S13.E09: Week 9: Overnight Dates

[catrice2]

1 hour ago, comosedice said:

The editing is what it is and we are all victims of it, including you. Interpretation of the editing is what varies. I do not like Bryan based on what I've seen of him and that affects my interpretation. You do not like Peter, which also affects your interpretation of the editing. Nobody here is completely objective no matter how much they think they are. I believe Bryan will be Rachel's choice at the end and that makes me think less of her. I hope Peter is eliminated in the next episode so that I can stop watching. I wish Eric all the best. He seems like an earnest, likeable guy.

I think thats the case as they showed his sister in the hometown visit.

I so totally agree with you about the editing.  I actually don't like or dislike any of the contestants as people. As you say , my interpretation is affected by the fact that I don't like what the franchise represents as a whole so I find fault with everyone who comes on the show.  I find Peter boring, but not offensive. He cannot control how people react to him.  I don't dislike Bryan, I am just not swayed by anything that he says and it may well be sincere.  By and large, people are visual and for this demographic I assume they find Peter more visually appealing.  I'm sure Bryan is appealing to his demo, Dean to all the young girls,  and Eric to others.  On this board I find people to be fairly balanced.  I don't feel like anyone goes overboard defending or exalting anyone, but I also don't feel like constantly pointing out the flaws in one over the other is going to change anyone's opinion. Pointing out when editing made your favorite look bad, but not accepting that editing is affecting the way you view others is not being objective.  I 100% do not believe Will's conversation went the way it was shown, or some of Josiah's, but I don't see people jumping to their defense.  People like who they like.  I liked Alex but the peeing in the pool ruined that for me....and well his face twisted or something when he speaks. 

(According to the stalker Bryan and/or Rachel did clarify it was editing and he was just getting up to go talk to her father- so again, how do we know Peter was not demonstrative while he was at the table or did not try to comfort her when she was crying? I think both are possible and probable) 

That doesn't mean I don't find good and bad about others. Should Peter send himself home, or should Rachel (who is supposedly in control ) send him home?  So then does that mean that both of them lack "integrity?."  Obviously she is playing the game too.  I personally would not leave when there was a another exotic trip on the horizon....no way, and if she has been as obvious with her preference as what is given to us as viewers, I would have started playing for second too.  Let us not forget that contestants are not paid and lose money to be here.....it is in their best interest to position themselves for some type of post show benefits.  Now that I understand the financial aspect,  although I wouldn't do it, I can understand why they would. 

For me, I never thought highly of Rachel as compared to anyone else because a) I don't know her, b) I had no other lead-especially female- to compare her to, and c) she agreed to come on the show (and professing to actually be attracted to Nick was a red flag) when clearly she did not need this show financally or otherwise. I am also amazed that according to my info on social media, etc. she seems to have embraced all of the "show relationships" as the ones most important in her life. She has inhaled the Kool aid and is going to play the good little company employee. 

Editing can be blamed for a lot of what  is said, but there is no denying the watch gate or telling Dean she was falling in love and then sending him home.  When I add that to her "going along" with Lee, Blake, Waboom and a couple of other things is what made me side eye her even more than just for being the lead. Even watch gate was different than how the released clip was shown The comments about being "ballsy" were not even related to the watch. 

Rachel also strikes me as someone who probably is somewhat controlling and a little immature and insecure.  As long as you are telling her what she wants to hear she is fine, but it changes when she is not getting what she wants out of a situation.  At this point, now that she and her chosen one are not getting a great edit her focus (especially after this last episode) in her interviews and after the show is going to be to sell this " I was right" narrative because she doesn't want to have everyone say that the signs were there and she ignored them.  Rachel is all about not "looking like a fool" and she is realizing that is exactly what people are going to think.  It seems to be all about her showing that she can make this work for her.  ABC is in a panic right now because the last season did not go the way they wanted.  Right now they are going to edit, trash, etc. to try to rally the "Nation" behind their first interracial couple, even if it makes the other guys look bad.

Contrary to the stated reason they knew the choice would  not be popular (whether it is Bryan or Peter -due to his resistance) and so that is why they had her announce she was engaged.  They needed to try to get people excited for her so that their After the Rose show is not the reported train wreck it was last time.  In no way will they let another couple come out and talk about the "difficulties" of their relationship.  For ABC and their first interracial couple to sell how inclusive they are and how AWESOME they are for bringing this couple together, nothing less than total gushing will be allowed. 

48 minutes ago, HeyThere83 said:

I get the impression listening to Peter talk that he has been given advice in the past to be very direct, clear, etc. I sort of cringed a few times last night even though he didn't really say anything bad/wrong. I just think in general people aren't used to that approach.  It's interesting because not doing so actually tends to lead to more problems, misunderstandings, down the road.

Counseling will do that to you. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

4 hours ago, Siggystardust said:

Did you all catch when Bryan said he's his mom's only child. That seemed strange to me. Usually someone would say, I'm the only child. It seems an odd way to phrase it unless his dad has other children outside the marriage. I mean his parents been married for 40 years according to him.

