S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[GraceK]

I think we are giving way to much credit to the show north. There last King was butchered and betrayed by the Boltons, most of the families were also murdered, and they did nothing. Roose Bolton gave up the Starks and was given Warden of the North in exchange. Where was the outrage by the North for losing their independence then? Then Ramsey took over and killed his father doing it, and not a peep from them either. They werent screaming for independence then from their sadistic overlord and King Tommen. In fact, wasn't it only  the Mormonts who were willing to side with Jon in the BOTB? The rest of the north seemed to side with Ramsay,,,,I remember Umber screaming "for the North!" Before fighting against Jons forces. They even gave up the last trueborn Stark  to Ramsey if I remember correctly, cause Jon had the audacity to let Wildings in. They only proclaimed Jon KITN when him and Sansa defeated  the Boltons without their help...they were pretty cowardly up until then. A ten year old shamed them. So this idea that they care so much about honor and hate the Targaryens sooo much that they will refuse help and depose Jon for aligning themselves with dragons seems ridiculous to me.  They seem to align themselves with whoever is strongest.

 

at least Jon Is fighting for their best interests, and trying to save humankind.

Edited September 7, 2017 by GraceK

[Oscirus]

Thing is that the Northern lords are really flexible and the idea could've been sold to them alot easier then some think.

1. Sansa is really scared of Cersei. Sell the get rid of Cersei factor and she'd go along. The rest of the Starks are already there.

2. Vale dude owes Sansa a lot for getting him out from under, he'd likely go along with her play.

3. Lyanna would begrudgingly go along with whatever Jon says.

4. As for the rest between the Rhaegar reveal and the combined efforts of Tyrion and Davos, this North could've easily been swayed. Especially after Dany helps them win the war against the white walkers.

[screamin]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

I think we are giving way to much credit to the show north. There last King was butchered and betrayed by the Boltons, most of the families were also murdered, and they did nothing. Roose Bolton gave up the Starks and was given Warden of the North in exchange. Where was the outrage by the North for losing their independence then? Then Ramsey took over and killed his father doing it, and not a peep from them either. They werent screaming for independence then from their sadistic overlord and King Tommen. In fact, wasn't it only  the Mormonts who were willing to side with Jon in the BOTB? The rest of the north seemed to side with Ramsay,,,,I remember Umber screaming "for the North!" Before fighting against Jons forces. They even gave up the last trueborn Stark  to Ramsey if I remember correctly, cause Jon had the audacity to let Wildings in. They only proclaimed Jon KITN when him and Sansa defeated  the Boltons without their help...they were pretty cowardly up until then. A ten year old shamed them. So this idea that they care so much about honor and hate the Targaryens sooo much that they will refuse help and depose Jon for aligning themselves with dragons seems ridiculous to me. 

It's not so much about honor at this point as bare survival. An absolute ruler can commandeer their food supplies for safekeeping under the promise of returning them when needed, and a bad ruler can then slam the gates of Winterfell and feed his or her army in a nice comfortable siege while his subjects stand outside hopelessly and watch their women and children starve. If Jon wants the North to trust him that this won't happen to them, he needs to convince them that A) he's a good ruler and won't do this to them, AND B) Dany, who he's handed over the rule of the North to, is ALSO a good ruler and won't do this to them. If Jon brushes off their questions as unimportant instead of answering them, he can't prove A to them, much less B. He has answers to their questions about Dany's character that could reassure them a good deal, IF he would deign to share them. What reason could justify him deciding him not to bother?

If he thinks maintaining his people's trust and faith is unimportant and he can assume he'll always have their support without the responsibility for answering their questions (even if they're good questions), then I feel sympathy for those desperate lords who hear that a Dothraki and Lannister army is coming. If they receive NO reassurance that these armies WILL be different from every other army that's been massed in Westeros over the past few years and that Dany ISN'T a tyrant who will take their food and then screw them, I feel for those who desperately calculate to themselves, "Hmm, I have almost enough food to survive the winter, maybe enough for the wife and kids if me and grandpa and the other old folk go 'off for a hunt' toward the end and don't come back, like in the old stories. Now the new king is demanding that I send ALL my stores to WF and he's bringing an army of Lannisters like the Lannisters I fought down south - and I know how they operate. He's also bringing the dragon queen, her dragons and her Dothraki, whom I've heard bad stuff about...and he says they're our allies now, but he ain't said why I should believe that the dragon lady ain't got a crossbow pointing at his head making him say that. Should I just hand over all my food and trust the dragon lady not to just feed it to her armies, and keep my soldiers near Winterfell instead of protecting my own home against the Lannisters and Dothraki?"

If Jon could avoid them concluding "Fuck it, I'm keeping my food and closing my gates," by reassuring them of the reasons why he thinks Dany is a trustworthy ally, he has a responsibility as their king to do so.
From Confucius: 

Quote

 

The Master said, ‘The requisites of government are that there be sufficiency of food, sufficiency of military equipment, and the confidence of the people in their ruler.’

“Tsze-kung said, ‘If it cannot be helped and one of these must be dispensed with, which of the three should be forgone first?’ ‘The military equipment,’ said the Master.

“Tsze-kung again asked, ‘If it cannot be helped and one of the remaining two must be dispensed with, which of them should be forgone?’ The Master answered, ‘Part with the food. From of old death has been the lot of all men; but if the people have not confidence in their rulers, there is no stability for the state.’” (Analects, bk. xii., c. vii.)

 

So basically it isn't enough for Jon as a leader to just triumph on the battlefield; he has to make an effort to maintain the faith of his people in their leader even when he's NOT on the battlefield. And yes, the people can be fickle and fearful and must be convinced over and over; it's still his job as ruler to do it, and if he's left that job in Sansa's hands, he needs to give her the info to do it properly. To refuse to do it is neglectful as a ruler, and while it may be satisfying for him to blame his subordinates when they fail even if he's set them up to fail, it wouldn't exactly make him a good ruler, either.

Edited September 7, 2017 by screamin

[madam magpie]

I don't mind if the Northerners are initially skeptical of Dany or if Sansa is initially annoyed with Jon. To them, Dany is an outsider, and without the benefit of watching the months Jon/Dany spent getting to know each other, I can see why they'd be wary. However! It should become obvious very quickly who/what Dany is. She handed over all the dragonglass, requiring nothing in return. She personally came to the rescue of Jon and co. beyond the wall at great cost to herself. She attended the parley with Cersei as Jon's clear ally. She sat outside King's Landing so as not to slaughter people. She launched an abolition campaign across Essos and put together a volunteer army. Her repuation and actions should speak for themselves, and Jon's recommendation should seal the deal. Yes, some Northern lords will probably be sexist assholes who write off her accomplishments and insist that Jon is blind and vouching for her just because they're sleeping together. Hopefully the dragons and armies will shut those guys up. But people like Sansa and Lyanna Mormont (and Sam and Arya) should come around quickly.

Edited September 7, 2017 by madam magpie

[domina89]

51 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

So do you expect all the Northern Lords to say, "Great job, Jon!  Thank you for surrendering our independence and putting us under the rule of the Mad King's daughter and her armies of Eunuchs and Dothraki savages!  You are the best KITN, evah!!!!" :)

I'm not saying what Jon did was wrong,  But, I think it would be unrealistic not to expect pushback (if not outright rebellion) from at least some of the Northern Lords.

Again, it is about perspective.  From Jon's perspective, he is doing what is best for the North (and all of Westeros), and he is probably right.  From some of the Northern Lord's perspectives, he could look like a weakling, coward or traitor.  

What interests me the most is how the Northern Lords will react when they learn Jon is actually a Targaryen.  Despite how he handled/mishandled (depending on your interpretation) the kneeling, there was no way Jon was keeping that KITN title for very long anyway.  Once they find out he's a Targ, I think they will try to name someone else as King/Queen- especially if they are already angry over the kneeling.  I can't see the Northern Lords still supporting him once they find out who he is-unless Dany and/or Arya terrifies them into doing so.  Of course, it would be in their best interest to support him because even if he only becomes a consort to Dany and not King of the Seven Kingdoms outright, the North would still get preferential treatment if the monarchy remains.  That's assuming the North will still exist, of course.  Who knows what will happen once the Night King arrives?  Maybe no one will be alive and none of it will matter.  I still think once Jon and Dany prove their worth to the realm, everyone will be more agreeable to the idea of them as rulers/leaders, but I'm probably getting ahead of myself.

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, domina89 said:

What interests me the most is how the Northern Lords will react when they learn Jon is actually a Targaryen.  Despite how he handled/mishandled (depending on your interpretation) the kneeling, there was no way Jon was keeping that KITN title for very long anyway.  Once they find out he's a Targ, I think they will try to name someone else as King/Queen- especially if they are already angry over the kneeling.  I can't see the Northern Lords still supporting him once they find out who he is-unless Dany and/or Arya terrifies them into doing so.  Of course, it would be in their best interest to support him because even if he only becomes a consort to Dany and not King of the Seven Kingdoms outright, the North would still get preferential treatment if the monarchy remains.  That's assuming the North will still exist, of course.  Who knows what will happen once the Night King arrives?  Maybe no one will be alive and none of it will matter.  I still think once Jon and Dany prove their worth to the realm, everyone will be more agreeable to the idea of them as rulers/leaders, but I'm probably getting ahead of myself.

I would think that when they find out Jon is a Targaryen, the Northern Lords would push for him to take the Iron Throne and be King of the Seven Kingdoms. 

1) He is the rightful heir by birth.

2) He is a Stark on his mother's side.

3) He was raised in the North as the son of Ned Stark.

4) He is currently their King.  

It is sort of ironic that Jon, by bending the knee and pledging the North to House Targaryen, apparently demoted himself from King in the North to Warden of the North, but really promoted himself to King of the Seven Kingdoms.  

Edited September 7, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[Oscirus]

Jon being the rightful heir adds a new unfortunate wrinkle in that it ironically actually becomes a game of thrones.  as I could see both sides followers making moves to ensure that their side gets the throne. So while Dany and Jon might not be bothered by the news. Others that could be affected might.

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I would think that when they find out Jon is a Targaryen, the Northern Lords would push for him to take the Iron Throne and be King of the Seven Kingdoms. 

Is there any possibility that Sam and Bran don't even tell Jon about his real birthright?  Like maybe they find out how he and Dany are an item, and don't want to mess up their good time?  Especially if they perhaps plan to marry, and Jon would have a part in the Iron Throne anyway? 

And if they do tell Jon, do they necessarily tell the entire North?  Jon seems like a fairly humble type, would he want this news blasted all over Westeros?

[MadMouse]

All those Northern and Vale lords who screeched about not trusting the Targaryens or the mad king's daughter I'm sure will be the first in line shoving their daughters or granddaughters into Jons bed so they can pop out some more Dragonspawn.

[screamin]

38 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Is there any possibility that Sam and Bran don't even tell Jon about his real birthright?  Like maybe they find out how he and Dany are an item, and don't want to mess up their good time?  Especially if they perhaps plan to marry, and Jon would have a part in the Iron Throne anyway? 

And if they do tell Jon, do they necessarily tell the entire North?  Jon seems like a fairly humble type, would he want this news blasted all over Westeros?

While they might feel they need to tell Jon, I don't think Jon would WANT the story spread around, just like he downplayed and minimized his killing and resurrection. He knows that it's not that likely to be believed, will cause much strife, and he certainly wouldn't WANT to displace Dany in her claim on the throne. He'd be likely to want it hushed up as causing more problems than it solves.

[Pogojoco]

I would take the dragonglass out of the list of "What Dany gave the North" as it was completely useless to her. When Tyrion brings it up to her they both shrug and are like "whatever." It's not a sacrifice if it doesn't cost the person anything. The armies, yes. The dragons, yes. Dragonglass, eh. 

It's actually a bit silly that Sam had to think of it this season at all. They've known dragonglass kills walkers and (in the show) wights since the third season and that Stannis has a bunch at Dragonstone since the fifth,. Dragonstone which is standing completely unoccupied until the start of this one. Jon, as Lord Commander, should've sent someone to go investigate. Jon as Lord Commander is a lot more proactively looking at ways to survive the winter and fight this war in the book. He's constantly evaluating and re-evaluating his decisions. I guess it's the benefit of being inside Jon's head in the book. Book Jon is a lot more pragmatic in the book. Book Jon lies a hell of a lot more, too. 

