and heroic then swooping in to Save Jon? Viseron DIED and then she's attacked for not showing enough grief. Meanwhile Cersei is torturing her enemies and blowing people up and driving her son to suicide and people are just like " oh that wacky Cersei!"

Its the same with Jon. I've heard so much crap about what a moron he is for not being a lying shithead and how that makes him such a dumbass and crappy leader, when Cersei is the living example of exactly what he was talking about. She commits a terrible betrayal and lies to everyone's face...but Jon is the one who gets the crap?  I bet if Jon had lied to her face and agreed to her terms, he would be called a fool once she betrayed him anyway. He can't win either.

 

Not to mention that both Jon and Dany put their money where there mouth is. They fight WITH their people, they risk THEIR lives to do what's right...Jon was killed for his people and Dany lost a child. No wonder I ship those 2. They truly deserve each other.

Edited August 31, 2017 by GraceK

[rmontro]

6 hours ago, Willowy said:

For those saying that was the jawbone of a baby dragon, I'm not so sure. I think that it was a visual reminder for us of what they'd said multiple times - that eventually the dragons shrunk in on themselves and were about the size of a small dog.

Are we sure it wasn't just the jawbone of the wight?

[GraceK]

Another interesting interview with Bran. Apologies if someone already posted it.

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-finale-cut-scene-1202541941/

[Willowy]

27 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Are we sure it wasn't just the jawbone of the wight?

That crossed my mind too, but that wasn't a human jawbone (the wight had been human at some point), and it looked very old, not fresh or recent in any way. 

[Tikichick]

12 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

Hee!!!

If Lyanna went with Rhaeger willingly, and they were married, Lyanna's and Elia's families still would have had a right to object to the marriage.  Brandon and Rickard (Lyanna's brother and father) would still have had the right to go to the King, and ask for Lyanna's return.  If Rhaeger did send Ravens to let the right people know what was going on, if they were intercepted, if the Mad King out of paranoia, if Rhaeger was also insane, if someone else interfered - there are simply to many ifs and speculation the writers have left dangling.  Why would Ned not tell Cat the truth about Jon's parents?

Once the Mad King murdered Brandon and Rickard, and took Elia and her children hostage, the lords did have the right to rebel.  The King owes loyalty to his noblemen and subjects just like they owe loyalty to him, and knights and soldiers are supposed to protect the people just like they do the lords they serve.  When the Mad King was planning to kill everyone in King's Landing, Jamie's duty to protect the people took precedence over his oath to the King.  Jamie the twincest jerk who shoved a child out a window to protect his secret did the right thing when he killed to King, and he is right now for wanting to join forces with Jon and Dany to defeat the White Walkers.

Rhaeger wanting to replace Elia with a wife who could give him more children does resemble Henry VIII.  Ironically, after all of the murders and marriages Henry VIII committed, his son Edward with Jane Seymour only ruled for a few years and died young.  His daughter Mary with Katherine of Aragon then ruled, but didn't have any children (which might not have been the case if Henry VIII had allowed her to marry when she was young).  His daughter Elizabeth with Anne Bolyne then took the throne and ruled for longer than Henry or any other Tudor.  So Henry VIII's I have to have a male heir idiocy accomplished nothing but a lot of people being killed.

I'm not sure what to think about Jon and Dany.  It's a tragic story, but one of the reasons it's so tragic is because a lot of these people are to stupid to live.  I hate when a SL devolves down to people keeping secrets they don't have to, and doing really dumb things that aren't necessary.

I suspect Ned realized that at some point the talk about Jon would eat away at Cat and she would be unable to contain the revelation that Ned had indeed been faithful to her, the boy was not truly his child.

[Francie]

No mention yet, I don't think, of what may be 2 of the most important sets of lines from this episode, especially when paired:

Jorah's explanation as to why the dragons had to be held in the dragon pit, becuase they would take livestock and children. "Dragons don't understand the difference between what's theirs and what isn't. Land. Livestock. Children. Letting them roam free around a city was a problem." 

and 

Dany:  Dragons are not slaves.

Those two last dragons will never live in King's Landing. 

[Tikichick]

9 minutes ago, Francie said:

No mention yet, I don't think, of what may be 2 of the most important sets of lines from this episode, especially when paired:

Jorah's explanation as to why the dragons had to be held in the dragon pit, becuase they would take livestock and children. "Dragons don't understand the difference between what's theirs and what isn't. Land. Livestock. Children. Letting them roam free around a city was a problem." 

and 

Dany:  Dragons are not slaves.

Those two last dragons will never live in King's Landing. 

One of the last two dragons verbalized his distaste for the KL lifestyle, so we know for sure he doesn't ever want to live there. ; )

[Happy Harpy]

8 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

So this comment by 83kFencemen on Reddit made me feel better about Sansa trusting Littlefinger again recently after saying a "only a fool would":
 

I also want to add that now I don't think Arya wasn't really going to kill Sansa, she was playing the "game of faces" as lots of people pointed out. Arya got the truth, that Sansa wasn't going to betray Jon, but it did scare the hell out of Sansa(and me)!

Also note that since the scene of Sansa going to Bran was deleted it's not canon so I can still hold on to the idea that they were plotting against Littlefinger all along. It really dependent on Sansa and Arya being great actresses in-universe but why not? I've just imagined Mission: Impossible like scenarios of Arya whispering to a warged raven after finding the letter and  Bran and Sansa at the Weirwood and Bran repeating what Arya said!

This scenario doesn't work, because LF wasn't the only person in Winterfell whom Sansa could rely on.

There was Brienne. Brienne who saved her life, Brienne whom she could entirely trust to protect her, Brienne who is one of the strongest warriors in Westeros. Brienne whom Sansa chose to not confide in. Brienne whom Sansa. Sent. Away.

