S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[Francie]

22 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

First part of the NW's oath "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death..."  Jon was technically dead so he was no longer bound by that oath.

Yeah, but does that count when you're only "mostly dead?"

[Uncle JUICE]

40 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Lord Varys, when he gloated to him about arranging Ros's murder just before he left King's Landing.

And to Tywin, I believe, who then tartly retorted "You say that as if you believe you're the first man to ever think of it."

[GrailKing]

33 minutes ago, Francie said:

It's absolutely going somewhere.  The first episode shows a man and daughter murder/suiciding themselves due to starvation We have Sansa and Jaime fretting about food. 

This whole story is going to the fact that the leaders of Westeros chose to fight each other rather than grow and store food for the winter.  The Riverlands has been devastated for years. The Reach's food destroyed.  King's Landing common folks have been starving for years.  At this rate, I'm hard pressed to see more than 10 to 20% of the general population surviving this upcoming winter.  

The end will be bittersweet, indeed. 

They have to tie the food to Sansa's Vale arc some how  she's aware LF is buying up all the food.

Ahhh just another butterfly in the mix.

[Chairman Meow]

The problem with going to bed as soon as the episode ends is that by the time I get here, all my points have been made (and likely refuted as well.)

Two things I noted:

1.  Dany and Missandei are totally going to be doing the Westerossi equivalent of margaritas and girl talk sometime soon. Their smiley exchange over what happened between GW and Missandei was adorable and made me grin like a loon...nice humanizing moment...for me anyway...ymmv.

2.  When Jaime was talking to Bronn about the wagon  of gold, didn't he specifically mention that it was ALL bound for the Iron Bank and that none of it would be going to the Kingdom's coffers?  I can't rewatch right now but I thought that there was something along those lines...which may play into any decision Bronn makes about sticking around if being guided purely by who can pay for his services...knowledge that Cersei and Jaime are broke.

[Colorful Mess]

30 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Bran: I saw your birth. It was a bloody mess. She died. 

LOL 

Oh yeah Bran's totally a meme now.   

[DarkRaichu]

14 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

But no one outside of Mel, Davos, Ed, or Tormund knows that he died. The only explanation I can come up with is, no one really cares about the NW anymore and if you want to leave, sure go ahead, no questions asked. If you died, you don't even need to offer that as a rationale for deserting.

Hmm I have to rewatch (it's been so long). I thought all NW on Jon's side knew about his death.  The other NW who opposed and killed him did not matter because they all died.

Edited August 7, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[GrailKing]

32 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

First part of the NW's oath "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death..."  Jon was technically dead so he was no longer bound by that oath.

IS! : )

[Dev F]

11 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

And to Tywin, I believe, who then tartly retorted "You say that as if you believe you're the first man to ever think of it."

That was in response to the same sentiment on Littlefinger's part, but not the same words. ("It is my belief that a moment of chaos affords opportunities lost soon after" is what he said that time.) The specific phrase "Chaos is a ladder" was unique to his conversation with Varys, a rebuttal to the Spider's assertion that chaos is "a gaping pit waiting to swallow us all."

Edited August 7, 2017 by Dev F

[FnkyChkn34]

59 minutes ago, Dev F said:

He did indeed say it: "All the gold's safely through the gates of King's Landing." But it's not an inconsistency; it just means a significant amount of time passed after the earlier scenes in which the gold was still in transit. Indeed, it seems like Tarly's report was specifically designed to indicate said passage of time. As was the earlier scene in which they made clear that it would take more time to collect the grain than the gold, and that Bronn would help with said collection. So when we see Bronn later with the supply train, we have to assume that he's finished "motivating reluctant farmers" and the grain he helped to collect is in transit.

Thanks for the clarification!  So then that also goes back to a different point I made - Dany is an idiot.  She torched all the food supplies.

[Tikichick]

7 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

HBO has been doing such a great job with this show that if George Martin publicly announced that he's been playing video games instead of writing for the past 6 years and has lost interest in finishing the book series at all I would be more than ok with it.

You take that back! 

Fair warning, I am off to see if I can possibly get my hands on a spare dragon, direwolf, catspaw dagger, vial of Dornish poison of any kind, mislaid jug of wildfire -- really anything will do in my extreme umbrage at your completely unacceptable attitude.  Oh no, this will not do.

JK   I'm enjoying the series, too.  But I hold out hope for the opportunity to end the journey as I began it around two decades ago, on the page with lots and lots of lovely descriptive narrative and soaking in the (hopefully) delicious end to each and every plot thread.

NeenerNeener indeed.

[MrWhyt]

2 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Thanks for the clarification!  So then that also goes back to a different point I made - Dany is an idiot.  She torched all the food supplies.

and how would she know that the gold was safe and that she was torching the food?