I'm still not quite over the "I can't lie" speech he gave Dany and Tyrion. It's one of the issues I had this season. I don't like it when characters  have to behave in a certain way that goes against their previous behaviour/personality  just to advance the plot. The plot requires Cersei to storm off in a huff, so let's have Jon do this.

Jon bringing up Ned when he says he can't made me think they did that to underline the massive lie Ned told for nearly two decades that they revealed in this episode. I suspect one of the big things the Stark kids are going to have to come to terms with is that their father, almost universally known as honest to a fault, lied.

I know it's in the book this way and Ned never thought it would be the last time he 'd see Jon, but he really should've told the kid the deal before sending him out into the world. Even if it was still a secret Jon had to keep. For all intents and purposes, Jon is a man when he leaves to join the Night's Watch. He should know his history and have the opportunity to learn about his mother from someone who loved her very much.  I guess it's part of the tragedy of Ned Stark. 

And I can't imagine Sam and Bran are going to keep this to themselves. It'd be cruel. Tell Jon and let him decide what he wants to do with that information. 

Had Jon told anyone else that he'd bent the knee to Dany or was that speech the first time any of the rest of them knew? Davos makes a face that I'm not sure how to read- is he dismayed because Jon basically wrecked the whole point of the parley or is he dismayed that Jon bent the knee, either at all or without consulting him?  

 

I'm also a little curious about Sansa's reaction to Jon's raven saying he bent the knee. She's annoyed because he didn't  consult her- I was wondering at first if she thought he shouldn't have, but I'm thinking more that she's been working her ass off trying to keep the Northern Lords and the Vale Lords to stay loyal to him as King in the North and he just decides he's not going to be that anymore. 

Edited September 8, 2017 by Pogojoco

[anamika]

18 hours ago, screamin said:

I get how Jon got to this point, and I do think Jon was totally justified in making that alliance with Dany. (The whole 'get a wight to convince Cersei,' though, I have problems with.) Trouble is, it would be really helpful to Sansa in her presentation of the facts to the lords to learn something of Jon's reasons and justifications for the choices he's making.

To answer this, we need to establish first if Sansa is an incompetent politician who needs step by step instructions from Jon on how to handle the Northern Lords or if she is supposed to be a savvy politician who can handle these lords by herself. If it’s the former, then I agree - Jon is a moron for leaving her in charge if she can’t even do the most basic of what’s expected of her. Because the facts as presented is pretty straightforward - an army of the dead is marching on the north and the south is marching north to help them. Now they can prepare for those forces coming north or they can sit and squabble over things like Northern independence. When Jon gets North, that's pretty much what he is going to tell them.

18 hours ago, screamin said:

King Jon left the North saying he was going to get dragonglass and to try the get the dragon queen's help. Weeks (months?) later he sends a tiny message back saying he's bent the knee to Dany, given up the crown the Northerners gave him, and is coming to the North with Dany's army, united against the White Walkers

The army of the dead is marching on the North. This is an urgent, grave existential threat that should override all other concerns. Upon being presented with this threat the response to it from various leaders are:

Cersei - The North is first in line to be attacked. I am not going to use my resources to protect them. Have fun!!

Euron - They can’t swim? I am going back to my island and I would suggest that you (Dany) do the same.

Sansa - Jon is pledging to fight for Dany and bend the knee in order to save the North? I need to kick him out and make myself queen.

Dany – I lost my child to this threat. But I am going to put an immediate stop to my quest for the Iron throne, not make any demands on the KITN and use all my resources to protect and save the North.

First, I think we can see from this, who would be the best leader of the seven kingdoms or even the North – a queen who recognizes that it’s not important who rules over what, but that dealing with the army of the dead is what is most important.

Second, we have already established that Jon not letting Sansa know about what he was doing on Dragonstone was a good thing considering that she was letting LF know everything and he would have created more dissension against Jon among the Northern houses.

Third, Jon left Dragonstone to get weapons and allies. This was Jon’s message to Sansa:

Sansa, Cersei Lannister has pledged her forces to our cause as has Daenarys Targaryen. And if we survive this war, I have pledged our forces to Daenerys as the rightful queen of the seven kingdoms. We are both coming to organize the defence of the realm.

Now, the response to this message can either be:

Thank fuck, Jon is coming back with weapons and allies to take on the army of the dead marching on the North.  

OR

Jon bend the knee? Fuck him.

I will leave it up to you to decide which is the better response.

18 hours ago, screamin said:

Like, for example, whether Jon gave up his kingdom of his own free will or at dragonpoint, like Torrhen?

This is so silly. Logic would dictate that since Dany has pledged all her resources towards the protection of the North, Jon has in return bend the knee. This was the negotiation happening in Dragonstone before Dany saw the threat and was willing to help without any demands. 

And again, why is all this important if everyone is coming North to help them?!!!

18 hours ago, screamin said:

Now, maybe you think it's just Sansa's job to convince the lords to do exactly that on no more information than she has...that Jon has no obligation to make her job easier by telling her anything about Dany's incredible acts of generosity that caused him to trust her to the extent he has, so that she might use this information to convince the lords to trust him in turn. And maybe it will be a source of great satisfaction and comfort to Jon and you to be able to blame Sansa for everything if Jon finally makes it North and finds that most of his Northern armies have taken their men and gone home. "I gave you enough information about what I did to fill a whole unrolled cigarette butt about how I knelt to the dragon queen and was coming home with a Lannister army! Any competent regent could have DEDUCED all my reasons why what I did was an absolutely awesome deal and sell that to the lords! You suck!" Maybe it'll warm his heart and yours, but it won't help the North. Which is why I think it might have been better if he'd kept Sansa in the loop here.

What is even the point of Sansa as Lady of Winterfell if she can't make a strong case for why the North needing allies and weapons is more important than things like Northern independence?  Hell Arya and Bran would be able to do it - Jon went south to get allies and weapons. Now Jon is coming back with allies and weapons to defend the North. And since nothing is free and their very survival is at stake, Jon had to bend the knee. And if the Northerners had any sense, they would agree with this.

 Arya and Bran know that Jon would only do what was in the best interests of the North. Sansa meanwhile is angry that Jon did not ask her opinion first. This is the problem that Arya has with Sansa. When the Northerners protest that Jon has been gone too long, Sansa should have forcefully told them that Jon is gone to save their asses and get weapons and allies. Instead Sansa tells them that Jon was doing what he thinks is best ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . When Arya protests, Sansa tells her that the Northern Lords should be handled carefully –  this is a whole load of a BS in the first place considering that Lyanna Mormont often tells these Lords to sit down and shut up and Robb became king by having Greywind bite off two of GreatJon Umber’s fingers. Sansa should be able to do a Lyanna Mormont and get the Lords to see that what Jon did was in the best interests of the North.

18 hours ago, screamin said:

 A related question - how are the armies coming to the North going to act? Are they going to feed themselves the way armies usually do in this universe - commandeering supplies from the country around them - supplies that are already too short for the locals, who are already facing winter starvation?

I like how all these technical questions come up only with regard to Jon and Dany - did Dany inform her armies about the change in plans, how is Jon going to feed all these armies etc.  The show does not consider this information important - we should go ahead and assume that yes, Dany did inform her men and yes, Jon has taken into account the food situation and food is probably being taken north from the south on the ships along with the men and horses. But apparently Jon should have included a detailed  plan on how he intends to feed soldiers in his ravengram because hey, Sansa needs this very important information to convince the Northerners that the army of the dead is the more pressing problem.

But armor and grain storage expert Sansa should be able to answer all these questions right?  If she cannot, then don't worry. Warden of the North, Jon will be there in episode one next season and he will lay out his plans as any competent leader should be able to do.  Or it will not even be brought up like the large unused army sitting in Dorne.

18 hours ago, screamin said:

What did Jon get for the North in return for giving up his kingdom besides the presence of that hungry army, those scary dragons, and those treacherous Lannister forces amidst them that are liable to do who knows what? Did he get a promise of marriage to ensure Dany's continued favor, some promise of eventual compensation for the North, or just the privilege of being the poorest and most war-ruined grateful vassal to Dany when the fighting is over?

What did Jon get for the North in return? What, those armies, dragons and weapons are not enough? How does Sansa propose they defend the North without all those things?

18 hours ago, screamin said:

ALSO engineered him to have facilitated the Night King's invasion to begin with, by making him be the author of a contrived harebrained scheme to convince a totally unreliable and treacherous ally to help them.

I think you are forgetting that Tyrion was the author of the 'contrived harebrained scheme' but considering that Sansa Stark is sitting in the North getting pissed off at Jon bending the knee instead of understanding that defeating the existential threat on her doorstep is more important, I don't blame Tyrion for coming up with the plan. Dany says that seeing it is what convinces her of the threat and now everyone down south knows that this threat is not just a figment of imagination. Jaime is on his way North with his Valyrian steel sword and I am sure his military expertise would be valuable. Cersei being extremely dumb should not be blamed on Tyrion.

18 hours ago, screamin said:

I'm pretty sure that GRRM doesn't intend Jon to be the combo savior/bungler the showrunners have made him.

Actually, I thought Jon came out of this season looking pretty good. He makes some good decisions in the North - not blaming children for the sins of their fathers, unifying the houses against the greater threat, manning the wall with Wildlings, setting men and children to train. He goes south for weapons and allies and he is coming back with the dragon queen, her two dragons, dragon glass weapons, men (Dothraki, Unsullied), good advisors and strategists - Varys, Jorah, amazing fighters - the Hound, Gendry, Beric. He judged rightly that Tyrion would help him and Tyrion did. His and Dany's negotiations were well done - both unwilling to give in and then both recognizing what the right thing to do was and doing it. He made the right decision to uphold his word at the Dragonpit. Dany seems to hold his opinions in some regard as she asks for and then takes his advice with regard to burning down the keep. All in all, he accomplished what he set out to do - convince the rest of Westeros of the impending threat and get people and weapons to fight against it.

Edited September 8, 2017 by anamika

[bardgal]

17 hours ago, screamin said:

King Jon left the North saying he was going to get dragonglass and to try the get the dragon queen's help. Weeks (months?) later he sends a tiny message back saying he's bent the knee to Dany, given up the crown the Northerners gave him, and is coming to the North with Dany's army, united against the White Walkers - oh, and just by the way, he's also bringing a Lannister army, the soldiers of the people who murdered his father and started the war - into the North itself, where no Lannister army has ever managed to get even in the worst of the War of the Five Kings - but don't worry, they're allies now! That is a whole HELL of a lot of mission creep to drop on the North.

Ok, I just went back and watched it for the ... I've lost count because nerd. You're inventing things that didn't happen.

All Bran said was, "He's on his way back with Daenerys Targaryen."

That's ALL we know (well, aside from his true ID.) And maybe that's all it said. Other than probably, Call the Banners, we're marching north."

Seriously. Priorities. The politics can wait. Survival is Job #1, or that Bran said anything - even if he's seen it. 

(I have to say that scene always cracks me up:

SAM: What happened to you beyond the Wall?

BRAN: I became the Three Eyed Raven.

SAM: Oh. I don't know what that means.

BRAN: I can see things that happened in the past. Things happening now all over the world. WHY DID YOU COME TO WINTERFELL? (lolwut.. you just said...)

****

You've no proof anything else was in the letter. No bending the knee, no Lannister army, etc.

So, I'm going to assume something different than you did.

I'm going to assume Jon would never give that level of information A) Not directly in person, and B) Put that information in a raven scroll. 

It will be fun to see how this plays out next season.... which seems a painfully long time away. /cry

Edited September 8, 2017 by bardgal

[WindyNights]

14 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I would think that when they find out Jon is a Targaryen, the Northern Lords would push for him to take the Iron Throne and be King of the Seven Kingdoms. 

1) He is the rightful heir by birth.

2) He is a Stark on his mother's side.

3) He was raised in the North as the son of Ned Stark.

4) He is currently their King.  

It is sort of ironic that Jon, by bending the knee and pledging the North to House Targaryen, apparently demoted himself from King in the North to Warden of the North, but really promoted himself to King of the Seven Kingdoms.  

But the North doesn't actually want to be part of the 7 Kingdoms anymore. Jon's claim to the throne does nothing for them. They'll get more benefits being independent rather staying together. 

Jon's currently no longer their king. He threw his kingship away. He's either now LP of the North or nothing. 

Jon's kingship was partially based on descent from Ned Stark. 

They don't like Targaryens and are currently pissed at him.

