S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[Normades]

1 minute ago, All That Jazz said:

GRRM said in an interview a few years ago that his estate is arranged so that no one can ever finish any of his unfinished works. It's him or it's no one.

I wish I could dislike a comment, because I SERIOUSLY don't like this!!!!!

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, Heckler52317 said:

I think the proximity to KL is why. Wagons are too slow and they'd be harried all the way to their beachhead by Lannister forces. I see the dothraki/dragon action there to be a raid- destroy and kill then extract. 

I didn't understand the destruction of so much food and supplies either.  I'm not so sure Lannister forces would be all too keen to risk facing dragonfire again by following Dany's forces to Casterly Rock or Dragonstone.  I honestly assumed they had arrived primarily to turn those supplies around and use them to provision the Unsullied at Casterly Rock.

[Macbeth]

Nothing to see here.  My entry was in the wrong section.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Macbeth

[AshleyN]

I have to say, if Jon had decided to bend the knee to Dany, an action that he knows full well would infuriate his supporters, possibly to the point of mutiny, I'm curious how many posts there would have been calling him a big dumbass who doesn't learn from his mistakes.

Edited August 9, 2017 by AshleyN

[Heckler52317]

I'll start by answering my own question- to have a banter between characters and to show Bronn is good at everything. 

Question- where is the scorpion crew? You'd be training people in their use, and those dedicated crews would always be around that weapon. Thinking two crankers, a loader, gunner, and one or two spotters. As a former infantryman and military history buff that was making me a little bit crazy...

[Francie]

32 minutes ago, All That Jazz said:

GRRM said in an interview a few years ago that his estate is arranged so that no one can ever finish any of his unfinished works. It's him or it's no one.

If there's any truth in that, it really says all that there is to say about how much he cares about the readers of his work.

It's one thing to say that when you have little left on the table, and you don't want a John Lennon situation, where any scrap of recording, no matter how crude and undeveloped it was, is released. If he doesn't want a 2-page treatment stuck in the bottom of a drawer developed, fine.

But he's engaged in a major multi-volume saga, with crucial questions and reveals planned for late in the game. To not have enough respect for the fans, or frankly his work, to create a contingency plan is nothing short of total disrespect and complete egotistism.

It's enough to make me wish I had never started the series in the first place.

[Heckler52317]

39 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

  I'm not so sure Lannister forces would be all too keen to risk facing dragonfire again by following Dany's forces to Casterly Rock or Dragonstone. 

I'm uncertain on dragon physiology in the world- is there a limit to how often they can breath fire? Back when I played Dungeons and Dragons it was three times per day. Demonstrated that isn't the limit here, just wondering if there is one

[MrsR]

Dany burning the food.

 

There was a scene where Olenna details how much food High Garden provides to KL. She was talking MILLIONS of bushels of grain. Millions of caskets of wine.  And that's just what she provided to KL, not what High Garden used for itself, or sold to other lands.

That wagon train scene was a drop in the bucket for what High Garden was providing.

 

So you are attacking and you have two objectives, A) Kill the enemy, B) Take the provisions.  Killing your enemies is a given but you might not want to telegraph your second objective. Otherwise the enemy could use the knowledge of that objective to their advantage. Use the food as a cover.  So your first wave of attack is all about, if you pardon the expression, shock and awe, or as Sherman called it, Total War.

Let your enemy know that you are all in, that you will torch anything that gets in your way, including the food. Your enemy will drop everything to flee and you will win both objectives. So you accept a 10% loss, a cost benefit analysis so to speak.

Edited August 9, 2017 by MrsR

[Francie]

3 hours ago, Normades said:

I'm not clear on that rule because didn't Jaquen at one point appear with Arya's face?

 

3 hours ago, Drogo said:

Yes.  Right before she went blind.

I didn't interpret that moment to mean that they had actually taken Arya's face. It was all part of the potion and illusion.  It was more like a hallucination. 

Pretty sure it's all about the person whose face is taken being dead. 

