S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[ulkis]

35 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

As of right now, it just seems like a cool Easter egg. I don't understand why it matters that Jon is the legitimate heir. Perhaps it's better explained in the books. There isn't a Targaryean army parked somewhere that wants to support the rightful heir. Dany still has the greater forces. I don't really see Jon as presented caring about the Iron Throne and who would back him? Does the prophecy have a morality clause like "bastards need not apply"? 

So Dany can be mistrustful of his intentions, I suppose.

And I used to think that Jon would use it to pressure her to give the North autonomy, as in, he wouldn't press his claim if she did that, but now, not so much.

[Francie]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Exactly, Tywin had told Tyrion more than once that he wished he was dead and Cersei had tried to kill him.  If the plea bargain was in place, and going to be honored, there would be no need for Shea to lie on the witness stand about Tyrion.  Tywin might have kept the deal, but Tyrion had no reason to trust he would.

Besides that, why should an innocent man go along with a kangaroo court railroading him for a crime he did not commit?  

Jaime, "Do you trust me?" Tyrion nods. Tywin isn't Joffrey. Tywin only gets what he wants if Jaime gets what he wants -- Tyrion sent to the wall. 

Tywin had Shae testify to twist the life and humiliate Tyrion.  Now, to me, that was unnecessary and actually against Tywin's character, because he would have preferred to not have the Lannister name dragged through any further mud, but that is, quite evidently, the reason. 

Tyrion would go along with it because the alternative was death. And, in his own internal monologue in the books, he realizes that he said and did things that got him to look so guilty.  He chides himself for hanging himself with his own words. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Francie

[sumiregusa]

Seeing Cersei's terrified face after watching that wight come at her was almost as beautiful as Kit Harington's bare ass.

Edited August 28, 2017 by sumiregusa

[Francie]

13 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

While potentially true, I think he was right to conclude that the trial wasn't concerned with justice, and that Cersei would never allow him to live in any capacity. Ned was promised the Wall by these people.

And Ned would have gotten the wall, but for Joffrey. 

[Bryce Lynch]

Is there any way for the NK and his army to get to Essos?  The characters keep talking about the "end of the world", but it was stated that the wights can't swim, so they could not threaten the Iron Islands. If they can't reach the Iron Islands,  how would they get to Essos?   If they can't, the real estate that Dany acquired along Slavers Bay and in the Great Grass Sea would skyrocket in value. :)

[Macbeth]

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

They've gone out of their way to make Tyrion the second most moral man on this show, I doubt he betrays Dany because he's all of a sudden in love with her and mad at her for hooking up with Jon.

No.  I agree there is no way Tyrion would betray Dany consciously.  Jaime is Tyrion's Achilles heel.   That is why he wanted to lay siege on King's Landing and not directly confront the Lannister army.  He wants to kill Cersei, not Jaime.

But now that Jaime has broken with Cersei.... I believe the brothers will unite.

What to do with the problem with Bronn.  He didn't see the wight.  Will he believe it?  What will he do?  If  JF and LH were not so hostile with each other - Bronn would be the natural replacement of Jaime as head of the army.  Cersei would promise him the Vale as his reward.  And at this moment there is no army defending it.  However, given the animosity between the actors.... What to do with Bronn? 

[VCRTracking]

I feel Cersei sparing Tyrion was less about "familial bond" and more about fearing reprisal from Dany. I can not believe after these seven seasons she wouldn't have had Tyrion killed. Also Tyrion made a good case that he was the only one keeping Dany in check this whole time.

Edited August 28, 2017 by VCRTracking

[GraceK]

I think it would be pretty cool if the pack of dire wolves, lead by Nymeria, helped fight the WW.' It would make sense with what Sansa said at the end, that The Pack survives. Literal  Dragons and wolves going into battle Together would be amazing next season.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, Francie said:

Jaime, "Do you trust me?" Tyrion nods. Tywin isn't Joffrey. Tywin only gets what he wants if Jaime gets what he wants -- Tyrion sent to the wall. 

Tywin had Shae testify to twist the life and humiliate Tyrion.  Now, to me, that was unnecessary and actually against Tywin's character, because he would have preferred to not have the Lannister name dragged through any further mud, but that is, quite evidently, the reason. 

Tyrion would go along with it because the alternative was death. And, in his own internal monologue in the books, he realizes that he said and did things that got him to look so guilty.  He chides himself for hanging himself with his own words. 

I get why Tyrion would go along with a plea bargain, because of all the threatening things he said, as well as the false testimony and the circumstantial evidence against him.  But, people are blaming Myrcella's death on Tyrion's "pride" for not going along with the plea bargain.  Even if we assume Tywin and Cersei would have honored it, there is nothing prideful or morally wrong with an innocent man fighting false charges against him.  So, to blame Myrcella's death on it makes no sense to me.  

