S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[MichaelaRae]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

If you're listening to the lady who caused her family's downfall, then you're listening to the wrong person.

I love me some Lady Olenna, but yeah. She was crazy manipulative and i loved her, but ultimately she and her entirely family were killed by the Lannisters...and a good portion of her army...and her keep and all of its holdings so...yeah.

[Oscirus]

Just now, SeanC said:

Dany "caused" the terrorist group by freeing slaves.  Are you saying she shouldn't have ended slavery?

Freeing the slaves was fine, but she probably shouldn't have crucified the masters, and it was definitely bad form to feed that master to her dragon amongst other things.

[spottedreptile]

2 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

True, but I don't see much if any difference between torching civilian conscripts with dragonfire and torchi ng servants in the Red Keep

I do. An opposing army is expecting to fight, and will try to win in any way it can. They could be conscripts or volunteers, either way they are soldiers and go into battle knowing they can die horribly. Civil servants are another matter entirely. The Blitz in London came about because German bombers mistakenly bombed civilians early in the war instead of factories and weaponry as they had been doing, and then it escalated from there on both sides. I feel no sympathy for the Lannister army as a whole; it's horrible seeing anybody die in a brutal way; but they were soldiers who would have done just the same if it meant they won.

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Francie said:

Keep in mind who invited Dany.  A woman who murdered and overthrew Dorne, a woman who is open treason against the crown, and a man who is a fugitive from the law.  And all are acting in personal payback to Cersei.  None of them is, err -- was, interested in the common people.  So rebels and treasoners invited Dany in.  Even Yara was not the elected ruler of the Iron Islands.  They are all usurpers. 

If popular support is what you're concerned about, Ellaria was the leader of a populist overthrow of the existing dynasty; she arguably had the most widespread grassroots support of any leader on the show, and the people backed her coup specifically because Doran refused to go to war against the Lannisters.  Olenna was (somewhat questionably) the unquestioned head of House Tyrell.  Yara wasn't the elected ruler, but she had her own followers, and it was her uncle who drove her into exile.

Just now, Oscirus said:

Freeing the slaves was fine, but she probably shouldn't have crucified the masters, and it was definitely bad form to feed that master to her dragon amongst other things.

The Sons of the Harpy already existed when the latter was done.

As far as crucifying the masters goes, that was indeed ineffective, but don't pretend the insurgency wouldn't have happened if she hadn't done that.  The point of the story is that the master class in Slaver's Bay will not accept the abolition of slavery unless beaten into submission, which is what Dany does.

[Francie]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I just gave you one.  It's quite literally in the post you quote.

I guess it's something. But given that he doesn't say why Aegon was the previously greatest and whether that's because he's rating him on his conquering skills I don't know. But I set a low bar, and that may just cut muster. 

[Paradigm14]

2 hours ago, Macbeth said:

Roose Bolton has risen from the grave.

Fantastic.

Actually I'm beginning to think Euron is now Roose 2.0, with some Ramsey mixed in, plus Victarion.

[Francie]

2 minutes ago, SeanC said:

If popular support is what you're concerned about, Ellaria was the leader of a populist overthrow of the existing dynasty; she arguably had the most widespread grassroots support of any leader on the show, and the people backed her coup specifically because Doran refused to go to war against the Lannisters.  Olenna was (somewhat questionably) the unquestioned head of House Tyrell.  Yara wasn't the elected ruler, but she had her own followers, and it was her uncle who drove her into exile.

 

That is some interesting sugar-coating of the roles Ellaria, Olenna and Yara were playing. 

This episode will likely be Dany's high point in conquering Westeros.  Unless and until she figures out that she needs the help Westeros survive by dedicating what forces she has left to defeating the WW threat, she's going to take a dark turn, I expect. 

[Constantinople]

Another issue is that too often ordinary people are thought of as an undifferentiated mass

I doubt very much if most residents of Kings Landing cared that much if some servants were roasted in the Red Keep.  There's likely a lot of resentment towards people who are seen as having such good jobs

[Lemuria]

Quote

civilian conscripts

"Conscripts" implies that there's a draft, which I don't think there is in Westeros.  There's a middle ground between conscript and sell sword.  The US military (as an example), since the draft was ended years ago, falls in the middle ground. 