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, Heckler52317 said:

I'm uncertain on dragon physiology in the world- is there a limit to how often they can breath fire? Back when I played Dungeons and Dragons it was three times per day. Demonstrated that isn't the limit here, just wondering if there is one

I wouldn't even begin to have the first clue about that.

3 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Dany burning the food.

 

There was a scene where Olenna details how much food High Garden provides to KL. She was talking MILLIONS of bushels of grain. Millions of caskets of wine.  And that's just what she provided to KL, not what High Garden used for itself, or sold to other lands.

That wagon train scene was a drop in the bucket for what High Garden was providing.

 

So you are attacking and you have two objectives, A) Kill the enemy, B) Take the provisions.  Killing your enemies is a given but you might not want to telegraph your second objective. Otherwise the enemy could use the knowledge of that objective to their advantage. Use the food as a cover.  So your first wave of attack is all about, if you pardon the expression, shock and awe, or as Sherman called it, Total War.

Let your enemy know that you are all in, that you will torch anything that gets in your way, including the food. Your enemy will drop everything to flee and you will win both objectives. So you accept a 10% loss, a cost benefit analysis so to speak.

Hopefully something like this will turn out to be at work here.  If there is even a shred of hope for Dany to rule she's going to need much more strategy than, stop this line of food to KL, chalk up a defeat for Cersei, mission accomplished.  We need to see her employing well thought out battle plans and forward strategies -- which Cersei has been brilliant at this season.  

[Heckler52317]

17 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I wouldn't even begin to have the first clue about that.

Hopefully something like this will turn out to be at work here.  If there is even a shred of hope for Dany to rule she's going to need much more strategy than, stop this line of food to KL, chalk up a defeat for Cersei, mission accomplished.  We need to see her employing well thought out battle plans and forward strategies -- which Cersei has been brilliant at this season.  

Totally agree- team Cersei has had the upper hand

[FnkyChkn34]

21 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Hopefully something like this will turn out to be at work here.  If there is even a shred of hope for Dany to rule she's going to need much more strategy than, stop this line of food to KL, chalk up a defeat for Cersei, mission accomplished.  We need to see her employing well thought out battle plans and forward strategies -- which Cersei has been brilliant at this season.  

 

3 minutes ago, Heckler52317 said:

Totally agree- team Cersei has had the upper hand

I think what we're actually seeing is Jaime vs. Tyrion.  The two ladies have shown that they rely heavily on the other experienced members of their teams for battle strategy.

[screamin]

30 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Dany burning the food.

 

There was a scene where Olenna details how much food High Garden provides to KL. She was talking MILLIONS of bushels of grain. Millions of caskets of wine.  And that's just what she provided to KL, not what High Garden used for itself, or sold to other lands.

That wagon train scene was a drop in the bucket for what High Garden was providing.

 

So you are attacking and you have two objectives, A) Kill the enemy, B) Take the provisions.  Killing your enemies is a given but you might not want to telegraph your second objective. Otherwise the enemy could use the knowledge of that objective to their advantage. Use the food as a cover.  So your first wave of attack is all about, if you pardon the expression, shock and awe, or as Sherman called it, Total War.

Let your enemy know that you are all in, that you will torch anything that gets in your way, including the food. Your enemy will drop everything to flee and you will win both objectives. So you accept a 10% loss, a cost benefit analysis so to speak.

Must'nt forget that Highgarden's production will be less than usual due to men being at war instead of planting and harvesting - AND that Westerosi winter lasts for YEARS - years in which there will be no planting or harvesting. What looks like a comfortable surplus will melt away real fast under such circumstances.

[FormerMod-a1]

18 hours ago, Francie said:

The moment when I stopped being Team Dragon: 

So count me as Team Lannister. I've enjoyed watching Peter, Lena, Nikolaj, and Charles Dance. Actors at the top of the game. I could never tire of them. 

You know, I was never convinced this was done by a dragon.  We never saw it, we had no hints of it before and haven't seen anything like this since.  Plus the timing of it, and the person that brought it to Dany's attention was suspect to me.  I feel for the family that lost their kid.  I actually thought this would be a plot point later on, about how the dragons weren't actually responsible, but alas that never happened.  So I have no proof one way or other that the dragons did not burn that child but for some reason I never thought they did.  

