Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[HighwayFlower]

I don’t have a problem with the ending itself in concept, but how they got to it. They ruined an amazing series with a rushed last season. They deserve every criticism for that. Had they agreed to more episodes, maybe they could have made this believable. They focused on special effects and ignored character development. Damage is done though. Sure some people will like it, but’s it’s legacy will be lumped in with the crap endings of Lost and Dexter. 

[Lady Iris]

*small voice* I liked the Lost ending. Vincent that beautiful dog.

 I'm not convinced I'll buy Sunday's ending so well given the reasons you just stated and there's no cute dogs to provide consoling.

[stagmania]

14 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I just was just never convinced by this romance on screen.

This is exactly the point I was making in the first place - they did not write the romance well, and it lessens the impact of the tragic ending. Glad we can agree!

4 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

*small voice* I liked the Lost ending. Vincent that beautiful dog.

I will sit with you at this table.

Edited May 17, 2019 by stagmania

[mirsk1]

18 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Thinking a lot about the character endgames that we now know, I think a lot of it is very fitting, even if how they got there is questionable:

Theon: Dies at Winterfell, the castle he once attacked and took, defending Bran and the other Starks

Jorah: Dies defending Dany (most of us figured he would go that way, anyway)

Lyanna: After all her tough talk about being a hero, dies doing something heroic (sacrificing herself to take out the giant)

Jaime: Unable to abandon Cersei and dies in her arms as he wished ("She'll be the end of you")

Cersei: After doing everything to preserve her power, dies when the Red Keep literally comes crashing down on her head

Sandor: Dies getting the revenge he wanted but successfully stops Arya from dying in her quest for vengeance

Jon: After years of being used by other people (even his friends and family like Sansa and Sam) in service of this or that aim and thrust into this or that position of leadership against his wishes, he finally finds peace beyond the Wall with people who didn't care about his bastardy and who don't care about his claim

Tyrion: Like Tywin, brings what we can assume will be peace and prosperity to Westeros by serving as Hand to a checked-out king (although not a mad one in Tyrion's case)

Arya: Gives up her quest for vengeance, rejects a conventional existence and seeks out a life of adventure

Sansa: Remains Lady of Winterfell

Dany: Brought down by her refusal to restrain her Targaryen side, which had been an ongoing problem (Dany becoming less and less inclined to listen to Tyrion's calls for restraint, e.g.)

...I dunno. Apart from King Bran, it all works for me. That leaves me in the minority, I realize. I now see what John Bradley was talking about in terms of "satisfying," where he compared S8 to the Red Wedding. All of this fits and feels right to me (apart from King Bran), even if it's painful and tragic, maybe even because it's painful and tragic. A lot of it feels brutally logical to me, even Dany's dark turn. 

Also, while we talk about the Lannisters having eaten the show and D&D's clear preference for them, I do think there was something truly moving and even beautiful about how the Lannister siblings were there for each other at the very end. Cersei spared Tyrion's life when he walked within range of her archers, even though it would have been an easy and cheap way to provoke Dany. Tyrion did something that he thought was signing his own death warrant not only to try to save KL but also to give Jaime and Cersei a shot at escaping with their lives. Jaime gave up any shot at redemption and sacrificed his own life to die alongside Cersei. And Cersei, realizing it was all over, tearfully reconciled with Jaime, begging him not to let her die. For all the talk about how pure the Starks' love is and how toxic the Lannisters supposedly are, when push came to shove, it was the Lannisters who fought for each other and ultimately died (or tried to die, in Tyrion's case) for each other.

ITA

[Umbelina]

8 hours ago, Soup333 said:

Glad you put it this way because this is how it played to me. I wish they would have made him really love her - not just his words but his actions. This whole time I felt like he liked her well enough (until the reveal) but he was obligated to be true to his word and that’s why he’s doing all of this. Make him not give a shit about their familial relationship and her go mad anyway. Then when he has to kill her 🙄 there’s an internal struggle beyond snuffing out the queen he swore allegiance to. 

Exactly.

We needed to watch them fall in love, and be in love.  We didn't need to hear other characters say that Jon loves her, or she loves him.  For this to be the kind of tragedy I think they are going for here?  FIRST STEP, let us see them actually be in love, why they are in love, and do that away from CGI scenes.  It's damn hard to emote on green screen.

Also, actors need words, not just moody stares. 

I don't believe this is love because they haven't show that.  Both actors were capable of showing that, but they were not given those kind of scripts.

7 hours ago, stagmania said:

Given how terrible both their characterizations have been this season, I expect this to be painful on several levels. I also just keep thinking about how badly they’ve set up what is obviously supposed to play as tragedy. How much deeper would this land if they’d written them a proper romance? If Jon actually was in love with Daenerys? If they didn’t have him just avoid her once he found out who he is, but rather sincerely struggle to reconcile his identity issues, his desire for her, his disapproval of her actions and his duty to take the throne for the good of the people. This should have been very meaty material for Jon (and Kit Harrington) and instead it was just a big ol’ nothing.

