S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[VCRTracking]

One of the great moments in the latest "Carpool Karaoke" episode with Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner was them doing Sean Bean impressions. I always thought it was funny for a while that Sansa, Arya and Bran don't speak with "Northern" accents which are Yorkshire but more posh sounding British ones(Rickon seldom spoke so I have no recollection how he sounded). It's like on Harry Potter movies where each member of the Weasley family had an accent from a different region of England. When the show started older ones like Richard Madden(Scottish)Kit Harrington(Londoner) could put on a Yorkshire accent but the other Stark kids were young and inexperienced to do so. My headcanon is that the different accents were a result of Robb and Jon being primarily trained by Ser Rodrick, while the younger siblings were more under the tutelage of Maester Luwin and Septa(I forgot her name).

I wonder how Sam meeting Daenerys will go? He doesn't seem to know what happened to his father and brother. He could introduce himself "My name is Samwell Tarly" and she goes "Tarly?" and then awkward pause. Sam didn't care that much for his dad(who threatened to kill him unless he joined the Night's Watch and later insulted Gilly) but he would care that Dany had her dragon roast his brother alive.

Edited September 2, 2017 by VCRTracking

[VCRTracking]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

I don't think it's as simple as that. The show just lacks the ability to write their characters and story arcs with nuance so they just box them into one-dimensional tropes - brave warrior, politician, warg, assassin, queen etc.

The books get to have POV chapters and you read thoughts and why they feel the need to act certain ways and do certain things. Readers get inside their heads and which make them understand their motives more. They may not agree with them but they do understand them. A TV show can't offer that and viewers judge characters by what they seem them say and do, and not able to judge them by what they think.

[MadMouse]

All the characters have been white washed to a certain degree, Tyrion and Cersei the most. Book Tyrion is a straight villian thats been portrayed in a sympathetic light. I might not buy into him making a side deal with Cersei theory but him betraying Dany wouldn't shock me, especially if the characters end up in the same general place as in the books.

 

But the one that gets overlooked is Jon. He's alot more morally grey in the books, still a good man but not the Ned clone we see on the show. The biggest change are his rage blackouts or to be more accurate " waking the dragon" moments, when he's terrifying. A fifteen or sixteen years old boy whos described as lean while recovering from arrow wounds with one hand lifts Thorne off his feet and starts choking him. It took several guys to pull him off. It's the same with his practice with the guy from Eastwatch, thinks about being called a bastard and the next thing he's put a grown man on his ass and it takes two people to stop him. Book Jon would have killed Ramsay with his bare hands. 

[Macbeth]

6 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Hell Sam may have the damn recipe in one of those books.

North has Watson/ google/Branhattan and Sam who can follow written directions.

Exactly. All Sam has to do is ask Bran to bring up the Wikipedia page on how to create wildfire.

[SeanC]

7 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Actually, it means the supreme military leader of a region, as sort of a surrogate for the monarch in that regard.

The administrative type duties fall to the Lord Paramount of the region, which is often the same as the Warden, but not always.  The Warden is a titled bestowed by the monarch, but the monarch removes the right to bestow it upon whomever he chooses, whereas the Lord Paramount title is hereditary.

In the books.  The show seems to use "Warden of the North" as a cooler-sounding title for the ruler of the North.

[spaceghostess]

2 hours ago, MadMouse said:

But the one that gets overlooked is Jon. He's alot more morally grey in the books, still a good man but not the Ned clone we see on the show. The biggest change are his rage blackouts or to be more accurate " waking the dragon" moments, when he's terrifying. A fifteen or sixteen years old boy whos described as lean while recovering from arrow wounds with one hand lifts Thorne off his feet and starts choking him. It took several guys to pull him off. It's the same with his practice with the guy from Eastwatch, thinks about being called a bastard and the next thing he's put a grown man on his ass and it takes two people to stop him. Book Jon would have killed Ramsay with his bare hands. 

Yeah, book Jon is definitely more complex, but I think his essence carries over better than many of the other characters'. IIRC, show Jon seemed as if he was fully prepared to continue beating the tar out of Ramsay until he was dead, but then looked to Sansa and understood that she wanted to finish the job. Still, point taken--I'd forgotten about the rage blackouts. Maybe a re-read is in order between now and next season. Lord knows there's plenty of time . . .

Back on topic, the Dragon Pit scene (before, and especially after Daenerys arrives) offered stink-eye exchanges of epic proportions. Like, I don't think I've seen daggers stared like that since The Women and All About Eve. Awesome. But Sam's response to Bran's declaration that he's the Three-eyed Raven--"Oooh! . . . .I don't know what that is?"--brought me unparalleled joy and may have been my favorite thing ever.

Edited September 2, 2017 by spaceghostess
qualifier change

[anamika]

12 minutes ago, doram said:

That's a far cry from the original implication that Dany explicitly ordered her Unsullied to target and murder 13-year-old boys (or girls). Also, some context is needed here. In  this is a world where 12-year-old (in the books) Joffrey Baratheon was crowned King in his own rights, without a Regent, and - even in the show - Lyanna Mormont is a liege lord and treated with the respect of that status, and 10-year-old Olly is considered old enough to join the Night's Watch and merit an execution.

 

Dany herself was forced into marriage, raped and lost a husband and child when she was 13. She was commanding a Khalasar by the end of the first book. So we can see why she thinks of 12-13 yr olds as adults.

Edited September 2, 2017 by anamika

[ulkis]

25 minutes ago, doram said:

John Bradley (actor who plays Sam) has this to say:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/arts/television/game-of-thrones-samwell-tarly-interview.html

I disagree with John Bradley. Maybe he'll get past it, but if it wasn't going to be anything the maester wouldn't have made a point to mention he didn't tell Sam. 

But the show is not above a cheap cliffhanger or plot point, so I can see Sam getting mad for a moment and then saying, "eh, I didn't like them that much anyway."

Edited September 2, 2017 by ulkis

[TaurusRose]

10 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I'm sure Sansa wouldn't mind the rest, he can give wardenship to anyone, he have to usurp her to take Winterfell, seeing that she actually running that land well do you really think he trust someone else, especially that they are family ?

The way I'm understanding this is that Winterfell is the Starks' family home and whoever is the HSIC runs all of Winterfell's business and because Starks have historically been named Warden of the North the two became synonymous.  But if the crown gives the title to someone other than a Stark, that person could conceivably move the seat of power to any castle he/she wants. In this scenario, Winterfell is just another northern house who must answer to the warden.  So, in this case, Sansa wouldn't be any greater than say Lord Manderly or Lady Mormont.  Make sense? Agree/disagree? 

Edited September 2, 2017 by taurusrose
Correct typo. Blasted auto spell check!

