A League of Their Own (1992): Women, Baseball, and that Darn Ending...

[Wiendish Fitch]

I'm not a particular fan of this movie, but many people are, and the controversial ending seems to be the most popular talking point. So feel free to discuss how Geena Davis and Tom Hanks are awesome, how Lori Petty was always irritating, and debate whether or not

Spoiler

Dottie dropped the ball on purpose. Not that anyone cares, but I don't think she did. 

 

Oh, and Madonna's in this too. Huh.

[nilyank]

I never thought that she dropped the ball on purpose because it goes against who Dottie is. She loved the game. She loved her sister. It would have been an insult to both if she just let her sister win.

[ruby24]

It amazes me that after all these years there are still so few female sports movies. It's why this and Bend it Like Beckham still have so many passionate fans and have lasted so long, imo. Even though people loved them, it doesn't lead to a trend or anything.

[Browncoat]

I can see the ending both ways.  Dottie loved her sister more than she loved the game, and Kit loved the game more than Dottie loved the game.  The win would mean so much more to Kit than Dottie, and Dottie wanted Kit to be happy and successful, so she dropped the ball on purpose. 

But it's also hard to believe someone as stubborn and competitive as Dottie was would throw the game.

[TigerLynx]

I never thought Dottie dropped the ball on purpose.  I thought she told Kit the truth, Kit wanted it more.  Throughout the movie there was a theme that Dottie was happy with her life, her job, her husband, liked living where she did, etc., and Kit wasn't happy with her life, wanted to do something else, etc.  

I thought Dottie told her grandson to let his younger brother win sometimes because Dottie didn't realize how much she overshadowed Kit, and how jealous and resentful Kit was until they joined the League.  I also got the impression that Kit never went home.  From Kit telling Dottie that she really liked it (whatever town they were in at that point) there, and she might get a job and stay in that town, and Dottie's comments about Kit and her husband always traveling, I don't think Dottie and Kit saw each other much later on in life.

[slf]

Dottie dropped the ball on purpose and it still makes me grit my teeth. Dammit, Dottie. Kit's ego isn't worth it!

I alway saw it as Dottie really did love the game, Jimmy's observation about that was right, it's just that as the oldest Dottie had to go to work, had to help around the farm, probably had to babysit her sister when they wre kids/teens, got married young like women were supposed to, had to help her husband run the business, etc. Basically, she buried her own desires to perform her duty to her family. Kit, being the baby and unmarried, had fewer obligations (had to help around the farm and likely faced pressure to marry, certainly, but still had fewer obligations). But she was also not as classically pretty as her sister, as well liked, as accomplished, so she also had a burning desire to beat Dottie in something, be it baseball or walking fast. Kit wanted to win more but I don't think she loved the game more. She didn't train harder or play smarter to compensate for not being as naturally talented as others; she just threw tantrums any time things didn't go her way. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by slf

[ruby24]

I think Dottie did love the game, even more than she thought she did. She was just trapped by the conventions of the time, that women were supposed to be married and homemakers and there was no real possibility to have a career as a professional athlete, so she just didn't even consider it. And Kit was still a teenager, so her immaturity and selfishness was still thriving, but Dottie was the older, married woman, so she buried her passions, essentially.

But Jimmy was right, she played like she loved it. Her real self came out on the field. I love Tom Hanks in this role so much- his speech to her about quitting is one of the best things ever. I always thought he should have been nominated for supporting actor for this.

Edited May 31, 2017 by ruby24

[tribeca]

Ri know it's not popular but in always related more to Kit then Dottie.   Kit loved playing ball.  Dottie didn't care.   Kit loved it so much and wasn't a bad player her sister overshadowed her in something she loved.  Everyone would always compare Kit to Dottie.   Kit loved her sister, was jealous of her and mad at herself for the way she felt. 

    The one thing no one ever brings up is Dottie left her team in the World Series.  That showed me she not only didn't love the game she didn't love her team either. 