[ElsieH]

Wow that was pretty awesome (but I do agree that torching the food seems like a dumb thing to do-- even if the gold was still part of the train you would think she would want that too). I have a few questions:

 

1. When Arya shows up at the gate and they tell her Lady Stark is in charge, why would she ask which one? She knows her mother is dead, who else would it be? Does she really think Jon got married on the way to being king in the north?

2. How can Dany possibly see what Drogon is getting ready to torch? She was so tiny and far back riding on him, how could she see that he wasn't about to torch a group of her own soldiers?

3. How did Tyrion get to the battle? Wasn't he there on the beach when Theon got there and Jon said she was gone? Clearly there are a lot of different timelines going on I guess, since they all started at Highgarden and must have been pretty close to King's Landing when the big battle finally happened, but still seems fast (I know it happens every week, so I'm not getting too hung up on it)

 

PS - I thought when Sansa made that comment about "Jon's heart will stop" and then looked all weird it was because she knows that he died before.... heart literally stopped

 

PPS - Bronn really hesitated when his horse's leg got chopped and all his money fell out of the bag. I was wondering if he was about to run off right there. So is he just pissed he lost his money or really trying to protect Jamie?

Edited August 7, 2017 by ElsieH

[stagmania]

17 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

But no one outside of Mel, Davos, Ed, or Tormund knows that he died. The only explanation I can come up with is, no one really cares about the NW anymore and if you want to leave, sure go ahead, no questions asked. If you died, you don't even need to offer that as a rationale for deserting.

This all grows out of the show's ultraweird and still unexplained decision to mostly forget that Jon was resurrected, show no reaction to it from him or other characters, or examine what it means in any meaningful way. It's infuriating.

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

JK   I'm enjoying the series, too.  But I hold out hope for the opportunity to end the journey as I began it around two decades ago, on the page with lots and lots of lovely descriptive narrative and soaking in the (hopefully) delicious end to each and every plot thread.

NeenerNeener indeed.

For what's it worth: I have a friend who works for his publisher. I wouldn't hold out hope for him ever finishing this series, but he will probably keep churning out prequels and other related stories in the universe, so maybe you can get your prose fix that way.

[FnkyChkn34]

7 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

and how would she know that the gold was safe and that she was torching the food?

Because Tyrion and Varys and whoever else told her that Jaime got all of the food supplies from the Reach and Highgarden.  This was a pretty long discussion, where she also acknowledged that she needs food for her massive armies.  So even if she didn't know the gold was safe, she had to assume that they were transporting BOTH gold and food, and she was torching both.  Whatever it was, torching it was stupid.

ETA:  Even if it was just the soldiers' extra clothes and blankets, torching it was stupid.  Winter is coming.  Everyone can use all the supplies they can get - food, clothes, gold, blankets, weapons, horse saddles, etc., etc.

Edited August 7, 2017 by FnkyChkn34

[Pogojoco]

5 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

and how would she know that the gold was safe and that she was torching the food?

Tyrion would know that High Garden has gold and food. He would probably also be able to figure that the gold take priority (these are Lannisters. They pay debts.) It's a slow moving convoy. 

 

Also, Varys mentioned it to her. And she has said she needs food. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Pogojoco

[Tikichick]

6 hours ago, jellysalmon said:

I really enjoyed this episode right up until the last few seconds.   Everything about Bronn saving Jaime doesn't work for me. It doesn't ring true for Bronn's selfish character.  It doesn't make sense logistically (where did all that water come from?) and it is an anti-climactic way to end the episode. I mean I like show Jaime ok (he's no book Jaime) but if he either: 

1. Threw the lance at Dany and missed (left handed throw) then was killed by dragon fire. 

Or 

2. Gotten to her but hesitates and then is killed by dragon fire. 

edit: 3rd outlandish option: doesn't burn because he is secret Targaryen! 

Would have been a grand way to go out. 

It really felt like the show pulled it's punches by not having a major character go down after so much destruction. 

 

Also, let's send Bronn to fight the white walkers.  His plot armor will let him take down the Night King. 

How like Bronn would it be to bring Jamie up out of that water and turn it to his advantage by offering him up to Danaerys' side?

[lorbeer]

6 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Dany should take Dorgon and dracarys the hell out of the Red Keep. Take out Cersei and Mycroft too

Mycroft ;D

5 hours ago, Tikichick said:

 Littlefinger distinctly clocked Arya's explanation of the source of her training.  IMO he knew what it meant, even if Brienne and everyone else had no clue. 

 

How would he know?

3 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Hmm, methinks Tyrion was there as punishment for f-ing up the war strategy, ie. stay there on the hill and watch your Lannister brethren burn to crisp

My thoughts exactly..

 

In this episode I was both pissed on and impressed of Dany.. First her stubbornness about the Jon thing and then the nicely done battle :)

Edited August 7, 2017 by lorbeer

[Rocket]

I love that the master assassin has now received a weapon worthy of their talents. 

