S07.E02: Stormborn

[FemmyV]

8 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I hope what Aiden mentioned once, is true; saw no leaks on it though.

 

  Hide contents

let's just say he gets very winded.

No idea what this is alluding to, but I hope it's not very stinky :0

[FnkyChkn34]

5 minutes ago, anamika said:

I rather they had the Jon/Ghost scene in there than the pointless Jon/LF scene. Would have made a nice parallel with the Arya/Nymeria scene. Last we saw Ghost was in episode 602. What a waste.

Sorry, but I didn't think that was pointless.  It shows that Jon isn't taking any of LF's shit and he doesn't trust him.  And it was a nice parallel to when Ned had LF by the throat threatening him as well.

[screamin]

12 minutes ago, huahaha said:

Dany was pretty clear with Daario that she's planning to marry in order to secure the realm. Jon has the north. I can't think of a more advantageous alliance at this point. He may be thinking of White Walkers, but she isn't.

Jon has great natural advantages that she will no doubt appreciate upon seeing him. :) But none of those advantages give her a military boost. Jon has the North, and if he marries her, she's be able to say she has the North - but she will get no soldiers or help from him to win the Iron Throne. Jon can't spare an army to ride south. In fact, in giving one or more dragons for Jon to use in the war against the White Walkers, an alliance with Jon would actually weaken her in her bid for the Iron Throne.

Now, if Jon manages to convey the dangers of the Night King in a manner she can believe (his presentation of the facts will be no doubt helped by his hot manly manliness), I can see her deciding that marriage to Jon would secure the realm against the worse threat of the White Walkers. But doing so would weaken her in her fight against Cersei.

Edited July 24, 2017 by screamin

[Boilergal]

When all the house leaders were trying to demand John not go to meet Dany -

    Me - SHUT UP!! LET HIM GO!!!!!!!!

When Euron dropped the drawbridge (?) on Yara's ship -

    Me - Ohhh look we just went all Pirates of the Carribean

I thought Arya was going to be meeting some White Walkers, relieved it was just direwolves, happy to see Nymeria.

Cheered when John put LF into the wall

[FnkyChkn34]

2 minutes ago, screamin said:

Jon has great natural advantages that she will no doubt appreciate upon seeing him. :) But none of those advantages give her a military boost. Jon has the North, and if he marries her, she's be able to say she has the North - but she will get no soldiers or help from him to win the Iron Throne. Jon can't spare an army to ride south. In fact, in giving one or more dragons for Jon to use in the war against the White Walkers, an alliance with Jon would actually weaken her in her bid for the Iron Throne.

Now, if Jon manages to convey the dangers of the Night King in a manner she can believe (his presentation of the facts will be no doubt helped by his hot manly manliness), I can see her deciding that marriage to Jon would secure the realm against the worse threat of the White Walkers. But doing so would weaken her in her fight against Cersei.

She doesn't really want to use her dragons to win the Iron Throne though anyway.  She doesn't want to burn it all down and be queen of ashes - that has been made clear multiple times.  So honestly, if she can convince the people that White Walkers are the threat, and her dragons kill the WWs, then she has saved the people.  They'll be forever grateful and welcome her as queen.  Getting rid of Cersei at that point would be easy as pie.  She can let Cersei sit there for another few months if needed; especially if she's then seen as a hero in that time.

[GrailKing]

8 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

No idea what this is alluding to, but I hope it's not very stinky :0

I pm you.

[nodorothyparker]

On rewatch, I'm struck by all the historical callbacks and parallels being made.  Several characters go out of their way to remind Dany that the Mad King was a terrible awful no good very bad king and that sharing that name probably isn't going to do it for people who remember him.  I like that show Dany knows this and acknowledges it because her not wanting to hear anything negative about the Targaryens and still thinking of everyone collectively as the Usurper's Dogs five books in is one of the bigger things that makes it hard to root too much for her book counterpart.  As maddening as it may be to have waited so long to finally see her get there and then still not do anything, she's at least realizing that it's a little more complicated than showing up and letting the dragons and Dothraki loose on a country already wracked by war with winter setting in.