[Bryce Lynch]

9 hours ago, doram said:

So... By your arguments, The North hate Dany because she's Targaryen so why would they be willing to give Jon a pass? And I'm not sure how supporting a Targaryen King to be ruler of the Seven Kingdoms helps with Northern Independence. 

 

OMG, thank you. The "Northern Independence" is a fabrication, not supported by anything we've seen on the show and will just be contrived misogynistic nonsense if it happens.

The North would distrust Dany not necessarily hate her.

You don't see even a tiny difference between a full Targaryen, raised in Essos with an army of Eunuchs and Savages, and a man whose mother was a Stark of Winterfell and who was raised by the Lord of Winterfell, whose loyalty is to the North and who only just found out he is half Tarygaryen?

They would probably see Jon on the Iron Throne as better than Northern Independence.  It would be Northern Supremacy.

You see the same idea in modern America.  When there is a Democrat president, you get idle rumblings from Texas about secession.  When there is a Republican president, you get the same sort of idle secession chatter from California.  

Edited September 8, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[screamin]

4 hours ago, bardgal said:

Ok, I just went back and watched it for the ... I've lost count because nerd. You're inventing things that didn't happen.

All Bran said was, "He's on his way back with Daenerys Targaryen."

That's ALL we know (well, aside from his true ID.) And maybe that's all it said. Other than probably, Call the Banners, we're marching north."

Seriously. Priorities. The politics can wait. Survival is Job #1, or that Bran said anything - even if he's seen it. 

 

****

You've no proof anything else was in the letter. No bending the knee, no Lannister army, etc.

So, I'm going to assume something different than you did.

I'm going to assume Jon would never give that level of information A) Not directly in person, and B) Put that information in a raven scroll. 

It will be fun to see how this plays out next season.... which seems a painfully long time away. /cry

Inventing things? Them's fighting words. I'm not going to go back to the recording this very minute, but this buzzfeed article has the dialogue:

LF: I can't believe he'd surrender the Northern crown without consulting you.

Sansa: This is his writing. His signature. He pledged to fight for Danaerys Targaryen. He bent the knee.

And the article also includes the HBO prop message Sansa was holding, so we can read it ourselves. It says:

"Sansa,

Cersei Lannister has pledged her forces to our cause, as has Daenerys Targaryen. And if we survive this war, I have pledged our forces to Daenerys as the rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. We are both coming to organise the defence of the realm.

Jon Snow – Warden of the North."

[Blonde Gator]

5 hours ago, bardgal said:

Ok, I just went back and watched it for the ... I've lost count because nerd. You're inventing things that didn't happen.

All Bran said was, "He's on his way back with Daenerys Targaryen."

That's ALL we know (well, aside from his true ID.) And maybe that's all it said. Other than probably, Call the Banners, we're marching north."

Seriously. Priorities. The politics can wait. Survival is Job #1, or that Bran said anything - even if he's seen it. 

(I have to say that scene always cracks me up:

SAM: What happened to you beyond the Wall?

BRAN: I became the Three Eyed Raven.

SAM: Oh. I don't know what that means.

BRAN: I can see things that happened in the past. Things happening now all over the world. WHY DID YOU COME TO WINTERFELL? (lolwut.. you just said...)

****

You've no proof anything else was in the letter. No bending the knee, no Lannister army, etc.

So, I'm going to assume something different than you did.

I'm going to assume Jon would never give that level of information A) Not directly in person, and B) Put that information in a raven scroll. 

It will be fun to see how this plays out next season.... which seems a painfully long time away. /cry

Jon sent Sansa a raven.  She tells LF "he's bent the knee" while holding the raven-gram, in the scene where LF asks Sansa what Arya wants (Lady of WF). 

You can look online  at the official Game of Thrones site and read the "letter" yourself.  It wasn't "Bran seeing everything" as you've tried to convince us.

26 minutes ago, screamin said:

Inventing things? Them's fighting words. I'm not going to go back to the recording this very minute, but this buzzfeed article has the dialogue:

LF: I can't believe he'd surrender the Northern crown without consulting you.

Sansa: This is his writing. His signature. He pledged to fight for Danaerys Targaryen. He bent the knee.

And the article also includes the HBO prop message Sansa was holding, so we can read it ourselves. It says:

"Sansa,

Cersei Lannister has pledged her forces to our cause, as has Daenerys Targaryen. And if we survive this war, I have pledged our forces to Daenerys as the rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. We are both coming to organise the defence of the realm.

Jon Snow – Warden of the North."

See @ :30 for the exact scene, you are spot on.

 

[crowceilidh]

Rewatched last night and enjoyed the scene around the strategy map quite a lot.  The teenageryness of Jon and Dany trying to stay together on the boat and it being clocked by everyone - I thought Emilia Clarke did an amazing job of seeming like a very young girl with an uncontrollable crush trying to justify her behaviour to Jorah and Tyrion so that they wouldn't see the REAL reason she wanted to arrive by ship.  Also, I don't see how arriving by ship precludes arriving at WF by dragon. There's quite a lot of land to cross no matter where they make landfall.

[screamin]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

This is so silly. Logic would dictate that since Dany has pledged all her resources towards the protection of the North, Jon has in return bend the knee. This was the negotiation happening in Dragonstone before Dany saw the threat and was willing to help without any demands. 

Trouble is, Spock, Sansa was not at Dragonstone during that negotiation. She does not know that Dany saw the threat and was willing to help without any demands, because Jon didn't tell her. And that letter says nothing about Dany having 'pledged all her resources', she's pledged her forces to come to the North - along with Cersei Lannister's. 

Jon could have told Sansa about Danaerys freely giving them the dragonglass, about Dany treating him well and taking him into her confidence, about Dany rescuing him from the undead with a dragon, by sending messages to Sansa detailing these things as they happened, instead of neglecting to communicate 'for weeks.' All these things would be good selling points for Sansa to present to the lords as reasons to consider Dany a trustworthy ally. But there is nothing in that letter that automatically assures the North that the upcoming Dothraki and Lannister occupation of the North will be entirely benevolent, OR that Dany is coming purely as a benefactor and not as a conquerer...nothing to show that Jon bent the knee of his own free will and not as a response to a threat to torch the North if he didn't.

Quote

 

I like how all these technical questions come up only with regard to Jon and Dany - did Dany inform her armies about the change in plans, how is Jon going to feed all these armies etc.  The show does not consider this information important - we should go ahead and assume that yes, Dany did inform her men and yes, Jon has taken into account the food situation and food is probably being taken north from the south on the ships along with the men and horses. But apparently Jon should have included a detailed  plan on how he intends to feed soldiers in his ravengram because hey, Sansa needs this very important information to convince the Northerners that the army of the dead is the more pressing problem.

 

The show does not consider this information important? But the show has made the point in several episodes that food is becoming REALLY important. Dany's army took Casterly Rock - but Jaime "emptied the larders" before he abandoned it, so that rich prize suddenly became a useless trap her hungry armies can't hold. Cersei plundered Highgarden not only of its gold, but of hundreds of tons of food for her own armies and KL - food Dany burned. Sansa knows that if the winter lasts long enough, people will starve, and that if Northern strongholds fall to an enemy - either from beyond the Wall or the south - their precious grain stores will be lost, so she orders everyone to bring their food to Winterfell, the North's strongest fortress, for safekeeping. Why should Sansa come to the conclusion that Dany will supply all the food for all the coming armies, when even WE don't know that for sure? From what royal sphincter will Dany produce these hundreds of tons of grain that we've never seen she possesses?

As for the idea that "the army of the dead is the more pressing problem", sure, the army of the dead is a deadly threat. But just because it's a deadly new threat doesn't mean that all the old deadly threats suddenly become harmless and ignorable. To a Northern lord or peasant watching his family die in a skirmish with hated Lannister forces who still hold a grudge, or who watch their family starve because Dothraki forces suddenly realized that in Winter there is no grass and took their grain stores to feed their beloved horses, it won't comfort them a great deal as they die to think "Oh, well, at least we're protected from the undead." In the long run, dead is dead. And I don't think it's unreasonable for the North to expect their king to consider ALL these threats important, and to worry when he seems to disregard them to concentrate on one alone.

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 But armor and grain storage expert Sansa should be able to answer all these questions right? If she cannot, then don't worry. Warden of the North, Jon will be there in episode one next season and he will lay out his plans as any competent leader should be able to do. 

So just because Sansa was once taught what kind of lining her future lord husband needs in his armor to stay cozy and warm in the winter, Jon can suddenly throw the entire problem of how to supply and maintain a giant marching army into her lap to take care of herself, and just ASSUME she can come up with all the right answers as to how he plans to feed that army, or feed it herself - even though she has explicitly told Jon that she knows nothing about military strategy and that's his bailiwick? That's some great kinging there, Jon. Oh, excuse me - wardening.

Quote

What is even the point of Sansa as Lady of Winterfell if she can't make a strong case for why the North needing allies and weapons is more important than things like Northern independence?

It's not just about having a nice flag and no King's Landing taxes for the North. It's about suddenly getting an unknown absolute ruler with WMD who may be a tyrant - and this at a moment when the North is already teetering on famine and is REALLY vulnerable. It's Sansa's job to present Jon's decision as a good one for the North and Dany as a purely benevolent ally who is bent only on helping them and not on exploiting their weakness and vulnerability. But she can't make bricks without straw. She can't present Dany's good qualities and the things she's done for Jon to demonstrate her trustworthiness if she doesn't know about them. If you think it's so easy, go ahead and tell us how YOU would answer the questions the lords would ask her that I mentioned in an earlier post - using ONLY the information you know from that message, and not making anything up that might discredit Jon later by being proven a lie.

Myself, I think it would go something like this:

Sansa: Yes, Jon has bent the knee to Danaerys and she is our new ruler. But if Jon did it, I'm sure it was because he thought she would be a good ruler and would help us in our plight without exploiting us.

Lords: How do you know he didn't bend the knee under threat of dragonfire? None of the scant messages we have from him rule that out.

Sansa: If he did, it was only to save the North from dragonfire, like Torrhen did. Jon would never cravenly bend the knee just to save his own life. 

Lords: And how do we know this Targaryen woman, who's suffered the defeat of two of her most important allies, isn't looking for an easy place to conquer with a supply of grain for her armies to hole up and wait till spring? How do we know she'll leave WF and fight the undead once she gets there, instead of closing the gates and feeding off our winter stores while we starve?

Sansa: We chose Jon as our ruler because we trust his judgement. He would rather be burned alive than agree to cooperate with a ruler who would do that. And he trusts her. So she must surely be worthy of his trust.

Lords: According to that message, Jon also trusts Cersei Lannister, letting her send a large army to the North to fight beside him, without fear it might turn on him or us at some vulnerable point. Does that mean Cersei Lannister is also worthy of his trust? 

Sansa (in an undertone) Fuck my life.

[GraceK]

At this point, whether the Northern Lords agree or not doesn't matter. So Jon didn't share every little detail.  Who honestly cares? They made him King, he didn't ask for it. They didn't make him King with the stipulation " only as long as you make decisions we agree with". They should trust him at this point, and if they don't  trust him to do what is best for the north then they shouldn't have made him King. It's easy for them to sit at WF and bitch bitch bitch but they have no legs to stand on. They were willing to sit in their castles and let Ramsey Bolton be in charge , and let him starve them out. They weren't willing to lift a damn finger to help Jon and Sansa reclaim WF, and now when they are again Safe and Comfortable and "independent " they are gonna have an issue with Jon bending the knee??? It doesn't matter how much grain they have or what kind of Targareyen Dany is when the NK riding an ice dragon with an army of dead people shows up on their door and kills them all. I am so sick of this Jon is an idiot who didn't tell Sansa everything narrative, and worrying about  these poor northern lords opinions. Jon has been consistently fighting and trying to warn people aBout this threat for 6 years and has died for it. Politics doesn't matter, who's on the Iron throne doesn't matter, defeating the NK and saving the world from eternal night is what matters and he knows that. If they can't get in line and put aside pride when Dany shows up with armies and dragons to defend them then they are idiots.

its also quite an assumption to think that Jon bent the knee under threat of death. Yes, Dany is SUCH a tyrant that she threatens to kill Jon with Dragonfire unless he bends the knee, but she is willing to risk her life and try to save them all?? If they think Jon is genuinely coming to the north with a conquering tyrant to "organize the defense of the realm" then they are unbelievably stupid and don't know him at all.