Now for Sansa to vist a lord while Arya learns all about Littlefinger from Brian. 

Sansa returns to find the flayed remains of Littlefinger. Arya says one of our enemies like to do this so I figured I give it a try on the man who betrayed our father.

(I like Littlefinger's character but it is about time for his just deserts)

The Mongols, the ethnic group and the much larger group of peoples who rode with the empire get confused. In part, Danny's forces are based on the Ottoman Army with a core of elite slave infantry and a much larger group of mostly light cavalry whose tactics were learned when they were part of the Mongol forces. 

Some of the tribes of Siberia who rode with the Mongols have a genetic and language link with the Apache. So in a way yes the charge was both Apache and Mongols. 

NO, Native Americans are not from the Mongols, but in part, both groups are from the peoples who lived in Asia and there are genetic links. And the plains peoples of Siberia and Western North America are closer than most. 

[Tikichick]

5 hours ago, Knuckles said:

The big moments in this episode were great...but I really enjoyed the smaller ones. For example,Jon striding up to a waterlogged Theon, and restraining himself from killing him on the spot. Nice touch...Theon pulling himself together and walking towards Jon, despite his fear of Jon taking his revenge. 

I hope Meera is not gone for good...her resemblance to Jon has always been striking, while she looked nothing like Jojen, I have always wondered if there were two babies born to Lyanna..wtith Ned taking Jon, and Howland Reed taking Meera. I did hope the two would meet. 

I had no idea who to root for in that battle...glad to see the Lannister forces finally get theirs...but seeing men reduced to ashes was horrifying. On the other hand, the Dothraki were themselves terrifying, and unleashing them on the people of Westeros is not endear anyone to Danaerys. Did anyone else wonder about the Dothraki comment to Tyrion, that the Westerosi "are shit fighters". Maybe the Dothraki, among them some Khals or would-be Khals nurture their own ambitions. Just a thought.

I believe Dany burned all of the Khals when they were together to discuss her being placed with the Dosh Khaleen or using her as they wished.  Judging by the way the remaining horde reacted when she emerged nude from that burning wreckage -- and then subsequently finding out she is the mistress of 3 massive flying beasts of incineration, I don't think any of the dothraki have even the slightest thought about crossing her.

[MrWhyt]

6 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Because Tyrion and Varys and whoever else told her that Jaime got all of the food supplies from the Reach and Highgarden.  This was a pretty long discussion, where she also acknowledged that she needs food for her massive armies.  So even if she didn't know the gold was safe, she had to assume that they were transporting BOTH gold and food, and she was torching both.  Whatever it was, torching it was stupid.

ETA:  Even if it was just the soldiers' extra clothes and blankets, torching it was stupid.  Winter is coming.  Everyone can use all the supplies they can get - food, clothes, gold, blankets, weapons, horse saddles, etc., etc.

what were her forces at the battle? A dragon and a Dothraki horde. The dothraki are raiders, they sweep in, kill everything they can and move on, the dragon is a flying napalm dispenser. Neither of them are suited for holding terrain. They'd have to guard a convoy of wagons heading to where ever they can load back onto Dany's ships, they'd be subject to raids just like the one they launched on the lannisters. You can't have Dany flying air cover for however long it takes to re-route and load the convoy that would increase the risk she would get killed, she also has other things to do. With the need to guard a convoy the dothraki would lose their most important advantage, their speed, every raid would cause them more losses. The smart thing to do with enemy supplies if you can't hold them for yourself is to deny them to the enemy.

[FnkyChkn34]

3 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Hmm, methinks Tyrion was there as punishment for f-ing up the war strategy, ie. stay there on the hill and watch your Lannister brethren burn to crisp

I didn't get the impression that he personally cared about anyone but Jaime.  I thought he was just revolted by the carnage of people in general turning into human flambes.  

[polyhymnia]

5 hours ago, Enigma X said:

When Brienne and Arya were jousting, what I saw in Sansa's eyes in the realization that Arya is a killer and has changed. I don't mean this in a judgmental way. I just think the whole "list" thing was becoming more and more real to Sansa and that her little sister is the real deal. I honestly think she was experiencing regret, fear, and sadness for Arya all at once.

And honestly, after her encounter with Bran (who is very changed) it is probably jarring.  She isn't naive anymore (or as naive) but it probably is still a surprise that both of her siblings have changed so much and been through so much.

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Greywatch at the Neck.

I wished they let Jojen and Her say the words to House Stark, but they didn't; maybe later if she and her father reappears.

I would love to see her show up later with her father.  I don't think there is enough plot time to make this happen but that would be pretty awesome.

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

English histories tend to focus more on the English victories during the Hundred Years War rather than their defeats, of which there were many.

