S07.E05: Eastwatch

[mac123x]

I wonder if the annulment angle will be Show-only, or if it'll play that way in the books also.  (Assume, for the sake of argument, that we actually get any more non-prequel books).  I've always just assumed that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married in addition to him being married to Elia - bigamy wasn't really allowed, but it wasn't unheard of for Targaryens to have more than one wife. 

 

But if Book!Rhaegar gets an annulment, wouldn't that make his two children with Elia into bastards?  Kind of like how Mary Tudor became a bastard after Henry VIII annulled his marriage to Katherine of Aragon.  A whole new wrinkle to the fAegon plotline, because it wasn't convoluted enough as-is.

[Willowy]

Hmmm, I wonder if Cersei isn't thinking about ways her and weirdo Qyburn could weaponize the Dead Army.

[Francie]

3 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I can't imagine a show that prides itself on feminism ending with the most powerful female yielding her claim to a man. That would not go over well at all.

The show runners crowed about all the women at Dany's war council.

And guess how many of those women were at Dany's council this episode? 

None, aside from Dany. It was five (or was it 6?) men. Tyrion, Jon, Jorah, Varys, Davos and maybe Gendry. 

In a way, I don't mind. Those women on that council were all characters fueled by hate, revenge, or self-interest. None was thinking of "the realm." 

So, am I betraying feminism by being glad they are gone. Certainly, it annoyed me that none of the level-headed counsellors were male. It annoyed me that there were no men at this episode's council.

But I'm more annoyed at token female participants. The show runners shouldn't have crowed how pro-women they were as to the first episode. And they should be checking themselves about how there were none at this one. 

Feminism doesn't mean to settle for any women at the table. It's about women of equal quality being allowed a place at it. 

[Binns]

2 hours ago, tomsmom said:

Um that throwaway line about Rhaegar's annulment???? HUGE!

Right? I nearly threw something at the tv. WAKE UP SAMWELL!!!

[Paradigm14]

1 minute ago, anamika said:

No he was the King making decisions. If she wanted to give her input, she should have discussed with him before hand about what he wanted to do. And not keep pushing the point again and again till he shut her up. Her advice was anything but fair - she wanted little children punished for what their parents did. And she did compare him to Joffrey for not listening to her shitty advice when she countered him in front of everyone.

Davos is his hand and Jon is King. If Sansa wants Jon to listen she should approach him and discuss with him before hand. Not give him orders in front of everyone when he is making decisions.

In this very episode she complains about Jon being gone, when he is away trying to save their asses. As Arya points out, that's why he put her in charge - so instead of being a whiny ass, be in charge.

And Arya is anything but a slow mind. She can see that Sansa wants to rule the North by herself and hence she confronts her about it.

I think as far as the Little Lord and Lady go, Sansa is at least correct that eyes should have been sent to those houses to make sure things go along as planned. Her advice was a little hard, but she was on the right track, just bad delivery. I think she wants Jon back because she worries about him and hates being in charge, which may even be a surprise to her. I think we'll see that when Jon gets back or sooner.

[HolmesUltimateQu]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I think that Gendry is back because they are going to re-establish the House Baratheon. However, it could just be meta and fan servicing.

I hope this is correct! Either way, I was pretty excited to see Gendry and I was amused by the 'still rowing a boat' comment. 

AND I also hope that Arya knows she's being played by Littlefinger or she's not really the badass they want us to believe. 

I was hoping that Jon would ride a dragon this episode (I have no knowledge of any dragon-riding, I'm just hoping based on speculation from you fine folks). 

I'm really not excited about this trip to catch a wight. I feel like it's going to end badly, it's for naught, and that it's wasting precious story time that could be served better by Jon riding a dragon. 

Also, when Gilly was reading that book and she read the part about "Regger" annulling the marriage, I sat STRAIGHT UP on the couch and waited for Sam to have the same reaction. He never did. I hope he brought that book with him though. 

[WatchrTina]

I really enjoyed tonight's episode but I just have to whistle pass anything having to do with travel and the passage of time.  That army of the dead that Bran saw with his Raven-vision at the very beginning of the episode was just a few seconds' flight north of the wall.  What have they been doing during the time that it took for Tyrion to go on (and return from) his mission to King's Landing followed by the voyage from Dragonstone to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea?  All that had to take several days at a minimum.  Did the army of the dead just stop walking?