Edited September 8, 2017 by GraceK

[Katsullivan]

6 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

You don't see even a tiny difference between a full Targaryen, raised in Essos with an army of Eunuchs and Savages, and a man whose mother was a Stark of Winterfell and who was raised by the Lord of Winterfell, whose loyalty is to the North and who only just found out he is half Tarygaryen?

Speaking for myself, I see a huge difference between a full Targaryen raised in Essos in exile, and a Targaryen with a Stark mother whose very existence is a text-book case of lands/realms being acquired by "marriage conquest". The North will contemplate Lyanna Stark, who has turned from a symbol of Targaryen brutality on the North to a foolish girl who dishonored her family by breaking her engagement to Robert Baratheon, allowed herself to be seduced by the Mad King's son, started a war and inevitably lost the North to the Targaryens. I imagine that a lot of Northern Lords will wonder just how much or little Jon Snow really knew about his birth, and how convenient that this discovery was made at the arrival of his last remaining Targaryen relative, with her (their) army and her (their) dragons. They will wonder at how "easily" he bent the Knee, putting the North in her power and squashing any chance of a Northern rebellion against the Targaryens.

Like if the North are going to go full-Targaryen-paranoia, then let's have them go all the way. 

If the North are going to hate Dany for being the Mad King's daughter, they are going to be revolted at the idea that they inevitably crowned a Targaryen their King, and that this same "cuckoo-in-the-nest" Targaryen boy has handed the North back to his family. 

1 hour ago, crowceilidh said:

The teenageryness of Jon and Dany trying to stay together on the boat and it being clocked by everyone - I thought Emilia Clarke did an amazing job of seeming like a very young girl with an uncontrollable crush

I love the thing she did with her hands at the end of that scene, when she like wrings them, then flattens them on the table while trying to not to look as obvious as she was being. I burst out laughing. She's a great physical actress and it's moments like that that I wish she had a stronger actor than Kit to play off against. She shines in her scenes with Dinklage and Iain and Nathalie, but with Kit, she's doing all the heavy-lifting. Slightly OT, but I really wish they had got someone stronger and taller, even if he wasn't as pretty, to play Jon.

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, crowceilidh said:

Rewatched last night and enjoyed the scene around the strategy map quite a lot.  The teenageryness of Jon and Dany trying to stay together on the boat and it being clocked by everyone - I thought Emilia Clarke did an amazing job of seeming like a very young girl with an uncontrollable crush trying to justify her behaviour to Jorah and Tyrion so that they wouldn't see the REAL reason she wanted to arrive by ship.  Also, I don't see how arriving by ship precludes arriving at WF by dragon. There's quite a lot of land to cross no matter where they make landfall.

Wasn't the thinking that it would make a better impression if Dany arrived with Jon as a show of solidarity, rather than on a dragon as a show of strength? She'd be more likely to be accepted. It was diplomacy. I think she/Jon were right, but yeah...it was also pretty clear that she wanted the time with him.

[GraceK]

Off topic but I thought this was hilarious 

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

I love the thing she did with her hands at the end of that scene, when she like wrings them, then flattens them on the table while trying to not to look as obvious as she was being. I burst out laughing. 

This was GREAT. For all the dragons and fire, the actors bring a lot of subtlety to this show. Emilia Clarke in particular manages to show huge cracks in Dany by barely showing them, which makes the character so much more sympathetic and loveable, I think. And I totally agree about her scenes with Peter Dinklage, Iain Glenn, and Nathalie Emmanuel. The Dany/Missendei friendship, even though it's a small part of the action, is one of my favorite things about this story. When those two start gossiping about boys, I just smile and smile. Both actresses are incredibly charming and bring so much depth to those small interactions.

Edited September 8, 2017 by madam magpie

[qtpye]

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Dev F said:

The thing that bugs me most about Cersei's plot is that it renders the actions of our heroes largely irrelevant, after the episode jumped through a bunch of hoops to give them all something to do in the first place. 

I suppose we're meant to assume that Cersei's original plan was just to lie about accepting the truce immediately, after laying down some minor terms so as not to look suspiciously eager. But then dumb, noble Jon refused to agree to her "Just stay neutral" demand, so she was forced to pretend the deal was off, counting on her brother to chase after her and convince her otherwise.

Which means that Jon's and Tyrion's big moments didn't really matter. They were both just minor turns in Cersei's boring plan to be evil some more.

Now, at least Jon's plan had some meaning for his relationships with his allies, particularly Dany, as he showed them how deeply he values honor and truthfulness. But Tyrion's big moment played solely to Cersei, who was scamming him the whole time. So everything that seemed to be about him being persuasive and perceptive were instead about him being a gullible rube. And everything that seemed to be about Cersei revealing her vulnerability was just her lying for personal gain. What's the point of twisting the episode into awkward circles for the sake of a character beat that end up being so completely empty and meaningless?

 

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 5:54 PM, RedheadZombie said:

I'm not completely caught up yet, but there's something I haven't yet seen mentioned.  Cersei very clearly told Tyrion he was responsible for two of her children's deaths, and Joffrey was definitely left out.  Considering Tyrion was tried for Joffrey's death, wouldn't he have immediately realized she now knows who really killed Joffrey?  That's a big reveal and it occurred off camera.  A big miss, in my opinion, although I loved the scene overall.  But how hard would it have been to show Jaime relaying the info to Tyrion?  And a throw away line from Tyrion to Cersei about being cleared of Joffrey's death.

And as much as I loved the scene between Olenna and Jaime, I wish Jaime could have gotten off a last shot of - so you were going to happily sit quietly while my brother died for your crime, and Sansa was being hunted down for same. 

Obviously I can't forgive Olenna for this.  I was happy to find out, in a season three re-watch, that Olenna was against Margaery marrying Joffrey, and thought her son as imbecile for putting the plan in action.  So technically, Olenna was cleaning up Mace's mess, and if that involved innocent victims, well she was saving her granddaughter.  I still think she was a bitch.

 

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 6:16 PM, RedheadZombie said:

I remember Jaime telling Cersei, but why didn't Tyrion perk up when Cersei only accused him of Myrcella's and Tommen's deaths?  It would seem he knew about Olenna, but I dislike the fact that this revelation occurred off camera.  And I wanted to see Cersei be forced to acknowledge to Tyrion that he did not murder Joffrey.  I felt a little cheated.

I agree about Olenna.  I also think there's no way she wouldn't have outed Littlefinger's role in the whole thing.

Lord,  Tyrion has become stupid.  He is acting like his sister is someone who can be reasoned with.  He pledged every thing to her and got nothing in return and that includes apologies.  Did Peter Dinklage do something to piss off the showrunners?

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 6:21 PM, SimoneS said:

I loved Olenna. I think that protecting Margaery was foremost in her mind when she conspired to kill Joffrey. She didn't give a thought to the fall out as long as her family was not implicated. Olenna's big mistake was not killing Cersei first. 

Olenna learned from her mistakes.  She tried to warn Danny getting rid of Cersei first would be the best way to save lives.  If Danny was sitting on the Iron Throne now, then the Fellowship of the Wight would not have happened and NK would not be riding a dragon.

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Dev F said:

The thing that bugs me most about Cersei's plot is that it renders the actions of our heroes largely irrelevant, after the episode jumped through a bunch of hoops to give them all something to do in the first place. 

I suppose we're meant to assume that Cersei's original plan was just to lie about accepting the truce immediately, after laying down some minor terms so as not to look suspiciously eager. But then dumb, noble Jon refused to agree to her "Just stay neutral" demand, so she was forced to pretend the deal was off, counting on her brother to chase after her and convince her otherwise.

Which means that Jon's and Tyrion's big moments didn't really matter. They were both just minor turns in Cersei's boring plan to be evil some more.

Now, at least Jon's plan had some meaning for his relationships with his allies, particularly Dany, as he showed them how deeply he values honor and truthfulness. But Tyrion's big moment played solely to Cersei, who was scamming him the whole time. So everything that seemed to be about him being persuasive and perceptive were instead about him being a gullible rube. And everything that seemed to be about Cersei revealing her vulnerability was just her lying for personal gain. What's the point of twisting the episode into awkward circles for the sake of a character beat that end up being so completely empty and meaningless?

 

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 5:54 PM, RedheadZombie said:

I'm not completely caught up yet, but there's something I haven't yet seen mentioned.  Cersei very clearly told Tyrion he was responsible for two of her children's deaths, and Joffrey was definitely left out.  Considering Tyrion was tried for Joffrey's death, wouldn't he have immediately realized she now knows who really killed Joffrey?  That's a big reveal and it occurred off camera.  A big miss, in my opinion, although I loved the scene overall.  But how hard would it have been to show Jaime relaying the info to Tyrion?  And a throw away line from Tyrion to Cersei about being cleared of Joffrey's death.

And as much as I loved the scene between Olenna and Jaime, I wish Jaime could have gotten off a last shot of - so you were going to happily sit quietly while my brother died for your crime, and Sansa was being hunted down for same. 

Obviously I can't forgive Olenna for this.  I was happy to find out, in a season three re-watch, that Olenna was against Margaery marrying Joffrey, and thought her son as imbecile for putting the plan in action.  So technically, Olenna was cleaning up Mace's mess, and if that involved innocent victims, well she was saving her granddaughter.  I still think she was a bitch.

 

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 6:16 PM, RedheadZombie said:

I remember Jaime telling Cersei, but why didn't Tyrion perk up when Cersei only accused him of Myrcella's and Tommen's deaths?  It would seem he knew about Olenna, but I dislike the fact that this revelation occurred off camera.  And I wanted to see Cersei be forced to acknowledge to Tyrion that he did not murder Joffrey.  I felt a little cheated.

I agree about Olenna.  I also think there's no way she wouldn't have outed Littlefinger's role in the whole thing.

Lord,  Tyrion has become stupid.  He is acting like his sister is someone who can be reasoned with.  He pledged every thing to her and got nothing in return and that includes apologies.  Did Peter Dinklage do something to piss off the showrunners?

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 6:21 PM, SimoneS said:

I loved Olenna. I think that protecting Margaery was foremost in her mind when she conspired to kill Joffrey. She didn't give a thought to the fall out as long as her family was not implicated. Olenna's big mistake was not killing Cersei first. 

Olenna learned from her mistakes.  She tried to warn Danny getting rid of Cersei first would be the best way to save lives.  If Danny was sitting on the Iron Throne now, then the Fellowship of the Wight would not have happened and NK would not be riding a dragon.

[freebie]

Quote

The show does not consider this information important? But the show has made the point in several episodes that food is becoming REALLY important.

Sure, from the point of view of the characters whose story lines have touched on logistics, the topic of food stores is important. For characters like Jon and now Daenerys, who recognize what is actually at stake, grain stores are way down the list as things stand at the end of this episode. There's simply no time to focus on "real world" issues like how the rulers are going to feed the rank-and-file throughout the winter. There might be a comment here or there, but this cannot be a major plot point. After all, the dead don't eat.

Realistically, there is a very short amount of time left to tell this story, which is going to have to include, at a minimum: (1) a battle against the Night King and his army; (2) a battle against Cersei and her army (assuming the Night King doesn't defeat everyone in Westeros by the end of episode two and the remaining episodes follow his adventures as he and his gang take on the cities of Essos one-by-one); and (3) resolution of the question about who will be next to sit on the Iron Throne, which will require resolution of multiple subplots -- which Targaryen is the rightful heir; what will the non-rightful Targaryen do/say about that; how will all of the Starks, northern lords, and Team Daenerys react; how intensely will Jon brood about his actual origins; etc.

[arty]

50 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Lord,  Tyrion has become stupid.  He is acting like his sister is someone who can be reasoned with.  He pledged every thing to her and got nothing in return and that includes apologies.

What did Tyrion pledge to her? I honestly cannot remember, and I have watched that scene several times because it is a gem of scene. I've wondered for some time why the show refuses to get rid of Cersei sooner rather than later, but that scene answered my question. Lena Heady and Peter Dinklage facing off against one another at any point in the series, but especially at this critical juncture, is worth more Cersei. Wow.

(The scene also made me wish we could visit the Stark sisters twenty years from now for a conversation. In my fantasy both sisters are alive and have partook of a buffet of life's offerings rather than the many helpings of tragedy that they currently know. I assume that theirs will be a softer and less bitter reunion, but I love the idea of siblings of a certain age whose relationship has always been prickly taking the full measure of one another and what life has done to them. As much as I enjoyed the last scene between Arya and Sansa, it seemed oddly weightless compared to the emotionally jam-packed Tyrion and Cersei scene.)