My parents have been married for 36 and I still have a half-sibling who was born before this marriage.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[1992austenlover]

2 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

YMMV, I do think the family seemed a little intense and harsh with Bryan. I wondered if it's the case of being the last.  It's like the theory when you were in school and had to make presentations, people believed going first or one of the first was best because the teacher was a little more generous. But by the last ones, because you had seen everyone else and there was a standard to compare it to, they got harsher. So it was like Peter was first so they were a bit nicer in their approach but by the time Bryan came, the questions got harder and the concerns more intense. 

Honestly, I think that the reason why they were harsher on Brian is because I get the sense that Brian's personality is just very different to what they are used to dealing with and is therefore very hard for them to understand. It was interesting seeing the family interact with Peter in comparison; though Peter was very upfront about the fact that he was hesitant about even getting engaged to Rachel at the end of the process, it was almost as if the family respected him for his thought-process given that his cautiousness in the situation clearly made sense to them in a logical way. Brian has always been an enigma to me because I never understood how he was able to just go up to Rachel on that first night, make-out with her and basically claim her for his own without actually having had a genuinely meaningful conversation with her. Honestly, my first impression of Brian pretty much mirrored that of Rachel and Rachel's sister: he made it very easy in the beginning to label him as a "douchebag" and upon first impression, it was hard to believe that he was being sincere because, for better or worse, he does comes across as a little starry-eyed on top of being a bit of a smooth-talker. But I guess I've become so used to Brian over the weeks that I've been able to look past those initial accusations and, at the very least, appreciate the way that he treats Rachel. I think that Rachel is a great catch and so she deserves a guy who is passionate about her and is not afraid to show her how he feels and Bryan definitely fulfills that role. That being said, I totally understand the family's reaction to Bryan because I had the same reaction when he first popped up on screen. People are naturally afraid of things that they don't understand which is probably why Bryan initially scared them. 

[Chick2Chic]

15 minutes ago, 1992austenlover said:

That being said, I totally understand the family's reaction to Bryan because I had the same reaction when he first popped up on screen. People are naturally afraid of things that they don't understand which is probably why Bryan initially scared them. 

While I get your overall point, I don't think that the family felt any fear towards Bryan. I think they were troubled by his responses and that uneasiness continued on the more he spoke.

Overall, I got the impression Rachel's family was concerned that he wasn't genuine overall but especially about his feelings for Rachel because what he was saying to them wasn't clicking as legit to them.  I don't think this situation was at all a "fear of the unknown" but more along the lines of "is this guy genuine or full of shit?"

Edited July 25, 2017 by Chick2Chic
adding more

[1992austenlover]

Just now, Chick2Chic said:

While I get your overall point, I don't think that the family felt any fear towards Bryan. I think they were troubled by his responses and that uneasiness continued on the more he spoke. Overall, I got the impression they were concerned that he wasn't genuine overall but especially about his feelings for Rachel. 

I think that the feeling of uneasiness you're speaking of is my equivalent definition of fear. Either way, they were scared and concerned about Bryan's character and I argue that the reason why they were concerned was because they had troubles reading/understanding him. 

[catrice2]

18 minutes ago, LilJen said:

Oh yes, this will DEFINITELY be the storyline. Over and over we'll be told how he learned he needed to let his guard down.

Exactly. She should be the one proposing. *I think she wants a no-risk win here.* Thus the forcing an "I love you/am falling in love with you" from every guy and forcing the guys to say they'll get engaged. Heaven forbid one of them should turn down her proposal.

You said it better than I did. The rest of the world thinks "engagement" = "we WILL get married." She thinks "engagement" = I don't know, seriously dating? Committed dating? I have no clue. 

But how does that make him any different than Rachel who said repeatedly that she did not believe it in it  happening so soon during Nick's season and was skeptical that it could  (even going into her season) but then inked the contract..when she was supposedly so heartbroken over Nick?  Why do we have different standards for different people? Why is she more believable than anybody else?  She did the exact same thing, including not admitting to "falling in love," (not IN love) with him until Fantasy Suites?   

Again, Rachel has the power..are we saying she is smart enough to realize that Bryan is being genuine, but too stupid to realize that Peter is not into/physically attracted to her and send him home? I agree up thread...I am way more concerned about Eric making it to final 3 and I see zero chemistry between them.  He is not exactly all over her either, and she initiates most of the contact...in a good friend type of way.....'bring it in?"   If we are comparing physical response, in now way do I think Peter's is as great as Bryan's, but I don't think it is totally missing.  Other than Bryan I have not really felt that any of the guys were that physically into her....and she remarked upon that herself. I would imagine that is part of what made Bryan a front runner. 

The only personality that I see from her final 4 is with Eric. I don't think any of they guys that were shown portrayed real personalities except maybe Demario. Josiah, Kenny and others all seemed to be playing to the camera. 

Again, Rachel is all about defending herself and a few others.  Apparently she is saying the conversation was edited and that is not what she said to Peter. Any time she is edited as less than making sense, a "clarification" quickly comes. 