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, spaceghostess said:

Back on topic, the Dragon Pit scene (before, and especially after Daenerys arrives) offered stink-eye exchanges of epic proportions. Like, I don't think I've seen daggers stared like that since The Women and All About Eve. Awesome. But Sam's response to Bran's declaration that he's the Three-eyed Raven--"Oooh! . . . .I don't know what that is?"--brought me unparalleled joy and may have been my favorite thing ever.

I love these comments!

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

The way I'm understanding this is that Winterfell is the Starks' family home and whoever is the HSIC runs all of Winterfell's business and because Starks have historically been named Warden of the North the two became synonymous.  But if the crown gives the title to someone other than a Stark, that person could conceivably move the seat of power to any castle he/she wants. In this scenario, Winterfell is just another northern house who must answer to the warden.  So, in this case, Sansa wouldn't be any greater than say Lord Manderly or Lady Mormon Make sense? Agree/disagree? 

I would think, that let's say they made Manderly Warden of the North, White Harbor becomes the seat, I don't think he would ( I guess he could )make Winterfell the seat, I would ,think it be a good way to make an enemy.

They do have a owner-less ( well technically Sansa's Dreadfort ) that can be a new seat.

It be poor judgement to me, to tell the lady of her family home, it's yours, but I'm moving in.

[anamika]

17 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

The way I'm understanding this is that Winterfell is the Starks' family home and whoever is the HSIC runs all of Winterfell's business and because Starks have historically been named Warden of the North the two became synonymous.  But if the crown gives the title to someone other than a Stark, that person could conceivably move the seat of power to any castle he/she wants. In this scenario, Winterfell is just another northern house who must answer to the warden.  So, in this case, Sansa wouldn't be any greater than say Lord Manderly or Lady Mormon Make sense? Agree/disagree? 

It will be interesting to see how they deal with all this in the books. Robb actually legitimizes Jon as a Stark when he names him as heir and KITN and he also removes Sansa from the line of inheritance. So if Robb's will is how Jon becomes KITN in the books, then as a Stark, Winterfell belongs to him. Jon moves to the front of the line of all the Stark siblings and gets to decide who becomes warden of the north. The line of inheritance to Winterfell goes Jon, Bran, Rickon and Arya. Sansa is out. And Rickon will be making a grand comeback with Davos and Manderly.

Quote

“No,” Catelyn agreed. “You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son.” She considered a moment. “Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest… it might have been a Templeton, but…”

“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. “A Snow is not a Stark.”

“Jon’s more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell.”

Man, I miss Robb.

Edited September 2, 2017 by anamika

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, doram said:

I think Sansa implied that the Dreadfort  would be pulled down brick by brick when she told Ramsay that his House and his line would vanish.

44 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

May be, but as of now it's still standing and it could be rebuilt and made a valid seat for anyone, show wise it's Sansa's and I think while the LN2 is coming, she keep it manned and standing.

After that she may light the match herself.

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

In the books.  The show seems to use "Warden of the North" as a cooler-sounding title for the ruler of the North.

Examples of show implications that the title Warden is anything other than a military title, please?  The show merely uses it as another non-specific title.  In what way have we specifically seen any implications that Warden is anything other than a military title?

Lords Paramount are associated, one each, to one of the former kingdoms of Westeros, BC, (Riverlands, Dorne, Stormlands, etc.), so there are seven.  There are only four Wardens in the kingdom:  North, South, East, and West, and minor Wardens of very small specific areas....i.e. the mountain pass into Dorne. 

We see Jaime offer Warden of the South to Randyll Tarly if he turns his cloak from the Tyrell's as their liege lords, to the Crown.......making Tarly (best battle commander in Westeros) supreme military commander of the southern former kingdoms (including Dorne).  Jaime didn't offer Tarley the castle of Highgarden, nor Lord Paramount of the Reach.  He specifically offered him Warden of the South, appealing to and acknowledging Tarly's vanity as the best military commander in the kingdom, who would then be militarily subordinate to no-one but the Crown.  The military honor of Warden was the carrot, not the castle, nor the title of Lord Paramount (although that was implied).

[SeanC]

17 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Examples of show implications that the title Warden is anything other than a military title, please?  The show merely uses it as another non-specific title.  In what way have we specifically seen any implications that Warden is anything other than a military title?

The general way it's used, as if Jon being Warden is the logical step down from being king.  The way Ramsay foregrounds being acknowledged as Warden.  The way that Littlefinger talks about making Sansa the "Wardeness" of the North, which makes little sense if it's a crown military title.

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

The way I'm understanding this is that Winterfell is the Starks' family home and whoever is the HSIC runs all of Winterfell's business and because Starks have historically been named Warden of the North the two became synonymous.  But if the crown gives the title to someone other than a Stark, that person could conceivably move the seat of power to any castle he/she wants. In this scenario, Winterfell is just another northern house who must answer to the warden.  So, in this case, Sansa wouldn't be any greater than say Lord Manderly or Lady Mormont.  Make sense? Agree/disagree? 

The Wardenship has nothing to do with becoming the Lord Paramount of a region.  There are seven regions in Westeros, the "kingdoms" as configured at the time of Aegon's conquest.  There are only four Wardens. 

The Paramount Houses are associated with the great castles.  The Gardeners lost High Garden on the Field of Fire, and the Castle, and title of Lord Paramount, was taken by House Tyrell, who were the Gardner's castellans.  That's why everyone in Westeros feel the Tyrells were "upjumped" nobles.  

After Roose plotted with Tywin to murder the Starks at the Red Wedding, he was named Warden of the North by King Joffrey (Tywin), but Roose moved his seat Winterfell, because that castle is the seat of power in the North,  He could have remained in the Dreadfort, trying to move the seat of power, but Winterfell is THE seat of power in the North, so he moved castles.  He knew his hold on that title was extremely tenuous, therefore he jumped at the chance to marry his son off to Sansa Stark, giving the perception of legitimacy (Starks rule Winterfell and the North, since the beginning of First Men in Westeros).   As Varys once said, power resides where people believes it resides.  In this case, Winterfell.  

The only other situation re: House Paramount/Castle/Title I can think of on the show (or in the show's recent history) is that of Houses Tully and Frey.  Tully's were Lords Paramount of the Trident, and overlords of House Frey.  Frey was granted RiverRun after the Red Wedding, but couldn't hold it.  Jaime had to take it back.  And of course, Arya removed the Frey's from the face of the Earth.  But I don't recall the show naming Walder Frey Lord Paramount of the Trident (Book Lord Paramount of the Trident is a title that had been given to Baelish when he was granted the albatross Harrenhall).  Walder Frey kept his seat at the Twins.  Of course, it's now all moot, and the matter of Edmure Tully and Rive Run is up in the air at the end of this season. 

