Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Stallion12]

2 minutes ago, Orwell1984 said:

Not sure if I believe the latest spoilers that Jon reserects Dany, especially with the kiss of life.  It seems a little too disney with the trope of true loves kiss (even if the result is Jon dies).  Not sure grrm would go this way. 

Berlic does die creating ls in the books, so I could see it.

[nikma]

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

This whole season broke Daenerys it looks like so far. 🤦🏻‍♀️

Yeah. It doesn't feel fair at all. When you look at everything she has done. It's really sad and tragic.

But I stand by what I said, GRRM is brave to do this and it's such a shame we will never get ADOS. I would love to read Dany's POV now.

[aprilbabe]

20 minutes ago, Wouter said:

The supposed detail in other (f)leaks of Drogon taking Dany's body away on the one hand (why add this detail if nothing happens to the body afterwards?), and Friki's continued belief in the trial on the other hand, do square with this version and it would also mean Dany may get to be queen after all.  Since Beric resurrected Catelyn in the books, Jon resurrecting Dany would not be impossible and it would explain why Martin had him killed in the first place - Jon would then be the most tragic figure, I suppose.

3

This is what always kept sticking out to me about that leak. Dorgon takes Dany where?  I highly doubt we don't see where they go and Drogon flying off is the end. So clearly there more to the story that hasn't been leaked.

[nikma]

Maybe to Old Valyria.

[GraceK]

I am excited to see Greyworms reaction. Shits gonna go DOWN next week. This dude just took on zombies....The unsullied and Drogon fucking up shit is gonna be delicious to watch.

Edited May 5, 2019 by GraceK

[Wouter]

6 minutes ago, nikma said:

Starks being the Lannisters of the last season is also interesting ending. We wanted them to be powerful House, but now that they are they are just as corrupted as anyone else.

This feels like GRRM to me.

There is no indication that the Starks suddenly become Tywin Lannister. Just last week, Arya and Bran saved the world. 

It's still Cersei who is the big bad here, along with Euron and other lackeys.

[Umbelina]

19 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Jon would not let Arya burn. He did, however, collect hostages from the wildlings with the apparent intent to kill them if the other wildlings didn't keep their word.

What does that have to do with anything?

Jon won't be sitting on the throne either. 

They are all villains and all heroes, as GRRM said, people are a mix of things.

I wasn't rooting for a "winner" of that throne, I was rooting for an ending I could live with, and frankly, I can with live with this one.  NO throne, and with almost all of the warmongers finally dead, no more war, perhaps the hope of peace, especially with Bran able to see pitfalls that could hurt the human race, and avoid them, as head of a council. 

5 minutes ago, nikma said:

Starks being the Lannisters of the last season is also interesting ending. We wanted them to be powerful House, but now that they are they are just as corrupted as anyone else.

This feels like GRRM to me.

I wasn't rooting for any of the families.  I liked certain people at certain times, not so much at other times.  The Starks did some stupid things, especially Ned.  So did others.

There are no perfect heroes here, there never were.

5 minutes ago, Orwell1984 said:

Not sure if I believe the latest spoilers that Jon reserects Dany, especially with the kiss of life.  It seems a little too disney with the trope of true loves kiss (even if the result is Jon dies).  Not sure grrm would go this way. 

God I hope that isn't true. 

It would screw up the ending completely.

[ShellsandCheese]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

Dany failing at the end because she became corrupted by power is like Frodo's and Thorin's stories in LOTR and Hobbit. 

But that’s the whole thing, there hasn’t been a build up to her being so corrupted by power that it’s that specifically that causes her to fail or falter. 

Someone who is only interested in power for powers sake, would have attacked King’s Landing with her three dragons when she still had the backing of Dorne, The Iron Islands, and High Garden. She didn’t. 

And I’m sorry but a few throw away lines about her potentially being “mad” like are father don’t count. It’s cheap and lazy. I’m someone who doesn’t expect there to be a throne in the end - and I certainly didn’t expect Dany to be in it on the off chance there was. What I didn’t expect was for someone who has been characterized as not mad, willing to help others, willing to make sacrifices, and willing to learn from her mistakes to suddenly have to be out down like a mad dog. 

[SimoneS]

8 minutes ago, aprilbabe said:

This is what always kept sticking out to me about that leak. Dorgon takes Dany where?  I highly doubt we don't see where they go and Drogon flying off is the end. So clearly there more to the story that hasn't been leaked.

Drogon will likely take Dany to Valyria. It was where he hung out before when he left her and she belongs there with him. In fan fiction, she can be resurrected by a red priest/priestess and fire.

