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Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

Eyes High

By Eyes High
in Game Of Thrones

Meredith Quill
Message added by Meredith Quill

Advisory: This topic is for S8 Spoilers & Spec. If your post predominantly concerns book comparisons or a character's past season actions it will be removed. 

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Meredith Quill
Meredith Quill

Enjoy: I laughed. 🤣

spaceghostess
spaceghostess

^This.^ Thank you.  Months ago I posted that both Dany and Jon were at the top of my death list, but it never occurred to me that (a) she'd die crazy or (b) he'd kill her because she was crazy. Y

dragonsbite
dragonsbite

oh thank god. y'all have stopped arguing about Sansa.

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Soup333

Soup333

12 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Which Stark women? Catelyn, murdered after watching her son, daughter in law and unborn grandchild killed, as well as lot of her friends? Sansa, raped by Ramsay, used by Joffrey and Littlefinger? Arya, who saw he father executed when she was a child, was beaten and made blind by a assassin who trains children to be murders? 

I’m sorry but all women in this show suffered tons, and half of the men, too. Brienne got it “easier” than most of them. 

I was speaking only of this season. But yes, and the two daughters will survive according to the leaks. Brienne as well. Sansa and Arya will finally get what they wanted. 

stagmania

stagmania

1 hour ago, Couver said:

I hope the common people at least don't buy this smoke show. But given the lack of focus on any story details this season I'm sure we will never even see their reaction.

The common people have never had a real POV on the show. They're just props to be trotted out when they want to illuminate something about the highborn characters.

29 minutes ago, Affogato said:

 I also am fairly sure, although I could be wrong, that none of them have named themselves feminist (except in a general support of women’s rights, anyway).  The books/show are indeed about power but not necessarily about women and power  

The show absolutely played on feminist sentiment in both the writing and marketing. Khaleesi became a fan favorite for a reason, and it's largely because they consistently wrote her as a survivor toppling patriarchal systems of oppression - becoming the first woman to lead a Khalasar, freeing the slaves from their male masters, "All men must die." "But we are not men.", burning the Khals - just to name the most obvious examples. They don't get to do that for 7 seasons and then pull the rug out from under the audience without consequences.

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Umbelina

Umbelina

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I wonder if the issue of succession will be raised at all with Bran. since that was such a big concern with Dany. Would Sansa's kids be his heirs? Would they just vote on another king/queen when he dies? Or would Bran go full God Emperor and merge himself with a weirwood as the previous 3ER did to prolong his lifespan?

They took a page from the Free Folk and VOTED a leader in.

They chose wisely, someone who can't have heirs AND someone who is beyond personal greed and ego, someone that has the job of saving the human race.

In GRRM's hands this all could have been wonderfully done...from Winter to Dany to Jon to Bran and everyone else on screen.

This is a mess because of the rushing, and I agree, none of it makes sense because they didn't lay the groundwork for it to make sense, especially for people who don't understand (still) that GRRM is writing against war, among other things, and that Bronn was his voice against so-called "nobility" and did it beautifully when he pointed out that all of their illustrious forefathers were men just like him.  Killers who profited from war.

3 hours ago, Bali said:

So, if this ending is true, does that mean that Bran will FINALLY say something other than a monotone "I'm not Bran. I'm the 3 eyed raven." Because it would be nice for him to have to learn another line. I'm sick of that one.

I'm sure he would love to learn more lines.

D&D don't believe in dialogue this season, not for anyone (except Peter and Lena of course.)  They did an action series for the finale.  No insight into characters, motivations, needs, decision making were needed. 

Assholes.

They really should have turned this show over to people who weren't burnt out.

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Umbelina

Umbelina

(edited)
14 minutes ago, Indi said:

But that is a problem, isn't it? What happens, after he dies? Will he choose another 3-eyed raven, before it happens? Or is he immortal?

They vote again.  Or even before he dies.  Who knows?

The 3 ER so far in the tale doesn't die, just moves into another body.

6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The point of having heirs and a line of succession is to avoid a succession crisis.

Yes, we all know that.

However, the fact that they VOTED could mean they are taking baby steps toward democracy, or simply having a commonwealth.  It's not out of the blue in Westeros, the Free Folk have for ages.

ETA

Which would mean the wheel is nearly broken, no more inherited power, at least not for "King" if that's what they call him.  Which?  I still doubt.