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

It will be interesting to see how they deal with all this in the books. Robb actually legitimizes Jon as a Stark when he names him as heir and KITN and he also removes Sansa from the line of inheritance. So if Robb's will is how Jon becomes KITN in the books, then as a Stark, Winterfell belongs to him. Jon moves to the front of the line of all the Stark siblings and gets to decide who becomes warden of the north. The line of inheritance to Winterfell goes Jon, Bran, Rickon and Arya. Sansa is out. And Rickon will be making a grand comeback with Davos and Manderly.

Man, I miss Robb.

Excellent point!!!  And if (b)Bran has the same powers as (s)Bran, Bran should be able to "see" all of this as it happened, and perhaps suss out exactly where Robb's wills sit at present.  IIRC, Robb had one copy sent to the Citadel, and one copy went North with Maege Mormont, via the Neck, where she was trying to contact the Crannogmen (Howland Reed).  She was not heard from again. 

Who knows, maybe Howland shows up in Winterfell next season, both with first hand testimony about Jon Snow's birth, AND a copy of Robb's will making Jon the official heir to Winterfell?  

Thank you...I'm even more excited and certain we'll see the Lord of Graywater Watch next season.

[Blonde Gator]

21 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The general way it's used, as if Jon being Warden is the logical step down from being king.  The way Ramsay foregrounds being acknowledged as Warden.  The way that Littlefinger talks about making Sansa the "Wardeness" of the North, which makes little sense if it's a crown military title.

Ramsay took over the title Warden from Roose when he murdered him.   Ramsay babbled a lot of bullshit about a lot of things.

Jon takes the title, on the show "Warden" because he is keeping the military control of the North for himself, in the great war to come.  "I have pledged our forces".   He's still militarily subservient to Dany in theory (as all Wardens are to the Crown), but she will turn to Jon as her total forces battle commander.  "We are both coming to organise the defence of the realm".  She's already done this when she turned aside Jorah's suggestion she fly to Winterfell, and now that we've had boatsex, no chance anyone else leads her combined military forces. 

[Katsullivan]

On 8/30/2017 at 0:54 PM, taurusrose said:

Because it doesn't matter if it's canon, Sansa's behavior here was highly suspect; underhanded and petty, as in she was still drinking the LF koolaid.  She should have TOLD Jon that the knights of the Vale were available and sent for them immediately. Instead, she went behind his back and called for them with the clear purpose of getting all the credit and some public annointment from the lords/ladies of the north. It was a straight up dick move, the kind that LF is known for. The fact that the plot backfired more than warmed my Sansa hating heart, it was like 4th of July fireworks.

I think the Sansa sour grapes fail to take into consideration the selfishness or the true motivation behind Sansa's behavior in BoTB. Her constant whining about Jon and sense of entitlement really does make her feel like Cersei lite.

And so? The Northern Lords didn't know anything about whether Sansa told Jon or not that she was sending a raven for reinforcements. Jon certainly won't have told them. As far as they knew, they witnessed Vale army which came for Sansa Stark, niece of Lysa Tully and cousin of Robin Arryn, the Lord Paramount of the Vale --- win the battle of the bastards - not Jon Snow. 

Sansa won the North threefold - as the only known living trueborn heir to Robb Stark, the last King in the North; as the victor of the Battle of the Bastards that ousted Lord Bolton, the last Warden of the North and as the widow of Lord Bolton, the last Warden of the North.  

Instead in the most contrived circumstances possible - basically, Lyanna Mormont gave a rousing speech that didn't make any sense - Jon was crowned King.

And what does he do? Does he tell the Lords, "No. This is not my birthright. My sister, Sansa is sitting right here." As he told Stannis at the Wall when Stannis offered him Winterfell? Instead he accepts it. 

I dare anyone to read my post history and think I'm a Sansa fan. That doesn't mean that I will ignore the fact that Sansa was cheated out of her victory and birth-right in season 6 to make room for Super-speshul Mary Sue Jon.

[Misplaced]

On 8/31/2017 at 3:58 PM, screamin said:

Re: Arya and Sansa, I think it's to Sansa's credit that she was willing to question her own conclusions about Arya, and ask Bran for help, while Arya was quite happy to ask for no input from Bran on her own conclusions about Sansa - conclusions which had her accusing Sansa of potential treason and waving a knife at her while talking about cutting her face off. But further discussion about that should probably be taken to an appropriate character thread.

Interesting thought.  Although ....

After this last episode, I read the "all I'd have to do is take your face" scene as (i) Arya playing the game of faces and realising Sansa is not lying -- which is why she flicks the knife over to Sansa, and (ii) Sansa realising, when Arya hands her the knife, that Arya isn't going to kill her, which really -- having seen ick! ick! FACES! and watching that very sharp Valeryian steel knife and listening to her little sister threaten to carve her like a chicken -- is a really serious and heartfelt realisation.  I am not sure the writing quite got us there, but I am happy to think that is where we should have got, at least in hindsight.  Because it's only later that Sansa plays Littlefinger's little game (creepy enough in its own callback to Season 6) and it seems totally, totally clear to me, at that moment when Sansa understands the Little(finger) Game leads to Arya as Lady of Winterfell, Sansa fully understands LF is manipulating everyone.  I do think she twigged when Arya gave her the knife in the last ep, but that's the point when everything becomes crystal-clear (even without Bran).  

[SimoneS]

20 hours ago, anamika said:

Anyways, I have to say that I am satisfied with Jon and Dany's arcs this season. I think they made the right decisions for the most part and were good leaders and I would have no issues with either of them ruling/leading the kingdoms at this point.

I agree. IMO, this season finally coming together, Dany and Jon both displayed their strengths as leaders and recognized those traits in each other. After losing three critical allies, Dany rejected Tyrion's bad advice and led the attack on the Lannisters going back on the offensive. Despite the northern lords' moaning, Jon went to Dragonstone and eventually came to recognize that Dany too was chosen to be a queen by the people she had helped and saved. As far as I am concerned, the wright hunt will forever be the most stupid plot point ever, but Dany going to help Jon, Jorah, and their crew was admirable and proved her dedication to her subjects. She agreed to fight to save the north after seeing the threat for herself and before Jon agreed to bend the knee which is one of the reasons why he did so. He recognized that she was a worthy Queen to serve. It probably helped that he was in love with her, but he loves her for the right reasons so that is cool with me. :)  There will always be problems in Westeros, but I am confident that the Seven Kingdoms, especially the common people will have better lives under Jon and Dany's rule. 