And given the size of that army, how exactly are the "Magnificent Seven" of Westeros supposed to cull one walker from the herd and deliver it to Kings Landing?  That plan seems . . . flawed.

Edited August 14, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Lemuria]

I just re-watched the Jon and Drogon scene and I'd forgotten that Dany asks Jon what Davos meant about his taking a knife in the heart for his people.  He tries to wave it off but she then essentially asks if it didn't happen--and he never answers her.  That should get the wheels turning.  I don't think she's going to let that go.

[crowceilidh]

I don't think Cersei is pregnant.  That whole thing smacked of set-up, from Qyburn's words to her promise to Jamie.  Also, the prophecy.  Also,  book Cersei is getting fat from all the drinking, why not show Cersei -- she's hardly teetotal.

[DangerousTangerine]

1 hour ago, LanceM said:

Jon is not really good at picking up cues from women is he? When Dany told him she didn't have his permission to leave it wasn't because she was holding him prisoner it was because she didn't want to see him get killed.  Her face said it all in that scene.

Of course he didn't pick up on it. Jon is not the kind of person who ever thinks he should matter to anyone. So he doesn't consider that people would ever worry about him or be into him. He's grown up with the message that he doesn't matter, so he's internalized it. So no, he wouldn't notice Dany's concern.

[Macbeth]

Poor Jorah. Sir Friendzone.

He looked sad when he saw how upset Dany was when she found out Jon was going to fight the dead. 

I don't think Bran will be warging into any Dragons to fight the Night King.  His mark is on Bran, and he can push Bran out of any animal if he senses him.

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, crowceilidh said:

I don't think Cersei is pregnant.  That whole thing smacked of set-up, from Qyburn's words to her promise to Jamie.  Also, the prophecy.  Also,  book Cersei is getting fat from all the drinking, why not show Cersei -- she's hardly teetotal.

To be fair the prophecy is off anyway since Cersei clearly had four children and one of them was by Robert. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Oscirus

[MarySNJ]

22 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Aerys named Viserys heir upon Rhaegar's death.  Viserys was crowned on Dragonstone.

If so, 3 of Aerys´Kingsguard including the Lord Commander did not apparently acknowledge that, because they remained in Dorne guarding the Tower of Joy and did not go to Dragonstone to protect Viserys. The evidence strongly suggests that they considered Rhaegar´s remaining son "Jon" to be the king, not Aerys' younger son, Viserys. The only other Kingsguard that survived Robert's Rebellion, Jaime and Baristan, declared for Robert.

[Francie]

43 minutes ago, Paradigm14 said:

There's no competition. If Dany finds out, you'll see her yield.

 

 

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, Macbeth said:

Poor Jorah. Sir Friendzone.

He looked sad when he saw how upset Dany was when she found out Jon was going to fight the dead. 

I don't think Bran will be warging into any Dragons to fight the Night King.  His mark is on Bran, and he can push Bran out of any animal if he senses him.

Jorah had more of a moment with Tyrion than he did with Dany. The Dany stuff came strangely close to teasing.

[Paradigm14]

Just now, Francie said:

 

 

Get ready. Awful picture.

[Lemuria]

7 minutes ago, crowceilidh said:

I don't think Cersei is pregnant.  That whole thing smacked of set-up, from Qyburn's words to her promise to Jamie.  Also, the prophecy.  Also,  book Cersei is getting fat from all the drinking, why not show Cersei -- she's hardly teetotal.

Wow.  So far, I've read in posts that book Cersei is stupid and now fat.  Martin really hates Cersei, doesn't he?

Edited August 14, 2017 by Lemuria

[Chris24601]

46 minutes ago, Paradigm14 said:

There's no competition. If Dany finds out, you'll see her yield.

Actually, all the rules of drama suggest that when Dany finds out the LAST thing she'll do is yield because of all the delicious irony of her talking smack about the usurpers all these years and then she ends up one herself. I don't think ANY writer could resist that twist... just just too delicious.