Edited May 31, 2017 by tribeca

[scarynikki12]

I think that having Dottie leave the team for most of the World Series was also key to the moment at home plate.  I think that Kit did want it more in general but Dottie had been absent for six games.  I don't know what the schedules were like in the 40s but a series that goes to seven games these days take a week and traveling took more time back then.  So, as much as a week and half or even two weeks could have passed between Dottie leaving and returning.  She wouldn't have suddenly lost her ability to play or gotten out of shape but not doing anything athletic until Game 7 probably affected her just enough and that, combined with Kit's determination, is why she dropped the ball.  I never thought she did it on purpose.  She did want to win, she was disappointed that they didn't, and then she buried her true feelings about playing until the Hall of Fame induction (and the older actress did a great job showing how happy Dottie was to be back with everyone and how much she missed it).  She loved Kit very much and that helped her put aside her disappointment and be happy for her. 

[Bastet]

I cannot stand Kit.  She's an overgrown baby, who needs to be told to grow the hell up, not coddled.  Boo hoo, her sister is prettier than she is, and a better player than she is.  Welcome to life, Buttercup.  Like Dottie said, she got her on the train, but Kit got herself in the league -- she was good enough to make the team, and she loved playing.  So play the game, and become the best player you can be.  Don't go cry in the damn dugout in the middle of the championship because someone got a hit off you.

I initially thought Dottie purposely dropped the ball, and was enraged -- screw over your whole team for that whiny brat, rather than making up for the fact you'd initially left them in the lurch? But once I watched it again, I decided she just legitimately couldn't hold on.  She's competitive (in some of the deleted scenes/original script, it's clear she's in fact rather ruthless), she's finally admitted to herself how much she loves the game -- I just can't see her throwing away the championship.

I still don't understand the decision to have the Peaches lose, though.  We spend the whole film with them, and then one character splinters off to Racine, and that one character (who is not the main character) and a bunch of people we don't know wins the World Series?  If I didn't hate Kit so much, maybe I'd like the twist on the typical ending.  Especially since the larger point was about the league as a whole, anyway.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Bastet

[kiddo82]

I always thought it was understood that Dottie dropped the ball on purpose and the look in Jimmy's face at the end of game told me he knew it too.  There's actually a brief moment earlier in the film when she gets run over at the plate and manages to hold on.  I don't think she planned throwing the game (she did tell Ellen Sue to throw high fastballs) but in the heat of the moment she just reacted.

[scarynikki12]

5 hours ago, Bastet said:

I still don't understand the decision to have the Peaches lose, though.  We spend the whole film with them, and then one character splinters off to Racine, and that one character (who is not the main character) and a bunch of people we don't know wins the World Series?  

Racine did win the first World Series so I think they didn't want to rewrite that part of history even while centering a movie on the fictional Peaches. Now, why they didn't just put the characters on the Racine team I don't know. 

[slf]

4 hours ago, kiddo82 said:

I always thought it was understood that Dottie dropped the ball on purpose and the look in Jimmy's face at the end of game told me he knew it too.  There's actually a brief moment earlier in the film when she gets run over at the plate and manages to hold on.  I don't think she planned throwing the game (she did tell Ellen Sue to throw high fastballs) but in the heat of the moment she just reacted.

Didn't Penny Marshall come out and confirm that, as written, Dottie intentionally dropped the ball? I could swear she did. In the original four hour cut, Dottie admits she loves the game after Jimmy says he loves watching her play and that she's as great as Ted Williams and Ty Cobb.

Also cut: Dottie and Bob dated for five years and only got married the night he was drafted, Jimmy and Dottie were drawn to one another and even kissed (the original reason she requested to be transferred to another team),  and during one game Dottie barrels into a pregnant Marla on second base (that's why she's crying when Bob shows up, because of guilt).

[Bastet]

6 hours ago, slf said:

Didn't Penny Marshall come out and confirm that, as written, Dottie intentionally dropped the ball?