There are also good reminders in this episode from first Tyrion and then Sansa that both Lannisters and Targaryens have killed Starks when they came South.  I quite liked the scene at Winterfell with all the Northern lords objecting to Jon's announcement that he too would be riding South because you could see their fear that they were being set up for yet another round of Rickard, then Ned, then Robb heading that direction and never coming back.  It retroactively also makes some of their hesitance last season to immediately drop everything and join the fight to take back Winterfell make sense.  Why back a house that regularly seems to make choices that get its leaders and anyone following them killed?

Nearly lost in all the Jon propping to Dany was Varys talking about how Robert's failure as a king was that he never wanted to be one and then several scenes later we get Jon declaring yet again that he never wanted to be king.  Maybe it means something, maybe it doesn't.    But it's hard not to wonder when Robert's entire story arc seemed to be about the very big difference between winning a throne and the actual day to day sitting on it. 

I didn't realize until this episode when Arya told him to try not to get killed how much I want to see Hot Pie survive this series.  He's not magical.  He doesn't have a great name or a great destiny.  He's just a generally decent kid taking pride in the work he does and trying to make it through.

[jeansheridan]

Ah but now we have Dickon Tarly!  He isn't from a great house, yet. If Tarly takes the Reach, suddenly the Tarlys become more valuable. And highly unlikely but there IS Jaime. Dany has always been bold with her marriages. Uniting those two houses, establishing peace then off to fight White Walkers. Jaime has always been unpredictable. Book and show Jaime.

[Francie]

22 minutes ago, huahaha said:

Dany was pretty clear with Daario that she's planning to marry in order to secure the realm. Jon has the north. I can't think of a more advantageous alliance at this point. He may be thinking of White Walkers, but she isn't.

I can.

Bottom line, why does she need to marry Jon? He'd willingly give her anything he could so long as she gives him dragonglass. They don't need a marriage pact.

[SeanC]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

From Bryan Cogman on Twitter "FYI... We shot a Jon/Ghost scene. Didn't make it in. I tried! Thx for watching, everybody. #Stormborn"

Ugh! I hope all these cut scenes make it into the extras.

It would have been cut before it was fully rendered, I expect, so what would be available would be footage of Kit Harington with whatever standin they use for Ghost.

1 hour ago, Francie said:

Who else is Tommen's heir? 

Note that the sigil in the opening is, surprisingly, still a Baratheon stag. Cersei is ruler by basis of her marriage to Robert and being the closest blood relative to a Tommen Baratheon.

Cersei has no claim to the throne, as the lords of Westeros would understand it.  She holds it because she had troops in the city and could take physical possession of the throne.  The idea that Tarly et al. would consider themselves as having sworn oaths to the Crown as represented by her doesn't pass muster.

[Francie]

Just now, SeanC said:

 

Cersei has no claim to the throne, as the lords of Westeros would understand it.  She holds it because she had troops in the city and could take physical possession of the throne.  The idea that Tarly et al. would consider themselves as having sworn oaths to the Crown as represented by her doesn't pass muster.

Then what's your answer to the question: Who is Tommen's heir? 

His Baratheon uncles are dead. His Baratheon cousins are dead. Who do you claim is the next in line, should the lords want to follow Tommen's heir?

[FnkyChkn34]

2 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Cersei has no claim to the throne, as the lords of Westeros would understand it.  She holds it because she had troops in the city and could take physical possession of the throne.  The idea that Tarly et al. would consider themselves as having sworn oaths to the Crown as represented by her doesn't pass muster.

This is the way I see it.  It does pass muster though in a way, because Tarly et al. would have to use their own troops and forces to forcefully take it from her if they disagreed that she's the queen.  They clearly didn't want to do that.

[nodorothyparker]

Since all of the many Tyrell cousins and siblings seem to have vanished from the show, I would imagine some of the Tyrell bannermen are looking at a great house that consists of one old woman with no heirs and seeing an opportunity to replace it if they side correctly in the coming fight.  At least that was the read I got on Randall Tarly.  There's the honor and obligations he was talking about and then there's the possibility of becoming THE lords of the Reach.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, Francie said:

Then what's your answer to the question: Who is Tommen's heir? 

His cat.

[GrailKing]

I may be wrong, but between the tension of Jon and Sansa last week and a difference this week; I want to expand my thinking a bit.

Last week I said I'm convinced Sansa is setting up LF, this week I think it's true, Sansa and Jon definitely got stuff ironed out.