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

 

I think what we're actually seeing is Jaime vs. Tyrion.  The two ladies have shown that they rely heavily on the other experienced members of their teams for battle strategy.

Ooooh, I'd be looking around to make sure the Mountain isn't headed your way after that comment.  Cersei has been disregarded her whole life by Tywin for being a mere girl.  Ain't no way plenty of the decisions we've seen weren't by direction of Cersei Herself.  Tyrion was aware of his sister's intelligence, and specifically said Cersei would be ready for them at CR.  She outsmarted him.

Jamie may have been the commander on the field for this battle, but Tyrion most assuredly was not.  Dany was clearly in no mood to hear from him when she made the decision to take off with Drogon and the Dothraki.  I'd be curious to know if Tyrion was there watching at his own request or Dany's insistence.

[Couver]

35 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Dany burning the food.

 

There was a scene where Olenna details how much food High Garden provides to KL. She was talking MILLIONS of bushels of grain. Millions of caskets of wine.  And that's just what she provided to KL, not what High Garden used for itself, or sold to other lands.

That wagon train scene was a drop in the bucket for what High Garden was providing.

 

So you are attacking and you have two objectives, A) Kill the enemy, B) Take the provisions.  Killing your enemies is a given but you might not want to telegraph your second objective. Otherwise the enemy could use the knowledge of that objective to their advantage. Use the food as a cover.  So your first wave of attack is all about, if you pardon the expression, shock and awe, or as Sherman called it, Total War.

Let your enemy know that you are all in, that you will torch anything that gets in your way, including the food. Your enemy will drop everything to flee and you will win both objectives. So you accept a 10% loss, a cost benefit analysis so to speak.

Exactly. Plus I doubt that the Tarly's and the other turncoat vassal houses gave all of their provisions to Jamie. Cersei hasn't called the people of The Reach to mass in KL the way Jon has for the people of the North. I doubt those other houses would just turn over their food and resources to KL with their own people to feed during the winter. It does not benefit them at all. 

Dany has either killed or captured Randall and Dickon. With the Lannister army devastated she and the Dothraki should be able to secure control of what is remaining of The Reach. 

[DarkRaichu]

3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I don't feel chemistry (they have more in Emilia's instagram). I feel we are watching two young leaders figure it out. Dany has not had her equal since, well ever. And Jon has never seen a woman in power other than Caitlyn. 

I like where you are heading and I hope you are right but it is more likely you are giving the writers too much credits

[screamin]

11 minutes ago, Couver said:

Exactly. Plus I doubt that the Tarly's and the other turncoat vassal houses gave all of their provisions to Jamie. Cersei hasn't called the people of The Reach to mass in KL the way Jon has for the people of the North. I doubt those other houses would just turn over their food and resources to KL with their own people to feed during the winter. It does not benefit them at all. 

 

Tarly and Bronn were sent explicitly to threaten the farms around (presumably those whose lords had remained faithful to Olenna) to give up their food stores...and the Lannisters had defeated Highgarden's forces and had an army to threaten the farmers with. The benefit the Reach's farmers could expect from handing over their food was NOT to be immediately speared - if they refused, the Lannisters would likely spear them and take the food anyway.

Edited August 9, 2017 by screamin

[KarenTargaryen]

Does Arya know that Rickon is dead? 

[tennisgurl]

I actually like seeing Jon and Dany together, as they have an interesting dynamic of two young leaders who have found themselves running huge groups of people. I don't see any romantic chemistry though. Like, at all. 

[Tikichick]

7 minutes ago, KarenTargaryen said:

Does Arya know that Rickon is dead? 

That is absolutely a conversation we should have seen.