Tyrion has so accurately pegged his sister in previous seasons, "Cersei is very good at using honest emotions for dishonest purposes," I'm surprised that he did not realize or at least suspect what was happening in their private encounter. Perhaps he was blinded by guilt for the loss of people both of them loved; I don't know.  

11 hours ago, anamika said:

Sansa - Jon is pledging to fight for Dany and bend the knee in order to save the North? I need to kick him out and make myself queen.

Dany – I lost my child to this threat. But I am going to put an immediate stop to my quest for the Iron throne, not make any demands on the KITN and use all my resources to protect and save the North.

First, I think we can see from this, who would be the best leader of the seven kingdoms or even the North – a queen who recognizes that it’s not important who rules over what, but that dealing with the army of the dead is what is most important.

Second, we have already established that Jon not letting Sansa know about what he was doing on Dragonstone was a good thing considering that she was letting LF know everything and he would have created more dissension against Jon among the Northern houses.

It seems to me that nearly everything Sansa has done since Jon left Winterfell has been in service of his agenda, which is preparing for and defeating the Army of the Dead. Littlefinger says to her early in the season, "The Northerners are only focused on the threat to the north" and she responds, "As they should be." I haven't seen her insinuate or express that her interest is in replacing Jon despite Littlefinger's overtures, "Command suits you." "Jon was made King. He can be un-made King." So I don't have any basis to conclude that Sansa would not be "a queen who recognizes that it's not important who rules over what, but that dealing with he army of the dead is what is most important." Even after she received the raven from Jon announcing that he had bent the knee to Dany, (yikes was that a cold, business-like, Stannis-like letter. Not one mention of the return of his long-lost possibly dead siblings) it seemed that she was bothered as Tyrion was when the same decision was sprung on him, "I would have said that it was a good idea if you had bothered to ask my opinion beforehand." (I'm paraphrasing. I don't remember the exact words used.)

To your second point, was she really letting Littlefinger know everything? What really did she let him know & how did/could he use any of it for his gain/Jon's defeat? Noticeably and IMO admirably, she kept from him the one critical piece of information that Lord "Knowledge is power" Baelish really could have used, which is that Bran returned home with the ability to know everything that ever was or is occurring. I think that Sansa meant it when she told Jon, "only a fool would trust Littlefinger," and the time since then was her trying to figure out a way to defeat him without sacrificing what he brings to the table. In large part due to what Bran knew and Littlefinger didn't know, she was finally able to do just that this episode.

[screamin]

6 hours ago, GraceK said:

its also quite an assumption to think that Jon bent the knee under threat of death. Yes, Dany is SUCH a tyrant that she threatens to kill Jon with Dragonfire unless he bends the knee, but she is willing to risk her life and try to save them all?? If they think Jon is genuinely coming to the north with a conquering tyrant to "organize the defense of the realm" then they are unbelievably stupid and don't know him at all.

How can  the Northern lords KNOW that Dany is willing to risk her life to save them all? If Sansa knew Dany had actually personally flown her dragon to rescue Jon from beyond the Wall, she could tell the lords this - but Jon hasn't told her. So the lords have no idea that Dany is that unselfish, no idea that Dany ISN'T just another claimant to the throne only willing to help for a quid pro quo that will advance her claim in some way. And I don't see why they should assume without evidence that Dany is that good, unselfish ruler. Ever since Robert died, all the rulers they've seen have been seriously disappointing. They rose up for Robb, declared him King, and spilled their blood for his sake. He was well intentioned, but he screwed up everything with a ridiculously avoidable mistake, and they ended up sacrificing their men for nothing. Renly, who decided to try to seize the kingdom for no better reason than that he COULD. Stannis, who burned his daughter for a throne. Joffrey. Tommen. Cersei. (Enough said). And the Targaryen family has a well known reputation for having at least 50% of its members turn out mentally unstable in some way. And THIS member has dragons. IMO, expecting her to be a good ruler without any evidence that she IS would be demanding unrealistic optimism of the North, considering what reality has been like there over the past few years.

Quote

At this point, whether the Northern Lords agree or not doesn't matter. So Jon didn't share every little detail.  Who honestly cares? They made him King, he didn't ask for it. They didn't make him King with the stipulation " only as long as you make decisions we agree with". They should trust him at this point, and if they don't  trust him to do what is best for the north then they shouldn't have made him King. It's easy for them to sit at WF and bitch bitch bitch but they have no legs to stand on. They were willing to sit in their castles and let Ramsey Bolton be in charge , and let him starve them out. They weren't willing to lift a damn finger to help Jon and Sansa reclaim WF, and now when they are again Safe and Comfortable and "independent " they are gonna have an issue with Jon bending the knee???  It doesn't matter how much grain they have or what kind of Targareyen Dany is when the NK riding an ice dragon with an army of dead people shows up on their door and kills them all. 

Conversely, it won't matter if Dany fights the WW and wins but decides to prioritize the feeding of her army over the feeding of the North (as the more callous type of rulers are prone to do) and snuggles down in Winterfell with her army to wait out the winter on the supply of food Sansa has assiduously collected and let the people starve outside the walls. The people will be just as dead without food within a few weeks as they would if killed by wights.

Look, I get that the fearful reactions of the lords might not be altogether rational. I get that Dany's aid is needed, and even if she turns out to be an evil ruler, there's not a lot the North can actually do about it - they're too weak to stop her from doing anything she really wants to do in the North. But the thing is, the North HAS been through a lot of trauma lately, and it's perfectly understandable that the threat of MORE trauma whose nature they can't predict may cause them to panic. This may seem ungratefully lacking in trust to Jon, who's done so much for them already.

But when Jon took on the kingdom, he agreed to be the king to ALL the North. He didn't agree to be just be the king of only the brave Northerners with steady nerves - he agreed to be king of the doubters, the nervous ones, the PITAs, and the horribly traumatized who shake at their own shadows. His duty is to ALL of them. So his duty includes reassuring them with facts that he HAS and can give about Dany's good character, which would likely reduce their panic a good deal. It would ill suit him at this point to get pissy at his people and say, "What! They questioned whether Dany was trustworthy when I bent the knee? How vile of them! Of course, I HAD facts that I could have given them to prove her trustworthiness, but I didn't give them because, well...no special reason, I just didn't feel like it. That doesn't matter! They shouldn't NEED facts or reassurance! They deserve to have the wights get them!"

I really don't think, though, that Jon withheld the information of Dany rescuing him and otherwise proving her trustworthiness as some kind of twisted test of Sansa and his people's steadfast faith in him. I think he just fell victim to ''out of sight, out of mind" distraction with wights and Dany and forgot to keep in mind the situation at WF and what info they'd need from him. And I think as the fundamentally good guy he is, he'll hasten to give that reassurance when he finally gets to WF (though that may be some while, an army moves slowly on foot, and he'd likely want to go with them to organize it properly) and belatedly realizes just how worried people have gotten. Unfortunately, Jon seems to have a knack for self-created unnecessary crises that he really needs to grow out of as a leader.

ETA: Oh, I loved that Faceless comic, GraceK! Where did you get it?

Edited September 8, 2017 by screamin

[GraceK]

23 minutes ago, screamin said:

Unfortunately, Jon seems to have a knack for self-created unnecessary crises that he really needs to grow out of as a leader.

As much as I love him, I do have to agree with this :)

[bardgal]

I am fail.

Thank you to those who reminded me of the Sansa scene with the scroll. I guess I was too busy hating on LF's douchbaggary to listen. 

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

How can  the Northern lords KNOW that Dany is willing to risk her life to save them all? If Sansa knew Dany had actually personally flown her dragon to rescue Jon from beyond the Wall, she could tell the lords this - but Jon hasn't told her. So the lords have no idea that Dany is that unselfish, no idea that Dany ISN'T just another claimant to the throne only willing to help for a quid pro quo that will advance her claim in some way. And I don't see why they should assume without evidence that Dany is that good, unselfish ruler. Ever since Robert died, all the rulers they've seen have been seriously disappointing. They rose up for Robb, declared him King, and spilled their blood for his sake. He was well intentioned, but he screwed up everything with a ridiculously avoidable mistake, and they ended up sacrificing their men for nothing. Renly, who decided to try to seize the kingdom for no better reason than that he COULD. Stannis, who burned his daughter for a throne. Joffrey. Tommen. Cersei. (Enough said). And the Targaryen family has a well known reputation for having at least 50% of its members turn out mentally unstable in some way. And THIS member has dragons. IMO, expecting her to be a good ruler without any evidence that she IS would be demanding unrealistic optimism of the North, considering what reality has been like there over the past few years.

Conversely, it won't matter if Dany fights the WW and wins but decides to prioritize the feeding of her army over the feeding of the North (as the more callous type of rulers are prone to do) and snuggles down in Winterfell with her army to wait out the winter on the supply of food Sansa has assiduously collected and let the people starve outside the walls. The people will be just as dead without food within a few weeks as they would if killed by wights.

Look, I get that the fearful reactions of the lords might not be altogether rational. I get that Dany's aid is needed, and even if she turns out to be an evil ruler, there's not a lot the North can actually do about it - they're too weak to stop her from doing anything she really wants to do in the North. But the thing is, the North HAS been through a lot of trauma lately, and it's perfectly understandable that the threat of MORE trauma whose nature they can't predict may cause them to panic. This may seem ungratefully lacking in trust to Jon, who's done so much for them already.

But when Jon took on the kingdom, he agreed to be the king to ALL the North. He didn't agree to be just be the king of only the brave Northerners with steady nerves - he agreed to be king of the doubters, the nervous ones, the PITAs, and the horribly traumatized who shake at their own shadows. His duty is to ALL of them. So his duty includes reassuring them with facts that he HAS and can give about Dany's good character, which would likely reduce their panic a good deal. It would ill suit him at this point to get pissy at his people and say, "What! They questioned whether Dany was trustworthy when I bent the knee? How vile of them! Of course, I HAD facts that I could have given them to prove her trustworthiness, but I didn't give them because, well...no special reason, I just didn't feel like it. That doesn't matter! They shouldn't NEED facts or reassurance! They deserve to have the wights get them!"

I really don't think, though, that Jon withheld the information of Dany rescuing him and otherwise proving her trustworthiness as some kind of twisted test of Sansa and his people's steadfast faith in him. I think he just fell victim to ''out of sight, out of mind" distraction with wights and Dany and forgot to keep in mind the situation at WF and what info they'd need from him. And I think as the fundamentally good guy he is, he'll hasten to give that reassurance when he finally gets to WF (though that may be some while, an army moves slowly on foot, and he'd likely want to go with them to organize it properly) and belatedly realizes just how worried people have gotten. Unfortunately, Jon seems to have a knack for self-created unnecessary crises that he really needs to grow out of as a leader.

ETA: Oh, I loved that Faceless comic, GraceK! Where did you get it?

I do agree that Jon should have given more information. It is pretty annoying to me that he has been gone for months and has not kept in touch with Sansa. She was given WF in his stead, to just not give her any information isn't fair.  I just assume that he will go into more detail when he arrives, and since they have bigger problems at the moment, which he did tell them before he left, they should give him the benefit of the doubt.

I just don't put much faith in the North to be  honest from what I have seen in the show, and I tend to get defensive of Jon because I feel he is truly a character with the best of intentions who has gotten betrayed and stabbed, and is still trying to save everyone, that it annoys me that every little action seems to be ridiculed and picked apart by some fans . 

@screamin, I honestly don't know what you mean when you say Faceless comic o.o lol can you elaborate? I wasn't aware I had one :)

( are you making fun of me?)

Edited September 8, 2017 by GraceK

[MadMouse]

If anyone in the North or Vale tried to betray Jon they'd have a second smile or a Valyrian sun tan before they knew what happened

[screamin]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

 

@screamin, I honestly don't know what you mean when you say Faceless comic o.o lol can you elaborate? I wasn't aware I had one :)

( are you making fun of me?)

Not even a little bit. I meant that delightful comic you posted several hours ago with Arya pranking Sansa with Jon's amputated face. (Looking back, I realize I asked very obscurely.) I liked it so much I wanted to see if there were more where that came from.

[GraceK]

25 minutes ago, screamin said:

Not even a little bit. I meant that delightful comic you posted several hours ago with Arya pranking Sansa with Jon's amputated face. (Looking back, I realize I asked very obscurely.) I liked it so much I wanted to see if there were more where that came from.