If she did, I'd love a link to it (even though it would pretty well ruin the movie for me); as far as I've ever been able to find, Marshall, Davis, Ganz, Mandel, etc. have never said.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Bastet

[Spartan Girl]

7 hours ago, slf said:

Didn't Penny Marshall come out and confirm that, as written, Dottie intentionally dropped the ball? I could swear she did. In the original four hour cut, Dottie admits she loves the game after Jimmy says he loves watching her play and that she's as great as Ted Williams and Ty Cobb.

Also cut: Dottie and Bob dated for five years and only got married the night he was drafted, Jimmy and Dottie were drawn to one another and even kissed (the original reason she requested to be transferred to another team),  and during one game Dottie barrels into a pregnant Marla on second base (that's why she's crying when Bob shows up, because of guilt).

I'm glad that last part was cut. I mean, I liked Jimmy and Dottie as a platonic relationship but to have them be attracted to each other? Just...no. 

[TigerLynx]

The studio wanted Jimmy and Dottie to have an affair, and Penny Marshall thought it was a bad idea.  Hanks and Davis agreed with Marshall.  The telegram scene where Betty finds out George is dead was added in later.  It was one of the last scenes filmed.

I would have hated for Jimmy and Dottie to have an affair, and if Dottie did drop the ball on purpose, that really ruins the movie for me.  That would be so unfair to the rest of her team.

[Spartan Girl]

I love Tom Hanks, but his character in the movie as a love interest?  Not with a thousand condoms.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Spartan Girl

[TigerLynx]

23 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I love Tom Hanks, but his character in the movie as a love interest?  Not with a thousand condoms.

Hee!!!

I liked Jimmy and Dottie as friends, and I liked that Dottie and Betty were in love with their husbands and had happy marriages.  I hate the trope of "anyone who is married is unhappy and looking for something better" that so many movies use.  Some people do have happy marriages.

I also liked that Jimmy went from being a complete jerk to the team, and telling them girls couldn't be ball players to taking the telegram away from the guy when he couldn't remember who it was he was supposed to give it to, and reading it himself.  It's bad enough being told your husband is dead via telegram.

[slf]

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

If she did, I'd love a link to it (even though it would pretty well ruin the movie for me); as far as I've ever been able to find, Marshall, Davis, Ganz, Mandel, etc. have never said.

She confirms it in the special edition dvd commentary which I found out about on this sports forum. I did some googling to see if anyone else checked out the dvd commentary and other people reference it, too.

I think with the cuts made to the film there's a lot that could be viewed ambiguously, including whether or not Dottie intentionally dropped the ball. I think Dottie came back to the team with the intention of whooping her sister's behind and winning the game but once she saw Kit start to lose it she wavered and chose her sister instead. (Yet another example of Dottie choosing family and duty over her own wants.)

3 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

The studio wanted Jimmy and Dottie to have an affair, and Penny Marshall thought it was a bad idea.  Hanks and Davis agreed with Marshall.  The telegram scene where Betty finds out George is dead was added in later.  It was one of the last scenes filmed.

I didn't mind the attraction and romantic feelings because it kind of continues the theme of missed chances for Dottie but an actual relationship or affair would've been off-putting, especially if she would've just gone back to Bob. 

Now, if Dottie hadn't been married....

Edited June 1, 2017 by slf

[Bastet]

15 minutes ago, slf said:

She confirms it in the special edition dvd commentary which I found out about on this sports forum.

I'll have to see if I can rent that version to hear exactly what she said (mine has no commentary).  Here's all that's said of it on that linked forum:

Quote

On one special edition commentary she said Dottie did it on purpose, Penny took a lot of shite for that. So I think her official position now is that it is up to the viewer to decide what happened. Dottie doing it on purpose was what she said initially though, so take that for what it's worth when you watch it.