Edited September 2, 2017 by SimoneS

[GraceK]

38 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

And so? The Northern Lords didn't know anything about whether Sansa told Jon or not that she was sending a raven for reinforcements. Jon certainly won't have told them. As far as they knew, they witnessed Vale army which came for Sansa Stark, niece of Lysa Tully and cousin of Robin Arryn, the Lord Paramount of the Vale --- win the battle of the bastards - not Jon Snow. 

Sansa won the North threefold - as the only known living trueborn heir to Robb Stark, the last King in the North; as the victor of the Battle of the Bastards that ousted Lord Bolton, the last Warden of the North and as the widow of Lord Bolton, the last Warden of the North.  

Instead in the most contrived circumstances possible - basically, Lyanna Mormont gave a rousing speech that didn't make any sense - Jon was crowned King.

And what does he do? Does he tell the Lords, "No. This is not my birthright. My sister, Sansa is sitting right here." As he told Stannis at the Wall when Stannis offered him Winterfell? Instead he accepts it. 

I dare anyone to read my post history and think I'm a Sansa fan. That doesn't mean that I will ignore the fact that Sansa was cheated out of her victory and birth-right in season 6 to make room for Super-speshul Mary Sue Jon.

I disagree. Sansa brought the Vale which turned the battle in their favor absolutely, thanks to her they won. I agree with that. However, none of the houses wanted to align with them when Sansa was seeking out reinforcements. She assumed her name of Stark would have the  North rally around her , but instead the fact that she was married to 2 enemies of the the North worked against her. Glover and Lyanna Mormont threw it in her face. Secondly, just showing up looking gorgeous on the battlefield doesn't entitle you to "winning" the battle. Jon, the wildings and the Vale fought, and Jon himself fought down and beat Ramsey Bolton. Yes, Sansa deserves respect and credit for her intervention, but to think that the North would proclaim a woman Queen just for that reason, instead of the Male "blood of Ned Stark",who fought and almost died on the battlefield himself is ridiculous. Also, if Sansa had worked with Jon and told him about those soldiers, many of Jons forces might have not died. Before she got there in the nick of time, Jon and his men fought pretty damn bravely themselves. She also can't use " Widow of Lord Bolton" as an reason to claim any rights when she herself called him a usurper and keeps announcing how she was forced into marriage with him. It doesn't connect. She can't  claim Widow privileges.

 

also to add, Jon didn't steal her birthright. Her birthright was never Queen of the North. If anything it would be Lady of Winterfell, which she is.

Edited September 2, 2017 by GraceK

[Blonde Gator]

36 minutes ago, GraceK said:

also to add, Jon didn't steal her birthright. Her birthright was never Queen of the North. If anything it would be Lady of Winterfell, which she is.

Also, as Anamikia noted in support, (book) Robb Stark specifically disinherited Sansa, in the line of succession, and moved Jon Snow, his brother, to the top of the list.  This is still a dangling thread in the books, and who knows?  The showrunners could still use it in the show, there's nothing to contradict Robb's will if Howland Reed were to suddenly show up with it next season.  And supposedly, a copy of Robb's will was sent to the Citadel.....it may also show up in Sam's bag of treasured lore.

EDITED TO ADD:  Here's an official HBO link to Maisie Williams' thoughts on the whole Winterfell Arya/Sansa plot this year.  Enjoy!

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/maisie-williams-thinks-arya-went-hunting-for-trouble-this-season

Edited September 2, 2017 by Blonde Gator
To add link to Maisie Williams interview.

[MadMouse]

42 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Despite the northern lords' moaning, Jon went to Dragonstone and eventually came to recognize that Dany too was chosen to be a queen by the people she had helped and saved. As far as I am concerned, the wright hunt will forever be the most stupid plot point ever, but Dany going to help Jon, Jorah, and their crew was admirable and proved her dedication to her subjects. She agreed to fight to save the north after seeing the threat for herself and before Jon agreed to bend the knee which is one of the reasons why he did so. He recognized that she was a worthy Queen to serve. It probably helped that he was in love with her, but he loves her for the right reasons so that is cool with me. 

You're totally right about why Jon did bend the knee to Dany that other than Jon she's the only ruler that truly does care for her people. But I think it was clear from the previous scene with Tyrion that Dany went full Visenya mode because of Jon and her realization of his feelings for her. He loves me? Fire and Blood time.

[GrailKing]

On 8/30/2017 at 11:08 AM, TVbitch said:

In case anyone is interested: 

Was Sansa just playing Littlefinger the whole time? Was Arya in on it since her return to Winterfell? How did Bran get involved? Did the Stark sisters nearly kill each other? According to Isaac Hempstead-Wright, who plays Bran Stark in the show, Sansa's storyline was not as manipulative as all that -- she really did fall under Littlefinger's thrall and came dangerously close to killing Arya. We just couldn't tell because the scene explaining all that was cut from the finale. "We actually did a scene that clearly got cut, a short scene with Sansa where she knocks on Bran's door and says, 'I need your help,' or something along those lines," Hempstead-Wright told Variety. "So basically, as far as I know, the story was that it suddenly occurred to Sansa that she had a huge CCTV department at her discretion and it might be a good idea to check with him first before she guts her own sister. So she goes to Bran, and Bran tells her everything she needs to know, and she's like, 'Oh, shit.'"

I think he has a better grasp, then IHW and it makes LF last lesson and Q & A his death sentence. 

Sansa had him pegged in 7-4, after Arya's BR scene Sansa returns dagger either to Bran and ask questions, or she gives it back to Arya and they both see Bran, making that last LF lesson a ruse on Sansa's part. this is a better continuity flow, then Sansa waiting to the last second to find shit out.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/game-of-thrones-finale-director-no-romantic-jealousy-in-tyrions-reaction-to-jon-and-danys-boat-sex?source=TDB&via=FB_Page

[GraceK]

10 minutes ago, doram said:

Don't have a bone in this fight but I've got to counter that what is really ridiculous is that the same Lords who depend on legitimate birth as their own claim to power, to set a precedent where bastards are crowned above their true-born sibling s. 

I didn't think it was a fight :( I can see your point . although I did like the fact that Jon was chosen despite his bastardhood. I'm not a Sansa hater, I just don't think she's DESERVES to be crowned Queen in the North purely on the fact that Baelish was in love with her and gave her his forces.

They didn't even have to choose a King. They decided too. I'm pretty sure Jon would have been happy just to live there and continue his fight against the WW. I don't agree the idea that Jon didn't do anything and was just handled the north because he's so "special". He earned it in my opinion.