And England lost the Hundred Years War

And really, the Plantagenet family was Norman and Angevin so in a way it was the French v. the French anyway. 

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

IDK, show Bran versus what I had in my mind's eye about Bran's fate in the books gives us a more humane, intact Bran.  Frankly in the books I was understanding him becoming a literal part of the weirwood trees root systems, which I understood were magical.  However, I was having a hard time accepting the little boy I met who found such great joy in climbing towers and had thoughts of flying free was physically going to be forever underground, part of  a tree. 

It is difficult watching this remote, detached person onscreen and feeling like that little boy is dead and gone.  But I really don't know that's all that much of a departure from the books in a sense.

I always figure that Jon Snow would be the one to come back more dead inside because of his resurrection (just from what happened to Cat and the different things that Beric Dondarrion said about losing pieces of himself).  Maybe it is just very, very distracting being plugged in the weirwood network.  Is he plugged in all the time? 

1 hour ago, lorbeer said:

Could someone remind me who did LF told "chaos is a ladder" to?

I think everyone already answered this by the time I typed - Varys and later to Tywin.
 

One thing that made me laugh a little was that Cersei couldn't get through even a pleasant meeting with the bank of Braavos without needing to drink some wine.  How is that liver doing, Cersei?  Also, Jaime was disgruntled about, what exactly, during his first scene when Bronn is trying to talk to him.  Killing Olenna?  Olenna killing Joffrey?  Cercei being a cold-blooded murderer?  If Jaime somehow ends up Dany's prison it would make absolutely no sense for her to do anything but roast him.  He killed her father and even though she might not think her father was anything but the mad king, there is no reason why she wouldn't execute Jaime on the spot.

 

ETA:  I really think it defies belief that the Dothraki horses don't get spooked by giant Drogon flying over them in the initial charge.  I guess you could make some argument that they are used to the dragons by now but, well, you can't really get used to the dragons.

Edited August 7, 2017 by polyhymnia

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, MrWhyt said:

what were her forces at the battle? A dragon and a Dothraki horde. The dothraki are raiders, they sweep in, kill everything they can and move on, the dragon is a flying napalm dispenser. Neither of them are suited for holding terrain. They'd have to guard a convoy of wagons heading to where ever they can load back onto Dany's ships, they'd be subject to raids just like the one they launched on the lannisters. You can't have Dany flying air cover for however long it takes to re-route and load the convoy that would increase the risk she would get killed, she also has other things to do. With the need to guard a convoy the dothraki would lose their most important advantage, their speed, every raid would cause them more losses. The smart thing to do with enemy supplies if you can't hold them for yourself is to deny them to the enemy.

OK, but she just denied the supplies for the entire country.  The country she claims she wants to rule as its beloved queen.  She claims to care about all her "subjects" and treat them all lovingly and humanely.  Torching the only large food supply for the coming winter is taking care of "her people"?  Methinks not.  

I disagree that the Dothraki couldn't transport everything back to the ships.  They were close to KL as it was; they wouldn't have that far to go.  And the Dothraki are very accustomed to moving as a nomadic horde - that's how they lived in the Dothraki sea.  That is their lifestyle.  In fact, I'd say there really is no one better to move supplies and food than the Dothraki.

[DarkRaichu]

6 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I didn't get the impression that he personally cared about anyone but Jaime.  I thought he was just revolted by the carnage of people in general turning into human flambes.  

Sure, but Dany did not necessarily know that he did not care about Lannisters.  On the beach she basically said Tyrion was not tough enough vs his own family

[FnkyChkn34]

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Sure, but Dany did not necessarily know that he did not care about Lannisters.  On the beach she basically said Tyrion was not tough enough vs his own family

Maybe that's where I'm missing the point, or getting hung up on semantics.  All of those soldiers weren't "Lannisters."  They were just unnamed foot soldiers fighting under a Lannister banner.  Tyrion didn't know any of them from a hole in the ground, so I don't see why he would care about them on a personal level.  If Jaime lives, who knows, maybe Tyrion will try to turn him against Cersei and to Dany's side anyway? But the army was just an army.  I think Tyrion knows the difference and doesn't care.  I think he was there because he is Cersei's Hand, and where she goes, he goes.

[Colorful Mess]

17 minutes ago, stagmania said:

This all grows out of the show's ultraweird and still unexplained decision to mostly forget that Jon was resurrected, show no reaction to it from him or other characters, or examine what it means in any meaningful way. It's infuriating.