[JudyObscure]

  We've had debates on this board between those of us who believe it's possible to fall in love within a few days and those who think that's impossible.  Last night I clearly felt that Rachel's family was of the latter opinion.  Her sister, in particular was downright rude to Bryan when he talked about how he fast he fell for Rachel.  The sister seemed angry and Bryan seemed taken aback that something he thought she would find romantic, she clearly disliked him for.

I really didn't understand Rachel or her family's dislike for Bryan for being "charming."

I especially didn't get their concern over Eric "never being in love before."  How many times did someone say that about Eric?  Would they have preferred he had been a player with a few children scattered around by women  with whom he had "been in love?"

At this point I'm even more concerned for Eric getting hurt than many of us were for Dean.  I think Eric has told Rachel who he is with his several comments that he feels safe with her, once he even asked if she would take care of him and there's obvious enjoyment when he's following her lead.  Like many men who didn't get everything they needed from their mothers, I think he would be happiest with a very maternal woman, the sort who really enjoys being needed and "taking care," of her husband and Eric would be a sweet adoring husband for that sort of woman.  Unfortunately for Eric I don't think Rachel is exactly that type. 

[Koalagirl]

4 hours ago, TomGirl said:

I thought that was pure editing, and rather clumsy editing at that.

He instagrammed that the reason he left the room was to go speak with Rachel's father off camera.  The editing made it look like he didn't want to answer the question.

3 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Yeah he said it multiple times during the HTD and I noticed it then too. I have read online that some are positive he has a brother but as you said his parents have been married for 40 years. So I do wonder if it's a case of his dad had another child out of wedlock or maybe there was an affair situation. Who knows. But it's pretty clear in my opinion that he's only his mother's only child and not his dad's. 

 

Apparently that was his cousin, not a sister. 

 

Yes, which is why I said the editing makes all see things differently. 

YMMV, I do think the family seemed a little intense and harsh with Bryan. I wondered if it's the case of being the last.  It's like the theory when you were in school and had to make presentations, people believed going first or one of the first was best because the teacher was a little more generous. But by the last ones, because you had seen everyone else and there was a standard to compare it to, they got harsher. So it was like Peter was first so they were a bit nicer in their approach but by the time Bryan came, the questions got harder and the concerns more intense. 

Bryan's visit wasn't necessarily last.   A lot of times they edit to show the visits out of order.

[Chick2Chic]

6 minutes ago, 1992austenlover said:

10 minutes ago, Chick2Chic said:

While I get your overall point, I don't think that the family felt any fear towards Bryan. I think they were troubled by his responses and that uneasiness continued on the more he spoke. Overall, I got the impression they were concerned that he wasn't genuine overall but especially about his feelings for Rachel. 

I think that the feeling of uneasiness you're speaking of is my equivalent definition of fear. Either way, they were scared and concerned about Bryan's character and I argue that the reason why they were concerned was because they had troubles reading/understanding him.

It could be what you call fear but it's not what I would call fear. I don't think they saw him as a threat or dangerous, which is what "fear" says to me. I think it was "is this guy for real cause he seems to be spewing unbelievable BS?" I got unease and possibly disdain. I don't think it wasn't that they didn't understand him but rather they got him and they thought his remarks were insincere. 

Guess we'll have to disagree cause that was a room full of educated and straight shooting folks who made their opinions known easily so I don't think on any level did they fear or not understand Bryan.  I think they got him but wanted to be sure about whether or not he was sincere, which is why they were asking him to clarify his responses when his usual platitudes didn't work.  

[truthaboutluv]

Just now, Koalagirl said:

Bryan's visit wasn't necessarily last.   A lot of times they edit to show the visits out of order.

Based on spoilers and I think Rachel confirmed it in an interview, it was last. They aired the meetings with her family in the order it occurred. 

[dleighg]

Editing or not, her family sure seemed to be giving Bryan the 4th degree. And honestly, smooth or not, he doesn't really have the answers to "what is the there- there..... what is there other than "from the start I was so close to her"

[judie]

I think Rachel's family just liked Peter more than Bryan and it didn't have that much to do with the order in which they met the guys. While Bryan tries too hard to impress and say the perfect thing, Peter is more free and open about his feelings (and loves to discuss them in detail). I think after meeting Peter, who I'd say is easily is more logical about the process and what will come after, Bryan's fairytale promises and protestations that he basically fell in love with Rachel at first sight smacked of insincerity. It all smoothed over in the end so I didn't feel too bad for Bryan (not that I'm much inclined to sympathize with him in the first place, but yeah).

[Koalagirl]

Just now, dleighg said:

Editing or not, her family sure seemed to be giving Bryan the 4th degree. And honestly, smooth or not, he doesn't really have the answers to "what is the there- there..... what is there other than "from the start I was so close to her"

I totally agree with you.  I think they believed him to be disingenuous.  They would have questioned that way regardless of whether they met him first, second or third.  These are not stupid people and if he thought he could snow them he was sadly misinformed.

[Alapaki]

17 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

  We've had debates on this board between those of us who believe it's possible to fall in love within a few days and those who think that's impossible.  Last night I clearly felt that Rachel's family was of the latter opinion.  Her sister, in particular was downright rude to Bryan when he talked about how he fast he fell for Rachel.  The sister seemed angry and Bryan seemed taken aback that something he thought she would find romantic, she clearly disliked him for.