[FnkyChkn34]

31 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Ooooh, I'd be looking around to make sure the Mountain isn't headed your way after that comment.  Cersei has been disregarded her whole life by Tywin for being a mere girl.  Ain't no way plenty of the decisions we've seen weren't by direction of Cersei Herself.  Tyrion was aware of his sister's intelligence, and specifically said Cersei would be ready for them at CR.  She outsmarted him.

Jamie may have been the commander on the field for this battle, but Tyrion most assuredly was not.  Dany was clearly in no mood to hear from him when she made the decision to take off with Drogon and the Dothraki.  I'd be curious to know if Tyrion was there watching at his own request or Dany's insistence.

I'll give you Cersei.  But I definitely think she consults with others as well.  But Dany?  She's clueless.  She wanted to melt the Red Keep; it took Jon to stop her.  This was obviously (to me) someone else's idea.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I'll give you Cersei.  But I definitely think she consults with others as well.  But Dany?  She's clueless.  She wanted to melt the Red Keep; it took Jon to stop her.  This was obviously (to me) someone else's idea.

Certainly Cersei consults with others.  In the end the buck stops with her, period, full stop.  

Dany has been shown to be more malleable, willing to listen to what she thinks are wiser heads prevailing.  Her fury on the beach and lashing out at Tyrion to the point of questioning his loyalties convinces me she took Jon's words in and came up with this plan herself.  She's been wanting to prove herself the dragon queen. and been talked out of it for fear of being seen more in the light of the Mad King's daughter.  Jon urged her to look to a way to convince the people she is the dragon queen and will use that power compassionately and in their best interest.  IMO this is what Dany herself came up with.   (Varys in the preview gives support to this idea as well.)

If destroying the food turns out to be a bad choice it will have been hers.  Even if it wasn't there will be no convincing anybody that the queen who was astride that dragon wasn't calling the shots and entirely okay with the results.      

[Francie]

52 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

 

I think what we're actually seeing is Jaime vs. Tyrion.  The two ladies have shown that they rely heavily on the other experienced members of their teams for battle strategy.

Exactly. And they both are supporting individuals who are all about the power and not at all about ruling.  Both women are engaging in scorched earth tactics. Literally. 

[Normades]

4 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I don't feel chemistry (they have more in Emilia's instagram). I feel we are watching two young leaders figure it out. Dany has not had her equal since, well ever. And Jon has never seen a woman in power other than Caitlyn. 

I had never thought of that before.  I find that interesting.  That's what I love about these boards.  You all are always giving new dimensions to the story.

I find Cersei so interesting, too.  If Tywin had only given her the chance, she would have truly been the son he wanted.  Too bad he couldn't take a clue from Brienne's father and allow his daughter to aspire to her own dreams instead of being a pawn for him to use.  Of course, I still think she's a bad person, but the dimensions of her character are really intriguing. 

[SimoneS]

50 minutes ago, Francie said:

And they both are supporting individuals who are all about the power and not at all about ruling.  Both women are engaging in scorched earth tactics. Literally. 

All rulers both fictional and in real life are about "power and not all about ruling." However, Dany stayed in Mereen and ruled when she could have headed to Westeros. Also, Dany is not engaging in scorched earth tactics. If she was, she wouldn't have had so many losses so far which is exactly the point that the story is making. Daenerys is unwilling to deliberately slaughter innocent people.

 

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I think what we're actually seeing is Jaime vs. Tyrion.  The two ladies have shown that they rely heavily on the other experienced members of their teams for battle strategy.

No, we are seeing a Queen facing off with a wannabe queen. Of course, they are relying on more experienced advisors, but they are extensions of these two women, not men making independent decisions. The only reason that Jaime has outwitted Tyrion so far is because Daenerys has been unwilling to march on King's Landing. The whole story has been making this point. Unlike Cersei, Daenerys has always listened to advice and make her own decisions in the end. That is not being clueless as you like wrongly claim, that is called being a good ruler. All the great rulers (men and women) in history have been surrounded by knowledgeable thoughtful advisors.

Edited August 9, 2017 by SimoneS

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Normades said:

I had never thought of that before.  I find that interesting.  That's what I love about these boards.  You all are always giving new dimensions to the story.