[ulkis]

26 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Marriage between Aunt/Nephew or Uncle/Niece have historically not been that uncommon.   In fact, a ruling by the highest court in NYS legalized it in NY a few years ago.  I'm not a fan of it, but by GOT and Targaryen standards, it is pretty normal.  Given that Targaryen brothers and sisters were commonly wed, I don't think the fact that Jon and Dany are related necessarily prevents it from being a "end game" relationship.  

Neither do I, but it's not normal by GoT standards. Jaime said that the people wouldn't like it when Cersei revealed him as the baby's father, but maybe he meant just cause he and Cersei aren't very popular.

Relating to the topic, I've seen one or two people say aunt/nephew or vice versa was common in the middle ages - I don't know how often it happened, but it definitely wasn't just accepted like no big deal. Richard III had to go and quell rumors that he was going to marry his niece, Elizabeth of York.

(Editing to say no pun intended when I used the phrase "relating to the topic" lol.)

Edited August 28, 2017 by ulkis

[Francie]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Marcella was a princess, she was never going to have a choice in any marriage. If it wasn't Tyrion, it would have been Tywin selling her to the highest bidder. At least she was gonna marry someone she loved and who loved her back . It can't be laid at Tyrions feet that she was poisoned by her MOTHERS enemy.

It can be laid at Tyrion's feet that he sent Myrcella to the very realm that was still reeling from the enemies his father, Tyrion, created.  Myrcella wasn't killed because of Cersei.  Myrcella was killed because of Elia and Ellara's "the only good Lannister is a dead Lannister" attitude. And Tyrion sent Myrcella there, knowing the hatred the Dornish had for his family. If it wasn't Ellara, it would have been someone else -- just like it nearly came to pass in the books. 

Look, bottom line, you're going to hang everything on Cersei.  She pulled every lever she could to get Tyrion convicted, and that was entirely because she truly believed Tyrion killed him.  But the hatred happened because of Tywin.  Joffrey was murdered by a Tyrell.  Tyrion issued threats to Joffrey and made his contempt very well known.  Tyrion made the decision to put Myrcella into the hands of the Dornish.  You can put it all on Cersei.  I put the lion's share on Tyrion, because he sent her there. He's the guy at the top of the command at that point, and that's the decision he made.

And we can point to different facts that allows each of us to feel justified in our decision.  Personally, I'm glad that Tyrion did, finally, own up to his role in bringing about Myrcella's death, and expressed remorse for the loss of her. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Francie

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I feel Cersei sparing Tyrion was less about "familial bond" and more about fearing reprisal from Dany. I can not believe after these seven seasons she wouldn't have had Tyrion killed. Also Tyrion made a good case that he was the only one keeping Dany in check this whole time.

I think Cersei kept Tyrion alive because:

a) Without doing so she couldn't sell her lie that she was sending her troops North to fight the NK's army.

b) She feared that Dany would incinerate her and the Red Keep with dragon fire.  

I think Dany and Jon treated Cersei as too much of an equal.  She was holding no real cards.  They should have told her, "Send your troops to fight the NK or we will kill you and your armies, destroying as much as KL is necessary, and then head North to fight the NK and the wights.  

[Lady Iris]

Why couldn't Lyanna just reach out via e-raven to Ned that she wasn't kidnapped or raped or whatevered? Wouldn't that have put the kibosh on Robert's Rebellion?

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, Francie said:

It can be laid at Tyrion's feet that he sent Myrcella to the very realm that was still reeling from the enemies his father, Tyrion, created.  Myrcella wasn't killed because of Cersei.  Myrcella was killed because of Elia and Ellara's "the only good Lannister is a dead Lannisger" attitude. And Tyrion sent Myrcella there, knowing the hatred the Dornish had for his family. If it wasn't Ellara, it would have been someone else -- just like it nearly came to pass in the books. 

Look, bottom line, you're going to hang everything on Cersei.  She pulled every lever she could to get Tyrion convicted, and that was entirely because she truly believed Tyrion killed him.  But the hatred happened because of Tywin.  Joffrey was murdered by a Tyrell.  Tyrion issued threats to Joffrey and made his contempt very well known.  Tyrion made the decision to put Myrcella into the hands of the Dornish.  You can put it all on Cersei.  I put the lion's share on Tyrion, because he sent her there. He's the guy at the top of the command at that point, and that's the decision he made.

And we can point to different facts that allows each of us to feel justified in our decision.  Personally, I'm glad that Tyrion did, finally, own up to his role in bringing about Myrcella's death, and expressed remorse for the loss of her. 

It seems your just as determined to lay nothing on Cersi. It's all the evil men around her that are to blame for her decisions.