I really didn't understand Rachel or her family's dislike for Bryan for being "charming."

I especially didn't get their concern over Eric "never being in love before."  How many times did someone say that about Eric?  Would they have preferred he had been a player with a few children scattered around by women  with whom he had "been in love?"

Re: Bryan, I think they were using "charming" as a euphemism for a bundle of adjectives that all amount to "full of shit".  I've had co-workers who walk around telling everyone how "brilliant" they are.  It's meant to be ingratiating but comes across as completely inauthentic and phony because, we can't all be that smart.

Re: Eric and "never been in love", it seems that by HTD they've reduced each finalist to one specific description/characteristic.  So Bryan's "too good to be true"; Peter's "too reserved"; and Eric "has never been in love".

[TheFinalRose]

15 minutes ago, Koalagirl said:

Editing or not, her family sure seemed to be giving Bryan the 4th degree

 I call producer manipulation on the Bryan date. I thought that someone put a bug in her mom's ear to push the suffocating mother conversation; it didn't seem to come up organically from Bryan's comments.

[1992austenlover]

Just now, Chick2Chic said:

It could be what you call fear but it's not what I would call fear. I don't think they saw him as a threat or dangerous, which is what "fear" says to me. I think it was "is this guy for real cause he seems to be spewing unbelievable BS?" I got unease and possibly disdain. I don't think it wasn't that they didn't understand him but rather they got him and they thought his remarks were insincere. 

Guess we'll have to disagree cause that was a room full of educated and straight shooting folks who made their opinions known easily so I don't think on any level did they fear or not understand Bryan.  I think they got him but wanted to be sure about whether or not he was sincere, which is why they were asking him to clarify his responses when his usual platitudes didn't work.  

I never said he was dangerous or a threat...I really think that you took my definition of fear a little too literally. What I meant by 'fear' is simply that they were clearly uneasy and critical of him which, I would imagine, came from a place of concern for Rachel (and wanting to make sure that this guy was genuine in order to protect her from future heartbreak). I get where you're coming from but I don't believe that fearing the unknown and questioning someone's sincerity have to be two mutually exclusive ideas, especially when there's a potential proposal in sight. But then again, I can tell that you're coming from the line of thinking that Bryan is definitely insincere which I don't necessarily know to be true or not. What I gathered from the interaction was that the family was confused by Bryan's smooth-talking ways and so, I agree, they questioned him in order to try to break down those platitudes and bring him back down to earth (ie a place that they understand). But it was clear from Rachel's mother's reaction at the end of the visit that she didn't concretely believe that Bryan was insincere: in fact, I think she even said that he appeared to be honest and that she trusted Rachel's judgement. 

[Chick2Chic]

32 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I really didn't understand Rachel or her family's dislike for Bryan for being "charming."

 

"Charming" is relative. Maybe they saw "smarmy" or "fake" and not charm from Bryan and thought "charming" was a cordial way to describe his lines. Just throwing that out there. 

6 minutes ago, 1992austenlover said:

But it was clear from Rachel's mother's reaction at the end of the visit that she didn't concretely believe that Bryan was insincere: in fact, I think she even said that he appeared to be honest and that she trusted Rachel's judgement. 

I got more of a "girl, I guess... if you're happy then I'm happy for you" vibe from her mother's comments at the end regarding Bryan. Obviously mileage varies.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Chick2Chic
additional comment.

[catrice2]

Can we just talk about how cut the little nephew was?  My gosh he was adorable!!!  

I also agree with the person at the table (was it the sister?)  who stated that Peter's parents engaging after a month is different.....and it is.  Dating exclusively for a month and possibly interacting with each other every date (and not  with 15 to 23 other men) and getting to know each other is different than being together for what 72 to 80 hours in the presence of a camera in pre- determined locations while the other person's attention is divided.   Therefore I don't see Peter's parent's situation as a reason why Peter should be more accepting of this process moving so quickly. 

My husband told me on our 3rd date that he he wanted to marry me...he didn't propose or say he was in love with me,  but he told me he wanted us to move toward marriage.    I almost stop seeing him right then  because the skepticism was real.  He could be Bryan sometimes, always saying the right words at the right time....and he still does that.  Half of the time I STILL don't believe him.    We didn't marry for another 5 years, but it was a committed relationship.  But then again the "show"  of being engaged/married never meant that much to me.  I was not the girl that dreamed of the white dress and big to do..with engagement parties, etc.  Not knocking those that do, it just wasn't that important to me. I guess that is another reason this show doesn't grab me.  I am generally a very private person.  I would not want to have to give interviews about whether or not I slept with someone in the fantasy suite and have my family, friends and co workers privy to that information. 

Thank God Rachel decided not to bring church into this mess. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by catrice2

[1992austenlover]

8 minutes ago, Chick2Chic said:

I got more of a "girl, I guess... if you're happy then I'm happy for you" vibe from her mother's comments at the end regarding Bryan. Obviously mileage varies.