Edited May 5, 2019 by SimoneS

[Wouter]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

What does that have to do with anything?

God I hope that isn't true. 

It would screw up the ending completely.

You stated Jon wouldn't allow innocents to be burned. Given on his conduct with the wildlings, I'm not so certain about that. He, too, does what he feels is needed in times of war. 

Why would that screw up the ending? Getting rid of the entire feudal system overnight wouldn't be realistic (talk about a disney ending!), and if the feudal lords stay then what difference does this "small council" with more power make? It's still very, very far from a parliamentary democracy. Historically, strong kings often means weak noblemen, which was often better for the population in the longer run.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Wouter

[nikma]

Daeneeys' entire storyline was building up to this moment when she will finally bring fire and blood. "Dragons leave no trees"

She will Queen of the Ashes.

Edited May 5, 2019 by nikma

[GraceK]

2 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

But that’s the whole thing, there hasn’t been a build up to her being so corrupted by power that it’s that specifically that causes her to fail or falter. 

Someone who is only interested in power for powers sake, would have attacked King’s Landing with her three dragons when she still had the backing of Dorne, The Iron Islands, and High Garden. She didn’t. 

And I’m sorry but a few throw away lines about her potentially being “mad” like are father don’t count. It’s cheap and lazy. I’m someone who doesn’t expect there to be a throne in the end - and I certainly didn’t expect Dany to be in it on the off chance there was. What I didn’t expect was for someone who has been characterized as not mad, willing to help others, willing to make sacrifices, and willing to learn from her mistakes to suddenly have to be out down like a mad dog. 

Exactly. And she didn’t get “ corrupted by power “. She literally got betrayed, lost her children, lost everyone she cared about, all her support, and suffered horribly. We had to see her be stripped and broken down in order for her to “ go mad”. Thats how out of character it is. If you have to beat someone down so much to shoehorn in that ending, it says a lot. And still, her actions are seen as justified. So it still doesn’t work as you can tell by all the rage going around. 

[Eyes High]

Jaime hitting it and quitting it is terrible. I mean, I guess he’s going to KL to end Cersei once and for all and they both know he’s not coming back, thus the tears, but damn. Way to stomp on Brienne’s pure, innocent heart. Far from the worst thing Jaime has ever done, but oof.

[SimoneS]

4 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Jaime hitting it and quitting it is terrible. I mean, I guess he’s going to KL to end Cersei once and for all and they both know he’s not coming back, thus the tears, but damn. Way to stomp on Brienne’s pure, innocent heart. Far from the worst thing Jaime has ever done, but oof.

On a positive note, Brienne isn't going to KL so she will survive. It isn't like there was ever a shot of a happy ending with Jaime.

Edited May 5, 2019 by SimoneS

[Minneapple]

18 minutes ago, aprilbabe said:

This is what always kept sticking out to me about that leak. Dorgon takes Dany where?  I highly doubt we don't see where they go and Drogon flying off is the end. So clearly there more to the story that hasn't been leaked.

If she's dead, does it matter where he takes her? 

I realllly don't want Jon to resurrect Dany with a kiss. Like that would be dumb on a whole new epic level. Will the cartoon birds then come to braid her hair as Jon carries her off to the castle? 

Jaime never deserved Brienne. She's way too good for him.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Minneapple

[Stallion12]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

What does that have to do with anything?

Jon won't be sitting on the throne either. 

They are all villains and all heroes, as GRRM said, people are a mix of things.

I wasn't rooting for a "winner" of that throne, I was rooting for an ending I could live with, and frankly, I can with live with this one.  NO throne, and with almost all of the warmongers finally dead, no more war, perhaps the hope of peace, especially with Bran able to see pitfalls that could hurt the human race, and avoid them, as head of a council. 

I wasn't rooting for any of the families.  I liked certain people at certain times, not so much at other times.  The Starks did some stupid things, especially Ned.  So did others.

There are no perfect heroes here, there never were.

God I hope that isn't true. 

It would screw up the ending completely.

I'm rooting for it personally, but I could see why others would hate it, and I could see the blowback for. It.

[Stallion12]

3 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

On a positive note, Brienne isn't going to KL so she will survive. It isn't like there was ever a shot of a happy ending with Jaime.

Maybe she ends up with tormond? 😉

[Wouter]

4 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

If she's dead, does it matter where he takes her? 

I realllly don't want Jon to resurrect Dany with a kiss. Like that would be dumb on a whole new epic level. Will the cartoon birds then come to braid her hair as Jon carries her off to the castle? 

Jaime never deserved Brienne. She's way too good for him.