2nd part:  This week was a small parallel to Joer Mormont and Jon at Craster's keep: " You want to lead someday ; learn to follow " 

Jon is training her subtly with Brienne there to protect her and the invisible   Ghost.

My thoughts, any who.

[huahaha]

8 minutes ago, screamin said:

Jon has great natural advantages that she will no doubt appreciate upon seeing him. :) But none of those advantages give her a military boost. Jon has the North, and if he marries her, she's be able to say she has the North - but she will get no soldiers or help from him to win the Iron Throne. Jon can't spare an army to ride south. In fact, in giving one or more dragons for Jon to use in the war against the White Walkers, an alliance with Jon would actually weaken her in her bid for the Iron Throne.

She doesn't want a purely military strategy. Any realm she can take bloodlessly is a huge advantage. She's already won over two of the seven kingdoms (Dorne and the Reach). Jon comes with the North and the Vale. They can deal with the White Walkers better as a united kingdom. Obviously, if the zombie snowmen come before Cersei is beaten, everyone's priorities need to change.

[SeanC]

Just now, Francie said:

Then what's your answer to the question: Who is Tommen's heir? 

His Baratheon uncles are dead. His Baratheon cousins are dead. Who do you claim is the next in line, should the lords want to follow Tommen's heir?

Tommen either doesn't have an heir, properly speaking, or it's some more distant Baratheon descendant.

Just now, FnkyChkn34 said:

This is the way I see it.  It does pass muster though in a way, because Tarly et al. would have to use their own troops and forces to forcefully take it from her if they disagreed that she's the queen.  They clearly didn't want to do that.

Or they could just ignore her and she'll fall.  She doesn't have the capacity to do them any harm (as long as they don't, oh, go to King's Landing to meet with her for some reason).

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Or they could just ignore her and she'll fall.  She doesn't have the capacity to do them any harm (as long as they don't, oh, go to King's Landing to meet with her for some reason).

Well, ignoring her wouldn't make for entertaining television, but moreover, I don't think that anyone just ignores anyone in Westeros. That would be very out of character.

[Dev F]

6 minutes ago, Francie said:

Then what's your answer to the question: Who is Tommen's heir? 

His Baratheon uncles are dead. His Baratheon cousins are dead. Who do you claim is the next in line, should the lords want to follow Tommen's heir?

It should be the closest living blood relative, whoever that might be. Even an extremely distant cousin would have a better claim than Cersei, as Cersei has no claim.

Which, as folks have mentioned, isn't a problem if she's ruling simply by dint of her military might and occupation of the capital, but the notion that she as a non-Baratheon has some claim to the throne through her purportedly Baratheon son doesn't track.

[huahaha]

13 minutes ago, Francie said:

Bottom line, why does she need to marry Jon? He'd willingly give her anything he could so long as she gives him dragonglass. They don't need a marriage pact.

Because he's a king, not a warden, and she isn't interested in a divided realm. If she'd like him to lay down power, so to speak, a marriage is the easiest way to do that.

I don't necessarily think the books/show are going to be that predictable. Just that that's how Dany thinks.

[Colorful Mess]

A Stark marrying a Targ is really bad optics. Jon would clearly piss off the Independent North by bending the knee to Dany, let alone marrying her. A Stark KitN, whose seat is actually in the North, needs to be there to keep the North in line. 

I cant see how it helps her either. If he isnt a Targ bastard then his claim is better than hers. Therefore marrying him could mean she's just the wife of the king. I think Cersei is actually the only female monarch doing it right: dont get married, Elizabeth I style. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Colorful Mess

[GrailKing]

35 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

Also, will Bran showing up at Winterfell cause issues with Jon and Sansa being in charge? Bran is the rightful heir to Winterfell.

I have two lines of thought on this, one I stated last week and the other below / above this post:

Sansa wants family, she acknowledge Jon as King and will follow, though she herself wants safety and family over personal rulership.

Bran coming back would be a relief to her, Bran would or should automatically fall into temporary Lordship; but his wanting and needing to stay in the trees and help Jon fight the WW will force her to take that role, and if that shot is Bran in the Weirwoods her upsetting look could be that or something else.

[Francie]

4 minutes ago, Dev F said:

It should be the closest living blood relative, whoever that might be. Even an extremely distant cousin would have a better claim than Cersei ...