That's fair...I mean, I'm sure that she was still a bit wary of Bryan by the end of the conversation.  However, I'd like to think that a strong, educated, straight-shooter of a mother would be a little more protective of her daughter if she genuinely believed in her heart-of-hearts that her potential son-in-law was completely insincere. I think that it's easier to imagine that-- though she has her concerns about Bryan--overall, Rachel's mother was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because she saw some form of sincerity about him and she trusted Rachel's judgment. But do I think that Rachel's mother loved Bryan the most? Probably not. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

34 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

Re: Bryan, I think they were using "charming" as a euphemism for a bundle of adjectives that all amount to "full of shit".  I've had co-workers who walk around telling everyone how "brilliant" they are.  It's meant to be ingratiating but comes across as completely inauthentic and phony because, we can't all be that smart.

Re: Eric and "never been in love", it seems that by HTD they've reduced each finalist to one specific description/characteristic.  So Bryan's "too good to be true"; Peter's "too reserved"; and Eric "has never been in love".

I agree, it's a redflag thing.  People don't automatically hate someone BECAUSE they're charming.  You meet someone and the way they act makes you get your back up like - wait a minute, I remember this feeling.  I'm being manipulated by this person. This person isn't telling the truth.  It's skepticism, not dislike, and some would argue that it's healthy or even protective.  It's like the famous book, "The Gift of Fear".  The Gift of Fear has a main thesis and that is for people to trust their gut more, to trust their instincts.  When you feel weird about a person, look into that and trust that more, instead of simply using direct logic like: "This person is simply charming, and there is nothing more to it."

Edited July 25, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[useryikes]

2 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Because when it comes down to it, this whole franchise is one ick-fest and it's been that way almost from the beginning. It's also been around long enough at this point for anyone signing up to know what they are agreeing to.

Too true - an yet the viewers take it sooo seriously.

[catrice2]

7 minutes ago, useryikes said:

Too true - an yet the viewers take it sooo seriously.

Yep...and the main ones on social media saying this  is fake and disgusting are the same ones out there "defending" their favorites and trashing other contestants on social media.   It's crazy.  I still maintain that people think they know what they are signing up for, but reality is different.  I doubt anyone expects to get death threats from something they said on a reality show.  No one signs up for that. 

[TomGirl]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

At this point I'm even more concerned for Eric getting hurt than many of us were for Dean.  I think Eric has told Rachel who he is with his several comments that he feels safe with her, once he even asked if she would take care of him and there's obvious enjoyment when he's following her lead.

Ok, I'm being very cynical here, and of course I could be entirely wrong, but my guess is that Rachel and Eric have had an honest conversation in which she's told him she's NOT going to choose him, but wants to take him as far as possible.  What does a Eric get out of this?  Lots of positive exposure and adoring fans, exotic travel, and fun, easy times with his BFF Rachel.  And what does Rachel get?  Fun, easy times with her BFF and, probably most important, a way to avoid being known as the black Bachelorette who didn't like any of the black guys.

[dleighg]

Rachel: I can't believe I'm spending the next two weeks here in Spain ......

and all I have is this little roll-along bag!  You're not fooling anyone!

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Koalagirl said:

He instagrammed that the reason he left the room was to go speak with Rachel's father off camera.  The editing made it look like he didn't want to answer the question.

Whether he left the room to go speak with Rachel's father (was he hiding in the den or something?) or whether he had just offered to  let the dog out, it still doesn't  explain why he didn't answer the uncle's question first. It would only have taken a second. If he had already answered the question and they chose not to show it, then we are seriously getting a false idea that Bryan couldn't think of a single thing about Rachel that he particularly likes (or whatever the exact question was.)

You know if we  can't discuss the show at face value,  then why bother to talk about it at all?  If we have to consider everything on the show as possibly just editing, then where do we draw the line? Was there a moment when the producer came in and had the men draw straws to see who got the watch date?  When we saw Rachel say goodbye to Eric in her pajamas, had in just stopped over in the morning to see if she wanted to go swimming?  When Peter said to Bryan, "I don't even like sitting on the couch with you."  Had the sentence really begun with, "I had one date's father dislike me so much he said I don't even like sitting on the couch with you." 

I quit talking about Big Brother because every point was responded with "That was just editing," or, "If you watched the live feeds you would know how wrong you are."  Now with the Bachelors going to Instagram or twitter to say "That's not what really happened," there's even less point in trying to follow along with the show. 

[call me ishmael]

4 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Yeah he said it multiple times during the HTD and I noticed it then too. I have read online that some are positive he has a brother but as you said his parents have been married for 40 years. So I do wonder if it's a case of his dad had another child out of wedlock or maybe there was an affair situation. Who knows. But it's pretty clear in my opinion that he's only his mother's only child and not his dad's. 

 

Or maybe he thinks it was an immaculate conception.  

[comosedice]

1 hour ago, 1992austenlover said:

I think that the feeling of uneasiness you're speaking of is my equivalent definition of fear. Either way, they were scared and concerned about Bryan's character and I argue that the reason why they were concerned was because they had troubles reading/understanding him. 