[Francie]

By the way, am I the only one who's noticed that HBO's thumbnail picture for the very first episode of the season --  Dragonstone -- shows Dany kneeling? 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Francie

[AGuyToo]

I really don't understand Randall Tarly's motivation. He says he already has a queen (Cersei) for whom is apparently willing to die. But why? Cersei just grabbed the throne; she has no actual claim. And she killed much of House Tyrell (House Tarly's liege lords) with wildfire. Dany, on the other hand, is the only (known) descendant of the last Targaryen king (for whom House Tarly fought during Robert's Rebellion). Her claim is clear.

Edited August 14, 2017 by AGuyToo

[LanceM]

2 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Actually, all the rules of drama suggest that when Dany finds out the LAST thing she'll do is yield because of all the delicious irony of her talking smack about the usurpers all these years and then she ends up one herself. I don't think ANY writer could resist that twist... just just too delicious.

But Dany wouldn't be a usurper.  All she and Jon have at this point is a claim. to the throne.

[Oscirus]

Just now, AGuyToo said:

I really don't understand Randall Tarly's motivation. He says he already has a queen (Cersei) for whom is apparently willing to die. But why? Cersei just grabbed the throne; she has no actual claim. And she killed much of House Tyrell (the Tarly's liege lords) with wildfire. Dany, on the other hand, is the only (known) descendant of the last Targaryen king. Her claim is clear.

I'm more confused about his getting pissed at Dickon for doing what he did. What did Randyl think was going to happen?

[HolmesUltimateQu]

12 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Good setup, I did wince when Jamie and Bronn came out of the lake on the opposite end of the battle, with Jamie in full gear and WW.

Glad Gendry is back, and I hope that look on Jamie's face when Cersei said don't betray her again is his wake up call.

Yup Arya had to be a sleep in some of her lessons, and she should have picked up on Sansa's emotions when Arya accused her, so much for lie vs. truth or she picked up on it, but LF turned it back on her. Arya should have been asking questions on what happened the day her father lost his head.

Looked like Sam just willy nillie  the pilfering of scrolls and books, what if all he got were recipes for flea bottom's bowl of brown; Gilly was funny and endearing.

The crew is  trekking with no horses little to no food?

Just got in here so I'll be reading and answering. 

I feel like this is said every episode about something fucked up that Cersei does that SHOULD be a wake up call to Jamie but in the end, it isn't. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by rachel is awesome

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, rachel is awesome said:

BBM, I feel like this is said every episode about something fucked up that Cersei does that SHOULD be a wake up call to Jamie but in the end, it isn't. 

BBM?

[rmontro]

I'm a little confused.  There seems to be some suggestion here that Jon Snow would be clear cut heir to the throne?  Could someone explain why that is?  Is it just because he is male?  Because Daenerys is more directly descended from the mad king.

Also:  How do you think that it will come out that Tyrion is Targaryan, assuming that he is?  Who is there around who would know?  Bran?

[KaleyFirefly]

I missed the first seven minutes, what happened? How did Jamie and Bronn get out of the water?

[WatchrTina]

On 8/13/2017 at 11:20 PM, AGuyToo said:

I really don't understand Randall Tarly's motivation. He says he already has a queen (Cersei) for whom is apparently willing to die. But why? Cersei just grabbed the throne; she has no actual claim. And she killed much of House Tyrell (the Tarly's liege lords) with wildfire. Dany, on the other hand, is the only (known) descendant of the last Targaryen king. Her claim is clear.

Randall Tarly is self-deluding hypocrite.  He likes to think of himself as an honorable man despite his having extorted his eldest son into giving up his birthright by threatening to kill him if he didn't take the black.  So -- in keeping this his self-delusion -- he resisted Jaime's first overture to him but then, having rationalized his decision to turn his cloak and march against the Tyrells (to whom he was pledged as banner-man), he's now committed to Queen Cersie.  He rationalized his decision to turn on the Tyrells but he's too inflexible to change sides twice -- THAT would be dishonorable (whereas all the shit he got up to before that is A-OKAY in his fundamentalist mind.)

Edited August 19, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Lemuria]

Quote

Her claim is clear.