It is ultraweird! It makes his narrative arc seem like it was generated by a screen writing app. "We need to get him to at x point so he can do y action." Go to prison for life --> learn stuff there --> find a loophole so you can leave --> don't explain how you got out, what you learned there, or even how you learned these things. Who cares how it shaped the character or how they react to their changes in circumstances or events. Or how other people view them based on said circumstances. Blergh. Just repeat the armies of the dead are coming. If I didnt know him I'd be wondering, what is your credibility here, Jon? He's losing face by not being transparent and it seems as if the show runners prefer it that way? Are you a Night's Watch defector, Lord Commander, or a king? Like who could prefer the show over the books because of this!! I'm having a conniption just thinking about it.

On the subject of kneeling and the cave scene - why can't Dany form an alliance with him without him kneeling at this point in time? Why cant she respect that his people chose him? Ahhh, isn't extortion romantic?!

[screamin]

26 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

what were her forces at the battle? A dragon and a Dothraki horde. The dothraki are raiders, they sweep in, kill everything they can and move on, the dragon is a flying napalm dispenser. Neither of them are suited for holding terrain. They'd have to guard a convoy of wagons heading to where ever they can load back onto Dany's ships, they'd be subject to raids just like the one they launched on the lannisters. You can't have Dany flying air cover for however long it takes to re-route and load the convoy that would increase the risk she would get killed, she also has other things to do. With the need to guard a convoy the dothraki would lose their most important advantage, their speed, every raid would cause them more losses. The smart thing to do with enemy supplies if you can't hold them for yourself is to deny them to the enemy.

Considering how fast a convoy of gold got to KL from Highgarden, I don't think that Dany would have to guard a convoy of food for very long to get it back to Dragonstone. And doing so would have another beneficial effect...it might draw more of the Lannister army out of KL to attack them to try to get the food back - exactly the kind of battle (soldiers unsurrounded by innocent civilians) that Dany would prefer.

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Maybe that's where I'm missing the point, or getting hung up on semantics.  All of those soldiers weren't "Lannisters."  They were just unnamed foot soldiers fighting under a Lannister banner.  Tyrion didn't know any of them from a hole in the ground, so I don't see why he would care about them on a personal level.  If Jaime lives, who knows, maybe Tyrion will try to turn him against Cersei and to Dany's side anyway? But the army was just an army.  I think Tyrion knows the difference and doesn't care.  I think he was there because he is Cersei's Hand, and where she goes, he goes.

They are unnamed foot soldiers but they are still part of the Lannisters' symbol/name which still means something to Tyrion.  Dany literally burned the Lannisters' symbol of power to a crisp

On second thought, a different way to justify Tyrion's presence was that he was local to the area and would know the best place to lay an ambush

[Heathrowe]

I don't mind Dany torching the food supplies. If they made it back to Cersei, it would just equip the Lannister's for a long, drawn out siege. This way, they have to fight.  And we can wrap the show up more tidily.  Totally agree that food and starving will be a future plot point.

I am really curious who ends up on the throne at the end of the series, or if it ends up being some kind of moot point-since we've certainly learned that it doesn't mean happiness and that the betrayals never end. Poor Westeros. I just can't imagine that we're going to end the series with any kind of happiness?

[Oscirus]

22 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

They are unnamed foot soldiers but they are still part of the Lannisters' symbol/name which still means something to Tyrion.  Dany literally burned the Lannisters' symbol of power to a crisp

On second thought, a different way to justify Tyrion's presence was that he was local to the area and would know the best place to lay an ambush

Tyrion told her about secret entrances to Casterly rock. It's obvious he's all in with dany. If anything  he likely came to prove his loyalty to her and implement  a battle plan since he'd be likely to know lannister  techniques 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Oscirus

[FnkyChkn34]

6 minutes ago, Heathrowe said:

I don't mind Dany torching the food supplies. If they made it back to Cersei, it would just equip the Lannister's for a long, drawn out siege. This way, they have to fight.  And we can wrap the show up more tidily.  Totally agree that food and starving will be a future plot point.

I don't mean to belabor the point, but Dany's Dothraki army was clearly winning.  The dragon (I don't know which one that was) was there for a show of might and a future threat.  He could have just been used to take out the army and not the supplies - and the supplies never would make it back to Cersei.  They'd be used to feed Dany's armies, and probably Jon's armies, and the people of Westeros.  I agree with Dany attacking the Lannister army, for sure - but I just can't agree with her destroying the supplies.  So, so incredibly stupid.  Had it been an accident as collateral damage, fine, but there was the distinct show of the dragon purposely going straight down the road and targeting the wagons.  I see NO reason for that.  None.  (She didn't know they had a special dragon weapon, either, so it's not like she was just taking out all wagons as a precaution to take out it.)

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

Being from Bravos or ties to it, he with his connections, would have heard those words a few times in his life.

I thought he was from somewhere in the Riverlands and had known Catelyn and Lysa since they were all young?

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I thought he was from somewhere in the Riverlands and had known Catelyn and Lysa since they were all young?