I am glad you clarified that uneasiness is your equivalent of fear. It isn't mine and I thought the family just found Bryan's spiel rehearsed lines, hence the questions about his sincerity. I understand perfectly why the sister laughed and told him he's only met them for an hour when he told her that he "LOVED" the family. I question what kind of weight the word love has for him. He seems to just throw it out.

[comosedice]

1 hour ago, 1992austenlover said:

That's fair...I mean, I'm sure that she was still a bit wary of Bryan by the end of the conversation.  However, I'd like to think that a strong, educated, straight-shooter of a mother would be a little more protective of her daughter if she genuinely believed in her heart-of-hearts that her potential son-in-law was completely insincere. I think that it's easier to imagine that-- though she has her concerns about Bryan--overall, Rachel's mother was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because she saw some form of sincerity about him and she trusted Rachel's judgment. But do I think that Rachel's mother loved Bryan the most? Probably not. 

Maybe she also knows that her daughter will do whatever she wants. Some parents will let you fall on your face to learn a lesson because telling you 'no' will just make you defensive and want to do it more.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Alapaki said:

Re: Bryan, I think they were using "charming" as a euphemism for a bundle of adjectives that all amount to "full of shit".  I've had co-workers who walk around telling everyone how "brilliant" they are.  It's meant to be ingratiating but comes across as completely inauthentic and phony because, we can't all be that smart.

If I knew someone who called himself brilliant, I wouldn't call him ingratiating or inauthentic ,I would call him a conceited braggart.   If I thought Bryan was insincere, manipulative, too smooth or phony, I would use those words and not charming, which means pleasing and likeable.  I am so confused.

[TomGirl]

4 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

 

1 hour ago, Alapaki said:

Re: Bryan, I think they were using "charming" as a euphemism for a bundle of adjectives that all amount to "full of shit".  I've had co-workers who walk around telling everyone how "brilliant" they are.  It's meant to be ingratiating but comes across as completely inauthentic and phony because, we can't all be that smart.

If I knew someone who called himself brilliant, I wouldn't call him ingratiating or inauthentic ,I would call him a conceited braggart.   If I thought Bryan was insincere, manipulative, too smooth or phony, I would use those words and not charming, which means pleasing and likeable.  I am so confused.

 

I think Alapaki meant he's known people who walked around telling everyone ELSE how brilliant THEY were, thus trying to be ingratiating.

[Alapaki]

10 minutes ago, TomGirl said:

I think Alapaki meant he's known people who walked around telling everyone ELSE how brilliant THEY were, thus trying to be ingratiating.

Yes.  That's what I meant.  

In fact, while trying to convince Rachel's family how awesomely awesome Rachel was, and how he realized that right away, Bryan tried to tell Rachel's family how awesomely awesome they were, and how he'd discerned that already, having just met them.

[Alapaki]

53 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Whether he left the room to go speak with Rachel's father (was he hiding in the den or something?) or whether he had just offered to  let the dog out, it still doesn't  explain why he didn't answer the uncle's question first. It would only have taken a second. If he had already answered the question and they chose not to show it, then we are seriously getting a false idea that Bryan couldn't think of a single thing about Rachel that he particularly likes (or whatever the exact question was.)

You know if we  can't discuss the show at face value,  then why bother to talk about it at all?  If we have to consider everything on the show as possibly just editing, then where do we draw the line?

Agree completely.  

And the question wasn't even a tough one.  It was a soft-ball.  It was, iirc, what qualities does Rachel bring in out in you (i.e., in Bryan)?  That's just teed up for him to give the canned "she makes me a better man; she's shown me how to love authentically; she's taught me to live in the moment", or some such bullshit that wouldn't have been any more bullshitty than anything else he'd said.  The fact that he didn't have an answer to that suggests that he's dealing with the relationship on a completely superficial level.  

Of course it could be editing.  (fwiw, I read somewhere that Rachel's Dad refused to go on camera, but did spend time with each guy in Dallas).  

But like you say, we can only evaluate and snark on the show we're shown.  

29 minutes ago, comosedice said:

Maybe she also knows that her daughter will do whatever she wants. Some parents will let you fall on your face to learn a lesson because telling you 'no' will just make you defensive and want to do it more.

You know, from Mom at the end I got a sense of "Ah, screw it.  She isn't marrying any of these guys anyway."  And, in the end, she really only gave her "blessing" to Rachel "continuing along the journey" or some Fleiss-approved-but-meaningless phrase.  

[TomGirl]

17 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

29 minutes ago, TomGirl said:

I think Alapaki meant he's known people who walked around telling everyone ELSE how brilliant THEY were, thus trying to be ingratiating.

Yes.  That's what I meant.  

In fact, while trying to convince Rachel's family how awesomely awesome Rachel was, and how he realized that right away, Bryan tried to tell Rachel's family how awesomely awesome they were, and how he'd discerned that already, having just met them.

And THAT went over like a lead balloon, didn't it?

[Chick2Chic]

Reading Rachel's comments on her new People Mag blog, it seems like the issue with Bryan was that her family didn't take too kindly to his "sloppy seconds" comment on Ellen and that they had done some online snooping of him that made them have doubts about him and his sincerity. Rachel also stated the things they found weren't relevant nor a concern to her, but they did bother her family which is why they were critical from jump with him.