 

I just realized that Braavos is Switzerland.  They'll deal with both sides in a conflict.  And they maintain an army that other cities or kingdoms can hire.  (Yes, I know:  Switzerland doesn't do that part anymore but it once did. ) 

[WatchrTina]

Somebody up-thread made a really good point that we don't know Bronn's family name.  Back in Season 1 when Tyrion introduced him as "Bronn, son of  . . . ? "  "Bronn said "You wouldn't have heard of him."  And in this episode (or maybe the last) Jaime referred to Bronn as "Ser Bronn of the Blackwater from who-knows-where."

So . . . what if Bronn is a Blackfyre?  What if Bronn is descended from the Targaryan bastard line?  Remember, "The dragon has three heads."  It's clear that Dany & Jon are two of those heads but I've always wondered who the third head was going to be -- who was going to ride that third dragon into battle against the Night King.  Now I'm starting to think it might be Bronn.

So that's my new wild-ass speculation:  Dany takes two husbands -- Jon & Bronn (because they can both pilot dragons) and they all fly into battle against the Night King together.  Dickon ends up with Sansa (one of those marriages after a war to heal the breach and they live happily ever after).  And Pod falls in love with Arya (he admires warrior women now) and Arya marries him to avoid being promised in marriage to anyone else because no way is she going to suffer Sansa's fate.  And then she finds out what all those whores in Kings Landing found out and THEY live happily ever after.

[Colorful Mess]

"She has a good heart" -- is this all that separates her from Stannis, Cersei, et al.?

"My people who are trying to rule don't have an easy time of it. Just having good intentions doesn't make you a wise king." - GRRM, Rolling Stone Interview

[SeanC]

Just now, Francie said:

That is some interesting sugar-coating of the roles Ellaria, Olenna and Yara were playing. 

No, that's a quite accurate recap of all three.

In the show's version of Dorne, everybody hates Doran for not going to war against the Lannisters.  That's why Ellaria was able to murder him in front of his own guards and nobody did a thing, and why she was able to rule Dorne afterward without a peep.

Olenna was the head of House Tyrell.  Nobody questioned it, not even the Lannisters when trying to woo away her bannermen.

Yara fled into exile because she knew her uncle would try to murder her, which he did.

[SimoneS]

23 minutes ago, spottedreptile said:

Praise admire respect yes. Like, no. The North remembered for as long as it could William's brutal treatment of them during the Harrying. That bleeds into the culture and never really goes away. William was a great conqueror and an efficient ruler, but he wasn't remembered fondly by the English. They set their teeth and endured him, as one did in those days. Kings were admired for being tough, as that meant they could fight their enemies, but not for unnecessary torture and sadism for those who didn't "bend the knee" or pay their taxes. 

To be fair, I never said that William was liked, I said that he was praised which he is by most historians and about his million European and American descendants including all the modern European royalty.  And yes, the North rebelled against his rule which is why he treated them more brutally than others. Also, it depends on who you refer to as "English." England was a made up of Danes, Anglo-Saxons, Norwegians and a whole bunch of other groups. William married many Norman lords to the Anglo-Saxon and Danish/Norwegian nobility that ruled the south so they pretty much liked him.  

Edited August 7, 2017 by SimoneS

[arjumand]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

It was a thing of beauty to behold.

Watching Dany on Drogon go to work on those Lannister bastards was so fulfilling. The Dothraki screamers were amazing to watch.  Brutal and efficient. Interesting to watch them go against a Westerosi army.  We never got to see Robb's victories against the Lannisters in big battles like this.

Hardhome continues to be no.1 for me, but field of fire 2.0 comes a close second. It was awesome in every way except for the real endless plot armor that kept Bronn and Jaime alive.  Why the hell were the Dothraki not  trying to take down Bronn standing on his huge harpoon wagon?!

As for Cersei,  Daenerys  ambushes the convoy near Blackwater Rush - close to King's Landing. Hopefully Cersei saw all that smoke and smells the burnt flesh. I hope they discuss the loss of all that food. I hope she finally realizes what she's up against. If we don't see her shaken next episode, that's going to be disappointing.