LF's grandfather was from Braavos and in service to House Corbray. He took the Titan of Braavos for his sigil. LF was born in the Fingers and was Hoster Tully's ward until his duel with Brandon Stark, he was 15 when that happened.

Edited August 7, 2017 by YaddaYadda
It's the Titan...T-i-t-a-n of Braavos, not the giant.

[Rocket]

I loved Arya's example of why the idea male body went from the bulky large muscle man to fight in armor with a broad sword to a shorter male thin dancer build to fight without armor with something in the Rapier family, especially when fighting a duel in particular. Now Arya needs the lunge to truly make her style superior. The switch to the more modern fencing style was a significant development as the lunge and thrust proved superior to the slash. Even carvery switched from a good deal of curve in the saber to an almost straight saber as they switched from coming in swinging a sword to holding the sword point first and thrusting it at the enemy. 

The dragon flamed the convoy because it would look cool. Sort of like everyone running around without helmets when they would have worn them. But the producers might have come up with a good military excuse. 

But seriously we have not been given the strategic situation with the convoy burning which is always a burn or leave the bridge up type of thing. There is almost always pro's and cons. There can be good reasons to burn, in particular, if they are not returning to the ships as the ships are running to Dragonstone to avoid being sunk. Danny might be on a raid and burn strategy. Danny does not have a land fort to put the grain in. And leaving the ships near King's landing to take on grain risks them being sunk like the rest of her fleet. Not to mention fully loaded ships don't fight well. 

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, Rocket said:

I loved Arya's example of why the idea male body went from the bulky large muscle man to fight in armor with a broad sword to a shorter male thin dancer build to fight without armor with something in the Rapier family, especially when fighting a duel in particular. Now Arya needs the lunge to truly make her style superior. The switch to the more modern fencing style was a significant development as the lunge and thrust proved superior to the slash. Even carvery switched from a good deal of curve in the saber to an almost straight saber as they switched from coming in swinging a sword to holding the sword point first and thrusting it at the enemy. 

The dragon flamed the convoy because it would look cool. Sort of like everyone running around without helmets when they would have worn them. But the producers might have come up with a good military excuse. 

But seriously we have not been given the strategic situation with the convoy burning which is always a burn or leave the bridge up type of thing. There is almost always pro's and cons. There can be good reasons to burn, in particular, if they are not returning to the ships as the ships are running to Dragonstone to avoid being sunk. Danny might be on a raid and burn strategy. Danny does not have a land fort to put the grain in. And leaving the ships near King's landing to take on grain risks them being sunk like the rest of her fleet. Not to mention fully loaded ships don't fight well. 

Yeah, who knows where Euron's fleet is now.  He might zap back to KL (from CR) in a split second and burn the remaining ship in Dany's fleet :D :D :D

[Tikichick]

11 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

LF's grandfather was from Braavos and in service to House Corbray. He took the giant of Braavos for his sigil. LF was born in the Fingers and was Hoster Tully's ward until his duel with Brandon Stark, he was 15 when that happened.

Thank you, I was thinking the Fingers but wasn't sure.  Should have engaged my brain and remembered more clearly -- his name is Petyr Baelish, known as Littlefinger, and realized the Fingers was correct.

Now that I know the family hails out of Braavos, I'm starting to think one of my suspicions may bear fruit.  It also makes it clear to me he definitely understood the inference of "No One", even if he was alone in that recognition.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Tikichick

[screamin]

6 minutes ago, Rocket said:

I loved Arya's example of why the idea male body went from the bulky large muscle man to fight in armor with a broad sword to a shorter male thin dancer build to fight without armor with something in the Rapier family, especially when fighting a duel in particular. Now Arya needs the lunge to truly make her style superior. The switch to the more modern fencing style was a significant development as the lunge and thrust proved superior to the slash. Even carvery switched from a good deal of curve in the saber to an almost straight saber as they switched from coming in swinging a sword to holding the sword point first and thrusting it at the enemy. 

The dragon flamed the convoy because it would look cool. Sort of like everyone running around without helmets when they would have worn them. But the producers might have come up with a good military excuse. 

But seriously we have not been given the strategic situation with the convoy burning which is always a burn or leave the bridge up type of thing. There is almost always pro's and cons. There can be good reasons to burn, in particular, if they are not returning to the ships as the ships are running to Dragonstone to avoid being sunk. Danny might be on a raid and burn strategy. Danny does not have a land fort to put the grain in. And leaving the ships near King's landing to take on grain risks them being sunk like the rest of her fleet. Not to mention fully loaded ships don't fight well. 

Yes, but ANY wooden ships wouldn't fight well against a flying dragon. It would have been a good chance to flush out and destroy Euron's fleet if he'd tried to attack her ships.