[SnapeCharmer]

7 minutes ago, Chick2Chic said:

Reading Rachel's comments on her new People Mag blog, it seems like the issue with Bryan was that her family didn't take too kindly to his "sloppy seconds" comment on Ellen and that they had done some online snooping of him that made them have doubts about him and his sincerity. Rachel also stated the things they found weren't relevant nor a concern to her, but they did bother her family which is why they were critical from jump with him.

This is what makes me side-eye her along with the rest. How can you not see what your family and half the world already see so clearly? Unless, you truly don't care, because you're just playing a role and have no intentions to marry this person or any of the guys from this show.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Siggystardust
grammar

[truthaboutluv]

So based on Rachel's People Magazine blog, apparently her family had seen and had feelings about Bryan's "sloppy seconds" comment on the Ellen Show (that date was filmed in real time and aired on the Ellen Show in real time) and googled him, which gave them more feelings. I'm going to guess it's seeing the lawsuit and past reality show appearance thing. 

eta: Ah beat me to it. 

Quote

This is what makes me side-eye her along with the rest. How can you not see what your family and half the world already see so clearly? Unless, you truly don't care, because you're just playing a role and have no intentions on actually marrying this person or anyone of the guys from this show.

She's said in interviews that her fiance told her everything and that she still did Google him after just to make sure and there was nothing she didn't already know. If that is Bryan, then it is possible that she already knew the things they found out or she did ask about it when her family brought it up. Honestly, Rachel's blog comments make it seem even more glaringly clear to me that she probably chose Bryan and I suspect she's just going into defense mode of her fiance. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[scenicbyway]

32 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

  

You know, from Mom at the end I got a sense of "Ah, screw it.  She isn't marrying any of these guys anyway."  And, in the end, she really only gave her "blessing" to Rachel "continuing along the journey" or some Fleiss-approved-but-meaningless phrase.  

Totally agree.  It's fairly clear that none of these guys is a serious contender to actually become her husband.

Eric is in the "friend zone."   Peter is pretty to look at but clearly terrified he might actually have to propose.  And I think Bryan just wants to win, with his personality he could charm anyone.  It sure felt like her mother just was in "whatever" mode.

[catrice2]

I am confused because how would the parents have already viewed sloppy seconds or anything about them? I thought the bios and footage were released after taping was completed? Or did that segment on Ellen air in real time? 

[Chick2Chic]

6 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Or did that segment on Ellen air in real time? 

I remember seeing the clip of the group date on youtube before this season even aired. I think it was a preview / teaser for the show. 

ETA, yep. The clip was uploaded by Ellen show in March. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Chick2Chic
adding more

[catrice2]

By the way,I still think Rachel is pissed that Peter has not fawned all over her when she made it clear she would like him to and she is just pulling him along so that she can dump him in a way that has never been done before as punishment.  I also think he is also going to do or say something that will not have Bachelor Nation ready for him to be the next Bachelor.   Peter strikes me as the type that could be jealous and controlling. 

God, what a crappy group of men!  

[Fable]

Bryan’s date may have seemed awkward and uncomfortable, but what I got out of it was that Rachel may have already clued her family into the fact that he was the one she had set her sites on, so they went harder on him, because the other two guys were really non-factors and all they needed to do was make nice with them. 

And then of course, there is a lot we didn't see, so we saw is what the editors meant for us to see.  

Edited July 25, 2017 by Fable

[Ohwell]

Ok, I'm confused, was Eric the only one who had an overnighter with Rachel, or did I miss something?  I don't remember seeing her the next morning with Peter or Bryan.  

[catrice2]

11 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Ok, I'm confused, was Eric the only one who had an overnighter with Rachel, or did I miss something?  I don't remember seeing her the next morning with Peter or Bryan.  

No, he was the only one.  They did not show the Fantasy date for Peter or Bryan, or Bryan's daytime date. 

 I think she is going to either send Peter home, or they are not going to have both men propose to her.  Otherwise I don't know how they will have time to finish their date, Fantasy Date, Bryan's date and Fantasy date, the Rose Ceremony and the "proposals" and choice. How many hours is the usual final?   My guess?  She sends Peter or Eric home at the rose ceremony.  Whoever is left she does not let the 2nd person propose. They will manufacture some drama between Rachel and Bryan and she sends him away, then has a change of heart and is shown wondering if he will come back to "hear her out."   Somewhere in all that Peter is going to have some type of breakdown where Rachel gets to reject him spectacularly. 

[eyelash]

21 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Fun fact- Weeks ago on a local morning show one of her friends was interviewed (not the two shown, all Black women) and she stated  that she styled Rachel's hair and makeup for the dates at her parent's "house."  Did anyone notice a difference? 

I think the eyelashes were more reasonable, but I am so tired of watching women stroke, readjust and fiddle with their hair extensions.  I think Rachel could use a little volume on the top, and those lengthy extensions just weigh her down.  I also really disliked the outfit she wore with Eric, but there's no denying she is a beautiful woman no matter what.