Jaime looking at his men burning while a sad version of rains of castamere plays. Boo Hoo! Cry Jaime, cry!  You have been shacking up with and supporting a sister who exploded the sept killing several hundreds.  I don't see how anyone could feel sorry for them. They have been fucking people over for years. About time they get a taste of their own medicine. I actually wanted Drogon to burn Jamie. At least Cersei is self aware and knows that she's a monster. I dislike Jaime and his faux honor.

Yes, this. I can't believe how satisfying it was to me to watch Jaime get his. Because this was his fault, all of it. And no, I m not going to entertain for one second the 'poor Lannister soldiers, weep for them' bullshit. If the show wanted to do that, it shouldn't have shown (heh) me the previous episode - heaps of dead Highgarden people, concluding with an old woman being coerced to drink poison - and this episode, where I loathed everyone. Bronn laughing merrily over Dickon killing people he knew, Tarly wanting to flog his own guys, Jaime telling Bronn to go and brutalise the farmers until they gave up all of their food. I wanted everyone to die so badly. 

And I'm putting everything on Jaime. Surely it's not a coincidence that he spent the previous episode saying Dothraki so many times I kept expecting someone to autotune it and set it to EDM. And fucking Tarly mentioned the dragons, ffs. Jaime knew, and let his brains be sucked out through his dick. Now he can live with all that on his conscience, if he can dig it out from wherever it's retreated to. I hope that that was one of the thoughts going through his head, along with oh shit oh shit I'm gonna dieeee.

 

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Those men who just sacked Highgarden and stripped all the food from the Reach, and have been laying waste to the Riverlands and everywhere else for several years.

Yes. It's a war. Jaime could have told Cersei he was going to take Highgarden and then sued for peace through Olenna. Tarly could have gone to Olenna and pledged to her. Those soldiers' deaths are on them, not the woman who they backed into a fricking corner.

 

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I surprised myself by rooting hard for Bronn's death.  I know he's a fan favorite, and I find the character amusing and enjoy the actor.  But his lack of loyalty to anything other than money never sat well with me.  When he made light of an old woman's death (although I've never forgiven Olenna for setting up Sansa), I really turned sour on the character.  Then when Dany and the Lannisters collided, all I could think is that Bronn will betray Tyrion.  Topped off by the attempted assassination of Drogon/Dany, and I was cheering for his death.

And by the way, there's no way in hell Bronn would have risked himself for Jaime.  Not without a pre-arranged agreement, and gold in hand.

And second by the way, other than the glorious outing of Olenna's part in Joffrey's death, why even kill Olenna?  Balon Greyjoy wasn't killed after his rebellion.  Olenna was an old lady with a conquered army.  They would have stripped her of all her money and food anyway.  I didn't care for Jaime's part in administering the poison, either. 

So presumably, Jaime and Bronn will be POWs.  I really, really dread any interaction between Bronn and Tyrion. 

I agree with all of this, but especially the part in bold. Olenna even hinted that what they were doing was a mistake when she asked why Tywin never attacked the Reach, even though the gold mines were depleted. But she could tell that Jaime was too full of his own so-called success, so she dropped it.

 

56 minutes ago, doram said:

Well, Aegon was a dude. 

Cersei might be a woman but she's also Evil and Evil women are allowed to be powerful in stereotypically masculine ways. 

Daenerys is a Good Woman and it's not acceptable that she's wielding this kind of power that is reserved for men, or a sign of being Evil.

Ergo - we wonder/worry that Daenerys is on a Path to Evil.

Misogyny 101. 

Yes, this is starting to occur to me, sadly. The Dothraki and the dragons are the only weapons she has left, so of course she's going to use them. I'm already wincing in anticipation for all the pearl-clutching on online reviews, who were, last week, really enjoying Euron dragging three women on leashes across King's Landing as well as Cersei torturing Ellaria and Tyene (there was a lot of "sure Euron is evil, but he's got style! And I always hated the Sand Snakes!").