I'm not sure it would be to Westeros.  Her "claim" is that her ancestor Aegon took control of Westeros by force, killing thousands and usurping thrones of the other kings of Westeros.  When House Targaryen itself gets overthrown and the Throne get re-usurped, it's hard for her to argue "Oh, noes, that doesn't count.  My line should still rule."  

Those who live by the gun, die by the gun.  Goose, meet gander.  And so on and so forth.  

So, I'm not sure she should expect the people of Westeros to applaud her return.  Don't get me wrong:  I'm not saying she shouldn't seek the throne because right now, she's as much a contender as anyone else; just that she shouldn't expect the people of Westeros to feel the same way about it.  They don't necessarily see a triumphant return; they may, as Randall Tarly did, see a foreign invader.  

[Francie]

You know who the winner of this episode is, right? Whoever stumbles on to those two dead guards and finds 30 gold coins. 

Seriously, why didn't Davos take his money back? I guess time was of the essence. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Francie

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, KaleyFirefly said:

I missed the first seven minutes, what happened? How did Jamie and Bronn get out of the water?

They  swam clear across to the other end of the lake, away from Danny, in full gear no less.

caught up, rewatch time.

[Lemuria]

9 minutes ago, rmontro said:

 Because Daenerys is more directly descended from the mad king.

She isn't more directly descended from Aerys, she's just a step closer.  A grandchild is considered a direct descendant, just one level down from a child.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Lemuria

[Moya the Leviathan]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I think that Gendry is back because they are going to re-establish the House Baratheon. However, it could just be meta and fan servicing.

Gendry fans: works for us! That is a sexy warhammer.

Dickon fans:  Well, not an awful second choice.

Podrick fans: Booo!

[WatchrTina]

13 minutes ago, KaleyFirefly said:

I missed the first seven minutes, what happened? How did Jamie and Bronn get out of the water?

Backstroke!

Actually, Bronn dragged Jamie out . . . all the way on the opposite side of the lake . . . without surfacing first . . . he's a right champion swimmer our Bronn is. . . . didn't even make Jamie drop his golden hand or any of his armor along the way.

Edited August 14, 2017 by WatchrTina

[britesongs]

9 minutes ago, KaleyFirefly said:

I missed the first seven minutes, what happened? How did Jamie and Bronn get out of the water?

They literally just climbed out. Gave a few gasps and looked tired, but plot armor is apparently REALLY lightweight.

[AGuyToo]

6 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I'm a little confused.  There seems to be some suggestion here that Jon Snow would be clear cut heir to the throne?  Could someone explain why that is?  Is it just because he is male?  Because Daenerys is more directly descended from the mad king.

Also:  How do you think that it will come out that Tyrion is Targaryan, assuming that he is?  Who is there around who would know?  Bran?

Rhaegar was the eldest child and heir apparent of Aerys. As such, his legitimate descendant (Jon) is the next in line, ahead of Rhaegar's sister Daenerys. This is the same idea that, in Britain today, puts William, son of Charles, ahead of Queen Elizabeth's other children.

The one complication is that there is an (ambiguous) line in the books that suggests that Aerys disinherited Rhaegar (and his descendants). Here is the Quora discussion on the topics: https://www.quora.com/Did-Aerys-The-Mad-King-make-Viserys-his-heir-before-or-after-Rhaegars-death.

[dirtypop90]

57 minutes ago, KaleyFirefly said:

 

I don't understand. Pics with them smiling (from years ago at that) doesn't say anything about their on screen chemistry now.  I feel nothing when they are on screen together.

Edited August 14, 2017 by dirtypop90

[Oscirus]

Another thing, so Jamie was fighting off dothraki like it was  nothing last week yet this week, he's having conversations with Bronn about still needing more training? Holy contradicting scenes batman.

[screamin]

2 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Why!? Sam's family treated him like shit. 

He liked his brother, IIRC.

[Raachel2008]

Drogon allowing Jon to pet him: "Hello, Daddy".

[WatchrTina]

4 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Jamie was fighting off dothraki like it was  nothing last week yet this week, he's having conversations with Bronn about still needing more training? Holy contradicting scenes batman.