You know that Cersei is, literally, his closest living blood relative, right?

[ChromaKelly]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

Davos spoke several lines, particularly in the scene where Jon gets Tyrion's letter.

Oh.. right. Derp. That reminds me though, Davos is familiar with Dragonstone, wouldn't he have known about the dragonglass?

[screamin]

4 minutes ago, Francie said:

You know that Cersei is, literally, his closest living blood relative, right?

I think Baratheon blood is the key here.

[Francie]

1 minute ago, screamin said:

I think Baratheon blood is the key here.

Other than Gendry, who is illegitimate (and Mya Stone in the books), there are no living Baratheons. That's my take as to how the lords are accepting of Cersei. 

[Conan Troutman]

2 hours ago, Miles said:

Really? Two sandsnakes couldn't take out Euron? That makes the show Dorne storyline even more pathetic somehow.

Also Euron was cut by one of them. If he isn't dead within the next episode I'm calling shenanigans of the highest order!

If I recall correctly, only Tyene dabbles in poison and she never got close to him (not yet anyway). 

2 hours ago, Knuckles said:

For all the fuss about the endgame  being female dominant, it seems they are spectacularly inept. So Yara and Ellaria are flirting with one another, and the sand snakes bragging about their prowess, while Euron sneaks up and attacks. So Yara doesn't bother to post scouts? And not a single crew member notices a thing?  For the record, I am glad the writers found a way to dispose of the sand snakes, and Ellaria may have more use as a battle trophy than a would-be ruler. Never bought in either the book or the show version that Dorne would follow Ellaria after her murder of Prince Doran, and nothing in the casting of the sand snakes suggested anything but addled mean girls. 

To be fair, it was very dark - if Euron told his crew to keep the torches under deck until the attack actually starts, it would be very, very hard to spot them. Maybe they could've sent scouts and maybe they even did - but they may well have been captured. I also heard a theory about someone in their camp being a spy for Euron, which isn't impossible - I doubt Euron planted him there before the Kingsmoot as he was pretty unprepared (otherwise he would've made sure to stop from from escaping in the first place), but maybe someone loyal to him thought quickly and just pretended to run away with Yara and Theon. 

Either way, that Euron managed to surprise them wasn't unbelievable, at least not to me. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Conan Troutman

[Haleth]

26 minutes ago, Francie said:

Then what's your answer to the question: Who is Tommen's heir? 

They would have to trace back the lineage for several generations to find his closest living relative.  I don't know who that would be but wouldn't it be ironic if it turned out to be Sansa?

10 minutes ago, Francie said:

You know that Cersei is, literally, his closest living blood relative, right?

His closest relative traced through his father.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Haleth

[Dev F]

19 minutes ago, Francie said:

You know that Cersei is, literally, his closest living blood relative, right?

Closest living blood relative to the Baratheon line, not to Tommen. Again, the notion that the right to rule somehow travels up the line from son to mother makes no sense at all.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Dev F

[Conan Troutman]

Why does it even matter if Cersei would be anywhere close to being Tommen's legitimate heir? The point is she took the Throne because she could. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Conan Troutman

[FnkyChkn34]

12 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I have two lines of thought on this, one I stated last week and the other below / above this post:

Sansa wants family, she acknowledge Jon as King and will follow, though she herself wants safety and family over personal rulership.

Bran coming back would be a relief to her, Bran would or should automatically fall into temporary Lordship; but his wanting and needing to stay in the trees and help Jon fight the WW will force her to take that role, and if that shot is Bran in the Weirwoods her upsetting look could be that or something else.

The lords of the other houses proclaimed Jon as King in the North.  So at this point, wouldn't Bran just be the rightful Lord of Winterfell?  The north didn't seem to care that Jon is a bastard, they are following him because they want to.

9 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

Oh.. right. Derp. That reminds me though, Davos is familiar with Dragonstone, wouldn't he have known about the dragonglass?

I get the impression that it isn't just right there on the  beaches or in the gardens - it must be mined from underground.  Therefore, maybe not many people know at all if they aren't currently actively mining it.

Edited July 24, 2017 by FnkyChkn34
Fix typo

[screamin]

1 minute ago, Francie said:

Other than Gendry, who is illegitimate (and Mya Stone in the books), there are no living Baratheons. That's my take as to how the lords are accepting of Cersei. 