If her intention at the time of filming/editing was, indeed, for Dottie to have dropped it on purpose, this movie would plummet down my list; that would make Dottie as crappy a character as Kit.  To screw over her teammates and coach - again, and worse (she'd already left them in the lurch by leaving right before the championship series, then she swoops in to reclaim her position - and deliberately fails at it) - because her sister can't handle reality?  "You wanted it more" meaning, "So I gave it to you"?  Well, I guess that would be the only saving grace if that's how it went down -- that would mean Kit still didn't beat her sister; just like the scout only took her because Dottie insisted, she only won because Dottie let her.  Let Dottie drop that into conversation the next time Kit is blaming Dottie for her own inadequacies.

[TigerLynx]

It ruins the film for me because I thought the ending showed:

1.  Dottie returned because she realized she shouldn't have abandoned her team, she did love playing baseball, and she wanted to see the season through to the end.  Then Dottie and her husband went home, and continued their life together because it was what they both wanted.  Bob was so happy and proud watching Dottie play.  It wasn't a case of the husband couldn't handle his wife being great at something.  It wasn't a threat to his ego.

2.  I thought Kit had finally grown up a little bit, and listened to her team mate that told her they were still in the game, and to shake it off.  So Kit put effort into winning instead of whining about Dottie.  If Dottie let Kit win, and her own team lose, that just ruins everything for me.  Kit got rewarded for bitching, and whining, and acting like a brat through the entire movie, and the other members of Dottie's team were robbed of their chance to actually win.

[Blergh]

Can I say that I never enjoyed performances more by either Madonna nor Miss O'Donnell than in this movie in which their characters truly shined?

[ruby24]

I like the Jimmy/Dottie relationship as it is, because I think it's quite obvious there's something of an attraction between them (especially on his end), but it's under the surface and sort of unspoken, and I like that because I think it works for the time and for her character. Dottie was a buttoned up, somewhat repressed character who abides by the conventions of her time without thinking to challenge it, including the stated "fact" that she's supposed to be a happily married housewife who doesn't want anything else in life, etc. 

But during the war when people's husbands were gone for a long time, affairs did happen, and there can understandably be attractions to other people. But Dottie isn't the kind of person who would ever act on that, imo. She'd just repress that too, like she does her love of the sport and her own desires. But Tom Hanks and Geena Davis had great chemistry in this, so I like thinking of it as sort "what might have been."

As for her dropping the ball, I could definitely see it either way. The look when she sees Kit having a breakdown in the dugout makes you think she might have done it. But then again, she does tell Ellen Sue to throw only high fast balls, and she does look panicked when Kit hits it and the tying run scores. If she had held onto the ball, the game would be tied, not over. 

[slf]

5 hours ago, Bastet said:

If her intention at the time of filming/editing was, indeed, for Dottie to have dropped it on purpose, this movie would plummet down my list; that would make Dottie as crappy a character as Kit.  To screw over her teammates and coach - again, and worse (she'd already left them in the lurch by leaving right before the championship series, then she swoops in to reclaim her position - and deliberately fails at it) - because her sister can't handle reality?  "You wanted it more" meaning, "So I gave it to you"?

I know, it's the one part of the movie I genuinely disliked. The other women busted their butts, played so hard, and winning meant so much to them (not that it didn't mean anything to the women on the other teams but we didn't spend the movie with them so I don't care); to lose the game they should've rightfully won...damn. Especially since finally beating Dottie apparently didn't help repair the sisters' relationship.

[Dee]

'Did Dottie drop the ball?' is rapidly becoming 'Could Jack and Rose both fit on the door?' for the 21st century.

[scarynikki12]

1 hour ago, Dee said:

'Did Dottie drop the ball?' is rapidly becoming 'Could Jack and Rose both fit on the door?' for the 21st century.

Ah, but there's way more ambiguity with Dottie than Jack and Rose.  As far as I'm concerned, since the movie didn't actually say that Dottie dropped on purpose (no matter what Penny said after the fact), then it could go either way depending on how we each watch.  With Titanic, they actually show how big that door was and yet no effort was made to make room for Jack.  And I don't even like Titanic but it still annoys.