 

edited to add that your point though of pretty much Bypassing Bran, the last trueborn son doesn't make sense. You would think they would at least consider him lol

Edited September 2, 2017 by GraceK

[madam magpie]

42 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

You're totally right about why Jon did bend the knee to Dany that other than Jon she's the only ruler that truly does care for her people. But I think it was clear from the previous scene with Tyrion that Dany went full Visenya mode because of Jon and her realization of his feelings for her. He loves me? Fire and Blood time.

I think her feelings for him were part of it absolutely, but definitely not all of it. Jorah was there too, don't forget. And Dany has been losing. Sitting around at her castle while one of her most important advisors (whom she clearly loves and respects) and the guy who was quickly becoming another of her most important advisors (AND whom she'd fallen in love with AND who was the leader of her most crucial alliance) are killed when she knows she could do something to save them has never been Dany's style. Plus, like the previous poster mentioned, her riding in with the dragons showed everyone that she wasn't willing to just send people in to fight for her; she'd protect and fight with them too. Their lives are as valuable as her own. I think that decision was huge for her character and spoke volumes to the kind of leader she aims to be.

Edited September 2, 2017 by madam magpie

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, madam magpie said:

, like the previous poster mentioned, her riding in with the dragons showed everyone that she wasn't willing to just send people in to fight for her; she'd protect and fight with them too. Their lives are as valuable as her own. I think that decision was huge for her character and spoke volumes to the kind of leader she aims to be.

I couldn't agree more. She didn't even hesitate, she just went to help them and risked her life and lost a child. This is why I just don't understand the Dany hate and "she's a tyrant" arguments . She's pretty heroic herself.

Since we are bringing up Sansa I thought this was funny::

[Blonde Gator]

@GraceK....

A better picture of the Lady of Winterfell.....

[madam magpie]

6 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I couldn't agree more. She didn't even hesitate, she just went to help them and risked her life and lost a child. This is why I just don't understand the Dany hate and "she's a tyrant" arguments . She's pretty heroic herself.

Since we are bringing up Sansa I thought this was funny::

Ha! That's great!!

And not only did Dany not hesitate, she went alone, risking no one else but herself and the dragons. Against advice. And she suffered a huge loss. I think it was incredibly brave as well as an enormous risk because Tyrion was right. If she'd died, they were done. But great leaders can't just be figureheads and they can't just follow other people's advice. It's important to know what you don't know and to ask for help, but you also have to believe in your own abilities. Dany clearly knows all of that and is willing to follow through.

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, doram said:

Heck I'd argue that Dany is the most heroic person in this story. Everyone else is, to a large extent, either don't their job or fighting for survival. Jon gets a lot of praise for taking the Night King threat more seriously than anyone but -as he always reminds us - he looked into the Night King's eyes. He's seen the Army of the Dead. He's trying to save the world and he lives in it. Dany halted her life's mission, her raison d'etre to launch an Abolition Campaign in Essos just because she felt it was the right thing to do. Against the counsel of her advisors, she waged war against Yunkai and Mereen and Slavers Bay simply to free slaves, even when it delayed and even crippled her own Westeros ambitions. To me, that's what being a hero is - saving the little guy, and expecting nothing back. 

Yes to all of this! :)

[Blonde Gator]

1 minute ago, doram said:

Heck I'd argue that Dany is the most heroic person in this story. Everyone else is, to a large extent, either don't their job or fighting for survival. Jon gets a lot of praise for taking the Night King threat more seriously than anyone but -as he always reminds us - he looked into the Night King's eyes. He's seen the Army of the Dead. He's trying to save the world and he lives in it. Dany halted her life's mission, her raison d'etre to launch an Abolition Campaign in Essos just because she felt it was the right thing to do. Against the counsel of her advisors, she waged war against Yunkai and Mereen and Slavers Bay simply to free slaves, even when it delayed and even crippled her own Westeros ambitions. To me, that's what being a hero is - saving the little guy, and expecting nothing back. 

Exactly.

And to be fair, we must give a h/t to Stannis (may he RIP, or not, in the books???), as he realized he too, must go North to save the Realm, before he could win the Kingdom.

I really miss Stephen Dillane.  And his "fewer" quips.

[madam magpie]

2 minutes ago, doram said:

Heck I'd argue that Dany is the most heroic person in this story. Everyone else is, to a large extent, either don't their job or fighting for survival. Jon gets a lot of praise for taking the Night King threat more seriously than anyone but -as he always reminds us - he looked into the Night King's eyes. He's seen the Army of the Dead. He's trying to save the world and he lives in it. Dany halted her life's mission, her raison d'etre to launch an Abolition Campaign in Essos just because she felt it was the right thing to do. Against the counsel of her advisors, she waged war against Yunkai and Mereen and Slavers Bay simply to free slaves, even when it delayed and even crippled her own Westeros ambitions. To me, that's what being a hero is - saving the little guy, and expecting nothing back. 

Yes! I'll say, too, one of the things I like best about her as a leader is that she's single-minded when it comes to the long game, but she recognizes the importance of the short games too. Those events you mention plus being willing to join Jon to fight the Night King are diversions from her path, but she's smart and strategic enough to see their value. She really does listen. She's not a tyrant at all.

[MadMouse]

16 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I think her feelings for him were part of it absolutely, but definitely not all of it. Jorah was there too, don't forget. And Dany has been losing. Sitting around at her castle while one of her most important advisors (whom she clearly loves and respects) and the guy who was quickly becoming another of her most important advisors (AND whom she'd fallen in love with AND who was the leader of her most crucial alliance) are killed when she knows she could do something to save them has never been Dany's style. Plus, like the previous poster mentioned, her riding in with the dragons showed everyone that she wasn't willing to just send people in to fight for her; she'd protect and fight with them too. Their lives are as valuable as her own. I think that decision was huge for her character and spoke volumes to the kind of leader she aims to be.

True but you have to look at all the scenes. The difference in reactions between when Jorah says he'll go North and when Jon does, she was doing everything possible for him not to go. Even Jorah clocks her reaction to Jon saying he'll go. The goodbye on Dragonstone, she's clearly worried and Jon is all business with his good luck speech and this time Tyrion clocks her forlorn look when he leaves. Then you have the conversation between her and Tyrion, he picks up immediately that she wishes "this Jon Snow" loved her. And her half assed dismissal when he points out that Jon does have feelings for her.

There might have been other factors in why she went but 99% of the reason was because of Jon.

[madam magpie]

24 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

True but you have to look at all the scenes. The difference in reactions between when Jorah says he'll go North and when Jon does, she was doing everything possible for him not to go. Even Jorah clocks her reaction to Jon saying he'll go. The goodbye on Dragonstone, she's clearly worried and Jon is all business with his good luck speech and this time Tyrion clocks her forlorn look when he leaves. Then you have the conversation between her and Tyrion, he picks up immediately that she wishes "this Jon Snow" loved her. And her half assed dismissal when he points out that Jon does have feelings for her.