I think we're supposed to understand that Bronn nagged Jaime into a training session just to get him into the dragon-skull chamber to meet with Tyrion.  I didn't get the sense that the training session was Jaime's idea or even that he was all that eager to do it.  I assumed Bronn made a pest of himself until Jaime agreed.

Edited August 14, 2017 by WatchrTina

[magdalene]

Since Jaime hasn't turned from Cersei yet - what would finally make him and be believable and not contrived?  And now she seems to be pregnant - good grief!

Dany can claim all day long that men choose her but the terror in those Lannister soldiers faces was not choice but just desperation and trying to avoid being Drogon's extra crispy camp fire marshmallow snacks.

Davos and Bronn are my favorites, they are not at all alike but they both have a quality in short supply on this show - common sense.

Quote

I'm a little confused.  There seems to be some suggestion here that Jon Snow would be clear cut heir to the throne?  Could someone explain why that is?  Is it just because he is male?  Because Daenerys is more directly descended from the mad king.

Because Jon is Rhaegar's as we found out this episode legitimate son, and Rhaegar was the heir to throne of the Mad King? Ergo, I guess Jon is the heir to the throne.

Quote

Dragon fire seems to be one of the more humane ways to kill your enemies. Gruesome, sure, but war isn't exactly gentle.

Dickon had armor on so he was basically boiled alive in it, the metal would have stuck to his skin, which would be incredible painful. And Dany's  little smile when she gave the word to Drogon, shudders.

Edited August 14, 2017 by magdalene

[MadMouse]

35 minutes ago, DangerousTangerine said:

Of course he didn't pick up on it. Jon is not the kind of person who ever thinks he should matter to anyone. So he doesn't consider that people would ever worry about him or be into him. He's grown up with the message that he doesn't matter, so he's internalized it. So no, he wouldn't notice Dany's concern.

Trust me its not because of the way he grew up, he's a guy. She's going to have either say lets fuck or take off her clothes before he'll pick up any signals. Another thing about that scene did any catch Dany gulping when she realized what Jon was going to do, it was right before she mentions he doesn't have her permission. 

[screamin]

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Yes, I dearly hope this is Arya's reaction. Otherwise ugh. It's just plain bad contrived writing. Once again, $10 billion special effects...fifty cent script.

I cannot believe the writers would inflict another Lannister spawn on us. Stop it, writers. Just stop it.

So it's official and "Raggar" got an annulment and married Lyanna and Jon is a trueborn Targaryen. Drogon knew it right away. Smart guy, that Drogon.

Eh, I don't think Drogon would be such a social snob as to look down on Jon if Rhaegar hadn't married Lyanna.

[jeansheridan]

2 hours ago, CofCinci said:

The things I do for love."

Ha! So basically love makes you suck in Martin's world? Only friendships and bromances allowed? 

I guess Sam and Gilly are okay..for now.

[rmontro]

7 minutes ago, AGuyToo said:

Rhaegar was the eldest child and heir apparent of Aerys.

If that is so, one might wonder why then did the dragons return through Daenerys?  If Jon is the legitimate heir, why wouldn't they return through him?

Speaking of which, doesn't it seem that Daenerys has changed her approach somewhat?  She has always been ruthless, but she's also been about freeing people.  She used to usually give them a choice:  You are free to go, or you can join me.  Now, it's bend the knee or die.  I'd prefer to see some of the old Dany at work if she's going to gain support in Westeros.

[Francie]

44 minutes ago, crowceilidh said:

I don't think Cersei is pregnant.  That whole thing smacked of set-up, from Qyburn's words to her promise to Jamie.  Also, the prophecy.  Also,  book Cersei is getting fat from all the drinking, why not show Cersei -- she's hardly teetotal.

Book Cersei is getting fat around the middle. Martin is writing her as pregnant and not being aware of it. 

[jeansheridan]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Is there even any reason to bring back Gendry at this point beyond letting Davos get all meta and fan servicey in joking that he's been rowing all this time?  

Yes, we need a Smith. In my opinion it will take 7 people to take down the Night King and those men are not the right 7.