[Edith]

@anamika Jon always keeps his word..except for that whole Wildling plot when he pretended to betray the Night watch and the cavesex with Ygritte. But yeah sure he can't lie...

Edited August 28, 2017 by Edith

[Francie]

7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I get why Tyrion would go along with a plea bargain, because of all the threatening things he said, as well as the false testimony and the circumstantial evidence against him.  But, people are blaming Myrcella's death on Tyrion's "pride" for not going along with the plea bargain.  Even if we assume Tywin and Cersei would have honored it, there is nothing prideful or morally wrong with an innocent man fighting false charges against him.  So, to blame Myrcella's death on it makes no sense to me.  

You're twisting the argument or simply misunderstanding. And I assume you're addressing me because you're quoting me. If not, my apologies and I'm missing of whom you are making that accusation. 

Some have attempted to lay the blame for Myrcella's death on Cersei.  I've been unraveling each of those threads of thought and exposing the bedrock of those thoughts. 

I hold Tyrion responsible for Myrcella because he made the decision to send a lamb into a lion's den (house sigils put aside).  Tyrion needed to own that he set in motion events that led to her death. And, in this episode he did. That's it, pure and simple. 

[nodorothyparker]

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

So I just watched inside the episode and Jamie's reason for leaving Cersei is that she didn't tell him her plan? Are they serious? That's literally a worst reason than  the books.

They actually did characterize it as the straw that broke the camel's back, which is how I've been reading his storyline since last season with various characters in the Riverlands arc (excepting Brienne) throwing it in his face that he and by extension Lannisters weren't known for having honor and characters like Olenna this season driving home that Cersei is indeed the reality challenged monster people have always painted her to be.  In Cersei's wonderful haunted exchange with Tyrion she throws out that she doesn't care at all about building a better world, mirroring the weak justification Jaime had tried on Olenna that if they had to break a few eggs along the way in Cersei building a better world it wouldn't matter how they got there in the end.   Cersei's pretty clear in their final showdown that she considers all the people they've just been meeting with and all the countless thousands? millions? in the path of the white walkers expendable as long as she gets to win in the end, so no better world.   In his part in making the dragonpit meeting happen and in his two lovely if short exchanges with Tyrion and Brienne, Jaime has an audience of the two people in the world who unwaveringly do still believe in him and believe that he has honor and then there's Cersei baldly telling him that in going behind his back with Euron and then lying to the assembled gathering that she preemptively made him out to be a liar even when he was legitimately operating on good faith.  And that's before she ratchets things up to go full scale abusive partner on him calling him stupid and threatening him while also dangling that she's still keeping the man who's repeatedly belittled him and tried to emasculate him on the marriage hook.  

I did love Jaime's look of utter astonishment at Brienne's "fuck loyalty," basically fuck honor and oaths for the bigger picture.  He knows how seriously she takes that sort of thing and she's always been something of a catalyst for him in that regard.  That almost certainly figured into the final showdown with Cersei as Cersei was watching them interact and watching them watch each other too.

The hook of this show for me will always be the twisted Lannister family dynamics rather than any CGI battles, and this episode at least brought that.  Tyrion and Cersei were wonderful together offering up so many layers of years of pain and loathing with Tyrion going a long way in convincing me here that at least part of why he's been such an ineffective hand and terrible strategist is because his heart isn't fully in it.  However much he may truly believe Dany will be the better queen and want that to happen, part of him has been effectively maneuvering with one hand tied behind his back as he's spun and spun trying to figure out a way to make that happen that doesn't also mean the brother he loves and even the sister he hates has to die.

[ShellsandCheese]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Cersei kept Tyrion alive because:

a) Without doing so she couldn't sell her lie that she was sending her troops North to fight the NK's army.

b) She feared that Dany would incinerate her and the Red Keep with dragon fire.  

I think Dany and Jon treated Cersei as too much of an equal.  She was holding no real cards.  They should have told her, "Send your troops to fight the NK or we will kill you and your armies, destroying as much as KL is necessary, and then head North to fight the NK and the wights.  

Agreed on the part about Dany and Jon. Cersei is outnumbered and she has no real power at this point, other than being on The Iron Throne. Instead of asking they should have said this is how it's going to be and we can re-evaluate where we are after we defeat The Night King and his army. At this point, Cersei is beyond delusional. She ain't keeping that throne, the sooner she realizes it or someone forces her to realize the better off Westeros will be. The woman is living on borrowed time at this point. Jon and the Northern Army along with Dany and her Dothraki, Unsullied, and Dragons have the upper hand here. 