[Ohwell]

6 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

No, he was the only one.  They did not show the Fantasy date for Peter or Bryan, or Bryan's daytime date. 

 I think she is going to either send Peter home, or they are not going to have both men propose to her.  Otherwise I don't know how they will have time to finish their date, Fantasy Date, Bryan's date and Fantasy date, the Rose Ceremony and the "proposals" and choice. How many hours is the usual final?   My guess?  She sends Peter or Eric home at the rose ceremony.  Whoever is left she does not let the 2nd person propose. They will manufacture some drama between Rachel and Bryan and she sends him away, then has a change of heart and is shown wondering if he will come back to "hear her out."   Somewhere in all that Peter is going to have some type of breakdown where Rachel gets to reject him spectacularly. 

Ok thanks.  I think her date with Peter was finished because they had the wine date earlier, and then didn't they have dinner later?  So what's left are Peter's fantasy date, and Bryan's date and Fantasy date.   I feel silly even typing this. 

[seacliffsal]

So, my perspective is that Bryan has been promoting himself as a "chiropractic physician" and then suddenly, when meeting Rachel's family, there is an actual physician-a surgeon no less...  I think his self-promotion agenda took a hit with a real physician present.  I also think that the matching Swiss watches also let the family know how serious Rachel was about Bryan.  

It seems like Rachel is investing in becoming a 'media personality' and not having an engagement at the end of her season of being the Bachelorette may not necessarily help her 'sell' her image.  There are a lot of comments about how Peter knew what show he was signing up for, etc., etc.; however, I don't think that most contestants think that they'll make it to the end and if he is really serious about his definition of "engagement" then he is probably in quite the quandry about his next steps with Rachel.  It made me laugh that when she was with Bryan, she bought matching expensive watches.  When she was with Peter, she had him buy gifts for her sister and nephew.  No wonder Peter isn't ready to propose.

[Canada]

Another episode that was just painful to watch.  Rachel really likes the sound of her own voice.  Listening to the conversations between her and the sister were just annoying as they both just talked over each other.  It wasn't even a conversation, just two arrogant people talking over each other.

As much as I find Bryan really smarmy and Eric really rambling, I'd take either of them over boring Peter.  I think Peter is one of those pretty people who's spent his entire life just relying on people being attracted to him because of his looks.  He's relied on his looks.  But when he speaks, he's so boring and inarticulate.  He's got no discernable personality.  I really hope he isn't the next Bachelor, because that would just be so painful to watch.  He'd be the most boring Bachelor yet.

[catrice2]

9 minutes ago, Canada said:

Another episode that was just painful to watch.  Rachel really likes the sound of her own voice.  Listening to the conversations between her and the sister were just annoying as they both just talked over each other.  It wasn't even a conversation, just two arrogant people talking over each other.

As much as I find Bryan really smarmy and Eric really rambling, I'd take either of them over boring Peter.  I think Peter is one of those pretty people who's spent his entire life just relying on people being attracted to him because of his looks.  He's relied on his looks.  But when he speaks, he's so boring and inarticulate.  He's got no discernable personality.  I really hope he isn't the next Bachelor, because that would just be so painful to watch.  He'd be the most boring Bachelor yet.

I don't think it really matters who the lead is. They just manufacture drama round them so that the contestants become the story and the lead spits the same lines and follows the same script.   

[catrice2]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Whether he left the room to go speak with Rachel's father (was he hiding in the den or something?) or whether he had just offered to  let the dog out, it still doesn't  explain why he didn't answer the uncle's question first. It would only have taken a second. If he had already answered the question and they chose not to show it, then we are seriously getting a false idea that Bryan couldn't think of a single thing about Rachel that he particularly likes (or whatever the exact question was.)

You know if we  can't discuss the show at face value,  then why bother to talk about it at all?  If we have to consider everything on the show as possibly just editing, then where do we draw the line? Was there a moment when the producer came in and had the men draw straws to see who got the watch date?  When we saw Rachel say goodbye to Eric in her pajamas, had in just stopped over in the morning to see if she wanted to go swimming?  When Peter said to Bryan, "I don't even like sitting on the couch with you."  Had the sentence really begun with, "I had one date's father dislike me so much he said I don't even like sitting on the couch with you." 

I quit talking about Big Brother because every point was responded with "That was just editing," or, "If you watched the live feeds you would know how wrong you are."  Now with the Bachelors going to Instagram or twitter to say "That's not what really happened," there's even less point in trying to follow along with the show. 

I agree with this, and it is the reason I get upset with myself whenever I have an opinion about something.  I already know they are playing with the tape and we are seeing what they want us  to see, so most of what I think or feel is not valid.  Will, Rachel, Bryan and somebody I can't remember have supposedly all gone to some type of social media to "clear up" how conversations were edited, and all of the incidents were hot topics with the fans.  Ironically it is pointless because not everyone follows social media and just like people say, the mistake is the headline and the retraction is in small print.  Nobody remembers or even accepts the "explanations" because in their mind it happened the way they saw it. 

[Canada]

Forgot to add to my post: Rachel's family seems really snobby and uptight.  I couldn't be around any of them for any length of time.