That would mean that they either acknowledge Cersei as the possessor of the Iron Throne by right of conquest - and acknowledging the High Sept massacre as a legitimate 'conquest' instead of just cold-blooded murder, and abetting the perpetrator of that murder by helping her stay in power, thus becoming complicit themselves after the fact in the murder...or they just are okay with the throne falling into possession of the last person to sit on it, like everyone was playing Musical Chairs.

Neither of these particularly satisfies me as a motivation for the lords to believe her a legitimate ruler.

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

The lords of the other houses proclaimed Jon as King in the North.  So at this point, wouldn't Bran just be the rightful Lord of Winterfell?  The north didn't seem to care that Jon is a bastard, they are following him because they want to.

True, but it's because he is thought to be Ned's last surviving son, it could cause turmoil with those Lords, unless Bran refuses to go against Jon.  

[FnkyChkn34]

Another comment on Davos - I think we need to remember that he was an illiterate pirate/smuggler.  He has street smarts and great intuition, but he has no book learnin'.  The knowledge of dragonglass and it's potential uses isn't really anything a smuggler would need to know; he'd just know if people were paying a high price for it or not and not necessarily where to mine it or what people use it for after they get it.

[JustCrazy]

12 hours ago, Ireland77 said:

Wasn't that Yara's body hanging from the front of the ship at the end when Theon was floating in the water?

And I don't blame him at all. He was in an unwinnable situation. Yara's throat would have been slit and Euron would have killed Theon had Theon made any type of move to try and save her. 

I thought it was Yara hanging and Ilea draped over the bow.  Glad they're not dead, and it makes sense that they would be the surprise for Cercie.

[SeanC]

10 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

Why does it even matter if Cersei would be anywhere close to being Tommen's legitimate heir? The point is she took the Throne because she could. 

It matters in the sense that it doesn't make sense that people outside of areas that Cersei militarily controls would conside her to be a legitimate ruler.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

It matters in the sense that it doesn't make sense that people outside of areas that Cersei militarily controls would conside her to be a legitimate ruler.

Honestly, not really, because they could just decide that they want to follow her anyway.

[domina89]

2 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Whhhyyyyy would a Jon/Ghost scene not make it in? Especially since they always say the lack of wolves is due to CGI budget issues. Bleh! If they shot it, put it in! I'm sure HBO doesn't mind if the show is an extra two minutes. 

I suspect if they did actually shoot it and it included a CGI Ghost, it might have been cut to so that the scenes of Arya and Nymeria would have a greater impact.

[Couver]

34 minutes ago, Dev F said:

It should be the closest living blood relative, whoever that might be. Even an extremely distant cousin would have a better claim than Cersei, as Cersei has no claim.

Which, as folks have mentioned, isn't a problem if she's ruling simply by dint of her military might and occupation of the capital, but the notion that she as a non-Baratheon has some claim to the throne through her purportedly Baratheon son doesn't track.

The scene between Jamie and Tarly was odd. It played it off like Tarly had a conflict with his duty/honour but as you said Cersei is not the rightful ruler and someone was rigid about rules as Tarly would see it that way as well. Not to mention it seems people do know or suspect Cersei of the Sept explosion. The Bannermen of House Tyrell should be on board with Olenna then considering Cersei wiped out their ruling house. The only way I can buy this conflict is if, as others have said, the lesser houses see a power grab for the Reach now. And Tarly did make that off hand comment that he is aware of how Cersei deals with her enemies. Implying she rules by fear. Making Olenna's advice to Dany all the more poignant.

[jeansheridan]

9 minutes ago, screamin said:

Neither of these particularly satisfies me as a motivation for the lords to believe her a legitimate ruler.

I see the Southern lords as desperate for a strong leader right now. The Tyrells are gone, Dorne has had a palace uprising, leaders are being assassinated left and right, two young kings dead in a matter of years, all the Baratheon brothers dead, Winter has arrived and so has Dany.  They need an experienced, battle hardened leader with money and an army.  Sadly for them, Cersei and Jaime are it. And Jaime is wise in looking for military talent. Oleanna doesn't even have a Jaime type by her side to show military competence. And I realize I am giving Jaime a lot of credit but last season showed him growing as a military leader/diplomat. Not enough but some. Jaime is becoming the man he needs to be.