Oh ok lol! I got it from a Facebook page called Aegon Targareyo I think. They post loads of different GOT memes :) 

 

Edited September 9, 2017 by GraceK

[anamika]

11 hours ago, screamin said:

Trouble is, Spock, Sansa was not at Dragonstone during that negotiation. She does not know that Dany saw the threat and was willing to help without any demands, because Jon didn't tell her.

Because at this point it does not matter!!!!!!! What part of 'There is an existential threat marching on the North and squabbling over petty politics can come later' is hard to understand here? As far as Sansa is concerned, Jon bend the knee in return for Dany's help to save the North and the rest of the 7K - seems to be a reasonable enough trade when their very survival is at stake.

11 hours ago, screamin said:

Jon could have told Sansa about Danaerys freely giving them the dragonglass, about Dany treating him well and taking him into her confidence, about Dany rescuing him from the undead with a dragon, by sending messages to Sansa detailing these things as they happened, instead of neglecting to communicate 'for weeks.'n't.

It's a ravengram. Not a freaking book. Jon is not going to send in 10 pages detailing his life story and everything he did for 7 episodes and how Dany is this awesome person. Sansa should have the common sense to gather from the note that Jon send her that it's time to get ready for a defense force that's coming to save the North. Jon will be there in 15 minutes anyway and will be doing all the explaining that needs to be done.

11 hours ago, screamin said:

The show does not consider this information important? But the show has made the point in several episodes that food is becoming REALLY important. Dany's army took Casterly Rock - but Jaime "emptied the larders" before he abandoned it, so that rich prize suddenly became a useless trap her hungry armies can't hold. Cersei plundered Highgarden not only of its gold, but of hundreds of tons of food for her own armies and KL - food Dany burned. Sansa knows that if the winter lasts long enough, people will starve, and that if Northern strongholds fall to an enemy - either from beyond the Wall or the south - their precious grain stores will be lost, so she orders everyone to bring their food to Winterfell, the North's strongest fortress, for safekeeping. Why should Sansa come to the conclusion that Dany will supply all the food for all the coming armies, when even WE don't know that for sure? From what royal sphincter will Dany produce these hundreds of tons of grain that we've never seen she possesses?

Okay assuming that food is an important concern - why do you think Jon went south in the first place? To get men and allies. So when all this was being discussed in the great hall with the other Northern houses,  why did Sansa not bring up the food situation instead of whinging about Targaryens murdering their ancestors?

Jon wants men to fight against the WW. That's why he went south. That's what he tells Davos on dragonstone.

Davos: I've noticed you staring at her good heart

Jon: There's no time for that. I saw the NK Davos. I looked into his eyes. How many men do we have in the North to fight him? 10,000? Less?

Davos: Fewer...

Jon: What?

Was Sansa sitting on her ass expecting Jon to fail in his mission? So since Jon was planning on bringing back men and dragons, he would either have made preparations for food storage for soldiers coming there, asked Sansa to make preparations for soldiers coming there or is bringing food with him from what's left in the south - Dany after all was still able to feed her men, dragons and horses in the south, despite all that burning of food stores.

So there's your answer. Before he leaves, Jon instructs Sansa to get working on grain storage because if he succeeds in his mission, he is going to come back with a whole load of allies and soldiers. That's why all the grain is being brought to Winterfell.

11 hours ago, screamin said:

As for the idea that "the army of the dead is the more pressing problem", sure, the army of the dead is a deadly threat. But just because it's a deadly new threat doesn't mean that all the old deadly threats suddenly become harmless and ignorable. To a Northern lord or peasant watching his family die in a skirmish with hated Lannister forces who still hold a grudge,  or who watch their family starve because Dothraki forces suddenly realized that in Winter there is no grass and took their grain stores to feed their beloved horses, it won't comfort them a great deal as they die to think "Oh, well, at least we're protected from the undead." In the long run, dead is dead. And I don't think it's unreasonable for the North to expect their king to consider ALL these threats important, and to worry when he seems to disregard them to concentrate on one alone.

Yes, I am sure Jon and Dany will be standing by doing nothing while the Dothraki go on a rampage stealing grass and food from the poor northern peasants who will all starve to death - this is the type of scaremongering that Cersei used to rally people against Dany and why Umber joined with Ramsay against the Starks because Jon brought Wildlings past the wall.

How is that large Vale army that LF brought North for her managing with the food situation? Are they not eating up all the food meant for those poor starving peasants? So the poor peasants will be okay with the good Vale soldiers making them starve to death as opposed to bad Lannister soldiers?

As for the Lannisters. Jaime is riding North and will inform them that there are no Lannister men coming. So they don't have to worry about that.

11 hours ago, screamin said:

So just because Sansa was once taught what kind of lining her future lord husband needs in his armor to stay cozy and warm in the winter, Jon can suddenly throw the entire problem of how to supply and maintain a giant marching army into her lap to take care of herself, and just ASSUME she can come up with all the right answers as to how he plans to feed that army, or feed it herself - even though she has explicitly told Jon that she knows nothing about military strategy and that's his bailiwick? That's some great kinging there, Jon. Oh, excuse me - wardening.

As I already said, Jon would have either made provisions for food or asked Sansa to make provisions for food, because he was planning on coming back with soldiers and dragons.

Here's a question. What exactly is Sansa's job as leader in charge of the North if you want Jon to do everything for her? We constantly have to hear about how Sansa is sooo smart and Jon is dumb and how she is this great politician and rightful QITN and cries of yass queen!!! anytime she does anything even slightly significant. The character herself behaves as if she knows better than Jon about everything, talks down to him, reprimands him to listen to her and yet here you want Jon to give her 10 pages of detailed instructions on how to do everything because she apparently does not have a single individual idea or thought in her head. 

11 hours ago, screamin said:

Myself, I think it would go something like this:

Sansa: Yes, Jon has bent the knee to Danaerys and she is our new ruler. But if Jon did it, I'm sure it was because he thought she would be a good ruler and would help us in our plight without exploiting us.

Lords: How do you know he didn't bend the knee under threat of dragonfire? None of the scant messages we have from him rule that out.

Sansa: If he did, it was only to save the North from dragonfire, like Torrhen did. Jon would never cravenly bend the knee just to save his own life. 

Lords: And how do we know this Targaryen woman, who's suffered the defeat of two of her most important allies, isn't looking for an easy place to conquer with a supply of grain for her armies to hole up and wait till spring? How do we know she'll leave WF and fight the undead once she gets there, instead of closing the gates and feeding off our winter stores while we starve?

Sansa: We chose Jon as our ruler because we trust his judgement. He would rather be burned alive than agree to cooperate with a ruler who would do that. And he trusts her. So she must surely be worthy of his trust.

Lords: According to that message, Jon also trusts Cersei Lannister, letting her send a large army to the North to fight beside him, without fear it might turn on him or us at some vulnerable point. Does that mean Cersei Lannister is also worthy of his trust? 

Sansa (in an undertone) Fuck my life.

Myself, I think it should go like this:

Sansa: The army of the dead is marching on us. We need men, weapons (Dragon glass) and dragons to take them on. Jon is coming back with all that to help us. In return he had to bend the knee and pledge to fight for Queen Daenarys. I know that it sucks that we are back to being part of the 7K. But considering that this is a fight for our very survival, this is the best we can hope for.

Lords: Well we don't like Targaryens or Lannisters. We are going to go back.

Ghost enters and bites off a few fingers. Arya is sitting in a corner twirling her dagger. Bran reminds them that Old Nan's tales are all true.

Sansa: Listen you shitheads. Even our enemies (Lannisters) recognize that this is an existential threat and are putting politics aside to help us. You can either join in and fight for your very survival with us or you can go back to your castles and die. I leave it up to you. We can discuss the politics of Jon bending the knee after winning the great war.

As it is, I think the people Jon won over with his actions will be loyal to Jon - the Wildlings, Lyanna Mormont, Alys Karstark, Umbers.  Royce and Glover are fools easily swayed by LF. If they leave, then you don't have to worry about food problems anymore. Less mouths to feed.

Edited September 9, 2017 by anamika

[screamin]

3 minutes ago, doram said:

Funny how the matter of food stores and famine only applies to Dany. How the North is feeding the entire wildling population and the Vale army was never even a consideration. 

The wildlings manning the Wall are sharing the duties of the Night's Watch, and presumably sharing their food supplies as well. The wildlings that fought with Jon and stayed at WF are Jon's men, and presumably the responsibility of Winterfell to feed. The Vale? Good question. It IS the only fertile region absolutely untouched by the war and hence the only one likely to have a surplus of food to donate to the North without suffering, but you're right that it's not clarified whether their food is coming from the Vale (who at least can spare it), WF, or both. Still, with it being established that Casterly Rock, stripped of food, is a death-trap for an army marching on its stomach, Highgarden's lands stripped of food for KL as a valuable commodity that is then destroyed, and Sansa worrying and counting over every bag of grain that might be lost if a Northern hold is lost to an enemy and requesting it all be brought to WF to be guarded and kept safe, I think the show has adequately conveyed the idea that food is getting to be a scarcer commodity, and likely to get more so...and unlike the Vale troops, Dany's army isn't coming from anywhere that can send food after them.

 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Because at this point it does not matter!!!!!!! What part of 'There is an existential threat marching on the North and squabbling over petty politics can come later' is hard to understand here? ...As far as Sansa is concerned, Jon bend the knee in return for Dany's help to save the North and the rest of the 7K - seems to be a reasonable enough trade when their very survival is at stake.It's a ravengram. Not a freaking book. Jon is not going to send in 10 pages detailing his life story and everything he did for 7 episodes and how Dany is this awesome person. Sansa should have the common sense to gather from the note that Jon send her that it's time to get ready for a defense force that's coming to save the North. Jon will be there in 15 minutes anyway and will be doing all the explaining that needs to be done.

I don't recall asking for a 'freaking book'...or even a slim pamphlet. But Jon sent not ONE message for weeks while Sansa and all his lords were uneasily wondering whether Dany had taken him prisoner, or worse. Sending TWO scraps of paper in that time that say no more than "Dragon queen amenable to us taking dragonglass. Am hopeful for more help," "Dragon queen rescued me from beyond the Wall as we were capturing wight, at great risk to herself. Am going to parley with the Lannisters for a truce while we fight the White Walkers" wouldn't cover the space at the back of my paycheck, nor take five minutes to write, and would greatly alleviate the North's worries about what kind of ruler Jon has been in the hands of all this time and to whom he has signed over their fate. Him NOT writing those two (2) scraps of paper will cause him unnecessary, completely avoidable trouble, and it was remiss of him not to have bothered to keep his kingdom updated. Not criminal, not malicious, just remiss and sloppy, and no amount of exclamation points can make it otherwise.

Quote

 

Sansa: The army of the dead is marching on us. We need men, weapons (Dragon glass) and dragons to take them on. Jon is coming back with all that to help us. In return he had to bend the knee and pledge to fight for Queen Daenarys. I know that it sucks that we are back to being part of the 7K. But considering that this is a fight for our very survival, this is the best we can hope for.

Lords: Well we don't like Targaryens or Lannisters. We are going to go back.

Ghost enters and bites off a few fingers. Arya is sitting in a corner twirling her dagger. Bran reminds them that Old Nan's tales are all true.

Sansa: Listen you shitheads. Even our enemies (Lannisters) recognize that this is an existential threat and are putting politics aside to help us. You can either join in and fight for your very survival with us or you can go back to your castles and die. I leave it up to you. We can discuss the politics of Jon bending the knee after winning the great war.

As it is, I think the people Jon won over with his actions will be loyal to Jon - the Wildlings, Lyanna Mormont, Alys Karstark, Umbers.  Royce and Glover are fools easily swayed by LF. If they leave, then you don't have to worry about food problems anymore. Less mouths to feed.

 

So we're back to "let's just threaten to behead them" as a good idea for managing the lords' fears? Remember, Jon needs EVERY man in this fight. He is so conscious of this that he went to freakin' Cersei Lannister  to try to get her to cooperate and help. And BTW, despite how you imagine Arya to participate in the scene above, I don't think Arya ("but Cersei was on my LIST!") would necessarily be a big fan of collaborating with her. So an outcome where they lose a lot of Northern troops who actually KNOW how to manage a Northern winter is not a desireable outcome, no matter how satisfying it might be to tell the more craven lords to fuck off. FWIW, I think Sansa WILL manage to flatter, soothe and outright bribe them to mostly stay in line, but she will be likely rightly miffed at Jon making her job so much harder than it needed to be, by neglecting minimal communication of info his regent really could have used.