In a world where dead people come back to life, it does matter. Even more so should Bran be the one steering Drogon (protecting Jon and Dany's body).

I suppose that if Jon resurrects her, he would not survive it. And Dany could probably not get any children after that, if that wasn't already the case before that. Though she may not have to worry about a heir, if she has a potential lifespan like Melisandre.

And the feudal system being toppled overnight, with "power to the people", would be Disney on steroids.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Wouter

[BadAssRobinArryn]

2 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I realllly don't want Jon to resurrect Dany with a kiss. Like that would be dumb on a whole new epic level. Will the cartoon birds then come to braid her hair as Jon carries her off to the castle? 

If Jon resurrected her with the kiss of life, that would mean dead Jon, wouldn't it?

[Stallion12]

3 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

If she's dead, does it matter where he takes her? 

I realllly don't want Jon to resurrect Dany with a kiss. Like that would be dumb on a whole new epic level. Will the cartoon birds then come to braid her hair as Jon carries her off to the castle? 

Jaime never deserved Brienne. She's way too good for him.

I think it would fit if john dies doing it.

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, stagmania said:

Viewing Dany as the villain in this scenario requires the characters and audience to be extremely hypocritical. 

Well that depends, if she goes for retribution and sticks to just Cersei, Euron and Qyburn and soldiers in the Red Keep then as  I said earlier she's well within her rights. 

If she just starts going angrily at civilians also; that's another matter; they suffered under Joffery , now under Cersei , Euron and Qyburn.

She's just more of the same; doesn't matter what personal hardships she had, the people don't know them, and add to it the people see her  an invader.

Saving that damn food train and giving it out to the starving looms large now.

[SimoneS]

I don't see how Jon can resurrect Dany or even would after murdering her. A red priest/priestess maybe with Drogon's help could resurrect her, but obviously the story isn't going in that direction.

Edited May 5, 2019 by SimoneS

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, Wouter said:

And the feudal system being toppled overnight, with "power to the people", would be Disney on steroids.

It's obviously not toppled if Gendry is being made a Lord.

What it is doing is ending this idiotic war for power, and it's a beginning of evolving into a new system, and hope for people who weren't lucky enough to be born into power and riches, who, to me, matter every bit as much as those who were.

4 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

If Jon resurrected her with the kiss of life, that would mean dead Jon, wouldn't it?

Well, it would mean an eventual sequel, that's for sure.

groan

Edited May 5, 2019 by Umbelina

[joliefaire]

3 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

If Jon resurrected her with the kiss of life, that would mean dead Jon, wouldn't it?

Only death pays for life.

[YaddaYadda]

If Lyanna's father reacted the same way his grandchildren are reacting, no wonder she ran off to get secretly married (talking about the show).

Edited May 5, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[Stallion12]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

I don't see how Jon can resurrect Dany or even would after murdering her. A red priest/priestess maybe with Drogon's help could resurrect her, but obviously the show isn't going in that direction.

You never know with the writing.

[JanetSnakehole]

Even though Brienne's joy is short-lived, I'm glad she was able to have that experience with Jaime. He knighted her, then was the lucky recipient of her virginity. Given her druthers, I doubt she would have wanted it any other way. 

[Lillith]

10 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Jaime hitting it and quitting it is terrible. I mean, I guess he’s going to KL to end Cersei once and for all and they both know he’s not coming back, thus the tears, but damn. Way to stomp on Brienne’s pure, innocent heart. Far from the worst thing Jaime has ever done, but oof.

I dunno, I take it as two people expressing their love during war. I think Jaime knows he's not going to survive either way. I'll have to watch the whole thing but this seems more of two people taking the one shot they've got to be together rather than a booty call. 

[joliefaire]

2 minutes ago, Lillith said:

I dunno, I take it as two people expressing their love during war. I think Jaime knows he's not going to survive either way. I'll have to watch the whole thing but this seems more of two people taking the one shot they've got to be together rather than a booty call. 

I saw a spoiler where Bronn walks in on them and scoffs at 'Two tall blond toffs, like looking in a mirror.'

LOL, always the romantic, our Bronn.

[Wouter]

2 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I don't see how Jon can resurrect Dany or even would after murdering her. A red priest/priestess maybe with Drogon's help could resurrect her, but obviously the story isn't going in that direction.

Beric did it with Lady Catelyn, in the books. He didn't need a Red Priest(ess), though he did give his own life to do so. So there is a precedent, and the ending has to be the same for characters such as Jon and Dany.

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

It's obviously not toppled if Gendry is being mad a Lord.

What it is doing is ending this idiotic war for power, and it's a beginning of evolving into a new system, and hope for people who weren't lucky enough to be born into power and riches, who, to me, matter every bit as much as those who were.