ETA: Jinx, @Soup333!

Exactly. 

5 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

I'm confused. We're supposed to believe that the woman we've been cheering on the past several years through all her trials and tribulations has just suddenly gone banana sandwich and is going to be killed in the final ep by her nephewlover? Right? That's what the writing on the wall is?

I think we are supposed to ask ourselves WHY she was cheered all along. 

The "hero edit" can most aptly be compared to a great ad campaign for a politician in some ways.  We saw other things about her that were disturbing, but she was so beautiful, so confident, so cool with her dragons, and her freeing the slaves was impressive.  (Less impressive than what happened to them later, but hey!  DRAGONS!

I think it's also a GRRM cautionary tale about heroes and saviors.  We need to always look behind the curtain.

3 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Yes. Because we must be reminded that Dany killed thousands of innocent people. Tens of thousands of innocent people after the bells rang. We must be reminded that we need to care about all those poor innocents so that the audience cheers when Dany gets what’s coming to her. 

Looking back, the show did set up some of the "we should care about the innocent victims of war" back when they had GRRM writing to work with. 

Should they have continued this, since they knew their ending.  Oh hell yes. 

That's a fail for D and D.

3 hours ago, Clawdette said:

If the leak about Drogon flying away with Dany's body is true, I just have one question.

How does he accomplish this?  Is she in his mouth?  Does he grab her and do a head flip so she lands on his back?  Does he "ask" Jon to lend a hand?  

That's going to require top-shelf CGI.

(I realize that I should probably use the "it" pronoun when referring to Drogon since dragons are asexual but it just seems like a he to me.)

They are willing to spend millions of dollars and thousands of hours on CGI, it will be "top shelf." 

Now, if they had only spent that much time on story, on breathing characters on screen... sigh

That said, I think he takes her to the Smoking Seas and Valyria.  Where Drogon has laid eggs.  😉

3 hours ago, funnygirl said:

I still don't understand how Drogon doesn't light Jon up upon finding Dany dead. Or that Grey Worm and the unsullied don't kill him on the spot when he turns himself in. 

Whatever. 

Jon's a Targ too, but I doubt we will find out.  We will in the books if they ever arrive though.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I don't think the non-spoiled audience will be too shocked when Jon kills Dany. They can all see where this is going. That's the main reason in my opinion why the blowback over 8x05 was so intense. Everyone knew Dany was a dead woman and Team Jon (if not necessarily Jon) would have to put her down the minute she set civilians on fire.

I've hung out in the Unsullied threads for a few weeks, seeing how truly unspoiled, but avid show watchers see this. 

They are pretty damn close to many things in this ending already in the spec. 

1 hour ago, JennyMominFL said:

Not all of us have been cheering for Dany

Or we stopped along the way, when things she did gave us pause, and cause to be wary of her.  I'm one of those.

[Colorful Mess]

6 minutes ago, stagmania said:

This is exactly the point I was making in the first place - they did not write the romance well, and it lessens the impact of the tragic ending. Glad we can agree!

No we don't agree. I'm saying there's a reason why they didn't write it well: character wise, Jon and Dany together are a hot mess. He would have no reason to be attracted to her other than by looks. Which is shallow. And explains why there's nothing of substance there to actually write well even if they had tried.  

[Lady Iris]

I think Jon knew he had legitimate feelings when she landed Drogon in the middle of a mess of dead people to come and save him and the others. He recognized how pretty amazing she was in that moment and when he woke up to her in his bed and she was looking particularly angelic. Hell, I'd have fallen in love in that moment.

[kittykat]

22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Thinking a lot about the character endgames that we now know, I think a lot of it is very fitting, even if how they got there is questionable:

Theon: Dies at Winterfell, the castle he once attacked and took, defending Bran and the other Starks

Jorah: Dies defending Dany (most of us figured he would go that way, anyway)

Lyanna: After all her tough talk about being a hero, dies doing something heroic (sacrificing herself to take out the giant)

Jaime: Unable to abandon Cersei and dies in her arms as he wished ("She'll be the end of you")

Cersei: After doing everything to preserve her power, dies when the Red Keep literally comes crashing down on her head

Sandor: Dies getting the revenge he wanted but successfully stops Arya from dying in her quest for vengeance

Jon: After years of being used by other people (even his friends and family like Sansa and Sam) in service of this or that aim and thrust into this or that position of leadership against his wishes, he finally finds peace beyond the Wall with people who didn't care about his bastardy and who don't care about his claim

Tyrion: Like Tywin, brings what we can assume will be peace and prosperity to Westeros by serving as Hand to a checked-out king (although not a mad one in Tyrion's case)

Arya: Gives up her quest for vengeance, rejects a conventional existence and seeks out a life of adventure

Sansa: Remains Lady of Winterfell

Dany: Brought down by her refusal to restrain her Targaryen side, which had been an ongoing problem (Dany becoming less and less inclined to listen to Tyrion's calls for restraint, e.g.)