Just after LF reminded her that Brienne would have been forced to intervene if "any of [the sisters] planned to hurt the other".

So 1) Either Sansa is completely dumb: She believed that Arya might kill her, and she sent away the only person around who was physically able to protect her. 2) Either Sansa didn't want Brienne around because she thought of getting rid of Arya. Sansa being the attacker was the only case where Brienne would go against her.

If one lets go of the notion of Sansa as a perfect wittle pwincess who is never even tempted to do wrong, option 2, as well as the whole storyline, doesn't look so nonsensical anymore.

LF was the little devil on Sansa's shoulder. He was her Iago. He was the one who flattered her ambitions, and appealed to the dark side of her personality. He was the one who sold her to the Boltons but also the one who got her out of KL, and the one who gave her her "victory" in the BotB. Above all, he was the one who would support her if she decided to play it like Cersei. That's why she went to him and not Brienne when she was afraid for her life and for her position. That dark side was her weakness, and it's weakness, not stupidity, which made her turn to LF again. Imo, she wasn't a fool who trusted LF blindly, but she thought she had a spoon long enough to dine with the devil. She believed that he loved her in his way (true) so I think she believed he didn't know about Ramsay, or at least would never put her at risk of bodily harm again.

Both sisters have flaws, they never truly liked or understood each other, never knew how to communicate with each other. Arya had all the reasons to distrust Sansa, and Sansa all the reasons to be afraid of Arya. That's why both played right into LF's hand until the moment Arya read the truth on Sansa's face and gave her the dagger, and until the moment Sansa realized the flaw in LF's logic (Lady of Winterfell). In hindsight, I find it more interesting that Sansa, after being tempted, symbolically killed her selfish ambitions and fully embraced being part of the Stark pack. And more satisfying that LF's blood on the floor was proof of it.

I personally didn't need to see Sansa go to Bran. I prefer, on rewatch especially, get the little hints that things weren't what they seemed: Bran being there for the trial, Arya's unfazed attitude (contrast with the Lannister soldiers early in the season), "is it the dagger at her side, she has it back?!".

31 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I suspect Ned realized that at some point the talk about Jon would eat away at Cat and she would be unable to contain the revelation that Ned had indeed been faithful to her, the boy was not truly his child.

Or would give Jon away without any hesitation if any of the children she birthed was ever in danger.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Happy Harpy

[Tikichick]

I think for Danaerys she completely fell head over heels for Jon in the dragon pit when he refused to go back on his word or to lie.  Though she doesn't know it yet she's also getting her first look at her blood kin behaving in a way that is not mad, cruel or anything else associated with her experience of Viserys or the stories of her father. 

[Misplaced]

8 hours ago, rmontro said:

Are we sure it wasn't just the jawbone of the wight?

 

7 hours ago, Willowy said:

That crossed my mind too, but that wasn't a human jawbone (the wight had been human at some point), and it looked very old, not fresh or recent in any way. 

I'm certain it was a tiny-dragon jaw (yet another callback to Season 3, where Tywin says the dragon head that was mounted next to the Iron Throne was about the size of an apple) but I couldn't stop thinking about Samson and the jawbone of an ass:  "and he put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men forthwith."  In medieval art, the weapon used by Cain to murder his brother Abel is also the jawbone of an ass.   Now of course I'm reading waaaaaaaaay too much into a strong heroic guy with flowy locks picking up a jawbone, but hey, that's what viewer interpretations are for, right?  Will Jon slay thousands with a dragon?  Will he betray and murder his blood kin?  Has he given away the instrument of destruction that defines him?   Will a woman cut his hair?  Oh wait ....

I thought it was a very interesting moment, even if it's all in my own head.    

Edited August 31, 2017 by Misplaced
Too many commas....

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

This scenario doesn't work, because LF wasn't the only person in Winterfell whom Sansa could rely on.

There was Brienne. Brienne who saved her life, Brienne whom she could entirely trust to protect her, Brienne who is one of the strongest warriors in Westeros. Brienne whom Sansa chose to not confide in. Brienne whom Sansa. Sent. Away.

Sansa knew that Brienne would step in to protect Arya and that's why she got send away. Because Sansa was really thinking of having Arya taken down:

Quote

“Funny enough, we did actually shoot a scene that didn’t make it into that episode where Sansa knocks on Bran’s door, and I don’t know whether they actually want to change the story, but as I understand it, Sansa came to Bran and goes, ‘Can you just look some of this up before I kill my sister?’ That kind of sentiment. Sansa just checking that fact,” said the actor.

So apparently, Sansa’s scene with Littlefinger where she questions whether Arya was going to kill her was legit. She was actually worried, but then decided to check with Bran before doing something she might regret.

http://www.huffingtonpost.in/entry/bran-stark-actor-says-cut-scene-wouldve-explained-confusing-game-of-thrones-finale-moment_us_59a5d56ee4b00795c2a26a71

I love how everyone was dragging Arya last episode for threatening Sansa, but Sansa was actively trying to get Arya killed before coming to her senses. Talk about sisterly love!

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

In hindsight, I find it more interesting that Sansa, after being tempted, symbolically killed her selfish ambitions and fully embraced being part of the Stark pack.

I don't think she has fully killed her ambitions. Just because LF is dead, those feelings are not going to go away. She wants to rule an independent North. She was not pleased about the news of Jon bending the knee and was actively contemplating deposing Jon and making herself queen. That's why the topic of Arya comes up in her conversation with LF. I still don't see Sansa actively supporting Jon against the Northern lords if they protest next season - she has never supported his decisions or agreed with him on anything. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by anamika