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Honestly, not really, because they could just decide that they want to follow her anyway.

But this episode features Jaime telling Tarly that he swore an oath to the Crown.  Tarly's response to that should have been to point out that Cersei isn't the rightful queen, so he owes no allegiance to her at all.

[JustCrazy]

12 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Jon once again making MAJOR decisions in the hall on the fly, without running it by his sis first. He did ask for her advice on Tyrion so that's a step forward I guess. Sansa looked totally shocked about him leaving though.

Also DAMN Jon needs to take those fool bannermen up to the Wall and point. Or ask Ed to send him some wights. 

Loved "A Targaryen can't be trusted!" then ZOOOOOOM in to Jon's face. LOLOLOL.

Jon's decision making mirrors Ned's.  My daughter thinks Jon is going to become the Knight King.

[Chris24601]

My big takeaway from the episode? Dany is totally going to go Mad Queen before this all ends. As other's have pointed out the Dany/Varys scene was totally about setting up a situation where Varys is going to have to turn on Dany due to her actions and the vengeful Lady of Thorns outright said the nobles are sheep and Dany is a dragon and should behave like one (and what have we seen dragons do to sheep over the seasons?).

Then throw in her take away from the descriptions of Jon Snow and of the danger from the North being that he needs to come to her and 'bend the knee' (i.e. make his fight to save the world subservient to her desires for the throne) and its clear that, for all the might her dragons and armies give her, Dany isn't some visionary who senses the bigger picture; she's a girl convinced of her own destiny to rule who sees Jon as not an ally and equal against the supernatural forces of darkness that are coming, but another lackey with an army for her to spend in her war of conquest.

So I'm pretty sure that if Jon and Dany hit it off when they meet its only going to be for contrast when they end up on opposing sides because she's going to end up as big a threat in her own way as the Night King.

* * *

Another takeaway is that based on what someone commented on above about how Allena and her daughter were the ones taken and that for Cersei a fitting punishment for Myrcella's murder would be for Allena to watch her own daughter die is that... that's pretty similar to what the Mad King did with Brandon and Rickard and that Jaime was there to see THAT too. Its not at all subtle but they're all but setting the stage for Jaime to kill Cersei for the same reasons he killed the Mad King.

* * *

As much as anything, I feel like the dragon-killing crossbow will be less about what Cersei is specifically able to do, but that the dragons are not an 'automatic win' against everything... particularly when you've got the Jon/Davos conversation about wights being vulnerable to fire and how dragons would make a great weapon against them. I think the ballista is foreshadowing that beating the Night King will NOT be as easy as getting the three dragons and firebombing the White Walkers from the air.

* * *

Final takeaway, if Dany ends up going Mad Queen and has to be put down, I think Jon choking out LF for even hinting at feelings for Sansa along with Jon trusting Sansa to run the kingdom in his absence are part of setting up a possible endgame once Jon is revealed to be her cousin and rightful heir to the Iron Throne (particularly if his NOT being Ned's son undermines his rule in the North). Jon and Sansa have long been on parallel tracks and the contrast of Jon not really wanting to be king and Sansa not really wanting to rule on her own (the latter implied by her really NOT wanting Jon to leave) are keeping that parallel in play.

The fact that Jon basically choked out LF the same way Ned did (after LF implied Cat would be safest in a brothel) like you'd see a protective boyfriend do to the school perv when he mentioned romantic feelings for Sansa is yet another Ned/Cat 2.0 element. Its not a good option... but it could very well end up being the best of a list of very bad ones; something the showrunners even referenced in their after the show commentary about Jon's story last night.

[Francie]

35 minutes ago, Haleth said:

They would have to trace back the lineage for several generations to find his closest living relative... 

His closest relative traced through his father.

 

Quote

Closest  living blood relative to the Baratheon line, not to Tommen. Again, the notion that the right to rule somehow travels up the line from son to mother makes no sense at all.

 

I do get what you're try to say. Here's my last attempt to explain what I'm trying to explain. You're all doing what my con law professor would call "fighting the hypo."