...I dunno. Apart from King Bran, it all works for me. That leaves me in the minority, I realize. I now see what John Bradley was talking about in terms of "satisfying," where he compared S8 to the Red Wedding. All of this fits and feels right to me (apart from King Bran), even if it's painful and tragic, maybe even because it's painful and tragic. A lot of it feels brutally logical to me, even Dany's dark turn. 

Also, while we talk about the Lannisters having eaten the show and D&D's clear preference for them, I do think there was something truly moving and even beautiful about how the Lannister siblings were there for each other at the very end. Cersei spared Tyrion's life when he walked within range of her archers, even though it would have been an easy and cheap way to provoke Dany. Tyrion did something that he thought was signing his own death warrant not only to try to save KL but also to give Jaime and Cersei a shot at escaping with their lives. Jaime gave up any shot at redemption and sacrificed his own life to die alongside Cersei. And Cersei, realizing it was all over, tearfully reconciled with Jaime, begging him not to let her die. For all the talk about how pure the Starks' love is and how toxic the Lannisters supposedly are, when push came to shove, it was the Lannisters who loved each other, fought for each other and ultimately died (or tried to die, in Tyrion's case) for each other.

All of this!

I don't hate King Bran but I get it, why not have the man who knows everything rule the realm?  Yes it would have been nice to give him more screentime and a little more insight this whole time but I'll ring the bells in D&D's direction on that one (even though this part is also GRRM).  Maybe it was all a long con to get a 3ER on the throne.

Agreed about the Lannisters, despite their hatred for another Tyrion and Cersei could never pull the trigger on one another.  And to those hating on Tyrion freeing Jaime as treason, Jaime committed treason by freeing Tyrion in 4.10 so I saw it more as paying it back.

[HighwayFlower]

None of this paints Jon in a very good light. He was willing to bang her, and if it wasn’t love I guess he is shallow after all. He offered her no security when she desperately needed it, and even if the aunt part grossed him out, he could have showed compassion as a caring friend, and now he will shank her and run off to be a lumberjack....  basically. 

[stagmania]

7 minutes ago, kittykat said:

Agreed about the Lannisters, despite their hatred for another Tyrion and Cersei could never pull the trigger on one another.  And to those hating on Tyrion freeing Jaime as treason, Jaime committed treason by freeing Tyrion in 4.10 so I saw it more as paying it back.

Personally, I'm not hating on that as a character choice for Tyrion. My issue with it is that there are no consequences for it, or anything Tyrion has done for the last three seasons. After the way they've written him since season 5, he really has no business ending this story as de facto ruler.

Edited May 17, 2019 by stagmania

[Colorful Mess]

Just now, Lady Iris said:

I think Jon knew he had legitimate feelings when she landed Drogon in the middle of a mess of dead people to come and save him and the others. He recognized how pretty amazing she was in that moment and when he woke up to her in his bed and she was looking particularly angelic. Hell, I'd have fallen in love in that moment.

Yeah that was terrible writing. Wight hunt was just as bad as anything else they've written post S5. It was also the moment Jon got inducted into the Dany cult and lost all of his critical thinking skills and became another slavish follower like Jorah and Daario because she rode a dragon. Then she rides her dragon to slaughter millions of people right before his eyes now. Romantic!

This isn't a tragic romance, this is a self-destructive abusive relationship. All of this was within Dany's control. I think there is a dark undercurrent to their relationship where he was held hostage on Dragonstone and hasnt been free since. Cant wait for him to kill his abuser. 

[Soup333]

27 minutes ago, HighwayFlower said:

I don’t have a problem with the ending itself in concept, but how they got to it. They ruined an amazing series with a rushed last season. They deserve every criticism for that. Had they agreed to more episodes, maybe they could have made this believable. They focused on special effects and ignored character development. Damage is done though. Sure some people will like it, but’s it’s legacy will be lumped in with the crap endings of Lost and Dexter. 

And you cannot tell me this won’t have an impact to the franchise, even if D&D get to run off and roll around naked in the money they’ve made. It will be their legacy as well. 

As I said before, I don’t expect the prequels to be scraped or anything that dramatic but I can see some hardcore fans being less enthused about coming back for that. I’m not a hard core fan and I’m out. And some might be willing to wait a bit if the next books are ever published to see how it’s really going to end before purchasing. 