There might have been other factors in why she went but 99% of the reason was because of Jon.

I disagree. Not about her feelings for Jon; she's very obviously in love with him. But I think she'd have gone even if he hadn't been with them.

Sure, her reactions were different. But her feelings for them all are different too. I don't think that her reacting differently to different men changes anything. Plus, when it came down to it, she made another excellent and extraordinarily difficult strategic decision and left Jon behind. She was clearly gutted by that, but she assessed the danger and knew it had to be done, despite how she felt about him. She got Jorah out, though...

Edited September 2, 2017 by madam magpie

[Mabinogia]

19 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Not about her feelings for Jon; she's very obviously in love with him. But I think she'd have gone even if he hadn't been with them.

I agree. Dany is not a passive leader who wants to sit back and push little statues around a big map. She is a person of action and I think she's been itching to get out there and DO something.

That's why I think that, even if she gets the Iron Throne, she won't sit on it long. I can't see her being satisfied doing courtly things, holding small council meetings and hosting banquets. She may think that's what she wants, but she's been changed too much by the life she has led to be content just sitting around watching other people do the real work. She has become a conqueror. She has become a fighter of justice and freedom. She'll find some other injustice to fight once she has broken the wheel and leave someone else to do the maintenance. 

[Blonde Gator]

2 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I agree. Dany is not a passive leader who wants to sit back and push little statues around a big map. She is a person of action and I think she's been itching to get out there and DO something.

That's why I think that, even if she gets the Iron Throne, she won't sit on it long. I can't see her being satisfied doing courtly things, holding small council meetings and hosting banquets. She may think that's what she wants, but she's been changed too much by the life she has led to be content just sitting around watching other people do the real work. She has become a conqueror. She has become a fighter of justice and freedom. She'll find some other injustice to fight once she has broken the wheel and leave someone else to do the maintenance. 

Daario:  You're not a ruler, you're a conqueror.

Your conclusion is a very very real possibility, IMO.  There's much more injustice on Planetos than in Westeros.  Slavery is rampant in Essos.  Dany may have much bigger fish to fry, if the Great War can be won.

[GrailKing]

On 8/30/2017 at 0:54 PM, taurusrose said:

ETA: The only people suggesting that she should be QiTN were Royce from the Vale and that weasel Glover. Both were shown whispering with LF who was using them to stoke Sansa's resentment. The majority of the lords were not present and there is no reason (yet) to believe they would turncoat and dance to LF's tune. If LF had lived and succeeded, even if Sansa somehow managed to betray Jon, gain all of the north's support and be named queen, she would only be a puppet.  LF would be the one calling the shots.

I still think, Royce was in her circle, and Glover she didn't trust, and LF was using them to stoke Arya's mistrust of Sansa.

Well he's dead, so now we need to see how GRRM writes it.

I hope I'm still alive; as we are in the same age group.

[GrailKing]

On 8/30/2017 at 2:04 PM, madam magpie said:

I agree with all of this. I'll freely admit that Dany (and Sansa) is my favorite, so I pay a lot of attention to her. And I definitely think her feelings for Jon are a game changer for her, and a huge surprise, which make the reveal of their actual relationship in the moment this is all coming together for her more tragic. She's fallen hard for him for all the reasons you mention, and I expect her to get pregnant. Not to mention the whole "the Iron Throne isn't technically her birthright anymore" thing. I'm expecting a lot of emotional struggle for her next season, and I think that's primarily what this scene was meant to set up. 

Kit Harrington's ass and Emilia looking lovely are very nice as well. ?

My wife asked me to pause on Jon's ass. :+ {

[madam magpie]

42 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I agree. Dany is not a passive leader who wants to sit back and push little statues around a big map. She is a person of action and I think she's been itching to get out there and DO something.

That's why I think that, even if she gets the Iron Throne, she won't sit on it long. I can't see her being satisfied doing courtly things, holding small council meetings and hosting banquets. She may think that's what she wants, but she's been changed too much by the life she has led to be content just sitting around watching other people do the real work. She has become a conqueror. She has become a fighter of justice and freedom. She'll find some other injustice to fight once she has broken the wheel and leave someone else to do the maintenance. 

Ohhhhhh, I think you're right about what kind of person she is, and I wish this would happen! But I don't think there's any way Dany ever sits on the Iron Throne. I'll be (very happily!) shocked if she wins, but I've been expecting her to die at the end for a few seasons now. After her (awesome, badass, fantastic!) speech when she met Jon, I felt REALLY sure, and now that we know she's not even the rightful heir, I feel really, really sure. I just can't believe this entire story will be her marching to victory from beginning to end. I expect her to die (maybe in childbirth, maybe in battle), for Jon to step up after initially renouncing the throne, and for their kid to be the monarch that brings a promise of a better future. (This as-yet imaginary baby better be a girl or else!)

30 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

My wife asked me to pause on Jon's ass. :+ {

Always the right decision.

Edited September 2, 2017 by madam magpie

[Wulfsige]

If Winterfell had telephone service—

Sansa: “Hello?...Hi, Jon. Good of you to call! Haven’t heard from you for a while...oh, we’re fine. Busy with inventory. Good harvest of rutabagas but not a great year for cabbage. We’re running low on barrels of sheep dip and I need to get more firewood in before winter. Had the locks replaced on all the chambers...but how are you? How was King’s Landing - hey, there’s a rumour going round that Cersai is knocked up—by her brother!...yeah, you said it, ‘ewww-ewww-blech-yee-uck’ doesn’t even begin to cover it, ha ha ha, what a skank! I hope it’s a three-headed something...anyway—what’s new with you?...You’re getting married!?...wow, um...to Danny??...I didn’t realize Cersai had legalized gay marriages...oh, okay, not Danny—Dany! as in ‘girl’, okay...just a sec here, Bran is trying to get my attention...eh?...Bran says your mother was Aunt Lyanna...the hell!?...Father impregnated his sister!!?...NOOO! GAAWWD! NOOOO!....oh...no?...Bran says Father wasn’t your father...that’s better, whew! Had me going for a second there, hah...Bran says your father was the son of the Mad King, the guy who slaughtered Grandfather and Uncle Brandon...I wonder though, I need to think about this, wouldn’t that mean you’re heir to the Iron Throne...what’s that? Jon? Jon? Are you there? Are you okay? It sounded like you were trying to strangle yourself there for a sec. Jon? Jon?...don’t hang up...”