[voiceover]

There are things I love about League, but it doesn't even crack my Top 20 of *sports* movies, because Kit was a shit, the ending should've been part of the DVD extras, Marla should never have left the team to get married, and Dottie dropped the ball on purpose. 

I'll buy into the Dottie/Jimmy attraction, because of the profound thing they had in common, but I was okay with it never going further.  Geena Davis was a perfect choice (as was Tom Hanks); Madonna was...meh (if you want to see her greatest-and-it-ain't-even-close performance, rent Desperately Seeking Susan).  And it should've been Debra Winger, not Lori Petty, as the sister.  Winger would've made you love Kit, despite the shit attitude.

I think the film suffered from trying to be too many things.  Is it a baseball movie? Is it a documentary on that league? it's a feminist treatise! it's about family!  it's about friendship!

Grrr.  When the best-remembered bit is Hanks' "No crying in baseball!" tirade (one of the best inspirational speeches in movie history!) you know that this story had problems.  Geena Davis dropping that ball was akin to Streisand throwing in the towel at the end of The Main Event.  And Ripley going back for the fucking cat in Alien.  All I could think of, each time, was, "DAMN!! What a stupid girly thing to do!"  

Forget the Garry Marshall character.  That was some sister-on-sister* betrayal.

*as in, her "sisters" on the team.

Edited June 2, 2017 by voiceover

[slf]

15 hours ago, voiceover said:

And it should've been Debra Winger, not Lori Petty, as the sister.  Winger would've made you love Kit, despite the shit attitude.

Cosigned. Debra Winger really had a knack for making me appreciate difficult characters. She looks more like she could be Davis' sister, too. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by slf

[voiceover]

And IIRC, Winger was offered the role but turned it down.  A missed oppo.

Like Winona Ryder backing out of Godfather lll.

[HoboClayton]

Nothing to add which hasn't already been said except I always thought they put Geena Davis is makeup to make her look older. It was only a few years ago that I found that not to be the case. She was played by Lynn Cartwright, just had Geena's voice dubbed. They did a good job with older Kit as well, her voice was also dubbed. She was played by Kathleen Butler. This is one of those movies that I will always turn on if it's playing, and carry on with what else I was doing.  The early to mid 90's had so so many fantastic films.

[Katy M]

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 2:45 AM, voiceover said:

Geena Davis dropping that ball was akin to Streisand throwing in the towel at the end of The Main Event.  And Ripley going back for the fucking cat in Alien.  All I could think of, each time, was, "DAMN!! What a stupid girly thing to do!"  

Forget the Garry Marshall character.  That was some sister-on-sister* betrayal.

*as in, her "sisters" on the team.

If she did it on purpose, it was betrayal.  I'm not so sure that she did. 

 

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 8:45 PM, slf said:

Especially since finally beating Dottie apparently didn't help repair the sisters' relationship.

I think it did.  Kit stayed and Dottie went back home, but Kit was able to be her own person and stop comparing herself to her sister.  Yeah, the ending it said they hadn't seen each other in a while, but the kids Aunt Kit, so they weren't completely estranged as they may have been if Kit weren't able to overcome her jealousy of her perfect sister.  Not that she should have needed to beat Dottie at baseball to do that, just saying that it helped.

[scarynikki12]

40 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think it did.  Kit stayed and Dottie went back home, but Kit was able to be her own person and stop comparing herself to her sister.  Yeah, the ending it said they hadn't seen each other in a while, but the kids Aunt Kit, so they weren't completely estranged as they may have been if Kit weren't able to overcome her jealousy of her perfect sister.  Not that she should have needed to beat Dottie at baseball to do that, just saying that it helped.

And Kit's grandkids called her Aunt Dottie.  I agree they just didn't see each other very often.  Kit liked Racine so I can easily imagine her being there permanently with her family while Dottie and Bob raised theirs in Oregon. 