[YaddaYadda]

Quote

Lyanna: After all her tough talk about being a hero, dies doing something heroic (sacrificing herself to take out the giant)

I doubt Lyanna Mormont has any kind of role to play in the books. Her mother is still alive and she has three sisters older than her.

[Minneapple]

23 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I just was just never convinced by this romance on screen. Other people criticize the writing all day long but the Jon/Dany "romance" is like some sacred cow that can't be slaughtered?

It was the chemistry. They had terrible, soul-sucking chemistry. Even in season 7, when they actually had more than one or two conversations, The only time I maybe believed in them was when Dany agreed to help against the AOTD and Jon bent the knee. If they had had more time and developed the relationship better it might have been more believable, but I honestly found them awkward from the start.

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

You know, I have the same thought when I read some of these posts on Sansa.

These two women bring out the worst in people. Seriously it’s like rational discussion goes out the window and personal, deeply rooted hatred comes out 🤦🏻‍♀️

[MrsR]

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

These two women bring out the worst in people. Seriously it’s like rational discussion goes out the window and personal, deeply rooted hatred comes out 🤦🏻‍♀️

Too True.

But some of the rhetoric is awesome. 

"shanks her and runs off to be a lumberjack." had me giggling for two whole minutes.

[stagmania]

1 minute ago, Minneapple said:

The only time I maybe believed in them was when Dany agreed to help against the AOTD and Jon bent the knee. If they had had more time and developed the relationship better it might have been more believable, but I honestly found them awkward from the start.

I just said to a friend today that this is the only scene they ever had that came off as somewhat romantic. I do think it was more than a lack of actor chemistry, though - there was no real romantic story written for them. It went from this to one very bad and abrupt sex scene with no dialogue, to then suddenly being told they're together and the incident that would make it fall apart happening in the same episode. The love story, such as it was, literally lasted 3 episodes, and this is what they're hanging their big story-ending tragedy on.

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, MrsR said:

Too True.

But some of the rhetoric is awesome. 

"shanks her and runs off to be a lumberjack." had me giggling for two whole minutes.

Lmao there is some comedy gold to be found. I’m loving the memes!!

[kittykat]

14 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Personally, I'm not hating on that as a character choice for Tyrion. My issue with it is that there are no consequences for it, or anything Tyrion has done for the last three seasons. After the way they've written him since season 5, he really has no business ending this story as de facto ruler

Honestly I always found Tyrions terrible tactics out of character and more or less blamed D&D's crappy plotting to pare down Dany's armies and stay Cersei's death until S8.

Tyrions worst move was to take Casterly Rock out of spite.  Before that he had a point in terms of not immediately going full dragon and using Westeros troops vs. foreign troops to conquer KL and show that Dany already had support but again that was poor writing and execution and they chose to funnel their dumb tactics through Tyrion.

[Chaser]

Jonerys doesn't work for me because I can't see Dany ever being attracted to Jon and I can't see Jon ever being attracted to Dany. Just fundamentally different people. They needed epic chemistry to overcome that and it was never there.

[stagmania]

Just now, kittykat said:

Honestly I always found Tyrions terrible tactics out of character and more or less blamed D&D's crappy plotting to pare down Dany's armies and stay Cersei's death until S8.

Yeah I think that's a fair way to spin it since they clearly still want the audience to view him as a hero. You'd think if they knew he was ending up as Hand they'd have him be successful or right about anything in the last couple seasons.

[Hana Chan]

20 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

This isn't a tragic romance, this is a self-destructive abusive relationship. All of this was within Dany's control. I think there is a dark undercurrent to their relationship where he was held hostage on Dragonstone and hasnt been free since. Cant wait for him to kill his abuser. 

It certainly wasn't a relationship of equals. That was obvious with Jon constantly having to assure Dany that she was "his queen" and that he was obeying her every command, even when it went against his better judgement (like setting out for KL before their troops had a chance to recover after fighting the AOTD). And that Dany wasn't able to conceptualize sharing power with the man that she claimed to love in order to 1) keep their relationship and 2) possibly solidify her claim to ruling Westeros and getting the love of the people that she so desired. 

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Jonerys doesn't work for me because I can't see Dany ever being attracted to Jon and I can't see Jon ever being attracted to Dany. Just fundamentally different people. They needed epic chemistry to overcome that and it was never there.

BookJon maybe I can see her being interested, this version of Jon is so far removed from what I can see her being interested in it’s baffling. But whatever. Emilia Clarke at least sold it more. I’m getting nothing from Kit Harington this season , with anything he’s doing . And I don’t blame him . 

[Bianca Castafiore]

14 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I just said to a friend today that this is the only scene they ever had that came off as somewhat romantic. I do think it was more than a lack of actor chemistry, though - there was no real romantic story written for them. It went from this to one very bad and abrupt sex scene with no dialogue, to then suddenly being told they're together and the incident that would make it fall apart happening in the same episode. The love story, such as it was, literally lasted 3 episodes, and this is what they're hanging their big story-ending tragedy on.