Dany apparently makes Gendry a lord (which is nice of her).

Dany winning the war would also finally end this entire period of war. With this council, people who weren't lucky enough to be born into power and riches are still in the same situation as with a king or queen. It's the nobles and the rich merchants/bankers that hold power, and they have no say. Aegon V tried hard to bring reforms for the smallfolk, and had to fight his lords over it. Dany has potential to do the same and be more succesful.

[Colorful Mess]

49 minutes ago, Wouter said:

How so? There is pretty clear foreshadowing in the books that Dany and Jon would come together (house of the undying), as indeed happened during S7. They even fought the Others together.

Sure, it was always possible that GRRM could go for "mad Dany" like Aerys: initially promising but he went mad. However, it doesn't look like Dany is going mad like that. She has always been capable of both great violence and great kindness, and has since S1/book 1.

Her capacity for cruelty is scary though, because you never know what will or won't restrain her. The people who experience her cruelty don't really care about her mental state--if she's killing people it doesn't matter whether she's sane or lost her marbles. Killing masses of people for a chair is pretty insane anyway and her war has a confusing mix of contradictory justifications. Furthermore, the fact that she desires and is capable of mass murder and only checks herself when others have to play watchdog means this isn't the best person for Westeros. They need someone who can rule without dragons as a crutch and who isnt going to continue the cycle of destroy-reubuild-destroy that the Targaryens delivered to Westeros during their short 300 years. Targaryens are obsessed with fire, prophecy, and their own hegemony over others. It's time for wolves, who ruled their kingdom in relative stability for 8,000 years. 

As for picking up on the antagonistic stuff in the books, I'll just list a few things that stood out to me. Jon defends the realm and Dany wants to attack it. The king in the North title which emerged in Book 1 is a direct threat to Dany's desire for all 7 kingdoms. "Sweetness" (blue rose) has a heavy negative context in her chapters. The house words, fire and blood (conquest), compared to winter is coming (preparation). Then there is heart that beats blue with corruption in the House of the Undying which beats in time with her own. Ned sanctioned Dany's execution as long as Robert could do it himself--and Jon is told to execute a woman himself. Jorah warns Dany about not trusting strange men too easily. Crows are called liars, tricksy. Quaithe tells Dany to beware of ALL who come for her dragons. Quentyn has similar motives to Jon and uses deception to accomplish his mission. After Dany sees a blue rose in a wall of ice, the "deceptive roses" of House Tyrell become more prominent. Ygritte tells Jon about Bael, a deceiver. Dany thinks about her betrayals and then hears a wolf howl. Ned says he never trusts what a man says on his knees. A romance of two long-lost Targaryens is too sickly sweet for this series. The play on words of a "dance" meaning a war and a "kiss" meaning a sword suggests an adversarial relationship at some point. Dany gains followers while Jon makes friends. Then those three treasons of course. 

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

While these leaks aren't comprehensive, the Stark sisters seem to have remarkably little going on in the final three episodes apart from them being alive at the end.  Which is somewhat of an issue considering the show is going to be leaning really heavily on them when the backlash around how the show's female lead ends things comes.

Maybe Sansa is doing the Lysa Arryn thing: The troops of the north will stay in the north.

Which, if she's also rebuilding and is talking to the IB, would be a wise move.

Between Targs and KL, it never works out for their house or lands.

[SimoneS]

6 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Dany winning the war would also finally end this entire period of war. With this council, people who weren't lucky enough to be born into power and riches are still in the same situation as with a king or queen. It's the nobles and the rich merchants/bankers that hold power, and they have no say. Aegon V tried hard to bring reforms for the smallfolk, and had to fight his lords over it. Dany has potential to do the same and be more succesful.

Nothing has changed for the small folk. None of the people who reportedly will be on the council have ever expressed an iota of concern for their well being. At least, Dany wanted to make changes for the ordinary people and give them say in the decision making. The story started off with a king and council and that is exactly how it ends. If this story says anything, it is that nothing changes. It is impossible to break the wheel, it just keeps rolling over small folk.

Edited May 5, 2019 by SimoneS

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, nikma said:

Tbh I feel proud that apparently I was the only person in this fandom who guessed that Second Dance of Dragons is between Dany and Jon and not Dany and some random extra.

In the fandom.... nah, there were others.

[chrisvee]

Maybe Qyburn turns Dany into a NQ and that’s why Jon has to kill her. It’s either that or a NQ under Q’s control rules the 7 Kingdoms. This is the only way I can make these spoilers work in a way that is bittersweet not bitter.