Edited August 7, 2017 by arjumand

[dr pepper]

Sansa should officially recognize Arya as Lady Tully, liege of the Riverlands. Arya could then go, along with some of those lesser nobles whom Sansa wanted to reward with castles, to reestablish order in the Tully and Frey territories. There will be plenty of castles to hand out.

[WatchrTina]

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Boo for Dany flying directly at the damn thing instead of circling around and flambeing it from behind. 

Okay, I'm quoting myself because I was wrong.  Upon second viewing I noticed that the super bow (I forget what it's really called) is actually mounted on a swivel so Bronn could swing it around and aim it at Drogon no matter what Dany's approach vector was.

Edited August 7, 2017 by WatchrTina

[ParadoxLost]

14 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

If you're listening to the lady who caused her family's downfall, then you're listening to the wrong person.

I think they are using Olena and Tyrion to push a justification of a Dany/Jon alliance.

Olena basically said don't listen to any of them, do what you want.

Tyrion basically said follow my strategy even though its not working.

Both are wrong.

Jon basically voiced the exact same concerns about how to get Westeros to follow Dany as Tyrion had but did not impose on her a strategy for how that should be adapted into the way she wanted to fight the battle.  And that worked.

[GrailKing]

38 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

and they know that she set off the wildfire?

Hot Pie knows she burned the Sept.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

I think it can also be flipped back at Dany.  We have a term in our legal system for what she's trying to do:  It's called extortion.  She's accusing him of letting his pride get in the way of helping the North--yet she indicates that she is willing to let the North (and possibly a lot more of Westeros) fall to white walkers if he doesn't give her what she wants.  Pot, meet kettle.

Not at all. Jon is asking Dany to commit her forces - people who followed her to Westeros to fight for the throne - to fight an yet unseen threat. Dany is willing to do that - but in return she wants his assurance that after it is over, the North is part of the 7K and not fighting Dany for independence. There should be give and take on both sides.

[Constantinople]

Someone needs to tell Bran that how you deliver the message can be just as important as what the message is

[Oscirus]

10 minutes ago, SeanC said:

As far as crucifying the masters goes, that was indeed ineffective, but don't pretend the insurgency wouldn't have happened if she hadn't done that.  The point of the story is that the master class in Slaver's Bay will not accept the abolition of slavery unless beaten into submission, which is what Dany does.

You seem to forget one thing that until Tyrion started using priestesses, Dany wasn't a particularly popular queen.  The freed slaves were literally supporting their former masters. So no ruling by fear didn't work. However, I will concede that yes, fear ultimately drove the masters away but that's not ruling, that's just conquering.  

[bmoore4026]

...Jamie...

[magdalene]

While I wish Show Jaime had abandoned Cersei long ago I do like him and admire his courage in charging at Drogon.  He has guts.   I bet having to see all those Lannister soldiers roasting in their armors reminded him of the Mad King all those years ago.

[ParadoxLost]

1 minute ago, magdalene said:

While I wish Show Jaime had abandoned Cersei long ago I do like him and admire his courage in charging at Drogon.  He has guts.   I bet having to see all those Lannister soldiers roasting in their armors reminded him of the Mad King all those years ago.

Not only that but just for staying when Bronn was telling him thathe was the Commander and that he didn't need to be standing around just to get roasted like the infantry.

[Francie]

6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Someone needs to tell Bran that how you deliver the message can be just as important as what the message is

Now that you've posted it here, Bran will have seen you typing it. 

He seems more concerned with other matters at the moment, though. 

[Constantinople]

It seems Qyburn's contraption isn't much use unless you luck out and get a head shot

So you either need a lot more of them being fired at the same time, or you need a much more powerful one that would likely have to be operated by multiple men

[Oscirus]

7 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think they are using Olena and Tyrion to push a justification of a Dany/Jon alliance.

Olena basically said don't listen to any of them, do what you want.

Tyrion basically said follow my strategy even though its not working.

Both are wrong.

Jon basically voiced the exact same concerns about how to get Westeros to follow Dany as Tyrion had but did not impose on her a strategy for how that should be adapted into the way she wanted to fight the battle.  And that worked.