Maybe but we also had the build up for this supposedly huge love story during whole season 7 and tbh not for a single second I bought that they were falling in love. It was mostly other characters pointing it out. Emilia and Kit had great chemistry with other characters but unfortunately not with each other.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Bianca Castafiore

[YaddaYadda]

2 minutes ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

Maybe but we also had the build up for this supposedly huge love story during whole season 7 and tbh not for a single second I bought that they were falling in love. It was mostly other characters pointing out. Emilia and Kit had great chemistry with other characters but unfortunately not with each other.

Is it supposed to be a love story, though. I don't get that impression from the books personally, especially since it seems like Jon and Dany won't even meet in Winds of Winter.

[Umbelina]

8 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

It certainly wasn't a relationship of equals. That was obvious with Jon constantly having to assure Dany that she was "his queen" and that he was obeying her every command, even when it went against his better judgement (like setting out for KL before their troops had a chance to recover after fighting the AOTD). And that Dany wasn't able to conceptualize sharing power with the man that she claimed to love in order to 1) keep their relationship and 2) possibly solidify her claim to ruling Westeros and getting the love of the people that she so desired. 

That's a good point.

15 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I just said to a friend today that this is the only scene they ever had that came off as somewhat romantic. I do think it was more than a lack of actor chemistry, though - there was no real romantic story written for them. It went from this to one very bad and abrupt sex scene with no dialogue, to then suddenly being told they're together and the incident that would make it fall apart happening in the same episode. The love story, such as it was, literally lasted 3 episodes, and this is what they're hanging their big story-ending tragedy on.

2 minutes ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

Maybe but we also had the build up for this supposedly huge love story during whole season 7 and tbh not for a single second I bought that they were falling in love. It was mostly other characters pointing out. Emilia and Kit had great chemistry with other characters but unfortunately not with each other.

Exactly, but I do not blame the actors for "lack of chemistry" at all. 

If it's not on the page?  They can't deliver it. 

The only explanation is that it took away from more fights!  battles!  dragons!  Frankly, those were the only things that mattered to the showrunners during this mad rush to the end, and the arbitrary number of episodes they set for themselves long ago.

Hell or high water?  Ruining characters or not?  They were going to fit in as much CGI and "never been done before!" blockbuster action movie shit as possible, at the expense of nearly every character on screen.

With this ending though?  We should have seen love between the two.  We didn't.  Because it wasn't written.

10 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Jonerys doesn't work for me because I can't see Dany ever being attracted to Jon and I can't see Jon ever being attracted to Dany. Just fundamentally different people. They needed epic chemistry to overcome that and it was never there.

I can see it, in the hands of any competent writers who gave a shit about showing it?  I can see it.

[ulkis]

4 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Yes. Because we must be reminded that Dany killed thousands of innocent people. Tens of thousands of innocent people after the bells rang. We must be reminded that we need to care about all those poor innocents so that the audience cheers when Dany gets what’s coming to her. 

I don't think anyone's supposed to be cheering it on. I'm sure the writers think of it as a grand tragedy.

Edited May 17, 2019 by ulkis

[ulkis]

41 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Yeah that was terrible writing. Wight hunt was just as bad as anything else they've written post S5. It was also the moment Jon got inducted into the Dany cult and lost all of his critical thinking skills and became another slavish follower like Jorah and Daario because she rode a dragon. Then she rides her dragon to slaughter millions of people right before his eyes now. Romantic!

I wouldn't put it that way but yeah the moment where Dany comes and saves them i think was Jon was dazzled by her first and foremost, and who wouldn't be. But that was being dazzled by her, imo, not love. Not that it couldn't have turned into love.

[SNeaker]

2 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I don't think anyone's supposed to be cheering it on. I'm sure the writers think of it as a grand tragedy.

Based on the description of the scene it sounds like she goes full on mustache twirling mwa ha ha evil in this one with no remorse and only more plans for more killin’ cuz that’s what she do. Does not sound at all like it could be played as tragedy but more like “phew, glad we got rid of THAT crazy bitch.”

[Eyes High]

Looking at Jon/Dany versus other relationships on the show, from the perspective of someone who watches a lot of TV romances, I think the writers have come up with some very romantic stuff for non-Jon/Dany pairings. 

Jaime/Brienne had some really nice show-only moments: Brienne looking back at Jaime when she was riding away, Jaime looking at Tarth, Jaime telling her that Oathkeeper would always be hers, etc. Their drunken hookup and brutal breakup in 8x04 make the whole thing less appealing in retrospect, but D&D did a good job of selling the slow burn beforehand.