Edited by Umbelina
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stagmania

stagmania

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

However, the fact that they VOTED could mean they are taking baby steps toward democracy, or simply having a commonwealth.  It's not out of the blue in Westeros, the Free Folk have for ages.

If I'm understanding correctly, the only people who voted are this small insular group of highborn people who were choosing among their friends, right? Like, they already appointed themselves as the power in the realm and the only real debate was what specific role they would each play. I think calling that a vote or anything in the neighborhood of democracy is extremely charitable.

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Constantinople

Constantinople

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, we all know that.

Renly didn't.

And what's the point of democracy if Bran is king?

Aside from being bait for the Night King -- which was never adequately explained in my opinion -- he's largely been useless.

Who or whatever rules the Seven Kingdoms will have real concerns and problems, that need real answers, not cryptic non-replies such as The things we do for love

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Eyes High

Eyes High

  • Author
(edited)
13 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Renly didn't.

And what's the point of democracy if Bran is king?

Aside from being bait for the Night King -- which was never adequately explained in my opinion -- he's largely been useless.

Who or whatever rules the Seven Kingdoms will have real concerns and problems, that need real answers, not cryptic non-replies such as The things we do for love

It seems as if it's Tyrion who will be doing the ruling, so any "real concerns and problems" will be his affair. Bran will be chilling and warging out.

There's not really much to get excited about in the democracy department, since the council chose Bran, not Tyrion, and Tyrion will rule (and I'm guessing only Bronn is going to feel good about that, given the general anti-Lannister sentiment).

Edited by Eyes High
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Umbelina

Umbelina

(edited)
12 minutes ago, stagmania said:

If I'm understanding correctly, the only people who voted are this small insular group of highborn people who were choosing among their friends, right? Like, they already appointed themselves as the power in the realm and the only real debate was what specific role they would each play. I think calling that a vote or anything in the neighborhood of democracy is extremely charitable.

It's a start.  A giant tree begins from a seed.

Bronn and Davos were not highborn, neither were a bunch of others in the room.  Who knows how this will really play out.

King, President, whatever, it's the word they use for leader.

I admit completely I am jumping to the fleshed out version of this so I finally have an end to the books, 😉 In GRRM's capable hands this could work out well (and the battles wouldn't be idiotic, and Winter probably lasts at least a few months, etc. etc.) 

I agree that the show version of all of this makes no sense, and I have little hope it will when watched.

Their only goal was:  COOL visuals!  Battles!  Sword Fights!  End this mother fucker so we can move on! 

They have skipped the heart of this, skipped logic, skipped dialogue, skipped even making the "love" between Dani and Jon seem real, skipped the should-be fascinating conversation between the Starks after Jon's reveal, skipped basic common sense. 

It could have been a wonderful end, but they didn't care enough to give us that.  At least we HAVE one though.

12 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Renly didn't.

And what's the point of democracy if Bran is king?

Aside from being bait for the Night King -- which was never adequately explained in my opinion -- he's largely been useless.

Who or whatever rules the Seven Kingdoms will have real concerns and problems, that need real answers, not cryptic non-replies such as The things we do for love

Yes, the writers took great stuff, complicated and emotional stuff, and swept it all aside for visuals and CGI, and stunts, and made an action movie out of the final season.

I agree. 

Bran stuff above, I agree they also made him boring and didn't explain him, or anything else, such as Varys and Tyrion eating stupid pills.  The explanation is that interfered with their mad and arbitrary rush to be done with this series, and refusal to hand it off to less burned out showrunners.

Edited by Umbelina
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DarkRaichu

DarkRaichu

(edited)
19 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Who or whatever rules the Seven Kingdoms will have real concerns and problems, that need real answers, not cryptic non-replies such as The things we do for love

I thought the quote was "not fighting what we hate, but saving what we love**" as she risks her life stopping someone from heroically sacrifices himself to stop the bad guys...

...

...

😄 😄 😄

** Quote from a movie directed by another who likes to subvert viewers' expectations

Edited by DarkRaichu
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Eyes High

Eyes High

  • Author
10 minutes ago, Indi said:

The Bran stuff is still too weird. How would he rule? He doesn't seem to be present most of the time.