I disagree. Ultimately Dany ignored both Tyrion and Jon and did what she wanted. She took Oleana's advice.   I tend to think Oleana was used to cause a rift between Dany and  Tyrion similar to the one between Aerys and Tywin. Because once she starts embracing her baser instincts, I can easily see Tyrion abandoning her somewhere down the line.   Jon and Dany would be an alliance regardless.

[Anisky]

21 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

"She has a good heart" -- is this all that separates her from Stannis, Cersei, et al.?

"My people who are trying to rule don't have an easy time of it. Just having good intentions doesn't make you a wise king." - GRRM, Rolling Stone Interview

Good intentions (/a good heart) aren't the only thing, to be sure, but are you trying to say that they aren't an important thing? What if Cersei did have a good heart and good intentions-- you don't think that would make a huge freaking difference?

Anyway, Jon wasn't trying to give a exhaustive analysis of Dany's strengths and weaknesses as a prospective ruler. He was giving his impression after talking to her three times. Sheesh.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Anisky

[MadMouse]

The Tyrells, Bastard Martell's and Greyjoys didn't invite Dany to Westeros, she was coming for what her ancestors forged. Those houses allied with her because she was the best bet because of her dragons and it was because she was advised not to use dragons she lost those same allies. That was the point Olenna was making to Dany about the lords being sheep, one massive display of power and they would have bent the knee and abandoned Cersei. 

[ParadoxLost]

5 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I disagree. Ultimately Dany ignored both Tyrion and Jon and did what she wanted. She took Oleana's advice.   I tend to think Oleana was used to cause a rift between Dany and  Tyrion similar to the one between Aerys and Tywin. Because once she starts embracing her baser instincts, I can easily see Tyrion abandoning her somewhere down the line.   Jon and Dany would be an alliance regardless.

If she had taken Oleana's advice, she would have gone after the Red Keep and ignored everyone.  Maybe that will cause a rift with Tyrion because he's not getting his way 100%.  But Dany is being smarter than either Oleana or Tyrion have advised by both listening to counsel and following her instincts.

Edited August 7, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, MadMouse said:

The Tyrells, Bastard Martell's and Greyjoys didn't invite Dany to Westeros, she was coming for what her ancestors forged. Those houses allied with her because she was the best bet because of her dragons and it was because she was advised not to use dragons she lost those same allies. That was the point Olenna was making to Dany about the lords being sheep, one massive display of power and they would have bent the knee and abandoned Cersei. 

I still think xenophobia would've taken over and that even if she managed to take the throne by force, that a terrorist group similar to the sons of the harpies would've arosen and she'd be ruling a very fractured kingdom.

[Lemuria]

Quote

Not at all. Jon is asking Dany to commit her forces - people who followed her to Westeros to fight for the throne - to fight an yet unseen threat. Dany is willing to do that - but in return she wants his assurance that after it is over, the North is part of the 7K and not fighting Dany for independence. There should be give and take on both sides.

How about asking for his assurance that, if she brings dragons and troops to fight the WW, he agrees to an alliance between her and the North, and he agrees to help her regain the Iron Throne?  A Treaty between two monarchs.  That would be give and take, too:  you help me to save Westeros from the undead and I'll sign a treaty that assures you I'll help in your fight against the Lannisters.

Dany, to me, is insisting on submission from him before helping to save the land that she wants to rule.  In other words, she seems to be counting on his being more concerned about the people of Westeros than she is.  It's just my opinion, but I don't think this particular aspect of the writing is making her look good.  

[Raachel2008]

Jon/Kit's new accent is driving me crazy. It sounds awful with a capital A to my non-native speaker's ears, and it is kind of distracting. I couldn't really get into the cave scene because of that.

Speaking of that, I want really hard to root for Dany/Jon, but the acting is making it really hard for me. Loved the set design in the cave, the pictures on the wall, the lightening.  It was a beautiful work. I agree to a point that Jon is now where Mance was three seasons ago, forgot your pride and save your people.That hit home to him and was the only reason he didn't say "Help me and I will bend the knee", because Dany also needs the North - not as much as the North needs her, but anyway.