Jaime and Cersei's death scene was also very romantic, if incredibly fucked up. D&D also did a good job of transmuting Book Jorah's gross obsession with Dany into a love that was noble, chivalrous and even beautiful on the show. Grey Worm and Missandei's relationship was sweet and believable. And even if they don't end up together, Tyrion kissing Sansa's hand before facing death was the single most romantic moment in this show, ever.

They've also done a good job with several non-romantic relationships. Theon and Sansa's trauma-forged bond was believable. Sandor and Arya's relationship in the show was very touching. Tyrion and Jaime's relationship was always very well rendered. Theon and Yara had a great sibling relationship. Pod and Brienne's developing bond, with Pod's sweet devotion and Brienne's grudging acceptance of that devotion, was always well written. And even though Jorah and Dany's relationship remained platonic, Dany's love for him was always shown to be deep and undeniable. Tormund's journey from Jon's enemy to one of his closest friends and most ardent supporters totally worked. And so on. 

My conclusion is that D&D can write great relationships, romantic or otherwise. I think with Jon/Dany, though, everything was just so slightly off, like Dany goading Jon into riding the dragon in 8x01, and I think in retrospect that that was intentional. It was a very difficult needle to thread, though. How can you simultaneously sell the audience completely on Jon and Dany's love for each other while also showing the cracks in the foundation that will cause everything to collapse?

Edited May 17, 2019 by Eyes High

[ulkis]

Just now, SNeaker said:

Based on the description of the scene it sounds like she goes full on mustache twirling mwa ha ha evil in this one with no remorse and only more plans for more killin’ cuz that’s what she do. Does not sound at all like it could be played as tragedy but more like “phew, glad we got rid of THAT crazy bitch.”

Well, I didn't say they'd be successful at whatever they were going for, heh. I haven't read the description so I can't say for sure what I think they thought they were going for until I see it. But it's certainly, uh, interesting, if they thought they could get the most of the audience to go "woo hoo yeah kill Dany" in two episodes, and i say this as someone who is indifferent to her.

[chrisvee]

Are we sure Drogon doesn’t turn Jon into a s’more? Could the ‘exiled to the north’ be fake scenes?

Ever since Drogon stared at Jon in 8.01 I’ve been worried.

[QuinnM]

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

They've also done a good job with several non-romantic relationships.

Don't forget one of my personal favorites, Tywin and Arya.  

[stagmania]

7 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

My conclusion is that D&D can write great relationships, romantic or otherwise. I think with Jon/Dany, though, everything was just so slightly off, like Dany goading Jon into riding the dragon in 8x01, and I think in retrospect that that was intentional. It was a very difficult needle to thread, though. How can you simultaneously sell the audience completely on Jon and Dany's love for each other while also showing the cracks in the foundation that will cause everything to collapse?

I would be more willing to believe this was intentional if they hadn’t dropped the ball on every aspect of Jon’s story this season. But they have. They just don’t seem interested in him.

[chrisvee]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

This is exactly the point I was making in the first place - they did not write the romance well, and it lessens the impact of the tragic ending. Glad we can agree!

I will sit with you at this table.

I am taking a seat there too. I thought all of them waiting for each other to go forward into the afterlife was beautiful.

OAN I think that if Jon’s ending is to go north with the free people, he will eventually be happy.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Lady Iris said:

*small voice* I liked the Lost ending. Vincent that beautiful dog.

 I'm not convinced I'll buy Sunday's ending so well given the reasons you just stated and there's no cute dogs to provide consoling.

The Lost ending had me full-on sobbing. Any show that manages to get that kind of emotional reaction out of its viewers did something right.

From the spoilers, I don't expect I'll cry at the GOT finale, but Jon reuniting with Tormund and Ghost might just do the trick.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Eyes High

[kittykat]

17 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

My conclusion is that D&D can write great relationships, romantic or otherwise. I think with Jon/Dany, though, everything was just so slightly off, like Dany goading Jon into riding the dragon in 8x01, and I think in retrospect that that was intentional. It was a very difficult needle to thread, though. How can you simultaneously sell the audience completely on Jon and Dany's love for each other while also showing the cracks in the foundation that will cause everything to collapse?

That is probably why many of us are disappointed in the ratio of spectacle to actual substance.  I know it's easy to hate on the D&D but their writing excelled in all the small moments of those you listed above.  The Tyrion/Jaime and Arya/Sandor farewells were the best moments of The Bells because it reminded us of those small moments, the heart amongst the horror.  If D&D had towed that line better and as many have said, had those small scenes with Jon and Dany, it wouldn't be a perfect season but one with a little more care for our characters.

[HighwayFlower]

Jon’s character totally went from “I’ll take a second helping” to “no thanks, I’m good”

Except for Arya, I really don’t care what happens to any of them, and that’s really a shame considering how invested I used to be. 