[YaddaYadda]

3 minutes ago, Francie said:

It can be laid at Tyrion's feet that he sent Myrcella to the very realm that was still reeling from the enemies his father, Tyrion, created.  Myrcella wasn't killed because of Cersei.  Myrcella was killed because of Elia and Ellara's "the only good Lannister is a dead Lannisger" attitude. And Tyrion sent Myrcella there, knowing the hatred the Dornish had for his family. If it wasn't Ellara, it would have been someone else -- just like it nearly came to pass in the books. 

That's not entirely true though. The only reason Myrcella was injured was because Arianne fucked Arys Oakheart's brains out and got him in on her scheme to crown Myrcella. Doran and Ellaria in the books had no intention of hurting Myrcella, Trystane was very fond of her and she was actually having a seemingly normal enough life. And what happened to Myrcella can be traced back to Doran and his schemes and how insecure Arianne felt with her own claim to Dorne. 

The show, sure, I can see it. The books, no. Arianne didn't set out to hurt Myrcella, and when Doran was told about her scheme, he should have intercepted Myrcella instead of letting things go as far as they did. 

[MarySNJ]

50 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yes, I can understand Cersei for blaming Tyrion for sending Myrcella to Dorne in the first place (she hated him for it from the start).  But, there were a series of things done by people other than Tyrion (Cersei, Tywin, The Mountain, Olenna and Little Finger) that actually put Myrcella's life in danger and caused her to be murdered.  She was in no danger by merely being in Dorne.  She and the prince were in love with each other, and Oberyn would not take out his grudge with Tywin on her, as he made it a point that they don't kill little girls in Dorne.  

I agree. I'm just pointing out that from Cersei's already biased perception of Tyrion, he's the one who put her daughter in danger in the first place. This isn't rational. Myrcella was poisoned in Dorne where she should have been safe, and Tyrion is Cersei's go-to scapegoat. 

[GraceK]

11 minutes ago, Francie said:

You're twisting the argument or simply misunderstanding. And I assume you're addressing me because you're quoting me. If not, my apologies and I'm missing of whom you are making that accusation. 

Some have attempted to lay the blame for Myrcella's death on Cersei.  I've been unraveling each of those threads of thought and exposing the bedrock of those thoughts. 

I hold Tyrion responsible for Myrcella because he made the decision to send a lamb into a lion's den (house sigils put aside).  Tyrion needed to own that he set in motion events that led to her death. And, in this episode he did. That's it, pure and simple. 

I'm assuming you mean me when you say attempting to blame Cersi. I honestly don't JUST blame Cersi for Mrycellas death. A lot of factors contributed to it. The sand snakes hatred of Cersi and the Lannisters are the ones completely st fault for killing an innocent girl. I'm just pointing out that Tyrian honestly had her best interests at heart, and she herself was genuinely happy there and didn't want to come back to Kings Landing. I also think that Cersei insisting on having Tyrian executed also UNWITTINGLY set in motions the events that led to Oberons death and the desire for revenge. Cersis hands are not clean.

thats what's tragic...Cerseis love for power and mean spirited actions come back to bite her on the ass consistently, especially when it came to her children. She destroys herself and doesn't even seem to realize it...she scapegoats others .

Edited August 28, 2017 by GraceK

[Francie]

7 minutes ago, GraceK said:

It seems your just as determined to lay nothing on Cersi. It's all the evil men around her that are to blame for her decisions.

Not at all. I recommend reading all of my posts before lobbing such an accusation. 

Changing gears back to this episode -- who's to blame for bringing down the wall? I wonder how the Westerosians are going to great their new overlord, now that she's unwittingly responsible for bringing 100,000 zombies to come kill them. 

[ulkis]

1 hour ago, stillshimpy said:

However, the show decided to voice over about the Aunt and nephew thing while they were doing the do specifically to send the audience a message that it is going to be a giant issue once they hit land.  Once they learn what they have done, it's going to trouble them both, if for no other reason than to illustrate that Dany and Jon as potential ruling entities have nothing in common with Cersei and Jaime who have been all "Yay, incest!"  

I don't know, I don't think Dany will be freaked out, except that it is a threat to her claim to the throne. (Which, in turn, will probably freak out Jon even more that she isn't freaked out, heh.)

At least, that is how I feel the book versions would react. Show version is a bit more of a crapshoot.

What struck me more even that this episode's voiceover was last episode when Dany pointed out that the only other person who called her Dany besides Jon was her brother. Not exactly what you highlight if the point is epic love story. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by ulkis

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Neither do I, but it's not normal by GoT standards. Jaime said that the people wouldn't like it when Cersei revealed him as the baby's father, but maybe he meant just cause he and Cersei aren't very popular.

Relating to the topic, I've seen one or two people say aunt/nephew or vice versa was common in the middle ages - I don't know how often it happened, but it definitely wasn't just accepted like no big deal. Richard III had to go and quell rumors that he was going to marry his niece, Elizabeth of York.