One of the things I HATE in any TV show is making irrelevant characters very very stupid  for no reason. Point taken, the two soldiers and Arya. "Arya Stark has been dead for years". So was Rickon. So was Bran. Yet Umber found Rickon and Bran returned.  That scene would have been much better if the two soldiers had told Arya to wait, that they couldn't let her enter without checking her identity, or even something like "forgive us if we don't trust your word, young lady, but since the Starks returned to Winterfell, we've rbeen metting Aryas Starks, every other week, and last month someone claimed to be Ned Stark himself. So, sorry, we can't let you in. Wait until we found someone blah blah blah." But no, they had to write two idiots guarding the main gate of the most important castle in the North; bad guards, bad soldiers and bad people - what kind of grown up man/young man tries to hit a young girl half their size? And for what? To prop Arya ninja skill? Weren't the following Arya scenes enough?

Loved Arya and Sansa meetting, it seemed all very real: touching and akward. Maisie Williams was terrific again; Arya's whole face lift when Sansa told her that Jon would be happy seeing her and that  Bran was there. Some of her facial expressions were exactly like Michelle Fairley's in some scenes, I wonder if it was on purporse?

I loved Brienne and Arya sparring, but how could tiny Arya recover from a kick on the chest from 7 feet tall Brienne so fast? She wasn't even wearing an armor, just a leather vest.

Shouldn't Podrick be a better swordsman by now? Didn't we see Podrick last season fighting along Brienne against the soldiers chasing Sansa and Theon?

I don't think Sansa was jealous of Arya, I think she was shocked. Arya, her little sister, is kicking Brienne of Tarth's ass on a sparring session. And Arya was fighting for real, so I guess Sansa was suprised with Arya's skills and ferocity there.

#JUSTICEFORMEERA is right. That was the coldest goodbye/reakup EVER. If Bran see everything now that he is the Three Eyed-Raven, shouldn't he see what is like to have manners? That was a horrible dismissal and I'm pissed no one said "thank you" to Meera. I'm sure they could have cut some soldier dying in the battler and have a 15 seconds scene with Sansa thanking Meera. 

I'm inclined to believe that had Jon beat the shit ouf Theon, no one would have moved a finger. Actually, I think the Grejoy men might offer a hand.

That Davos/Missandei scene was bizarre. Just plain bizarre, even though I know the goal there was to have Missandei praising Dany. I'm kind of tired of a third party propping Dany to Jon and vice-versa. If those two are going to hook up,  let them talk and tell each other about their lives.

By the way, Misssandei, it is not Lord Snow, it is King Snow, or Your Grace,. He is a king and you know it.

I can't believe that just now Dany realized that Tyrion wants to win the war, but doesn't want her full force on the Lannisters. I'm surprised she was surprised, but it makes sense, the only family she has ever known was Viserys, though the war council should have been an indication: Ellaria and Olenna wanted to destroy Cersei because she killed their families. Not because they liked Dany.

Jamie saw that huge fucking dragon coming and it takes him all that time to rember Qyburn's scorpion? Please. NCW's accent was distracting too. Loved Bron fighting and I'm glad that the middle of that Jamie seemed to remember that he is a general and actually someone who knows how to command and tried to organize the archers, etc. The Dothraki were really impressive and fearless. I've waiting to see them fighting in Westeros since Robert's "only a fool would meet the Dothraki in open field", and they didn't disappoint. I would have liked it better t without Drogon/Dany there, though, but I understand it was needed to create all that chaos. There were some nice touches, like people's ashes swept by the wind, but I could have done without the amputated horse.

See, I don't agree with Tyrion when he called Jamie stupid for going after Dany. We know Dany won't die, because, hello, hero!, but from Jamie's POV it was the right decision. Dany had her back to him, the dragon was on the ground, and he had a shot. Two more seconds and he would have killed her and ended the war. 

While it was a great battle, I didn't feel particularly attached to it. I still preffer Hardome and BoB.

"What have I done?" - Tyrion watching the Lannister troops being decimated.

One a shallow note, Arya and Jon should never have their hair up. They look much better with their hair down.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Raachel2008

[VCRTracking]

"Flee you idiot." "You idiot! You fucking idiot!"

Meera broke my heart.

It's like Sansa came home from college and her siblings are into weird shit.

Jon likes taking girls to caves.