One thing I'm always fascinated by is when Dottie said that "Kit won't be there, she'll be traveling around with that husband of hers."  Poor Frank, heh.  I've always assumed that Frank is Kit's second husband, based on Margaret not calling him Uncle Frank and saying"he's always been very nice to you."  The way she says it seems like Frank is a newer member of Kit's family and that Dottie didn't approve of him.  My headcanon is that Kit's husband passed away, she then meets and marries Frank, and they've been traveling the country/world ever since.  Dottie follows society expectations, which is why she suppressed her own love of baseball when Bob returned, so I can see her believing that Kit shouldn't have a second husband or that she and Frank should lead quiet lives near the grandchildren rather than having fun together as professional tourists. 

Dottie more than anyone should have remembered how much Kit loved being in the League so she should never have assumed that she'd be absent from the induction.  Dottie was the question mark, not Kit, as we saw with Margaret basically kicking her out of the house with admonishments as to her denial about how special the experience was.  Meanwhile, Kit was so excited about it that she brought her whole family.  I think Kit just went to the Racine reunion first, which is why she seemed to show up late, and why Dottie was surprised (though delighted) to see her. 

I also think it was a smart move for Jimmy to have passed by the time of the induction.  He made it to the Hall of Fame himself, and lived a very long time, but some reunions don't happen.  Same with Evelyn.  I get teary when Dottie sees Jimmy's picture, or when Stillwell (all grown up and mature!) solemnly reveals Evelyn's death. 

One thing that always makes me laugh is how it seems like everyone in the Peaches section applauds Dottie and Kit hugging.  I know they aren't but, since we don't know what else was going on at the same time, it seems like it and is pretty funny.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

I get teary when Dottie sees Jimmy's picture, or when Stillwell (all grown up and mature!) solemnly reveals Evelyn's death. 

I love the bittersweet smile Stillwell forces when someone asks to take his picture.  He's glad to be there, honoring the greatest time in his mom's life, but he misses her, so it also hurts to be surrounded by all these happy, healthy former teammates of hers.

[memememe76]

I loved this movie so much. I didn't realize there was so much debate over the final play. I always figured that Kit won fair and square. 

Yes, I just loved the Madonna and Rosie friendship. Is there any current equivalent? But also props to Geena for playing the square with real winning charisma. 

Edited June 4, 2017 by memememe76

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

One thing I'm always fascinated by is when Dottie said that "Kit won't be there, she'll be traveling around with that husband of hers."  Poor Frank, heh.  I've always assumed that Frank is Kit's second husband, based on Margaret not calling him Uncle Frank and saying"he's always been very nice to you."  The way she says it seems like Frank is a newer member of Kit's family and that Dottie didn't approve of him.  My headcanon is that Kit's husband passed away, she then meets and marries Frank, and they've been traveling the country/world ever since.  Dottie follows society expectations, which is why she suppressed her own love of baseball when Bob returned, so I can see her believing that Kit shouldn't have a second husband or that she and Frank should lead quiet lives near the grandchildren rather than having fun together as professional tourists. 

Wow.  I have to say, you've put a lot more thought into Dottie and Kit's post movie life than I ever did.  LOL. 

 

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

love the bittersweet smile Stillwell forces when someone asks to take his picture.  He's glad to be there, honoring the greatest time in his mom's life, but he misses her, so it also hurts to be surrounded by all these happy, healthy former teammates of hers.

That gets me every time.  And, how one of the Peaches calls out "Stillwell Angel" for him to pose, like his mom always called him.

[voiceover]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

If she did it on purpose, it was betrayal.  

You're right.  It was betrayal.  She chose her sister over her team.  Oddly enough, it wouldn't have been the reverse -- betrayal of her sister -- had she held onto the ball (though Kit would never stop blaming her).  