(Editing to say no pun intended when I used the phrase "relating to the topic" lol.)

It seems  that brother-sister marriages were frowned upon, except among the Targaryens, but this is an Aunt-Nephew relationship, not brother-sister.  Also, along with the incest, the fact that Cersei's children with Jaime were bastards and usurpers was also a big issue, possibly the bigger issue to many in  Westeros.

There were numerous Avunculate marriages among European nobles and royalty.  I'm not sure it was considered totally normal, but it happened a lot.  It is currently illegal in most nations, but is legal in Brazil, Argentina, Russia, The Netherlands, Austria, New Zealand, Australia, Malaysia, and New York State.  

I personally find it icky, but there seems to be enough current and historic acceptance of if to make it plausible in a fantasy universe, especially one with some rather raunchy moral practices.  

[YaddaYadda]

A+ for Cersei's short-sleeved coat.

[Francie]

7 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I'm assuming you mean me when you say attempting to blame Cersi. I honestly don't JUST blame Cersi for Mrycellas death. A lot of favors contributed to it. The sand snakes hatred of Cersi and the Lannisters are the ones completely st fault for killing an innocent girl. I'm just pointing out that Tyrian honestly had her best interests at heart, and she herself was genuinely happy there and didn't want to come back to Kings Landing. I also think that Cersei insisting on having Tyrian executed also UNWITTINGLY set in motions the events that led to Oberons death and the desire for revenge. Cersis hands are not clean.

I honestly haven't been tracking posters, just responding to comments, so I have no idea if I'm referencing one of your comments or not.

On your post here, I largely agree. Cersei makes horrible choices, makes bad decisions, is nearly wholesalely unempathetic (and whatever empathy she lost somewhere shortly after the battle of the blackwater and when her drinking problem began), and operates, alternatively, from a place of self-aggrandizement and a place of panic-ed self-interest. 

I do hold firm that Tyrion was as motivated by playing the game of thrones -- he was practically drunk on the euphoria of how "successful" he thought he was at the game -- as he was for Myrcella's safety.  I judge him because he was the individual with the authority to send her away, and he exercised that authority, and it resulted -- through a series of events -- in her death. If he wanted to be the big guy who was the shot caller, then adopt a "the buck stops here" attitude, and take responsibility. Which, again, I think he did in this episode. That's one of the reasons why I loved the scene so much. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Francie

[Neko]

Three random things I loved...

-Arya telling Sansa she couldn't have survived what Sansa did, and Sansa telling Arya she was the strongest person she knew.  I'm glad the sisters are on the same page; it reminds me of when Ned told them that families always need each other in winter, and it gives me all the toasty feels.  Aaaawww.

-Cersei thinking she was the queen who was going to make the dramatic late entrance, only to be upstaged by younger, more beautiful Dany (hmm), swooping in on Drogon.  Nice.

-Jaime finally wising up and leaving Cersei.  THANK.  GOD.

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, Francie said:

You're twisting the argument or simply misunderstanding. And I assume you're addressing me because you're quoting me. If not, my apologies and I'm missing of whom you are making that accusation. 

Some have attempted to lay the blame for Myrcella's death on Cersei.  I've been unraveling each of those threads of thought and exposing the bedrock of those thoughts. 

I hold Tyrion responsible for Myrcella because he made the decision to send a lamb into a lion's den (house sigils put aside).  Tyrion needed to own that he set in motion events that led to her death. And, in this episode he did. That's it, pure and simple. 

You can argue that Tyrion sending Myrcella to Dorne put her in danger and eventually led to her death, though I would still argue she was perfectly safe there (or as safe as you can be anywhere in GOT) until other events happened.

I was refuting the argument made by others that Tyrion's "pride" in refusing to take the plea bargain and demanding trial by combat, made him responsible for Myrcella's death.  I think that is nonsense, as an innocent man have every right to defend his innocence.  

[stagmania]

51 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

So it seems that the show threw out a clue as to the direction they are taking this in and that it promises to be a source of emotional pain for both characters when they learn what they have accidentally done. 

Yeah, I'm not disputing that. The post you quoted was in response to a poster casting judgment on other viewers for expressing anything other than disgust at the pairing.

[FnkyChkn34]

19 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

Why couldn't Lyanna just reach out via e-raven to Ned that she wasn't kidnapped or raped or whatevered? Wouldn't that have put the kibosh on Robert's Rebellion?

No, because she still ran away with Rhaegar and slighted Robert.  Plus, everyone wanted all Targaryans dead, and that would have put Jon/Aegon VI in danger.

[GraceK]

22 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Cersei kept Tyrion alive because:

a) Without doing so she couldn't sell her lie that she was sending her troops North to fight the NK's army.

b) She feared that Dany would incinerate her and the Red Keep with dragon fire.  

