S10.E12: The Doctor Falls

[Mabinogia]

Yeah, I don't really consider Mickey a companion so much as a companion to the companion but Rory? In my mind Rory was a full on companion. he was one of my favorite companions and if I had had to choose between him and Amy I think Rory would have edged her out. He was great and hello, isn't he the Doctors father-in-law? I mean, surely that would have warranted a two second screenshot. It really does bother me that Rory wasn't there. I know he's fictional, but still! That's not right.

[Llywela]

Mickey was part of the show throughout both the Ninth and Tenth Doctors' lifespans, and the Doctor was fond of him - maybe Nine not so much, but Ten certainly was. If Vastra and Jenny were there, Mickey definitely should have been. And I am pretty certain suitable footage could have been found.

[theschnauzers]

6 hours ago, Llywela said:

Mickey was part of the show throughout both the Ninth and Tenth Doctors' lifespans, and the Doctor was fond of him - maybe Nine not so much, but Ten certainly was. If Vastra and Jenny were there, Mickey definitely should have been. And I am pretty certain suitable footage could have been found.

Mickey never received an opening sequence credit, which may be part of the answer. Barrowman eventually did, thus becoming an official Companion, just as Elisabeth Sladen did during at least one of the Tenth Doctor episodes. Arthur Darvill did as well IIRC. His omission doesn't make a lot of sense given the other included pre-Twelve companions, so I'm not sure what the answer is.

Edited July 8, 2017 by theschnauzers

[Llywela]

Mickey travelled in the TARDIS for multiple adventures. That's pretty much the definition of an official companion. Vastra and Jenny, nope. That's the bit that bugs. Ah well. I'm sure someone somewhere has what they think is a good reason for the double exclusion of two actual New Who companions in favour of recurring allies.

[Mabinogia]

I personally don't think Vastra and Jenny should have been there. I don't get what was so great about them and I don't remember them being around all that much. I forgot they were part of the montage so yeah, if they were there Mickey should have been too.

[DJG1122]

Maybe the montage was only the companions that the Dr liked.......(ducks thrown tomatoes and leaves abruptly

[John Potts]

9 hours ago, DJG1122 said:

Maybe the montage was only the companions that the Dr liked

Well, it is traditional to have a strained relationship your in laws!

[whoknowswho]

21 hours ago, Llywela said:

Mickey was part of the show throughout both the Ninth and Tenth Doctors' lifespans, and the Doctor was fond of him - maybe Nine not so much, but Ten certainly was. If Vastra and Jenny were there, Mickey definitely should have been. And I am pretty certain suitable footage could have been found.

Bolded by me. Why not Straxx, too? He was my favorite part about that trio.

They shouldn't have been included, they were never companions. Were they Steven Moffatt's creations? Maybe he only picked the people he liked to pay homage to. No idea why include them but not Rory.

[StrictTime]

I hated the Cybermen's new look-- the nylon gloves and ski masks.  Cheesy and not scary at all.  Some of the side shots of Bill Cyberman were especially bad.

[whoknowswho]

1 hour ago, StrictTime said:

I hated the Cybermen's new look-- the nylon gloves and ski masks.  Cheesy and not scary at all.  Some of the side shots of Bill Cyberman were especially bad.

These are Mondasian Cybermen. I don't know the mythology of them terribly well as they were from Classic Who, but my understanding is that they are a far more primitive form than the regular Cybermen--towards the end of the show they were being upgrading to the far more nasty versions we know from Nu Who.

But I do agree. They looked less than terrifying to me-- more like metal mesh sock puppets than nightmares in silver.

[KirkB]

I think they were going for a half conversion look, patients in bandages combined with metal implants. But rather than primitive, what they ended up doing just looked silly. Most of the full conversion Cybermen the Doctor was fighting later looked better.

[ganesh]

The show was cheesy for essentially since it started. I don't have problem with the modern era of the show giving a bit of homage. And the whole point of the cybermen is that they start out crude and multiply and upgrade fairly quickly. As low-tech as the Mondasians were, they still had a fairly powerful energy beam on the top of their heads that could do some damage.

[benteen]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 3:07 PM, whoknowswho said:

Bolded by me. Why not Straxx, too? He was my favorite part about that trio.

They shouldn't have been included, they were never companions. Were they Steven Moffatt's creations? Maybe he only picked the people he liked to pay homage to. No idea why include them but not Rory.

They were Moffat's creations.  Straxx was my favorite of the group too and I found Vastra and Jenny's additions to the montage confusing.  I would have definitely swapped them out with Mickey and Rory.  If it had been focused exclusively on companions and friends of the 12th Doctor, then that would have been a different story.