I'm less weirded out by King Bran than Tyrion somehow successfully persuading a bunch of lords and ladies to vote him in. What's the pitch, other than "He'll keep the North in the Seven Kingdoms and he doesn't want anything"?

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yowsah1

yowsah1

(edited)
15 hours ago, MrsR said:

Really?
 

Why did you expect a happy ending?

I didn't, but plenty of other people did, and geez Louise, what the hell do you call, "Evilest Evil That Ever Eviled Dany gets conveniently shanked, Tyrion gets to be Hand despite the fact he has conclusively proven he is completely incapable of being one but the fans will dig it so hey, all the Dothraki and Unsullied just shrug their shoulders and leave, Drogon flies off into the sunset, every single major Stark gets their innermost hearts desire (Jon goes back to the North, Sansa gets to be Lady of Winterfell, Arya goes off on adventures) and ELECTIVE MONARCHY COMES TO WESTEROS" except a RIDICULOUSLY PAT HAPPY ENDING?!

Edited by yowsah1
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absnow54

absnow54

11 minutes ago, Indi said:

The Bran stuff is still too weird. How would he rule? He doesn't seem to be present most of the time.

I just imagine them gathering for council meetings and Bran flatly saying "I'm going to go now" as his eyes roll back, and Tyrion just awkwardly going "Well, until he comes back then..."

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Umbelina

Umbelina

(edited)
19 minutes ago, Indi said:

The Bran stuff is still too weird. How would he rule? He doesn't seem to be present most of the time.

He won't rule.  He will oversee.  He will stop them from making horrid mistakes, but leave the day to day stuff such as how to feed what's left of the people,  to humans.  He's super-spy on steroids too, as well as wikipedia with visuals.

He could, for example, foresee war, and informing them, be able to stop it in it's tracks.  He can foresee good or bad growing seasons, and tell them so they can prepare.  He can answer any questions they have so they can make good decisions.

8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I'm less weirded out by King Bran than Tyrion somehow successfully persuading a bunch of lords and ladies to vote him in. What's the pitch, other than "He'll keep the North in the Seven Kingdoms and he doesn't want anything"?

He wants one thing.  Survival of the human species as a whole.  Right about now, a hell of a lot of people would settle for that. 

ETA, remember, in the books, it's highly doubtful that Winter only lasted one night, and the NK beelined to Winterfell and left the rest of the Kingdoms alone.  So Westeros will be devastated right now, electing someone who stopped the NK by being bait (which I think probably does happen in the books) is just one example of Bran's usefulness. 

Edited by Umbelina
needed a comma so Bran wouldn't be feeding human flesh to the rest of the people
stagmania

stagmania

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

He wants one thing.  Survival of the human species as a whole.  Right about now, a hell of a lot of people would settle for that. 

Does he? Because that is inconsistent with his attempt to help his sister, genocidal maniac, free. Protector of the human species, unless it involves his family.

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Umbelina

Umbelina

1 minute ago, stagmania said:

Does he? Because that is inconsistent with his attempt to help his sister, genocidal maniac, free. Protector of the human species, unless it involves his family.

He doesn't care about individuals.  Ayra never killed innocent people, she was, if anything, the hand of justice.  She was never a "genocidal maniac" in any sense.

YaddaYadda

YaddaYadda

(edited)
9 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

I just imagine them gathering for council meetings and Bran flatly saying "I'm going to go now" as his eyes roll back, and Tyrion just awkwardly going "Well, until he comes back then..."

Putting Bran in charge makes Tyrion the defacto king if he is the Hand. It's Tyrion who will rule the land, not Bran. 

Edited by YaddaYadda
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stagmania

stagmania

(edited)
2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He doesn't care about individuals.  Ayra never killed innocent people, she was, if anything, the hand of justice.  She was never a "genocidal maniac" in any sense.

I'm talking about Cersei. Tyrion's sister. Were your comments about Bran? If so, my bad - you were responding to a comment about Tyrion so I thought that's who you meant.

Edited by stagmania
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Affogato

Affogato

4 hours ago, Soup333 said:

The idea that Drogon loses his mother, brothers and everyone that ever cared for him is really kinda heartbreaking. 

I also have concerns about the slave cities Daenerys liberated being able to remain free from slavery after she’s gone. But who am I kidding? No one cares about those people. 

The fate of the slave cities is concerning. 