I find Cersei so interesting, too.  If Tywin had only given her the chance, she would have truly been the son he wanted.  Too bad he couldn't take a clue from Brienne's father and allow his daughter to aspire to her own dreams instead of being a pawn for him to use.  Of course, I still think she's a bad person, but the dimensions of her character are really intriguing. 

The situation with Tywin and Brienne's father was different.  Tywin was trying to climb the political structure.  Cersei was merely a pawn he was deploying.  She had value because of her beauty -- and in the case of marrying Robert Barratheon she also brought along some gold he didn't mind spending freely.  

I really hate to say this part, but that potential was never available to Brienne's father to even consider that idea in the first place.  (Not that I'm suggesting he wanted to or would have wanted to do so.)  I find that so painful to write because I love Brienne on the page -- and I simply adore the Brienne the gorgeous Gwendolyn Christie brings to the screen. 

[Heckler52317]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

Certainly Cersei consults with others.  In the end the buck stops with her, period, full stop.  

A wise man once said 'a monarch is only as strong as his or her generals'. Ok, I just said it (call that my Tyrion impression)

But Cersei has had the world's greatest pirate, diplomatically swung the best living general in Westoros, and the council of her brother- an experienced commander in his own right. All that added to her own insight and instinct makes for a strong command group. 

[Heckler52317]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

Certainly Cersei consults with others.  In the end the buck stops with her, period, full stop.  

A wise man once said 'a monarch is only as strong as his or her generals'. Ok, I just said it (call that my Tyrion impression)

But Cersei has had the world's greatest pirate, diplomatically swung the best living general in Westoros, and the council of her brother- an experienced commander in his own right. All that added to her own insight and instinct makes for a strong command group. 

[tennisgurl]

You know, with everyone teaming up or fighting against everyone now, I honestly keep forgetting everyone's history, and looking back, it's kind of hilarious how many sides have been changed, and how many people have beefs with each other that they have to avoid for now. Especially knowing that everyone is inevitably going to be teaming up for the White Walker fight. It just makes me think of that Monty Python scene with "Let's not bicker about who killed who". 

[Heckler52317]

25 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, with everyone teaming up or fighting against everyone now, I honestly keep forgetting everyone's history, and looking back, it's kind of hilarious how many sides have been changed, and how many people have beefs with each other that they have to avoid for now. Especially knowing that everyone is inevitably going to be teaming up for the White Walker fight. It just makes me think of that Monty Python scene with "Let's not bicker about who killed who". 

I live in constant fear that somebody is going to bend the knee, then stand up and stab khaleesi in her beautiful face!

[FnkyChkn34]

43 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

No, we are seeing a Queen facing off with a wannabe queen. Of course, they are relying on more experienced advisors, but they are extensions of these two women, not men making independent decisions. The only reason that Jaime has outwitted Tyrion so far is because Daenerys has been unwilling to march on King's Landing. The whole story has been making this point. Unlike Cersei, Daenerys has always listened to advice and make her own decisions in the end. That is not being clueless as you like wrongly claim, that is called being a good ruler. All the great rulers (men and women) in history have been surrounded by knowledgeable thoughtful advisors.

Your point is bit of an oxymoron.  My point was that the women are listening to others, especially when it comes to battle plans.  You appear to be saying the same thing, but also not...

Dany specifically had no idea what to do when she got the news from Tyrion about Casterly Rock and Jaime overtaking Highgarden.  She wanted to burn the Red Keep and everyone surrounding it.  All of her advisers had to talk her out of it, including Jon.  She said "what would you have me do?"  Sorry, but that's the appearance of being clueless to me.  She didn't know what to do.  She asked others.  She was smart to ask others, I'll give her credit for that.  But we have no idea whose idea it was to attack the Lannister army, and it was apparently her idea to have Drogon burn all of the food and supplies.  So that's still being dumb, IMO.  We can agree to disagree; she has not made very many wise decisions lately, IMO.  And the original battle plan involving Yara/Dorne and the Unsullied/Casterly Rock was Tyrion's idea, not hers.