[Llywela]

As others have said, this wasn't a 'new look' for the Cybermen, but rather a return to their roots - this is what the Cybermen looked like when they were very first introduced to the show back in the 1960s, complete with the creepy sing-song voices. The original design might have arisen out of technical and budgetary constraints, but I actually prefer them this way to the more usual version. When they are completely metal, it is too easy to think of them as just another type of robot, but the thing about the Mondasian Cybermen is that you can see they were once human, and that really emphasises the body horror of the concept in a way that the full-metal version can't hope to match.

[TwirlyGirly]

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

As others have said, this wasn't a 'new look' for the Cybermen, but rather a return to their roots - this is what the Cybermen looked like when they were very first introduced to the show back in the 1960s, complete with the creepy sing-song voices. The original design might have arisen out of technical and budgetary constraints, but I actually prefer them this way to the more usual version. When they are completely metal, it is too easy to think of them as just another type of robot, but the thing about the Mondasian Cybermen is that you can see they were once human, and that really emphasises the body horror of the concept in a way that the full-metal version can't hope to match.

I have to admit I'm not a big fan of classic Who (I tried - I really did - but I found I never felt immersed in the episodes as I watched like I do with "Modern Who"). When I read about "The Doctor Falls" prior to it being aired, that was when I learned about the Mondasian Cybermen for the first time, so I knew prior to watching their look was different and not as "high tech" as "modern" cybermen.  I was totally creeped out by them when watching "The Doctor Falls." - much more so than the modern version. And you're right - my reaction was based on their "humanness". The scene in the hospital, in which we learn they're all in pain, but are prevented from expressing it by turning off the volume on their speakers - was absolutely horrifying to me. I don't think I'd have had the same reaction if "modern" cybermen had been presented in the same way - I'm sure my brain wouldn't have bought that situation at all. "Mechanical robots in pain? Uh, no."

Edited July 10, 2017 by TwirlyGirly1

[Mabinogia]

Having not really paid attention to the origins of the Cybermen before, and not having watched Classic Who, I did assume they were alien robots so seeing their origins was rather chilling to me. I liked the evolution from bandaged patient slowly to tin can. And having it happen to Bill was especially effective.

[Llywela]

*nods* The Cybermen are always at their most chilling best when the body horror of them is emphasised - over the years, the show hasn't always remembered that, and too often falls into the trap of treating them as just another robot race, which they aren't. They are people. People who have had all humanity stripped out of them, their bodies transformed into cybernetic horror in the name of prolonging their existence. That's why I like the Mondasian Cybermen, and always have, because they are so crude, so close to what they once were, you can't fall into the trap of dismissing them as mere robots. Very fitting that they were used for the Twelfth Doctor's (almost) swansong, seeing as they were the enemy encounter that led to the First Doctor's regeneration (I have quite a big soft spot for The Tenth Planet, which was both the first ever Cyberman story and the last ever First Doctor story).

[rur]

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

*nods* The Cybermen are always at their most chilling best when the body horror of them is emphasised - over the years, the show hasn't always remembered that, and too often falls into the trap of treating them as just another robot race, which they aren't. They are people. 

The sound the Cybermen make when they march is their most terrifying aspect for me; and to know that it's being made by people increases the horror.

[dragonsbite]

On 7/4/2017 at 10:51 AM, KirkB said:

I don't know if Moffat and/or 12 have issues with Mickey and Rory, but is it possible they were not included in the companion montage because there were no scenes of them screaming or saying the Doctor's name in a particularly dramatic way to draw from?

And now I'm gonna hafta watch all the Rory episodes again just to verify whether he ever does that.

[Enigma X]

I am a bit let down that the Doctor was not more angry with the Master for what he's done to Bill.

[benteen]

While it certainly makes sense for the Cybermen to continually upgrade themselves, the one size fits all aspect of the their design has really taken away a lot of their creepiness.  This two-parter really brought it back and it's a shame that we won't likely see it again going forward.

Another aspect of this season that I enjoyed...barely any Daleks.  Outside for a small (but vital) appearance in the season premiere, the show took a break from them this season and that was long overdue.

[Bruinsfan]

On 7/9/2017 at 9:59 PM, benteen said:

They were Moffat's creations.  Straxx was my favorite of the group too and I found Vastra and Jenny's additions to the montage confusing.  I would have definitely swapped them out with Mickey and Rory.  If it had been focused exclusively on companions and friends of the 12th Doctor, then that would have been a different story.

Man, can you imagine the hue and cry if Moffat had left Rose out of the montage?