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Umbelina

Umbelina

1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

Putting Bran in charge makes Tyrion the defacto king if he is the Hand. It's Tyrion who will rule the land, not Bran. 

Except he's probably not stupid, since his stupidity was needed to fast forward this story.

Tyrion was probably the best "hand of the King" Westeros ever had (book Tyrion) and now he's lived as a slave and among the poor.  By the time the books get there, he could still have skills in diplomacy, and he's always cared about all people, not just rich people, so he would be a good choice.

We just have to wipe out the whole ridiculous fast forwarding Dumb and Dumber did to get them to this point.

ITA that in the show it will be nonsense.

I really am looking at this more as a book answer (FINALLY!) and I can see how GRRM will get here, and it will probably be satisfying and a good, bittersweet, end.

Although since Jon is already dead?  I seriously doubt he chills off to the North to be with his wolf and the Free Folk.  The rules (Beric, and in the book probably Lady Stoneheart as well) call for him to complete whatever he was given a second life to do, and then die.  That deed will probably be, taking down the by then tyrant and murderer, Dany.  (Because I do think she burns KL)

So, there is a show discussion here, but also a book one.  I'm focusing on the book one, because the show is bullshit.

Heathrowe

Heathrowe

14 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

I just imagine them gathering for council meetings and Bran flatly saying "I'm going to go now" as his eyes roll back, and Tyrion just awkwardly going "Well, until he comes back then..."

Honestly, it sounds very similar to my current boss.

I am really hoping this is all false. I mean, I was hook, line, and sinker that Jaime would kill Cersei. Crossing my fingers this is a redirect.

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Couver

Couver

48 minutes ago, stagmania said:

If I'm understanding correctly, the only people who voted are this small insular group of highborn people who were choosing among their friends, right? Like, they already appointed themselves as the power in the realm and the only real debate was what specific role they would each play. I think calling that a vote or anything in the neighborhood of democracy is extremely charitable.

Plus the North gets to keep a highborn ruler. Nothing's really changed.

Sansa actually really lucks out in the end. Most other highborn houses are gone in the end. She's the only one with a storied family history left in power. And she has strong ties to both Bran and Tyrion. And the show hasn't shown her as benevolent in the least.

It's very easy to imagine years of intrigue and power grabbing if/when Bran's time is up.

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Umbelina

Umbelina

(edited)
12 minutes ago, Affogato said:
5 hours ago, Soup333 said:

The idea that Drogon loses his mother, brothers and everyone that ever cared for him is really kinda heartbreaking. 

I also have concerns about the slave cities Daenerys liberated being able to remain free from slavery after she’s gone. But who am I kidding? No one cares about those people. 

The fate of the slave cities is concerning. 

I really think Drogon has already laid eggs.  Back on  Valyria.

In the books, the slave cities are still a mess, IIRC, Dany is a better conqueror than ruler.  That said, D and D could well do what the spoilers say and send the Unsullied back there to continue Dany's work.  Although, their lives haven't changed much since she freed them, so honestly, how well could that go?  Also, where do these magical plot devise ships to take them and the Dothraki back come from?

Edited by Umbelina
?
Callista

Callista

(edited)
23 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

I just imagine them gathering for council meetings and Bran flatly saying "I'm going to go now" as his eyes roll back, and Tyrion just awkwardly going "Well, until he comes back then..."

Then Bran comes back and says to Tyrion: "You were so beautiful in your white wedding dress..."

Edited by Callista
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Spartan Girl

Spartan Girl

2 hours ago, Soup333 said:

I cannot wait until the after interview where D&D explain how it just “didn’t feel right” to have these character arcs amount to shit. Literally can’t wait. 

Has it been discussed anywhere how hard this must have been for Emilia? If she’d had any hint her character would end up like this we’d have known by now. She wouldn’t have been stunned into a two-hour stupor when she got the scripts. For someone who identified with her character as much as she did it must have been crushing to see/act this final season. 

On the Dany thread here its been discussed. According to interviews she gave before the season started she was so upset that she had to take a three-hour walk and had a few drinks (but the alcohol was more of a depressant so it didn't help).

Poor Emilia.

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Umbelina

Umbelina

3 minutes ago, Couver said:

Plus the North gets to keep a highborn ruler. Nothing's really changed.