I think Dany and Jon treated Cersei as too much of an equal.  She was holding no real cards.  They should have told her, "Send your troops to fight the NK or we will kill you and your armies, destroying as much as KL is necessary, and then head North to fight the NK and the wights.  

I agree with all of this. All this accomplished is what Cersei wants, a momentary reprieve to strengthen herself and her position. If Dany had just used the power she had to begin with, Viserion would still be alive and Kings landing and their armies would have been hers to use against the WW. This is so obviously a way to keep Cersei around that it's annoying. 

[YaddaYadda]

22 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

Why couldn't Lyanna just reach out via e-raven to Ned that she wasn't kidnapped or raped or whatevered? Wouldn't that have put the kibosh on Robert's Rebellion?

I think it comes down to circumstances and not taking into account how people will react. Who would think that Brandon would rush to KL and demand Rhaegar come out and die? I get where he's coming from if he thought Rhaegar had slighted his sister's honor when he gave her the crown of roses. But it's one thing for him to go to KL and shout treason and him going there and demand an audience with him.

[arjumand]

56 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I am in agreement with those who said it is refreshing that Jon didn't lie to Cersei.  I'm glad we have at least one character on this show who leads by example.

Ok...boatsex.  Sigh.  What can really be said?  I mean, if D&D are going to take us there, at least make the trip worthwhile for us.  I really wish the director had consulted with the team over at "Outlander" on how to do amazing love scenes beforehand because those guys know what they are doing.  It was pretty boring, but maybe that was the point.  We didn't even get Jon's hair out of the manbun, which is actually what I am most upset about...

 

53 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

 

Loved Sandor and Brienne talking about Arya, 

When Qyburn saw the wight, there were little hearts in his eyes. 

Ok, the posting thing is messing with me, so I'll try and edit as fast as I can.

Re. boatsex: they don't have to go to Outlander - how about Missandei and Grey Worm? They had 4 minutes of uninterrupted sex times, preceded by a long story which essentially meant: "I love you."

There was no intercutting with his parents' marriage, no worried dwarf hovering in the corridor outside, no 'cut to: lover's mother dying in childbirth'. 

Absolutely agree with Sandor and Brienne - they were like a divorced couple being proud of their kid.

Qyburn was practically drooling.

Edited August 28, 2017 by arjumand

[PTVjones]

Two questions I'd definitely appreciate some clarity on! 

1. Direwolves: Where is Ghost? He seemed to have vanished out of no where and no one mentions him. I feel like the last time I saw him was when Jon came back to life last season. I could be wrong but it just seems like... wouldn't Ghost have gone with John to Dragonstone or King's Landing... it just doesn't make any sense why he hasn't from a plot perspective. I mean... Ghost must be huge at this point. I've heard/read how CGI heavy and costly making the direwolves for the show but I personally think they overused the dragons this season and underused the direwolves. Who knows... maybe Ghost is chillin with Nymeria and convincing her to come back...

2. Where is Gendry? Was he at the hall? Is he dead? If he's dead I'll be very say and kind of frustrated as we waited years for him to come back to die in 3 episodes. I personally think he should come back and be a legitimate match for Arya, I think it would be an interesting arc for her character, as she's never really had a love interest. It's not like all female characters need one. Or maybe even Sansa... I just seem him with a Stark girl lol. 

[Francie]

16 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

You can argue that Tyrion sending Myrcella to Dorne put her in danger and eventually led to her death, though I would still argue she was perfectly safe there (or as safe as you can be anywhere in GOT) until other events happened.

 

Taking this to the Tyrion thread, if there is one. 

[Edith]

My very unpopular opinion 

Cersei is right. If dragons, dothraki, unsullied, wildlings and northern armies can't beat the dead, what good is the Lannister army going to do? If the dead win, they march south and kill her, if the living win, Team Dany  march south and kill her.

Cersei is a duplicitous snake backstabbing the "heroes" (who are responsible for bringing down the wall), but she's playing the clearly correct move. 

[GraceK]

Just now, Edith said:

My very unpopular opinion 

Cersei is right. If dragons, dothraki, unsullied, wildlings and northern armies can't beat the dead, what good is the Lannister army going to do? If the dead win, they march south and kill her, if the living win, Team Dany  march south and kill her.

Cersei is a duplicitous snake backstabbing the "heroes" (who are responsible for bringing down the wall), but she's playing the clearly correct move. 

I actually agree with this. She pretty much explained to the audience that this whole thing made no sense. There really was no reason to even meet with her, her army in comparison to Danys would make barely a ripple .  That's what's so infuriating about this plot point, is that Dany on her own had a pretty good army to fight the NK , especially with the northern alliance... all this parlay did was WEAKEN her considerably by the loss of her dragon and allow Cersei, who by this point really had NO chance, a way to grow stronger .