One of the main reasons this film isn't in my Top 10 -- or Top 20! of sports movies.

It's #22. ?

[Katy M]

Just now, voiceover said:

You're right.  It was betrayal.  She chose her sister over her team.  Oddly enough, it wouldn't have been the reverse -- betrayal of her sister -- had she held onto the ball (though Kit would never stop blaming her).  

One of the main reasons this film isn't in my Top 10 -- or Top 20! of sports movies.

It's #22. ?

Yeah, but I don't think she did it on purpose.  I think she dropped the ball. 

[Bastet]

If the ball drop was intended by the writers/director to be deliberate, it's odd that there's no follow-up or fallout to that choice in the film.  It would be this awful action by the main character, that no one else knows about (because if they knew, they'd say something) -- Jimmy, her teammates, Kit, even Dottie herself would have major feelings about it.  It would have been another reason for her to walk away from the game and to be reluctant to attend the Hall of Fame ceremony, but it's never cited as a reason for either of those things.  Jimmy would be disappointed in her as a player, and personally as well.  Her teammates would be devastated and angry.  Kit would (and this would be the only bright spot for me) find out she still can't beat her sister when they both play their best; Dottie is just better, and the only way Kit wins is if Dottie lets her.  But none of that happens.

So, for me, it's not just that Dottie would SUCK to have dropped it on purpose, it's that it's too huge a development to be treated so casually in the film.  Maybe if I track down the commentary, or at least see a direct quote, of what Marshall reportedly said (that it was on purpose, and then apparently said at other times it's ambiguous and you can take it either way), I'll have to come to terms with the director intending it one way and me perceiving it another, but for now I'm not convinced.

[nilyank]

There is no way that Jimmy would have stood there  watching Kit as she and her team celebrated winning the World Series and not be mad if Dottie dropped the ball. He would have said something to Dottie and in a not so nice way. 

[Bastet]

I don't think, from his vantage point, Jimmy would have known for sure Dottie dropped the ball on purpose if she did.  I just think that, if the film was saying she did, he'd have made a suspicion-laden, guilt-inducing comment about how she's held on under greater pressure or similar, some of her teammates would have traded similar musings, etc.  It's just such a huge thing to leave on the table that I can't buy it.

[Spartan Girl]

6 hours ago, Bastet said:

I love the bittersweet smile Stillwell forces when someone asks to take his picture.  He's glad to be there, honoring the greatest time in his mom's life, but he misses her, so it also hurts to be surrounded by all these happy, healthy former teammates of hers.

Aw, that Stillwell.  It wouldn't be fun for any little kid to be carted off from place to place, and with his dad absent, his mom unable to rein him in and without any other kids to play with, it's kind of understandable that he'd run wild.

But he wasn't such a bad boy: even he was affected by Betty getting the news that George died. And the end showed that he turned out okay as an adult.

[slf]

Props to the casting of the older actresses, especially the one playing Dottie; I honestly thought it was Geena Davis in old-age makeup the first time I saw the movie.

[mattie0808]

Now, this is a thread I can spend some time in! ;)

I immediately and always felt Dottie dropped the ball on purpose, and yes, I absolutely HATE that as an ending. Dottie would have been more prepared/girded up for that play at the plate than any other play in her career. I don't care how much Kit "wanted it" or how much extra shoulder she threw at her. They purposely showed the Dottie can take a serious hit and maintain her grip. She's bigger than Kit and tough as nails. I've never thought that Kit just sort of got her that one time.

To be honest, I wouldn't like it much even if it were proven that Dottie didn't do it on purpose, because the entire idea of Kit's "redemption" or "triumph" or whatever doesn't work for me. Dottie wasn't a bad sister. She wasn't trying to hurt Kit, or overshadow her, or any of the things that Kit felt -- Kit felt them because she was simply and frankly immature. She didn't overcome her immautrity or see her sister fairly, she just felt better because she beat her. So...bleh, anyway. But I do think Dottie dropping the ball fits more with her personality and the conflicting way she felt about her guilt over Kit (she is competitive with her, but can't help but hurt when she sees Kit hurting), than with her just being unable to make that play.