[anamika]

10 hours ago, arty said:

It seems to me that nearly everything Sansa has done since Jon left Winterfell has been in service of his agenda, which is preparing for and defeating the Army of the Dead. Littlefinger says to her early in the season, "The Northerners are only focused on the threat to the north" and she responds, "As they should be.

Show!Sansa is difficult to discuss because she is a terribly written character on the show. Her motivations and actions are hard to decipher and we have to use interviews, scripts and cut scenes to figure out what she is doing. I explained why this is in an earlier post - namely that the writers don't seem to know or are unsure what to do with her and how to write her. Which is why, interpretations of the character vary from extremes of she is shrewd, brilliant, kind, compassionate, merciful, future QITN to she is a selfish, arrogant idiot with no family loyalty and who sucks at diplomacy and politics.

Let's look at her early scenes with Jon and LF this season:

Sansa: Jon, you don't listen to me, you are like Joffrey.

Jon: WTH?! Did you just compare me to Joffrey?

Sansa: Jon, you are a good leader!! Command suits you :)

Jon: ....

Sansa: Jon, I know you did not try to protect me in the previous scene, but don't try to protect me.

Jon: ....

Jon does the opposite of Ned and Robb in forgiving the Karstark and Umber children.

Sansa: Jon, don't make stupid mistakes like Ned and Robb.

Jon: ....

Sansa: Jon, listen to meeee.  There is a wall between us and the WW. Worry about Cersei instead!!

LF: Sansa, Cersei is dangerous. Don't focus North.

Sansa: Don't presume to advice me about Cersei. I am the Cersei expert. And yes, the Northerners should be focused North, not on Cersei.

Brienne: Sansa, LF is dangerous and can cause mischief. Why is he still hanging around here?

Sansa:  Don't presume to advice me about LF. I am the LF expert. I know what he wants. Only a fool would trust him, blah blah. Go meet with Cersei even though she is dangerous.

Then she proceeds to trusts LF for 7 episodes.

10 hours ago, arty said:

 I haven't seen her insinuate or express that her interest is in replacing Jon despite Littlefinger's overtures, "Command suits you." "Jon was made King. He can be un-made King." So I don't have any basis to conclude that Sansa would not be "a queen who recognizes that it's not important who rules over what, but that dealing with he army of the dead is what is most important." Even after she received the raven from Jon announcing that he had bent the knee to Dany, (yikes was that a cold, business-like, Stannis-like letter. Not one mention of the return of his long-lost possibly dead siblings) it seemed that she was bothered as Tyrion was when the same decision was sprung on him, "I would have said that it was a good idea if you had bothered to ask my opinion beforehand." (I'm paraphrasing. I don't remember the exact words used.)

If you missed it, you should watch the scene linked by @Blonde Gator above. Instead of being pleased that the south is riding north to help them defend it, she is more pissed off that he made decisions without consulting her. Which, as has been explained several times - Jon is the KITN and has the right to make decisions unilaterally, this is not the time to write a soliloquy about his long lost siblings - it was a cold, business like message because it is supposed to be a business message about the business of defending the North. Why in the world are you comparing Tyrion asking Jon to lie about his pledge to Dany with Jon sending Sansa a message informing her that his mission was successful and he was coming back to organize the defense of the realm?

And yes, she did want to depose Jon and install herself as queen. Only Arya's presence in Winterfell gave her pause because Arya is not going to go along with that shit.

LF: Perhaps Jon tried to send word earlier

Sansa: No, this is the way he is. This is the way he has always been. Never asked for my opinion. Why would he start now.

Her ego is pricked here. She thinks Jon should ask her opinions and listen to what she says. LF uses that to manipulate her like he's always done.

LF: Man! I can't believe that Jon would give away the Northern crown without consulting you!

Sansa: I know right? How dare he!

LF: Well, you know he was named King in the North. He can be unnamed.

Sansa: Even if I wanted to Arya would never go along with it. She loves Jon more than me. 

Then the discussion about Arya starts - how she is dangerous to Sansa and it is only when LF plays his stupid game about Arya wanting to become Lady of Winterfell that Sansa finally catches onto what LF is trying to do and goes to consult with Bran.

10 hours ago, arty said:

To your second point, was she really letting Littlefinger know everything? What really did she let him know & how did/could he use any of it for his gain/Jon's defeat? Noticeably and IMO admirably, she kept from him the one critical piece of information that Lord "Knowledge is power" Baelish really could have used, which is that Bran returned home with the ability to know everything that ever was or is occurring. I think that Sansa meant it when she told Jon, "only a fool would trust Littlefinger," and the time since then was her trying to figure out a way to defeat him without sacrificing what he brings to the table. In large part due to what Bran knew and Littlefinger didn't know, she was finally able to do just that this episode.

Yes, Sansa was really letting Littlefinger know everything. She gave him free reign over Winterfell and often meets with him in Jon's office confiding everything to him. Sansa inadvertently lets LF know about the presence of the letter, which he then gets from Maester Wolkan and plants in his room to manipulate Arya. We see LF meeting Royce and Glover and these are the Lords who now think that Sansa should be queen. LF notices Sansa's discomfort with Brienne swearing to Arya and when Sansa tells him about Arya threatening her, he gets her to send Brienne away. He nearly gets her to depose Jon and execute Arya until she finally catches on that LF is playing her. As for Bran, LF already knows about his 3ER business because 'Chaos is a Laddah!'

So yes, Sansa tells Jon that 'only a fool would trust LF' and then proves to us that she is the fool. On the show, even Brienne of fucking Tarth is smarter than Sansa Stark. When Sansa states that she is a slow learner, she is not kidding.

So if Jon had kept Sansa informed about what he was doing, that news would have immediately made it's way to LF as it did in this episode where Sansa and LF were confidentially discussing the message and plotting treason in Jon's office. Notice how none of the northern lords were with her.  He was her confidante. LF would have done a lot more damage against Jon if Jon had send information to Sansa earlier.

Edited September 9, 2017 by anamika

[Pogojoco]

I think we have a benefit of seeing Dany in a way the Northern Lords have no way of knowing. We have had the benefit of seven seasons of this character's growth, and while she isn't my favourite character (book or show), I get her and that she does, for the most part, mean well. All the Northern lords know of her is that she's this girl who is the daughter of the notoriously crazy ruler who burned their lord alive and killed their lord's heir (I think Brandon also got burned in the show, but in the book the description of him strangling himself trying to rescue his father is quite vivid.) She's got one army made up of eunuchs that are trained for one thing and another who have a rather notorious reputation for raping and pillaging. She also has large, fire breathing creatures who are more or less myth at this point. With Cersei, at least it's the devil you know. Dany is a complete wild card. 

I'm not sure how the Stark forces are going to react to Danaerys and Jon bending the knee. But for how profoundly silly the show has written them after about the second season, I still wouldn't blame them for having misgivings. I mean, it's all a little crazy. 

Edited September 9, 2017 by Pogojoco

[anamika]

6 hours ago, screamin said:

The wildlings manning the Wall are sharing the duties of the Night's Watch, and presumably sharing their food supplies as well. The wildlings that fought with Jon and stayed at WF are Jon's men, and presumably the responsibility of Winterfell to feed. The Vale? Good question. It IS the only fertile region absolutely untouched by the war and hence the only one likely to have a surplus of food to donate to the North without suffering, but you're right that it's not clarified whether their food is coming from the Vale (who at least can spare it), WF, or both. and unlike the Vale troops, Dany's army isn't coming from anywhere that can send food after them.

Since the Vale food supplies has never been brought up or mentioned on the show, if we assume that the Vale is donating food to the North, then lets also assume that Dorne's untouched food stores is being send North by Dany to feed her armies. 

6 hours ago, screamin said:

I don't recall asking for a 'freaking book'...or even a slim pamphlet. But Jon sent not ONE message for weeks while Sansa and all his lords were uneasily wondering whether Dany had taken him prisoner, or worse. Sending TWO scraps of paper in that time that say no more than "Dragon queen amenable to us taking dragonglass. Am hopeful for more help," "Dragon queen rescued me from beyond the Wall as we were capturing wight, at great risk to herself. Am going to parley with the Lannisters for a truce while we fight the White Walkers" wouldn't cover the space at the back of my paycheck, nor take five minutes to write, and would greatly alleviate the North's worries about what kind of ruler Jon has been in the hands of all this time and to whom he has signed over their fate.

They supposedly made Jon king over Ned's trueborn heir because they thought Jon was the right man to lead them. So they should trust in what he is doing. I don't think they need raven messages every day from Jon:

- 'Dear Sansa, met Dany today. She looks beautiful. We negotiated.

- 'Dear Sansa, my ship got taken away :( 

- 'Dear Sansa, I have asked for Dragonglass.

- 'Dear Sansa, I am mining Dragonglass.  The weather here is awesome.

- 'Dear Sansa, I petted a dragon today :D

And as mentioned many times previously, it was better that Jon did not send messages to Sansa considering that she was feeding all information directly to LF who was using it to manipulate her.  Sansa's main issue with Jon is that he does not ask for her opinion or do what she wants and no matter how many messages Jon sends, he is not going to ask for her opinions or do what she wants - they think too differently. And even from an audience perspective, why should he? Show Sansa as written is rather dumb and has nothing useful to contribute. According to you she needs detailed instructions from Jon to do anything and has no new ideas. Jon probably gave her instructions to start storing up on the food and she is just following orders. That's why she kept LF around her - someone who flatters her ego, praises her intellect and thinks she should be queen. 

Also sending ravens is a two way street you know? Bran send Jon a raven informing him that the WW was marching on Eastwatch.  If Sansa wants information so desperately, why can't she send Jon a raven demanding that he tell her what he was doing? I am sure he would respond to that...

6 hours ago, screamin said:

So we're back to "let's just threaten to behead them" as a good idea for managing the lords' fears? Remember, Jon needs EVERY man in this fight.

But think of all the food saved!! And the poor starving peasants! So if these Northern Lords and their men don't want to help, let them go back to their castles and die. Because food is more important than needing lots of men to fight. We need to think of the food!

6 hours ago, screamin said:

And BTW, despite how you imagine Arya to participate in the scene above, I don't think Arya ("but Cersei was on my LIST!") would necessarily be a big fan of collaborating with her.

Arya and Bran trust in and would support Jon in any decision he makes. If Jon thinks that allying with Cersei is needed to fight the WW, Arya will go along with it. Sansa knows this and that's why she and LF were contemplating getting rid of Arya before the light bulb went on over her head.

6 hours ago, screamin said:

FWIW, I think Sansa WILL manage to flatter, soothe and outright bribe them to mostly stay in line, but she will be likely rightly miffed at Jon making her job so much harder than it needed to be, by neglecting minimal communication of info his regent really could have used.

Haha! So Sansa should be able to make a case for Jon bending the knee? So all this complaining for two pages about Jon not giving her information about food stores, Lannister armies, Cersei, Dany, Dothraki stealing grass, poor peasants starving, Jon being coerced - all that was for nothing? Sansa can manage to do her job anyway?

What is Sansa going to bribe the Northerners with? How is she going to soothe their feelings and flatter them?

Does Lyanna Mormont flatter and soothe them?  You want to know how to deal with them?

Edited September 9, 2017 by anamika

[Oscirus]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

Because at this point it does not matter!!!!!!! What part of 'There is an existential threat marching on the North and squabbling over petty politics can come later' is hard to understand here? As far as Sansa is concerned, Jon bend the knee in return for Dany's help to save the North and the rest of the 7K - seems to be a reasonable enough trade when their very survival is at stake.

If it doesn't matter then why didn't Jon do it right away? Why did Dany have to prove herself before Jon bended the knee? Hell, why did Jon put his own pride over negotiating with Cersei? As far as he knows, Cersei would've kept her word in exchange for neutrality, so why did Jon feel need to commit the North to a war for something they already had?  Do you think that the Northerners don't realize the implications of what Jon just did? Why should Sansa have to be the one to clean up Jon's fuck ups? 

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

If it doesn't matter then why didn't Jon do it right away? Why did Dany have to prove herself before Jon bended the knee?

Yes, he was wrong. In the caves, when Dany told him that she would help if he bend the knee, he should have done it. Dany was right - was his pride more important than the survival of his people? He realizes he is wrong and bends the knee.