[GrailKing]

8 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

It seems Qyburn's contraption isn't much use unless you luck out and get a head shot

So you either need a lot more of them being fired at the same time, or you need a much more powerful one that would likely have to be operated by multiple men

In book, it's stated they have to be hit in the eye.

IIRC.

[spottedreptile]

10 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

It seems Qyburn's contraption isn't much use unless you luck out and get a head shot

So you either need a lot more of them being fired at the same time, or you need a much more powerful one that would likely have to be operated by multiple men

Or you just need someone who can shoot straight ;)

Seriously, it's just not that accurate unless the dragon is large in the field of view, and then it's shoot or die. Or possibly both. And if we hadn't had The Hobbit then that scene wouldn't have been done, but it was good drama so I'll give it a pass. 

[Lemuria]

24 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Okay, I'm quoting myself because I was wrong.  Upon second viewing I noticed that the super bow (I forget what it's really called) is actually mounted on a swivel so Bronn could swing it around and aim it at Drogon no matter what Dany's approach vector was.

I believe it's a ballista (not to be confused with a catapult, trebuchet etc etc lol).

[Dev F]

8 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I disagree. Ultimately Dany ignored both Tyrion and Jon and did what she wanted. She took Oleana's advice.

No, I'd say she did pretty much what Jon suggested, which was halfway between what Tyrion and Olenna advised. Tyrion wanted her to avoid unnecessary civilian deaths by following a conventional military strategy instead of using her dragons; Olenna told her to stop worrying about winning everyone's devotion and just be a dragon. Jon was the one who told her that a) the dragons are what makes you special, so you can't just keep them on the sidelines, but b) you can't use the thing that makes you special to spread wanton death and destruction, either. And thus she used her dragonfire to attack soldiers in the field instead of burning down the Red Keep.

[Hecate7]

44 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

True, but I don't see much if any difference between torching civilian conscripts with dragonfire and torchi ng servants in the Red Keep

The difference is that the servants are unarmed and not marching against you or lobbing spears at your dragons.

[ElizaD]

12 minutes ago, arjumand said:

Yes, this. I can't believe how satisfying it was to me to watch Jaime get his. Because this was his fault, all of it. And no, I m not going to entertain for one second the 'poor Lannister soldiers, weep for them' bullshit. If the show wanted to do that, it shouldn't have shown (heh) me the previous episode - heaps of dead Highgarden people, concluding with an old woman being coerced to drink poison - and this episode, where I loathed everyone. Bronn laughing merrily over Dickon killing people he knew, Tarly wanting to flog his own guys, Jaime telling Bronn to go and brutalise the farmers until they gave up all of their food. I wanted everyone to die so badly. 

And I'm putting everything on Jaime. Surely it's not a coincidence that he spent the previous episode saying Dothraki so many times I kept expecting someone to autotune it and set it to EDM. And fucking Tarly mentioned the dragons, ffs. Jaime knew, and let his brains be sucked out through his dick. Now he can live with all that on his conscience, if he can dig it out from wherever it's retreated to. I hope that that was one of the thoughts going through his head, along with oh shit oh shit I'm gonna dieeee.

Yes! The burning smell of karma was delicious. Jaime didn't give a damn about the hordes of starving, raped and murdered civilians when the war was about the Lannisters winning and him killing everyone who got in his and Cersei's way. He and his sister created this situation and made it worse over and over again, he doesn't get to be horrified now that he's losing on the battlefield rather than seeing his enemies and all unlucky bystanders eliminated through murder or wildfire. A lot of people are saying this was a battle where they didn't know which set of characters to root for, but I had no doubts at all. It's too soon for Jaime to die and callous asshole Bronn will probably get a happy ending as his reward for funny quips, but I would have been ecstatic to see one of them get killed.

Really, what a major, major achievement this show is. It hasn't fallen apart, it hasn't gotten canceled, and in season 7 it's so huge that they can put a battle like this on TV.

[GrailKing]

[Constantinople]

1 minute ago, Hecate7 said:

The difference is that the servants are unarmed and not marching against you or lobbing spears at your dragons.