4 minutes ago, Heckler52317 said:

I live in constant fear that somebody is going to bend the knee, then stand up and stab khaleesi in her beautiful face!

If they would just stop short of that, but shave her eyebrows off, I'd be totally ok with that.

[rmontro]

6 hours ago, Normades said:

I'm not clear on that rule because didn't Jaquen at one point appear with Arya's face?

You're correct, I forgot about that.  It seems like since that scene, they've only used dead faces though.  So either they goofed on that scene or (more likely) I'm mistaken.

[SimoneS]

After rewatching the episode several times, I have concluded that Sansa's expression watching Arya spar with Brienne is shock and amazement at what her sister has become.

[Tikichick]

Just now, SimoneS said:

After rewatching the episode several times, I have concluded that Sansa's expression watching Arya spar with Brienne is shock and amazement at what her sister has become.

I thought I saw a little satisfaction there as well.

I sure as heck know Brienne's glance at LF was incredibly satisfied.

[Katsullivan]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

After rewatching the episode several times, I have concluded that Sansa's expression watching Arya spar with Brienne is shock and amazement at what her sister has become.

Sofie Turner's one of the weakest actors in the show and that's half of the problem with Sansa. But in all fairness to her, the writers are usually so all over the place about Sansa (and this is the second half of the problem) that Sofie probably didn't know what Sansa's face was supposed to emoting in that scene. 

[domina89]

58 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

No, we are seeing a Queen facing off with a wannabe queen. Of course, they are relying on more experienced advisors, but they are extensions of these two women, not men making independent decisions. The only reason that Jaime has outwitted Tyrion so far is because Daenerys has been unwilling to march on King's Landing. The whole story has been making this point. Unlike Cersei, Daenerys has always listened to advice and make her own decisions in the end. That is not being clueless as you like wrongly claim, that is called being a good ruler. All the great rulers (men and women) in history have been surrounded by knowledgeable thoughtful advisors.

Personally I think it is crazy that Tyrion didn't advise Dany to go immediately and destroy Euron's fleet once they heard of his attack.  Wooden boats are perfect targets for the dragons.  I realize Yara is among them, and that is unfortunate, but if Dany had done that, she would still have her own armada and Euron would hopefully be dead or, at the very least, no longer a player.  And also now that Dany knows the Lannisters have a ballista, she should only attack with the dragons at night.  She couldn't have her army in play if she did that, but it could certainly work if she attacked a fleet of ships or even a castle.

Also, all this talk of food running out... what happens when the DRAGONS run out of food?  ***shudder***

[Katsullivan]

8 hours ago, stagmania said:

That they're going to be romantically involved. I don't think it says anything about the chances of success for such a union (I tend to think every romance on this show is doomed). Interesting theory about one killing the other, though. Inadvertently or otherwise.

I've never paid much attention to music theme-analysis, but if I were to guess at anything apart from the obvious as you stated, it would be that after their journeys paralleling in so many aspects, including their first "loves", Jon and Dany finally find true love with each other, with their firsts being a "heralding" of what they'll share together.

I don't doubt that Jon loved Ygritte or that Dany loved Drogo. But both romances started out with various degrees of abuse and coercion. Jon and Dany falling in love with each other will be the first true love that they will fall in of their own will. 

*Not counting Daario because why I believe Dany cared for him, that was more physical than anything else.

22 hours ago, Francie said:

The moment when I stopped being Team Dragon: 

 

So count me as Team Lannister. I've enjoyed watching Peter, Lena, Nikolaj, and Charles Dance. Actors at the top of the game. I could never tire of them. 

It was never proven if this was really Drogo or a set up by the Sons of the Harpy to get Dany to conveniently lock up her dragons. 

Considering that there were no other incidents of children being consumed before and after, of Drogon or any of the other two after they were released...

I'm going to say that Drogon is innocent until proven guilty. 