[Eyes High]

1 minute ago, kittykat said:

That is probably why many of us are disappointed in the ratio of spectacle to actual substance.  I know it's easy to hate on the D&D but their writing excelled in all the small moments of those you listed above.  The Tyrion/Jaime and Arya/Sandor farewells were the best moments of The Bells because it reminded us of those small moments, the heart amongst the horror.  If D&D had towed that line better and as many have said, had those small scenes with Jon and Dany, it wouldn't be a perfect season but one with a little more care for our characters.

Yes, absolutely! It may sound cheesy, but at its heart, the show is nothing without love: the love between a tough-minded pirate sister and her eternal fuckup of a beloved baby brother, between a scarred, sad warrior and his terrifying surrogate daughter, between a sweet, purehearted squire and the brusque, equally purehearted knight he wants to emulate, between a fucked-up golden boy big brother and the disabled little brother who always worshipped him as his only friend and protector, between an outrageous wildling and the little crow who won his respect and his friendship, etc.

Without these relationships, without love, it's just, well, fire and blood.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

...I dunno. Apart from King Bran, it all works for me. That leaves me in the minority, I realize. I now see what John Bradley was talking about in terms of "satisfying," where he compared S8 to the Red Wedding. All of this fits and feels right to me (apart from King Bran), even if it's painful and tragic, maybe even because it's painful and tragic. A lot of it feels brutally logical to me, even Dany's dark turn. 

I don’t think most people object to the character endings in concept, only in execution.

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

I just was just never convinced by this romance on screen. Other people criticize the writing all day long but the Jon/Dany "romance" is like some sacred cow that can't be slaughtered?

Nobody was arguing that their romance was well-written.  But you were suggesting, seemingly, that it was deliberately underwhelming, as opposed to being underwhelming for the same reason all the other stuff is.

[Umbelina]

19 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

OAN I think that if Jon’s ending is to go north with the free people, he will eventually be happy.

EXCEPT.

Jon is dead.  He died.

They left out Lady Stoneheart, but the used Beric to show Jon's future.

He will complete whatever tasks he has left (I think one task was rallying the troops to defeat the NK, and in the book?  That may well be his only task.)

Since he's still alive though?  He has something else to do before he dies for real.  Logically, that would be killing Dany, the mass murderer, and it could have been wonderful, if they'd been given scenes to make ANYONE believe they loved each other.

Him walking off to the North and reuniting with Ghost and Tormand?  Makes no sense at all by story canon (Beric) UNLESS there really is a scene that implies the whole NK/WW stuff may be happening again, and it will be his job, eventually, to do it all again, defeat them all again.

Could that happen?  Maybe.

We saw very little of the Children of the Forest, we may not know all the magic they conjured with the NK.  (Hell there isn't even a NK in the books is there?)

So, if that scene that was spoiled that shows evidence of ICE still in embryonic state in the North is true?    I would expect to see Drogon with his/her eggs on Valyria as well.

Which?  Would make Bran a great choice, since he could keep an eye on both FIRE and ICE for the future. 

[MrsR]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

EXCEPT.

Jon is dead.  He died.

They left out Lady Stoneheart, but the used Beric to show Jon's future.

He will complete whatever tasks he has left (I think one task was rallying the troops to defeat the NK, and in the book?  That may well be his only task.)

Since he's still alive though?  He has something else to do before he dies for real.  Logically, that would be killing Dany, the mass murderer, and it could have been wonderful, if they'd been given scenes to make ANYONE believe they loved each other.

Him walking off to the North and reuniting with Ghost and Tormand?  Makes no sense at all by story canon (Beric) UNLESS there really is a scene that implies the whole NK/WW stuff may be happening again, and it will be his job, eventually, to do it all again, defeat them all again.

Could that happen?  Maybe.

We saw very little of the Children of the Forest, we may not know all the magic they conjured with the NK.  (Hell there isn't even a NK in the books is there?)

So, if that scene that was spoiled that shows evidence of ICE still in embryonic state in the North is true?    I would expect to see Drogon with his/her eggs on Valyria as well.

Which?  Would make Bran a great choice, since he could keep an eye on both FIRE and ICE for the future. 

Love. And more love.

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

I just said to a friend today that this is the only scene they ever had that came off as somewhat romantic. I do think it was more than a lack of actor chemistry, though - there was no real romantic story written for them. 

I mean people were shipping Jonsa after a scene about kidney pies. So I do think chemistry has something to do with it. But I agree there was no real romantic story written for Jon and Dany. 

[Raachel2008]

4 hours ago, Stallion12 said:

True, but John going north and bran being king will piss people off.

I don't think people will be pissed off by Jon going North, but the King Bran thing will cause a riot.

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Bookwise Jon fell in love with the non-violent qualities that Ygritte had, specifically her singing. I'm not really sure what Jon would like about Dany, she's been absolutely insufferable. And violent. And selfish. And (literally) entitled. 