I absolutely, positively LOVE this movie except for this part. It's really annoying, lol.

With Titanic, they actually show how big that door was and yet no effort was made to make room for Jack.

Doesn't Jack try to get on with her, but they don't balance the weight and it tips over, putting them both back in the water? They could have tried again, perhaps ;), but I do think that was supposed to be the idea?

Edited June 4, 2017 by mattie0808

[MissT]

Some trivia facts.    Did you know that the actress playing Betty is actually Penny Marshall's daughter.    She also played the wife of Bill Paxton in Apollo 13.    

[slf]

4 hours ago, mattie0808 said:

Doesn't Jack try to get on with her, but they don't balance the weight and it tips over, putting them both back in the water? They could have tried again, perhaps ;), but I do think that was supposed to be the idea?

Yeah, it wasn't an issue of there not being enough room it was an issue of their combined weight being too much for the door. I think even if she had scooted over to the right and he tried to climb up on the left the door wouldn't have been able to hold them both. (Never understood why more people weren't just ripping doors off the hinges, throwing them into the water, jumping in, and trying to paddle out as far away from the sinking ship as they could.)

2 hours ago, MissT said:

Some trivia facts.    Did you know that the actress playing Betty is actually Penny Marshall's daughter.    She also played the wife of Bill Paxton in Apollo 13.    

Betty Spaghetti? Aw, she's adorable. The whole Marshall family was involved with this movie!

[Remlab]

I was about 9 when this movie came out, and had just started playing softball. I was a pitcher, my sister was the catcher. (For reference, our oldest sister played first, was lead off hitter. I batted 3rd, catcher sis batted cleanup.) She was older and infinitely better than I was, so this movie resonated a lot in our household. We played together for over 10 years, and I love that Dottie dropped the ball on purpose. It always made me feel like if that me and my sister, she would choose me over the team. It sucks that she let her team down, but it helped repair her relationship with her sister, and that's important too. I think you can say this movie helped shape my childhood.

Our dad took all 3 of us to see this in the theatre, and to this day, one of us will text the others if this is on tv. I can still sing the song, too. "Batter up, hear that call, the time has come, for one and all... to play ball!"

[SlovakPrincess]

On June 1, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Dee said:

'Did Dottie drop the ball?' is rapidly becoming 'Could Jack and Rose both fit on the door?' for the 21st century.

LOL.  (But it wasn't the size of the door, it was the fact that Jack was too heavy and weighed it down too much.)

But I choose to believe Dottie did not throw the game, because that would really ruin it for me.  I loathed Kit, and I would hope Dottie wouldn't do that to her team.   

[scarynikki12]

6 hours ago, mattie0808 said:

Doesn't Jack try to get on with her, but they don't balance the weight and it tips over, putting them both back in the water? They could have tried again, perhaps ;), but I do think that was supposed to be the idea?

I only saw Titanic once and hated it so I only remember that the door was big enough.

[slf]

Apparently the actresses had to wear uniforms made of wool even though they were playing in 100+ heat because Marshall wanted things to be authentic. They also had to use webless gloves, which I know nothing about but apparently make catching harder. And all the injuries, including the bruises, in the film were real. Which means that enormous bruise Alice got after sliding was legit, which: ouch.

Edited June 5, 2017 by slf

[Bastet]

I'd have gone with replica uniforms for comfort, but I love that the actors all had to know how to play, not just be able hit and catch in a close-up; the general athleticism in the wide shots is my big thing in terms of authenticity.

While we're sharing trivia, per Marshall's memoir, Steven Spielberg loved the staging of a  game between real AAGPBL players to close out the film, and got the idea to end Schindler's List by inviting real-life survivors from that list to pay their respects at the grave; he called Marshall to ask if she'd mind him copying the concept.