[Oscirus]

10 minutes ago, Rocket said:

I loved Arya's example of why the idea male body went from the bulky large muscle man to fight in armor with a broad sword to a shorter male thin dancer build to fight without armor with something in the Rapier family, especially when fighting a duel in particular. Now Arya needs the lunge to truly make her style superior. The switch to the more modern fencing style was a significant development as the lunge and thrust proved superior to the slash. Even carvery switched from a good deal of curve in the saber to an almost straight saber as they switched from coming in swinging a sword to holding the sword point first and thrusting it at the enemy.

I take it you've never seen rob roy

[YaddaYadda]

6 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Thank you, I was thinking the Fingers but wasn't sure.  Should have engaged my brain and remembered more clearly -- his name is Petyr Baelish, known as Littlefinger, and realized the Fingers was correct.

Now that I know the family hails out of Braavos, I'm starting to think one of my suspicions may bear fruit.  It also makes it clear to me he definitely understood the inference of "No One", even if he was alone in that recognition.

I know for sure that in AGOT, Pycelle brought up the Faceless Men to assassinate Dany, and LF asked him if he knew how expensive they were. I don't remember if that was in the show though.

[Normades]

2 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

 Jon was technically dead so he was no longer bound by that oath.

He was not only nearly dead, he was really most sincerely dead.  Undeniably and reliably dead!

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Normades said:

He was not only nearly dead, he was really most sincerely dead.  Undeniably and reliably dead!

The question is, how far has that news spread?  It doesn't seem to be widely known.   And if not, why are not many more questioning the breaking of his NW oath?

Truthfully I feel this is a detail pushed aside in the interest of time.  It bugs so much considering where we opened this story -- and what Jon's story is supposed to be focused on, at least in his mind.

[SimoneS]

28 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

The question is, how far has that news spread?  It doesn't seem to be widely known.   And if not, why are not many more questioning the breaking of his NW oath?

Truthfully I feel this is a detail pushed aside in the interest of time.  It bugs so much considering where we opened this story -- and what Jon's story is supposed to be focused on, at least in his mind.

With the North at war, oaths to the Night Watch become irrelevant. The lords simply don't care if Jon came back from the dead or not because they need Jon to take on the role of King of the North. Besides as king, Jon can invalidate the oaths of all the brothers in the Watch.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

With the North at war, oaths to the Night Watch become irrelevant. The lords simply don't care if Jon came back from the dead or not because they need Jon to take on the role of King of the North. Besides as king, Jon can invalidate the oaths of all the brothers in the Watch.

I thought the Watch was specifically supposed to be beholden to no king?

[Yokosmom]

Quote

I really enjoyed this episode right up until the last few seconds.   Everything about Bronn saving Jaime doesn't work for me. It doesn't ring true for Bronn's selfish character. 

I assume that he saved Jamie because he is his only hope of getting that castle.  That said, he is perfectly capable of turning on Jamie whenever it proves to be opportune.  He is definitely getting frustrated with the lack of follow through on the promises that have been made to him.

[SimoneS]

33 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I thought the Watch was specifically supposed to be beholden to no king?

The NW is not autonomous even if they think they are. It is the king who gives the lords the authority to send young men to the NW. Circumstances change and they have for the NW. 

 

3 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Possibly Pod is fantastic fighting your average soldiers.  Pod is training with Brienne to be a knight, which is a step up.  And to be fair, Brienne kicks ass as a knight -- ask the Hound.

I agree. Pod could probably beat the average soldier and take quite a few Wights. It takes years starting very young to come close to being as good as Brienne who is a superior swords person.

Edited August 7, 2017 by SimoneS

[Willowy]

I've read through all the pages but unless I missed it, nobody has brought up the possibility of the harpoon that nicked Drogon being poisoned. Now, Bron did handle it with his bare hands, and the sheer amount of poison that would have to be used to affect a beast of Drogon's mass would have to be huge, but both Cersei and Qyburn LOVE their poisons. Another thing could be is that Qyburn magicked a spell on the spear, like making it, I don't know... 'dissolve dragon bones' or something.

I find it hard to believe that the grain in that caravan was the ONLY food left in Westeros. There's more where that came from, or from other sources like The Vale. Dany did the right thing by burning it, if for no other reason than to prevent Cersei from hogging it all, which she no doubt would've. Also, Sansa's grain hoarding might be influential in striking a deal between Jon and Dany, as well. Not to mention all the horsemeat prancing around.

As someone upthread who I agreed with said, the Dothraki needed this. They've been semi-tamed by the events of late, and they needed an outlet for a bit of healthy mayhem and ravaging. WOW they were fast! And the standing up on horseback to shoot the arrows was so impressive (it wasn't CGI'd, either. It was stunt people actually doing that!)! I love Hardhome, but this battle had me up out of my chair.

As to the Stark kids, I'm not sure whey everyone thinks they're supposed to be all normally normal. They have all been through THE SHIT, each in their own ways, and would logically be tempered by it.