I am going to go down with this ship. 

Edited May 5, 2019 by chrisvee
Added a comment

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

The Starks' saying, "she is not one of us" is also pathetic. 

Seriously? I’ll wait and see by if so it reminds of: “Anyone who isn’t us is the enemy.” Ugh.

[cambridgeguy]

4 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Dany apparently makes Gendry a lord (which is nice of her).

It's also meaningless if she dies and/or isn't in power at the end of the series.  We haven't heard a thing about the Stormlands in ages - are they as pro-Baratheon as the North is pro-Stark to the point where they'll accept anyone with the right bloodline?  At what point has Gendry shown any ability to rule an entire region?  Being a nice guy and good blacksmith is not enough.

[Bannon]

44 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Long flights though. I guess ravens in every tower. 

Read somewhere that they can cover a couple thousand miles in 2-3 days. Two or three flocks could recon southern Westeros pretty darn quickly. Too bad Bran decided to hole up in an opium den, apparently.

[SeanC]

Looking over these leaks, I’m not seeing where that scroll Sophie talked about comes into play.

[Wouter]

Just now, SeanC said:

Looking over these leaks, I’m not seeing where that scroll Sophie talked about comes into play.

If Friki is right after all, it could still have something to do with Tyrion's supposed betrayal. If not, I have little idea. Maybe it's a scroll in which she is officially granted the north/Winterfell by King/Queen or council or whatever we get as rulers in the end.

[kellog010]

Dany fights with the North risking her people and life and still is looked down on by the Starks. I don't expect happy endings, just and ending that makes sense. I don't buy that Dany goes bloodthirsty for the throne at the expense of the smallfolk. If the leaks for Ep 6 are accurate and Dany is revealed to have been set up, I could live with her death as long as her name is cleared. 

[nikma]

Morale of the story - if you want Iron Throne  you will die at some point

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Nothing has changed for the small folk. None of the people who reportedly will be on the council have ever expressed an iota of concern for their well being. At least, Dany wanted to make changes for the ordinary people and give them say in the decision making. The story started off with a king and council and that is exactly how it ends. If this story says anything, it is that nothing changes. It is impossible to break the wheel, it just keeps rolling over small folk.

Tyrion cares about the small folk, and he always has.  So does the Onion Knight, who was a small folk himself, as Bronn was, and obviously Samwell does, he's married to one.

6 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Looking over these leaks, I’m not seeing where that scroll Sophie talked about comes into play.

Could be anything from that drawing of the dagger that would kill the NK to Jon's parent's wedding documents.  It may be something future, but I'd guess it's something to do with Jon's legitimacy.

[Oscirus]

Kiss of life wasn't established on the show though. Couldve easily been. Show is the show, books are the books

[Sunshinegal]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Tyrion cares about the small folk, and he always has.  So does the Onion Knight, who was a small folk himself, as Bronn was, and obviously Samwell does, he's married to one.

Don't forget that Gendry is smallfolk and has lived like one for most of his life and Arya is one of the few nobles who respects smallfolk, she defended Mycah in season one.

[Stallion12]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Kiss of life wasn't established on the show though. Couldve easily been. Show is the show, books are the books

True, but the ending for the main characters will be the same, it's the secondary that's different.

[shireenbamfatheon]

According to the leaks, Dany doesn't even want Jon to tell his siblings the truth about his parentage.

If it was up to Daenerys, the Starks would never know that their father wasn't unfaithful and that he was, in fact, a hero who sacrificed his own honor to protect the life of an innocent child. Moreover, if it was up to her, Jon would continue to live as a bastard with no proper surname and pretend to be Ned Stark's only act of dishonor, while letting the realm believe that his biological father was a rapist rather than just a lovesick moron. But screw Jon and what it'd do to him, right? Not to mention how people view Ned and Dany's own brother. As long as she gets to pretend that she has the best claim. 

But hey, the Starks are the assholes.

[kellog010]

Tyrion who murdered his father and lover and Bronn a mercenary who cares about gold are not people I would want sitting on a ruling council. 

[Stallion12]

I was thinking, maybe the jon on the wall is sams son with gilly?

[Eyes High]

Is Jon’s true parentage even going to matter very much, except as a plot device to drive a wedge between Jon and Dany? No one beyond Jon, Sam, Dany, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Tyrion and Varys know the truth as of the end of 8x04. 

Jon wouldn’t be Jon if he had any interest in ruling after having to stop the woman he loved from claiming the throne. It seems that no one outside the current 8x04 circle will ever find out the truth, or if they do that it will matter to Jon either way, if he heads into self-imposed exile.