[Snookums]

Quote

I had to LOL when Missy and the Master were rubbed up together and he looks down and says "is it wrong to..." bwahaha.

I snickered too and yelled "You are literally the only two people in the universe who are RIGHT for each other!" That whole take was great: of course somebody with an ego the size of The Master's/Missy would automatically want to make sweet, dirty love to his/herself! And the death scene was perfect. As an earlier poster said, two scorpions stinging themselves to death.

Missy deliberately turned her back on herself because she knew The Master would shoot her. She couldn't be her old self, take up her old life, the one she loved so, so much, but she knew she couldn't really change, either. The best she could hope for was choosing redemption and then death before she blew it, again. 

And that mutual murder also highlighted The Doctor's creed of "Without hope, without recognition, without reward." The Twelfth Doctor fell never knowing he had saved Missy, his first love, his oldest friend; that his example had actually taken hold, that she went out the type of person he desperately wanted her to achieve. It wasn't for him that she did it, he might never know it happened, but it did.

Poor Bill! At least she got a happy ending, with hope and a cute girlfriend and the ability to return to her old life (and I hope she does, if only to let her foster mom know what she's doing! Bill wouldn't just bail out on the woman who raised her without a word.) And I hope she does go back, not sooner but later. Because life on Earth is as rewarding as you make it.

Okay, query: when Bill and The Doctor are getting ready to fight off the cybermen and he says "this is it, is there anything we need to say," am I correct that Bill basically told him he was her "exception?" Because of the accents I wasn't 100% sure but given the adoration with which Pearl Mackie has gazed at Capaldi during the season (don't blame her one bit) it would make sense, if only as little sop/dig to his vanity, one last elbow nudge to your mate before the end.

ETA:  Okay, so she basically was ragging him one last time, which is great! People say this wasn't a love story but it really was: love between two people who in "regular" terms would never even speak beyond pleasantries, but spotted a missing piece of themselves in each other and made room for it to grow into a friendship that sustained and lifted them to be more. Definitely not sexual love, but deeply romantic.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Snookums

[Florinaldo]

2 hours ago, Snookums said:

ETA:  Okay, so she basically was ragging him one last time, which is great!

Yes, I also think she was written as just toying with him; and it worked, considering the look of bewilderment on the Doctor' face, as if he was wondering how to wiggle his way out of that one.

[jhlipton]

On 7/21/2017 at 6:21 PM, Florinaldo said:

Yes, I also think she was written as just toying with him; and it worked, considering the look of bewilderment on the Doctor' face, as if he was wondering how to wiggle his way out of that one.

Billie was totally ragging on the Doctor. So funny when he thinks she's getting sweet on him, only to pull the rug out from under him.

[SVNBob]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

So funny when he thinks she's getting sweet on him, only to pull the rug out from under him.

And don't forget, he was hearing the whole thing in a Cyber-voice.  So that added a layer of... something.

[rove4]

Finally got around to watching this (and getting the news from SDCC).  Bill only gets this one season?  Whyyyeeeeee??

[Bruinsfan]

Because we can't have nice things? I suppose to give Chibnall free rein to bring his vision to Doctor Who without being encumbered by characters and narratives from his predecessor. In any event, I'm certainly thankful for the great job Pearl Mackie did for her limited tenure.

[starri]

On 7/25/2017 at 9:17 PM, rove4 said:

Whyyyeeeeee??

Probably the same reason the Doctor Who Gods denied us more than one season of Donna.

And I hate to think this, but since I'm betting that they decided pretty early that no matter who they ended of casting, Thirteen was going to be a woman, they probably wanted to avoid having a lesbian companion.  Which is a shame.

[Mabinogia]

Two female leads? Never gonna happen. Pity. I think Pearl and Jodie would have done well together. I also think it could have been kind of fun to see Bill deal with the fact that the great, awesome Doctor is now a hot chick. lol Ah, to flirt or not to flirt? 

[Bruinsfan]

Yeah, having your grandfatherly mentor turn into a smoking hot woman would need some adjusting to. I'd have been much more interested in seeing that story than Clara throwing a hissyfit because her seemingly young not-boyfriend suddenly became older and (allegedly) not as cute anymore.

[Ceindreadh]

On 9/9/2017 at 3:30 PM, Mabinogia said:

Two female leads? Never gonna happen. Pity. I think Pearl and Jodie would have done well together. I also think it could have been kind of fun to see Bill deal with the fact that the great, awesome Doctor is now a hot chick. lol Ah, to flirt or not to flirt? 

Wasn't one of the last things Bill said to the Doctor about him being old and her still being into women...and the Doctor's next regeneration is going to be into a young woman?   Just saying!