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Hell, why did Jon put his own pride over negotiating with Cersei? As far as he knows, Cersei would've kept her word in exchange for neutrality, so why did Jon feel need to commit the North to a war for something they already had? 

In the case of Cersei, the situation is different. Lying to Cersei or breaking his pledge to Dany means that promises or deals mean nothing anymore. Westeros still needs to function after the great war and Westeros works on a system of rules, laws, oaths, vows, rights etc. If words have no meaning anymore, then Westeros will not function.

Quote

Why should Sansa have to be the one to clean up Jon's fuck ups? 

What exactly does she need to clean up?

At this point I think we are just rehashing the same arguments over and over again. I think I have pretty much said everything there is to say on the topic. Let's just agree to disagree.

I think Jon is ultimately a character who will do what he thinks is right even if it goes against the grain. This goes back to the advice that Maester Aemon gives him:

Quote

Jon: I need your advice. There’s something I want to do, something I have to do. But it’ll divide the Night’s Watch. Bitterly. Half the men will hate me the moment I give the order.
Aemon: Half the men hate you already, Lord Commander. Do it.
Jon: But you don’t know what it is.
Aemon: That doesn’t matter. You do. You will find little joy in your command. But with luck, you will find the strength to do what needs to be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy, and let the man be born.

He then does the thing that the men hate him for and gets killed for it.

Later when he is resurrected:

Quote

Davos Seaworth: You go on. You fight for as long as you can. You clean up as much of the shit as you can.

Jon Snow: I don't know how to do that. I thought I did, but... I failed.

Davos Seaworth: Good. Now go fail again.

Davos is basically tell him that if need be, go make the same unpopular, hard decisions again.

So Jon is not going to flinch from doing what he thinks is right, even if these decisions are extremely unpopular with the Northern Lords or Sansa. When he gets North with Dany, he will deal with it.

Edited September 9, 2017 by anamika

[SimoneS]

20 hours ago, qtpye said:

Olenna learned from her mistakes.  She tried to warn Danny getting rid of Cersei first would be the best way to save lives.  If Danny was sitting on the Iron Throne now, then the Fellowship of the Wight would not have happened and NK would not be riding a dragon.

Exactly. I know Dany doesn't want to slaughter her subjects, but if she had wiped out Cersei and company in the Red Keep, she would still have Viserion, the Tyrells, Martells, and Yara and her Iron Born fleet.  Even at the meeting with Cersei in the final episode, she should have had Drogon burn Euron, Cersei and Jaime and be done with it. I still cannot believe she let Euron sail away with that fleet. She should have taken her dragons and scattered its ashes in the sea. Now even more of her subjects will die needlessly because she will have to fight Cersei after she is done with the NK.

 

23 hours ago, crowceilidh said:

Rewatched last night and enjoyed the scene around the strategy map quite a lot.  The teenageryness of Jon and Dany trying to stay together on the boat and it being clocked by everyone - I thought Emilia Clarke did an amazing job of seeming like a very young girl with an uncontrollable crush trying to justify her behaviour to Jorah and Tyrion so that they wouldn't see the REAL reason she wanted to arrive by ship.  Also, I don't see how arriving by ship precludes arriving at WF by dragon. There's quite a lot of land to cross no matter where they make landfall.

LOL! It was definitely a sweet teenage courtship as Jon and Dany maneuvered to stay together. 

Edited September 9, 2017 by SimoneS

[screamin]

9 hours ago, anamika said:

Since the Vale food supplies has never been brought up or mentioned on the show, if we assume that the Vale is donating food to the North, then lets also assume that Dorne's untouched food stores is being send North by Dany to feed her armies. 

They supposedly made Jon king over Ned's trueborn heir because they thought Jon was the right man to lead them. So they should trust in what he is doing. I don't think they need raven messages every day from Jon:

- 'Dear Sansa, met Dany today. She looks beautiful. We negotiated.

- 'Dear Sansa, my ship got taken away :( 

- 'Dear Sansa, I have asked for Dragonglass.

- 'Dear Sansa, I am mining Dragonglass.  The weather here is awesome.

- 'Dear Sansa, I petted a dragon today :D

And as mentioned many times previously, it was better that Jon did not send messages to Sansa considering that she was feeding all information directly to LF who was using it to manipulate her.  Sansa's main issue with Jon is that he does not ask for her opinion or do what she wants and no matter how many messages Jon sends, he is not going to ask for her opinions or do what she wants - they think too differently. And even from an audience perspective, why should he? Show Sansa as written is rather dumb and has nothing useful to contribute. According to you she needs detailed instructions from Jon to do anything and has no new ideas. Jon probably gave her instructions to start storing up on the food and she is just following orders. That's why she kept LF around her - someone who flatters her ego, praises her intellect and thinks she should be queen. 

Also sending ravens is a two way street you know? Bran send Jon a raven informing him that the WW was marching on Eastwatch.  If Sansa wants information so desperately, why can't she send Jon a raven demanding that he tell her what he was doing? I am sure he would respond to that...

But think of all the food saved!! And the poor starving peasants! So if these Northern Lords and their men don't want to help, let them go back to their castles and die. Because food is more important than needing lots of men to fight. We need to think of the food!

Arya and Bran trust in and would support Jon in any decision he makes. If Jon thinks that allying with Cersei is needed to fight the WW, Arya will go along with it. Sansa knows this and that's why she and LF were contemplating getting rid of Arya before the light bulb went on over her head.

Haha! So Sansa should be able to make a case for Jon bending the knee? So all this complaining for two pages about Jon not giving her information about food stores, Lannister armies, Cersei, Dany, Dothraki stealing grass, poor peasants starving, Jon being coerced - all that was for nothing? Sansa can manage to do her job anyway?

What is Sansa going to bribe the Northerners with? How is she going to soothe their feelings and flatter them?

Does Lyanna Mormont flatter and soothe them?  You want to know how to deal with them?

What do you suppose Lyanna "We know no king but the King in the North, whose name is Stark"  Mormont will make of Jon's sudden handing over the right to rule her to Dany, who she doesn't know, whose name is not Stark? If she's your ideal exemplar of what a Northern lord SHOULD be, her misgivings should be taken into account as worthy of consideration. IMO, she might be more accepting of it IF she had prior knowledge that Dany was a decent, trustworthy person, and not just a power hungry conqueror to whom Jon had handed over power in his desperation to get men and dragons, and/or a manipulator leading Jon by the nose or other interesting body part who will betray him and the North the moment it becomes convenient.

And that prior knowledge would be easily conveyed in the two (2) ravenmail messages I suggested before. That string of texts you wrote above would have been unnecessary (though they ARE adorable). Look, when Jon left the North to go see Dany, he KNEW that all his lords (even Ideal Northern Lord Lyanna Mormont) didn't want him to do it, because they were afraid he would be killed by Dany. As their king, IMO he owed to to them to allay those fears by communicating with them regularly to reassure them that the worst is not happening. And in handing over the rule to someone else, he owes it to his people to reassure them that in doing so, he is NOT handing them over to a tyrant who will mistreat and exploit them. Since Jon KNOWS for a fact that Dany is not this kind of ruler due to the things she's done to prove it, his failure to communicate these things to his people IS a careless mistake that will cause trouble, with no possible reason to justify it.

Quote

And as mentioned many times previously, it was better that Jon did not send messages to Sansa considering that she was feeding all information directly to LF who was using it to manipulate her.  Sansa's main issue with Jon is that he does not ask for her opinion or do what she wants and no matter how many messages Jon sends, he is not going to ask for her opinions or do what she wants - they think too differently. And even from an audience perspective, why should he? Show Sansa as written is rather dumb and has nothing useful to contribute. According to you she needs detailed instructions from Jon to do anything and has no new ideas. Jon probably gave her instructions to start storing up on the food and she is just following orders. That's why she kept LF around her - someone who flatters her ego, praises her intellect and thinks she should be queen. 

Okay, so now you're saying Jon didn't send messages to Sansa because he knew she was totally manipulated by LF and not very bright and would just screw things up further with any information he gave her - but THIS is the person he put in charge of the North while he was gone, instead of, say, Davos? Look, either Jon is a competent king and therefore judged Sansa as being capable enough to manage the North while he's gone, OR he judged her as the complete stupid puppet of treacherous LF - but handed her control of the North anyway, because Jon is an incompetent king. Pick one. You can't have it both ways.

[Pogojoco]

The food situation is a flaw in the writing of this show - it's an issue when the show needs it to be an issue and isn't when they need it not to be. 

Much like Jon's lying- he'll lie to Mance Rayder, Tormund and Ygritte for two seasons of the show and will lie to Danaerys about coming back from the dead when she asks him a direct question about knives to the heart this season, but he won't lie to Cersei when the plot requires her to storm off and Tyrion to go talk to her. He gives a big dramatic speech about it and talks about Ned, but that's not actually consistent. The plot requires him to be inconsistent. 

Much like Tyrion's wavering intelligence. 

Edited September 9, 2017 by Pogojoco

[Oscirus]

17 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

The food situation is a flaw in the writing of this show - it's an issue when the show needs it to be an issue and isn't when they need it not to be. 

Much like Jon's lying- he'll lie to Mance Rayder, Tormund and Ygritte for two seasons of the show and will lie to Danaerys about coming back from the dead when she asks him a direct question about knives to the heart this season, but he won't lie to Cersei when the plot requires her to storm off and Tyrion to go talk to her. He gives a big dramatic speech about it and talks about Ned, but that's not actually consistent. The plot requires him to be inconsistent. 

Much like Tyrion's wavering intelligence. 

Not so much a flaw as much as something they don't give a shit about. I believe one of the directors had an interview where they insinuated not giving a damn about the small stuff as long as they were able to maintain their audience.

Truth be told, I'm sure that this won't be an issue next season as the reveal happens and everybody forgets the implications of what jon has done.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Oscirus

[Pogojoco]

I consider not caring about small things that characters mention or talk extensively about and then forget about depending on the episode and the show runners not giving a shit about that to be a flaw. 

Though them not caring as long as the audience stays doesn't surprise me. (I don't watch any behind the scenes stuff.) It's all "Look at the DRAGONS!!!!" 

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Pogojoco said:

I consider not caring about small things that characters mention or talk extensively about and then forget about depending on the episode and the show runners not giving a shit about that to be a flaw. 

Though them not caring as long as the audience stays doesn't surprise me. (I don't watch any behind the scenes stuff.) It's all "Look at the DRAGONS!!!!" 

Why should the writers care about what they consider to be minutiae when the audience continues to grow? I enjoy our discussions, but I never lose sight of the fact that millions of people watch GoT and other tv shows and most of them simply don't care about the food for the armies or how Dany and Jon are related or that Jon bent the knee and on and on. D&D know this which is they focus on creating a show that entertains those millions of people so they and HBO can make profit and they have been successful. 

[WindyNights]

8 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Not so much a flaw as much as something they don't give a shit about. I believe one of the directors had an interview where they insinuated not giving a damn about the small stuff as long as they were able to maintain their audience.

Truth be told, I'm sure that this won't be an issue next season as the reveal happens and everybody forgets the implications of what jon has done.

That's been increasingly one of the show's biggest problems since season 4. 

They have set pieces and situations in mind and logic be damned on how they get to there

Like the wight hunt or Sansa's rape or Cersei taking out the Tyrells and Dornish. 

[GraceK]

To be honest I never got a bad vibe from Sansa this season. I've heard other posters mention that the original script has her power hungry and want to be Queen, but Sophie Turner certainly didn't portray it. I honestly got the impression she was sincerely happy to see her siblings, and was just doing what Jon asked to the best of her abilities. I never got the idea she wanted to usurp Jon...so I'm wondering what on earth the writers were genuinely trying to convey.

[tangerine95]

3 hours ago, GraceK said:

To be honest I never got a bad vibe from Sansa this season. I've heard other posters mention that the original script has her power hungry and want to be Queen, but Sophie Turner certainly didn't portray it. I honestly got the impression she was sincerely happy to see her siblings, and was just doing what Jon asked to the best of her abilities. I never got the idea she wanted to usurp Jon...so I'm wondering what on earth the writers were genuinely trying to convey.

Same,my impression was that she was just trying to protect her family and herself and that's why she was arguing with Jon so much because she didn't want him to make mistakes like Ned or Robb.But apparently according to the outlines she was tempted to become queen and resented that she wasn't.Which is pretty weird to me since I always thought she wanted her home and family and not at all a crown anymore.