Sansa actually really lucks out in the end. Most other highborn houses are gone in the end. She's the only one with a storied family history left in power. And she has strong ties to both Bran and Tyrion. And the show hasn't shown her as benevolent in the least.

It's very easy to imagine years of intrigue and power grabbing if/when Bran's time is up.

For crying out loud, it's not Sansa's fault that Dany fails and dies.  Geesh. 

The 3ER does not die.

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Eyes High

Eyes High

  • Author
(edited)
17 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Putting Bran in charge makes Tyrion the defacto king if he is the Hand. It's Tyrion who will rule the land, not Bran. 

And this is what I don't get. Everyone except for Bronn hates or at least distrusts the Lannisters and has wanted them gone for ages, and they're all fine with letting a Lannister rule them all? Again? It's not going to take them long to realize that Bran is little more than a puppet, if they haven't already, and then what? I doubt the Northerners or the Valemen will feel too great about King Bran if they know that a Lannister is the one making all the decisions. Sansa at least already knows the score.

5 minutes ago, Callista said:

Then Bran comes back and says to Tyrion: "You were so beautiful in your white wedding dress..."

Ha! I imagine Bran busting out humiliating anecdotes at the worst possible times during council meetings.

Edited by Eyes High
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Nashville

Nashville

59 minutes ago, stagmania said:

If I'm understanding correctly, the only people who voted are this small insular group of highborn people who were choosing among their friends, right? Like, they already appointed themselves as the power in the realm and the only real debate was what specific role they would each play. I think calling that a vote or anything in the neighborhood of democracy is extremely charitable.

Actually, I believe the applicable term is ‘oligarchy’.

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Umbelina

Umbelina

(edited)
4 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Actually, I believe the applicable term is ‘oligarchy’.

Yeah, but how do Bronn and Davos figure into that?  They may be "nobles" now, but for most of their lives they were not.  For all we know everyone left alive votes, that room isn't filled with nothing but nobles, because most of them are already dead.

Edited by Umbelina
Portia4844

Portia4844

16 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Except he's probably not stupid, since his stupidity was needed to fast forward this story.

Tyrion was probably the best "hand of the King" Westeros ever had (book Tyrion) and now he's lived as a slave and among the poor.  By the time the books get there, he could still have skills in diplomacy, and he's always cared about all people, not just rich people, so he would be a good choice.

We just have to wipe out the whole ridiculous fast forwarding Dumb and Dumber did to get them to this point.

ITA that in the show it will be nonsense.

I really am looking at this more as a book answer (FINALLY!) and I can see how GRRM will get here, and it will probably be satisfying and a good, bittersweet, end.

Although since Jon is already dead?  I seriously doubt he chills off to the North to be with his wolf and the Free Folk.  The rules (Beric, and in the book probably Lady Stoneheart as well) call for him to complete whatever he was given a second life to do, and then die.  That deed will probably be, taking down the by then tyrant and murderer, Dany.  (Because I do think she burns KL)

So, there is a show discussion here, but also a book one.  I'm focusing on the book one, because the show is bullshit.

Bran manipulating events so that Jon kills Dany and then dies would work.  Maybe Bran will remind him of his warging abilities and gives him time to hop into Ghost.  Then he gets to go to the North and reunite with Tormund.  It's not quite like petting Ghost but close enough.  

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Oscirus

Oscirus

(edited)
4 hours ago, stagmania said:

Does he? Because that is inconsistent with his attempt to help his sister, genocidal maniac, free. Protector of the human species, unless it involves his family.

He only came up with that plan because he knew that was the only way to motivate Jamie to ring the bells and end the bloodshed while putting dany off the throne

Edited by Oscirus
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Keely

Keely

13 hours ago, Minneapple said:

I agree, this is Martin’s ending. D&D just got there a lot faster and clunkier. I can actually buy Bran as king if GRRM ever finishes his books. Here? It makes no sense.

I actually don't think the speed hurts them on the Bran score, so much they haven't done anything with the character. He's just there, a Stark 3-eyed Raven.  They haven't attempted to show us anything real about Bran beyond those 2 points. I'd wager he's the one character on the show most people are indifferent about.