But in the show he fell for a feisty personality, dry humor, strong will, along other traits - many or them shared with Dany in some level. I don't mind the Jon/Dany thing, I just don't think they are the best actors on screen and it shows in most of their scenes. 

5 hours ago, funnygirl said:

I still don't understand how Drogon doesn't light Jon up upon finding Dany dead. Or that Grey Worm and the unsullied don't kill him on the spot when he turns himself in. 

Whatever. 

I guess Drogon wouldn't kill him because he is part Targ. 

I'm not sure why Grey Worm doesn't kill Jon, maybe he knows Jon is now the king and don't want to start a war with whoever is left to fight?

3 hours ago, stagmania said:

Uh, I loved Ygritte and that romance, but she was a straight up murderer who was killed trying to slaughter Jon's people. Weird how there's room for nuance with some characters but not others.

Ro be fair Jon's people always wanted to slaughter her people, so...

[Umbelina]

Also, the NK could have well left a couple of Kraster's kids (those immune to fire) hidden away in the far north, just in case he did die.

Jon walking happily off to the North makes no sense at all, unless there is something else for him to do.

Also, those scenes, Jon with the evidence of WW, and Drogon with eggs flying Dany's body home to them?  Would be all GGI, or nearly all.  They could have kept that group strictly controlled and monitored.

Now I'm wondering...

[SeanC]

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Also, the NK could have well left a couple of Kraster's kids (those immune to fire) hidden away in the far north, just in case he did die.

They would have been killed when the Night King died, same as all the other White Walkers.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

They would have been killed when the Night King died, same as all the other White Walkers.

but...

MAGIC! 

😉

Writers can do anything when MAGIC is on the table.

If Jon really walks off into the sunset?  By show canon?  HE HAS TO HAVE SOMETHING ELSE TO DO, right?

So, that made me think of that one spoiler...perhaps we dismissed it too fast.  Combine that with Drogon carrying Dany's body off, and Drogon going to Valyria before?  It could work.

Or the writers just blew off show canon and decided Jon + Ghost = bittersweet.

Which?  Is seriously stupid.  Dude is dead.

[YaddaYadda]

26 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I guess Drogon wouldn't kill him because he is part Targ. 

It sucks for the Targs who were immolated by dragons during the Dance of the Dragons, then.

I don't think anyone should be looking for an explanation as to why Drogon doesn't do anything to Jon. Drogon seems to hate the Iron Throne more than he hates Jon.

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, HighwayFlower said:

None of this paints Jon in a very good light. He was willing to bang her, and if it wasn’t love I guess he is shallow after all. He offered her no security when she desperately needed it, and even if the aunt part grossed him out, he could have showed compassion as a caring friend, and now he will shank her and run off to be a lumberjack....  basically. 

So banging someone makes you shallow? Even if you don't think he loves her (and I think we are supposed to think he does), it is clear that he cares about her - as a friend, an ex-lover, a fellow Targ, whatever. He showed compassion in the way he deal with her. I'm not sure how he could show more compassion to her when he found out she is his aunt. He should keep sleeping with her even though it is against his believes? Incest may not be a big deal for the Targaryens, but it is for the Starks (and most Westerosi).

And, I'm sorry, once Dany decided to be ruthless and kill everyone, and rule as a tyrant, what is his options? Go with it? I think it is a very very very hard spot they put Jon, 

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

Yeah I think that's a fair way to spin it since they clearly still want the audience to view him as a hero. You'd think if they knew he was ending up as Hand they'd have him be successful or right about anything in the last couple seasons.

I think it is clear that from starting on season 6 on, D&D didn't try to make things work. Ok, you have 26 episode to tell the whole story, but it is possible. Because as much as it was a screen time problem, it was also a WRITING problem. You don't have screentime for write the epic love story between Dany and Jon? Cut some of the dragon flying and write a couple of scenes where they talk something silly and flirt. You want to write Tyrion sticking to the right thing and being awesome? Write it in a way that you don't undermine the character.

Easier: you want to write Tyrion finding Jaime under the rubble? Don't write an entire building falling on top him. Unblock that exit that was closed by rocks and make the whole thing crash while they are under the arch. Yes, it would still go against the laws of physics that those bricks/stones wouldn't cover him completely, but it would be better.

Small things here and there would have made the whole thing much better.

[Raachel2008]

2 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

It sucks for the Targs who were immolated by dragons during the Dance of the Dragons, then.

I don't think anyone should be looking for an explanation as to why Drogon doesn't do anything to Jon. Drogon seems to hate the Iron Throne more than he hates Jon.

I was thinking show, not book. In the context of the books it is pretty believable, specially if Drogon doesn't see it. How would he know it was Jon?