Edited August 9, 2017 by Katsullivan

[tennisgurl]

I would really like a scene where Dany explains WHY she wants to rule Westeros, other than "because my dad was king" or some variation. I think I could root for her a lot more if she really thought she could be good for the people or provide them with something. Because without that, she's just another contender. One who treats her people pretty nicely, but still, she's starting a war a very short time after ANOTHER war that left everyone starved and hurting. It would be nice to have a better reason than Because if she's our hero. 

[Katsullivan]

9 minutes ago, domina89 said:

Personally I think it is crazy that Tyrion didn't advise Dany to go immediately and destroy Euron's fleet once they heard of his attack.  Wooden boats are perfect targets for the dragons.  I realize Yara is among them, and that is unfortunate, but if Dany had done that, she would still have her own armada and Euron would hopefully be dead or, at the very least, no longer a player.  And also now that Dany knows the Lannisters have a ballista, she should only attack with the dragons at night.  She couldn't have her army in play if she did that, but it could certainly work if she attacked a fleet of ships or even a castle.

 

Tyrion didn't want Dany to risk her life scouting on the dragons. WHY he thought she'd be at risk then when at that point in time, no one knew about Qyburn's scorpions is ridiculous. Especially after Dany did the same thing in Mereen when she bombed the ships attacking the city and won victory on that day.

 

But this plot convenient amnesia keeps happening as the show strays farther and farther from its source material. All through the "Loot Wagon"* Battle, Tyrion looked horrified at Dany using dragonfire but he did the same thing with wildfyre at the Battle of the Blackwater.

 

*Seriously, D & D? That was the best you could come up with??? 

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

It was never proven if this was really Drogo or a set up by the Sons of the Harpy to get Dany to conveniently lock up her dragons. 

It was Drogon.  There's never any indication in the show that it was a set-up, so the onscreen conclusion should stand.

However, I struggle to see this as a particular reason to back the Lannisters over Dany.  They have quite a few dead children on their hands, and those were intentional acts on their part, for the most part.

[Oscirus]

5 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Tyrion didn't 

 

But this plot convenient amnesia keeps happening as the show strays farther and farther from its source material. All through the "Loot Wagon"* Battle, Tyrion looked horrified at Dany using dragonfire but he did the same thing with wildfyre at the Battle of the Blackwater.

 

 

That was consistent, He was horrified at what wildfire did there too.

[sacrebleu]

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 I struggle to see this as a particular reason to back the Lannisters over Dany.  They have quite a few dead children on their hands,

up to and including every single Baratheon or suspected-Baratheon bastard. 

[Heckler52317]

55 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

If they would just stop short of that, but shave her eyebrows off, I'd be totally ok with that.

I have to agree- sometimes they are...distracting? But with her battle braids and war gown? outfit?- I have found Emilia Clarke stunning! Great work from the costuming etc folks

[Macbeth]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

That was consistent, He was horrified at what wildfire did there too.

Tyrion was horrified at the Battle at Blackwater.  He wanted to avoid that scenario, but given that his Queens have dragons and she is fighting the Lannister Army.....

 I don't believe he truly understood that by declaring war on Cersei that Jaime would die.  I don't think that had sunk in.  And to Tyrion - Jaime did die (with all that armor he should have) - He doesn't know that Jaime's armor was plated by D&D, inc.  Their Motto - "Armor that will get you through any plot holes."

I think by way of a siege around King's Landing - he was hoping the population would revolt and throw out Cersei - He should really have understood that would not of happened.  Tyrion was in a city under siege he should have kn own better.

[SimoneS]

45 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

I've never paid much attention to music theme-analysis, but if I were to guess at anything apart from the obvious as you stated, it would be that after their journeys paralleling in so many aspects, including their first "loves", Jon and Dany finally find true love with each other, with their firsts being a "heralding" of what they'll share together.

I don't doubt that Jon loved Ygritte or that Dany loved Drogo. But both romances started out with various degrees of abuse and coercion. Jon and Dany falling in love with each other will be the first true love that they will fall in of their own will. 