13 hours ago, rmontro said:

I know the Starks are the heroes of the story obviously, but it kind of annoys me the way they all come up smelling like a rose at the end, when so many others have lost so much.  (...snip)

Same. It's my own fault, but I feel a bit bamboozled. While Ned's death set the no one is safe tone, it also increased my interest tenfold. The Stark's are a dime a dozen in the fantasy genre. I then erroneously thought the story would play out differently and not end up like the vast majority of Stark-types that have come before. 

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Umbelina

Umbelina

(edited)
3 minutes ago, Keely said:

I actually don't think the speed hurts them on the Bran score, so much they haven't done anything with the character. He's just there, a Stark 3-eyed Raven.  They haven't attempted to show us anything real about Bran beyond those 2 points. I'd wager he's the one character on the show most people are indifferent about.

Same. It's my own fault, but I feel a bit bamboozled. While Ned's death set the no one is safe tone, it also increased my interest tenfold. The Stark's are a dime a dozen in the fantasy genre. I then erroneously thought the story would play out differently and not end up like the vast majority of Stark-types that have come before. 

Oh it hurt them, and hurt the viewers too!

They didn't want to flesh out Bran, and to not bother to do that, WHEN HE IS THE "WINNER" OF THE GAME OF THRONES?  Unforgivable.

Here is just one idea.  When his eyes go white, WE go with him, we see his visions and what he's doing.

Here is another.  DIALOGUE. 

Edited by Umbelina
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Affogato

Affogato

(edited)
1 hour ago, stagmania said:

The common people have never had a real POV on the show. They're just props to be trotted out when they want to illuminate something about the highborn characters.

The show absolutely played on feminist sentiment in both the writing and marketing. Khaleesi became a fan favorite for a reason, and it's largely because they consistently wrote her as a survivor toppling patriarchal systems of oppression - becoming the first woman to lead a Khalasar, freeing the slaves from their male masters, "All men must die." "But we are not men.", burning the Khals - just to name the most obvious examples. They don't get to do that for 7 seasons and then pull the rug out from under the audience without consequences.

I think that Dany’s arc could easily have been written for a man, boy to start.  Exact story with some minor changes to some of the small obvious issues that would need to be changed. Drogo could have adopted the weirdly white haired boy, death of a father, etc. 

If you are inclined to take the feminist tack—that Dany is a champion for woman battling systemic sexism—then sure, you are disappointed. I suspect she is simply a woman who makes a play to be a hero and a conquerer and ultimately fails. This isn’t an awful representation for women. It just isn’t about the battle against systemic sexism/misogyny and, as is often noticed, racism. Honestly ot should have perhaps acknowledged some of those things  more, especially the tv show. 

i watched the early dvds, stopped watching and caught up recently.  Not a hardcore fan, enjoyed the books. Big gap, not hugely clued into marketing or fan reactions.  They could have rode the feminist angle hard and I wouldn’t know it. But it seems possible that fans made assumptions. 

Edited by Affogato
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Keely

Keely

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oh it hurt them, and hurt the viewers too!

They didn't want to flesh out Bran, and to not bother to do that, WHEN HE IS THE "WINNER" OF THE GAME OF THRONES?  Unforgivable.

Okay, yes, it hurt them there! But my point is, in Bran's case, he is much more hurt by the fact they did nothing with him. You can write fast paced stories and have things like conversations and interactions that tell who characters are and what they are thinking. These writer's are just really, really bad at it.

That they tell you why a character did this or that after each episode - because it is not apparent or shown in the show - is some of the worst storytelling I have ever seen. 

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Umbelina

Umbelina

In case I didn't make this pretty clear?

I am in no way happy with this ending or this season ON THE SHOW.

I am pretty happy with this ending for the books, because I can "see" how GRRM will get to this ending, and it doesn't surprise me.  I think with everyone having POV chapters, we will understand what the show completely failed to provide, motivations, context, and fleshed out characters who act in consistent ways.  People can be both heroes and villains, depending on circumstances, people can make errors, be emotional, be selfish, be altruistic, be romantic, be a cynic, all in the space of a lifetime or a few years.  GRRM will write it (if he ever does) so that it does make sense, and is beautiful and ugly both. 

The showrunners?  Failed.  The story doesn't fail for me though, in skilled hands, it will work.

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Meredith Quill
Message added by Meredith Quill

Advisory: This topic is for S8 Spoilers & Spec. If your post predominantly concerns book comparisons or a character's past season actions it will be removed. 

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