Later:

Sansa: “Hello? Jon! I was worried when the line went dead...What? Wait. What? I see. I think. What? Your bride-to-be is your AUNT?...I can’t even...but, okay, look—just break it off, no one needs to know and we’ll all pretend it never...you can’t move on?...you’re honour-bound to marry her—because she’s pregnant? Well, isn’t that just super @#$%*...okay, tell me a bit about her…yeah, yeah, speed that up, you lost me after ‘Great Goddess of the Great Grasshopper-Infested Grass Seas’ and ‘Special Anointed Chosen Saviour of the World’...she’s ‘Mother of Dragons’? (mutters) Must have an asbestos hoo-ha...nothing! I didn’t say anything!...I suppose at least this can’t get any worse, right...okay, so...you want your BFF Sam to give the toast at your wedding?...was that ‘give the toast’ or ‘be the toast’?...”

[Blonde Gator]

2 minutes ago, Wulfsige said:

If Winterfell had telephone service—

Sansa: “Hello?...Hi, Jon. Good of you to call! Haven’t heard from you for a while...oh, we’re fine. Busy with inventory. Good harvest of rutabagas but not a great year for cabbage. We’re running low on barrels of sheep dip and I need to get more firewood in before winter. Had the locks replaced on all the chambers...but how are you? How was King’s Landing - hey, there’s a rumour going round that Cersai is knocked up—by her brother!...yeah, you said it, ‘ewww-ewww-blech-yee-uck’ doesn’t even begin to cover it, ha ha ha, what a skank! I hope it’s a three-headed something...anyway—what’s new with you?...You’re getting married!?...wow, um...to Danny??...I didn’t realize Cersai had legalized gay marriages...oh, okay, not Danny—Dany! as in ‘girl’, okay...just a sec here, Bran is trying to get my attention...eh?...Bran says your mother was Aunt Lyanna...the hell!?...Father impregnated his sister!!?...NOOO! GAAWWD! NOOOO!....oh...no?...Bran says Father wasn’t your father...that’s better, whew! Had me going for a second there, hah...Bran says your father was the son of the Mad King, the guy who slaughtered Grandfather and Uncle Brandon...I wonder though, I need to think about this, wouldn’t that mean you’re heir to the Iron Throne...what’s that? Jon? Jon? Are you there? Are you okay? It sounded like you were trying to strangle yourself there for a sec. Jon? Jon?...don’t hang up...”

Later:

Sansa: “Hello? Jon! I was worried when the line went dead...What? Wait. What? I see. I think. What? Your bride-to-be is your AUNT?...I can’t even...but, okay, look—just break it off, no one needs to know and we’ll all pretend it never...you can’t move on?...you’re honour-bound to marry her—because she’s pregnant? Well, isn’t that just super @#$%*...okay, tell me a bit about her…yeah, yeah, speed that up, you lost me after ‘Great Goddess of the Great Grasshopper-Infested Grass Seas’ and ‘Special Anointed Chosen Saviour of the World’...she’s ‘Mother of Dragons’? (mutters) Must have an asbestos hoo-ha...nothing! I didn’t say anything!...I suppose at least this can’t get any worse, right...okay, so...you want your BFF Sam to give the toast at your wedding?...was that ‘give the toast’ or ‘be the toast’?...”

[Katsullivan]

Nothing sends my sides splitting with laughter harder than a misogynistic tirade couched as humour.

28 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I agree. Dany is not a passive leader who wants to sit back and push little statues around a big map. She is a person of action and I think she's been itching to get out there and DO something.

That's why I think that, even if she gets the Iron Throne, she won't sit on it long. I can't see her being satisfied doing courtly things, holding small council meetings and hosting banquets. She may think that's what she wants, but she's been changed too much by the life she has led to be content just sitting around watching other people do the real work. She has become a conqueror. She has become a fighter of justice and freedom. She'll find some other injustice to fight once she has broken the wheel and leave someone else to do the maintenance. 

I think this will be a more fitting end than the "Dany dies giving birth to Jon's pure-blood Targaryen son" speculation that seems to be so popular these days. 

[GraceK]

13 minutes ago, Wulfsige said:

If Winterfell had telephone service—

Sansa: “Hello?...Hi, Jon. Good of you to call! Haven’t heard from you for a while...oh, we’re fine. Busy with inventory. Good harvest of rutabagas but not a great year for cabbage. We’re running low on barrels of sheep dip and I need to get more firewood in before winter. Had the locks replaced on all the chambers...but how are you? How was King’s Landing - hey, there’s a rumour going round that Cersai is knocked up—by her brother!...yeah, you said it, ‘ewww-ewww-blech-yee-uck’ doesn’t even begin to cover it, ha ha ha, what a skank! I hope it’s a three-headed something...anyway—what’s new with you?...You’re getting married!?...wow, um...to Danny??...I didn’t realize Cersai had legalized gay marriages...oh, okay, not Danny—Dany! as in ‘girl’, okay...just a sec here, Bran is trying to get my attention...eh?...Bran says your mother was Aunt Lyanna...the hell!?...Father impregnated his sister!!?...NOOO! GAAWWD! NOOOO!....oh...no?...Bran says Father wasn’t your father...that’s better, whew! Had me going for a second there, hah...Bran says your father was the son of the Mad King, the guy who slaughtered Grandfather and Uncle Brandon...I wonder though, I need to think about this, wouldn’t that mean you’re heir to the Iron Throne...what’s that? Jon? Jon? Are you there? Are you okay? It sounded like you were trying to strangle yourself there for a sec. Jon? Jon?...don’t hang up...”

Later:

Sansa: “Hello? Jon! I was worried when the line went dead...What? Wait. What? I see. I think. What? Your bride-to-be is your AUNT?...I can’t even...but, okay, look—just break it off, no one needs to know and we’ll all pretend it never...you can’t move on?...you’re honour-bound to marry her—because she’s pregnant? Well, isn’t that just super @#$%*...okay, tell me a bit about her…yeah, yeah, speed that up, you lost me after ‘Great Goddess of the Great Grasshopper-Infested Grass Seas’ and ‘Special Anointed Chosen Saviour of the World’...she’s ‘Mother of Dragons’? (mutters) Must have an asbestos hoo-ha...nothing! I didn’t say anything!...I suppose at least this can’t get any worse, right...okay, so...you want your BFF Sam to give the toast at your wedding?...was that ‘give the toast’ or ‘be the toast’?...”

This is the best thing I have read :)

[GrailKing]

On 8/30/2017 at 2:10 PM, mac123x said:

I agree that cutting the scene helped, but Sansa still looks like a dunderhead.  From S6E10, Sansa says to Jon "Only a fool would trust Littlefinger".  She needed to take her own advice.

What makes you think she isn't taking her own advice?