Bran - you gotta hand it to the kid to be able to vocalize at all. He's existing on every plane of existence there is with the sum total knowledge of eons and the entire world jammed into his brain.

Arya's a fighter, a warrior really, with madly honed skillz. Also an exceptional judge and executioner.

Sansa's political cunning gets sharper by the day, and she's developing her leadership skills alongside that. I loved the embraces, and of course they would do that because they want to remember each other as they were... but they soon got down to brass tacks about who each of them ARE now, as adolescents. Which let's face it, in Medieval times that was well into adulthood.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

The NW is not autonomous even if they think they are. It is the king who gives the lords the authority to send young men to the NW. Circumstances change and they have for the NW. 

 

I agree. Pod could probably beat the average soldier and taken quite a few Wights. It take years starting very young to come close to being as good as Brienne who is a superior swords person.

Ostensibly according to what you have said the NW would have been taking its authority from the king on the IT.

During the war of the 5 kings they made no pronouncements about which king they were accepting as the authority.  Stannis even visited the Wall.

Obviously the command at the Wall has loyalty to Jon.  Are you suggesting that they have declared Jon the true king?

[AshleyN]

• I think that that's the first time since Astapor that they've really managed to thrill me with the dragons. I think it was partly because this is the first time we've seen Dany and them going up against real characters as opposed to strawman villains, and partly because (as was pointed out early in the thread) it's the first time we've actually seen the Lannister army on the receiving end of an asskicking. Either way, that moment where Drogon approaches flying over the Dothraki was spectacular.
• That being said, I agree that Dany may come to regret burning up all that food instead of securing it for herself.
• I liked the way they used the scorpion. It caused enough damage to show that the dragon's aren't invulnerable, but it's not powerful enough to take one down by just landing a shot anywhere. I think one of them is going down to one but it won't be Drogon, who I expect to be the last one standing.
• Did anyone else find the contrast between Missandei's "We follow Dany because we choose too and she'd be totally cool if we decided to leave tomorrow" speech and Dany's Stannis-esque "bend the knee or else" attitude kind of jarring? I mean, have you considered giving Jon and the Northerners a reason to want you as their queen (like say, helping him save the world from ice zombies)? And I know that her line about choosing between his people and his pride was meant to be a callback to what Jon said to Mance, but it didn't work for me because: a) Daenerys Stormborn of the 10 000 titles criticizing other people for pride is a bit rich, b) Jon's reluctance to bend the knee to her has nothing to do with pride, and (most importantly) c) the reason Jon earned the allegiance of the Wildlings (as opposed to Stannis) is because he didn't force them to kneel to him and instead respected their freedom and independence (along with, you know, saving them from ice zombies).
• I really liked how they played the Arya/Sansa reunion. Just the right mix of sentiment and hesitancy, given how they felt about each other when they were separated.
• I noticed they made sure to point out that Littlefinger's dagger is Valyrian steel. Is Arya going to be killing a White Walker?
• I've seen people complaining about Littlefinger seeming irrelevant this season, but as someone who's been over him for awhile I'm enjoying seeing him slowly realize that he may have gotten himself in over his head here. He's built for politics and scheming, but now he's found himself in a world where the rules are different* and he might not have the tools to deal with it. Quite similar to Season 1 Ned, which is rather poetic really.

*Especially since all three Starks are, in their own way, specifically trained to see through his bullshit.

[Growsonwalls]

I actually think Sophie Turner's acting as Sansa is on point in that it shows what she's become -- no longer the naive, silly, snobbish girl in Season 1, but a hardened survivor who doesn't show much emotion. I think when Sansa was watching Arya fight with Brienne she was unsettled because it reminded her that Arya's journey has probably been as dark as hers and they really have to start over. It's not unusual when reuniting with long-lost family members. The bond is still there but needs to be rebuilt. 

[SimoneS]

9 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Ostensibly according to what you have said the NW would have been taking its authority from the king on the IT.

During the war of the 5 kings they made no pronouncements about which king they were accepting as the authority.  Stannis even visited the Wall.

Obviously the command at the Wall has loyalty to Jon.  Are you suggesting that they have declared Jon the true king?

No, I think that circumstances have changed and that the NW has to change with them. If Jon is named the King of the North, the NW has to accept that his oath is now invalidated and move on. If he is the new king and decides to stop sending men or decides to empty out the Wall, there is nothing that the NW can do about it. Even institutions that have been static for centuries can be forced to change by circumstances. Look at Sam, he has clearly broken his oath of chastity and has a common law wife and child, yet he is still training to be the maester of the NW. When he returns, he will have Jon and Edd's support so he will be the first maester with a family. Ultimately, I think that NW and Wall will no longer exist by the time this story is done or if they exist, they will have gone through radical changes to match the new era.

Edited August 7, 2017 by SimoneS