[ulkis]

Someone asked why Bran told Sam the truth and not Arya and Sansa. I'm guessing so once he finds out Dany burned his brother and dad he can yell "screw her! Jon's the heir!"

[Hana Chan]

1 minute ago, Edith said:

Cersei is right. If dragons, dothraki, unsullied, wildlings and northern armies can't beat the dead, what good is the Lannister army going to do? If the dead win, they march south and kill her, if the living win, Team Dany  march south and kill her.

Oh, I don't disagree that she was reading the situation accurately, but how she played it ended up completely isolating her. Working with Jon and Dany would have bought her leverage, at least enough to protect herself and her family. Instead she squandered that opportunity. Now she's made sure that Jon and Dany will seek to destroy her once the NK is dealt with, and worse, she's lost her brother/lover over her duplicity. Jamie now sees that what is going on is far bigger and more important than any of them, while Cersei has made it clear that she will sacrifice everyone and everything to protect her position. Whether or not her gamble pays off remains to be seen, but I wouldn't want to be in her shoes.

[Miles]

9 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Bran already broke the enchantments in the wall when he let the Night King touch him and later crossed the wall. The wall is a little like the Great Wall of China. Parts of it unmanned and crumbling. It hadn't been a problem in the past because no one had seen a wight or white walker in years. Additionally, the wall was still enchanted. Even without a dragon, the Night King could have thrown wights, wight giants, wight polar bears at the wall or the gates in the wall until they got through

There was no indication that Bran crossing the wall did anything to it's enchantments. That's just a half baked fan theory.

Also I'm pretty sure even throwing a ton of stuff at the wall won't do anything to it's enchantments.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, that one guy said:

It's not nice, but people behave like this all the time. Divorce sucks, particularly when you have kids and your spouse runs off with somebody s/he was cheating on you with. Typically, though, the grandparents don't respond by lighting people on fire. That's why he's called "the Mad King." Aerys II was an angry, evil, paranoid son of a bitch who was unfortunately King. His belief that everyone was conspiring against him became self-fulfilling prophecy. It's not Rhaegar's responsibility to manage, regulate or control the behavior of his abusive father who is also an absolute monarch.

But Rhaegar DID think it was his responsibility as Crown Prince of Westeros to do his best to try and remove mad Aerys from power for the good of the land as well as his own good - hence his attemped conspiracy with other lords at Harrenhal to depose Aerys, that Varys foiled. That was the moment I most liked Rhaegar - until he saw Lyanna, gave her the crown of Queen of Love and Beauty in front of the wife he'd just knocked up again after she nearly died from bearing his first child, and decided she was going to be his priority from then on.

Let's say that Aerys and Varys' precautions against Rhaegar dethroning him were too severe for Rhaegar to try again, and that therefore he could consider himself free of responsibility for trying to stop Aerys. That doesn't liberate him from his responsibility as husband and father. He knew he was going to do something that would cause huge political repercussions with Dorne, the Stormlands, and the North, and he knew he was going to leave his father to handle them. He should have made sure his wife and children were safely visiting their in-laws in Dorne instead of leaving them in Aerys' power. Yes, there are plenty of nasty divorce cases where one spouse cheats on another and leaves; that in itself is not a crime. But if that cheating spouse leaves his wife and children in custody of his father - who he KNOWS is  given to ordering everyone around and brooks no opposition, and carries deadly weapons around and fires them at people he perceives as a threat, and in fact sees threats in every shadow and accuses nearly everyone of being a threat sooner or later....then that's not merely a divorce case, that's clear and IMO criminal parental neglect, in both their world and ours.

[proserpina65]

I should've saved "Holy fuckballs!" for this week.

14 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Yessssss...LITTLEFINGER IS DEAD!

Did they have to explain that Dany is Jon's aunt DURING the boatsex? 

Rhaegar naming him "Aegon." You already had one son named Aegon, Rhaegar. Couldn't you get, like, a little creative? 

Rhaegar was dead by then.  Maybe Lyanna chose the name?

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

The fact that no one but Jon gets this is baffling. Especially the likes of Tyrion. Again, you don't see the hypocrisy of Tyrion asking Jon to lie about his deal with Dany and then thinking that Cersei will hold true to her word? If every person is like Cersei in Westeros, how would day to day life even work? How would kingdoms deal with each other, bargain and negotiate if no deal is sacred, everyone lies and there is no trust anymore? 

If Jon as king on the Iron Throne tries to negotiate with Yara Greyjoy why would she believe anything he says if he can just go back on his word?

Sticking to deals, oaths, vows, guest right etc. is the very fabric of Westeros - it's people like Tywin, Roose and now Cersei who don't hold true to these values. And they are reviled in Westeros for that. I don't expect Jon to be like them nor would I want him to be.