It's clear that IHW was putting his spin on it ( and not a good or logical one at that )

If that last seen wasn't a ruse then everything the directors, writers and show runners gave us from season 4 on was utter BS.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/game-of-thrones-finale-director-no-romantic-jealousy-in-tyrions-reaction-to-jon-and-danys-boat-sex?source=TDB&via=FB_Page

The desperation on Littlefinger’s face as he realizes Sansa and Arya have double-crossed him is so satisfying. How far back did they know what Littlefinger was up to? Are we meant to assume that the threats and rivalry we saw in earlier episodes was all part of the ruse?

No, for me, it doesn’t mean that at all. I really believe that some of Littlefinger’s manipulations of Sansa were working on her, and that there was a question in her mind at some point of what Arya’s motives really were and whether she could trust her. And I think there was a feeling from Arya that Sansa saw herself as Lady of Winterfell and that she didn’t deserve to have that title. Littlefinger’s strength is that he finds things that are real and finds a way to manipulate the situation around those things. And so I do think that there is a germ of truth in all of that. Personally, I don’t think that they were putting on this ruse for the entire season. I feel like what probably happened is that Bran got involved and he was able to answer a lot of questions and fill in a lot of gaps the both of them had, and later when we see him in the scene with Littlefinger, all the stuff that Bran is saying in that scene is not news to Sansa and Arya. So clearly they’ve been apprised of all this stuff before. But exactly when that happened is the question. Like how early did they know all this and how early did they decide to turn the tables on Littlefinger? That’s a bit of a question. But I feel that there was a journey for both of those characters through all of that.

 

As I say Sansa picked up on LF plan to use Brienne's honor to break the sister's apart, all those arguments were as real as the threat from the WW, just closer to home it was a trust issue on both's part, Sansa's because of Arya vitrol words to her and Arya's wrong memories and lack of info from KL.

It wasn't until the end of Arya's bedroom scene that it clicked Arya trusted Sansa enough to give her the dagger and turn her back to leave and Sansa got what she needed to feel she could trust Arya, but her fears of Arya was still valid, so she either returned the dagger directly to Arya and they both went to Bran, and between what Sansa and Arya know Brand filled in the blanks.

Or Sansa went directly to Bran returned the dagger and asked WTF wrong with Arya and Bran talked to Arya privately, with the results above.

That last LF lesson and Q & A was a ruse, it's the only way that episode made sense.

Sansa's not forgetting, the scroll, or Her and Tyrion being framed, Dontos's death, Lysa's death plus her ramblings ( well Bran may remind her of that as she was in shock ), being sold to the Boltons, or Molestown, or Rickon, or the Godswood scene, or her remarks to him which just shows how annoyed she is that she still needs him for the Vale army. and she had to get it right that contemplating scene was her going over everything when she puts him on trial.

Arya's words are support and telling her she can do it.

If it wasn't a ruse why would Sansa allow her sister in with a sword and dagger? she wouldn't; all this would be a lie, bad story telling and lack of continuity.

[MadMouse]

1 hour ago, madam magpie said:

I disagree. Not about her feelings for Jon; she's very obviously in love with him. But I think she'd have gone even if he hadn't been with them.

Sure, her reactions were different. But her feelings for them all are different too. I don't think that her reacting differently to different men changes anything. Plus, when it came down to it, she made another excellent and extraordinarily difficult strategic decision and left Jon behind. She was clearly gutted by that, but she assessed the danger and knew it had to be done, despite how she felt about him. She got Jorah out, though...

I think she could have been talked out of it if Jon hadn't been there. Of course if Jon hadn't been there he would have been advising her to go. Dany going North for Jon doesn't make her a bad person, it makes her human and a far better character for it. Noble heroes who don't have desires or act selfishly once in awhile are boring and not something people can relate to. The conflicted nature of people is at the heart of the series.

[madam magpie]

9 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

I think she could have been talked out of it if Jon hadn't been there. Of course if Jon hadn't been there he would have been advising her to go. Dany going North for Jon doesn't make her a bad person, it makes her human and a far better character for it. Noble heroes who don't have desires or act selfishly once in awhile are boring and not something people can relate to. The conflicted nature of people is at the heart of the series.

I agree with the last bit, but don't see how her going North alone to save multiple people while ultimately leaving behind the guy she's actually into is an example of this. It looked pretty selfless to me. She was willing to let him die to save everyone else, including all the people in the kingdom looking to her as their leader. On the other hand, much as I think she/Jon were right about the fact that it would look better for them to arrive at Winterfell together, rather than her atop a dragon, I'd say that was her more selfish choice. She wanted the time on the boat with him; the war could wait a little bit.

Edited September 2, 2017 by madam magpie

[Hecate7]

On 8/31/2017 at 1:35 PM, stillshimpy said:

There's a lot of room between better and perfect for her to be better without being perfect.  I don't think,"Maybe give it a night's thought before you burn people alive like your dad, who you know was wrong in his actions, used to do."  That would be better and is not an unreasonable standard.  

That would be okay if she had a place to store prisoners, and guards. But she's out in the open and she has to make people bend the knee before someone comes back with reinforcements.

[WindyNights]

8 hours ago, doram said:

 

That's a far cry from the original implication that Dany explicitly ordered her Unsullied to target and murder 13-year-old boys (or girls). Also, some context is needed here. In  this is a world where 12-year-old (in the books) Joffrey Baratheon was crowned King in his own rights, without a Regent, and - even in the show - Lyanna Mormont is a liege lord and treated with the respect of that status, and 10-year-old Olly is considered old enough to join the Night's Watch and merit an execution. 

Basically, Dany was asking for who are considered children in this world to be spared. The show makes it clearer when she tells the Unsullied to "harm no child" when sacking Astapor. 

 

John Bradley (actor who plays Sam) has this to say:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/arts/television/game-of-thrones-samwell-tarly-interview.html

Um, actually Joffrey didn't have his own rights at 12. You're getting the show confused with the books. Cersei was Queen-Regent until Joffrey attains the age of 16.  That's why Ned was made Lord-Protector of the Realm by Robert.

 

In Westeros, you're not an adult until you're 16 so if we apply those rules to Essos then Daenerys was killing children too.

 

You're right that it's implicit rather than explicit but you're going to end up with a lot of dead 12 year olds still putting their deaths squarely on Daenerys' shoulders.

Edited September 2, 2017 by WindyNights

[Mabinogia]

19 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

She wanted the time on the boat with him; the war could wait a little bit.

I, for one, think she made the right choice. Of course, it meant I got to see the glory that is Jon's ass, so I might be a tad biased. 

I would like to go on record as saying the worst thing the showrunners have ever done is made that sex scene so damned short. There was so much pretty in such a quick moment. I can handle more, show, really I can!