The soldiers weren't marching against Daenerys nor were they on a dragon hunting expedition.  They were marching back to Kings Landing when they defended themselves from an attack

More to the point, the soldiers are essentially as unarmed as civilians when facing dragon fire

[ParadoxLost]

6 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

That Davos/Missandei scene was bizarre. Just plain bizarre, even though I know the goal there was to have Missandei praising Dany. I'm kind of tired of a third party propping Dany to Jon and vice-versa. If those two are going to hook up,  let them talk and tell each other about their lives.

The scene with Davos and Jon that led up to it was really strange too.  Its almost like Davos has become giddy over having a King that he respects.  And he's displaying it through some guy ritual where strong feelings are portrayed through ribbing and pranks and joking.  Or like he's testing him to make sure Jon's priorities aren't changing.  As if he's showing just enough lack of deference  to make sure Jon hasn't turned into Stannis and still cares more about saving everyone than being King.  But whenever anyone else doesn't address Jon with the proper language, Davos points it out fast.

I mean Davos, who was illiterate until Shireen taught him to read, grammar checked the KITN tonight.  Its odd.

[KaleyFirefly]

3 hours ago, dbell1 said:

Dothraki need to be protecting their Khalessi better. She's on the ground, you go to her. The Unsullied should have kept a guard near her, or held some people back from storming the Rock.

When Jorah shows up again he will be her bodyguard!

[Constantinople]

Accidental post.  Please ignore

Edited August 7, 2017 by Constantinople
Stupid tablet!

[nilyank]

Quote

The soldiers weren't marching against Daenerys nor were they on a dragon hunting expedition.  They were marching back to Kings Landing when they defended themselves from an attack

More to the point, the soldiers are essentially as unarmed as civilians when facing dragon fire

They were coming back after attacking and killing the remaining forces of the Tyrells that were protecting Olenna and her keep. They are soldiers. They are in the middle of a war, not during peacetime. It is a horrible life because they have to commit horrible acts to defeat the other side and know that the same could be done to them.

[anamika]

16 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

How about asking for his assurance that, if she brings dragons and troops to fight the WW, he agrees to an alliance between her and the North, and he agrees to help her regain the Iron Throne?  A Treaty between two monarchs.  That would be give and take, too:  you help me to save Westeros from the undead and I'll sign a treaty that assures you I'll help in your fight against the Lannisters.

Dany, to me, is insisting on submission from him before helping to save the land that she wants to rule.  In other words, she seems to be counting on his being more concerned about the people of Westeros than she is.  It's just my opinion, but I don't think this particular aspect of the writing is making her look good.  

Why would she ask for an alliance? Did Aegon ask for an alliance? She is there to conquer the 7K and sit on the Iron Throne, not be Mother Theresa. She is offering to help Jon with her dragons and men and in return she is asking him to pledge his allegiance.

[magdalene]

The guy who plays Bran doesn't having the acting skills to convey much beyond coming across like a block of wood.  And without the awesomeness of her dragons the actor who plays Dany isn't much more than a vacant white haired Barbie doll.  I do think Kit Harington has improved since the early seasons.

But I do laugh when I compare the acting skills of Emilia Clarke with those of Lena Headey or the actor who plays Davos.

[SimoneS]

7 hours ago, Constantinople said:

The soldiers weren't marching against Daenerys nor were they on a dragon hunting expedition.  They were marching back to Kings Landing when they defended themselves from an attack

More to the point, the soldiers are essentially as unarmed as civilians when facing dragon fire

Sorry, but this is not how wars work. There are no time outs so that the enemy can collect their spoils and safely store them before returning to the battlefield. And if your enemy has an air force and you don't, well, it sucks to be you. You should have bent the knee to avoid your fate.

Edited August 7, 2017 by SimoneS

[RedheadZombie]

6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The soldiers weren't marching against Daenerys nor were they on a dragon hunting expedition.  They were marching back to Kings Landing when they defended themselves from an attack

More to the point, the soldiers are essentially as unarmed as civilians when facing dragon fire

Ramsay's forces had the advantage of horses during Battle of the Bastards, but I wouldn't expect Ramsay to order his soldiers to abandon their horses because the Wildlings were "unarmed" in comparison.