[FemmyV]

Not as awe-striking as last week's show, but better than pretty much anything from Season 5 or 6. And damn, it moved fast! So many quick reunions, and on to business.

Shall we speculate how Bronn and Jamie got downstream without being detected? And alive? I didn't see any scuba, snorkeling or other James Bond-type devices, so I guess I'll just have to buy that they walked or crawled along the riverbed to safety. Right ... well, Jamie can be much like a cat, there goes another one of his lives. Bronn, I'm not so sure about; Cersei seems to think something needs done about him, and spoilers I've seen

Spoiler

don't mention him being by Jamie's side when he finally gets fed up and leaves. I'm hopeful he'll survive, but not counting on it, and it seems we're past due for the death of any of the fan favorites, lately.

 

I would have liked to see a little more brotherly action with Jamie and Tyrion, but considering Tywin's death, I guess one can only hope for so much. Speaking of Tyrion .. you'd think he was Arya enjoying her last evening in Braavos, with no reason to worry about being spotted by the wrong people. Just taking a leisurely walk on the coast, no reason to hide behind a rock or anything until the Gold Cloaks are gone.

Gendry! So glad to have him back. But I guess we're going to have to wait for his shirtless scene. Damn! I love how he blew off Davos' advice at the first chance, heehee. It was the smart thing to do, and their exchange about skinnier and shorter reminded me of Ned and Robert ("you got fat"). But no Arya talk? Nah, I'm not buying that. I mean, if you're going to blow off Davos advice about your identity, may as well give SOME hint of your intentions for his sister.

 

Dany did the right thing in torching the Tarly fools. Especially Randal, who had to be one of the biggest hypocrites with an army. His choice to stick with Cersei wasn't based on what's best for Westeros, it was based on his prejudices. Dickon was a fool to follow him. Her choice of their death wasn't all that much different from Ned swinging the axe: Drogon did the work, but she was the only person who could give him that command. Oh, and by the way: Sam is now heir to the full frigging Reach, should the NW kick his ass out. Or dissolve.

 

Arya ... are you really going to fall for LF's shit? Guess so. This episode marks TWO - TWO IN A ROW - where Sansa is finally behaving as smartly as the producers tell us she is. Hoo fucking ray.

 

Bran / Ravens / Eastwatch ... oooh. It's getting scary ...

Edited August 14, 2017 by FemmyV

[gatopretoNYC]

2 hours ago, tomsmom said:

Um that throwaway line about Rhaegar's annulment???? HUGE!

 

2 hours ago, stagmania said:

They were actually pretty smooth with that annulment reveal. I bet a lot of casual viewers missed it, and Sam wasn't listening at all. He'll probably remember and put it together after meeting Bran. Or Gilly will. I want it to be Gilly!

Yeah, I'm sure that will fly past my mom, and my husband, who both love the show, but don't go nuts reading tons of stuff online like I do. I've filled them in on the likely Rhaegar/Lyanna fell in love, vs the kidnapping thing. I just happened to go on a GOT youtube binge last night, and watched this Nerd Soup (who does excellent Westworld recaps) piece on the possible Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage. He was off about the location, though. :)

 

When I heard Gilly read that, I went "Ooooh!", whooped, and clapped. :D

[Insomnia]

2 hours ago, Francie said:

Varys in season 5:  "The seven kingdoms needs someone stronger than Tommen but gentler than Stannis..."

Stannis to Mance: Bend your knee. Or die. (By fire)

Daenerys to soldiers:  Bend the knee. Or die. (By fire)

So much for being gentler than Stannis. 

Except burning to death at the stake is probably a lot worse than being burned to death by dragon fire. When you're burned to death at the stake, all the hot fumes and smoke end up killing you before the fire does and you are incredible pain.  That's why Shireen and Mance were both screaming as it happened, it takes a long time. Dragon breath is hot enough to melt stone - that's what happened to Harenhal.  They were alive for seconds before they were ash. Beheading by sword isn't exactly better either - look at Theon hacking over and over again when he tried it. And hanging? Sometimes the neck doesn't quite break and you can dangle there for hours before you actual die.

 

Dragon fire seems to be one of the more humane ways to kill your enemies. Gruesome, sure, but war isn't exactly gentle.