The Baratheon line is extinguished.  It's gone. Root and stem. They're all gone. There are no distant cousins.  There are no living distant cousins of distant cousins.  There are no living distant cousins of distant cousins of distant cousins. There is nobody identifiable alive who has Baratheon blood. In that case, to whom does the throne go? 

You can get a maester who traces back the generations many many generations, and comes up with the name.  No matter who that is,  if they're going back six to eight generations are more, it's going to sound like it's out of left field. So, the lords aren't fighting that it's Cersei. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Francie

[Eyes High]

2 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Another takeaway is that based on what someone commented on above about how Allena and her daughter were the ones taken and that for Cersei a fitting punishment for Myrcella's murder would be for Allena to watch her own daughter die is that... that's pretty similar to what the Mad King did with Brandon and Rickard and that Jaime was there to see THAT too. Its not at all subtle but they're all but setting the stage for Jaime to kill Cersei for the same reasons he killed the Mad King.

I doubt Jaime will be too fussed about Cersei murdering the woman who poisoned the daughter who died in his arms, even by cruel execution methods.

[FemmyV]

4 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Honestly, not really, because they could just decide that they want to follow her anyway.

The remaining leading families' meek acceptance of Cersei is taking me out of the story, so to speak. What she has done — that the public knows about — is far worse than anything the mad king did, and look at what resulted: Robert's Rebellion.  IRL, someone like Cersei would have been given the Bonaparte treatment by now and KL would be well under siege. Also, Olenna would have been expected to communicate to her vassals, her change of alliance — shit, she would have done well to command the Tarlys lay siege, themselves, instead of licking Jamie's boots.

The Vale is all at Winterfell, but the Freys are all dead and six young boys aren't going to take out the remnants of the Tully army. They, too, would have found someone to pay the rent by now and go after Cersei, or at least support Jon.

[screamin]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

But this episode features Jaime telling Tarly that he swore an oath to the Crown.  Tarly's response to that should have been to point out that Cersei isn't the rightful queen, so he owes no allegiance to her at all.

The show implies that Tarly at least is partly responding to the bribe of getting Warden of the West title and maybe Highgarden itself if he pledges fealty to Cersei, as well as xenophobia toward those raping, pillaging Dothraki (so much worse than our own raping, pillaging armies, don't you know.) But even that doesn't make sense on closer examination. If he stays faithful to Olenna, he's likely to get Highgarden anyway, since she's not likely to live long, seems to have no other heirs, and he's her most powerful bannerman, AND he gets to keep his honor intact as well, instead of becoming a turncoat.

And if he's so horrified at the raping, pillaging furriners...why does he want to immediately make himself their official enemy and put a target on his own lands for them to attack? Currently, they just want Cersei and her territory - if he lets them attack her, they'll be weakened if he needs to face them afterwards.

[Chris24601]

4 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I doubt Jaime will be too fussed about Cersei murdering the woman who poisoned the daughter who died in his arms, even by cruel execution methods.

I think its going to be more about the parallels though... Mad King wanted to wildfire the city, Cersei wildfire'd the Sept and a whole bunch of people. Mad King murdered children and their parents in front of each other and Cersei will likely do the same. Jaime doesn't have to feel particularly conflicted about any one incident, its the growing pattern that I think will ultimately drive him to murder Cersei in the end (but with his luck, probably too late because Dany will have decided to go all Harrenhal on the Red Keep and gets word of Cersei's removal too late.

[Gertrude]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

It's actually one of the more persistent weaknesses in the show's writing: the writers are great at coming up with compelling character moments, but not as good at establishing coherent character arcs.

A-fucking-men.

[CrashTextDummie]

Arya nearly brought tears to my eyes. Twice. Hot Pie is such an anomaly on this show, a pure, kind-hearted person who leads a good life unmarred by the kind of tragedy that every other pure, kind-hearted character has been met with. So his presence alone in the reunion scene already gave it the rarest of uplifting, warms-the-heart feeling. And then MW's reaction to the news and (for the first time in how long in Arya's storyline?) the Stark theme swelling up, a gorgeous, less depressing version of it. And then she turned her horse around and the scene was cemented as possibly my favorite in the entire series so far. Finally, closure to an incredibly dark, incredibly long chapter in the life of Arya Stark. So, so well done. The Nymeria reunion was simply icing on the pie, if no less emotionally satisfying.