I agree. While Jon and Dany's first relationships had chemistry, I can never romanticize them because they involved coercion and deception. As much as Jon cared for Ygritte by end, I don't believe that he would have gotten involved with her if he wasn't a prisoner and trying to stay alive. Same with Dany. She would have never chosen Drogo if she hadn't been sold to him like chattel by her brother. If Jon and Dany fall in love and chose each other now, then I think they will be each other's best relationship/romance.

 

48 minutes ago, domina89 said:

Personally I think it is crazy that Tyrion didn't advise Dany to go immediately and destroy Euron's fleet once they heard of his attack.  Wooden boats are perfect targets for the dragons.  I realize Yara is among them, and that is unfortunate, but if Dany had done that, she would still have her own armada and Euron would hopefully be dead or, at the very least, no longer a player.  And also now that Dany knows the Lannisters have a ballista, she should only attack with the dragons at night.  She couldn't have her army in play if she did that, but it could certainly work if she attacked a fleet of ships or even a castle.

Also, all this talk of food running out... what happens when the DRAGONS run out of food?  ***shudder***

I have concluded that Tyrion is a shit military tactician. The Dragons are likely feeding from the ocean so they probably won't run out of food for awhile.

Edited August 9, 2017 by SimoneS

[iMonrey]

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I disagree. This is what can realistically happens due to food shortages in the next nine episodes:

I just think people are making way too big a deal out of the grain and supplies Dany burned up in this episode. By my count she burned perhaps a dozen or so wagons. That's an infinitesimal fraction of resources for a continent this size and probably an inconsequential thing to focus on in this episode and in that battle scene specifically. I think the whole point was for Dany to show her strength here so the Westerosi now know what she can do. I think it's extremely unlikely that the food she burned was meant to be a plot point by the writers and strikes me as a trivial thing to obsess about.

[Oscirus]

Just now, Macbeth said:

Tyrion was horrified at the Battle at Blackwater.  He wanted to avoid that scenario, but given that his Queens have dragons and she is fighting the Lannister Army.....

 I don't believe he truly understood that by declaring war on Cersei that Jaime would die.  I don't think that had sunk in.  And to Tyrion - Jaime did die (with all that armor he should have) - He doesn't know that Jaime's armor was plated by D&D, inc.  Their Motto - "Armor that will get you through any plot holes."

I think by way of a siege around King's Landing - he was hoping the population would revolt and throw out Cersei - He should really have understood that would not of happened.  Tyrion was in a city under siege he should have kn own better.

Tyrion  has a huge character flaw in that he wants to be loved by everyone  and it has a severe effect on his decision making. He only did those things in black water because he was backed up against  a wall. If given a choice, he will avoid the choice that kills alot of people at once

[YaddaYadda]

22 hours ago, Francie said:

The moment when I stopped being Team Dragon: 

So count me as Team Lannister. I've enjoyed watching Peter, Lena, Nikolaj, and Charles Dance. Actors at the top of the game. I could never tire of them. 

Charles Dance is just a superb actor. There can never be enough said about him. His scenes with everyone are some of my favorite on the show. One of the best changes from book to show was Arya being Tywin's cupbearer instead of Roose Bolton's. I thought it allowed the show to flesh the character more. 

That said, Tywin is behind the murders of Rhaenys (stabbed to death some 50 times) and Aegon (got his head bashed against the wall) and employed men like Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch and brought the Brave Companions in. Jaime shoved Bran out of a window and crippled him and he threatened to throw Edmure's baby against the walls of Riverrun once he was born (that's not reminiscent of Aegon's death at all). And Cersei had Barra murdered (it was Joffrey on the show if I'm not mistaken) because she had the misfortune of being Robert's bastard. 

The Lannisters don't have their hands clean when it comes to the murder of children. 

Also, anyone notice how similarly dressed and coiffed Jon and Arya were this episode. They gave her the half-bun during her sparring session with Brienne that Jon has had since last season. I thought it was a pretty neat detail.  

Edited August 9, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Oscirus]

I love that it's being ignored that Dany damn there got killed in this battle a few times. It would be quite stupid to send her on ventures by herself.