Why should Cersei agree to work with any of them under the terms Jon proposed? If he's not willing to lie to try to save the world, then I guess the wight threat and saving the world isn't as important as Jon says it is. 

[Bryndza]

Was that Thoros we saw in the front line of the walkers?

[sumiregusa]

I don't exclusively blame Tyrion for what happened to Cersei's children. Both of them played a part, and Cersei moreso because she doesn't think about anything but herself. She made Tyrion's trial happen. Oberyn fought, Mountain squashed him, Loose-Cannon Ellaria swore revenge, Myrcella dies. Cersei is a deplorable human being, she empowers The Faith, they call her on her shit, she gets put on trial, she skips the trial and explodes Tommen's wife, Tommen kills himself. Not sure what there is to discuss or debate about that but to each their own and all that jazz.

What I blame Tyrion for (and at this point, I'm blaming D&D for character assassination) is how all his counsel and decisions have cost Daenerys more than it cost Cersei. Maybe he's not a military strategist, maybe he's not the expert that Dany needed, but trusting Tyrion is what ended all Dany's alliances, lost her resources, and killed her dragon. That's even more of a direct correlation than Tyrion being spiteful and sending Myrcella off to Dorne for a while, or even killing Tywin and leaving the kingdom to Cersei. He has been trying to spare Cersei (and Jaime really) this whole time for no reason. It just looks like lazy writing to keep Cersei around at all.

Edited August 28, 2017 by sumiregusa
Spellerizing

[tangerine95]

22 minutes ago, Edith said:

My very unpopular opinion 

Cersei is right. If dragons, dothraki, unsullied, wildlings and northern armies can't beat the dead, what good is the Lannister army going to do? If the dead win, they march south and kill her, if the living win, Team Dany  march south and kill her.

Cersei is a duplicitous snake backstabbing the "heroes" (who are responsible for bringing down the wall), but she's playing the clearly correct move. 

Yeah I don't think her army will make that much of a difference that they can't do it without her but my impression was that the main thing they wanted from her was a truce so she doesn't take back all the kingdoms while Dany is off in the north and taking all her army with her leaving everything defenseless.

[Edith]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Why should Cersei agree to work with any of them under the terms Jon proposed? If he's not willing to lie to try to save the world, then I guess the wight threat and saving the world isn't as important as Jon says it is. 

Agree! Not only that but he has done it before! Night Watch/Wildlings thing. So this is either bad writing or Jon is just becoming stupider as time pass by!

[proserpina65]

14 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

Hmm.. I thought Bran was waiting to tell Jon about his parentage before anyone else, hence why he didn't tell Sansa/Arya, why would he randomly tell Sam...oh...right....plot point and of course Sam remembers and btw that was totally the Viserys actor playing Rhaegar..

It wasn't but he was deliberately styled to resemble Viserys.  In the first book there was mention of Viserys copying his older brother's look.

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Let's put this idea toward Arya then.  Let's say Robb does marry a Frey daughter.  But Arya was promised to a Frey as well.  Let's say she objects toward being given/sold to a Frey the way Lyanna objects to being given/sold to Robert.  She runs off and that causes the Red Wedding(cause Walder is going to be offended by any slight).  Are we going to blame Arya for not wanting to be  sold off?  One thing I believe is that just cause the times are different, it doesn't mean that a woman can't understand how she's being treated.  For prime example, Cersei, Lyssa, Dany and Sansa have all talked about being raped by their husbands.  However marriage rape is not illegal in Westeros and it would be thought of as being her duty and not rape by the populace.  But it doesn't have to be illegal for a woman to know she's being raped.

So Lyanna does not need to be a 21st century woman to know when she's being sold against her will.  She's not a perpetrator, her father and older brother are.  Robert is, for thinking of her as a possession and not a living person.

She also doesn't tell/make her family show up in KL calling Rhaegar a liar and getting themselves killed.  Especially if she's left word(which we can assume) that she wasn't really kidnapped.

Lyanna is a victim of a society that likes to sell their children for alliances.

It's funny that you keep talking about  the women when men like Brandon, Tyrion , Ned, King Robert  etc were all forced into marriages for the good of their houses.  If you're not willing to do whats good for your house than give up all the privileges associated with the name or stfu.  You're still putting a 21st century mindset onto this thing, but that's not how people operated and if Rhaegar didn't show up, she would've went through with the marriage. 

So no, Lyanna is no victim, she's just a spoiled brat who caused the near destruction of her house and the death of untold people because a handsome boy was into her.

[DigitalCount]

In response to the idea that Dany doesn't particularly need or want Cersei's help, I agree. Dany wants to pause the video game so she can call 911 and get her kids to the hospital, but Cersei couldn't care less. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by DigitalCount